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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Our thoughts tonight are simply with the people of Paris

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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,740
    Is probably unfounded speculation on my part, but was the attack at the Stade de France an attempted assassination on Hollande?
  • CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840
    edited 2015 13
    isam said:

    Hollande has closed french borders

    Country rediscovers what borders are for.

    Very sad but will be a wake-up call to the European elite/wets who think that you can open the gates to millions of third world types and somehow not expect your country to become like the third world.

    If European countries all had proper borders it would of course be far more difficult for terrorists and mass immigration to take place. Very simple.

    Schengen could only work if the outer border of the zone was a proper border. Erm.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788

    Is probably unfounded speculation on my part, but was the attack at the Stade de France an attempted assassination on Hollande?

    Maybe not directly but it could be just a statement.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @OllyT

    'Can't find adequate words of sympathy for those caught up in this. I suspect every secular western democracy with a significant Islamic minority is destined to have major problems over the coming years. Sadly I can also see the far right rising in each of these countries as well as a reaction to the fear. Didn't it occur to any of our politicians that allowing the mass immigration of people with medieval, intolerant, mysoginist, homophobic and anti-western beliefs into our countries wasn't going to end well? '


    And Merkel has just invited another million + to come to Europe with zero security vetting.

    .

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    So no statement of support for France from Merkel yet? Very strange that she would keep quiet, unless she's gone into a funk.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750

    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    notme said:

    AndyJS said:

    One of the purposes of this attack is probably to provoke a reaction leading to a Le Pen win in the presidential election.

    I doubt that is a purpose, why?? It would be a consequence, but not a purpose unless you are a false flag believer. I doubt ISIS could care less about the internal politics of France.
    If they believe her election would lead to maximum chaos and unrest in the country, they would support that outcome, probably.
    I doubt ISIS give a rat's ass who is in charge of the European powers, Cameron, Le Pen, Corbyn, Merkel etc.
    Do ISIS have any coherent leadership or strategy? It does not seem to be leading them anywhere.

    Now Corbyn is in the Privy Council and will have had told to him the true state of the world, what will he say?
    Well I doubt it will be what Mr Rentoul posted on Twitter !
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,139
    Speedy said:

    HYUFD said:
    Action-Reaction.
    Indeed and Le Pen was already top in a poll today on round 1 that will only increase
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    I refuse to believe that ISIS will win this war. We simply can't let them, and if all the European countries + America unite together, I'm sure we can win this war.

    The kernel of the failure of IS as a directed and effective unit and movement is already in evidence. Much of it will be self inflicted.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    isam said:

    How's that channel tunnel?

    Shut?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited 2015 13
    Floater said:

    Richard - this is nothing less than a clash of "civilizations" - to compare the current situation to the IRA is frankly laughable.

    The IRA were more sophisticated. They almost managed to bump off the UK government. They also lobbed mortars at No 10.

    Look, I've been one of those arguing for us not to under-estimate the threat of terrorist attacks, arguing against people who have complacently said that the risk is not a big deal. But equally, we need to keep a sense of perspective. This is not the Blitz.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    TGOHF said:

    watford30 said:

    watford30 said:

    That's the end of Schengen.

    The French Army are mobilising.

    I agree. I am not sure to what extent Schengen is directly relevant but this on top of the clear change in the whole picture of mass movements of ultimately millions of people shows it is a busted flush.

    On a pedantic point I am not sure 'mobilising' is the right word, unless the French are indeed calling up reservists.
    You can mobilise the regulars, linguistically speaking; not all regularly are war-ready at any particular time.
    The Gendarmerie are a paramilitary force. They'll likely be reinforced with regular troops at sensitive sites.
    When I was in Paris a few weeks ago, I noticed a much more visible Police presence at Gare du Nord and other touristy places.
    Christian Fraser ‏@ChristianFraser 10m10 minutes ago
    Paris was already at highest level of alert. The French army guarding train stations, synagogues, tourist sites. Dreading the next attack/s
    I also noticed they were looking at me very closely.
    Just to lighten things. Was it your shoes?
    Alas no, they were very sober shoes.

    Judging by what I'm reading on twitter, I'm likely to get deported along with every other Muslim in the country, so enjoy my shoes whilst you can.
    Whatever tonight is TSE - it ain't about you - give it a fucking rest eh ?
    Glad you said it instead of me... Amazing
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    AndyJS said:

    This is a huge attack. Multiple people, clearly a large network. How can this happen ?

    It's concerning they could do this without being infiltrated by the security services or having their communications hacked.
    Indeed - A large and coordinated attack on this scale should not have escaped the attention of the French security services. French MI5 asleep at the wheel?
    I did not particularly want to raise this at this moment, but it is a fair question.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    I refuse to believe that ISIS will win this war. We simply can't let them, and if all the European countries + America unite together, I'm sure we can win this war.

    Of course ISIS can't win in Europe. The question is just how much serious disintegration of the Middle East they can cause.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    God bless them

    Paris taxi drivers have turned off meters and are giving people rides home for free tonight reports @FRANCE24 . #ParisAttacks
    11:30 PM - 13 Nov 2015
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    TGOHF said:

    watford30 said:

    watford30 said:

    That's the end of Schengen.

    The French Army are mobilising.

    I agree. I am not sure to what extent Schengen is directly relevant but this on top of the clear change in the whole picture of mass movements of ultimately millions of people shows it is a busted flush.

    On a pedantic point I am not sure 'mobilising' is the right word, unless the French are indeed calling up reservists.
    You can mobilise the regulars, linguistically speaking; not all regularly are war-ready at any particular time.
    The Gendarmerie are a paramilitary force. They'll likely be reinforced with regular troops at sensitive sites.
    When I was in Paris a few weeks ago, I noticed a much more visible Police presence at Gare du Nord and other touristy places.
    Christian Fraser ‏@ChristianFraser 10m10 minutes ago
    Paris was already at highest level of alert. The French army guarding train stations, synagogues, tourist sites. Dreading the next attack/s
    I also noticed they were looking at me very closely.
    Just to lighten things. Was it your shoes?
    Alas no, they were very sober shoes.

    Judging by what I'm reading on twitter, I'm likely to get deported along with every other Muslim in the country, so enjoy my shoes whilst you can.
    Whatever tonight is TSE - it ain't about you - give it a fucking rest eh ?
    and you.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited 2015 13
    I wonder how many Israelis/Jewish are in the concert hall that is being stormed?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Stepped away for two hours. Didn't realise how bad things were, 100 people being held hostage? Terrible. My thoughts are with the French tonight.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Ongoing assault on Concert Hall. GIGN?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    Richard - this is nothing less than a clash of "civilizations" - to compare the current situation to the IRA is frankly laughable.
    No he is right. It is certainly a big issue and must be faced.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548
    edited 2015 13

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    It's not - yet. Though I am struggling to remember any IRA attack at any point during the Troubles when there were 6 attacks in the same day in London or any other city on civilian targets.

    But I have no doubt that IS and those like them do hate and would like to destroy Western civilization, indeed any sort of civilization at all. What do you think the destruction of Palmyra is about, for instance? Or the attacks on Charlie Hebdo?

    The sooner and the harder we fight back, the greater our chances of making sure this does not get any worse.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,184
    Cyclefree said:

    A wicked, surreal night. Evil literally walking through the streets of one of the world's greatest cities. All strength to France and the French people. Endure and overcome. There is no other choice.


    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    With respect, Richard, your own perspective may need adjusting. The IRA bombers weren't accompanied by millions of refugees/migrants all intent on setting up home in the UK, which Europe is now facing.

    Paradoxically, the present atrocities may make it easier for the European public to defend their civilisation against the peaceful invasion.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.

    I thought Schengen included provision for emergency closures anyway?

    However, I can see that there might be a practical problem, in that they've probably dismantled a lot of the organisation and physical facilities.
  • CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840
    edited 2015 13

    The sea is our very good friend. Border controls too. Schengen is dead.

    Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.
    Of course. That is how ingrained the mix of wet-lefty-liberal mentality together with the European integration dream is with the majority on the continent (and many here in Britain). Our leaders either need to get real - NOW - or we will face collapse as a civilizaton.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    There are more Moslems in France than in any other European country. The dynamics of their arrival there have very little to do with the EU and a lot to do with French history.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Y0kel said:

    I refuse to believe that ISIS will win this war. We simply can't let them, and if all the European countries + America unite together, I'm sure we can win this war.

    The kernel of the failure of IS as a directed and effective unit and movement is already in evidence. Much of it will be self inflicted.
    I hope so. At this stage I feel like we should be closing our borders too, it feels like we've been unbelievably lucky not to have an ISIS related attack here.

    But why France? Why does do these attacks keep happening there?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    The sea is our very good friend. Border controls too. Schengen is dead.

    Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.
    Of course. That is how ingrained the mix of wet-lefty-liberal mentality together with the European integration dream is with the majority on the continent (and many here in Britain). Our leaders either need to get real - NOW - or we will face collapse as a civilizaton.
    We (the West) need to grow a backbone and deal with IS in Syria and Iraq.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 13

    Is probably unfounded speculation on my part, but was the attack at the Stade de France an attempted assassination on Hollande?

    It's too big to be an assassination attempt, and many innocent french have been killed.
    However a frenchman tried to kill him during a 14th July parade at a time where there were rumours of a military coup to depose him, Hollande is very unpopular so many frenchmen wouldn't mind, but killing lots of innocent people just to get him is not in the style of french nationalist circles.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    MikeK said:

    So no statement of support for France from Merkel yet? Very strange that she would keep quiet, unless she's gone into a funk.

    Merkel's probably 500 feet under Berlin.
  • CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840
    RobD said:

    The sea is our very good friend. Border controls too. Schengen is dead.

    Interesting that on France 24 the commentators are still talking about how Hollande will have trouble closing the borders because of Schengen. They seem totally divorced from the reality of what is happening.
    Of course. That is how ingrained the mix of wet-lefty-liberal mentality together with the European integration dream is with the majority on the continent (and many here in Britain). Our leaders either need to get real - NOW - or we will face collapse as a civilizaton.
    We (the West) need to grow a backbone and deal with IS in Syria and Iraq.
    Yes... and sort out our immigration policy.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    There are more Moslems in France than in any other European country. The dynamics of their arrival there have very little to do with the EU and a lot to do with French history.

    An interesting point is that no-one knows how many Muslims are in France because it's forbidden to ask religious questions in censuses. There are just rough estimates.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,740
    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    Y0kel said:

    Scott_P said:

    Police may now be storming Bataclan

    If they are they've gone for the least worst option, if there is line up killing going on, which is a quick strike. I just fear that the most opportune timing moment of 2-3 hours has passed. If so the complications multiply.

    Active measures units will often have a database of key buildings that not includes floor plans but have also been surveyed. I have no doubts whatsoever the French have one, its really a question of whether they have one for that theatre. Priceless if they do.

    It will be interesting to see the weapon source and whether some dodge-pot in the Benelux region was involved somewhere down the line.

    Slackbladder, you could do this with less than a dozen shooters and a few dumbos with the desire to press the big button on their chest.
    Yes you are right about the frighteningly small bunch that is needed for this. There will be a trail back to somewhere but it will be a thin one.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

    How many mass shootings have been stopped as someone has a concealed weapon?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    MikeK said:

    So no statement of support for France from Merkel yet? Very strange that she would keep quiet, unless she's gone into a funk.

    Can you just begin to imagine the fallout if one or more of these guys has entered France in the last months weeks and days undercover of the migrants crisis.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

    Bell End.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    RobD said:

    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

    How many mass shootings have been stopped as someone has a concealed weapon?
    None or one.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842

    Y0kel said:

    I refuse to believe that ISIS will win this war. We simply can't let them, and if all the European countries + America unite together, I'm sure we can win this war.

    The kernel of the failure of IS as a directed and effective unit and movement is already in evidence. Much of it will be self inflicted.
    I hope so. At this stage I feel like we should be closing our borders too, it feels like we've been unbelievably lucky not to have an ISIS related attack here.

    But why France? Why does do these attacks keep happening there?

    Very, very big, long-established Moslem population with close links to North Africa and Middle East. A lot of disaffected second and third generation young men. Lots of places to hide.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,740
    MikeK said:

    So no statement of support for France from Merkel yet? Very strange that she would keep quiet, unless she's gone into a funk.

    She came out with a statement an hour ago

    BERLIN: German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she was "profoundly shocked" by a string of deadly attacks in Paris Friday that left at least 39 people dead.

    "I am profoundly shocked by the news and images from Paris. At this time, my thoughts are with the victims of these apparently terrorist attacks, and with their families and all residents of Paris," Merkel said in a statement.

    http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/profoundly-shocked-by-paris-terrorist-attacks-angela-merkel-1243228
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited 2015 13
    Moses_ said:

    MikeK said:

    So no statement of support for France from Merkel yet? Very strange that she would keep quiet, unless she's gone into a funk.

    Can you just begin to imagine the fallout if one or more of these guys has entered France in the last months weeks and days undercover of the migrants crisis.
    Now that will have big long lasting implications as the blame can be straightly followed back to Berlin.

    Goodnight.

    Let's hope no other is killed tonight.
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903
    AndyJS said:

    There are more Moslems in France than in any other European country. The dynamics of their arrival there have very little to do with the EU and a lot to do with French history.

    An interesting point is that no-one knows how many Muslims are in France because it's forbidden to ask religious questions in censuses. There are just rough estimates.
    Yes, France is a secular nation. But its right to point out the dynamics of France's Muslim population has nothing to do with the EU. Like many countries France has a colonial history.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,139
    Julian Assande misreads the mood

    At least 39 dead in French terror attacks this evening. France has closed borders. US, UK, France fed ISIS. Not so funny now, is it?@wikileaks
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,740
    RobD said:

    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

    How many mass shootings have been stopped as someone has a concealed weapon?
    I can't recall any
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Merkel

    She is deeply shaken by the attacks. Sky news.

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    AndyJS said:

    This is a huge attack. Multiple people, clearly a large network. How can this happen ?

    It's concerning they could do this without being infiltrated by the security services or having their communications hacked.
    On the basis of fhis let the intelligence services have every single thing they bloody well need.
    I don't understand how objections would survive but they will, from the usual suspects.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    HYUFD said:

    Julian Assande misreads the mood

    At least 39 dead in French terror attacks this evening. France has closed borders. US, UK, France fed ISIS. Not so funny now, is it?@wikileaks

    More of a bell end than Gingrich ;)
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788

    RobD said:

    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

    How many mass shootings have been stopped as someone has a concealed weapon?
    I can't recall any
    It be fair if they were stopped, then they never became a mass shooting in the first place....but i agree with the point
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    edited 2015 13
    Esquire MagazineVerified account
    @esquire
    UPDATE: French police are asking people to not report/tweet on the situation around Bataclan right now:

    The Sun has changed its front page, the earlier flippant comment on the death by drone has gone.
  • Spare a thought for the police/special forces tasked with storming that theatre, if that is indeed underway. Having to do it at such short notice, probably with vague intelligence, against terrorists hopped up on adrenaline from the earlier attack. It will be a very grim night ahead, I fear.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    RobD said:

    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

    How many mass shootings have been stopped as someone has a concealed weapon?
    I can't recall any
    It be fair if they were stopped, then they never became a mass shooting in the first place....but i agree with the point
    Wouldn't it be obvious a mass shooting was about to start though? Body armour, round for machine guns etc?
  • flightpath01flightpath01 Posts: 4,903

    MikeK said:

    So no statement of support for France from Merkel yet? Very strange that she would keep quiet, unless she's gone into a funk.

    She came out with a statement an hour ago

    BERLIN: German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she was "profoundly shocked" by a string of deadly attacks in Paris Friday that left at least 39 people dead.

    "I am profoundly shocked by the news and images from Paris. At this time, my thoughts are with the victims of these apparently terrorist attacks, and with their families and all residents of Paris," Merkel said in a statement.

    http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/profoundly-shocked-by-paris-terrorist-attacks-angela-merkel-1243228
    Thank you for pointing that out. Clearly the usual suspects are already rowing in with the usual insinuations.
    I'll go with the thread header and just feel plain sickened and hope for the best for Paris and the French .
    I'll leave all the frenzy making to others.
    Thank you and goodnight.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Having a significant fast growing minority of an insurgent religion in a country leads to this. When will people accept it and deal with it? What will it take?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739

    AndyJS said:

    This is a huge attack. Multiple people, clearly a large network. How can this happen ?

    It's concerning they could do this without being infiltrated by the security services or having their communications hacked.
    On the basis of fhis let the intelligence services have every single thing they bloody well need.
    I don't understand how objections would survive but they will, from the usual suspects.
    Perhaps it would help if you realised that the French already have the snooping laws you are trying to support in the UK and it has made not a blind bit of difference. The French authorities have far more power over the population than we have in the UK and what good has that done them?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865

    Floater said:

    Richard - this is nothing less than a clash of "civilizations" - to compare the current situation to the IRA is frankly laughable.

    The IRA were more sophisticated. They almost managed to bump off the UK government. They also lobbed mortars at No 10.

    Look, I've been one of those arguing for us not to under-estimate the threat of terrorist attacks, arguing against people who have complacently said that the risk is not a big deal. But equally, we need to keep a sense of perspective. This is not the Blitz.
    Richard
    They are killing the children of French parents tonight. They will be killing the children of British parents next on the streets of London. That's the prospective and that is why we have to band together , hunt these vermin down and eradicate them permanently.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Pong said:

    I'm a prick.

    I've just placed a large bet based on the possible implications of this.

    Sorry France.

    Donation to children in need is on its way. Dunno why, but it seems appropriate.

    Sorry again.

    RIP.

    Who was making the book?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Moses_ said:

    Merkel

    She is deeply shaken by the attacks. Sky news.

    So still no statement directly from her.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Reuters
    Attackers killed in concert hall
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @CNBCnow: BREAKING: French TV reports that the hostage situation at the Paris concert hall is over and two attackers killed. https://t.co/pJRBJMrixA
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Moses_ said:

    Reuters
    Attackers killed in concert hall

    Is it over now?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Pong said:

    I'm a prick.

    I've just placed a large bet based on the possible implications of this.

    Sorry France.

    Donation to children in need is on its way. Dunno why, but it seems appropriate.

    Sorry again.

    RIP.

    Who was making the book?
    I'm guessing it was the referendum result. The odds have been taken down

    The theatre terrorists have been killed apparently
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    isam said:

    Pong said:

    I'm a prick.

    I've just placed a large bet based on the possible implications of this.

    Sorry France.

    Donation to children in need is on its way. Dunno why, but it seems appropriate.

    Sorry again.

    RIP.

    Shades of cantor index scum on 9/11, although it crossed my mind...
    One of my first posts on PB was in the hours after Michael Jackson's death.

    Partybets were taking wagers on how many of his summer concerts would go ahead. IIRC, "No concerts" was available @ 7/2. It would have been a little rude not to...

    I probably should be a little more careful moralising about John Rentoul's tweets in future.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,354
    Moses_ said:

    Reuters
    Attackers killed in concert hall

    Good.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    MikeK said:

    Moses_ said:

    Merkel

    She is deeply shaken by the attacks. Sky news.

    So still no statement directly from her.
    Nein...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207

    Floater said:

    Richard - this is nothing less than a clash of "civilizations" - to compare the current situation to the IRA is frankly laughable.

    The IRA were more sophisticated. They almost managed to bump off the UK government. They also lobbed mortars at No 10.

    Look, I've been one of those arguing for us not to under-estimate the threat of terrorist attacks, arguing against people who have complacently said that the risk is not a big deal. But equally, we need to keep a sense of perspective. This is not the Blitz.
    You are very, very naive - there is a global problem and has been for years.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,302
    Sky - Bataclan op over.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    DavidL said:

    Moses_ said:

    Reuters
    Attackers killed in concert hall

    Good.
    How many?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842

    Spare a thought for the police/special forces tasked with storming that theatre, if that is indeed underway. Having to do it at such short notice, probably with vague intelligence, against terrorists hopped up on adrenaline from the earlier attack. It will be a very grim night ahead, I fear.

    It'll be more than adrenaline.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    Theatre cleared by French security forces.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited 2015 13
    Pong said:

    isam said:

    Pong said:

    I'm a prick.

    I've just placed a large bet based on the possible implications of this.

    Sorry France.

    Donation to children in need is on its way. Dunno why, but it seems appropriate.

    Sorry again.

    RIP.

    Shades of cantor index scum on 9/11, although it crossed my mind...
    One of my first posts on PB was in the hours after Michael Jackson's death.

    Partybets were taking wagers on how many of his summer concerts would go ahead. IIRC, "No concerts" was available @ 7/2. It would have been a little rude not to...

    I probably should be a little more careful moralising about John Rentoul's tweets in future.
    Oddschecker blue on remain 45-50 and 50-55... Life goes on it seems
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,018

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    This is substantially more deadly than anything the IRA did.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    watford30 said:

    Theatre cleared by French security forces.

    Two terrorists reportedly killed as security forces operation continues at Bataclan.
    Henry Samuel reports:
    Quote
    "Apocalypptic" scenes inside the Bataclan, where assailants attacked the crowd with grenades leaving many dead, say police. Two gunmen have been killed in police raid, but the death toll likely to rise steeply.

    Sounds horrible.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Moses_ said:

    MikeK said:

    Moses_ said:

    Merkel

    She is deeply shaken by the attacks. Sky news.

    So still no statement directly from her.
    Nein...
    TSE pointed out some comments tonight up thread. Sky News says she was shaken by the attacks.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    At least the French police dont mess around at all.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited 2015 14

    Y0kel said:

    I refuse to believe that ISIS will win this war. We simply can't let them, and if all the European countries + America unite together, I'm sure we can win this war.

    The kernel of the failure of IS as a directed and effective unit and movement is already in evidence. Much of it will be self inflicted.
    I hope so. At this stage I feel like we should be closing our borders too, it feels like we've been unbelievably lucky not to have an ISIS related attack here.

    But why France? Why does do these attacks keep happening there?
    Various reasons:

    Highly radicalised population with a big population to act as a support base. Large number of criminal Islamic youth, land borders with other locations in Europe, history via Algeria and Tunisia in particular but large parts of the Middle East overall, some very severe legal and procedural restrictions on anti terrorism operations and tools, plus there has been a bleed of information that made its way to Islamists, and the basic unpredictability to stop every attack going.

    The French intelligence services are no slouches, they already have a short list on this one.

    Way back after Charlie Hebdo I posted on here on some shortcomings in the intelligence jigsaw picture in France that, if in place, accelerates knowledge with the ability to predict and take action. The UK is a bit better off but nowhere near enough to be complacent.

    Operation largely complete at the theatre, two perpetrators dead. Civilian casualties unknown. They may have pulled off a decent job.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,139
    edited 2015 14
    RobD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Julian Assande misreads the mood

    At least 39 dead in French terror attacks this evening. France has closed borders. US, UK, France fed ISIS. Not so funny now, is it?@wikileaks

    More of a bell end than Gingrich ;)
    Yes about time he faced the music, meanwhile in the last half hour my twitter feed has had messages from Katie Price, Richard Branson, Donald Trump, Garry Kasparov, Jenson Button, Emma Watson, Piers Morgan, John McDonnell, Rio Ferdinand, Alexis Tsipras, Newt Gingrich, Justin Trudeau, Jack Whitehall, Ellen DeGeneres, Russell Crowe, John McCain, Angus Robertson, Arnold Schwarzanneger, Goldie Hawn and Danny Cipriani all on the same subject of the events in Paris. The one exception Paris Hilton who tweeted 'Love this glam by @EtienneOrtega! He is the best!'
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Floater said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    Richard - this is nothing less than a clash of "civilizations" - to compare the current situation to the IRA is frankly laughable.
    We might be better placed tomorrow to make such judgments.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    This is substantially more deadly than anything the IRA did.
    The IRA didn't go for the suicide option either. They weren't looking to get killed.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Moses_ said:

    Richard
    They are killing the children of French parents tonight. They will be killing the children of British parents next on the streets of London. That's the prospective and that is why we have to band together , hunt these vermin down and eradicate them permanently.

    I agree. When did I ever say otherwise? And we also need good intelligence, and as effective an anti-radicalisation programme as we can manage, and well-thought out and executed interventions in places like Syria and Iraq, and we need very good gun control (luckily we have that in the UK). That way we can reduce, though never eliminate, the risk.

    In addition, the continental EU countries need to do something about border controls and Schengen - although I very much doubt if tonight's events are in any direct way related to the migrant crisis.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,740
    @itvnews: Eagles of Death - band due to play at Bataclan in #Paris where hostages have been taken - are still unaccounted for http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-11-13/at-least-40-dead-in-attacks-around-paris/
  • CornishBlueCornishBlue Posts: 840

    AndyJS said:

    This is a huge attack. Multiple people, clearly a large network. How can this happen ?

    It's concerning they could do this without being infiltrated by the security services or having their communications hacked.
    On the basis of fhis let the intelligence services have every single thing they bloody well need.
    I don't understand how objections would survive but they will, from the usual suspects.
    Perhaps it would help if you realised that the French already have the snooping laws you are trying to support in the UK and it has made not a blind bit of difference. The French authorities have far more power over the population than we have in the UK and what good has that done them?
    Well, none, because ultimately the problem isn't about how much snooping is going on, but the on-going mass immigration of people who not only don't integrate with us, but actively hate us.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    England vs France on Tuesday night looks like being a non runner
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 18,018

    Is probably unfounded speculation on my part, but was the attack at the Stade de France an attempted assassination on Hollande?

    How widely known is it usually as to whether a top level individual will attend a given event, a few days beforehand?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,641

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    This is substantially more deadly than anything the IRA did.
    Worst single outrage during the Troubles was Omagh, 1998 - 29 dead.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    This is substantially more deadly than anything the IRA did.
    Worst single outrage during the Troubles was Omagh, 1998 - 29 dead.
    That was one big bomb, wasn't it. I can't recall an IRA attack where multiple targets are hit simultaneously.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    police say death toll will rise steeply.

    Still , like the troubles eh?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Floater said:

    Floater said:

    Richard - this is nothing less than a clash of "civilizations" - to compare the current situation to the IRA is frankly laughable.

    The IRA were more sophisticated. They almost managed to bump off the UK government. They also lobbed mortars at No 10.

    Look, I've been one of those arguing for us not to under-estimate the threat of terrorist attacks, arguing against people who have complacently said that the risk is not a big deal. But equally, we need to keep a sense of perspective. This is not the Blitz.
    You are very, very naive - there is a global problem and has been for years.
    I'm naive? LOL!
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    RobD said:

    @newtgingrich: Imagine a theater with 10 or 15 citizens with concealed carry permits. We live in an age when evil men have to be killed by good people

    How many mass shootings have been stopped as someone has a concealed weapon?
    I can't recall any
    I point you to Israel.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,233
    Suspect the death toll is going to rise quite a bit. Police say it is 'very messy' inside the theatre. Ugh..
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    I've been watching a film all evening. Only just caught up on the news.

    I can't believe it.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    X

    @itvnews: Eagles of Death - band due to play at Bataclan in #Paris where hostages have been taken - are still unaccounted for http://www.itv.com/news/story/2015-11-13/at-least-40-dead-in-attacks-around-paris/

    Have a cherry cola

    https://twitter.com/933theplanet/status/665317809405071360
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @AliM27_: Reports and photo evidence that the 'Jungle' refugee camp in #Calais has been set on fire https://t.co/KUA20i0fwL
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    I’m impressed by the French. They didn’t hang about once the attacks kicked off.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    They threw explosives at hostages..... I have no words
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    I refuse to believe that ISIS will win this war. We simply can't let them, and if all the European countries + America unite together, I'm sure we can win this war.

    This is not just a northern hemisphere issue
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,740
    edited 2015 14
    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - but also fight back and defeat this evil. Not just endure it. Long past the time for us to stoically endure this evil. We need to hit back hard and defeat it. I'm not prepared to let European civilization go down without a fight.

    Now now, keep a sense of perspective! This is a very nasty set of terrorist attacks, like the IRA bombings of the 70s and 80s, but it's not the end of civilisation.
    This is substantially more deadly than anything the IRA did.
    Worst single outrage during the Troubles was Omagh, 1998 - 29 dead.
    That was one big bomb, wasn't it. I can't recall an IRA attack where multiple targets are hit simultaneously.
    When they assassinated Lord Mountbatten they also killed a lot of British soldiers the same day in a separate incident is the one I recall.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,548

    Moses_ said:

    Richard
    They are killing the children of French parents tonight. They will be killing the children of British parents next on the streets of London. That's the prospective and that is why we have to band together , hunt these vermin down and eradicate them permanently.

    I agree. When did I ever say otherwise? And we also need good intelligence, and as effective an anti-radicalisation programme as we can manage, and well-thought out and executed interventions in places like Syria and Iraq, and we need very good gun control (luckily we have that in the UK). That way we can reduce, though never eliminate, the risk.

    In addition, the continental EU countries need to do something about border controls and Schengen - although I very much doubt if tonight's events are in any direct way related to the migrant crisis.

    You miss out the most important thing which is not to let into Europe people from war torn and extremist countries or from groups prone to extremism.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    AndyJS said:

    OllyT said:

    Can't find adequate words of sympathy for those caught up in this. I suspect every secular western democracy with a significant Islamic minority is destined to have major problems over the coming years. Sadly I can also see the far right rising in each of these countries as well as a reaction to the fear. Didn't it occur to any of our politicians that allowing the mass immigration of people with medieval, intolerant, mysoginist, homophobic and anti-western beliefs into our countries wasn't going to end well?

    I think the UK, Canada and the USA will be okay. The BNP have completely disintegrated here for example. The problem is mainland European countries.
    Our government (by and large) has a much better grip on the migration crisis than mainland European countries.
This discussion has been closed.