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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May sends a strong reminder that she’s still in the

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  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I expect that Theresa May will be quite happy with these headlines. She's managed to upstage Boris Johnson, who supposedly delivered his best speech ever yesterday. She's put a marker in folk memory that she's anti-immigration.

    So when she actually does run in a few years' time she won't need to mention this again and can run on more inspirational stuff because she will generally be assumed to be "sound" on immigration (those that aren't persuaded about this aren't persuadable).

    Mind you, is the stage in Manchester on an incline or is she practising snowboarding in that Times picture?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given we're all talking Uber, can I share an experience I had in San Francisco earlier this year. I had dinner at a friend's house near Candlestick Park (which is a pretty rundown, working class area). Historically, getting a cab there was incredibly difficult, and public transport (the bus) was infrequent.

    Anyway: at the end of dinner, I got out my phone and pressed the button for an Uber.

    Instead of ordering an UberX, as I normally do, I found myself accidentally ordering an UberPop.

    What is UberPop? It's a $7 flat fee service from anywhere in San Francisco to anywhere else. But there's a rub. It's not a direct run. The car probably has a passenger or two in when you get in, and then delivers one of them, and picks up another along the way. In other words, they use complicated algorithims to dynamically route cars.

    In the car with me for my journey were two construction workers, who were working on the night shift of some large project. They told me that before UberX they walked to the bus stop, waited for it, then got the bus to the subway stop before transferring. At 11pm at night, this could be an hour and 20 to get to work. Now it took them 20 to 25 minutes, and cost them just $7. (The same price as public transport.)

    Uber for me was just a way of saving money and getting a car when I needed it. For these guys, Uber had literally changed their lives.

    And when I've used it (in SF) it has been very good.

    There is clearly demand for its services.

    But that doesn't put it above the law, above taxation, above doing business in a moral and sustainable way.
    I don't believe that Uber is running roughshod over laws in the UK. The only possible argument you could make is that they be required to do "fixed fares", to bring them into line with minicabs.

    What TFL proposes (5 minute cooldown between rides, not being allowed to show cars on a map) are ultimately just attempts to hobble competition.

    (I can't believe they make money in the UK - or anywhere else - so I'm not sure the taxation point is currently real.)
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.

    Indeed - but he is a Tory. The point being that the claim May has been attacked solely by metropolitan lefties is demonstrably false.

    I imagine most of the right wing attacks on May have been by supporters of her potential leadership rivals however rather than due to the substance of her speech.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Knowing your way around a place and being able to read maps are not redundant even in the days of satnavs, IMO.

    Sat Navs can be very unreliable, in my experience.
    Good ones aren't. There's just a lot of varied quality. But I've never really understood being able to read maps as a skill. Other than knowing Ordnance Survey markings, it's a pretty intuitive thing to be able to do.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited 2015 07

    One person I'd like to see stand for the leadership is Ruth Davidson, she's impressive.

    She needs to show she can make real progress in Scotland first - such as adding more MSPs and challenging SLAB for 2nd place. There are no major signs of her building a substantial membership base and organisation - next May will be a key test.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    antifrank said:

    I expect that Theresa May will be quite happy with these headlines. She's managed to upstage Boris Johnson, who supposedly delivered his best speech ever yesterday. She's put a marker in folk memory that she's anti-immigration.

    So when she actually does run in a few years' time she won't need to mention this again and can run on more inspirational stuff because she will generally be assumed to be "sound" on immigration (those that aren't persuaded about this aren't persuadable).

    Mind you, is the stage in Manchester on an incline or is she practising snowboarding in that Times picture?

    May's Achilles heel is her record. She took credit for falls in immigration, but blames the LibDems for rises. My guess is that her opponents may not be shy in pointing this out.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given we're all talking Uber, can I share an experience I had in San Francisco earlier this year. I had dinner at a friend's house near Candlestick Park (which is a pretty rundown, working class area). Historically, getting a cab there was incredibly difficult, and public transport (the bus) was infrequent.

    Anyway: at the end of dinner, I got out my phone and pressed the button for an Uber.

    Instead of ordering an UberX, as I normally do, I found myself accidentally ordering an UberPop.

    What is UberPop? It's a $7 flat fee service from anywhere in San Francisco to anywhere else. But there's a rub. It's not a direct run. The car probably has a passenger or two in when you get in, and then delivers one of them, and picks up another along the way. In other words, they use complicated algorithims to dynamically route cars.

    In the car with me for my journey were two construction workers, who were working on the night shift of some large project. They told me that before UberX they walked to the bus stop, waited for it, then got the bus to the subway stop before transferring. At 11pm at night, this could be an hour and 20 to get to work. Now it took them 20 to 25 minutes, and cost them just $7. (The same price as public transport.)

    Uber for me was just a way of saving money and getting a car when I needed it. For these guys, Uber had literally changed their lives.

    And when I've used it (in SF) it has been very good.

    There is clearly demand for its services.

    But that doesn't put it above the law, above taxation, above doing business in a moral and sustainable way.
    I don't believe that Uber is running roughshod over laws in the UK. The only possible argument you could make is that they be required to do "fixed fares", to bring them into line with minicabs.

    What TFL proposes (5 minute cooldown between rides, not being allowed to show cars on a map) are ultimately just attempts to hobble competition.

    (I can't believe they make money in the UK - or anywhere else - so I'm not sure the taxation point is currently real.)
    I agree TFL's proposals are self-interested rubbish.

    For me the issue is around security, insurance and the treatment of drivers as employees rather than contractors. I'm willing to bet they don't pay social security contributions, for instance, on drivers' earnings.

    Fundamentally if someone's primary source of income is through Uber then they are an employee.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.

    Indeed - but he is a Tory. The point being that the claim May has been attacked solely by metropolitan lefties is demonstrably false.

    No one has argued that. Kirkup is also on the right, but he's still one of the metropolitan liberal types.

    Look, I don't have a problem with people taking a pro-high immigration position and arguing their case. What I detest is the way such people call ANY argument towards a low immigration position as "divisive" and "inflammatory". They are trying to silence the other side of the debate, and then act as if they are being morally superior by doing it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Knowing your way around a place and being able to read maps are not redundant even in the days of satnavs, IMO.

    Sat Navs can be very unreliable, in my experience.

    My SatNav (a Garmin) gets you to the vicinity, but very rarely the actual address. It seems to believe we live in an alley about 100 yards from our actual house!

    In my case, it's always trying to get me onto motorways. If you switch off the motorway function, it comes up with some incredibly convoluted routes.

    A further issue is that map-reading and navigation helps to keep one's mind active.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Knowing your way around a place and being able to read maps are not redundant even in the days of satnavs, IMO.

    Sat Navs can be very unreliable, in my experience.
    In my experience, half the problems are the users. A classic example is someone going down the in sliproad off a roundabout as the SatNav said "take next left" a few seconds too early, and he took the turn without looking.

    I'm fairly at home with maps, and I tend to rely on the map on screen rather than the spoken directions.

    Sat Navs do not remove the need for common sense on the part of the user.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    One person I'd like to see stand for the leadership is Ruth Davidson, she's impressive.

    She needs to show she can make real progress in Scotland first - such as adding more MSPs and challenging SLAB for 2nd place. There are no major signs of her building a substantial membership base and organisation - next May will be a key test.
    Her moving to Westminster would also show that the Tories see Scotland as a second rate country like SLAB, it would reinforce everything the SNP say about the unionist parties. Davidson is better deployed in Scotland rebuilding the party there while SLAB are weak and the SNP have serious governance issues.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    JEO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.

    Indeed - but he is a Tory. The point being that the claim May has been attacked solely by metropolitan lefties is demonstrably false.

    No one has argued that. Kirkup is also on the right, but he's still one of the metropolitan liberal types.

    Look, I don't have a problem with people taking a pro-high immigration position and arguing their case. What I detest is the way such people call ANY argument towards a low immigration position as "divisive" and "inflammatory". They are trying to silence the other side of the debate, and then act as if they are being morally superior by doing it.

    They are expressing an opinion. The only way a debate can be silenced is if there is no response. The debate about immigration - which, apparently, has been repressed and silenced - has been raging in the country's newspapers and on its television screens for at least 15 years now.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,238
    edited 2015 07
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Knowing your way around a place and being able to read maps are not redundant even in the days of satnavs, IMO.

    Sat Navs can be very unreliable, in my experience.
    All of this is in the price, though. If you don't like what they are doing for any of many legitimate or fatuous reasons....don't use them.

    They cost less than black cabs and the transparency and mutual feedback mechanism is what people (what I) like.

    As for putting black cabs out of business so we are left with Uber only? Well the black cabs could put Uber out of business tomorrow morning if they lowered their fares.

    Edit: I'm sure black cab fares are determined statutorily but the principle remains.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Knowing your way around a place and being able to read maps are not redundant even in the days of satnavs, IMO.

    Sat Navs can be very unreliable, in my experience.
    In my experience, half the problems are the users. A classic example is someone going down the in sliproad off a roundabout as the SatNav said "take next left" a few seconds too early, and he took the turn without looking.

    I'm fairly at home with maps, and I tend to rely on the map on screen rather than the spoken directions.

    Sat Navs do not remove the need for common sense on the part of the user.
    The map on screen is undoubtedly, a very useful function.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.
    Is Kirkup right wing either? He was hammered in the comments. Suspended at 3,000+ when I checked in yesterday.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Knowing your way around a place and being able to read maps are not redundant even in the days of satnavs, IMO.

    Sat Navs can be very unreliable, in my experience.

    My SatNav (a Garmin) gets you to the vicinity, but very rarely the actual address. It seems to believe we live in an alley about 100 yards from our actual house!

    Use your phone!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    Charles said:


    Fundamentally if someone's primary source of income is through Uber then they are an employee.

    I'd guess its a mix of primary earners and some moonlighters.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    Dave laying into pollsters. Good.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    You thick turnip

    And the level of debate we have come to expect from the SNP too...
    Natland is a hermetically sealed universe, secure from doubt and the temptations of nuance. A network of committed newspapers and websites allows the most fervent to wall themselves off from upsetting facts. When you read every day that the SNP are plucky patriots under fire from quislings who lie to serve their masters in London, you will become angry as you strain to rationalise away evidence to the contrary.

    One normally savvy nationalist blogger enraged by the Thomson coverage harrumphs: “We might just not open the papers at all and be better informed”. The certain are in possession of the answers; they have no need of questions.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/article4578383.ece
    No point debating with you , you are fixated on hatred of SNP and I cannot believe I was even stupid enough to reply to one of your pathetic posts. I will resume normal service and ignore your second hand drivel. Come back if you ever get to the point where you have your own opinion on anything.
    Christ! You were debating?

    To big a word for your pea brain insecticide
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    rcs1000 said:



    I don't believe that Uber is running roughshod over laws in the UK. The only possible argument you could make is that they be required to do "fixed fares", to bring them into line with minicabs.

    What TFL proposes (5 minute cooldown between rides, not being allowed to show cars on a map) are ultimately just attempts to hobble competition.

    (I can't believe they make money in the UK - or anywhere else - so I'm not sure the taxation point is currently real.)

    I think it is reasonable to require them to have general contracting liability. If a service is using your brand as a mark of trust, then you should be responsible for that trust.

    How would they not be making money anywhere?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    TGOHF said:

    SNP donor wins big ferry contract...

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQs8RzpWoAAPPvL.jpg:large

    yesterday you whined they were destroying jobs , today you whine they are creating jobs
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    Were there any odds on Dave saying "comrade", must have been massive.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Pulpstar said:

    I think the requirement to build "starter/affordable homes" should be scrapped. In the round if say 1,000,000 new 5 bedroom luxury homes are built - the people from the 2 and 3 beds with decent equity will move to the new 5 beds, and then those 2 and 3 beds etc can be bought by first time buyers etc.....

    It is the principle of upward mobility. A big impediment to building has been the ridiculous govt and council set % of "affordable homes" often needing to be financed by the unaffordable homes so fewer homes get built as the financing is more difficult.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    One person I'd like to see stand for the leadership is Ruth Davidson, she's impressive.

    LOL
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,917
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:



    I'd look at addressing some of the real concerns about Uber - requiring regular vehicle checks, requiring the company to take out insurance on the fleet, establishing that Uber bears the responsibility for the actions of its drivers (ie that there is an employer-employee relationship rather than this "self-employed agent" bullshit). Those would all be reasonable things to address.

    Calm down Charles. It's only a taxi; it's not micro-surgery.

    The market will sort it out. Or should be able to. Boris is all over the shop on this, but the shop is firmly on the wrong side of everything.
    Wrong.

    Sometimes bad drives out good.

    In this case, with lower protection for consumers, Uber can charge less. Consumers won't realise it's a problem until it's too late - by which time the traditional black cab business model may have been fatally undermined. The answer is simple: put in minimum regulatory standards and require Uber to stand behind its drivers.

    And it's not "only a taxi". It's a safe journey home late at night for my wife.
    No need to over-dramatise things Charles. Other options are available for your wife. It sounds like the market is working perfectly. You don't like this whole Uber malarkey so you can exercise your freedom never to take them and so can your wife.

    For you both the world of black cabs and 24-hr mini-cab offices awaits.

    I think differently. If I read in the newspapers that Uber cars are flying off the road into buildings because of faulty maintenance or suchlike I might think again. But for the moment, I will continue to use them.

    Isn't the market wonderful?
    Maintainance is but a small part of the problem. Of more concern is insurance and driver vetting.
    If your prefer more direct language - how many rapes is too many..?
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    edited 2015 07
    john_zims said:

    @JosiasJessop

    'One does have to wonder how much Tom Watson's hand is in all of this. His hands are either deep in the muck, or he's been a very useful idiot. Either way, it does not reflect well on his position as deputy leader of the Labour party.' When can we expect a public apology from Watson ? He then needs to stop the grandstanding & shut the f$ck up.

    Watson will get his comeuppance eventually. He is usually forced to resign after some major c*ckup.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876
    edited 2015 07
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2015

    O/T Canadian Tories seem to be edging back into the lead. Nanos is the only pollster currently giving a lead to the Liberals, and it's falling.

    The New Democrats seem to have been squeezed into a firm third place.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    edited 2015 07
    Can anyone explain to me why we're still short of the right types of skilled immigrants we need whilst we're at record levels of immigration.

    This is the circle both myself and half the general population are trying to square up. Surely with 350k net migration we can get enough doctors/engineers or whatever into that lot ?!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:


    Fundamentally if someone's primary source of income is through Uber then they are an employee.

    I'd guess its a mix of primary earners and some moonlighters.
    And providing moonlighters have appropriate insurance, CRB checks and good quality cars there is no issue with that in my mind.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given we're all talking Uber, can I share an experience I had in San Francisco earlier this year. I had dinner at a friend's house near Candlestick Park (which is a pretty rundown, working class area). Historically, getting a cab there was incredibly difficult, and public transport (the bus) was infrequent.

    Anyway: at the end of dinner, I got out my phone and pressed the button for an Uber.

    Instead of ordering an UberX, as I normally do, I found myself accidentally ordering an UberPop.

    What is UberPop? It's a $7 flat fee service from anywhere in San Francisco to anywhere else. But there's a rub. It's not a direct run. The car probably has a passenger or two in when you get in, and then delivers one of them, and picks up another along the way. In other words, they use complicated algorithims to dynamically route cars.

    In the car with me for my journey were two construction workers, who were working on the night shift of some large project. They told me that before UberX they walked to the bus stop, waited for it, then got the bus to the subway stop before transferring. At 11pm at night, this could be an hour and 20 to get to work. Now it took them 20 to 25 minutes, and cost them just $7. (The same price as public transport.)

    Uber for me was just a way of saving money and getting a car when I needed it. For these guys, Uber had literally changed their lives.

    And when I've used it (in SF) it has been very good.

    There is clearly demand for its services.

    But that doesn't put it above the law, above taxation, above doing business in a moral and sustainable way.
    I don't believe that Uber is running roughshod over laws in the UK. The only possible argument you could make is that they be required to do "fixed fares", to bring them into line with minicabs.

    What TFL proposes (5 minute cooldown between rides, not being allowed to show cars on a map) are ultimately just attempts to hobble competition.

    (I can't believe they make money in the UK - or anywhere else - so I'm not sure the taxation point is currently real.)
    I agree TFL's proposals are self-interested rubbish.

    For me the issue is around security, insurance and the treatment of drivers as employees rather than contractors. I'm willing to bet they don't pay social security contributions, for instance, on drivers' earnings.

    Fundamentally if someone's primary source of income is through Uber then they are an employee.
    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.
  • TCPoliticalBettingTCPoliticalBetting Posts: 10,819
    Cameron delivering a sunny uplands speech, full of hope.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    Pulpstar said:

    I think the requirement to build "starter/affordable homes" should be scrapped. In the round if say 1,000,000 new 5 bedroom luxury homes are built - the people from the 2 and 3 beds with decent equity will move to the new 5 beds, and then those 2 and 3 beds etc can be bought by first time buyers etc.....

    It is the principle of upward mobility. A big impediment to building has been the ridiculous govt and council set % of "affordable homes" often needing to be financed by the unaffordable homes so fewer homes get built as the financing is more difficult.

    I think that is correct. Forcing developers to build unprofitable affordable homes skews the market too much. They shouldn't be forced to do it, instead the government should invest in it themselves and commission builders to do it for them at a fixed margin.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    Sean_F said:

    The map on screen is undoubtedly, a very useful function.

    I've just remembered an anecdote. When I was on my coastal walk in 2003, a friend came down to visit us in west Cornwall, equipped with the latest Sat Nav. He picked up my GF from a car park and then drove to meet me near Mousehole. My GF had driven around the area a little and kept on telling him: "You're heading the wrong way". He insisted that the Sat Nav was right.

    he only admitted he was wrong as they descended the hill down into St Ives. He'd entered the wrong postcode.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    MaxPB said:

    Without wanting to wade into the Scottish argument too far, what I would say is that the argument for Holyrood needs to focus on the SNP record, not on unionism, leave that for Westminster. The Tories and Labour need to attract the 10% of unionists who vote for the SNP because they are the only serious party of government in Scotland. The Tories may have realised this and their attacking of the SNP record on student fees, housing and cronyism seems to be bearing fruit in the locals with their vote share up on average. Labour seem to be falling back on scare stories about independence which didn't work last time and given the result of the referendum, also won't work this time. There is still time before the Holyrood election for them to build a proper policy platform, but they are so bereft of any real talent that their campaign will most likely be a rerun of the referendum campaign which saw their most loyal supporters vote for independence.

    I seriously think that the Tories have a good chance of coming second to the SNP, what are the odds for that?

    Lucky you have your Dad to get you a job , what a load of mixed up inaccurate mince
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    edited 2015 07
    Cameron's just fired the starting pistol.

    "As you know, I'm not going to fight another election as your leader."

    Is he going to defect to Labour? ;)
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    Scott_P said:

    @JournoStephen: "Slashing college places for working-class kids to pay for free university for the wealthy" - @DavidMundellDCT laying into SNP record #cpc15

    LOL , Mundell and anything or than dribbling is an oxymoron
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    TGOHF said:

    SNP donor wins big ferry contract...

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQs8RzpWoAAPPvL.jpg:large

    How much has McColl donated to the SNP?
    TUD why would that matter to these crack heads
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372

    JEO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.

    Indeed - but he is a Tory. The point being that the claim May has been attacked solely by metropolitan lefties is demonstrably false.

    No one has argued that. Kirkup is also on the right, but he's still one of the metropolitan liberal types.

    Look, I don't have a problem with people taking a pro-high immigration position and arguing their case. What I detest is the way such people call ANY argument towards a low immigration position as "divisive" and "inflammatory". They are trying to silence the other side of the debate, and then act as if they are being morally superior by doing it.

    They are expressing an opinion. The only way a debate can be silenced is if there is no response. The debate about immigration - which, apparently, has been repressed and silenced - has been raging in the country's newspapers and on its television screens for at least 15 years now.

    But if you think that we should have 300,000 immigrants rather than 500,000 then you are being characterised as a racist. It is simply chanting a mantra, not making an argument at all.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,830
    MaxPB said:

    Dave laying into pollsters. Good.

    Great line: "Twitter isn't Britain"
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Cammo carving in conference concrete that he will go at the end of this 5 year parliament.

    Let battle/s commence.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    Sean_F said:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_Canadian_federal_election,_2015

    O/T Canadian Tories seem to be edging back into the lead. Nanos is the only pollster currently giving a lead to the Liberals, and it's falling.

    The New Democrats seem to have been squeezed into a firm third place.

    As I said yesterday, it feels a lot like it did here in May. One pollster drowning everyone else out and the loudest voices drowning out the silent majority. I could see Harper ending up with almost enough seats to form a majority.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ScottyNational: Cameron: SNP MPs react to Cameron's pledge to build more houses - 'Just let us know if any might get repossessed so we can by them cheap'
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    edited 2015 07
    It's the same as that nitwit in the Staggers yesterday who wrote about May's speech re immigration and he talked about racism instead as if they're the same thing.

    JEO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.

    Indeed - but he is a Tory. The point being that the claim May has been attacked solely by metropolitan lefties is demonstrably false.

    No one has argued that. Kirkup is also on the right, but he's still one of the metropolitan liberal types.

    Look, I don't have a problem with people taking a pro-high immigration position and arguing their case. What I detest is the way such people call ANY argument towards a low immigration position as "divisive" and "inflammatory". They are trying to silence the other side of the debate, and then act as if they are being morally superior by doing it.

    They are expressing an opinion. The only way a debate can be silenced is if there is no response. The debate about immigration - which, apparently, has been repressed and silenced - has been raging in the country's newspapers and on its television screens for at least 15 years now.

    But if you think that we should have 300,000 immigrants rather than 500,000 then you are being characterised as a racist. It is simply chanting a mantra, not making an argument at all.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    One person I'd like to see stand for the leadership is Ruth Davidson, she's impressive.

    She needs to show she can make real progress in Scotland first - such as adding more MSPs and challenging SLAB for 2nd place. There are no major signs of her building a substantial membership base and organisation - next May will be a key test.
    Yes her last , worst Tory vote in history was not exactly stellar. Picking up a handful of list consolation seats is not success. She will get nowhere as she is simple a London sockpuppet. Until we see the semblance of a Scottish Conservative party they will remain a mere irritant.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,266
    Are you watching Jeremy Corbyn
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372

    MaxPB said:

    Dave laying into pollsters. Good.

    Great line: "Twitter isn't Britain"
    Is he saying he doesn't think we are tw@ts?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @STJamesl: Cameron gets a standing ovation by calling corbyn a terrorist sympathiser #con15
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Ouchtastic

    Are you watching Jeremy Corbyn

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756
    MaxPB said:

    One person I'd like to see stand for the leadership is Ruth Davidson, she's impressive.

    She needs to show she can make real progress in Scotland first - such as adding more MSPs and challenging SLAB for 2nd place. There are no major signs of her building a substantial membership base and organisation - next May will be a key test.
    Her moving to Westminster would also show that the Tories see Scotland as a second rate country like SLAB, it would reinforce everything the SNP say about the unionist parties. Davidson is better deployed in Scotland rebuilding the party there while SLAB are weak and the SNP have serious governance issues.
    I cannot stop chuckling at that, more chance of putting Humpty Dumpty together again. Your imagined view from London is a hoot.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Cam : Corbyn "Britain hating" ...

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372
    Shouty soundbite about Corbyn, designed the get the most repetition.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    AfD also on their highest ever national poll rating. One wonders if a post Merkel CDU/CSU would prefer a centre right coalition with them or a continuation of the grand coalition.

    The CSU is also in real trouble, AfD are surging in Bavaria and are threatening to limit the CSU to under 5% of the national vote. It would be a huge defeat for Merkel to lose the CSU alliance.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    Cameron laying into Corbyn:

    "My friends, we cannot let that man inflict his security threatening, terrorist sympathising, Britain hating ideology on this country."

    To a standing ovation.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788


    And on the subject of protecting our country from terrorism, let me just say this:

    Thousands of words have been written about the new Labour leader.

    But you only really need to know one thing: he thinks the death of Osama bin Laden was a “tragedy”.

    No.

    A tragedy is nearly 3,000 people murdered one morning in New York.

    A tragedy is the mums and dads who never came home from work that day.

    A tragedy is people jumping from the towers after the planes hit.

    My friends – we cannot let that man inflict his security-threatening, terrorist-sympathising, Britain-hating ideology on the country we love.


    BOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Cameron laying into Corbyn:

    "My friends, we cannot let that man inflict his security threatening, terrorist sympathising, Britain hating ideology on this country."

    To a standing ovation.

    Labour are finished.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PCollinsTimes: The contrast with last week is so deeply embarrassing I just want to cry.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The people jumping to their deaths was the thing that really stuck with me.



    And on the subject of protecting our country from terrorism, let me just say this:

    Thousands of words have been written about the new Labour leader.

    But you only really need to know one thing: he thinks the death of Osama bin Laden was a “tragedy”.

    No.

    A tragedy is nearly 3,000 people murdered one morning in New York.

    A tragedy is the mums and dads who never came home from work that day.

    A tragedy is people jumping from the towers after the planes hit.

    My friends – we cannot let that man inflict his security-threatening, terrorist-sympathising, Britain-hating ideology on the country we love.


    BOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Standing ovation for the UK armed forces.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    4 new Tridents subs confirmed.
  • DanSmithDanSmith Posts: 1,215
    Awesome speech from Cameron.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: Cam: Govt will order new nuclear subs. Wonder if he'll cause even more probs for Labour by putting back maingate vote until AFTER Lab conf?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Re (2): Isn't that also true of *all* minicab firms (certainly including Addison Lee), then?

    Also: if a black cab driver is getting the majority of income from Get Taxi or Hailo, then surely the same rule must apply to them.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    MaxPB said:

    AfD also on their highest ever national poll rating. One wonders if a post Merkel CDU/CSU would prefer a centre right coalition with them or a continuation of the grand coalition.

    The CSU is also in real trouble, AfD are surging in Bavaria and are threatening to limit the CSU to under 5% of the national vote. It would be a huge defeat for Merkel to lose the CSU alliance.

    7%!

    Interestingly, the Greens and the Left Party have also lost votes (and the CDU/CSU is still on 39%), suggesting AfD is drawing from all parties.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,266
    DanSmith said:

    Awesome speech from Cameron.

    Inspirational dynamic and slaying labour in one speech
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,739
    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Yep. I wonder how long it will be before HMRC start looking at IR35 compliance?
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,368
    edited 2015 07
    Mr Observer,

    "They are expressing an opinion."

    The problem is that they are expressing a subjective opinion about the people who disagree with them not the subject under discussion.

    Q: What number is too many? A: Racist.

    Q: What sort of immigrants do we want and need? A: Racist

    And that's the polite response.

    Edit: I think some immigration is useful and needed but that is never considered.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240

    4 new Tridents subs confirmed.

    It's hard to see how three or fewer subs could meet the requirements. You'd have to either massively change the requirements, for example by dropping the 'constantly at sea' capability (*), or develop a new delivery mechanism at massive expense (and probably to operate as well).

    (*) Hoping that's what it's called...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842

    JEO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.

    Indeed - but he is a Tory. The point being that the claim May has been attacked solely by metropolitan lefties is demonstrably false.

    No one has argued that. Kirkup is also on the right, but he's still one of the metropolitan liberal types.

    Look, I don't have a problem with people taking a pro-high immigration position and arguing their case. What I detest is the way such people call ANY argument towards a low immigration position as "divisive" and "inflammatory". They are trying to silence the other side of the debate, and then act as if they are being morally superior by doing it.

    They are expressing an opinion. The only way a debate can be silenced is if there is no response. The debate about immigration - which, apparently, has been repressed and silenced - has been raging in the country's newspapers and on its television screens for at least 15 years now.

    But if you think that we should have 300,000 immigrants rather than 500,000 then you are being characterised as a racist. It is simply chanting a mantra, not making an argument at all.

    Likewise, if you think we should have 500,000 instead of 300,000 you are characterised as an out of touch metropolitan elitist who personally benefits from immigration and does not care about the adverse effects it has on members of the white working class.

    We have had this debate for 15 years. We have had lots of accusations and name calling from both sides. And immigration rises whoever is in power.

    It's been a shockingly poor debate.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound 45 secs46 seconds ago

    This may be the easiest speech any leader has made in 50 years. Standing ovations for opposing terrorism, supporting nuclear deterrence etc
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454

    4 new Tridents subs confirmed.

    It's hard to see how three or fewer subs could meet the requirements. You'd have to either massively change the requirements, for example by dropping the 'constantly at sea' capability (*), or develop a new delivery mechanism at massive expense (and probably to operate as well).

    (*) Hoping that's what it's called...
    It's the "Continuous at sea" deterrent, FWIW.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Sandpit said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:



    I'd look at addressing some of the real concerns about Uber - requiring regular vehicle checks, requiring the company to take out insurance on the fleet, establishing that Uber bears the responsibility for the actions of its drivers (ie that there is an employer-employee relationship rather than this "self-employed agent" bullshit). Those would all be reasonable things to address.

    Calm down Charles. It's only a taxi; it's not micro-surgery.

    The market will sort it out. Or should be able to. Boris is all over the shop on this, but the shop is firmly on the wrong side of everything.
    Wrong.

    Sometimes bad drives out good.

    In this case, with lower protection for consumers, Uber can charge less. Consumers won't realise it's a problem until it's too late - by which time the traditional black cab business model may have been fatally undermined. The answer is simple: put in minimum regulatory standards and require Uber to stand behind its drivers.

    And it's not "only a taxi". It's a safe journey home late at night for my wife.
    No need to over-dramatise things Charles. Other options are available for your wife. It sounds like the market is working perfectly. You don't like this whole Uber malarkey so you can exercise your freedom never to take them and so can your wife.

    For you both the world of black cabs and 24-hr mini-cab offices awaits.

    I think differently. If I read in the newspapers that Uber cars are flying off the road into buildings because of faulty maintenance or suchlike I might think again. But for the moment, I will continue to use them.

    Isn't the market wonderful?
    Maintainance is but a small part of the problem. Of more concern is insurance and driver vetting.
    If your prefer more direct language - how many rapes is too many..?
    Uber drivers in London go through exactly the same checks as any mini cab driver.

    There will be rapes committed by Uber drivers, there will be rapes committed by mini cab drivers, there will be rapes committed by black cab drivers.

    At least in the latter case, you know exactly which car picked you up
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,842
    edited 2015 07
    CD13 said:

    Mr Observer,

    "They are expressing an opinion."

    The problem is that they are expressing a subjective opinion about the people who disagree with them not the subject under discussion.

    Q: What number is too many? A: Racist.

    Q: What sort of immigrants do we want and need? A: Racist

    And that's the polite response.

    Edit: I think some immigration is useful and needed but that is never considered.

    I haven't seen anyone sensible calling May a racist. Certainly Massie and Kirkup do not throw that charge at her.

  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372
    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    I think I have a different view of employment law. (1) not sure what the customers have to do with it. If you hire a temp from an agency you are buying the agency's services, but it is perfectly possible for the temp to be on a self employed basis. (2) many Uber drivers are part time, and I don't think HMRC would see the arrangement as a way to circumvent employment law. The driver is after all responsible for providing their own tools of the trade (the car) and can decide whether or not to accept a particular job.

    But I agree with you on ensuring that vehicles are roadworthy, drivers are insured for hire and reward, and have had DBS checks.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Joy of Tax - 64 positions and none of them work - LOL
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,917
    rcs1000 said:

    Given we're all talking Uber, can I share an experience I had in San Francisco earlier this year. I had dinner at a friend's house near Candlestick Park (which is a pretty rundown, working class area). Historically, getting a cab there was incredibly difficult, and public transport (the bus) was infrequent.

    Anyway: at the end of dinner, I got out my phone and pressed the button for an Uber.

    Instead of ordering an UberX, as I normally do, I found myself accidentally ordering an UberPop.

    What is UberPop? It's a $7 flat fee service from anywhere in San Francisco to anywhere else. But there's a rub. It's not a direct run. The car probably has a passenger or two in when you get in, and then delivers one of them, and picks up another along the way. In other words, they use complicated algorithims to dynamically route cars.

    In the car with me for my journey were two construction workers, who were working on the night shift of some large project. They told me that before UberX they walked to the bus stop, waited for it, then got the bus to the subway stop before transferring. At 11pm at night, this could be an hour and 20 to get to work. Now it took them 20 to 25 minutes, and cost them just $7. (The same price as public transport.)

    Uber for me was just a way of saving money and getting a car when I needed it. For these guys, Uber had literally changed their lives.

    That is how a "ride sharing service" is supposed to work, and with proper regulation is a good thing.

    It's very different to running a taxi company and calling it something different - purely to avoid all the laws that apply to taxi services.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240

    4 new Tridents subs confirmed.

    It's hard to see how three or fewer subs could meet the requirements. You'd have to either massively change the requirements, for example by dropping the 'constantly at sea' capability (*), or develop a new delivery mechanism at massive expense (and probably to operate as well).

    (*) Hoping that's what it's called...
    It's the "Continuous at sea" deterrent, FWIW.
    Ah, thanks. I thought it sounded wrong as I read it. Right jist though, ;)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    rcs1000 said:

    MaxPB said:

    AfD also on their highest ever national poll rating. One wonders if a post Merkel CDU/CSU would prefer a centre right coalition with them or a continuation of the grand coalition.

    The CSU is also in real trouble, AfD are surging in Bavaria and are threatening to limit the CSU to under 5% of the national vote. It would be a huge defeat for Merkel to lose the CSU alliance.

    7%!

    Interestingly, the Greens and the Left Party have also lost votes (and the CDU/CSU is still on 39%), suggesting AfD is drawing from all parties.
    I think they will become a serious danger to the CSU if they continue to surge in Bavaria where the anti-migrant sentiment is strongest.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    I think I have a different view of employment law. (1) not sure what the customers have to do with it. If you hire a temp from an agency you are buying the agency's services, but it is perfectly possible for the temp to be on a self employed basis. (2) many Uber drivers are part time, and I don't think HMRC would see the arrangement as a way to circumvent employment law. The driver is after all responsible for providing their own tools of the trade (the car) and can decide whether or not to accept a particular job.

    But I agree with you on ensuring that vehicles are roadworthy, drivers are insured for hire and reward, and have had DBS checks.
    Uber drivers in London need to sign up with TFL in the same way minicab drivers do. There is no lessening of standards, and you are still required to have a PCO license and commercial insurance.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Re (2): Isn't that also true of *all* minicab firms (certainly including Addison Lee), then?

    Also: if a black cab driver is getting the majority of income from Get Taxi or Hailo, then surely the same rule must apply to them.
    It's not a question of "majority of income" - not well phrased. I was trying to distinguish between a professional driver and a moonlighter

    A black cab that picks up passengers off the street as well as using Hailo or Get Taxi has multiple clients.

    An Uber driver who gets all his passengers from Uber has a different relationship with the firm in that, effectively, they can put him out of business by excluding him from their app.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    Not sure how they will get developers to sell houses at a loss, but we need to see the detail.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    edited 2015 07
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Re (2): Isn't that also true of *all* minicab firms (certainly including Addison Lee), then?

    Also: if a black cab driver is getting the majority of income from Get Taxi or Hailo, then surely the same rule must apply to them.
    It's not a question of "majority of income" - not well phrased. I was trying to distinguish between a professional driver and a moonlighter

    A black cab that picks up passengers off the street as well as using Hailo or Get Taxi has multiple clients.

    An Uber driver who gets all his passengers from Uber has a different relationship with the firm in that, effectively, they can put him out of business by excluding him from their app.
    Nevertheless, if you work as a minicab with Addison Lee or Swiss Cottage Cars or whatever, you have always been considered a contractor.

    Why should it be different with Uber?

    [Edit to add: so if I sign up with both Lyft and Uber, and use both services as a driver, I can be self employed?]
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372
    edited 2015 07

    JEO said:

    Sean_F said:

    Alex Massie is scarcely a right wing commentator.

    Indeed - but he is a Tory. The point being that the claim May has been attacked solely by metropolitan lefties is demonstrably false.

    No one has argued that. Kirkup is also on the right, but he's still one of the metropolitan liberal types.

    Look, I don't have a problem with people taking a pro-high immigration position and arguing their case. What I detest is the way such people call ANY argument towards a low immigration position as "divisive" and "inflammatory". They are trying to silence the other side of the debate, and then act as if they are being morally superior by doing it.

    They are expressing an opinion. The only way a debate can be silenced is if there is no response. The debate about immigration - which, apparently, has been repressed and silenced - has been raging in the country's newspapers and on its television screens for at least 15 years now.

    But if you think that we should have 300,000 immigrants rather than 500,000 then you are being characterised as a racist. It is simply chanting a mantra, not making an argument at all.

    Likewise, if you think we should have 500,000 instead of 300,000 you are characterised as an out of touch metropolitan elitist who personally benefits from immigration and does not care about the adverse effects it has on members of the white working class.

    We have had this debate for 15 years. We have had lots of accusations and name calling from both sides. And immigration rises whoever is in power.

    It's been a shockingly poor debate.
    I agree with you there. Debates on security vs civil liberties, or drug legalisation, are as bad.

    But if a less-immigration supporter comes out with practical economic or social reasons he is still shouted down as racist.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    I think I have a different view of employment law. (1) not sure what the customers have to do with it. If you hire a temp from an agency you are buying the agency's services, but it is perfectly possible for the temp to be on a self employed basis. (2) many Uber drivers are part time, and I don't think HMRC would see the arrangement as a way to circumvent employment law. The driver is after all responsible for providing their own tools of the trade (the car) and can decide whether or not to accept a particular job.

    But I agree with you on ensuring that vehicles are roadworthy, drivers are insured for hire and reward, and have had DBS checks.
    I know quite a few self-employed people who use an agency to find work. The only serious issue AFAIK is where their “place of work” is for tax reasons, i.e. are they working at home and going somewhere to do something, or going to work in the same way as an employed person is. IIRC it’s something to do with whether they work at the same place often, or regularly.
    Agree about the second point, IF the drivers are free to refuse, and whether there’s a penalty if they do.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Charles said:

    An Uber driver who gets all his passengers from Uber has a different relationship with the firm in that, effectively, they can put him out of business by excluding him from their app.

    Most of the Uber drivers I've spoken to have always been minicab drivers, and left working with traditional services because of:

    1. The much lower commission Uber charges and
    2. The possibility of earning surge pricing
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    Has such a supposedly blockbusting kiss-n-tell ever turned into such a damn squib?

    Hitler's Diary?

    Similar provenance...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Re (2): Isn't that also true of *all* minicab firms (certainly including Addison Lee), then?

    Also: if a black cab driver is getting the majority of income from Get Taxi or Hailo, then surely the same rule must apply to them.
    It's not a question of "majority of income" - not well phrased. I was trying to distinguish between a professional driver and a moonlighter

    A black cab that picks up passengers off the street as well as using Hailo or Get Taxi has multiple clients.

    An Uber driver who gets all his passengers from Uber has a different relationship with the firm in that, effectively, they can put him out of business by excluding him from their app.
    Nevertheless, if you work as a minicab with Addison Lee or Swiss Cottage Cars or whatever, you have always been considered a contractor.

    Why should it be different with Uber?

    [Edit to add: so if I sign up with both Lyft and Uber, and use both services as a driver, I can be self employed?]
    It comes down to whether you are effectively exclusive to one party (actually I think you need 3 clients to be an independent contractor). But I'm not an expert on IR35.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    SeanT said:

    Cameron dealing with the Ashcroft accusation with almost Blair-like insouciance and elan.

    Has such a supposedly blockbusting kiss-n-tell ever turned into such a damn squib?

    Leading with the pig story effectively killed its credibility.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,917

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Given we're all talking Uber, can I share an experience I had in San Francisco earlier this year. I had dinner at a friend's house near Candlestick Park (which is a pretty rundown, working class area.

    Anyway: at the end of dinner, I got out my phone and pressed the button for an Uber.

    Instead of ordering an UberX, as I normally do, I found myself accidentally ordering an UberPop.

    What is UberPop? It's a $7 flat fee service from anywhere in San Francisco to anywhere else. But there's a rub. It's not a direct run. The car probably has a passenger or two in when you get in, and then delivers one of them, and picks up another along the way. In other words, they use complicated algorithims to dynamically route cars.

    In the car with me for my journey were two construction workers, who were working on the night shift of some large project. They told me that before UberX they walked to the bus stop, waited for it, then got the bus to the subway stop before transferring. At 11pm at night, this could be an hour and 20 to get to work. Now it took them 20 to 25 minutes, and cost them just $7. (The same price as public transport.)

    Uber for me was just a way of saving money and getting a car when I needed it. For these guys, Uber had literally changed their lives.

    And when I've used it (in SF) it has been very good.

    There is clearly demand for its services.

    But that doesn't put it above the law, above taxation, above doing business in a moral and sustainable way.
    I don't believe that Uber is running roughshod over laws in the UK. The only possible argument you could make is that they be required to do "fixed fares", to bring them into line with minicabs.

    What TFL proposes (5 minute cooldown between rides, not being allowed to show cars on a map) are ultimately just attempts to hobble competition.

    (I can't believe they make money in the UK - or anywhere else - so I'm not sure the taxation point is currently real.)
    I agree TFL's proposals are self-interested rubbish.

    For me the issue is around security, insurance and the treatment of drivers as employees rather than contractors. I'm willing to bet they don't pay social security contributions, for instance, on drivers' earnings.

    Fundamentally if someone's primary source of income is through Uber then they are an employee.
    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.
    But if the financial relationship is between the customer and the agency (rather than the contractor/driver) then the agency has responsibilities towards the customer, such as making sure their contractor is complying with applicable regulations.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    I think I have a different view of employment law. (1) not sure what the customers have to do with it. If you hire a temp from an agency you are buying the agency's services, but it is perfectly possible for the temp to be on a self employed basis. (2) many Uber drivers are part time, and I don't think HMRC would see the arrangement as a way to circumvent employment law. The driver is after all responsible for providing their own tools of the trade (the car) and can decide whether or not to accept a particular job.

    But I agree with you on ensuring that vehicles are roadworthy, drivers are insured for hire and reward, and have had DBS checks.
    Uber drivers in London need to sign up with TFL in the same way minicab drivers do. There is no lessening of standards, and you are still required to have a PCO license and commercial insurance.
    Didn't know that. Sounds OK to me then. Black cabs need to find ways of competing then.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709

    Also notice that the government is changing the laws on expats' voting rights to make them lifelong - presumably in the (not necessarily correct) assumption that most of them are Tories.

    Cynically, the other benefit is that it makes it easier for overseas supporters to donate money.

    Less cynically, the actual policy is obviously correct. More and more people are living outside the country they're nationals of, but the world isn't getting any less nationalistic, so it's unusual to be able to vote in the place where you live rather than the place you were born or whatever. (Although the latter would make more sense, IMHO). It's not in anyone's interests to disfranchise huge chunks of the world's population so they only way they can have their say is by buying politicians or setting fire to things.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited 2015 07
    Sandpit said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    But if the financial relationship is between the customer and the agency (rather than the contractor/driver) then the agency has responsibilities towards the customer, such as making sure their contractor is complying with applicable regulations.
    AIUI, Uber claims that the financial relationship is between the customer and the driver; they are just providing services such as sourcing bookings and processing payments.

    If Uber had the same responsibilities as an agency firm re: ensuring quality of service I'd be much more comfortable with that
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,161
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Re (2): Isn't that also true of *all* minicab firms (certainly including Addison Lee), then?

    Also: if a black cab driver is getting the majority of income from Get Taxi or Hailo, then surely the same rule must apply to them.
    It's not a question of "majority of income" - not well phrased. I was trying to distinguish between a professional driver and a moonlighter

    A black cab that picks up passengers off the street as well as using Hailo or Get Taxi has multiple clients.

    An Uber driver who gets all his passengers from Uber has a different relationship with the firm in that, effectively, they can put him out of business by excluding him from their app.
    Nevertheless, if you work as a minicab with Addison Lee or Swiss Cottage Cars or whatever, you have always been considered a contractor.

    Why should it be different with Uber?

    [Edit to add: so if I sign up with both Lyft and Uber, and use both services as a driver, I can be self employed?]
    It comes down to whether you are effectively exclusive to one party (actually I think you need 3 clients to be an independent contractor). But I'm not an expert on IR35.
    Minicab drivers are all self employed - because technically it is the man who gets into your car, and not the agency that sets up the ride who is your customer.

    It seems perverse to change that for Uber.

    What is Uber other than a more efficient way to call for a minicab?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @MikeGapes: I agree with David Cameron on this. But presumably I will now be denounced on Twitter for saying so. Can't wait. https://t.co/2m4JCYze76
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,368
    Mr Observer,

    "Certainly Massie and Kirkup do not throw that charge at her.

    Not directly. They say she is speaking to and at the crowd, the rabble who are racist, and she should not do it.

    A fine distinction.

    Nothing's totally black and white, but if the most of one side prefer to stick fingers in their ears and go na-na-na, where is the discussion?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Re (2): Isn't that also true of *all* minicab firms (certainly including Addison Lee), then?

    Also: if a black cab driver is getting the majority of income from Get Taxi or Hailo, then surely the same rule must apply to them.
    It's not a question of "majority of income" - not well phrased. I was trying to distinguish between a professional driver and a moonlighter

    A black cab that picks up passengers off the street as well as using Hailo or Get Taxi has multiple clients.

    An Uber driver who gets all his passengers from Uber has a different relationship with the firm in that, effectively, they can put him out of business by excluding him from their app.
    Nevertheless, if you work as a minicab with Addison Lee or Swiss Cottage Cars or whatever, you have always been considered a contractor.

    Why should it be different with Uber?

    [Edit to add: so if I sign up with both Lyft and Uber, and use both services as a driver, I can be self employed?]
    It comes down to whether you are effectively exclusive to one party (actually I think you need 3 clients to be an independent contractor). But I'm not an expert on IR35.
    IR35 is aimed at people who are effectively employees and have none of the attributes of a self employed business. Uber drivers provide their vehicle and accept the risk of not getting customers.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:



    Surely Uber is just an agency that finds you thé work.

    That's their argument. Two responses:

    (1) Customers think they are buying Uber's service in the sense of them providing the drivers rather than just sourcing independent contractors. So they are relying on the Uber trust - there's an element of misrepresentation.

    (2) Drivers who earn the majority of their income from Uber are the same as "independent contractors" working for one company. It's a tax dodge.

    Fundamentally Uber needs to take responsibility for its actions rather than hiding behind a clever structure. They want to participate in the market: fine. But they shouldn't be allowed to leech off it.
    Re (2): Isn't that also true of *all* minicab firms (certainly including Addison Lee), then?

    Also: if a black cab driver is getting the majority of income from Get Taxi or Hailo, then surely the same rule must apply to them.
    It's not a question of "majority of income" - not well phrased. I was trying to distinguish between a professional driver and a moonlighter

    A black cab that picks up passengers off the street as well as using Hailo or Get Taxi has multiple clients.

    An Uber driver who gets all his passengers from Uber has a different relationship with the firm in that, effectively, they can put him out of business by excluding him from their app.
    Nevertheless, if you work as a minicab with Addison Lee or Swiss Cottage Cars or whatever, you have always been considered a contractor.

    Why should it be different with Uber?

    [Edit to add: so if I sign up with both Lyft and Uber, and use both services as a driver, I can be self employed?]
    It comes down to whether you are effectively exclusive to one party (actually I think you need 3 clients to be an independent contractor). But I'm not an expert on IR35.
    Minicab drivers are all self employed - because technically it is the man who gets into your car, and not the agency that sets up the ride who is your customer.

    It seems perverse to change that for Uber.

    What is Uber other than a more efficient way to call for a minicab?
    Scale.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Hmm. Could've sworn I saw a Corbyn tweet denouncing Cameron for smearing him, but it's not there. May've been a parody account (although I thought it was real), or may've been deleted.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @paulwaugh: That's a HUGE announcement (but like many detailed policies, didn't get huge applause):
    *Every* school an academy.
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