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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May sends a strong reminder that she’s still in the

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  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,756

    MG The driver on the return journey was not aware of who you are..

    He was not wearing a mask unlike the black cab driver which did give me a clue.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Cyclefree said:



    It's not just dead men's reputation. One of the alleged perpetrators is a 91 year old former Head of the Army. I have no idea whether the allegations are true but he deserves to know the outcome either way and soon and that the police investigation is being properly, professionally and expeditiously done. Some doubt is being cast on that and the impression risks being given that the police are more concerned with showing that they are on the side of victims than investigating the allegations and putting forward a case for prosecution, if there is one.

    The best way of showing that you are on the side of victims - though that is not fundamentally the police's job - is to investigate. And to investigate you don't assume at the start what you are seeking to prove, you maintain a scepticism about what you are being told and you look for strong evidence, primary and corroborative. And you move as fast as possible. What you don't do is emote about victims, announce publicly that you believe them - your belief being neither here nor there, frankly, as evidence - and then play the whole thing (or appear to) for what looks like good PR for you on the news.

    Yes, agree with all that. I was once accused of stirring up racial hatred by a mischievous far-right group (because I'd joked about what the BBC would be like under the Taliban - Xena Warrior Housewife etc.) and it took the CPS 15 months to get round to telling me that there was no case to answer. I believe that this is because they'd always thought it sounded frivolous so they'd given it low priority, but it would have been nice to get it disposed of in reasonable time.
    [snip]
    Excellent. Skewered by your own disgraceful laws. A pity you weren't hung out to dry for longer as many innocent victims of your own legislation have been.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876
    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    tlg86 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all. Race to succeed Dave in full swing, although I wonder if in the back of his head he'll stay on to the election if he wins the EU referendum..?

    An interesting discussion on the overnight thread on immigration, I still think the problem is that no-one dares to separate "good" and "bad" immigration types for fears of not being PC.

    FWIW I would give the companies complaining about skills shortages unlimited visas, if they agree to pay the salary again of the employee (maybe a minimum of £40k or £50k) into an education fund set up to address the skills shortages. That way universities and colleges could work with the businesses to address areas where skills are needed. Maybe anyone wanting a Masters in a STEM subject should have their tuition paid, maybe if we need more engineers, doctors, pilots etc. we could make sure that the newly qualified in these areas aren't up to their necks in debt if they agree to stay in the UK for a period of time.

    Well quite: most immigrants are good for us. Some aren't. We need to distinguish between the two. More of the former. None of the latter. And all has to be done with the open consent of people here and the benefits and costs shared fairly amongst all.

    Instead, all are let in - without any sensible discrimination between good and bad. Our ability or willingness to remove those we don't want is close to zero. Consent is not properly obtained and poisons trust between ruler and ruled and the benefits and costs are most unfairly shared. The rich get the cheap nannies, cleaners and plumbers and the poor get their jobs taken, wages depressed and neighbourhoods changed out of all recognition. And are told that they are Luddite bigots to add insult to injury.

    How we get from here to where we would like to be is what May - and any other putative leader - needs to answer, on this question at least.

    Had a Ukip politician made the speech that May did we'd have had Tories on here frothing at the mouth - and rightly so. The problem with the speech is that it gives ammunition to those who think we should let in anyone who wants to come here. The argument - as you quite rightly describe - is far more nuanced and complicated, and speeches like that of May's only hamper the discussion taking place.
    Those discussions are taking place all over the country, 80% of the population want to control immigration.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    I think Uber is a terrible company. They hide behind the consumer advantage and being a disruptive company but basically think they can ride roughshod over regulation and disclaim all responsibility for the consequences of their actions. That is an unacceptable side to capitalism.

    Boris is just defending vested interest. Not good. His proposals are simple to entrench a monopoly to the detriment of consumers.

    I'd look at addressing some of the real concerns about Uber - requiring regular vehicle checks, requiring the company to take out insurance on the fleet, establishing that Uber bears the responsibility for the actions of its drivers (ie that there is an employer-employee relationship rather than this "self-employed agent" bullshit). Those would all be reasonable things to address.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    TOPPING said:

    1. Uber is great - I love it, I signed the petition and I never sign petitions. The taxi experience, regardless of cost (much cheaper than black cabs) and reliability (you know exactly where and when the driver is and is coming), has been transformed by the mutual feedback mechanism. Both driver and passenger understand that their behaviour will be rated and that makes for a much more civilised experience.

    2. BWNBPM - he is a buffoon albeit a thoroughly entertaining one. I don't buy the beneath the buffoonery there is a serious politician line. Think of him in a room with Vlad. The Russian PM would listen, nod, make some agreeable noises, and then get out his pistol and shoot Boris through the head, before moving on.

    3. Cons leadership election in general I mean I know we are PB but it is ages away and there are far too many events due over the next four years to take a view now.

    1. I agree with you on Uber and the the whole taxi imbroglio.

    2. I cannot agree that Boris is a buffoon, he may be a Joker and trickster but that is an entirely different thing. Vlad and B would get on just fine. Great chess, though.

    3. Yes anything can happen in a week, let alone in 4 years and 6 months.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @iainmartin1: Leading astrophysicist warns Scottish govt is destroying independence/reputation of universities. Via @ArtyBagger http://t.co/1XFqB8Zc0c
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Yes. This.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 97,047

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    That would seem to be the case. Unfortunate for them, but protecting them from competition because they are becoming redundant, if that is indeed the case, seems short sighted.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    To an extent "the knowledge" is now redundant. Proper insurance and maintenence of vehicles, screening of drivers for criminal records and acceptance by Uber that they have an employers responsibility do remain essential though.

    I very rarely use taxis of any sort, in the UK at least.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Robert Kimbell ‏@RedHotSquirrel 1m1 minute ago
    #Immigration while Theresa May has been Home Secretary:

    641,000 2014
    526,000 2013
    498,000 2012
    566,000 2011
    591,000 2010

    Oh Maggie, Maggie May,
    they should be taking you away
    and dumping you
    in Calais, by the bridge. etc, etc.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,368

    Here in the north, they've always felt that London is a foreign country, they do things differently there. And that Londoners, especially London media, assume they know best and have to teach the ignorant people who live out in the sticks.

    BBC people do it with a kind manner, but others are not so particular and the people they invite on to discuss the failings of the hoi polloi tend to be caricatures. Some self-important Irish no-mark was on last night over-dosing on scorn for the majority view.

    Everything in black and white in Metroland (I'm not talking about race). I thought that too when I was seventeen but I grew up. Things are nearly always shades of grey and you learn to respect, if not always like, others' view.

    Labour have always had a problem with this. The young Jezbollah don't understand and that's why anyone who even gives others' view a hearing is an (insert insult here).

    Will Labour eventually split along the tribal, working class north vs posh, younger and metropolitan liberal left lines?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    edited 2015 07

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    To an extent "the knowledge" is now redundant. Proper insurance and maintenence of vehicles, screening of drivers for criminal records and acceptance by Uber that they have an employers responsibility do remain essential though.

    I very rarely use taxis of any sort, in the UK at least.

    I believe there were regulations regarding the watering and feeding of horses for the hansom can driver. Some regulation will indeed be necessary, on the lines you suggest, but other countries seem to manage quite well without “the knowledge”.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    MikeK..The only way to stop the rise is to leave the EU...Anyone who votes to stay in is voting for more uncontrolled immigration..
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,918
    edited 2015 07
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's.

    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers.

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    I think Uber is a terrible company. They hide behind the consumer advantage and being a disruptive company but basically think they can ride roughshod over regulation and disclaim all responsibility for the consequences of their actions. That is an unacceptable side to capitalism.

    Boris is just defending vested interest. Not good. His proposals are simple to entrench a monopoly to the detriment of consumers.

    I'd look at addressing some of the real concerns about Uber - requiring regular vehicle checks, requiring the company to take out insurance on the fleet, establishing that Uber bears the responsibility for the actions of its drivers (ie that there is an employer-employee relationship rather than this "self-employed agent" bullshit). Those would all be reasonable things to address.
    The taxi industry is ripe for innovation, but as you say one upstart in particular is spreading worldwide by ignoring regulation in almost every city it operates. It also responds to criticism with expensive lawyers and is making extensive use of paid relationships with journalists and bloggers for positive publicity.

    There are plenty of regulations governing these operations, it would be good to review why these exist and if they are still relevant. That cars are inspected and have commercial insurance, and drivers CRB checked is an absolute minimum. Companies offering booking services should be able to verify that the driver is actually who they think he is, and that he and his car are properly licenced and insured.

    The tests of fairness would be what happens if you're involved in an accident in or with one of these cars, what can they charge for example on New Year's Eve, and how many cars to they have available for the disabled.

    The recent London proposals were obviously written by the black cab Union, and are less than helpful. Proposals should come out of involvement of all types of operator, as well as a cross section of residents, visitors and tourists to the city.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    The Jewish Chronicle Retweeted
    Marcus Dysch ‏@MarcusDysch 14m14 minutes ago
    Philip Hammond mocks Jeremy Corbyn over #Israel speech: http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/146627/philip-hammond-mocks-jeremy-corbyn-over-israel-speech@CFoI

    Getting the Jewish vote.

    However I find it hard to believe that any UK government would give meaningful support to Israel, should it come to the crunch.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    Ceri Thomas, Editor Panorama

    A group of MPs became fixed on the idea of holding the police's feet to the fire, but the line between doing that and interfering in justice is a thin one. Some politicians may have crossed it.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34442292

    However, from the same article:
    And then there's the press. At the end of that run of crises, its reputation can rarely have been lower - cheerfully hacking the phones of murder victims, miserably incompetent at investigating Jimmy Savile's crimes.
    ISTR that the Sun did make allegations about Savile, and later had to pay damages to the BBC star. It's also ignoring Panorama's own hideous record wrt McAlpine, and the BBC's wrt Savile.

    And later:
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/02/sun-jimmy-savile-surrey-police
    Wasn't it Newsnight that had the McAlpine car crash? I thought Panorama came out of the debacle intact.
    Sorry, you are right. Oops.
    One does have to wonder how much Tom Watson's hand is in all of this.
    His hands are either deep in the muck, or he's been a very useful idiot. Either way, it does not reflect well on his position as deputy leader of the Labour party.

    If he'd been as keen to uncover Labour misbehaviour as Tory I'd have more time for him - but given a former Labour MP and current Lord is now facing charges he seemed strangely uncurious on that front.....like Newsnight, I wonder if the opportunity to 'stick one to the Tories' has clouded his objectivity.....
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK..The only way to stop the rise is to leave the EU...Anyone who votes to stay in is voting for more uncontrolled immigration..

    No kidding? ;)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    To an extent "the knowledge" is now redundant. Proper insurance and maintenence of vehicles, screening of drivers for criminal records and acceptance by Uber that they have an employers responsibility do remain essential though.

    I very rarely use taxis of any sort, in the UK at least.

    I believe there were regulations regarding the watering and feeding of horses for the hansom can driver. Some regulation will indeed be necessary, on the lines you suggest, but other countries seem to manage quite well without “the knowledge”.
    The key is that Uber needs to take on employers liability. If a vehicle is defective and Uber is sued then it will ensure good compliance.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016

    MikeK..The only way to stop the rise is to leave the EU...Anyone who votes to stay in is voting for more uncontrolled immigration..

    And emigration. How many Brits work in the EU, let alone those who have moved to places with better climates for their retirement?

    I wonder, will Brits in Spai (etc) who are still entitled to vote in the UK will vote, and which way they will, if they do!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,750
    I must have been living in a cave, but I always book a minicab from home/a friend's or get in a black cab.

    Is uber a London thing ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    I’ver had to snip this, but Dr F said
    "The key is that Uber needs to take on employers liability. If a vehicle is defective and Uber is sued then it will ensure good compliance.
    "

    Aren’t Uber’s drivers self-employed sub-contractors? How does this work on building sites with self-employed electricians and carpenters (etc)?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,830
    Morning all,

    Talking of leadership. I see Alan Johnson has undertaken to lead on the EU campaign. If he manages to win (big if at the moment) then might that set him up for the leadership? It'll certainly remind people what they are missing. I have some small coverage on him at 26/1 but you can still get between 8 and 14 on BF, although not much money about.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281
    Paywall - but for those with access:

    Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 7m7 minutes ago
    Devastating, important piece by @DAaronovitch on Panorama and Tom Watson

    John Rentoul ‏@JohnRentoul 8m8 minutes ago
    This is forensic by @DAaronovitch on allegations against Leon Brittan, & damning of Labour's deputy leader: Times £

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4578322.ece
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,243
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    I think Uber is a terrible company. They hide behind the consumer advantage and being a disruptive company but basically think they can ride roughshod over regulation and disclaim all responsibility for the consequences of their actions. That is an unacceptable side to capitalism.

    Boris is just defending vested interest. Not good. His proposals are simple to entrench a monopoly to the detriment of consumers.

    I'd look at addressing some of the real concerns about Uber - requiring regular vehicle checks, requiring the company to take out insurance on the fleet, establishing that Uber bears the responsibility for the actions of its drivers (ie that there is an employer-employee relationship rather than this "self-employed agent" bullshit). Those would all be reasonable things to address.
    Calm down Charles. It's only a taxi; it's not micro-surgery.

    The market will sort it out. Or should be able to. Boris is all over the shop on this, but the shop is firmly on the wrong side of everything.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    MikeK..The only way to stop the rise is to leave the EU...Anyone who votes to stay in is voting for more uncontrolled immigration..

    And emigration. How many Brits work in the EU, let alone those who have moved to places with better climates for their retirement?

    I wonder, will Brits in Spai (etc) who are still entitled to vote in the UK will vote, and which way they will, if they do!
    Such a spurious argument, the majority of ex pats in Spain are relatively well off, an undoubted boost to the Spanish economy. To even hint that Spain wants rid of these people is ridiculous.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876

    I’ver had to snip this, but Dr F said
    "The key is that Uber needs to take on employers liability. If a vehicle is defective and Uber is sued then it will ensure good compliance.

    "

    Aren’t Uber’s drivers self-employed sub-contractors? How does this work on building sites with self-employed electricians and carpenters (etc)?

    The building contractor would take out comprehensive insurance, including liability to third parties caused by the actions of sub-contractors.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240

    Paywall - but for those with access:

    Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 7m7 minutes ago
    Devastating, important piece by @DAaronovitch on Panorama and Tom Watson

    John Rentoul ‏@JohnRentoul 8m8 minutes ago
    This is forensic by @DAaronovitch on allegations against Leon Brittan, & damning of Labour's deputy leader: Times £

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4578322.ece

    As I've said many times before: Labour is truly the nasty party.

    And as I've also said: Labour might well regret electing Watson as deputy. He's already has to resign twice. A third resignation seems very likely to me; he just cannot help himself.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,015

    Morning all,

    Talking of leadership. I see Alan Johnson has undertaken to lead on the EU campaign. If he manages to win (big if at the moment) then might that set him up for the leadership? It'll certainly remind people what they are missing. I have some small coverage on him at 26/1 but you can still get between 8 and 14 on BF, although not much money about.

    I've been suggesting Portillo lead the out campaign. That would be unintentionally hilarious.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,240
    edited 2015 07
    On Uber: it's like Boris and the taxi drivers are trying to hold back the tide. Can anyone think of an occasion where improvements in technology has been held off successfully for a sustained period?

    They're the new Luddites.

    Edit: I'm not sure I've ever been in a black cab, and I lived in London for four years.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016

    MikeK..The only way to stop the rise is to leave the EU...Anyone who votes to stay in is voting for more uncontrolled immigration..

    And emigration. How many Brits work in the EU, let alone those who have moved to places with better climates for their retirement?

    I wonder, will Brits in Spai (etc) who are still entitled to vote in the UK will vote, and which way they will, if they do!
    Such a spurious argument, the majority of ex pats in Spain are relatively well off, an undoubted boost to the Spanish economy. To even hint that Spain wants rid of these people is ridiculous.
    If you'd read the post before replying, you’d see I’m not suggesting for one moment that Spain doesn’t want Brits. I’m not entirely sure, though, that in some cases they’re not becoming a drain on the local health and social care services. I’m suggesting that if we leave the EU it will become more difficult for us to go to livde in Spain.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    Charles is correct: there are legitimate criticisms of Uber that need to be addressed in the way it tries to use the subcontracting model to avoid taxes and liability. But Boris is not addressing those but inventing spurious requirements to protect black cabs. If this is the way he looks to regulate markets he shows a real lack of economic understanding and should not be in charge on a national level.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,243

    On Uber: it's like Boris and the taxi drivers are trying to hold back the tide. Can anyone think of an occasion where improvements in technology has been held off successfully for a sustained period?

    They're the new Luddites.

    They're trying with HFT.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited 2015 07
    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..
  • TudorRoseTudorRose Posts: 1,683

    MikeK..The only way to stop the rise is to leave the EU...Anyone who votes to stay in is voting for more uncontrolled immigration..

    No, it is controlled - just not by us!
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    I wonder whether some senior police officers might be standing in the pillory soon enough as well.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    MikeK..The only way to stop the rise is to leave the EU...Anyone who votes to stay in is voting for more uncontrolled immigration..

    And emigration. How many Brits work in the EU, let alone those who have moved to places with better climates for their retirement?

    I wonder, will Brits in Spai (etc) who are still entitled to vote in the UK will vote, and which way they will, if they do!
    Such a spurious argument, the majority of ex pats in Spain are relatively well off, an undoubted boost to the Spanish economy. To even hint that Spain wants rid of these people is ridiculous.
    If you'd read the post before replying, you’d see I’m not suggesting for one moment that Spain doesn’t want Brits. I’m not entirely sure, though, that in some cases they’re not becoming a drain on the local health and social care services. I’m suggesting that if we leave the EU it will become more difficult for us to go to livde in Spain.
    Why will it?

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    Sean_F said:

    I’ver had to snip this, but Dr F said
    "The key is that Uber needs to take on employers liability. If a vehicle is defective and Uber is sued then it will ensure good compliance.

    "

    Aren’t Uber’s drivers self-employed sub-contractors? How does this work on building sites with self-employed electricians and carpenters (etc)?
    The building contractor would take out comprehensive insurance, including liability to third parties caused by the actions of sub-contractors.

    That’s what I thought, but is that mandatory or just good practice? A couple of years ago we had a kitchen fitted and I can’t recall that we were told that the company which supplied it had any over-arching agreement for such liability with the various subbies.
    Might have missed it in the small print, of course.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Nothing could be more straightforward, we simply copy what Australia and Canada do.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    JEO said:

    I know I am not a Tory, but I can see very little that's original, interesting or engaging about Teresa May. She clearly understands that Osborne will have to be challenged from the right and her less than subtle speech yesterday shows she definitely wants the top job, but what does she actually offer apart from not being Osborne? Being nasty about immigrants only gets you so far. Given where Labour is, the Tories do not need a safe pair of hands or to go searching for UKIP votes. They have the luxury of being able to go for a lot more than that.

    Please give me one quote where she has been nasty about immigrants. This is a myth the left is peddling. Her tone was reasoned, calm, and focused on the scale of immigration, not immigrants themselves.
    A distinction without a difference, methinks.

    It is not possible to say anything on the subject that is not a dog-whistle.

    I can't work out if you're serious. Are you arguing those who wish to reduce immigration should not be able to make their case? Because that is what Kirkup and others seem to be implying.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Nothing could be more straightforward, we simply copy what Australia and Canada do.
    Moving to Australia isn’t that simple.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,830

    Morning all,

    Talking of leadership. I see Alan Johnson has undertaken to lead on the EU campaign. If he manages to win (big if at the moment) then might that set him up for the leadership? It'll certainly remind people what they are missing. I have some small coverage on him at 26/1 but you can still get between 8 and 14 on BF, although not much money about.

    I've been suggesting Portillo lead the out campaign. That would be unintentionally hilarious.
    That would be good. But he's said he won't do it I believe. He argues there shouldn't be a referendum; or at least he was a few months ago.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Good morning all. It's also fair. If we don't want people moving here and living off the taxpayer, simple reciprocity demands that we apply the same standards.

    One of the issues we have pre-referendum is that much of the electorate don't remember how Europe was before the EU proper. It was straightforward to move around and (dare I say it) migrate. You just had to have either money, a job, or both.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Nothing could be more straightforward, we simply copy what Australia and Canada do.
    Moving to Australia isn’t that simple.
    Exactly, as Mr Dodd points out you must prove you are self supporting. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Spain or any other EU country wouldn't welcome our retired folk, they support whole communities in Spain.

  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Some people are forgetting that Theresa May has cover as one of the very first modernisers, that's before either Cameron or Osborne, who critiqued her own party heavily back in 2002.

    I think the divisions in reactions over her speech represents the discomfort of the commentariat in robustly discussing immigration. Amongst voters as a whole, there are now overwhelming numbers for whom this is their number one issue.

    This disconnect between political and Joe Public opinion is usually associated with left wing media and politicians, and to most people outside that cosy circle, often looks ludicrous. This is a fine example as is Labour deciding that it lost the election because it wasn't left wing enough. Labour recognising its stupidity asap is an existential requirement.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    JEO said:

    Charles is correct: there are legitimate criticisms of Uber that need to be addressed in the way it tries to use the subcontracting model to avoid taxes and liability. But Boris is not addressing those but inventing spurious requirements to protect black cabs. If this is the way he looks to regulate markets he shows a real lack of economic understanding and should not be in charge on a national level.

    I think that this is unfair. Boris is arguing that he has to enforce the regulations as they are now. At the same time, he wants the regulations changed. I don't agree with him; but he has a point.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449
    Getting really frustrated with Lancaster, he needs to go. The picking of Sam Burgess over Luther Burrell is one of the major factors in England's failure. Leaving out a proven try scorer, skilled player and someone who is well liked among the players for an untested, unproven Rugby League player was a stupid decision. Not having Burrell on the pitch against Wales really, really hurt us and Lancaster is failing to own up to the decision to favour Burgess when the rest of the country knew that Burrell or even Twelvetrees were better picks. Burrell's partnership with Jonathan Joseph was something that proved to be highly effective in the 6N, what possessed Lancaster to break it up for the RWC is something that needs to be investigated by the RFU.

    Who replaces SL is also a big question.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,015
    I seem to remember when I first arrived in Manchester as a student being encouraged by the police to use black cabs for insurance reasons (presumably in case of an accident). Never thought a lot more about it until now.

    I haven't been to London for years but there's part of me that thinks Boris is a TRUE conservative who understands heritage London - the red mail boxes, the black cabs and horseguard's parade - the quirks that tourists love.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    You thick turnip

    And the level of debate we have come to expect from the SNP too...
    Natland is a hermetically sealed universe, secure from doubt and the temptations of nuance. A network of committed newspapers and websites allows the most fervent to wall themselves off from upsetting facts. When you read every day that the SNP are plucky patriots under fire from quislings who lie to serve their masters in London, you will become angry as you strain to rationalise away evidence to the contrary.

    One normally savvy nationalist blogger enraged by the Thomson coverage harrumphs: “We might just not open the papers at all and be better informed”. The certain are in possession of the answers; they have no need of questions.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/article4578383.ece
    No point debating with you , you are fixated on hatred of SNP and I cannot believe I was even stupid enough to reply to one of your pathetic posts. I will resume normal service and ignore your second hand drivel. Come back if you ever get to the point where you have your own opinion on anything.

    Christ! You were debating?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788

    Paywall - but for those with access:

    Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 7m7 minutes ago
    Devastating, important piece by @DAaronovitch on Panorama and Tom Watson

    John Rentoul ‏@JohnRentoul 8m8 minutes ago
    This is forensic by @DAaronovitch on allegations against Leon Brittan, & damning of Labour's deputy leader: Times £

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4578322.ece

    This is what happens when you're in a postion of power and use it to puruse both personal crusades and personal vendettas
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    It's an absolutely cracking piece. Mr Aaronovitch did a similar one a few weeks ago about unfounded allegations and their poisonous nature being devoured with glee by those with an agenda.

    Paywall - but for those with access:

    Iain Martin ‏@iainmartin1 7m7 minutes ago
    Devastating, important piece by @DAaronovitch on Panorama and Tom Watson

    John Rentoul ‏@JohnRentoul 8m8 minutes ago
    This is forensic by @DAaronovitch on allegations against Leon Brittan, & damning of Labour's deputy leader: Times £

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4578322.ece

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876

    Sean_F said:

    I’ver had to snip this, but Dr F said
    "The key is that Uber needs to take on employers liability. If a vehicle is defective and Uber is sued then it will ensure good compliance.

    "

    Aren’t Uber’s drivers self-employed sub-contractors? How does this work on building sites with self-employed electricians and carpenters (etc)?
    The building contractor would take out comprehensive insurance, including liability to third parties caused by the actions of sub-contractors.
    That’s what I thought, but is that mandatory or just good practice? A couple of years ago we had a kitchen fitted and I can’t recall that we were told that the company which supplied it had any over-arching agreement for such liability with the various subbies.
    Might have missed it in the small print, of course.

    I don't know if there's a specific regulatory requirement. But the law relating to negligence, breach of contract, and nuisance would make such insurance essential.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451
    JEO said:

    JEO said:

    I know I am not a Tory, but I can see very little that's original, interesting or engaging about Teresa May. She clearly understands that Osborne will have to be challenged from the right and her less than subtle speech yesterday shows she definitely wants the top job, but what does she actually offer apart from not being Osborne? Being nasty about immigrants only gets you so far. Given where Labour is, the Tories do not need a safe pair of hands or to go searching for UKIP votes. They have the luxury of being able to go for a lot more than that.

    Please give me one quote where she has been nasty about immigrants. This is a myth the left is peddling. Her tone was reasoned, calm, and focused on the scale of immigration, not immigrants themselves.
    A distinction without a difference, methinks.

    It is not possible to say anything on the subject that is not a dog-whistle.

    I can't work out if you're serious. Are you arguing those who wish to reduce immigration should not be able to make their case? Because that is what Kirkup and others seem to be implying.
    Kirkup and others would prefer the subject not be raised at all. But, if it is, it should only be to loudly praise the untrammelled benefits of immigration.
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,372

    Morning all,

    Talking of leadership. I see Alan Johnson has undertaken to lead on the EU campaign. If he manages to win (big if at the moment) then might that set him up for the leadership? It'll certainly remind people what they are missing. I have some small coverage on him at 26/1 but you can still get between 8 and 14 on BF, although not much money about.

    I've been suggesting Portillo lead the out campaign. That would be unintentionally hilarious.
    I lived in London for 7 years and only used a cab once or twice. To be honest the Tube is usually faster and as I already had a travelcard, effectively free.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,451

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Spain's tourism boom took off in the 1960s, well before it joined the then EEC/EC. Existing property owners there would be entirely unaffected by EU exit and have permanent residency.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016
    John_M said:

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Good morning all. It's also fair. If we don't want people moving here and living off the taxpayer, simple reciprocity demands that we apply the same standards.

    One of the issues we have pre-referendum is that much of the electorate don't remember how Europe was before the EU proper. It was straightforward to move around and (dare I say it) migrate. You just had to have either money, a job, or both.
    Quite. Who else remembers "Auf Weidersehn Pet”? However, we all know, thanks to the right wing press about all the Poles etc moving here. How many other Brits have done what a relation of mine has done; moved to Germany, set up a business and prospered? OPr otherwise supported themselves without a job to go to?
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    Charles said:

    Pulpstar said:

    She tried a sip of the first bowl. So sweet and warm, but she was watching her figure and knew she'd grow fat and sloth with the amount of sugar that was left on this particular bowl of porridge.

    The next bowl was cold with no salt or sugar for flavouring. Ah she knew it would be great for her figure, but it was very unappealing and unappetising. It was also a little cold.So she passed it up.

    Then she arrived at a bowl labelled 'George'. This porridge tastes great, but I know I won't grow too fat on this one she mused. So she ate it all up.

    Some hours later Boris showed up after his daily walk in the woods. He saw a girl sleeping in the house, but she was in George's bed, not his !

    A girl being in someone else's bed hasn't stop Boris in the past...
    Tell us, tell us - a threesome. Are there photos?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,876

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Nothing could be more straightforward, we simply copy what Australia and Canada do.
    Moving to Australia isn’t that simple.
    Exactly, as Mr Dodd points out you must prove you are self supporting. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Spain or any other EU country wouldn't welcome our retired folk, they support whole communities in Spain.

    I would consider it entirely reasonable for British people to have no automatic right to move to Spain, but rather for the Spanish government to grant or refuse permission on the basis of national self-interest.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,418
    Line from DC's speech:

    "The nasty party is here to stay and we are turning up the volume"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    Line from DC's speech:

    "The nasty party is here to stay and we are turning up the volume"

    Not sure that was from Jeremy Corbyn talking to the rabble in Manchester.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Ceri Thomas, Editor Panorama

    A group of MPs became fixed on the idea of holding the police's feet to the fire, but the line between doing that and interfering in justice is a thin one. Some politicians may have crossed it.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34442292

    However, from the same article:
    And then there's the press. At the end of that run of crises, its reputation can rarely have been lower - cheerfully hacking the phones of murder victims, miserably incompetent at investigating Jimmy Savile's crimes.
    ISTR that the Sun did make allegations about Savile, and later had to pay damages to the BBC star. It's also ignoring Panorama's own hideous record wrt McAlpine, and the BBC's wrt Savile.

    And later:
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/02/sun-jimmy-savile-surrey-police
    Wasn't it Newsnight that had the McAlpine car crash? I thought Panorama came out of the debacle intact.
    Sorry, you are right. Oops.
    One does have to wonder how much Tom Watson's hand is in all of this.
    His hands are either deep in the muck, or he's been a very useful idiot. Either way, it does not reflect well on his position as deputy leader of the Labour party.
    Operation Fairbank was set up following claims by Labour MP Tom Watson in the House of Commons that the police should look afresh at claims of a "powerful paedophile network linked to Parliament and No 10".
    (snip)
    The information was passed to him by a journalist from the investigative news website Exaro.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elm_Guest_House_child_abuse_scandal#Claims_by_Tom_Watson_MP

    I don't think that being Deputy Leader of today's Labour party would reflect well on anyone.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Nothing could be more straightforward, we simply copy what Australia and Canada do.
    Moving to Australia isn’t that simple.
    I'd add that retiring to Canada, absent existing family there, is also not straightforward. I'm ineligible because, while reasonably wealthy, I'm not wealthy enough for their 'investor' program.
  • BaskervilleBaskerville Posts: 391
    edited 2015 07
    MaxPB said:

    Getting really frustrated with Lancaster, he needs to go. The picking of Sam Burgess over Luther Burrell is one of the major factors in England's failure. Leaving out a proven try scorer, skilled player and someone who is well liked among the players for an untested, unproven Rugby League player was a stupid decision. Not having Burrell on the pitch against Wales really, really hurt us and Lancaster is failing to own up to the decision to favour Burgess when the rest of the country knew that Burrell or even Twelvetrees were better picks. Burrell's partnership with Jonathan Joseph was something that proved to be highly effective in the 6N, what possessed Lancaster to break it up for the RWC is something that needs to be investigated by the RFU.

    Who replaces SL is also a big question.

    It wasn't the backs who lost us the matches, it was the forwards.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    John_M said:

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Good morning all. It's also fair. If we don't want people moving here and living off the taxpayer, simple reciprocity demands that we apply the same standards.

    One of the issues we have pre-referendum is that much of the electorate don't remember how Europe was before the EU proper. It was straightforward to move around and (dare I say it) migrate. You just had to have either money, a job, or both.
    I live here and am totally self-supporting but many ex-pats are less fortunate and rely on the Spanish NHS, etc. there might also be issues over taxation of English pensions. Many ex-pats are very worried about what the new arrangements might be and most will I suspect vote to remain as a result. Perfectly understandable and the onus is on those who want Brexit to address and allay those fears.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    As ever with a speech on immigration, a lot of shrieking and wailing about "the speech" but nobody picking out which particular lines they have a problem with.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    MaxPB said:

    Getting really frustrated with Lancaster, he needs to go. The picking of Sam Burgess over Luther Burrell is one of the major factors in England's failure. Leaving out a proven try scorer, skilled player and someone who is well liked among the players for an untested, unproven Rugby League player was a stupid decision. Not having Burrell on the pitch against Wales really, really hurt us and Lancaster is failing to own up to the decision to favour Burgess when the rest of the country knew that Burrell or even Twelvetrees were better picks. Burrell's partnership with Jonathan Joseph was something that proved to be highly effective in the 6N, what possessed Lancaster to break it up for the RWC is something that needs to be investigated by the RFU.

    Who replaces SL is also a big question.

    It wasn't the backs who lost us the matches, it was the forwards.
    Being unable to outscore the opposition lost us the match and dropping a proven try scorer like Burrell in favour of an unproven player from RL is a massive factor in it.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    I got £25 on her on Betfair last night at ~9/1.

    I still think that's a steal. If she can get to the final two - her weakness will be her MP base, but Boris has the same problem - she has a good chance against Osborne.

    And therein lies hope for Labour.

    Why?

    Because a Tory party that moves rightwards gives a new Labour leader the opportunity to move back to the centre.

    You think the Tory party taking action to fulfil its 2015 manifesto pledge on immigration - the number one issue for voters - would be seen as moving rightwards?
    I'm with you CS. A desire for action on immigration is across the board, if anything with a bias to the left, hence UKIP's GE showing in Labour's heartlands.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    I’ver had to snip this, but Dr F said
    "The key is that Uber needs to take on employers liability. If a vehicle is defective and Uber is sued then it will ensure good compliance.

    "

    Aren’t Uber’s drivers self-employed sub-contractors? How does this work on building sites with self-employed electricians and carpenters (etc)?
    The building contractor would take out comprehensive insurance, including liability to third parties caused by the actions of sub-contractors.
    That’s what I thought, but is that mandatory or just good practice? A couple of years ago we had a kitchen fitted and I can’t recall that we were told that the company which supplied it had any over-arching agreement for such liability with the various subbies.
    Might have missed it in the small print, of course.
    I don't know if there's a specific regulatory requirement. But the law relating to negligence, breach of contract, and nuisance would make such insurance essential.

    I would imagine if you bought a kitchen or bathroom through say B+Q and arranged a fitter through them, that they would have covered by insurance.

    If you arranged a fitter seperately...maybe not so much, depends on the fitter.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    Line from DC's speech:

    "The nasty party is here to stay and we are turning up the volume"

    What line in the speech do you think is nasty? The precise quote please.

    The media bias over the last 24 hours has been shocking. It has entirely been from the 30% who are content with immigration levels with no criticism from the perspective of the 70% who might wonder why it has not dropped. The liberal metropolitan media bubble is in full swing trying to elbow aside the concerns of the general public for their own self interested agenda.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Any punitive rules imposed on Ex Pats in Europe would of course be reciprocated on their citizens residing in the UK....It would be a case of quid pro quo ..and common sense would no doubt prevail..I live in Italy and have free access to the Health system here..based on the fact that an Italian living in the UK has the same privileges..
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Hmm. Chris Evans *might* be the only presenter on new Top Gear. Not sure that'll work.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,830

    I got £25 on her on Betfair last night at ~9/1.

    I still think that's a steal. If she can get to the final two - her weakness will be her MP base, but Boris has the same problem - she has a good chance against Osborne.

    And therein lies hope for Labour.

    Why?

    Because a Tory party that moves rightwards gives a new Labour leader the opportunity to move back to the centre.

    You think the Tory party taking action to fulfil its 2015 manifesto pledge on immigration - the number one issue for voters - would be seen as moving rightwards?
    I'm with you CS. A desire for action on immigration is across the board, if anything with a bias to the left, hence UKIP's GE showing in Labour's heartlands.
    I don't see how on earth they can meet their manifesto commitment. Wasn't it something like get net migration down to 10s of thousands? Only an opt-out from free movement in EU or leaving EU will get them there.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    edited 2015 07
    Scott_P said:

    One does have to wonder how much Tom Watson's hand is in all of this.

    David Aaronovith in the Times is all about that
    All Mr Watson wanted, he said, was for a proper investigation to happen and justice to be done. And he concluded boldly: “Former home secretary Leon Brittan stands accused of multiple child rape. Many others knew of these allegations and chose to remain silent. I will not.”

    Last night, however, Mr Watson was indeed silent.

    Now Lady Brittan is attempting to find out from the Metropolitan police what has happened to the investigation, reopened at the insistence of Mr Watson. Last night, hours before the programme was broadcast, she received a letter from the Met finally confirming that inquiries had ceased for want of evidence.

    I fear it is more of a reply than she’ll get from the Labour deputy leader.
    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4578322.ece

    Watson is the leprous stump that remains of Gordon Brown's Labour Party in Westminster. The membership voted him Deputy due to his brilliant eyesight - being able to see everything that was wrong with News International whilst being blind to even worse excesses at Mirror Group.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited 2015 07

    On Uber: it's like Boris and the taxi drivers are trying to hold back the tide. Can anyone think of an occasion where improvements in technology has been held off successfully for a sustained period?

    They're the new Luddites.

    Edit: I'm not sure I've ever been in a black cab, and I lived in London for four years.

    Minicabs are London's great success story since Ken (or maybe Boris but I think it was Ken) tightened up the licence conditions and also limited the age of cars that can be used.

    Even outside of "executive cars" (aka posh minicabs) you will typically have a people carrier or high class saloon -- with Mercs more common than probably most private owners would expect.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788

    Hmm. Chris Evans *might* be the only presenter on new Top Gear. Not sure that'll work.

    There's him and his ego, no room for anyone else.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    John_M said:

    JEO said:

    Charles is correct: there are legitimate criticisms of Uber that need to be addressed in the way it tries to use the subcontracting model to avoid taxes and liability. But Boris is not addressing those but inventing spurious requirements to protect black cabs. If this is the way he looks to regulate markets he shows a real lack of economic understanding and should not be in charge on a national level.

    I think that this is unfair. Boris is arguing that he has to enforce the regulations as they are now. At the same time, he wants the regulations changed. I don't agree with him; but he has a point.
    But the changes he advocates are ridiculous ones. Mandatory cool down periods aren't addressing any problem except Uber prospering.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,918
    edited 2015 07

    F1: take as you will, but Ecclestone reckons F1 could be sold this year:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34460582

    Edited extra bit: good piece by McNish on the calendar:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/34456225

    Very good from McNish. Why are they in Sochi this weekend, and what the hell are they doing in Baku next year the same weekend as Le Mans?
    One hopes that Hulkenburg can get away with taking the weekend off F1 and show up the octogenarian dwarf in the process. He really can't get out quickly enough for the sake of the sport, which is dying in Europe and never really got started in the US. The move to pay TV just swells the dwarf's coffers while the reduction in audiences make sponsorship less attractive for the participants. It's a big mess.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,137
    Mr. Slackbladder, not just the absence of variety, but having one presenter means no bickering. And no challenges/races.

    Mr. Sandpit, McNish is a top bloke, ought to be commentating on TV alongside Coulthard.

    I share your unimpressed stance on the timing of the F1 calendar, regarding Le Mans.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The one great thing about Tom Watson is...he actually looks the part of a total shit..no makeup needed..Central Casting has excelled itself...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362

    Hmm. Chris Evans *might* be the only presenter on new Top Gear. Not sure that'll work.

    There's him and his ego, no room for anyone else.
    Even his ego can't do the Breakfast Show, TFI Friday and Top Gear at the same time.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,016

    Any punitive rules imposed on Ex Pats in Europe would of course be reciprocated on their citizens residing in the UK....It would be a case of quid pro quo ..and common sense would no doubt prevail..I live in Italy and have free access to the Health system here..based on the fact that an Italian living in the UK has the same privileges..

    They wouldn’t, I’m sure, be “punitive” rules. Just those applying to resident non-citizens from, say Algeria or Tunisia.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,918

    On Uber: it's like Boris and the taxi drivers are trying to hold back the tide. Can anyone think of an occasion where improvements in technology has been held off successfully for a sustained period?

    They're the new Luddites.

    Edit: I'm not sure I've ever been in a black cab, and I lived in London for four years.

    Minicabs are London's great success story since Ken (or maybe Boris but I think it was Ken) tightened up the licence conditions and also limited the age of cars that can be used.

    Even outside of "executive cars" (aka posh minicabs) you will typically have a people carrier or high class saloon -- with Mercs more common than probably most private owners would expect.
    Indeed. The biggest beneficiary of that is Addison Lee, who started off as a courier company and now also do a very good job of getting people around London. They even have motorbike minicabs for anyone mad enough who wants to beat the rush hour traffic.
  • mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,714

    On Uber: it's like Boris and the taxi drivers are trying to hold back the tide. Can anyone think of an occasion where improvements in technology has been held off successfully for a sustained period?

    They're the new Luddites.

    Absolutely true. And, as Uber's CEO says, they are not going to be profitable until they've got rid of the other guy in the cab with you (i.e. the driver). Taxis probably have another 20 years in them before they are obsolete, and will be feeling the pinch in 10.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Sean_F said:

    malcolmg said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I would rate May's chances ahead of Johnson's. Still, I doubt either will be PM.

    (Caveat: if she leads the "Out" charge, and "Out" wins, then that could change.)

    (To add: since Boris Johnson's article on Uber, I would rather cut my own hand off than vote for him in any capacity.)

    London black cabs are a closed shop.
    Boris and TFL's actions are utterly disgusting. Uber (and I'm sure other virtual taxi firms in time) is increasing choice and availability for consumers, while lowering prices. It allows flexible working for drivers (who give up a far smaller share of their earnings than they did when they worked for minicab firms).

    And it brings quality control: Uber drivers need to keep scoring 4.5/5.0, otherwise they get dropped from the system.

    I feel for taxi drivers, I really do. They spent three years educating themselves, and the value of that knowledge has declined. But regulation must always be consumer led. And the existence of Uber is unambiguously good for consumers. Artificial measures (5 minute cooldowns, for example) to try and make Uber less attractive are a travesty.

    I could never vote for Boris. I could never vote for a Conservative Party he led.
    Black cabs seem to be a real con. I got one from Heathrow recently to a meeting , just a few miles , almost £30 pounds. On the way back I got a private hire cab and it was £11. No wonder they do not like their monopoly being threatened.
    Speaking personally, black cabs are by far my preferred method of getting round central London, if I'm not walking.
    If black cabs and “the knowledge” are being rendered redundant by sat navs etc, isn’t that just the way of the world? After all, it was their grandfather’s superior technology which allowed them to supercede horse-drawn hansom cabs.
    Choice and competition seem the keys but with proper safety regulation
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    The attacks on Theresa May's speech are quite bizarre. As others have pointed out, the attacks from the likes of the Indy and from Labour are simple absurd: they are attacking stuff which bears no relation to anything she said.

    In terms of her leadership chances, the principal complaint one can make of the speech was that it was rather dry and technical. Boring, in fact. She's been a very good Home Secretary and is a safe pair of hands; one can easily see that she would make a decent leader and PM, but I don't think anyone is particularly enthused by her. She's not an inspiring speaker and she's not particularly good at answering questions - she tends to waffle. She's be an OK choice, but I think she won't be the choice which the party eventually makes. For a non-Osborne alternative, look to some of the younger figures.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,449

    Mr. Slackbladder, not just the absence of variety, but having one presenter means no bickering. And no challenges/races.

    Mr. Sandpit, McNish is a top bloke, ought to be commentating on TV alongside Coulthard.

    I share your unimpressed stance on the timing of the F1 calendar, regarding Le Mans.

    I think Amazon will have that aspect of Top Gear covered with their new show so the BBC might want an all new formula for the original. Single presenter with weekly guests from the world of motoring is what I have heard. It is going to more serious than Top Gear ever was, a bit more like Fifth Gear.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    SNP donor wins big ferry contract...

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQs8RzpWoAAPPvL.jpg:large
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,788
    MaxPB said:

    Mr. Slackbladder, not just the absence of variety, but having one presenter means no bickering. And no challenges/races.

    Mr. Sandpit, McNish is a top bloke, ought to be commentating on TV alongside Coulthard.

    I share your unimpressed stance on the timing of the F1 calendar, regarding Le Mans.

    I think Amazon will have that aspect of Top Gear covered with their new show so the BBC might want an all new formula for the original. Single presenter with weekly guests from the world of motoring is what I have heard. It is going to more serious than Top Gear ever was, a bit more like Fifth Gear.
    If thats the case, they should have just ditched the 'Top Gear' brand and make something brand new if they didn't want it to be compared with the old one.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    MaxPB said:


    It is going to more serious than Top Gear ever was, a bit more like Fifth Gear.

    Good luck selling that around the world, Beeb.....

    Y-a-w-n.................



  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    Ceri Thomas, Editor Panorama

    A group of MPs became fixed on the idea of holding the police's feet to the fire, but the line between doing that and interfering in justice is a thin one. Some politicians may have crossed it.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34442292

    However, from the same article:
    And then there's the press. At the end of that run of crises, its reputation can rarely have been lower - cheerfully hacking the phones of murder victims, miserably incompetent at investigating Jimmy Savile's crimes.
    ISTR that the Sun did make allegations about Savile, and later had to pay damages to the BBC star. It's also ignoring Panorama's own hideous record wrt McAlpine, and the BBC's wrt Savile.

    And later:
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/02/sun-jimmy-savile-surrey-police
    Wasn't it Newsnight that had the McAlpine car crash? I thought Panorama came out of the debacle intact.
    Sorry, you are right. Oops.
    One does have to wonder how much Tom Watson's hand is in all of this.
    His hands are either deep in the muck, or he's been a very useful idiot. Either way, it does not reflect well on his position as deputy leader of the Labour party.
    If he'd been as keen to uncover Labour misbehaviour as Tory I'd have more time for him - but given a former Labour MP and current Lord is now facing charges he seemed strangely uncurious on that front.....like Newsnight, I wonder if the opportunity to 'stick one to the Tories' has clouded his objectivity.....

    That assumes he has objectivity to mask. Does self interest qualify as objectivity?
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited 2015 07
    Is there a more punchable face in modern day politics than Tom Watson ???
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Sort of Top Gear with William Woollard Mk II?
    MaxPB said:

    Mr. Slackbladder, not just the absence of variety, but having one presenter means no bickering. And no challenges/races.

    Mr. Sandpit, McNish is a top bloke, ought to be commentating on TV alongside Coulthard.

    I share your unimpressed stance on the timing of the F1 calendar, regarding Le Mans.

    I think Amazon will have that aspect of Top Gear covered with their new show so the BBC might want an all new formula for the original. Single presenter with weekly guests from the world of motoring is what I have heard. It is going to more serious than Top Gear ever was, a bit more like Fifth Gear.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Sean_F said:

    OKC.. People from the UK have always been able to move to and live in other European countries...well before the EU was invented...It is a simple procedure..you ask permission first..then fill in the qualifying requirements..one of which is to be financially self supporting...seemed to work well then and it would still work after Brexit..

    Nothing could be more straightforward, we simply copy what Australia and Canada do.
    Moving to Australia isn’t that simple.
    Exactly, as Mr Dodd points out you must prove you are self supporting. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that Spain or any other EU country wouldn't welcome our retired folk, they support whole communities in Spain.

    I would consider it entirely reasonable for British people to have no automatic right to move to Spain, but rather for the Spanish government to grant or refuse permission on the basis of national self-interest.
    Exactly

  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    Oily slug of a man.

    Is there a more punchable face in modern day politics than Tom Watson ???

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,918
    MaxPB said:

    Mr. Slackbladder, not just the absence of variety, but having one presenter means no bickering. And no challenges/races.

    Mr. Sandpit, McNish is a top bloke, ought to be commentating on TV alongside Coulthard.

    I share your unimpressed stance on the timing of the F1 calendar, regarding Le Mans.

    I think Amazon will have that aspect of Top Gear covered with their new show so the BBC might want an all new formula for the original. Single presenter with weekly guests from the world of motoring is what I have heard. It is going to more serious than Top Gear ever was, a bit more like Fifth Gear.
    Well that won't attract a fraction of the audience of the old show. Old TG worked because it was about the only non-PC blokey show on TV, with the dynamic between the three presenters being the USP. 5th Gear but with supercars won't have the same appeal.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    The attacks on Theresa May's speech are quite bizarre. As others have pointed out, the attacks from the likes of the Indy and from Labour are simple absurd: they are attacking stuff which bears no relation to anything she said.

    In terms of her leadership chances, the principal complaint one can make of the speech was that it was rather dry and technical. Boring, in fact. She's been a very good Home Secretary and is a safe pair of hands; one can easily see that she would make a decent leader and PM, but I don't think anyone is particularly enthused by her. She's not an inspiring speaker and she's not particularly good at answering questions - she tends to waffle. She's be an OK choice, but I think she won't be the choice which the party eventually makes. For a non-Osborne alternative, look to some of the younger figures.

    I think the jury is out on her record as Home Secretary. Even overlooking the failure to reduce immigration - or even stop it rising - she has upset the right by handing powers to the EU and liberals from all wings of the party in things like the snooper's charter and limits on free speech. And I can't think of any major successes she can tout. If your platform is you don't have good interview skills or speechmaking ability but you have a good record, you need something more impressive than that. Perhaps if immigration suddenly falls to under 200k she will have something to tout but I do not see it.

    The quietly and competently getting on with the job candidate is Hammond.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    JEO said:

    The quietly and competently getting on with the job candidate is Hammond.

    Yes, I agree with that - he'd be a better choice on that basis.
  • Plato_SaysPlato_Says Posts: 11,822
    The number of homes where no one has a job has dropped to a record low as welfare reforms encourage people to find work.

    Fewer than a sixth of households headed by a person of working age now live entirely on benefits, official figures revealed yesterday. This is the lowest proportion since numbers of workless homes were first counted nearly 20 years ago. Since David Cameron entered Downing Street in 2010, the number of workless homes has dropped by 684,000 and the number of children living in homes where no one works has fallen by nearly half a million.

    The Office for National Statistics, which produced the figures, said the latest fall was mainly because single parents have been taking jobs. They are going back to work because benefit curbs have made it much more difficult for many to live on state handouts, the ONS said.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3262722/Huge-drop-number-homes-no-one-works-sixth-households-headed-person-working-age-live-entirely-benefits.html#ixzz3ns6pFWdq
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,362
    TGOHF said:

    SNP donor wins big ferry contract...

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQs8RzpWoAAPPvL.jpg:large

    It's a "just reward".....

    Zimbabwe, here we come....
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