Do you have any evidence that people who identify as "religious" are any less hedonistic than those who don't? Perhaps people become "religious" because hedonism has failed to deliver for them.
As for your view of Islam, the Crusades and the Reconquista in Spain suggest otherwise.
Those were land struggles, not migrations. Moreover, the rather large number of indigenous Muslims in the Crusader states were treated better under the Franks than they were under their previous colonial masters, an awkward fact for those who seek to condemn the Crusades as a long war of Christian aggression against Islam (e.g. Terry Jones) and something that is therefore frequently ignored. For example, Muslims did not have to pay a dhimmi tax to the Kings of Jerusalem, and were granted full access to legal proceedings including the right to swear on the Koran in court. It's not a complete coincidence that Salah ad-Din was a Kurd who reconquered them from outside rather than inside.
If you are interested, I would recommend Ousamah ibn-Munqidh's Memoirs of an Arab-Syrian Gentlemen, where he discusses a case he brought against a knight who had seized one of his ships (the court gave him full redress) and his discussion of the way a Crusader knight kept strict order in his township, including clamping down on an anti-Muslim riot. He also some very funny anecdotes about the lives of the Crusaders among themselves. I think it's mostly available online - try Fordham University's Internet Medieval Sourcebook.
With regard to the Reconquista, I don't know enough either way to say for definite.
The Reconquista was simply an expulsion. Whether it was primarily motivated by religion or by ethnicity I couldn't say. Actually, I doubt the Reconquistadores themselves cared either way. As you say, it was a land struggle.
As to the Crusades, there were examples of good and bad behaviour on both sides.
The reason for the decay of religion in the West, I think, is the scientific paradigm and its negative impact on the credibility of an afterlife.
Britain Elects @britainelects 39s40 seconds ago Understood 400,000 have voted in the Labour leadership election. 340,000 voted in 2010. Result expected at 1130hrs.
A beautiful day here today.. mid 20s..been to the vinyard for a few litres of wine and there is an outside beer fest in the local village this afternoon..I shall take a gentle stroll in the sun and partake.. Meanwhile. Labour are about to elect the leader they so richly deserve..the one that will fulfill all of their dynastic dreams and lead them on to Political Glory... Meanwhile... When will the United Kingdom get the opposition it needs..maybe I should come back and ask in a decade or so..
Corbyn woman on Sky saying that "large numbers of Labour MPs out of touch with their constituents" (the ones that just elected them?) and "if they decide to leave the party then that's just got to happen..."
Higher than the GE, Corbyn bringing out the non voters?
@theousherwood: Labour source has just told me - turnout at 76.3 per cent.
Surely turnout among those who paid £3 for the privilege will be damn close to 100%, with only those votes disbarred and lost in the post not counting?
Final thought before I go shopping. On election day, after the Morley and Outwood moment, Nick Robinson and Laura Kuenssberg suggested Ed Balls might become a popular figure, partly because of what they confidently expected to be his high profile as the husband 'of the next leader of the Opposition.'
Well, that was clearly an error based on a lack of knowledge of just how crazy the Labour movement have become.* But where does it leave Balls vis a vis the Labour movement? Completely out in the cold? I think that would be a mistake for them. While I don't for an instant think Balls is the intellectual and political colossus his less than brilliant sycophants in the media think him to be (the fact that anyone can see Balls and the Miliband brothers as world-beating intellectuals is slightly worrying) there's no doubt he's far more intelligent, far more politically savvy and far more experienced than any likely senior shadow minister under Corbyn. Moreover, he's a tough so-and-so who's always up for a fight (a bit like Tom Watson and Mary Creagh, but shrewder).
Labour is not so awash with talent at the moment they can afford to pass up Balls, even though he has stated he will not be returning to Parliament. If he cannot be found some form of campaigning role, their political chances will be diminished.
*That is not to suggest Cooper has had a good campaign or demonstrated past doubt that she deserves or wants the leadership. Merely that she was still by far the best of the candidates on offer.
A thoughtful colleague this evening (who like me still quite likes Blair) said he voted for Corbyn not because he expected him to become PM but because it was necessary to stop the party's drift to becoming an ersatz Tory party, a little milder and a little more generous but essentially the same thing. He sees it as a resetting exercise to redefine Labour as a left-wing party - not necessarily indefinitely under Corbyn if he proved unpopular. I suspect Corbyn would think that a perfectly reasonable attitude. ==============================
Yes , that's what they intend to do but what actually happens will be completely unscripted It reminds me in some ways of what Gorbachev wanted to do by reforming the Soviet Union but it all collapsed alike a house of cards The LP is a hollowed out shell of its former self , hopelessly anachronistic and unable to compete in a postmodern UK , the last thing it needs is a so called leader who will reinforce those failures ; indeed , Jeremy Corbyn is going to lead the LP into oblivion
Yes. It is an idea whose time has gone. And I do like the analogy with Gorbachev.
But lets face it , Gorbachev was trying to reform and drag the S U towards the postmodern West and to the political centre , whereas Corbyn is taking an already moribund and anachronistic LP further Left at precisely the moment in time when they need to be rapidly moving towards the centre to save themselves from political oblivion
Corbyn is a two dimensional , quasi Marxist and Marxism is a pseudo secular religion of class
I just watched a remarkable exchange between Newsnight's James O'Brien and a tory MP from last night.
O'Brien asked him a question, and the reply was nothing except a critique of Newsnight's biased coverage.
The MP effectively told O'Brien to go p8ss up a rope.
A reflection of where the tories think they are right now...???
Was it a fairly new MP? I find a lot of the newer breed are less subtle in some ways than more experienced ones in trying to counterattack the modem aggressive or pushy interviewer, to the point they launch counter attacks before they are actually attacked.
But I would not be surprised if you are right that it is a reflection of the current attitude, regardless of how experienced the MP was.
Corbyn woman on Sky saying that "large numbers of Labour MPs out of touch with their constituents" (the ones that just elected them?) and "if they decide to leave the party then that's just got to happen..."
Talk on Sky that Corbyn has won 2/3rds of the vote...
I would think that is too high but who knows
If he's won by that large a margin, he's there till 2020, maybe even until death, unless he resigns voluntarily. Any thought of a challenge has to be banished.
May I be the first to offer condolences to the likes of @SouthamObserver and all those others who care about Labour and what it has to offer the country, who are in for what seems to be a very painful day.
A thoughtful colleague this evening (who like me still quite likes Blair) said he voted for Corbyn not because he expected him to become PM but because it was necessary to stop the party's drift to becoming an ersatz Tory party, a little milder and a little more generous but essentially the same thing. He sees it as a resetting exercise to redefine Labour as a left-wing party - not necessarily indefinitely under Corbyn if he proved unpopular. I suspect Corbyn would think that a perfectly reasonable attitude. ==============================
Yes , that's what they intend to do but what actually happens will be completely unscripted It reminds me in some ways of what Gorbachev wanted to do by reforming the Soviet Union but it all collapsed alike a house of cards The LP is a hollowed out shell of its former self , hopelessly anachronistic and unable to compete in a postmodern UK , the last thing it needs is a so called leader who will reinforce those failures ; indeed , Jeremy Corbyn is going to lead the LP into oblivion
Yes. It is an idea whose time has gone. And I do like the analogy with Gorbachev.
But lets face it , Gorbachev was trying to reform and drag the S U towards the postmodern West and to the political centre , whereas Corbyn is taking an already moribund and anachronistic LP further Left at precisely the moment in time when they need to be rapidly moving towards the centre to save themselves from political oblivion
Corbyn is a two dimensional , quasi Marxist and Marxism is a pseudo secular religion of class
I broadly agree. Gorbachev was destroyed because the USSR was an empire - the Russians wanted their leader to keep it, whilst all the other nationalities wanted to see the back of it. So maybe the analogy has some merit.
Do you have any evidence that people who identify as "religious" are any less hedonistic than those who don't? Perhaps people become "religious" because hedonism has failed to deliver for them.
As for your view of Islam, the Crusades and the Reconquista in Spain suggest otherwise.
Those were land struggles, not migrations. Moreover, the rather large number of indigenous Muslims in the Crusader states were treated better under the Franks than they were under their previous colonial masters, an awkward fact for those who seek to condemn the Crusades as a long war of Christian aggression against Islam (e.g. Terry Jones) and something that is therefore frequently ignored. For example, Muslims did not have to pay a dhimmi tax to the Kings of Jerusalem, and were granted full access to legal proceedings including the right to swear on the Koran in court. It's not a complete coincidence that Salah ad-Din was a Kurd who reconquered them from outside rather than inside.
If you are interested, I would recommend Ousamah ibn-Munqidh's Memoirs of an Arab-Syrian Gentlemen, where he discusses a case he brought against a knight who had seized one of his ships (the court gave him full redress) and his discussion of the way a Crusader knight kept strict order in his township, including clamping down on an anti-Muslim riot. He also some very funny anecdotes about the lives of the Crusaders among themselves. I think it's mostly available online - try Fordham University's Internet Medieval Sourcebook.
With regard to the Reconquista, I don't know enough either way to say for definite.
The Crusader states were religiously tolerant. So was Spain, prior to the late 15th century. Another reconquered state that was religiously tolerant was Norman Sicily.
BBC political correspondent Robin Brant describes the scenes greeting Jeremy Corbyn as he arrived at the conference centre. Some were chanting the socialist anthem the Red Flag (always sung at the end of Labour party conferences) which would be "music to the ears" of some of Labour's traditional supporters, he says. But for others, notably the Blairites in the party, "it will be nightmare music", Robin adds.
May I humbly suggest all non Labour posters should observe an hours silence from 11am to Noon to allow the euphoria, much needed after May, for the red posters to enjoy their moment...
I just watched a remarkable exchange between Newsnight's James O'Brien and a tory MP from last night.
O'Brien asked him a question, and the reply was nothing except a critique of Newsnight's biased coverage.
The MP effectively told O'Brien to go p8ss up a rope.
A reflection of where the tories think they are right now...???
Was it a fairly new MP? I find a lot of the newer breed are less subtle in some ways than more experienced ones in trying to counterattack the modem aggressive or pushy interviewer, to the point they launch counter attacks before they are actually attacked.
But I would not be surprised if you are right that it is a reflection of the current attitude, regardless of how experienced the MP was.
It was Daniel Kawcynski. One can laugh about the labour party and its current torment but a strong opposition is vital to good government. I already detect signs of tory arrogance and complacency like the ones that first appeared post the 1987 general election.
Comrade Blue, an appropriate tribute to the Supreme Leader [if he wins, as seems very likely].
More historical rambling to fill the gap until the announcement: The General Election might have been the Battle of Kleidion. If Corbyn's elected, it's Labour's equivalent of Tsar Samuel seeing his 10,000 mutilated former soldiers and having a heart attack.
Sky: Labour insiders aver they "lost control" of the electoral process, and the new system was never intended to be used for election of leader. Only supposed to be "tested" on the London mayoral selection, apparently...
Story on Sky News that the Labour leadership "experiment" was only supposed to be trialled with the London Mayoral election before determining whether to roll out to a future leadership election. Oops...
Corbyn woman on Sky saying that "large numbers of Labour MPs out of touch with their constituents" (the ones that just elected them?) and "if they decide to leave the party then that's just got to happen..."
OMFG.
OMFG.
TBF when I voted for my MP I had no idea he was planning to run Kendalls leadership bid.
Not sure what the future is for Blairites but if they cant support the Labour leader it aint as a Lab MP in 2020 IMO
I just watched a remarkable exchange between Newsnight's James O'Brien and a tory MP from last night.
O'Brien asked him a question, and the reply was nothing except a critique of Newsnight's biased coverage.
The MP effectively told O'Brien to go p8ss up a rope.
A reflection of where the tories think they are right now...???
James O'Brien is 3.46% as good as he thinks he is....
He interviewed Farage last year, and was hailed by the left despite the entire interview being based on lies. He actually told a bare faced lie to try and trip Farage up.
I listened to his LBC show on the way home from the gym last week, and he was practically calling David Cameron Hitler for not inviting the "Syrian" migrants in Europe over to Britain, using his "Confused as to why everyone doesn't think like me " voice
Very surprised @SeanT rates him. Obnoxious, lefty imbecile.
Talk on Sky that Corbyn has won 2/3rds of the vote...
I would think that is too high but who knows
If he's won by that large a margin, he's there till 2020, maybe even until death, unless he resigns voluntarily. Any thought of a challenge has to be banished.
May I be the first to offer condolences to the likes of @SouthamObserver and all those others who care about Labour and what it has to offer the country, who are in for what seems to be a very painful day.
I just watched a remarkable exchange between Newsnight's James O'Brien and a tory MP from last night.
O'Brien asked him a question, and the reply was nothing except a critique of Newsnight's biased coverage.
The MP effectively told O'Brien to go p8ss up a rope.
A reflection of where the tories think they are right now...???
Was it a fairly new MP? I find a lot of the newer breed are less subtle in some ways than more experienced ones in trying to counterattack the modem aggressive or pushy interviewer, to the point they launch counter attacks before they are actually attacked.
But I would not be surprised if you are right that it is a reflection of the current attitude, regardless of how experienced the MP was.
It was Daniel Kawcynski. One can laugh about the labour party and its current torment but a strong opposition is vital to good government. I already detect signs of tory arrogance and complacency like the ones that first appeared post the 1987 general election.
Agree it's a serious point. The Govt any give needs a sensible opposition for these reasons.
Sky: Labour insiders aver they "lost control" of the electoral process, and the new system was never intended to be used for election of leader. Only supposed to be "tested" on the London mayoral selection, apparently...
WTF?
The process worked exactly as designed. The flaw was the MPs who didn't understand that under the new system they were only supposed to nominate candidates whom they actually wanted to be leader.
How many tories will be regretting fixed term parliaments by end of this morning?
If (when) Corbyn proves to be a complete disaster, the very fact that he was allowed to become leader will destroy Labour's electoral prospects for decades. Because if they do it once, they can do it again.
The moderates should be thinking about how to form a new party.
Story on Sky News that the Labour leadership "experiment" was only supposed to be trialled with the London Mayoral election before determining whether to roll out to a future leadership election. Oops...
Corbyn woman on Sky saying that "large numbers of Labour MPs out of touch with their constituents" (the ones that just elected them?) and "if they decide to leave the party then that's just got to happen..."
OMFG.
OMFG.
That's a bit unfair on them, to be honest. Their constituents still elected them, presumably they are at the least content with them, what cheek to suggest they are so out of touch they should leave the party - I'll bit Corbyn never once considered leaving the party even when its voters were electing New Labour MPs by the hundreds.
Seems designed to allow Corbyn, making far more welcoming noises to the party to unite around him, to seem reasonable.
Not sure if you all saw the news earlier in the month but the coal power station Eggborough is planning to close in March 2016. This means that Eggborough, Longannet and Ferrybridge C are all planning to switch off in March 2016 - this truly is the greenest government ever! And to think, Corbyn wants to bring the coal mines back...
Interesting to note that the Greenpeace Staffer who was largely responsible for the Climate Change Act has changed her spots.
I just watched a remarkable exchange between Newsnight's James O'Brien and a tory MP from last night.
O'Brien asked him a question, and the reply was nothing except a critique of Newsnight's biased coverage.
The MP effectively told O'Brien to go p8ss up a rope.
A reflection of where the tories think they are right now...???
James O'Brien is 3.46% as good as he thinks he is....
He interviewed Farage last year, and was hailed by the left despite the entire interview being based on lies. He actually told a bare faced lie to try and trip Farage up.
I listened to his LBC show on the way home from the gym last week, and he was practically calling David Cameron Hitler for not inviting the "Syrian" migrants in Europe over to Britain, using his "Confused as to why everyone doesn't think like me " voice
Very surprised @SeanT rates him. Obnoxious, lefty imbecile.
It's the patronising 'I'm confused/you seem to be confused' style that gets me. Someone just needs to tell him 'None of us are confused, we all know what your game is...' to put an end to that. It didn't help that he (O'Brien) got his facts wrong at the start and was obviously put out at being corrected.
Do you have any evidence that people who identify as "religious" are any less hedonistic than those who don't? Perhaps people become "religious" because hedonism has failed to deliver for them.
As for your view of Islam, the Crusades and the Reconquista in Spain suggest otherwise.
Those were land struggles, not migrations. Moreover, the rather large number of indigenous Muslims in the Crusader states were treated better under the Franks than they were under their previous colonial masters, an awkward fact for those who seek to condemn the Crusades as a long war of Christian aggression against Islam (e.g. Terry Jones) and something that is therefore frequently ignored. For example, Muslims did not have to pay a dhimmi tax to the Kings of Jerusalem, and were granted full access to legal proceedings including the right to swear on the Koran in court. It's not a complete coincidence that Salah ad-Din was a Kurd who reconquered them from outside rather than inside.
If you are interested, I would recommend Ousamah ibn-Munqidh's Memoirs of an Arab-Syrian Gentlemen, where he discusses a case he brought against a knight who had seized one of his ships (the court gave him full redress) and his discussion of the way a Crusader knight kept strict order in his township, including clamping down on an anti-Muslim riot. He also some very funny anecdotes about the lives of the Crusaders among themselves. I think it's mostly available online - try Fordham University's Internet Medieval Sourcebook.
With regard to the Reconquista, I don't know enough either way to say for definite.
The Reconquista was simply an expulsion. Whether it was primarily motivated by religion or by ethnicity I couldn't say. Actually, I doubt the Reconquistadores themselves cared either way. As you say, it was a land struggle.
As to the Crusades, there were examples of good and bad behaviour on both sides.
The reason for the decay of religion in the West, I think, is the scientific paradigm and its negative impact on the credibility of an afterlife.
YES , there's some truth in that ; we humans crave meaning and purpose in life and will not suffer a'' vacuum of nothingness ''...to be cast adrift , nay marooned , in an archipelago of existential despair ...what now little man , what now ?
Final thought before I go shopping. On election day, after the Morley and Outwood moment, Nick Robinson and Laura Kuenssberg suggested Ed Balls might become a popular figure, partly because of what they confidently expected to be his high profile as the husband 'of the next leader of the Opposition.'
Well, that was clearly an error based on a lack of knowledge of just how crazy the Labour movement have become.* But where does it leave Balls vis a vis the Labour movement?
I understand that Ed is spending one week in every month at Harvard. He's staying out of it for the foreseeable future.
Mr. Tudor, saw a few minutes of the interview on Youtube, then stopped watching. Constant interruptions and condescending attitude put me off.
Paxman was overrated. Newsnight has a bad history of presenters trying to make themselves look good by tripping up ministers and claiming scalps. Oddly, the best presenter I saw was probably Nick Robinson, who did it for a brief stint whilst others were away, and acted more as a chairman rather than seeing himself as a pugilist in a verbal bout.
Edited extra bit: was the Obama comparison to do with having a few months in the job?
Overall turnout is 76%, so around 400,000 votes have been cast in total, so around 200,000 votes is the winning line.
Lets assume the London mayoral turnout is reflected across the country, so virtually all the £3 supporters have voted and 40% of the affiliates. These combined are around 150,000 votes, a big chunk of whom are going to Corbyn, 100,000 sounds reasonable.
So Corbyn needs 100k from the 250k members, 40%, easily done surely.
Norman Smith believes there is a strong London factor in all this. London is younger and of course Labour did quite well there in the GE. What's not pointed out is that there is far more inequality in London than there is in the rest of the country. It's no wonder that Corbyn's desire to share the pie more fairly is going to resonate well there. The trouble is that in much of the rest of the country people's concern is that the pie is too small.
It will be fun however seeing the Blairites trying to persuade the hipsters that they've got to listen to Nuneaton, Lincoln and Plymouth.
Some leftie on Sky news just said "I travel a lot outside the country and for example people in North Wales are energised by Corbyn"
OMFG Labour are in self destruct mode.
Throughout history people move towards extreme positions in hard economic times. In a way all 3 past leaders are to blame for today. Blair with Iraq and the lack of any concrete durable narrative on the broad centre left. Brown for the brutal evisceration of anyone who threatened him leading to the paucity of talent today. And the millipede for introducing the voting system that has helped Corbyn. I admit that I would have thought it impossible for Corbyn to be elected until the global sovereign debt crisis gets underway just 3 weeks from now. But after 20 years of the Blair agenda its just time for change back to ideological politics. The great cycle has turned.
May I humbly suggest all non Labour posters should observe an hours silence from 11am to Noon to allow the euphoria, much needed after May, for the red posters to enjoy their moment...
I can't quite fathom why if Corbyn is so bad for Labour that many Tories and Blairites on this site and the right wing MSM are doing so much gnashing and wailing about his imminent coronation. I think the left wing MSM and Labour MPs will by tomorrow all fall in behind Corbyn and see how far his bandwagon will run.
I'd envisage he will continue crisscrossing the country in a US presidential manner to keep the momentum going. All the while the Tories and the right wing MSM will be attacking him from all sides, thereby confirming his anti-establishment credentials, which will likely add more momentum to his campaign.
Mr. Tudor, saw a few minutes of the interview on Youtube, then stopped watching. Constant interruptions and condescending attitude put me off.
Paxman was overrated. Newsnight has a bad history of presenters trying to make themselves look good by tripping up ministers and claiming scalps. Oddly, the best presenter I saw was probably Nick Robinson, who did it for a brief stint whilst others were away, and acted more as a chairman rather than seeing himself as a pugilist in a verbal bout.
Edited extra bit: was the Obama comparison to do with having a few months in the job?
Eddie Mair was enough to stop me listening to PM. Valerie Singleton he is not!
I disagree with David Lammy, on now, that the era of spin (paraphrase) is over. Whenever someone talks of Corbyn's authenticity it feels like it should be more 'authenticity' registered trademark. He seems genuine to me, he seems to say what he means, but we've already seen his supporters spin away various remarks as not being what he meant, they've now decided, and they will always happen, and so will a calculated image to present to the public. Better if that image of a plain speaking, authentic person is somewhat based off his real personality, but it will be managed and carefully presented and so a little bit phony however much they try.
It's the same way many people think politicians are lacking in sincerity because they are so careful about how even their sincere emotions are presented. That's unavoidable, even for st Jeremy,though I don't blame him for that.
I expect Corbyn to win on the first ballot anywhere from 50-65%...I expect him to win in all 3 groups and so it's not fair to say he is the X Factor leader as he clearly has support from the grass roots of the LP , but I am sure he will get the most support from the £3 X Factor type voters
Corbynism is the once mighty LP giving up ever trying to win an election ; it is the grass roots supporters giving a two fingered salute to the Labour electorate and announced that from here on in they will become merely a shrill , principled party of protest , not too dissimilar from the Greens and UKIP
I cannot say that if Corbyn becomes Labour Leader at midday, that Labour will not get another Jewish vote, but it will be in the hundreds instead of the thousands that Labour usually gets. Still, he'll have a major part of the muslim vote sown up.
May I humbly suggest all non Labour posters should observe an hours silence from 11am to Noon to allow the euphoria, much needed after May, for the red posters to enjoy their moment...
I can't quite fathom why if Corbyn is so bad for Labour that many Tories and Blairites on this site and the right wing MSM are doing so much gnashing and wailing about his imminent coronation. I think the left wing MSM and Labour MPs will by tomorrow all fall in behind Corbyn and see how far his bandwagon will run.
I'd envisage he will continue crisscrossing the country in a US presidential manner to keep the momentum going. All the while the Tories and the right wing MSM will be attacking him from all sides, thereby confirming his anti-establishment credentials, which will likely add more momentum to his campaign.
"Gnashing and wailing"? They just can't restrain themselves. They know the old material's not going to run out, and new material will keep coming.
Mr. Tudor, saw a few minutes of the interview on Youtube, then stopped watching. Constant interruptions and condescending attitude put me off.
Paxman was overrated. Newsnight has a bad history of presenters trying to make themselves look good by tripping up ministers and claiming scalps. Oddly, the best presenter I saw was probably Nick Robinson, who did it for a brief stint whilst others were away, and acted more as a chairman rather than seeing himself as a pugilist in a verbal bout.
Edited extra bit: was the Obama comparison to do with having a few months in the job?
The confrontational style of long form interview asking difficult questions is really difficult to do. It requires meticulous research and needs to let the interviewee say enough to dig the hole.
The best at this that immediately springs to mind is Stephen Sackurs' HardTalk on BBC World - why does this not make the terrestrial channel I don't know. Surprisingly a dose of humour can also help drop the guard of the interviewee, see Jon Stewart or even Ali G for examples of that.
May I humbly suggest all non Labour posters should observe an hours silence from 11am to Noon to allow the euphoria, much needed after May, for the red posters to enjoy their moment...
I can't quite fathom why if Corbyn is so bad for Labour that many Tories and Blairites on this site and the right wing MSM are doing so much gnashing and wailing about his imminent coronation. I think the left wing MSM and Labour MPs will by tomorrow all fall in behind Corbyn and see how far his bandwagon will run.
I'd envisage he will continue crisscrossing the country in a US presidential manner to keep the momentum going. All the while the Tories and the right wing MSM will be attacking him from all sides, thereby confirming his anti-establishment credentials, which will likely add more momentum to his campaign.
Maybe, but that doesn't necessarily help Labour win anything. It could, but confirming your anti-establishment credentials and packing out halls is not a guarantee of it, if in doing so he pisses off everyone in the centre. I happen to agree I think the left wing media will fall in line for a time at least, they cannot pretend many in the left wing media have not expressed disquiet at the prospect of him winning, but if as expected he wins handily of course they need to protect the party they support from what will be increased attacks from the right, now he has won. But those misgivings were clearly there on the left, it has not been a right wing media conspiracy of hatred against him, and some portion of their audience must agree with that, if not as many as they had thought. As such, building up that momentum may be harder at first than it seems, as the left wing media's heart will not be in it.
A thoughtful colleague this evening (who like me still quite likes Blair) said he voted for Corbyn not because he expected him to become PM but because it was necessary to stop the party's drift to becoming an ersatz Tory party, a little milder and a little more generous but essentially the same thing. He sees it as a resetting exercise to redefine Labour as a left-wing party - not necessarily indefinitely under Corbyn if he proved unpopular. I suspect Corbyn would think that a perfectly reasonable attitude. ==============================
Yes , that's what they intend to do but what actually happens will be completely unscripted It reminds me in some ways of what Gorbachev wanted to do by reforming the Soviet Union but it all collapsed alike a house of cards The LP is a hollowed out shell of its former self , hopelessly anachronistic and unable to compete in a postmodern UK , the last thing it needs is a so called leader who will reinforce those failures ; indeed , Jeremy Corbyn is going to lead the LP into oblivion
I still don't buy all this death of Lab stuff. The one thing that saves them if nothing else is FPTP
Let's imagine we take away 10 percentage points of Lab's vote and give it to the LDs This gives us votes - Con 38%, Lab 21%, LD 18%, UKIP 13% but seats as follows Con 362, Lab 179, LD 29, UKIP 2 Now let's try the same exercise but giving 10 percentage points of Lab's vote to UKIP instead. This gives us votes - Con 38%, UKIP 23%, Lab 21%, LD 8%, but seats as follows Con 370, Lab 172, UKIP 15, LD 11 Let's try a third exercise and take away 15 percentage points from Lab and give 7.5 percentage points each to LD and UKIP This gives us votes - Con 38%, UKIP 20%, Lab 16%, LD 16%, but seats as follows Con 379, Lab 149, LD 24, UKIP 18 Even if we take away another 4 percentage points from Lab and give 2 each to LD and UKIP we still get: Votes - Con 38%, UKIP 22%, LD 18%, Lab 12%, seats Con 388, Lab 123, UKIP 31, LD 29
So in this scenario Lab could come 4th on votes and still come 2nd on seats.
While they come 2nd in seats there is always a way back
Pleasing hearing about Tory aggression towards the BBC.
If as expected Corbyn wins then I think the BBC is going to get a well earned kicking as the Tories become more confident. I can see them gradually cutting funding and privatising them after 2020 if they win again.
Comments
As to the Crusades, there were examples of good and bad behaviour on both sides.
The reason for the decay of religion in the West, I think, is the scientific paradigm and its negative impact on the credibility of an afterlife.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U06jlgpMtQs
Understood 400,000 have voted in the Labour leadership election. 340,000 voted in 2010. Result expected at 1130hrs.
Meanwhile.
Labour are about to elect the leader they so richly deserve..the one that will fulfill all of their dynastic dreams and lead them on to Political Glory...
Meanwhile...
When will the United Kingdom get the opposition it needs..maybe I should come back and ask in a decade or so..
adverb
1.
to the utmost or most absolute extent or degree; absolutely; completely.
In all of recorded time....Corbyn's victory is quite unique.... It's THAT unique!
OMFG Labour are in self destruct mode.
Now, bring me a shrubbery.
O'Brien asked him a question, and the reply was nothing except a critique of Newsnight's biased coverage.
The MP effectively told O'Brien to go p8ss up a rope.
A reflection of where the tories think they are right now...???
Well, that was clearly an error based on a lack of knowledge of just how crazy the Labour movement have become.* But where does it leave Balls vis a vis the Labour movement? Completely out in the cold? I think that would be a mistake for them. While I don't for an instant think Balls is the intellectual and political colossus his less than brilliant sycophants in the media think him to be (the fact that anyone can see Balls and the Miliband brothers as world-beating intellectuals is slightly worrying) there's no doubt he's far more intelligent, far more politically savvy and far more experienced than any likely senior shadow minister under Corbyn. Moreover, he's a tough so-and-so who's always up for a fight (a bit like Tom Watson and Mary Creagh, but shrewder).
Labour is not so awash with talent at the moment they can afford to pass up Balls, even though he has stated he will not be returning to Parliament. If he cannot be found some form of campaigning role, their political chances will be diminished.
*That is not to suggest Cooper has had a good campaign or demonstrated past doubt that she deserves or wants the leadership. Merely that she was still by far the best of the candidates on offer.
Corbyn is a two dimensional , quasi Marxist and Marxism is a pseudo secular religion of class
And of course you have to factor in the 200% turnouts in Tower Hamlets and others with a 'strong Asian sub continent political tradition'
But I would not be surprised if you are right that it is a reflection of the current attitude, regardless of how experienced the MP was.
OMFG.
OMFG.
May I be the first to offer condolences to the likes of @SouthamObserver and all those others who care about Labour and what it has to offer the country, who are in for what seems to be a very painful day.
And with that, I'm off. See you later.
Daniel (polish sounding surname) was the MP. It just thought it was a reflection of where the tories think they are.
In tune with the (English) public and in a very strong position
BBC political correspondent Robin Brant describes the scenes greeting Jeremy Corbyn as he arrived at the conference centre. Some were chanting the socialist anthem the Red Flag (always sung at the end of Labour party conferences) which would be "music to the ears" of some of Labour's traditional supporters, he says. But for others, notably the Blairites in the party, "it will be nightmare music", Robin adds.
May I humbly suggest all non Labour posters should observe an hours silence from 11am to Noon to allow the euphoria, much needed after May, for the red posters to enjoy their moment...
How many tories will be regretting fixed term parliaments by end of this morning?
More historical rambling to fill the gap until the announcement:
The General Election might have been the Battle of Kleidion. If Corbyn's elected, it's Labour's equivalent of Tsar Samuel seeing his 10,000 mutilated former soldiers and having a heart attack.
WTF?
Not sure what the future is for Blairites but if they cant support the Labour leader it aint as a Lab MP in 2020 IMO
I listened to his LBC show on the way home from the gym last week, and he was practically calling David Cameron Hitler for not inviting the "Syrian" migrants in Europe over to Britain, using his "Confused as to why everyone doesn't think like me " voice
Very surprised @SeanT rates him. Obnoxious, lefty imbecile.
Yes that is what I was wondering. O'Brien does have an agenda though.
The moderates should be thinking about how to form a new party.
I suspect that absence will be enough to have me banned from the Islington fair trade wine and cheese parties.
Just have to live with the consequences I guess.
Sixteen, I believe? 329 seats out of 642 (excluding SF, Speaker and deputies'
Plus 10 Ulster Unionist MP's due to Corbyn's Ireland antics.
Fair enough Mr Owls. But I wonder what the Blairites will do.
1. Resign and trigger bi-elections.
2. Toe the line
3. Split and form an independent rump in Parlie until 2020.
4. Join the lib dems.
5.......????
Seems designed to allow Corbyn, making far more welcoming noises to the party to unite around him, to seem reasonable.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-34191713
What a great day for the Blairites
Paxman was overrated. Newsnight has a bad history of presenters trying to make themselves look good by tripping up ministers and claiming scalps. Oddly, the best presenter I saw was probably Nick Robinson, who did it for a brief stint whilst others were away, and acted more as a chairman rather than seeing himself as a pugilist in a verbal bout.
Edited extra bit: was the Obama comparison to do with having a few months in the job?
Lets assume the London mayoral turnout is reflected across the country, so virtually all the £3 supporters have voted and 40% of the affiliates. These combined are around 150,000 votes, a big chunk of whom are going to Corbyn, 100,000 sounds reasonable.
So Corbyn needs 100k from the 250k members, 40%, easily done surely.
It will be fun however seeing the Blairites trying to persuade the hipsters that they've got to listen to Nuneaton, Lincoln and Plymouth.
I'd envisage he will continue crisscrossing the country in a US presidential manner to keep the momentum going. All the while the Tories and the right wing MSM will be attacking him from all sides, thereby confirming his anti-establishment credentials, which will likely add more momentum to his campaign.
It's the same way many people think politicians are lacking in sincerity because they are so careful about how even their sincere emotions are presented. That's unavoidable, even for st Jeremy,though I don't blame him for that.
New thread new thread
Corbynism is the once mighty LP giving up ever trying to win an election ; it is the grass roots supporters giving a two fingered salute to the Labour electorate and announced that from here on in they will become merely a shrill , principled party of protest , not too dissimilar from the Greens and UKIP
Still, he'll have a major part of the muslim vote sown up.
The best at this that immediately springs to mind is Stephen Sackurs' HardTalk on BBC World - why does this not make the terrestrial channel I don't know. Surprisingly a dose of humour can also help drop the guard of the interviewee, see Jon Stewart or even Ali G for examples of that.
Let's imagine we take away 10 percentage points of Lab's vote and give it to the LDs
This gives us votes - Con 38%, Lab 21%, LD 18%, UKIP 13% but seats as follows Con 362, Lab 179, LD 29, UKIP 2
Now let's try the same exercise but giving 10 percentage points of Lab's vote to UKIP instead. This gives us votes - Con 38%, UKIP 23%, Lab 21%, LD 8%, but seats as follows Con 370, Lab 172, UKIP 15, LD 11
Let's try a third exercise and take away 15 percentage points from Lab and give 7.5 percentage points each to LD and UKIP
This gives us votes - Con 38%, UKIP 20%, Lab 16%, LD 16%, but seats as follows Con 379, Lab 149, LD 24, UKIP 18
Even if we take away another 4 percentage points from Lab and give 2 each to LD and UKIP we still get:
Votes - Con 38%, UKIP 22%, LD 18%, Lab 12%, seats Con 388, Lab 123, UKIP 31, LD 29
So in this scenario Lab could come 4th on votes and still come 2nd on seats.
While they come 2nd in seats there is always a way back
If as expected Corbyn wins then I think the BBC is going to get a well earned kicking as the Tories become more confident. I can see them gradually cutting funding and privatising them after 2020 if they win again.
I've just got back in from the supermarket, and a spider's bitten me on my neck.
Let's wait to see if I get any superpowers ...