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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LD Newswire survey has Tim Farron heading for 58-42% victor

SystemSystem Posts: 12,218
edited July 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LD Newswire survey has Tim Farron heading for 58-42% victory over Norman Lamb for next party leader

The results will be announced on Thursday and given the fact that second class reply envelopes have been used then virtually every party member planning to vote will probably have done so.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2015
    Think someone mentioned it on Twitter, Theresa May looks like Joan 'the freak' Ferguson from Cell Block H in that pic
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Yes, looks like it will be a comfortable victory for Farron but with Lamb still getting a respectable result
  • handandmousehandandmouse Posts: 213
    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Toasted Lamb with no trimmings ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Chilling - should be part of the BOO campaign.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    A poll thread following the polls-are-rubbish thread. pb does irony.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    A poll thread following the polls-are-rubbish thread. pb does irony.

    We shall see on Thursday, if this is correct it could be the first really accurate polling we have had all year!
  • runnymederunnymede Posts: 2,536
    The interview with Varoufakis would appear to confirm that in Tsipras, the Greeks have voted for a third spineless conman in a row?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2015
    TGOHF said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Chilling - should be part of the BOO campaign.

    Why? What it mostly shows is that Varouakis might be a nice guy and be good on economic theory, but he's exceptionally naive. He doesn't even seem to have understood Greek politics or the government he was a part of, let alone the wider picture.

    Still, it's a very interesting article - I agree with @handandmouse that it's a must-read. You don't often get a guileless, child-like account of international negotiations.

    The section on "What is the greatest problem with the general way the Eurogroup functions?" is particularly relevant to our renegotiation. It's one of the key issues - the Eurozone needs a more formal structure (if the Greek crisis has proven one thing, it is that), and we need more protection. There's a deal to be done there.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited July 2015

    TGOHF said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Chilling - should be part of the BOO campaign.

    Why? What it mostly shows is that Varouakis might be a nice guy and be good on economic theory, but he's exceptionally naive. He doesn't even seem to have understood Greek politics or the government he was a part of, let alone the wider picture.

    Still, it's a very interesting article - I agree with @handandmouse that it's a must-read. You don't often get a guileless, child-like account of international negotiations.

    The section on "What is the greatest problem with the general way the Eurogroup functions?" is particularly relevant to our renegotiation. It's one of the key issues - the Eurozone needs a more formal structure (if the Greek crisis has proven one thing, it is that), and we need more protection. There's a deal to be done there.
    The breathtaking part of the article is the disgraceful lack of transparency and accountability at the highest level
    There is a convention that communiqués must be unanimous, and the President can’t just convene a meeting of the Eurozone and exclude a member state. And he said, “Oh I’m sure I can do that.” So I asked for a legal opinion. It created a bit of a kerfuffle. For about 5-10 minutes the meeting stopped, clerks, officials were talking to one another, on their phone, and eventually some official, some legal expert addressed me, and said the following words, that “Well, the Eurogroup does not exist in law, there is no treaty which has convened this group.”

    So what we have is a non-existent group that has the greatest power to determine the lives of Europeans. It’s not answerable to anyone, given it doesn’t exist in law; no minutes are kept; and it’s confidential. So no citizen ever knows what is said within. … These are decisions of almost life and death, and no member has to answer to anybody.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @ScottyNational: Letters: 'Where did Syriza get the idea to promise no austerity within a larger currency union that wants it?' - writes Alex from Gordon
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited July 2015
    Indigo said:

    The breathtaking part of the article is the disgraceful lack of transparency and accountability at the highest level

    Why? It's no different from any other international meeting.

    If you're arguing that the Eurozone should have a formal structure, ruled by strictly-enforecable rules, under direct Eurozone-wide democratic control, with its own bureaucracy and so on, making it more like a federal state, then, yes, that is a view widely held in EU countries. It probably is a precondition for making the Euro work properly, and it's the next logical step of ever-closer union. The trick for us, outside the Eurozone, is to ensure we have protection from it built into the EU treaties.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    Bros called. They want their boy-band member back.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    No we Khan?

    Labour's David Lammy has surged into second place in the race to become the party’s candidate for London Mayor.

    A YouGov poll published today shows that backing among Labour supporters for the Tottenham MP has crept ahead of former shadow justice secretary Sadiq Khan.

    Before Mr Lammy’s rise, Tooting MP Mr Khan was the main challenger to frontrunner Tessa Jowell. Her backing from Labour supporters remains solid in the new poll — at 37 per cent — and she has led the race since the series of polls began.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/lammy-leaps-to-second-place-in-labours-mayoral-candidate-race-10384863.html
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    isam said:

    Think someone mentioned it on Twitter, Theresa May looks like Joan 'the freak' Ferguson from Cell Block H in that pic

    They all look like characters out of Cell Block H.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    If Tim Farron's hair was a bit longer he and Theresa May would have the same haircut.

    Or do I need a visit to specsavers ?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Bros called. They want their boy-band member back.

    Are you talking about Tim Farron (when will I be famous) or Yanis Varouakis (I owe you nothing)?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    edited July 2015

    No we Khan?

    Labour's David Lammy has surged into second place in the race to become the party’s candidate for London Mayor.

    A YouGov poll published today shows that backing among Labour supporters for the Tottenham MP has crept ahead of former shadow justice secretary Sadiq Khan.

    Before Mr Lammy’s rise, Tooting MP Mr Khan was the main challenger to frontrunner Tessa Jowell. Her backing from Labour supporters remains solid in the new poll — at 37 per cent — and she has led the race since the series of polls began.

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/mayor/lammy-leaps-to-second-place-in-labours-mayoral-candidate-race-10384863.html

    Thanks, just took some 44-1 on Mastermind at Betfair.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    antifrank said:

    Are you talking about Tim Farron (when will I be famous) or Yanis Varouakis (I owe you nothing)?

    Should have known we would have a Bros expert on the site...

    My local radio station does 80's playlists on Bank holidays, but none of the DJs were born in the 80's so they pronounce it Brose, not Bross
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    Is it wrong I want Norman Lamb to win not for the 25/1 bet slip but for the fact his surname is puntastic? Lib Dems are Lambs to the slaughter etc.
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626
    antifrank said:

    Bros called. They want their boy-band member back.

    Are you talking about Tim Farron (when will I be famous) or Yanis Varouakis (I owe you nothing)?
    Well the latest Greek deal set the cat amongst the pigeons that's for sure
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,981
    Scott_P said:

    antifrank said:

    Are you talking about Tim Farron (when will I be famous) or Yanis Varouakis (I owe you nothing)?

    Should have known we would have a Bros expert on the site...

    My local radio station does 80's playlists on Bank holidays, but none of the DJs were born in the 80's so they pronounce it Brose, not Bross
    There's more than one Bros fan on PB
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    See someone took all the 36s.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,713
    antifrank said:

    Bros called. They want their boy-band member back.

    Are you talking about Tim Farron (when will I be famous) or Yanis Varouakis (I owe you nothing)?
    Well, I'm definitely not talking about Theresa May (for your eyes only)
  • DaemonBarberDaemonBarber Posts: 1,626

    Scott_P said:

    antifrank said:

    Are you talking about Tim Farron (when will I be famous) or Yanis Varouakis (I owe you nothing)?

    Should have known we would have a Bros expert on the site...

    My local radio station does 80's playlists on Bank holidays, but none of the DJs were born in the 80's so they pronounce it Brose, not Bross
    There's more than one Bros fan on PB
    Fan may be too strong a word for it...
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Farron looks to have it, though Lamb has gained quite a bit of ground, it was 71/29 in May before hustings, endorsements etc. Probably not enough to see him through, but enough to give him a high profile position.

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/who-lib-dem-voice-members-think-should-be-the-next-leader-46010.html
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Pulpstar said:

    See someone took all the 36s.

    Guilty, M'Lud (average 38.15). I'd hitherto completely discounted Lammy, and TBH I still do, but it was cheap insurance to cover a fairly whopping red.
  • Animal_pbAnimal_pb Posts: 608

    Farron looks to have it, though Lamb has gained quite a bit of ground, it was 71/29 in May before hustings, endorsements etc. Probably not enough to see him through, but enough to give him a high profile position.

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/who-lib-dem-voice-members-think-should-be-the-next-leader-46010.html

    Umm. Given how few LD MPs there are, don't they *all* have to have a high profile position? (Inasmuch as any LD-related thing is high profile anymore)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    edited July 2015

    Pulpstar said:

    See someone took all the 36s.

    Guilty, M'Lud (average 38.15). I'd hitherto completely discounted Lammy, and TBH I still do, but it was cheap insurance to cover a fairly whopping red.
    I'll need to double check my overall position for mayor, as I've up till this point done it through "traditional" bookies, but after Corbyn, who never discount (realistic) long odds contenders. I still can't get my head round the David Miliband backers on Betfair mind, other than seeing a big green number - really what is the point !

    I'm not backing Abbott at any price though ;p
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Scott_P said:

    antifrank said:

    Are you talking about Tim Farron (when will I be famous) or Yanis Varouakis (I owe you nothing)?

    Should have known we would have a Bros expert on the site...

    My local radio station does 80's playlists on Bank holidays, but none of the DJs were born in the 80's so they pronounce it Brose, not Bross
    There's more than one Bros fan on PB
    So many of their titles seem appropriate to the Greek debacle: Varoufakis (I Quit); Germany to Greece (Are you mine?); IMF on Greek Debt (Too Much); EZ to Greece (It's A Jungle Out There, Try, Don't Bite the Hand); Greek electorate to Tspiras (Shocked, Shot in the Back)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Animal_pb said:

    Farron looks to have it, though Lamb has gained quite a bit of ground, it was 71/29 in May before hustings, endorsements etc. Probably not enough to see him through, but enough to give him a high profile position.

    http://www.libdemvoice.org/who-lib-dem-voice-members-think-should-be-the-next-leader-46010.html

    Umm. Given how few LD MPs there are, don't they *all* have to have a high profile position? (Inasmuch as any LD-related thing is high profile anymore)
    To an extent! But apart from Nick Clegg only Carmichael has a public profile, and that mostly for the wrong reasons.

    I can see that Norman will get on well with Tim, whoever wins, they seemed to have quite a positive relationship at the hustings, much more than the Labour candidates seem to do.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Excellent read. Thanks for posting.

    HL: You must have been thinking about a Grexit from day one...

    YV: Yes, absolutely.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Disraeli said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Excellent read. Thanks for posting.

    HL: You must have been thinking about a Grexit from day one...

    YV: Yes, absolutely.
    The obvious next question: "then why have you prepared neither the government nor the people for it?"
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106

    Disraeli said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Excellent read. Thanks for posting.

    HL: You must have been thinking about a Grexit from day one...

    YV: Yes, absolutely.
    The obvious next question: "then why have you prepared neither the government nor the people for it?"
    HL: ...have preparations been made?
    YV: The answer is yes and no. We had a small group, a ‘war cabinet’ within the ministry, of about five people that were doing this: so we worked out in theory, on paper, everything that had to be done [to prepare for/in the event of a Grexit]. But it’s one thing to do that at the level of 4-5 people, it’s quite another to prepare the country for it. To prepare the country an executive decision had to be taken, and that decision was never taken.
     
    HL: And in the past week, was that a decision you felt you were leaning towards [preparing for Grexit]?
    YV: My view was, we should be very careful not to activate it. I didn’t want this to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn’t want this to be like Nietzsche’s famous dictum that if you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss will stare back at you. But I also believed that at the moment the Eurogroup shut out banks down, we should energise this process.
     
    HL: Right. So there were two options as far as I can see – an immediate Grexit, or printing IOUs and taking bank control of the Bank of Greece [potentially but not necessarily precipitating a Grexit]?
    YV: Sure, sure. I never believed we should go straight to a new currency. My view was – and I put this to the government – that if they dared shut our banks down, which I considered to be an aggressive move of incredible potency, we should respond aggressively but without crossing the point of no return.
    We should issue our own IOUs, or even at least announce that we’re going to issue our own euro-denominated liquidity; we should haircut the Greek 2012 bonds that the ECB held, or announce we were going to do it; and we should take control of the Bank of Greece. This was the triptych, the three things, which I thought we should respond with if the ECB shut down our banks.
    … I was warning the Cabinet this was going to happen [the ECB shut our banks] for a month, in order to drag us into a humiliating agreement. When it happened – and many of my colleagues couldn’t believe it happened – my recommendation for responding “energetically”, let’s say, was voted down.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Disraeli said:

    Disraeli said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Excellent read. Thanks for posting.

    HL: You must have been thinking about a Grexit from day one...

    YV: Yes, absolutely.
    The obvious next question: "then why have you prepared neither the government nor the people for it?"
    HL: ...have preparations been made?
    YV: The answer is yes and no. We had a small group, a ‘war cabinet’ within the ministry, of about five people that were doing this: so we worked out in theory, on paper, everything that had to be done [to prepare for/in the event of a Grexit]. But it’s one thing to do that at the level of 4-5 people, it’s quite another to prepare the country for it. To prepare the country an executive decision had to be taken, and that decision was never taken.
     
    HL: And in the past week, was that a decision you felt you were leaning towards [preparing for Grexit]?
    YV: My view was, we should be very careful not to activate it. I didn’t want this to become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I didn’t want this to be like Nietzsche’s famous dictum that if you stare into the abyss long enough, the abyss will stare back at you. But I also believed that at the moment the Eurogroup shut out banks down, we should energise this process.
     
    HL: Right. So there were two options as far as I can see – an immediate Grexit, or printing IOUs and taking bank control of the Bank of Greece [potentially but not necessarily precipitating a Grexit]?
    YV: Sure, sure. I never believed we should go straight to a new currency. My view was – and I put this to the government – that if they dared shut our banks down, which I considered to be an aggressive move of incredible potency, we should respond aggressively but without crossing the point of no return.
    We should issue our own IOUs, or even at least announce that we’re going to issue our own euro-denominated liquidity; we should haircut the Greek 2012 bonds that the ECB held, or announce we were going to do it; and we should take control of the Bank of Greece. This was the triptych, the three things, which I thought we should respond with if the ECB shut down our banks.
    … I was warning the Cabinet this was going to happen [the ECB shut our banks] for a month, in order to drag us into a humiliating agreement. When it happened – and many of my colleagues couldn’t believe it happened – my recommendation for responding “energetically”, let’s say, was voted down.
    So the short answer is "No"?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCAllegra: Think Harriet Harman may be about to row back her position on tax credits ahead of this evening's tense parli Labour Party mtg
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106



    So the short answer is "No"?

    You can lead a horse (or a fox) to water, but you can't make him drink.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    @Disraeli:

    The problem was that the Greek banks were insolvent. He wanted the ECB to continue to fund insolvent banks indefinitely - something that was clearly not possible.

    Why Greece didn't leave the Eurozone in January with solvent banks, and negotiate debt relief from a position of strength is one of those questions that will be asked for decades.

    One thing I think harmed Greece from day one was that their negotiator was a game theory expert. I think it led everyone else to question his every move, and assume everything was planned as part of some game theory exercise. When, in fact, it was not.

    The second issue was that the Greek government underestimated the effect of their negotiations on the Greek economy. The problem was that the threat of Grexit caused people to withdraw capital from the country, meaning that the Greek negotiating team was - with every day that passed - negotiating from a weaker, and weaker position.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Betfair, Grexit in 2015:

    Yes: 9.4 / 9.8
    No: 1.11 / 1.12

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/#/politics/market/1.117087478
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2015
    'As many as 60 British women are thought to be members of the brigade and they are paid around £100 a month. '

    Maybe the progressives will be spurred into action against ISIS when they see women workers exploited by being paid less than the living wage?

    https://twitter.com/mailonline/status/620598760847077376
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    @Disraeli:

    The problem was that the Greek banks were insolvent. He wanted the ECB to continue to fund insolvent banks indefinitely - something that was clearly not possible.

    Why Greece didn't leave the Eurozone in January with solvent banks, and negotiate debt relief from a position of strength is one of those questions that will be asked for decades.

    One thing I think harmed Greece from day one was that their negotiator was a game theory expert. I think it led everyone else to question his every move, and assume everything was planned as part of some game theory exercise. When, in fact, it was not.

    The second issue was that the Greek government underestimated the effect of their negotiations on the Greek economy. The problem was that the threat of Grexit caused people to withdraw capital from the country, meaning that the Greek negotiating team was - with every day that passed - negotiating from a weaker, and weaker position.

    Let's not forget the fundamental Greek miscalculation: they thought that the EU would do a deal at any price, whereas in fact 14 of the 18 other EZ countries were in the 'do a deal, but not at any price' camp, and perhaps most importantly, that was not Germany's starting bid but its maximum price.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    Quick question - When full capital withdrawal is allowed from Greek banks, will there be a full on run ?
  • DisraeliDisraeli Posts: 1,106
    @rcs1000
    Whoa! Hold your horses here! :-)
    I'm just reporting the relevant bits of YV's interview back to Mr Fox - don't assume that I agree or disagree with YV or Syriza.

    The only thing that I would say on the Greek crisis (and here you can shoot me down if you disagree with me) is that I think the best thing for Greece would have been to leave the Euro in a managed fashion with the help of the IMF years ago, when it became clear that the EU plan wasn't working.
  • There is no doubt that the illegal Greek capital controls will have caused a lot of people in Greece a lot of quantifiable economic loss. There is also no doubt that, as EU law currently stands, those who have been caused loss by the Greek government's actions have a right to recover compensation. There is also little doubt that none of those persons will ever recover a euro cent from the Greek government should they chose to sue it. It does make one wonder why we regularly pay out millions of pounds in damages to claimants for breaches of EU law when we act in good faith and on the best legal advice. What is the point of being part of a club when you are the only one who obeys the rules?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    The Greek parliamentary arithmetic doesn't look entirely secure for the deal.

    See post at 15.26:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/13/greek-crisis-tsipras-battle-bailout-deal-backlash-live

  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Disraeli said:

    @rcs1000
    Whoa! Hold your horses here! :-)
    I'm just reporting the relevant bits of YV's interview back to Mr Fox - don't assume that I agree or disagree with YV or Syriza.
    when it became clear that the EU plan wasn't working.


    The structural reforms, meant that in the long term the EU plan would have worked. However, since the Greek people did not want to implement them and face the pain (possibly a perfectly reasonable preference) then as you say an early managed exit from the Euro would have been best.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Chilling - should be part of the BOO campaign.

    Why? What it mostly shows is that Varouakis might be a nice guy and be good on economic theory, but he's exceptionally naive. He doesn't even seem to have understood Greek politics or the government he was a part of, let alone the wider picture.

    Still, it's a very interesting article - I agree with @handandmouse that it's a must-read. You don't often get a guileless, child-like account of international negotiations.

    The section on "What is the greatest problem with the general way the Eurogroup functions?" is particularly relevant to our renegotiation. It's one of the key issues - the Eurozone needs a more formal structure (if the Greek crisis has proven one thing, it is that), and we need more protection. There's a deal to be done there.
    Mainly where he says nobody cares about the economics - only about the optics and process.

    Madness writ large.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    Pulpstar said:

    Quick question - When full capital withdrawal is allowed from Greek banks, will there be a full on run ?

    Yes, and then some! Which is why the controls will remain in place for quite a while yet (probably months), no matter what 'deal' is cooked up in the coming days.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2015
    Ivan Basso withdraws with cancer

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/33509974

    Another drugs cheat gets testicular cancer.

    Also...

    "His diagnosis will also increase the focus on Armstrong's arrival in France next week to ride two stages of the Tour with ex-England footballer Geoff Thomas - a day ahead of the race - to raise money for a cancer charity."

    WTF...I have a lot of time for Geoff Thomas and all the good work he does, but why is he hitching his ride to Armstrong.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,569

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Great interview, the sort of frankness you usually only get in memoirs years after the event. But he does sound a bit like an academic accidentally parachuted into political wheeler-dealing.
  • The Greek parliamentary arithmetic doesn't look entirely secure for the deal.

    See post at 15.26:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/13/greek-crisis-tsipras-battle-bailout-deal-backlash-live

    New Democracy, PASOK and Potami will likely be voting for the deal. That looks like enough to ensure it passes, even if the Coalition of the Radical Left fractures into sects of schismatics in the process.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.

    If Corbyn becomes leader, there's no longer any point in anyone vaguely sensible - such as me, of course :-) - bothering with Labour anymore.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,871
    JonathanD said:

    Disraeli said:

    @rcs1000
    Whoa! Hold your horses here! :-)
    I'm just reporting the relevant bits of YV's interview back to Mr Fox - don't assume that I agree or disagree with YV or Syriza.
    when it became clear that the EU plan wasn't working.


    The structural reforms, meant that in the long term the EU plan would have worked. However, since the Greek people did not want to implement them and face the pain (possibly a perfectly reasonable preference) then as you say an early managed exit from the Euro would have been best.

    No they didn't, it was forecast that Greece would run out of money by 2030 under the terms of the initial agreement.

  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    TGOHF said:

    Toasted Lamb with no trimmings ?

    Lib Dems do not toast people, Mr TGOHF. That is a Tory practice.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,036
    edited July 2015
    Grr, Vanilla quote threading has broken again. Same as before on both pb.com and pb.vf.com on several different devices.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    PClipp said:

    TGOHF said:

    Toasted Lamb with no trimmings ?

    Lib Dems do not toast people, Mr TGOHF. That is a Tory practice.
    They do get toasted though - see Huhne, Cable and Huppert.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822

    The Greek parliamentary arithmetic doesn't look entirely secure for the deal.

    See post at 15.26:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/13/greek-crisis-tsipras-battle-bailout-deal-backlash-live

    New Democracy, PASOK and Potami will likely be voting for the deal. That looks like enough to ensure it passes, even if the Coalition of the Radical Left fractures into sects of schismatics in the process.
    I think you are right - that post must refer to the stability of the government rather than the deal itself.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2015
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Chilling - should be part of the BOO campaign.

    Why? What it mostly shows is that Varouakis might be a nice guy and be good on economic theory, but he's exceptionally naive. He doesn't even seem to have understood Greek politics or the government he was a part of, let alone the wider picture.

    Still, it's a very interesting article - I agree with @handandmouse that it's a must-read. You don't often get a guileless, child-like account of international negotiations.

    The section on "What is the greatest problem with the general way the Eurogroup functions?" is particularly relevant to our renegotiation. It's one of the key issues - the Eurozone needs a more formal structure (if the Greek crisis has proven one thing, it is that), and we need more protection. There's a deal to be done there.
    Mainly where he says nobody cares about the economics - only about the optics and process.

    Madness writ large.
    It may just be that they did not care for a lecture in marxist economics by Varoufakis!

    I see that we have nesting back.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662

    There is no doubt that the illegal Greek capital controls will have caused a lot of people in Greece a lot of quantifiable economic loss. There is also no doubt that, as EU law currently stands, those who have been caused loss by the Greek government's actions have a right to recover compensation. There is also little doubt that none of those persons will ever recover a euro cent from the Greek government should they chose to sue it. It does make one wonder why we regularly pay out millions of pounds in damages to claimants for breaches of EU law when we act in good faith and on the best legal advice. What is the point of being part of a club when you are the only one who obeys the rules?

    But hang on: if the ECB had cut off funding to Greek banks, as they were insolvent, then it would have had the effect of a disorganised and indiscriminate capital controls.

    There is no right answer. Only degrees of wrong ones.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.

    If Corbyn becomes leader, there's no longer any point in anyone vaguely sensible - such as me, of course :-) - bothering with Labour anymore.

    Wouldn't you say there is no labour candidate worthy of leading the party? I can't think of one

    It's best they start again from scratch, they represent no one and have no charisma or star quality to hide that
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,662
    Sandpit said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Quick question - When full capital withdrawal is allowed from Greek banks, will there be a full on run ?

    Yes, and then some! Which is why the controls will remain in place for quite a while yet (probably months), no matter what 'deal' is cooked up in the coming days.
    I think that's absolutely right. It will be Cyprus, mark two.
  • handandmousehandandmouse Posts: 213

    The Greek parliamentary arithmetic doesn't look entirely secure for the deal.

    See post at 15.26:

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/13/greek-crisis-tsipras-battle-bailout-deal-backlash-live

    How big a majority is needed? If it's a simple majority, I don't get this... Who's going to vote against apart from GD and KKE?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tnewtondunn: Harman about to go on TV to wobble on her backing for child tax credits limit. Her 24 hours shows what a grim job next Labour leader has.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    Disraeli said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Excellent read. Thanks for posting.
    The biggest lesson has to be that sending an academic economist to lead a high-stakes negotiation was never going to succeed.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    That Varoufakis transcript is stunning. When the EU says things like this, how can there be any national sovereignty or democracy?

    “No, no, no, this has to be a comprehensive review. Nothing will be implemented if you dare introduce any legislation. It will be considered unilateral action inimical to the process of reaching an agreement.”
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    There is no doubt that the illegal Greek capital controls will have caused a lot of people in Greece a lot of quantifiable economic loss. There is also no doubt that, as EU law currently stands, those who have been caused loss by the Greek government's actions have a right to recover compensation. There is also little doubt that none of those persons will ever recover a euro cent from the Greek government should they chose to sue it. It does make one wonder why we regularly pay out millions of pounds in damages to claimants for breaches of EU law when we act in good faith and on the best legal advice. What is the point of being part of a club when you are the only one who obeys the rules?

    More money for the lawyers, I suppose.....
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    MrP,

    "Harman about to go on TV to wobble on her backing for child tax credits limit."

    A pointless exercise. She either believes what she said and sticks to it - splitter, splitter, splitter. Or she was lying yesterday - liar, liar, pants on fire.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.

    If Corbyn becomes leader, there's no longer any point in anyone vaguely sensible - such as me, of course :-) - bothering with Labour anymore.

    He won't win but could well be second and even that sends a pretty dire message to those remaining small towns which might otherwise flirt with Labour. The inner cities will however remain strong...and isolated. :)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Scott_P said:

    @tnewtondunn: Harman about to go on TV to wobble on her backing for child tax credits limit. Her 24 hours shows what a grim job next Labour leader has.

    I think I read that the PLP although reduced in number may have a higher proportion of left-wingers and union hacks - thanks again Ed and Len. :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,303
    JEO said:

    That Varoufakis transcript is stunning. When the EU says things like this, how can there be any national sovereignty or democracy?

    “No, no, no, this has to be a comprehensive review. Nothing will be implemented if you dare introduce any legislation. It will be considered unilateral action inimical to the process of reaching an agreement.”

    It was Syriza/Varoufakis who wanted to reopen negotiations in the first place so I think that that, while not painting the Eurogroup in a good light, is taken out of the context of the course of the discussions.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Off topic: US Presidentials primaries. For those betting on the primaries and the election, here is an interesting piece from Douglas E Schoen, a top Democratic campaign adviser. So even though he is a commentator for Fox, he is not a rabid right-winger. He posits that it is possible that Clinton could lose Iowa and New Hampshire, or not win well enough, and open up the door for a new candidate (Warren) to enter a la Bobby Kennedy after the early results are in:

    http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/09/potentially-mortal-threat-to-hillary-s-candidacy.html
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    That Varoufakis transcript is stunning. When the EU says things like this, how can there be any national sovereignty or democracy?

    To be fair, which delinquent debtor ever says they were well treated by their lenders? listen to them and the lender is always a callous villain.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656

    JEO said:

    That Varoufakis transcript is stunning. When the EU says things like this, how can there be any national sovereignty or democracy?

    “No, no, no, this has to be a comprehensive review. Nothing will be implemented if you dare introduce any legislation. It will be considered unilateral action inimical to the process of reaching an agreement.”

    It was Syriza/Varoufakis who wanted to reopen negotiations in the first place so I think that that, while not painting the Eurogroup in a good light, is taken out of the context of the course of the discussions.
    It's not taken out of context at all. Yes, SYRIZA re-opened negotiations because the previous deal was unworkable, as even the IMF have admitted. The EU agreed to those renegotiations. And then they proved utterly unwilling to actually negotiate.

    "Schäuble was consistent throughout. His view was “I’m not discussing the programme – this was accepted by the previous government and we can’t possibly allow an election to change anything. Because we have elections all the time, there are 19 of us, if every time there was an election and something changed, the contracts between us wouldn’t mean anything.”

    So at that point I had to get up and say “Well perhaps we should simply not hold elections anymore for indebted countries”, and there was no answer. The only interpretation I can give [of their view] is “Yes, that would be a good idea, but it would be difficult to do. So you either sign on the dotted line or you are out.”
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    taffys said:

    That Varoufakis transcript is stunning. When the EU says things like this, how can there be any national sovereignty or democracy?

    To be fair, which delinquent debtor ever says they were well treated by their lenders? listen to them and the lender is always a callous villain.

    Except Varoufakis seems to be exceptionally honest rather than having an axe to grind. He was asked about Merkel, and he could have painted her as the wicked witch of the West. But instead he just said his honest view: that he never interacted with her as finance ministers don't speak to prime ministers.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Disraeli said:

    From other thread:

    This interview with Yanis Varoufakis contains some astonishing revelations from behind the scenes of the Greek negotiations. A must-read...

    http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

    Excellent read. Thanks for posting.
    The biggest lesson has to be that sending an academic economist to lead a high-stakes negotiation was never going to succeed.
    Like you don't send an expert to teach, but a teacher; you don't send an economist to negotiate, you send a negotiator.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Liz Kendall tells parents to consider how many children they can afford"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11735544/labour-in-crisis-over-welfare-cuts-live.html
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    AndyJS said:

    "Liz Kendall tells parents to consider how many children they can afford"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11735544/labour-in-crisis-over-welfare-cuts-live.html

    How long before Labour goes for a "one-child" rule? :)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @garypepworth: The trouble with Burnham & Cooper being so ready to dump on their leader in public is that they can't complain when the same happens to them

    @schofieldkevin: Senior Labour source on child tax credit row: "There's no point saying you'll take difficult decisions then not taking difficult decisions."
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.

    If Corbyn becomes leader, there's no longer any point in anyone vaguely sensible - such as me, of course :-) - bothering with Labour anymore.

    JC has a definite lead from those who have expressed a preference with my Facebook contacts.

    I knew I had a vast number of lefty air headed friends on facebook, but it is interesting how many intelligent well meaning educated late middle aged prosperous people are expressing support for him.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,156
    edited July 2015
    TGOHF said:


    Mainly where he says nobody cares about the economics - only about the optics and process.

    Madness writ large.

    "MADNESS....? This is SYRIZA!"
    [kicks EU messenger down the well!]
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    Ultimately Greece wasn't prepared to countenance leaving the Eurozone, and Germany (Schauble in particular) was. He called their bluff.
    If they'd have been prepared to leave, they may have been able to get a better deal... or left. But they were bluffing, Germany rightly called them out.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    philiph said:

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.

    If Corbyn becomes leader, there's no longer any point in anyone vaguely sensible - such as me, of course :-) - bothering with Labour anymore.

    JC has a definite lead from those who have expressed a preference with my Facebook contacts.

    I knew I had a vast number of lefty air headed friends on facebook, but it is interesting how many intelligent well meaning educated late middle aged prosperous people are expressing support for him.
    Interesting how many do not use their heads
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Pulpstar said:
    That was what I was taught to expect in my lifetime when I was at primary school in the 1960s ... I have since learnt to take such predictions on advisement ...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Scott_P said:

    @garypepworth: The trouble with Burnham & Cooper being so ready to dump on their leader in public is that they can't complain when the same happens to them

    @schofieldkevin: Senior Labour source on child tax credit row: "There's no point saying you'll take difficult decisions then not taking difficult decisions."

    Actually I think Burnham & Cooper have a point. Irrespective of whether Harriet is right or wrong, surely as an interim leader she shouldn't be taking any positions on Labour's direction and policy positioning? It's only a few before the new leader is in place.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    AndyJS said:

    "Liz Kendall tells parents to consider how many children they can afford"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11735544/labour-in-crisis-over-welfare-cuts-live.html

    How long before Labour goes for a "one-child" rule? :)
    Will never for immigrants - they vote for Labour - but will do for WVM
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    JEO said:

    That Varoufakis transcript is stunning. When the EU says things like this, how can there be any national sovereignty or democracy?

    “No, no, no, this has to be a comprehensive review. Nothing will be implemented if you dare introduce any legislation. It will be considered unilateral action inimical to the process of reaching an agreement.”

    Of course there is no need whatsoever to doubt the 100% accuracy of the Varoufakis recollections. None at all. Honesty and integrity are his middle names - after all he is a communist.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Scott_P said:

    @garypepworth: The trouble with Burnham & Cooper being so ready to dump on their leader in public is that they can't complain when the same happens to them

    @schofieldkevin: Senior Labour source on child tax credit row: "There's no point saying you'll take difficult decisions then not taking difficult decisions."

    Actually I think Burnham & Cooper have a point. Irrespective of whether Harriet is right or wrong, surely as an interim leader she shouldn't be taking any positions on Labour's direction and policy positioning? It's only a few before the new leader is in place.
    H was implying the vote would be before then
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Actually I think Burnham & Cooper have a point. Irrespective of whether Harriet is right or wrong, surely as an interim leader she shouldn't be taking any positions on Labour's direction and policy positioning? It's only a few before the new leader is in place.

    Except there's a vote.

    "Our official policy is that we have no official policy until after the leader is elected so we will vote for/against/abstain after 3 rounds of rock/paper/scissors/lizard/spock..."

    And what is the value of an interim leader if they can't actually do any leading?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    philiph said:

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.

    If Corbyn becomes leader, there's no longer any point in anyone vaguely sensible - such as me, of course :-) - bothering with Labour anymore.

    JC has a definite lead from those who have expressed a preference with my Facebook contacts.

    I knew I had a vast number of lefty air headed friends on facebook, but it is interesting how many intelligent well meaning educated late middle aged prosperous people are expressing support for him.
    My Facebook ex-teacher colleagues are much the same - you'd need more than all the salt in the Dead sea to rely on them being representative though. Facebook and twitter are two sides of the same coin in this respect. It's refreshing to note how much the guardianistas believe in them though.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:


    Mainly where he says nobody cares about the economics - only about the optics and process.

    Madness writ large.

    "MADNESS....? This is SYRIZA!"
    [kicks EU messenger down the well!]
    Greece and the Eurozone deserve each other.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987

    tlg86 said:

    dr_spyn said:
    Corbyn becomes Labour leader, Kendall defects to the Tories, she then becomes Tory leader when Dave steps down...
    I don't think so. She would sit tight for Corbyns defenestration, though if the LDs make a strong recovery and Corbyn intolerable then a breakaway SDP Mk2 is not impossible.
    If Farron becomes LD leader he is arguably leftwing of Burnham and Cooper let alone Kendall. He is right of Corbyn, but not by much!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @schofieldkevin: Harriet Harman also sticking to her guns on child tax credit - Labour MPs will be whipped to abstain on welfare bill next week, not block it
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