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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,309
    If the last budget was George's Epic Strut I dread to think what the Sun will come up with this time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    Plato said:

    So what did you know in advance?! Did it appear?

    Harriet's response is like someone who has just witnessed Pearl Harbour - and chooses to focus on the noise pollution on a Sunday morning.....

    Only about the National Living Wage.... ;-)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    It's a fairly standard response from LotO. It's a toughgig to respond to the budget. This one perhaps more so given some of the tanks placed on Labour's lawn.

    Both Tony Blair and William Hague said, Budget Day was the most difficult parliamentary experience for them as Leader of the Opposition.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    The fun thing about budgets is that because they're secret until they're announced, on-message people only have a few minutes to reverse their message when the government snaffles an opposition policy.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Something to remember, £9/hr by 2020 isn't that much over an inflation rise in minimum wage every year.

    2014 NMW: £6.50/hr

    6 years at say 3% inflation (High side estimate) = £7.76

    A fair bit over actually.
    £9/hr only for over 25s though.

    So basically it is just another band to the minimum wage. I would prefer to see it based upon time worked. Seems highly unfair that somebody joins the workforce at 16, works hard, gets trained and 3 years later an employer can still pay them £6.50.

    Those are minimum wages, not targets or the amounts expected for trained workers.

    I know, but we know what has happened and does happened with any of these things. It becomes the level of the ceiling give or take a bit.

    Out of interest, I took a look last week at random jobs in the local paper across a wide variety of sector just out on interest and they all had something in common, £6.50/hr.

    A lot of jobs put in the local paper are unskilled/starter jobs though.

    Yes, sure, but we know there has been a real affect that minimum wage has anchored the top end of pay for unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. I am just saying that employers if they want can take on 16 years old and never pay them any more until 25.

    It might also have a perverse affect that 25 year olds become less attractive to employ.
    That's untrue. There are step changes at 16/18/21 and now 25. So a 16 year old gets an automatic pay rise after 2 and then another 3 years respectively.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,389
    edited July 2015
    Patrick said:



    There'll be acres of wailing and gnashing from Polly. But by 2020 the facts on the ground will be well established. The UK will be a freer, more competitive, more self reliant place.

    Polly was already depressed yesterday;

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/right-love-higher-wages-tax-credits

    After today, nothing less than an extended break at the Tusken Villa will cheer her up...
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Delighted that everyone now believes the Living Wage is a good idea. How swiftly views change, eh? If the Tories implement Labour policies that's not a problem for me.

    Companies will be happy to pay higher wages if taxes are cut which is the balance Osborne strikes.

    Expecting companies to pay higher wages while increasing their taxes (as Ed proposed) was bonkers.

    Big difference. Lower taxes = higher wages.

    If companies willingly paid higher wages in return for lower corporation tax a compulsory living wage would not be necessary.

    This is a good and very welcome move. Ditto on non-doms, ditto on BTR.

    I said a while back that Osborne towers over all other Tory (and Labour, to be fair) politicians. Today proved that. I don't agree with his political views, but I do admire his ability to play politics and to set the political landscape. He is a rare example of a politician learning on the job. The contrast to the early years of the Coalition is marked.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2015

    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Something to remember, £9/hr by 2020 isn't that much over an inflation rise in minimum wage every year.

    2014 NMW: £6.50/hr

    6 years at say 3% inflation (High side estimate) = £7.76

    A fair bit over actually.
    £9/hr only for over 25s though.

    So basically it is just another band to the minimum wage. I would prefer to see it based upon time worked. Seems highly unfair that somebody joins the workforce at 16, works hard, gets trained and 3 years later an employer can still pay them £6.50.

    Those are minimum wages, not targets or the amounts expected for trained workers.

    I know, but we know what has happened and does happened with any of these things. It becomes the level of the ceiling give or take a bit.

    Out of interest, I took a look last week at random jobs in the local paper across a wide variety of sector just out on interest and they all had something in common, £6.50/hr.

    A lot of jobs put in the local paper are unskilled/starter jobs though.

    Yes, sure, but we know there has been a real affect that minimum wage has anchored the top end of pay for unskilled and semi-skilled jobs. I am just saying that employers if they want can take on 16 years old and never pay them any more until 25.

    It might also have a perverse affect that 25 year olds become less attractive to employ.
    That's untrue. There are step changes at 16/18/21 and now 25. So a 16 year old gets an automatic pay rise after 2 and then another 3 years respectively.
    I knew there was a step change, but I thought it was just 18. I meant to say employers taking people on at 18. But you are right, I stand corrected.

    I still don't really like minimum wage based solely on age.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    The other interesting thing from today's budget.

    George Osborne really does look like someone who knows he wants to be Tory leader in a few years time.

    Up to a few months ago, I always thought he'd prefer to be the Eminence Grise for the next Tory leader after Dave
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    GIN1138 said:

    Patrick said:



    There'll be acres of wailing and gnashing from Polly. But by 2020 the facts on the ground will be well established. The UK will be a freer, more competitive, more self reliant place.

    Polly was already depressed yesterday;

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/07/right-love-higher-wages-tax-credits

    After today, nothing less than an extended break at the Tusken Villa will cheer her up...
    Is that why Jim (If we win the election) Naughtie ) leaving the Today programme.??/. Couldn't face interviewing hapless Labour shadow Cabinet members?
  • AllyPally_RobAllyPally_Rob Posts: 605
    edited July 2015
    Patrick said:

    This is a HUGE budget. It does two things:
    1. The centre ground has moved significantly towards 'sound money' macro-economics; and
    2. The individual benefits as the state retreats, shifting expectations of what you get vs what you give.

    There'll be acres of wailing and gnashing from Polly. But by 2020 the facts on the ground will be well established. The UK will be a freer, more competitive, more self reliant place.

    The centre ground on wages has however shifted significantly to the left. Nobody is arguing that the free market will take care of the low paid anymore.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    What was in the Labour manifesto ? Lolza !
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    If the last budget was George's Epic Strut I dread to think what the Sun will come up with this time.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/618767298602663936
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    It is the fall in unemployment that has allowed George to produce this move on the NMW. A fair argument against NMW always was that it could increase unemployment. With the rosy statistics, it can be afforded to be increased above inflation.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 10m10 minutes ago
    George Osborne commits to a national living wage by 2020. Sadly, the nation in question is Wales in 2014. #budget2015
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    A fair point. But a Tory government accepting he principle of a living wage is a pretty big move. Remember how opposed they used to be to even a minimum wage. If Labour is clever they will welcome this.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    The other interesting thing from today's budget.

    George Osborne really does look like someone who knows he wants to be Tory leader in a few years time.

    Up to a few months ago, I always thought he'd prefer to be the Eminence Grise for the next Tory leader after Dave

    More than that -- has there been a Granita-style agreement whereby the Chancellor becomes de facto Prime Minister for domestic policy while the PM handles "abroad"?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Delighted that everyone now believes the Living Wage is a good idea. How swiftly views change, eh? If the Tories implement Labour policies that's not a problem for me.

    Companies will be happy to pay higher wages if taxes are cut which is the balance Osborne strikes.

    Expecting companies to pay higher wages while increasing their taxes (as Ed proposed) was bonkers.

    Big difference. Lower taxes = higher wages.

    If companies willingly paid higher wages in return for lower corporation tax a compulsory living wage would not be necessary.

    This is a good and very welcome move. Ditto on non-doms, ditto on BTR.

    I said a while back that Osborne towers over all other Tory (and Labour, to be fair) politicians. Today proved that. I don't agree with his political views, but I do admire his ability to play politics and to set the political landscape. He is a rare example of a politician learning on the job. The contrast to the early years of the Coalition is marked.

    Companies don't get to volunteer what their tax rates and minimum/living wage rates are. This is an exchange - cut corp tax and raise wages is roughly neutral. Increase taxes and increase wages is a double whammy.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Well you had the corker in the Budget - must have been so exciting to know about and wait for!

    Plato said:

    So what did you know in advance?! Did it appear?

    Harriet's response is like someone who has just witnessed Pearl Harbour - and chooses to focus on the noise pollution on a Sunday morning.....

    Only about the National Living Wage.... ;-)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    If the last budget was George's Epic Strut I dread to think what the Sun will come up with this time.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/618767298602663936
    Oh God please not another front page like that again. I appreciate this budget but less of the vomit worthy sycophancy !
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,309

    If the last budget was George's Epic Strut I dread to think what the Sun will come up with this time.

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/618767298602663936
    May I suggest 'Magic Hike XXL' with a picture of Osborne's big reveal.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sports Direct share price plunged on the living wage news - lol.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Huge over-reaction in the share price of Berkeley IMO. Down 6%. A clear buying opportunity if you're not already exposed. The non-dom changes are not that significant.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    TGOHF said:

    Sports Direct share price plunged on the living wage news - lol.

    Arf
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    I presume we are still having national minimum wages, rather than making regional distinctions. I can't imagine even thinking about surviving on £6.50/hr in London, but it is certainly possible in the North (albeit you will still be piss poor).
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    What was in the Labour manifesto ? Lolza !
    Indeed, the minimum wage rise in Labour's manifesto was insufficient too. But they weren't freezing/cutting tax credits meaning the low-paid would still have had a (modest) rise in their income, as opposed to a cut from this budget.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Patrick said:

    This is a HUGE budget. It does two things:
    1. The centre ground has moved significantly towards 'sound money' macro-economics; and
    2. The individual benefits as the state retreats, shifting expectations of what you get vs what you give.

    There'll be acres of wailing and gnashing from Polly. But by 2020 the facts on the ground will be well established. The UK will be a freer, more competitive, more self reliant place.

    The centre ground on wages has however shifted significantly to the left. Nobody is arguing that the free market will take care of the low paid anymore.

    Spot on.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    Plato said:

    So what did you know in advance?! Did it appear?

    Harriet's response is like someone who has just witnessed Pearl Harbour - and chooses to focus on the noise pollution on a Sunday morning.....

    Only about the National Living Wage.... ;-)
    Kevin in line for a junior ministerial job any time soon :D ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    The other interesting thing from today's budget.

    George Osborne really does look like someone who knows he wants to be Tory leader in a few years time.

    Up to a few months ago, I always thought he'd prefer to be the Eminence Grise for the next Tory leader after Dave

    More than that -- has there been a Granita-style agreement whereby the Chancellor becomes de facto Prime Minister for domestic policy while the PM handles "abroad"?
    I think Cameron will go in 2018, which will help Osborne.

    I think being an incumbent Prime Minister will help the Tories in 2020, and Dave knows that too.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    The Living Wage is pure sound bite student politics. The whole concept stinks like a '60s income policy.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    A fair point. But a Tory government accepting he principle of a living wage is a pretty big move. Remember how opposed they used to be to even a minimum wage. If Labour is clever they will welcome this.

    Tbh, as critical as I often am of Labour, I don't think they'll find it that difficult to oppose this at all. All they need to do is wait for the IFS analysis showing the low-paid will get income drops, call it a "strivers' tax" or whatever and then go from there.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited July 2015
    A couple of googlies there, but wasn’t there also supposed to be a curve ball too? #NLW?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    But they will be earning their way rather than having their wages topped up by the government. It is a highly desirable change.

    Why tax people and then give it back to them via means tested benefit, better just to pay them more in the first place.

    The biggest losers are people who plan to have big families after 2017, the winners are undoubtedly the low paid who don't claim benefits.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Delighted that everyone now believes the Living Wage is a good idea. How swiftly views change, eh? If the Tories implement Labour policies that's not a problem for me.

    Companies will be happy to pay higher wages if taxes are cut which is the balance Osborne strikes.

    Expecting companies to pay higher wages while increasing their taxes (as Ed proposed) was bonkers.

    Big difference. Lower taxes = higher wages.

    If companies willingly paid higher wages in return for lower corporation tax a compulsory living wage would not be necessary.

    This is a good and very welcome move. Ditto on non-doms, ditto on BTR.

    I said a while back that Osborne towers over all other Tory (and Labour, to be fair) politicians. Today proved that. I don't agree with his political views, but I do admire his ability to play politics and to set the political landscape. He is a rare example of a politician learning on the job. The contrast to the early years of the Coalition is marked.

    Companies don't get to volunteer what their tax rates and minimum/living wage rates are. This is an exchange - cut corp tax and raise wages is roughly neutral. Increase taxes and increase wages is a double whammy.

    None of which demonstrates that businesses would voluntarily raise wages in the wake of a CT cut alone.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I think it's worth it just to annoy Labourites and shoot their fox.

    I don't like the terminology either - but it stopped a lot of huffing in its tracks.
    dr_spyn said:

    The Living Wage is pure sound bite student politics. The whole concept stinks like a '60s income policy.

  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243

    The other interesting thing from today's budget.
    George Osborne really does look like someone who knows he wants to be Tory leader in a few years time.
    Up to a few months ago, I always thought he'd prefer to be the Eminence Grise for the next Tory leader after Dave

    I think I suggested sometime before the last election that if the Tories won then it would be Osborne who would be favourite to be next leader. This is assuming he would like the job. Lets remember that the next leader will have to fight the next election and if he lost he would not be leader for long.
    What is important in respect of the next election is the expectation of the public and probably even now the expectation is that the tories will be winners.

  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    It is quite clear that Yvette Cooper is the real shadow chancellor. Chris Leslie looking at her every few seconds for approval. It's always difficult for the opposition to respond to budgets but over the years Labour's response has been dire. This one is no exception. It's hard to believe they have been listening to the same budget.

    Jo Coburn looks as though she has swallowed 'several' wasps. Now over to WIMBLEDON.
  • dr_spyn said:

    The Living Wage is pure sound bite student politics. The whole concept stinks like a '60s income policy.

    True, but bear in mind that the prices and incomes policy in the 1960s and 1970s was seen by a majority of parliamentarians as a sensible, moderate and reasonable measure.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    dr_spyn said:

    The Living Wage is pure sound bite student politics. The whole concept stinks like a '60s income policy.

    Yup, this budget is a synthesis of all the worst policies of the Tories and Ed Miliband.

    The voters are going to love it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    TGOHF said:

    Sports Direct share price plunged on the living wage news - lol.

    Not sure why, they will just hire people aged 18-24.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    Pulpstar said:

    Plato said:

    So what did you know in advance?! Did it appear?

    Harriet's response is like someone who has just witnessed Pearl Harbour - and chooses to focus on the noise pollution on a Sunday morning.....

    Only about the National Living Wage.... ;-)
    Kevin in line for a junior ministerial job any time soon :D ?
    It didn't come from Kevin! Someone a little closer to the process (and probably saying more than he should under purdah).

    It was certainly thought that this would be politically significant, as an embodiment of One Nation Conservatism, especially in the SW where so many people are on the minimum wage. Hard to see how the LibDems get any traction down here now...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    TGOHF said:

    I reckon this will be the image/video of the day

    The quiet man is here to bray.
    Conservatives cheering the poor getting a pay rise - detoxification complete.

    Well, technically that will only be the case if areas which have almost no votes for the Tories start increasing the Tory share, even if they don't win there, but as an issue it makes it harder to make the toxic point, on the face of it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    A fair point. But a Tory government accepting he principle of a living wage is a pretty big move. Remember how opposed they used to be to even a minimum wage. If Labour is clever they will welcome this.

    Tbh, as critical as I often am of Labour, I don't think they'll find it that difficult to oppose this at all. All they need to do is wait for the IFS analysis showing the low-paid will get income drops, call it a "strivers' tax" or whatever and then go from there.

    If they oppose a national living wage they would be even more stupid than I think they are. That does not mean to say they cannot oppose cuts that will do substantial damage to the poorest and most vulnerable. But Labour has to talk for more than them if it is ever to win again - and rightly so.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited July 2015
    dr_spyn said:

    The Living Wage is pure sound bite student politics. The whole concept stinks like a '60s income policy.

    its a good shuffle - instead of taking and giving between state and employee its now subcontracted to business. The state does less - rejoice.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,309
    edited July 2015

    The other interesting thing from today's budget.

    George Osborne really does look like someone who knows he wants to be Tory leader in a few years time.

    Up to a few months ago, I always thought he'd prefer to be the Eminence Grise for the next Tory leader after Dave

    More than that -- has there been a Granita-style agreement whereby the Chancellor becomes de facto Prime Minister for domestic policy while the PM handles "abroad"?
    In fantasy mode: Maybe a Granita-style agreement between the Queen and Cameron to stop Charles whereby Cameron becomes the first constitutional President while Osborne takes over the running of government.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Delighted that everyone now believes the Living Wage is a good idea. How swiftly views change, eh? If the Tories implement Labour policies that's not a problem for me.

    Companies will be happy to pay higher wages if taxes are cut which is the balance Osborne strikes.

    Expecting companies to pay higher wages while increasing their taxes (as Ed proposed) was bonkers.

    Big difference. Lower taxes = higher wages.

    If companies willingly paid higher wages in return for lower corporation tax a compulsory living wage would not be necessary.

    This is a good and very welcome move. Ditto on non-doms, ditto on BTR.

    I said a while back that Osborne towers over all other Tory (and Labour, to be fair) politicians. Today proved that. I don't agree with his political views, but I do admire his ability to play politics and to set the political landscape. He is a rare example of a politician learning on the job. The contrast to the early years of the Coalition is marked.

    Companies don't get to volunteer what their tax rates and minimum/living wage rates are. This is an exchange - cut corp tax and raise wages is roughly neutral. Increase taxes and increase wages is a double whammy.

    None of which demonstrates that businesses would voluntarily raise wages in the wake of a CT cut alone.

    I didn't say they would, I said Osborne struck a good balance - whereas the alternative the Opposition proposed of higher taxes plus higher costs was not balanced.

    But of course having a level playing field means not just that costs are higher but that customers have higher incomes. If anything its slightly inflationary (and I think we can do with a bit more inflation currently when its zero).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,045
    Danny565 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    What was in the Labour manifesto ? Lolza !
    Indeed, the minimum wage rise in Labour's manifesto was insufficient too. But they weren't freezing/cutting tax credits meaning the low-paid would still have had a (modest) rise in their income, as opposed to a cut from this budget.
    Won't people on minimum wage see their income tax threshold go up? Also the tax credits withdrawal won't affect anyone currently claiming and will in future reduce credits to people on higher incomes than the minimum wage. The only negative change will be to those having more children in the future.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited July 2015
    Cuts in Corp Tax are superb news. Hope this gets the right level of coverage.

    Which Western countries have rates lower or equal to 18%?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,045
    Plato said:

    Cuts in Corp Tax are superb news. Hope this gets the right level of coverage.

    Which Western countries have rates lower or equal to 18%?

    Only Ireland and Luxembourg in the EU.
  • With these changes to corporation tax/living wage/tax credits it kind of feels that the Government is shuffling money round in a circle

    Low paid employees gain from companies due to living wage hike
    The Government gains from low paid employees due to tax credit reductions
    Companies gain from the Government due to reduced corporation tax.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    That's my understanding. If there are any serious issues - we'll know in the next 24hrs.
    Sandpit said:

    Danny565 said:

    TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    What was in the Labour manifesto ? Lolza !
    Indeed, the minimum wage rise in Labour's manifesto was insufficient too. But they weren't freezing/cutting tax credits meaning the low-paid would still have had a (modest) rise in their income, as opposed to a cut from this budget.
    Won't people on minimum wage see their income tax threshold go up? Also the tax credits withdrawal won't affect anyone currently claiming and will in future reduce credits to people on higher incomes than the minimum wage. The only negative change will be to those having more children in the future.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969
    Plato said:

    Cuts in Corp Tax are superb news. Hope this gets the right level of coverage.

    Which Western countries have rates lower or equal to 18%?

    As I've said before, George has been very canny - insisting that the world rallies around the taxing of large global corporations SOMEWHERE - and then offering to be that somewhere with the lowest levels of corporation tax....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Superb - thanx.
    Sandpit said:

    Plato said:

    Cuts in Corp Tax are superb news. Hope this gets the right level of coverage.

    Which Western countries have rates lower or equal to 18%?

    Only Ireland and Luxembourg in the EU.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    A great many on minimum wage do not receive tax credits.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    chestnut said:

    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    A great many on minimum wage do not receive tax credits.
    And all of them just for a hike in Income Tax thresholds.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,064
    NLW annual rate is £13.1k working full time from next year, a rise from £11.8k, Labour can't oppose this introduction.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Plato said:

    Cuts in Corp Tax are superb news. Hope this gets the right level of coverage.

    Which Western countries have rates lower or equal to 18%?

    Ireland 12.5% for trading income. Has to be the long-term goal surely for us?
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    MaxPB said:

    NLW annual rate is £13.1k working full time from next year, a rise from £11.8k, Labour can't oppose this introduction.

    And getting to keep at least £900 more of it.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038
    antifrank said:

    This is an enormously important budget. Most of the next five years' politics are set out in it.

    Well I got that right. And the increase in the NMW. And that the benefits cuts would be even larger than had been announced. And the £1m (effectively) for Inheritance Tax. And the attack on HB.

    But I really thought he would be able to accelerate the elimination of the deficit. Instead balance is postponed yet again. It shows how deep our structural deficit was and is. Reducing this deficit is incredibly hard work.

    It now looks increasingly likely that George will never have a surplus as Chancellor. He deserves better.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    With 5 grand of tax free dividends and tax free cash savings interest ISAs have no basically become pointless except for those who've been stashing away the max for years.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,969

    A couple of googlies there, but wasn’t there also supposed to be a curve ball too? #NLW?

    It was a curve ball if you were Labour!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    With these changes to corporation tax/living wage/tax credits it kind of feels that the Government is shuffling money round in a circle

    Low paid employees gain from companies due to living wage hike
    The Government gains from low paid employees due to tax credit reductions
    Companies gain from the Government due to reduced corporation tax.

    Sort of. What's happening is the Government is stopping a circle. Previously companies were taxed, employees were taxed, employees got money back in tax credits.

    Now companies pay wages.

    Which is a more sensible and simple system?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    Plato said:

    Cuts in Corp Tax are superb news. Hope this gets the right level of coverage.

    Which Western countries have rates lower or equal to 18%?

    As I've said before, George has been very canny - insisting that the world rallies around the taxing of large global corporations SOMEWHERE - and then offering to be that somewhere with the lowest levels of corporation tax....
    If the EU is smart it will try to harmonise it's corporation tax rate to 18% too. Seeing as most people at or near the top are gravy training Luxembourgers, they won't.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,175
    Danny565 said:

    You guys do realise that £9 an hour is not a living wage, and that the low-paid are likely to still face drops in their incomes after the tax-credit cuts, right?

    Don't let that get in the way of your 2012-esque spin at what a genius Osborne is, though.

    I feel your pain. Do you want Labour to vote against it then?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,309
    DavidL said:

    It now looks increasingly likely that George will never have a surplus as Chancellor. He deserves better.

    The test of how effective Osborne has been will be in how many years we stay in surplus when we finally reach it. It's not much good rushing to achieve a surplus if you're forced into a rapid fiscal reversal as soon as trouble hits.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,533
    edited July 2015
    "£100k" Leslie really is rubbish.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    DavidL said:

    It now looks increasingly likely that George will never have a surplus as Chancellor. He deserves better.

    The test of how effective Osborne has been will be in how many years we stay in surplus when we finally reach it. It's not much good rushing to achieve a surplus if you're forced into a rapid fiscal reversal as soon as trouble hits.
    No the whole point of running a surplus is in order to be able to run a deficit when you're in trouble. That is sound economics.

    What would be bad is if we reach a tiny surplus then start running deficits again in good times.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038

    DavidL said:

    It now looks increasingly likely that George will never have a surplus as Chancellor. He deserves better.

    The test of how effective Osborne has been will be in how many years we stay in surplus when we finally reach it. It's not much good rushing to achieve a surplus if you're forced into a rapid fiscal reversal as soon as trouble hits.
    I agree.

    As I said the last 6 years now have shown how deep a hole we were in. To have a deficit 12 years after the crash assumes an extremely long economic cycle. There is absolutely no question we will go into the next downturn with debt at at least double the level it was in 2007 as a share of GDP. This is not good and the Brown legacy.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: Chris Leslie currently on TV explaining that as a result of winning the election George Osborne has been forced to accept Labour was right.

    @ToryTreasury: Bizarrely, Labour seem to be opposing the National Living Wage.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,663
    edited July 2015

    DavidL said:

    It now looks increasingly likely that George will never have a surplus as Chancellor. He deserves better.

    The test of how effective Osborne has been will be in how many years we stay in surplus when we finally reach it. It's not much good rushing to achieve a surplus if you're forced into a rapid fiscal reversal as soon as trouble hits.
    No the whole point of running a surplus is in order to be able to run a deficit when you're in trouble. That is sound economics.

    What would be bad is if we reach a tiny surplus then start running deficits again in good times.
    According to the IMF, we have the worse cyclically adjusted deficit in the developed world.

    But we shouldn't worry too much about the symbolic nature of a surplus. The key is reducing debt-to-GDP. If we assume 2.5% GDP growth through the cycle, and 1.5% inflation, that means that the budget deficit needs to (approximately) be less than about 3.5% through the cycle. If we can achieve that, we will see UK debt-to-GDP gently gliding down towards the 75% level on a 10 year view.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,160

    It is quite clear that Yvette Cooper is the real shadow chancellor. Chris Leslie looking at her every few seconds for approval. It's always difficult for the opposition to respond to budgets but over the years Labour's response has been dire. This one is no exception. It's hard to believe they have been listening to the same budget.

    Jo Coburn looks as though she has swallowed 'several' wasps. Now over to WIMBLEDON.

    BRITISH tennis ace Murray takes first set against Canada's Pospisil!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,309
    This kind of event shows Nick Robinson's style of reporting at its worst. It's all about party tactics to him with no interest in substance.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited July 2015
    ..
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited July 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    DavidL said:

    It now looks increasingly likely that George will never have a surplus as Chancellor. He deserves better.

    The test of how effective Osborne has been will be in how many years we stay in surplus when we finally reach it. It's not much good rushing to achieve a surplus if you're forced into a rapid fiscal reversal as soon as trouble hits.
    No the whole point of running a surplus is in order to be able to run a deficit when you're in trouble. That is sound economics.

    What would be bad is if we reach a tiny surplus then start running deficits again in good times.
    According to the IMF, we have the worse cyclically adjusted deficit in the developed world.

    But we shouldn't worry too much about the symbolic nature of a surplus. The key is reducing debt-to-GDP. If we assume 2.5% GDP growth through the cycle, and 1.5% inflation, that means that the budget deficit needs to (approximately) be less than about 3.5% through the cycle. If we can achieve that, we will see UK debt-to-GDP gently gliding down towards the 75% level on a 10 year view.
    Both assumptions are optimistic. Within 10 years I'd expect a recession (its already six years since the last one ended so that's 16 years) so 2.5% isn't likely. Inflation is currently zero.

    Furthermore I'd view 75% as too high anyway. Ideally I'd like to see our debt-to-GDP ratio back around 40% - however there's plenty of economic evidence that a debt ratio over 70% has a negative impact on long term growth. We need to get back below that and aim to reduce it further, not accept 75% as OK only to then see it explode above 100% next time there's a crash.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    new thread

This discussion has been closed.