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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Burnham comes out against extending Sunday shopping hours

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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    It's reactionary knee jerkism. It's Mr Angry politics. Hague was great at it, Ed could do it now and then as well. Kinnock was truly the master.

    Whatever is said or done, even on things you probably would agree with, you oppose it. You find a vocal group of people who support you.

    It's the path to political oblivion, even if you have wider support on that particular issue.

    Tsipras, Sturgeon and Farage do not seem to have done too badly out of it
    HYUFD Farage doesn't lead a government, unlike Alexis or Nicola!
    He did quadruple his vote though and win the European elections
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    Genesis 2:2 'By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.'

    Exodus 20:8-11 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall LABOR, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.'
    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    HYUFD said:

    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    Genesis 2:2 'By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.'

    Exodus 20:8-11 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall LABOR, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.'
    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!
    It is a day to be set aside for religious worship, for contemplation, family and rest from the labours of the week
    Bit of a bugger for those whose holy day is a Friday or Saturday.
    Or for those who don't observe a "Holy Day" :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    If my cinema can open from 9am on a Sunday, and stay open until 11pm then so should my local Waitrose, Tesco et al.

    "Socialists cry "Power to the people", and raise the clenched fist as they say it. We all know what they really mean — power over people, power to the State!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1986.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991
    edited July 2015

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    It's reactionary knee jerkism. It's Mr Angry politics. Hague was great at it, Ed could do it now and then as well. Kinnock was truly the master.

    Whatever is said or done, even on things you probably would agree with, you oppose it. You find a vocal group of people who support you.

    It's the path to political oblivion, even if you have wider support on that particular issue.

    Tsipras, Sturgeon and Farage do not seem to have done too badly out of it
    HYUFD Farage doesn't lead a government, unlike Alexis or Nicola!
    He did quadruple his vote though and win the European elections
    Big whoop. Come back with some news when he wins seats - and he didn't win the European Elections, do you see Farage in government in Europe?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    It's reactionary knee jerkism. It's Mr Angry politics. Hague was great at it, Ed could do it now and then as well. Kinnock was truly the master.

    Whatever is said or done, even on things you probably would agree with, you oppose it. You find a vocal group of people who support you.

    It's the path to political oblivion, even if you have wider support on that particular issue.

    Tsipras, Sturgeon and Farage do not seem to have done too badly out of it
    HYUFD Farage doesn't lead a government, unlike Alexis or Nicola!
    He did quadruple his vote though and win the European elections
    But he's not GOVERNING Europe is he, HYUFD?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    If my cinema can open from 9am on a Sunday, and stay open until 11pm then so should my local Waitrose, Tesco et al.

    A family outcome to the cinema, perhaps to see 'the Passion of the Christ' arguably constitutes a day of rest anyway!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    It's reactionary knee jerkism. It's Mr Angry politics. Hague was great at it, Ed could do it now and then as well. Kinnock was truly the master.

    Whatever is said or done, even on things you probably would agree with, you oppose it. You find a vocal group of people who support you.

    It's the path to political oblivion, even if you have wider support on that particular issue.

    Tsipras, Sturgeon and Farage do not seem to have done too badly out of it
    HYUFD Farage doesn't lead a government, unlike Alexis or Nicola!
    He did quadruple his vote though and win the European elections
    But he's not GOVERNING Europe is he, HYUFD?
    That's the Junker and Merkel comedy duo !
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    edited July 2015
    https://vine.co/v/enOh312Fli6

    Greek Talks wit ECB for extended bailout make progress
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    Indigo said:

    What about the religious beliefs of the shop staff ?

    They can make arrangements as individuals. Considering the sabbath is a Saturday, while for Muslims its a Friday then Sunday trading laws for everyone should have nothing to do with religion.
    If more workers are needed on a Sunday through late opening hours it may not be possible to ensure all Christians, Muslims and Jews can respect their Sabbath Day if the workforce stays the same
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    My German is a bit rusty, I think the Germans are asking for George Osborne...

    https://twitter.com/CasMudde/status/618404960556969984
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    Genesis 2:2 'By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.'

    Exodus 20:8-11 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall LABOR, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.'
    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    HYUFD said:

    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    Genesis 2:2 'By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.'

    Exodus 20:8-11 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall LABOR, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.'
    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!
    It is a day to be set aside for religious worship, for contemplation, family and rest from the labours of the week
    Bit of a bugger for those whose holy day is a Friday or Saturday.
    Muslims and Jews already have the right to respect their own Sabbath Day enshrined by law
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Around here, we still get the locally run shops closing for a half-day on a Wednesday - in the middle of the tourist season. They close every Sunday, even the Sunday before Christmas and then moan about lack of business.
    Plato said:

    I used to regularly shop at about 3am when I worked very strange hours - the advent of 24/7 Tescos was brilliant.

    My new local supermarket is only open 7am-10pm because that's what the local customers will support. A larger store down the road is open 24/7 as it's got a wider reach and fulfills online orders for a large chunk of Eastern Sx.

    Talking about Sunday Trading feels so thirty years ago.

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    Smart move for this selectorate - it's USDAW's big campaign issue, and they are the traditional union that backs centre-right (in Labour terms) candidates: this will tilt them away from Kendall if she goes the other way. I also think the public is split between people who find longer opening hours mildly convenient (but won't switch their votes over it) vs people who are strongly opposed: it's one of those issues where you gain votes from a minority who actually take an interest.

    I've often met non-Labour voters, especially women, who say they think it's a bit of a shame not to ensure that Sunday's a bit of a break from the normal hectic life. I don't think I've ever met a voter who said that this change was important to them, though of course if shops are open people will use them. It's not obvious that it will increase actual total purchases, so the economic benefits are unclear.

    snip

    Indeed, no-one is going to vote on the basis they can shop on Sunday until 10pm rather than 4pm, a few religious voters may switch their vote if a candidate promises to respect the Sabbath's tradition as a day of rest

    Should imagine relaxation of these laws would mean more growth, more employment, more VAT returns, more tax receipts etc etc - which will move votes.
    The increase in takings from opening on a Sunday evening would be little more than zero
    Lol - so if shops were only open on a Saturday takings would remain static as everyone would do all their shopping in one day ?

    Is online spending on Xmas day zero ?



    The number who would physically pend their Sunday evening going shopping rather than doing it at any other time on the weekend are virtually nil
    No, I remember times when I've felt like doing a shop on a Sunday Evening, definitely. It's a quiet time - and not much else is going on... so can be ideal.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Paul Mason: "This is a historic day for Europe".

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLLi6Vj9m8&index=1&list=PLXjqQf1xYLQ47IJ7OIRD2uP7cbhhjBU7B
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    edited July 2015

    My German is a bit rusty, I think the Germans are asking for George Osborne...

    twitter.com/CasMudde/status/618404960556969984

    I don't know why in the English language we have to call the German Prime Minister (that's what she is!) a lowly "Chancellor" :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    AndyJS said:

    Paul Mason: "This is a historic day for Europe".

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLLi6Vj9m8&index=1&list=PLXjqQf1xYLQ47IJ7OIRD2uP7cbhhjBU7B

    24 hours to save the NHS Greek Economy!
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    I suppose it's understandable that the candidates are focusing on the leadership election but this is horrible positioning for Labour. It's like gay marriage: It's controversial until it happens, but once it's done the way things used to be will seem mad in retrospect, and to the extent that anyone can remember who opposed it they just end up seeming ridiculous.

    To whit, a tweet right on cue:

    Stephen Bush ‏@stephenkb 2 minutes ago

    Fun fact: Labour opposed the creation of ITV in 1955 and was still agnostic on it in 1959, four years after its creation.
    The Tories must be sitting around giggling trying to work out what other stupid shit they can get Labour candidates to commit to ahead of the leadership election.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Refusing to move with the times is just idiotic. My local village shops often had Weds PM off, and wondered why town centre shoppers were leaving...
    Financier said:

    Around here, we still get the locally run shops closing for a half-day on a Wednesday - in the middle of the tourist season. They close every Sunday, even the Sunday before Christmas and then moan about lack of business.

    Plato said:



    Talking about Sunday Trading feels so thirty years ago.

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    TGOHF said:

    HYUFD said:

    Smart move for this selectorate - it's USDAW's big campaign issue, and they are the traditional union that backs centre-right (in Labour terms) candidates: this will tilt them away from Kendall if she goes the other way. I also think the public is split between people who find longer opening hours mildly convenient (but won't switch their votes over it) vs people who are strongly opposed: it's one of those issues where you gain votes from a minority who actually take an interest.

    snip

    Indeed, no-one is going to vote on the basis they can shop on Sunday until 10pm rather than 4pm, a few religious voters may switch their vote if a candidate promises to respect the Sabbath's tradition as a day of rest

    Should imagine relaxation of these laws would mean more growth, more employment, more VAT returns, more tax receipts etc etc - which will move votes.
    The increase in takings from opening on a Sunday evening would be little more than zero
    Lol - so if shops were only open on a Saturday takings would remain static as everyone would do all their shopping in one day ?

    Is online spending on Xmas day zero ?



    The number who would physically pend their Sunday evening going shopping rather than doing it at any other time on the weekend are virtually nil
    No, I remember times when I've felt like doing a shop on a Sunday Evening, definitely. It's a quiet time - and not much else is going on... so can be ideal.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,308

    My German is a bit rusty, I think the Germans are asking for George Osborne...

    They're saying 'Bring back the Deutschmark Bismarck'
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    What about the religious beliefs of the shop staff ?

    They can make arrangements as individuals. Considering the sabbath is a Saturday, while for Muslims its a Friday then Sunday trading laws for everyone should have nothing to do with religion.
    If more workers are needed on a Sunday through late opening hours it may not be possible to ensure all Christians, Muslims and Jews can respect their Sabbath Day if the workforce stays the same
    Why? All three are minorities so why couldn't they be respected by the vast majority of non-Church (or other) going people?

    Fewer than 800,000 people attend Church of England Sunday Services, just 1.2% of the population. I suspect amongst shop workers that figure is even lower. Shops can cope with fewer than 1% of their employees wanting to attend service without the law compelling them to close - especially since finding cover is easier in larger businesses which is the only one the law compels to close.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    Genesis 2:2 'By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.'

    Exodus 20:8-11 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall LABOR, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.'
    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    HYUFD said:

    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!

    Genesis 2:2 'By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.'

    Exodus 20:8-11 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall LABOR, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.'
    Why would an Almighty, Omniscient God need to "rest" like a mere mortal?

    Anthropomorphism of the worst kind!
    It is a day to be set aside for religious worship, for contemplation, family and rest from the labours of the week
    Bit of a bugger for those whose holy day is a Friday or Saturday.
    Muslims and Jews already have the right to respect their own Sabbath Day enshrined by law
    You still haven't told us WHY an omnipotent, omniscient God would need to "rest" like a mere mortal!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991
    edited July 2015

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708

    My German is a bit rusty, I think the Germans are asking for George Osborne...

    twitter.com/CasMudde/status/618404960556969984

    I don't know why in the English language we have to call the German Prime Minister (that's what she is!) a lowly "Chancellor" :)
    There are loads of examples like this, like calling the King of Japan the "Emperor", even though his empire consists of five uninhabited islets and three barren rocks, and the Chinese are trying to take those.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    edited July 2015
    Danny565 said:
    Ilford North 4 Liz???

    (I know Wes Streeting MP backs her)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    My German is a bit rusty, I think the Germans are asking for George Osborne...

    twitter.com/CasMudde/status/618404960556969984

    I don't know why in the English language we have to call the German Prime Minister (that's what she is!) a lowly "Chancellor" :)
    All the truly great leaders are given the title Dictator.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    If we get to 24/7 shopping there is greater risk of religious workers being unable to adjust their shift patterns to respect their Sabbath Day then anyone missing getting a pint of milk of an evening!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    My German is a bit rusty, I think the Germans are asking for George Osborne...

    twitter.com/CasMudde/status/618404960556969984

    I don't know why in the English language we have to call the German Prime Minister (that's what she is!) a lowly "Chancellor" :)
    All the truly great leaders are given the title Dictator.
    Or "Dick" for short? :lol:
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    It's reactionary knee jerkism. It's Mr Angry politics. Hague was great at it, Ed could do it now and then as well. Kinnock was truly the master.

    Whatever is said or done, even on things you probably would agree with, you oppose it. You find a vocal group of people who support you.

    It's the path to political oblivion, even if you have wider support on that particular issue.

    Tsipras, Sturgeon and Farage do not seem to have done too badly out of it
    HYUFD Farage doesn't lead a government, unlike Alexis or Nicola!
    He did quadruple his vote though and win the European elections
    But he's not GOVERNING Europe is he, HYUFD?
    Well neither are Cameron, Sturgeon or Tsipras
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    edited July 2015
    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
    Since this country isn't a Christian country. Its at most an agnostic country. Cries of "but won't someone think of Sunday Service" are pathetic and laughable when less than 800k attend it. Move on and worship your own sky fairy however you please, you don't need the law to be shaped around your sky fairy.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300


    This just makes me wonder if we are in for another omnishambles budget -- like the 2012 one, a series of reasonable-looking measures to tidy up anomalies but collectively a kick in the undercarriage to Tory supporters.

    Forget Labour and what Mrs Thatcher said about socialists. If this is to be an omnishambles, then are there any Tory groups who will be damaged by this?

    Not just those who would keep the sabbath but those who would not, like small business owners who currently have Sundays to themselves, or who now close on Sundays but might be forced to open if Tesco does.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Danny565 said:
    I don't really know why they bother. It's surely irrelevant - the vast majority of members and affiliates will vote for the candidate they want to win, rather than the one their CLP has nominated.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    If we get to 24/7 shopping there is greater risk of religious workers being unable to adjust their shift patterns to respect their Sabbath Day then anyone missing getting a pint of milk of an evening!
    No there isn't. Anyway that's an issue for them to deal with.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
    You still haven't told us unworthy heathens WHY an omnipotent, omniscient God would need to "rest" like a mere mortal!
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    In his infinite wisdom, he can foresee that it'll be raining then?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    It's reactionary knee jerkism. It's Mr Angry politics. Hague was great at it, Ed could do it now and then as well. Kinnock was truly the master.

    Whatever is said or done, even on things you probably would agree with, you oppose it. You find a vocal group of people who support you.

    It's the path to political oblivion, even if you have wider support on that particular issue.

    Tsipras, Sturgeon and Farage do not seem to have done too badly out of it
    HYUFD Farage doesn't lead a government, unlike Alexis or Nicola!
    He did quadruple his vote though and win the European elections
    But he's not GOVERNING Europe is he, HYUFD?
    Well neither are Cameron, Sturgeon or Tsipras
    HYUFD take you blinkers off. Cameron is governing the UK, Sturgeon is FM in Scotland and Tsipras is PM in Greece.

    Which country is Nigel PM or FM of?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
    You still haven't told us unworthy heathens WHY an omnipotent, omniscient God would need to "rest" like a mere mortal!
    Because his sky fairy has to rest on a Saturday because a book written thousands of years ago that has been amended throughout those thousands of years said he had to rest on Saturday. That is why we need to close on Sundays.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    HYUFD said:

    Indigo said:

    What about the religious beliefs of the shop staff ?

    They can make arrangements as individuals. Considering the sabbath is a Saturday, while for Muslims its a Friday then Sunday trading laws for everyone should have nothing to do with religion.
    If more workers are needed on a Sunday through late opening hours it may not be possible to ensure all Christians, Muslims and Jews can respect their Sabbath Day if the workforce stays the same
    Why? All three are minorities so why couldn't they be respected by the vast majority of non-Church (or other) going people?

    Fewer than 800,000 people attend Church of England Sunday Services, just 1.2% of the population. I suspect amongst shop workers that figure is even lower. Shops can cope with fewer than 1% of their employees wanting to attend service without the law compelling them to close - especially since finding cover is easier in larger businesses which is the only one the law compels to close.
    Don't forget all those 800,000 may not even be christians - there are around 10k christenings a month ;p
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Union man speaks out as expected...

    Shock horror
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
    You still haven't told us unworthy heathens WHY an omnipotent, omniscient God would need to "rest" like a mere mortal!
    To set aside a day to appreciate what he had made and for contemplation I would imagine, however sadly I do not have a direct hotline to the Almighty to confirm the answer with him!!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    You'd have thought Greece would have recognised the urgency of the situation but apparently not:

    "Multiple sources are now reporting that Greece hasn’t brought new proposals to the Eurogroup (as rumoured earlier). According to a third eurozone official, Greece will instead present its new plan tomorrow."

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/07/greek-debt-crisis-alex-tsipras-seeks-last-chance-deal-live
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    If we get to 24/7 shopping there is greater risk of religious workers being unable to adjust their shift patterns to respect their Sabbath Day then anyone missing getting a pint of milk of an evening!
    No there isn't. Anyway that's an issue for them to deal with.
    So you want to have your right for 24 hour shopping respected but not that of the religious to ensure they can observe the Sabbath!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
    You still haven't told us unworthy heathens WHY an omnipotent, omniscient God would need to "rest" like a mere mortal!
    To set aside a day to appreciate what he had made and for contemplation I would imagine, however sadly I do not have a direct hotline to the Almighty to confirm the answer with him!!
    Do YOU think the Almighty would need to "rest"?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    HYUFD said:


    If we get to 24/7 shopping there is greater risk of religious workers being unable to adjust their shift patterns to respect their Sabbath Day then anyone missing getting a pint of milk of an evening!

    I think it's the other way around. If you're not working on your Sabbath Day then you need to be working at some other time, and if you close off a bunch of other times then you have less leeway to come up with a shift that leaves the day you want clear.

    If everybody had the same day then I suppose you could shut everything down on that day, but there are a bunch of different religious and for whatever reason they don't seem to be able to agree which day it should be.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    edited July 2015

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    Do you think the Test Cricket will be more boring than the Budget, or vice versa?

    :lol:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    AndyJS said:

    You'd have thought Greece would have recognised the urgency of the situation but apparently not:

    "Multiple sources are now reporting that Greece hasn’t brought new proposals to the Eurogroup (as rumoured earlier). According to a third eurozone official, Greece will instead present its new plan tomorrow."

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/jul/07/greek-debt-crisis-alex-tsipras-seeks-last-chance-deal-live

    "Sorry Ms Merkel, the dog ate our homework"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight and would frequently do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work first thing in the morning, most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
    Since this country isn't a Christian country. Its at most an agnostic country. Cries of "but won't someone think of Sunday Service" are pathetic and laughable when less than 800k attend it. Move on and worship your own sky fairy however you please, you don't need the law to be shaped around your sky fairy.
    59% of people declared themselves Christian in the 2011 census, plus the 8% affiliated to other religions
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:


    If we get to 24/7 shopping there is greater risk of religious workers being unable to adjust their shift patterns to respect their Sabbath Day then anyone missing getting a pint of milk of an evening!

    I think it's the other way around. If you're not working on your Sabbath Day then you need to be working at some other time, and if you close off a bunch of other times then you have less leeway to come up with a shift that leaves the day you want clear.

    If everybody had the same day then I suppose you could shut everything down on that day, but there are a bunch of different religious and for whatever reason they don't seem to be able to agree which day it should be.
    Not only that but if you shut down Sunday as an option then for those who want to work Mon-Sat you are competing for shifts with those who are willing to work on Sunday. By allowing those who don't care to work on Sundays you free up Mon-Sat shifts for those that do.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the emergency budget at the same time as Greece brings its bailout proposals forward
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    Do think the Test Cricket will be more boring than the Budget, or vice versa?

    :lol:
    If England are batting then hopefully the budget will be more exciting.

    If England are bowling, then the cricket should be more interesting.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who aresee a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    You have from 10am-6pm to go to Tesco and B and Q on a Sunday as the law stands, that is ample time to get what you need
    You don't know me or my life. I say it is not ample time, who are you to say otherwise?

    I used to work shift work until midnight do shopping on my way home in my so-called 24 hours Tesco's. Sunday trading regulations don't just screw up Sundays but Saturdays too. Saturday and Sunday nights on my way home the Tesco's would be closed.

    If they want to open and I want to shop there then you can mind your own business.
    I worked nights for a few months after university, you can quite easily do your shopping before you start work
    most supermarkets are open from 6/7am on Saturdays as well as in the week
    Your choice not mine. I want a 24/7 society, so do many others. You are not compelled to shop if you don't want to, while I am banned from doing what I desire. You need to do better to justify that than say "you can make other arrangements".
    "Socialists don't like ordinary people choosing, for they might not choose Socialism!"
    - M. H. Thatcher, 1989.
    Since when has respecting the Bible been socialism? Thatcher suffered her only parliamentary defeat in 1986 on the Shops Bill when 72 Christian Conservative MPs defied the whip to vote against it, being a staunch Methodist herself she took note and did not introduce the measure again
    Since this country isn't a Christian country. Its at most an agnostic country. Cries of "but won't someone think of Sunday Service" are pathetic and laughable when less than 800k attend it. Move on and worship your own sky fairy however you please, you don't need the law to be shaped around your sky fairy.
    59% of people declared themselves Christian in the 2011 census, plus the 8% affiliated to other religions
    How many of them observe the Sabbath?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    Sunil Is there a regular "Holy day" in Hinduism - or is that a trait unique to the three abrahamic religions.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    Since this country isn't a Christian country. Its at most an agnostic country. Cries of "but won't someone think of Sunday Service" are pathetic and laughable when less than 800k attend it. Move on and worship your own sky fairy however you please, you don't need the law to be shaped around your sky fairy.

    59% of people declared themselves Christian in the 2011 census, plus the 8% affiliated to other religions
    So what? Many people tick a box just because their parents were religious, but that doesn't mean they care about working on Sunday just because the Bible forbids working on Saturdays does it. Especially since we know that less than 0.8 million attend CoE Sunday Services The Bible says a lot of stuff but that doesn't mean it should be the law.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the emergency budget at the same time as Greece brings its bailout proposals forward
    Because he's a truly great master strategist.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2015
    Plato said:

    Well quite.

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    Well actually not quite.. There will be Christians and those of other religious denominations who don't want to work on Sunday being forced to do so by their employer,.

    I forsee court cases on this coming down the line.

    In any event.... I think I saw a dead cat on the table.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984
    HYUFD said:


    59% of people declared themselves Christian in the 2011 census, plus the 8% affiliated to other religions

    I put myself down as a Muslim on the census.

    Trust me, I'm not very religious.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,045

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    I know, disgraceful. Would never have happened in John Major's day!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Has trading in Greek 10 year bonds been suspended? The figure has been stuck at 18.089 all day:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GGGB10YR:IND
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the emergency budget at the same time as Greece brings its bailout proposals forward
    Because he's a truly great master strategist.
    That goes without saying

    Osborne for leader, can I count you in?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    edited July 2015
    Pulpstar said:

    Sunil Is there a regular "Holy day" in Hinduism - or is that a trait unique to the three abrahamic religions.

    Holy? No.
    But "Holi" is the festival where you throw coloured powder at each other! It's even catching on over here:

    http://holifestival.com/uk/en/index
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,038

    DavidL said:

    It's not going to happen (nor should it) but if George Osborne were to announce tomorrow the complete abolition of tax credits (with nothing replacing them) and the complete abolition of minimum wage laws (with no replacement) then today's minimum wage jobs are more likely to go down than up over time.

    Some of them yes but others would continue to be ruthlessly exploited by a market that is very much weighted in the employer's favour.

    What I hope will happen tomorrow is that there will be a significant increase in the minimum wage with offsetting reductions in WTC and CTC so that more of the cost of labour falls on the person obtaining the benefit of it. WTC and CTC should also taper out at a lower level, possibly the current cap for benefits.

    Tomorrow may well be the most important political event of this Parliament. It will set the agenda for a rebalancing of our economy onto a sustainable path and set the political context for political debate thereafter.

    Of course, given the current mess in the EZ and the age of this recovery it is all too possible that the country will be blown off the path that Osborne will set. But tomorrow will fix the agenda and the future battlefields. I presume Hattie will be doing the reply.
    I hope not. It will be a shame to see a big increase in unemployment and bankruptcies that a substantial increase in minimum wage could cause. The minimum wage is already far higher in real terms than it was when it was first introduced, where do you think companies struggling to make ends meet will magic up money to pay ever increasing wage bills? Do companies have magic money trees like Labour governments?
    Well they either make a sufficient turn to justify that labour or they don't. If they don't the taxpayer cannot be expected to make up the shortfall for them indefinitely. It may well encourage them to try to increase the productivity of their workforce which would clearly be a good thing. This might reduce employment at the margins but the jobs market is exceptionally buoyant at the moment so this is unlikely to cause unemployment.

    In economic terms encouraging unproductive employers who are inefficient in their use of labour by state subsidy is an inappropriate use of resources and makes it more difficult for better employers to find and train the labour they need.

    This is going to be a matter of judgment over time and I fully accept that we would need to keep the NMW under review by reference to the jobs market. At the moment it looks like a correct and relatively painless way of making necessary cuts to welfare spending.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,045
    edited July 2015
    AndyJS said:

    Has trading in Greek 10 year bonds been suspended? The figure has been stuck at 18.089 all day:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/GGGB10YR:IND

    I doubt there's many buyers of Greek bonds at any price today!
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    No mere chancellor.

    Otto von Bismarck became ‘Reichskanzler’ which means literally ‘Imperial Chancellor’ of the newly unified Germany. Merkel is the ‘Bundeskanzlerin’ to denote the non-imperialist, federal nature of Germany. The ‘in’ at the end is merely the gender feminisation of the noun.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:


    59% of people declared themselves Christian in the 2011 census, plus the 8% affiliated to other religions

    I put myself down as a Muslim on the census.

    Trust me, I'm not very religious.
    In the 2001 Census I put myself down as a Jedi as I think that religion and the State asking about it is a joke. The numbers who ticked Other and wrote Jedi exceeded those who ticked Judaism.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:

    Since this country isn't a Christian country. Its at most an agnostic country. Cries of "but won't someone think of Sunday Service" are pathetic and laughable when less than 800k attend it. Move on and worship your own sky fairy however you please, you don't need the law to be shaped around your sky fairy.

    59% of people declared themselves Christian in the 2011 census, plus the 8% affiliated to other religions
    So what? Many people tick a box just because their parents were religious, but that doesn't mean they care about working on Sunday just because the Bible forbids working on Saturdays does it. Especially since we know that less than 0.8 million attend CoE Sunday Services The Bible says a lot of stuff but that doesn't mean it should be the law.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1-ip47WYWc
    There is a difference between an ISIS style theocracry, basing all your laws on the Koran/Bible and a society which has mainly secular laws but still respects the rights of religious people to practice what they believe. That includes exempting churches from carrying out gay marriage laws, ensuring Jewish people have Kosher food at public dinners, allowing the religious not to work on their Sabbath Day, allowing religious medical practitioners not to have to perform abortions etc
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    No mere chancellor.

    Otto von Bismarck became ‘Reichskanzler’ which means literally ‘Imperial Chancellor’ of the newly unified Germany. Merkel is the ‘Bundeskanzlerin’ to denote the non-imperialist, federal nature of Germany. The ‘in’ at the end is merely the gender feminisation of the noun.

    Yebbut why not "Prime Minister" when translated into English. Germany has a "President" just like other (non-Presidential) republics.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,984

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the budget at the same time as the first day of the first Ashes test?

    I'll remember this during the next Tory leadership election.

    Why the eff has George Osborne scheduled the emergency budget at the same time as Greece brings its bailout proposals forward
    Because he's a truly great master strategist.
    That goes without saying

    Osborne for leader, can I count you in?
    My vote will be going to Jeremy Hunt or Sajid Javid, Nothing to do with me having backed them at long odds.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    JeremyCorbyn4Leader ‏@Corbyn4Leader 7m7 minutes ago
    We've smashed through our campaign fund target of £25,000. Thanks so much everyone who has donated. #jeremy4leader

    Thinking of donating my Tunisian refund but not sure N4E and the Watcher who have donated to my pension so graciously will approve!!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JananGanesh: So, Greek government does not bother making a proposal. Just plain bantering the eurogroup now.

    @Reuters: BREAKING: Greece says it will submit new aid proposal 'maybe' Wednesday - Senior Eurozone official. More: http://t.co/qTlwcFKXXg
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    HYUFD said:


    59% of people declared themselves Christian in the 2011 census, plus the 8% affiliated to other religions

    I put myself down as a Muslim on the census.

    Trust me, I'm not very religious.
    In the 2001 Census I put myself down as a Jedi as I think that religion and the State asking about it is a joke. The numbers who ticked Other and wrote Jedi exceeded those who ticked Judaism.
    In 2001 I seriously thought about putting "Jedi", but was worried the authorities might not like it! So I chickened out and put "no religion".

    In 2011, unfortunately, I was in the USA at the time of the UK Census, so didn't put myself down as anything :)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @afneil: Eurozone officials say Greeks arrived with no proposals. Greeks say offered Juncker proposals with tweaks. No matter. Nothing gonna happen.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    Well they either make a sufficient turn to justify that labour or they don't. If they don't the taxpayer cannot be expected to make up the shortfall for them indefinitely. It may well encourage them to try to increase the productivity of their workforce which would clearly be a good thing. This might reduce employment at the margins but the jobs market is exceptionally buoyant at the moment so this is unlikely to cause unemployment.

    In economic terms encouraging unproductive employers who are inefficient in their use of labour by state subsidy is an inappropriate use of resources and makes it more difficult for better employers to find and train the labour they need.

    This is going to be a matter of judgment over time and I fully accept that we would need to keep the NMW under review by reference to the jobs market. At the moment it looks like a correct and relatively painless way of making necessary cuts to welfare spending.

    I'm quite OK with the taxpayer taking a big step back, but I'd hope to see corresponding tax cuts of the government taking less off the companies and people too then. As someone who helps run a small business we give more money to the government than any other supplier or employees. There is no state subsidy here, we pay our own wages to our employees and don't get a single penny back off the State to pay for the wages. If the government pays Child Tax Credits as a form of welfare then that has nothing to do with us and is not a subsidy to us or any large The idea there is a subsidy is just factually incorrect - I'd like you to show a single payment to employers from the State rather than the other way around.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    :+1:
    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417
    Scott_P said:

    'maybe' Wednesday

    How the f*ck can it be "MAYBE" Wednesday.

    Maybe ?!

    I doubt the Greeks have even printed up a few billion Drachma to switch to when they are chucked out the Eurozone.

    Amateur hour.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    JeremyCorbyn4Leader ‏@Corbyn4Leader 7m7 minutes ago
    We've smashed through our campaign fund target of £25,000. Thanks so much everyone who has donated. #jeremy4leader

    Thinking of donating my Tunisian refund but not sure N4E and the Watcher who have donated to my pension so graciously will approve!!

    Can anyone donate, or is restricted to longstanding Labour members?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,308

    No mere chancellor.

    Otto von Bismarck became ‘Reichskanzler’ which means literally ‘Imperial Chancellor’ of the newly unified Germany. Merkel is the ‘Bundeskanzlerin’ to denote the non-imperialist, federal nature of Germany. The ‘in’ at the end is merely the gender feminisation of the noun.

    Yebbut why not "Prime Minister" when translated into English. Germany has a "President" just like other (non-Presidential) republics.
    Perhaps your question should be why we give our Finance Minister such a grand title as Chancellor.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,223
    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    I worked on the 2011 Census and I can assure you that there are enough things to try and fit on to the questionnaire without having a "I'm a fair weather Christian" option!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    I think they did that for Northern Ireland. "Religion or Religion brought up in"
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,417



    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    I think they did that for Northern Ireland. "Religion or Religion brought up in"
    Do you believe there isn't a protestant God or a catholic God xD
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Unless they're clumsily stalling whilst trying to snuggle up with Putinesque types/printing millions of 20 Euro notes!
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    'maybe' Wednesday

    How the f*ck can it be "MAYBE" Wednesday.

    Maybe ?!

    I doubt the Greeks have even printed up a few billion Drachma to switch to when they are chucked out the Eurozone.

    Amateur hour.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    No mere chancellor.

    Otto von Bismarck became ‘Reichskanzler’ which means literally ‘Imperial Chancellor’ of the newly unified Germany. Merkel is the ‘Bundeskanzlerin’ to denote the non-imperialist, federal nature of Germany. The ‘in’ at the end is merely the gender feminisation of the noun.

    Yebbut why not "Prime Minister" when translated into English. Germany has a "President" just like other (non-Presidential) republics.
    Perhaps your question should be why we give our Finance Minister such a grand title as Chancellor.
    Touche :)
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    Plato said:

    Well quite.

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    Well actually not quite.. There will be Christians and those of other religious denominations who don't want to work on Sunday being forced to do so by their employer,.

    I forsee court cases on this coming down the line.

    In any event.... I think I saw a dead cat on the table.
    Whenever I've had to manage people, I've generally tried to do so in a humane, considerate way, rather than swirling my cape, twirling my mustache and crushing my minions beneath my booted heel.

    I confidently predict It's not going to be an issue for the overwhelming majority of employees.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,308
    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    "Which God is it that you don't believe in?"
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    Plato said:

    Well quite.

    HYUFD said:

    You are confusing a Tory measure with a laissez-faire measure, the 2 are not the same, many Tories are still churchgoing traditionalist Christians. Even Jesus made an exception for healing on the Day of Rest

    While many are not. I for one am a Tory atheist and that is far from unusual in this century - or the last. Many who are also see a separation between Church and State laws - as has been quite common since the eighteenth at least.

    Christians can do what they please on Sundays I don't care, but if I want to go to Tesco's or to B&Q I don't see why the law says that isn't an option.
    Well actually not quite.. There will be Christians and those of other religious denominations who don't want to work on Sunday being forced to do so by their employer,.

    I forsee court cases on this coming down the line.

    In any event.... I think I saw a dead cat on the table.
    Indeed, that may well be a possibility
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    Pulpstar said:



    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    I think they did that for Northern Ireland. "Religion or Religion brought up in"
    Do you believe there isn't a protestant God or a catholic God xD
    In 2001, it was termed "Community Background":
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map12.htm
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    ED Miliband on his feet in the HoC arguing against EVEL

    Still in Salmond's pocket...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    Scott_P said:

    ED Miliband on his feet in the HoC arguing against EVEL

    Still in Salmond's pocket...

    He's actually able to stand???
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    "Which God is it that you don't believe in?"
    That's not as daft as it might sound. I'm an atheist, but I'd be a stupid atheist not to admit that I have grown up with, and been influenced by, the Judeo-Christian tradition. I'm very fond of the CoE, love church architecture, singing hymns and carols on the odd occasion and so forth.

    I feel quite protective of the church - religion comforts many people, and I think it's extremely rude to dismiss people's sincerely held faith as deluded belief in a 'sky fairy'. Militant secularists/atheists give us a bad name. No one likes a boor.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    No mere chancellor.

    Otto von Bismarck became ‘Reichskanzler’ which means literally ‘Imperial Chancellor’ of the newly unified Germany. Merkel is the ‘Bundeskanzlerin’ to denote the non-imperialist, federal nature of Germany. The ‘in’ at the end is merely the gender feminisation of the noun.

    Yebbut why not "Prime Minister" when translated into English. Germany has a "President" just like other (non-Presidential) republics.
    I believe in Germany, the role of 'prime minister' was already taken and refers to the minister in charge of a er, ministry. Chancellor is the de facto 'leader' - it may confuse you, but why should they adopt an anglo centric political terminology?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991

    HYUFD said:


    If we get to 24/7 shopping there is greater risk of religious workers being unable to adjust their shift patterns to respect their Sabbath Day then anyone missing getting a pint of milk of an evening!

    I think it's the other way around. If you're not working on your Sabbath Day then you need to be working at some other time, and if you close off a bunch of other times then you have less leeway to come up with a shift that leaves the day you want clear.

    If everybody had the same day then I suppose you could shut everything down on that day, but there are a bunch of different religious and for whatever reason they don't seem to be able to agree which day it should be.
    Provided enough Jewish, Muslim, non-religious workers are able to work on Sunday evenings and Christians and non-religious workers are available to work on Saturdays
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157

    No mere chancellor.

    Otto von Bismarck became ‘Reichskanzler’ which means literally ‘Imperial Chancellor’ of the newly unified Germany. Merkel is the ‘Bundeskanzlerin’ to denote the non-imperialist, federal nature of Germany. The ‘in’ at the end is merely the gender feminisation of the noun.

    Yebbut why not "Prime Minister" when translated into English. Germany has a "President" just like other (non-Presidential) republics.
    I believe in Germany, the role of 'prime minister' was already taken and refers to the minister in charge of a er, ministry. Chancellor is the de facto 'leader' - it may confuse you, but why should they adopt an anglo centric political terminology?
    I said when the term is translated into English.

    But no worries, just remembered there was a "Chancellor" in Star Wars...
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited July 2015
    John_M said:

    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    "Which God is it that you don't believe in?"
    That's not as daft as it might sound. I'm an atheist, but I'd be a stupid atheist not to admit that I have grown up with, and been influenced by, the Judeo-Christian tradition. I'm very fond of the CoE, love church architecture, singing hymns and carols on the odd occasion and so forth.

    I feel quite protective of the church - religion comforts many people, and I think it's extremely rude to dismiss people's sincerely held faith as deluded belief in a 'sky fairy'. Militant secularists/atheists give us a bad name. No one likes a boor.
    But they're soooo clever.... They've got it all sussed. Surely that gives them the right, using logic and reason, to childishly chastise and denigrate the feelings of anyone who mildly disagrees with them?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,157
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:


    If we get to 24/7 shopping there is greater risk of religious workers being unable to adjust their shift patterns to respect their Sabbath Day then anyone missing getting a pint of milk of an evening!

    I think it's the other way around. If you're not working on your Sabbath Day then you need to be working at some other time, and if you close off a bunch of other times then you have less leeway to come up with a shift that leaves the day you want clear.

    If everybody had the same day then I suppose you could shut everything down on that day, but there are a bunch of different religious and for whatever reason they don't seem to be able to agree which day it should be.
    Provided enough Jewish, Muslim, non-religious workers are able to work on Sunday evenings and Christians and non-religious workers are available to work on Saturdays
    There would probably be more non-religious people than Church-goers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,991
    John_M said:

    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    "Which God is it that you don't believe in?"
    That's not as daft as it might sound. I'm an atheist, but I'd be a stupid atheist not to admit that I have grown up with, and been influenced by, the Judeo-Christian tradition. I'm very fond of the CoE, love church architecture, singing hymns and carols on the odd occasion and so forth.

    I feel quite protective of the church - religion comforts many people, and I think it's extremely rude to dismiss people's sincerely held faith as deluded belief in a 'sky fairy'. Militant secularists/atheists give us a bad name. No one likes a boor.
    No names mentioned Professor Richard Dawkins!
  • FlightpathlFlightpathl Posts: 1,243
    Indigo said:

    The last 'tory led government' increased the retirement ages. It also cut spending. It also put up VAT. The current tory govt is cutting benefits spending and searching out tax avoidance.
    But hey lets let Greece and the Greeks get away with it.
    I imagine official bribery as you suggest is widespread in places like africa and in the far east - probably Russia. But it should not be endemic in Europe, irrespective of the EU the Euro or whatever.

    Once again I suggest that its because this govt are doing the right things to reform our broken economy and social security system that we should give it our support.

    This is nothing to do with our government so I don't know why you felt the need to put in a quick commercial for them in your reply.

    Corruption and bribery are pretty rampant in Greece, Fakelaki ("little envelopes") are commonly passed to public officials to "expedite" services or change official amounts. The same is true in Italy, where is is perfectly normal to agree the amount of tax you pay over a couple of bottles of wine, also the amount that will be passed under the table to facilitate this consideration. In my experience a cut from all these payments are paid to their boss, and he passes on a cut of his aggregate payments to his boss and so forth. This means there is no interest from the middle ranking civil servant in promoting reform,because it cuts into their own profits, and they obstruct reform as often as they can. Recent studies in Greece suggest that almost a billion euros a year are paid by the public in these sort of payments, and rather more than a billion by corporations and businesses.
    You make my point very well. As for our govt. Of course the issue and the principle behind it has to do with us. We are being urged by the left to be a bit like Greece and howl blue murder over 'austerity'. One of the first words Corbyn uttered in his recent QT appearance was 'austerity' and I think they were talking about cross mediterranean immigration from Africa! It was grotesque self serving sloganising.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2015
    tlg86 said:

    AndyJS said:

    IMO there should be an option in the census for people who are atheists but have a cultural affinity with a particular religion.

    I worked on the 2011 Census and I can assure you that there are enough things to try and fit on to the questionnaire without having a "I'm a fair weather Christian" option!
    Yes but I think the majority of British people are in precisely that category: not religious but still feeling culturally connected to a particular tradition. The problem with the no religion category is that militant atheists love to cite the figure as part of their campaign to get rid of religious traditions altogether which I don't think is what most people want.
This discussion has been closed.