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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,014



    However, that wasn't really my point - my point was that what people are saying about John Major now bears absolutely no connection whatsoever to what people said about him when he was actually PM.

    That's right, at least for Tories (I've never met a Labour supporter who recall Major's government fondly), but which is right, the impression at the time or the nostalgic memory? I've only met him a couple of times, but he struck me as a nice man, not terribly preoccupied with politics and really more interested in cricket. In a backbencher that's arguably a healthy balance, in a PM maybe less so.
    lolandol said:



    Team2015 are going to Broxtowe from St Pancras on Saturday...

    Thanks for the helpful info. Enjoy your visit!

    PtP is up tomorrow and tyson next week. The idea of a PB pub meet in the Victoria pub on Tuesday May 5 from 8pm has been put up here, but I'm not sure if anyone else is coming - Tissue Price and Fox said they might, I think? I might be tied up till 830 or so, but voters don't like being pestered after that.

    I note a certain heat creeping into discussions about Broxtowe on the forum, and I don't want to fan it, so I'll call a unilateral ceasefire and just give the occasional anecdote without further comment on local outlook. One from the weekend:

    Inexperienced young canvasser: "You've swung from not sure to Labour? That's fantastic! How is your husband swinging?"
    Voter: "A bit naughty of you to ask, but I've found he's heterosexual, actually."



    I'll be there Nick, we can natter about diplomacy if nothing else ;)
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    Pulpstar said:

    SNP and Conservatives now really chucking seven tonnes of shit at each other , all landing on Labour.

    That is a very fine image, Sir!
    Refrains from making a Mark Oaten gag.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,151
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    scotslass said:

    David L

    Not the experience in Inverurie where just about every remaining Labour voter in a survey cites Salmond as their second preference.

    In my experience it depended on whether they voted Yes or No. I would agree that Labour voters who voted Yes are turning SNP. But the No voters are worried and the more hype there is about the SNP's undoubted success the more worried they get.
    David , difference is no matter how worried they are they will not be voting Tory or Lib Dem, they will go SNP , Green , SSP.
    Not in North Perthshire.

    Unless they are atypical they will vote for whichever Unionist party is thought to have the best chance and that will be none of those you have mentioned. I have been told of Labour activists helping Crockett as well and heard rumours about Gordon too.

    I am hesitant to generalise too much but there is little doubt there will be more tactical voting in this election than Scotland has ever seen. How much difference it might make is a lot more problematic.
    David, we shall see , sounds very like the kind of tales Roger comes out with, I am not convinced. Personally I think we will see minimal tactical voting down to just a few fanatics.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,434

    DavidL said:



    As a Conservative Unionist I share your concerns. SLAB are deeply unattractive as an organisation and have been a blight on Scottish public life for far too long.

    But for me ultimately the Unionist part is more important. Governments come and go. PM Miliband will be a disaster and cause moderate damage to the UK in the way that Labour governments usually do but he is unlikely to be around long enough to do anything like as much damage as the last Labour government did, especially if he is dependent on people as fundamentally dishonest and delusional as the SNP. But the Union is forever.

    It is a horrible choice but in Edinburgh South I would vote Labour. In Dundee West I need some evidence that it would not be a pointless gesture to do so and I have not seen it yet. I am canvassing and working in Perth and North Perthshire to offset any guilt I might feel if I eventually decide to vote tactically.

    P(your vote for Labour swings the seat) is infintesimal.

    P(your vote is used by labour to claim a mandate for something you disapprove of) = 1

    I know. That is why I need some evidence it is even close. Last I saw it was SNP by 10,000. Which brings a whole new meaning to infinitesimal.

    Edinburgh South will be a lot closer.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,154

    Pulpstar said:

    SNP and Conservatives now really chucking seven tonnes of shit at each other , all landing on Labour.

    Can Labour regain the momentum'?
    With Ed buried under 14 tonnes of shit?

    Hard to see how they climb out of this particular slurry pit.
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    HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    unionist democracy at a glance.

    You run scottish education. Fine. Good luck with it.

    Labour SNP means you will run English education too. And we can't vote you out.

    You are talking mince. The supposed "England only" vote sets the Scottish budgets and so is not an England only vote. Going by the ignorance shown on here it sounds like it would be better run from Scotland.
    The big problem is the budget.

    This inevitably affects Scotland and so can never fall under EVEL.

    Fox hunting, drink driving, and some others can be strictly divided.

    If EVEL comes in, FFA is needed as a quid pro quo.
    Yes it is the elephant in the room, it can never be real EVEL otherwise. As you say there are some things that can be done but not the major items. If they want to save the union they need to get FFR sorted out.
    FFR? Sorry, Mr. G., is that a typo or some new set of initials with which I am not familiar.

    Full Fiscal Autonomy runs into two brick walls as far as I can see. Firstly, transfers from other areas of the UK and secondly the issuance of debt. It really will not work.

    The only sensible answer is for Scotland to go independent, with its own currency, but your compatriots don't seem to want that.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,703
    Dair said:


    In hindsight, I probably should have said UK-wide unionist parties to outpoll the SNP (I don't necessarily consider votes for the Greens or the SSP to be nationalist votes in a Westminster election) However, I note your lack of confidence that the SNP will outpoll LabConLibDemUKIP combined. I find that interesting.

    I can get better value than evens on the SNP polling 50%. I've taken better value elsewhere at the SNP polling 50%.
    Fair enough. Good luck with the bet.
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    For those asking, I think we're only going to get one poll today.

    YouGov tonight?
    Given that You Gov is like a pawn on a chess board that can only move 1 step at a time, I will predict on of the following outcomes

    35/35
    34/34
    36/34 LAB
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    unionist democracy at a glance.

    You run scottish education. Fine. Good luck with it.

    Labour SNP means you will run English education too. And we can't vote you out.

    You are talking mince. The supposed "England only" vote sets the Scottish budgets and so is not an England only vote. Going by the ignorance shown on here it sounds like it would be better run from Scotland.
    So it's not about fairness. Scotland are better than the rest of us and we should just accept it. Personally I've always supported independence so we could see that Scotland are not being held back.
    Yes it is all about fairness. You seem confused. Due to English matters changing the Scottish budget you cannot treat them in isolation and be fair. EVEL as it currently stands would be very unfair.
    Except the Barnett formula means does it not that whatever spending on eg English education is, the Scots get a higher proportion to spend in Scotland. Given that you've argued in the past that the debt isn't Scottish then so long as Parliament isn't running a surplus how can you complain with that?

    Unless you think that Westminster should run a deficit and the Scots unequivocally own a stake of that.
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    currystar said:

    A comment on BBC news election ticker

    "I live in Wales and Labour have been in power for 15 years. We now have the worst performing NHS and worst performing education system in the whole of the UK. If Labour cannot provide first class services for 3 million people after 15 years, then there is no way they will do this for 50m+ English people"

    I am surprised that Wales is being ignored so much in this election as Labours record there is one of abject failure. ( Like all their administrations)

    But their hearts are in the right place unlike those evil Tory bar stewards.

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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    DavidL said:

    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    geoffw said:

    fpt,
    yup.
    Tactical voting, Edinburgh South.

    Ashcroft shows the SNP coming to the lead from nowhere to lead the SLAB incumbent Ian Murray by a short head. The LDs who came second last time have dropped right back. The Conservatives remain third with roughly the same percentage as 2010.

    I'm a Conservative unionist, so should I hold my nose and vote "tactically"? I have concluded not, because from my perspective there's really not much difference between SNP and SLAB: if Labour does get into office they will dance to the SNP tune anyway. So to give heart to the Cons in the next election I shall eschew tactics and vote according to my true preferences.

    However if Murray wins the seat I'll be pleased that he has saved Roger's bacon.

    As a Conservative Unionist I share your concerns. SLAB are deeply unattractive as an organisation and have been a blight on Scottish public life for far too long.

    But for me ultimately the Unionist part is more important. Governments come and go. PM Miliband will be a disaster and cause moderate damage to the UK in the way that Labour governments usually do but he is unlikely to be around long enough to do anything like as much damage as the last Labour government did, especially if he is dependent on people as fundamentally dishonest and delusional as the SNP. But the Union is forever.

    It is a horrible choice but in Edinburgh South I would vote Labour. In Dundee West I need some evidence that it would not be a pointless gesture to do so and I have not seen it yet. I am canvassing and working in Perth and North Perthshire to offset any guilt I might feel if I eventually decide to vote tactically.

    Says a lot about Scottish Tories David, is it any wonder people hate them even more than the Labour donkeys. Two sets of no hope losers grasping to hold onto anything they can even at the expense of the country. Shameful.
    I bow to no-one in my disagreements with MalcomG but he does have a point when idiots in the SCons will try to elect SLab MPs in a vain hope of saving the Union. How many SLab voters will be switching to the Tories as quid pro quo? Absolutely none. And the result - a stronger SNP who will join with Miliband in a dangerously leftward lurch. You are putting the interests of Scotland ahead of the UK as a whole and ought to be ashamed of yourself.
    You are wrong. I have met several Labour supporters who are voting Tory in North Perthshire for example.
    Acc. to electoral calculus the SNP have a 100% chance here and the Tories 0%. If you're a Tory vote Tory. It's pretty simple really.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,758
    DUP manifesto seems to be a cross between Labour and UKIP. I guess that's what we should expect from a party rooted in the socially conservative working class.

    The Conservatives are not the natural bedfellows of the DUP.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pulpstar said:



    However, that wasn't really my point - my point was that what people are saying about John Major now bears absolutely no connection whatsoever to what people said about him when he was actually PM.

    That's right, at least for Tories (I've never met a Labour supporter who recall Major's government fondly), but which is right, the impression at the time or the nostalgic memory? I've only met him a couple of times, but he struck me as a nice man, not terribly preoccupied with politics and really more interested in cricket. In a backbencher that's arguably a healthy balance, in a PM maybe less so.
    lolandol said:



    Team2015 are going to Broxtowe from St Pancras on Saturday...

    Thanks for the helpful info. Enjoy your visit!

    PtP is up tomorrow and tyson next week. The idea of a PB pub meet in the Victoria pub on Tuesday May 5 from 8pm has been put up here, but I'm not sure if anyone else is coming - Tissue Price and Fox said they might, I think? I might be tied up till 830 or so, but voters don't like being pestered after that.

    I note a certain heat creeping into discussions about Broxtowe on the forum, and I don't want to fan it, so I'll call a unilateral ceasefire and just give the occasional anecdote without further comment on local outlook. One from the weekend:

    Inexperienced young canvasser: "You've swung from not sure to Labour? That's fantastic! How is your husband swinging?"
    Voter: "A bit naughty of you to ask, but I've found he's heterosexual, actually."



    I'll be there Nick, we can natter about diplomacy if nothing else ;)
    I have an evening clinic but should be there for 2130ish.
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    New Thread
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,703
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    So much more natural and believable than Dave.

    Major has said it cannot be right the SNP is seeking to influence policy in a country where it is not fielding candidates.

    He is absolutely 100% correct.

    Garbage , he is just as thick as he has ever been, the turnip does not realise it is a UK election not an England election. He is obviously not all there.
    For UK laws.

    For English laws it can not be right that foreign MPs not standing in England are setting devolved laws for England. You can not defend the indefensible.

    EDIT: The funny thing is that the SNP used to be honourable and abstain on English-only laws, it was only Labour who did the indefensible.
    Labour do it all the time, and Tories single MP does it so what is different. I do not see anything there talking about English law , which is separate from Scottish law. He states clearly , influencing policy in a country. The only country that is having a GE is the UK , which last time I looked Scotland is a part of.
    So you are happy that English MPs get to vote on all matters affecting Scotland but not vice versa , unionist democracy at a glance.

    PS: Common knowledge on here that England does not have devolution , it is whinged about daily.
    Keep being stubborn it doesn't make you any less wrong.

    No I am not happy that English MPs get to vote on devolved issues for Scotland. But then again English MPs DON'T vote on devolved issues for Scotland.

    I know England doesn't have devolution, but Scotland does and we're talking about Scottish MPs. Scottish MPs should not vote (regardless of party) on any issue that have been devolved away from them.
    I am not being stubborn , where it does not impact Scotland in any way , then I agree. However most times it affects the Scottish pocket money and then it is wrong. Easy solution is a federal UK, but Westminster want their cake and want to eat it at the same time.
    I'd be up for a federal UK.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,151

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    unionist democracy at a glance.

    You run scottish education. Fine. Good luck with it.

    Labour SNP means you will run English education too. And we can't vote you out.

    You are talking mince. The supposed "England only" vote sets the Scottish budgets and so is not an England only vote. Going by the ignorance shown on here it sounds like it would be better run from Scotland.
    The big problem is the budget.

    This inevitably affects Scotland and so can never fall under EVEL.

    Fox hunting, drink driving, and some others can be strictly divided.

    If EVEL comes in, FFA is needed as a quid pro quo.
    Yes it is the elephant in the room, it can never be real EVEL otherwise. As you say there are some things that can be done but not the major items. If they want to save the union they need to get FFR sorted out.
    FFR? Sorry, Mr. G., is that a typo or some new set of initials with which I am not familiar.

    Full Fiscal Autonomy runs into two brick walls as far as I can see. Firstly, transfers from other areas of the UK and secondly the issuance of debt. It really will not work.

    The only sensible answer is for Scotland to go independent, with its own currency, but your compatriots don't seem to want that.
    Hurst, you are indeed behind the times , FFA is old hat , we now have FFR which I believe is Full Fiscal Responsibility, so we are together in harmony but fiscally responsible, Scotland leading the way into the light.
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    CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 40,019
    DavidL said:

    malcolmg said:

    DavidL said:

    scotslass said:

    David L

    Not the experience in Inverurie where just about every remaining Labour voter in a survey cites Salmond as their second preference.

    In my experience it depended on whether they voted Yes or No. I would agree that Labour voters who voted Yes are turning SNP. But the No voters are worried and the more hype there is about the SNP's undoubted success the more worried they get.
    David , difference is no matter how worried they are they will not be voting Tory or Lib Dem, they will go SNP , Green , SSP.
    Not in North Perthshire.

    Unless they are atypical they will vote for whichever Unionist party is thought to have the best chance and that will be none of those you have mentioned. I have been told of Labour activists helping Crockett as well and heard rumours about Gordon too.

    I am hesitant to generalise too much but there is little doubt there will be more tactical voting in this election than Scotland has ever seen. How much difference it might make is a lot more problematic.
    I genuinely find that hard to believe give the previous extent of tactical voting in Scotland to get the Tories out and keep them out (whatever you and I may personally think). But a little thought suggests that you may be right, though a lot of tactical voting will be FOR the SNP and against SLAB/SCUP (think the greens and SSP for a start, as well as SLD now the latter are going to be a wasted vote in more areas).

    But your last comment is in excellent company

    http://www.thenational.scot/politics/anyone-but-the-snp-tactical-vote-will-not-work-say-academics.2226

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    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    currystar said:

    A comment on BBC news election ticker

    "I live in Wales and Labour have been in power for 15 years. We now have the worst performing NHS and worst performing education system in the whole of the UK. If Labour cannot provide first class services for 3 million people after 15 years, then there is no way they will do this for 50m+ English people"

    I am surprised that Wales is being ignored so much in this election as Labours record there is one of abject failure. ( Like all their administrations)

    But their hearts are in the right place unlike those evil Tory bar stewards.

    Having a great heart doesn't put food on the table as they say.
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    So much more natural and believable than Dave.

    Major has said it cannot be right the SNP is seeking to influence policy in a country where it is not fielding candidates.

    He is absolutely 100% correct.

    Garbage , he is just as thick as he has ever been, the turnip does not realise it is a UK election not an England election. He is obviously not all there.
    For UK laws.

    For English laws it can not be right that foreign MPs not standing in England are setting devolved laws for England. You can not defend the indefensible.

    EDIT: The funny thing is that the SNP used to be honourable and abstain on English-only laws, it was only Labour who did the indefensible.
    When those "English only" votes cut the Scottish budget I think you perhaps doth protest too much. The rest have always done it so it is two faced to say SNP cannot do it and just accept the accompanying budget cuts. Humbug.
    Malcom - do you agree that if the s Scottish element was stripped out and there was an E + W section that SNP should abstain, or are you of the opinion that the work of a government is all integrated and as such any vote is a Scottish issue?
  • Options
    weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820

    For those asking, I think we're only going to get one poll today.

    YouGov tonight?
    Given that You Gov is like a pawn on a chess board that can only move 1 step at a time, I will predict on of the following outcomes

    35/35
    34/34
    36/34 LAB
    I think that the standard deviation for both Labour, UKIP and the Conservatives is less than 1% since the start of the month!
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,488

    Has writers block, I can't think of any subtle pop music references to segue into this post

    https://twitter.com/ConHistGrp/status/590480941375758336

    Material Girl, of course :)
    True Blue.....
    No, that's me - "Sunil" :)
    Not until you come back to the fold can you be considered a True Blue....
    I voted Tory in the Redbridge locals last year!
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    taffys said:

    So much more natural and believable than Dave.

    Major has said it cannot be right the SNP is seeking to influence policy in a country where it is not fielding candidates.

    He is absolutely 100% correct.

    How does he square that with our interventionist foreign policy?

  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Pulpstar said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    unionist democracy at a glance.

    You run scottish education. Fine. Good luck with it.

    Labour SNP means you will run English education too. And we can't vote you out.

    You are talking mince. The supposed "England only" vote sets the Scottish budgets and so is not an England only vote. Going by the ignorance shown on here it sounds like it would be better run from Scotland.
    The big problem is the budget.

    This inevitably affects Scotland and so can never fall under EVEL.

    Fox hunting, drink driving, and some others can be strictly divided.

    If EVEL comes in, FFA is needed as a quid pro quo.
    Yes it is the elephant in the room, it can never be real EVEL otherwise. As you say there are some things that can be done but not the major items. If they want to save the union they need to get FFR sorted out.
    FFR? Sorry, Mr. G., is that a typo or some new set of initials with which I am not familiar.

    Full Fiscal Autonomy runs into two brick walls as far as I can see. Firstly, transfers from other areas of the UK and secondly the issuance of debt. It really will not work.

    The only sensible answer is for Scotland to go independent, with its own currency, but your compatriots don't seem to want that.
    Hurst, you are indeed behind the times , FFA is old hat , we now have FFR which I believe is Full Fiscal Responsibility, so we are together in harmony but fiscally responsible, Scotland leading the way into the light.
    I don't support either to be honest. I think it should be independence, and no bailout if things go wrong, or business as usual. Scottish Labour would bribe Scotland with a bailout to gerrymander support, so the SNP can do whatever they want risk free. It didn't work with the banks and will encourage excessive risk taking.

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,142
    Sandpit said:

    AndyJS said:

    O/T:

    The Japanese are pressing ahead with new MagLev systems while we procrastinate despite the technology having been developed in the UK:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/21/japans-maglev-train-notches-up-new-world-speed-record-in-test-run

    It's sad that we can't do major infrastructure any more. HS2 and HS3 should have been Maglevs.

    Reminds me of the fact that Dubai built their airport terminal 3 in less time than Heathrow T5's planning inquiry! DXB are now building the new replacement airport further out of town as we talk about the third runway, when we need runways 3 and 4 under construction yesterday.
    LOL - see my comment about Maglevs from earlier in the thread. There's good reasons why there's only one high-speed line in use despite many decades of development.

    I'm surprised no-one's campaigning for the tracked hovercraft anymore. Unlike Maglev, it combined *two* British inventions!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracked_Hovercraft
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAC-2qUFois

    As for the T5 planning inquiry: I've mooted before a policy that if there is a national-critical infrastructure project of local scope, then we should take a very different approach and hold a national referenda, the result of which overrides local and special interest objections. Controversial, but better for the country IMHO.
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    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Has writers block, I can't think of any subtle pop music references to segue into this post

    https://twitter.com/ConHistGrp/status/590480941375758336

    Material Girl, of course :)
    True Blue.....
    No, that's me - "Sunil" :)
    Not until you come back to the fold can you be considered a True Blue....
    I voted Tory in the Redbridge locals last year!
    That's not something to be proud of! ;)
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,801

    taffys said:

    So much more natural and believable than Dave.

    Major has said it cannot be right the SNP is seeking to influence policy in a country where it is not fielding candidates.

    He is absolutely 100% correct.

    How does he square that with our interventionist foreign policy?

    It certainly puts all that whinging about Westminster interfering in Scotland into its proper place in the history of SNP cynicism...
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,151

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    unionist democracy at a glance.

    You run scottish education. Fine. Good luck with it.

    Labour SNP means you will run English education too. And we can't vote you out.

    You are talking mince. The supposed "England only" vote sets the Scottish budgets and so is not an England only vote. Going by the ignorance shown on here it sounds like it would be better run from Scotland.
    So it's not about fairness. Scotland are better than the rest of us and we should just accept it. Personally I've always supported independence so we could see that Scotland are not being held back.
    Yes it is all about fairness. You seem confused. Due to English matters changing the Scottish budget you cannot treat them in isolation and be fair. EVEL as it currently stands would be very unfair.
    Except the Barnett formula means does it not that whatever spending on eg English education is, the Scots get a higher proportion to spend in Scotland. Given that you've argued in the past that the debt isn't Scottish then so long as Parliament isn't running a surplus how can you complain with that?

    Unless you think that Westminster should run a deficit and the Scots unequivocally own a stake of that.
    Philip, I believe rightly or wrongly that the numbers are fiddled. The existing debt needs a solution obviously but I do believe that Scotland should set their own budgets and taxes etc for better or for worse. We have the worst of both worlds at present , London have policy to suit England which is always going to be the case given it is 85% of population. Scotland gets fixed pocket money which may or may not be generous but it means they cannot influence anything or have policies to suit a small country, so we have to soldier on with whatever policy suits the much bigger country. Not the best system and given the whining about Barnett it should be sorted.
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    lolandollolandol Posts: 35
    Nick Palmer:

    Don't worry, I'm not going! Off to watch Chelsea on Sunday so my kids (Lol and Ol and little Luca who has arrived since my username was created!) will want my undivided attention on Saturday!

    Hope you lose but wish you well!

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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    Roger said:



    PS 'Shy Tories' are a thing of the past

    I don't think so.

    This morning on the way to work I saw a substantial Tory poster in bits in a farmer's field. Someone had driven to more or less the middle of nowhere and snapped a thick fence post in two and left it prominently in tatters.

    I have never heard a single work colleague openly admit to voting tory in 15 years. Yet the workforce here is in constituencies with 15K + majorities. Many must do so. It is super-uncool for many many people (for want of a better word)
    I still think this is a massive factor too as the people who were very open conservatives have in a lot of instances gone to UKIP.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,151

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    taffys said:

    So much more natural and believable than Dave.

    Major has said it cannot be right the SNP is seeking to influence policy in a country where it is not fielding candidates.

    He is absolutely 100% correct.

    Garbage , he is just as thick as he has ever been, the turnip does not realise it is a UK election not an England election. He is obviously not all there.
    For UK laws.

    For English laws it can not be right that foreign MPs not standing in England are setting devolved laws for England. You can not defend the indefensible.

    EDIT: The funny thing is that the SNP used to be honourable and abstain on English-only laws, it was only Labour who did the indefensible.
    When those "English only" votes cut the Scottish budget I think you perhaps doth protest too much. The rest have always done it so it is two faced to say SNP cannot do it and just accept the accompanying budget cuts. Humbug.
    Malcom - do you agree that if the s Scottish element was stripped out and there was an E + W section that SNP should abstain, or are you of the opinion that the work of a government is all integrated and as such any vote is a Scottish issue?
    If it truly is E+W only then it should only be E+W MP's that vote. I am just not convinced that there are many occasions when this is actually the case due to the complexity of the financial implications etc.
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    Neil said:

    Has writers block, I can't think of any subtle pop music references to segue into this post

    https://twitter.com/ConHistGrp/status/590480941375758336

    Material Girl, of course :)
    True Blue.....
    No, that's me - "Sunil" :)
    Not until you come back to the fold can you be considered a True Blue....
    I voted Tory in the Redbridge locals last year!
    That's not something to be proud of! ;)
    You didn't see the alternatives... :-(
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2015
    After the talk about cuckoos upthread...
    Two birds of prey have been caught on camera brutally fighting over a nesting box, staring each other down before attacking each other with sharp talons and beaks.

    A kestrel and a barn owl repeatedly lunged at each other while trying to gain mastery of the box so they could lay eggs and rear their young in safety. And despite the owl's cuddly reputation, it came out the victor, forcing the kestrel to seek an alternative home for itself and its mate.

    The fight was captured on video by wildlife photographer Robert Fuller, using a camera he set up inside a 13ft-high elm tree stump in his garden in Thixendale, North Yorkshire.

    He said that a pair of kestrels had been guarding the nesting box in the tree, but when they left in the evening a barn owl swooped in and laid a claim to the nest.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3048654/Dramatic-fight-kestrel-barn-owl-caught-camera-hidden-nest-cam.html#ixzz3XwjzOmTW
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,151
    weejonnie said:

    currystar said:

    A comment on BBC news election ticker

    "I live in Wales and Labour have been in power for 15 years. We now have the worst performing NHS and worst performing education system in the whole of the UK. If Labour cannot provide first class services for 3 million people after 15 years, then there is no way they will do this for 50m+ English people"

    I am surprised that Wales is being ignored so much in this election as Labours record there is one of abject failure. ( Like all their administrations)

    But their hearts are in the right place unlike those evil Tory bar stewards.

    Having a great heart doesn't put food on the table as they say.
    It needs some brains as well
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    Pulpstar said:



    However, that wasn't really my point - my point was that what people are saying about John Major now bears absolutely no connection whatsoever to what people said about him when he was actually PM.

    That's right, at least for Tories (I've never met a Labour supporter who recall Major's government fondly), but which is right, the impression at the time or the nostalgic memory? I've only met him a couple of times, but he struck me as a nice man, not terribly preoccupied with politics and really more interested in cricket. In a backbencher that's arguably a healthy balance, in a PM maybe less so.
    lolandol said:



    Team2015 are going to Broxtowe from St Pancras on Saturday...

    Thanks for the helpful info. Enjoy your visit!

    PtP is up tomorrow and tyson next week. The idea of a PB pub meet in the Victoria pub on Tuesday May 5 from 8pm has been put up here, but I'm not sure if anyone else is coming - Tissue Price and Fox said they might, I think? I might be tied up till 830 or so, but voters don't like being pestered after that.

    I note a certain heat creeping into discussions about Broxtowe on the forum, and I don't want to fan it, so I'll call a unilateral ceasefire and just give the occasional anecdote without further comment on local outlook. One from the weekend:

    Inexperienced young canvasser: "You've swung from not sure to Labour? That's fantastic! How is your husband swinging?"
    Voter: "A bit naughty of you to ask, but I've found he's heterosexual, actually."



    I'll be there Nick, we can natter about diplomacy if nothing else ;)
    I have an evening clinic but should be there for 2130ish.
    Mark me down as a possible.
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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    edited April 2015
    MaxPB said:

    Roger said:

    OT (probably) .We all have our own weathervanes. Unfortunately my two have just told me they are voting Tory. One because of 33 hours child benefit the other (ludicrously) because changing government is too disruptive!!

    I've just put some money on the Tories getting between 300-325 seats so at least i'll be able to drown my sorrows with a reasonable bottle.

    There could of corse be a game changer but it's difficult to see what.

    PS 'Shy Tories' are a thing of the past

    There is no evidence of that so far. It is still deeply "uncool" to vote Conservative and while that remains the shy Tory effect will remain.
    Has anyone been listening to radio 5s tour of marginal seats. I have been cursing it every day as marginal at last election with swing to Labour should be fairly Labour by now. It has mainly the case that people say the will vote Labour, or Ukip or undecided but today from Yorkshire they had one conservative and three undecided leaning conservative. Is there something going on in Yorkshire that I don't know about. Is it Ed Balls? Having lived in Yorkshire for 8 years I had large Labour gains at this election in my prediction.

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    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    malcolmg said:

    weejonnie said:

    currystar said:

    A comment on BBC news election ticker

    "I live in Wales and Labour have been in power for 15 years. We now have the worst performing NHS and worst performing education system in the whole of the UK. If Labour cannot provide first class services for 3 million people after 15 years, then there is no way they will do this for 50m+ English people"

    I am surprised that Wales is being ignored so much in this election as Labours record there is one of abject failure. ( Like all their administrations)

    But their hearts are in the right place unlike those evil Tory bar stewards.

    Having a great heart doesn't put food on the table as they say.
    It needs some brains as well
    You sound like Nick "Dorothy" Clegg. Tinmen Tories need a heart and scare crow Labour need a brain.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,151

    malcolmg said:

    weejonnie said:

    currystar said:

    A comment on BBC news election ticker

    "I live in Wales and Labour have been in power for 15 years. We now have the worst performing NHS and worst performing education system in the whole of the UK. If Labour cannot provide first class services for 3 million people after 15 years, then there is no way they will do this for 50m+ English people"

    I am surprised that Wales is being ignored so much in this election as Labours record there is one of abject failure. ( Like all their administrations)

    But their hearts are in the right place unlike those evil Tory bar stewards.

    Having a great heart doesn't put food on the table as they say.
    It needs some brains as well
    You sound like Nick "Dorothy" Clegg. Tinmen Tories need a heart and scare crow Labour need a brain.
    No need for horrendous insults like that , some sweary words would have done
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited April 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    currystar said:

    Eds speech, "the NHS the envy of the world" Really???

    Guinea Bissau would kill for our NHS.

    France? Germany? Canada? Australia? Austria? They might have a problem with patients drinking their flower water....
    I very much doubt that France would wish to take a step backwards and adopt our inferior system; French healthcare is far superior to the NHS.
    If you look at http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?order=wbapi_data_value_2013+wbapi_data_value+wbapi_data_value-last&sort=desc

    Then you will see that French healthcare is superior... because it is *more* expensive. We spend 9.1% of GDP on healthcare. The Americans spend 17%.1(!). Most European countries spend a little more than us:
    USA             17.1
    Netherlands 12.9
    France 11.7
    Switzerland 11.5
    Germany 11.3
    Canada 10.9
    Japan 10.3
    Sweden 9.7
    Norway 9.6
    UK 9.1
    Italy 9.1
    Ireland 8.9
    Spain 8.9

    Spending on healthcare relative to GDP is not the same as spending on healthcare. Even the cash amount adjusted for purchasing power parity is not that reliable because the same amount might buy different resources in each country. So if productivity is high in a country then the same amount of cash buys more resource.

    By Labour giving doctors and nurses a big salary increase this increased the amount spent on healthcare but it did not increase the resources devoted to healthcare.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    In the past many Scottish people have tended to feel victims of the English.

    The SNP have made the Scottish people feel it is the English who have become the victims of the Scots.

    This is hard to counter if you are a UK wide party like Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem.

This discussion has been closed.