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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » These ICM sub-samples are very small but the detail of this

SystemSystem Posts: 12,217
edited April 2015 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » These ICM sub-samples are very small but the detail of this breakdown is fascinating

Inevitably when you have a 1,000 sample poll and then adjust for turnout after taking out the don’t knows the numbers you are left with can get very small. But I love the way ICM, in its general election datasets, is now breaking down constituencies by specific types.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2015
    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    It is an interesting one: the SNP can't take FFA because it would show that financially an independent Scotland would be significantly worse off. I guess the SNP have already thought of that by saying they will never do a deal with the Tories. By rejecting FFA they can carry on making absurd claims about how much better an independent Scotland would be.

    No, FFA would demonstrate the opposite - as long as the SNP can get a fair deal which is reliant on the English public demanding it, not the SNP, not Scotland but the electorate of England.

    And to achieve this, it is absolutely vital that the SNP position is not to make it clear to the media how broken the GERS numbers are. Their difficult goal (which so far they are achieving) is persuading Scotland that gerrymandered figures can be ignored without making it clear to England that they are partially reliant on the revenues from this gerrymander.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    On topic, that 23% of LD Held Seats voting LD is in line with the SW Regional Poll.

    I think the expectations of LDs on 15 to 20 seats need a serious revision.

    Downwards.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dair said:

    On topic, that 23% of LD Held Seats voting LD is in line with the SW Regional Poll.

    I think the expectations of LDs on 15 to 20 seats need a serious revision.

    Downwards.

    Both Lab and Con are polling above the LD in these seats.

    Though not at all convinced by this sort of subset analysis. Assuming Farron, Lamb, Huppert etc hang on then the others must be doing worse than average.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Dair said:

    On topic, that 23% of LD Held Seats voting LD is in line with the SW Regional Poll.

    I think the expectations of LDs on 15 to 20 seats need a serious revision.

    Downwards.

    Both Lab and Con are polling above the LD in these seats.

    Though not at all convinced by this sort of subset analysis. Assuming Farron, Lamb, Huppert etc hang on then the others must be doing worse than average.
    I am still surprised that it is almost given that Farron would survive. Why ? Has anybody checked the swing in 2010 ? Some of it could easily swingback.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2015
    surbiton said:

    Dair said:

    On topic, that 23% of LD Held Seats voting LD is in line with the SW Regional Poll.

    I think the expectations of LDs on 15 to 20 seats need a serious revision.

    Downwards.

    Both Lab and Con are polling above the LD in these seats.

    Though not at all convinced by this sort of subset analysis. Assuming Farron, Lamb, Huppert etc hang on then the others must be doing worse than average.
    I am still surprised that it is almost given that Farron would survive. Why ? Has anybody checked the swing in 2010 ? Some of it could easily swingback.
    Farron had a hefty majority in 2010 but only scraped in in 2005. Even so he appears to be safe. I think in seats such as this there is not a lot driving a switch from LD to Con. It would be an odd way of registering disapproval of the coalition!

  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Interesting concept but the Labour held marginal one can probably be ignored, I think there is general acceptance amongst all mainstream views that there will be Con -> Labour swing in England.

    The 2% for Lib Dems in tory held marginals suggests the "milliband lib dem" numbers are holding steady.

    What would be really interesting would be to collate these numbers from the last election.

    Does someone have all the results from the last election in an excel format ?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE with added APLOMB 2015 General Election & "JackW Dozen" Projection Countdown :

    3 hours 3 minutes 3 seconds
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

    Hardly surprising that Con poll better in Con held seats and Lab poll better in Lab held seats!

    Tiny numbers to interpret in this subset, but no indication of many net changes in Lab/Con marginals. These may depend on whether the kipper vote is solid, and on differential turnout. As Mike points out there are no LD left to squeeze here, and what kippers do will be critical.

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
    You are the Bob Sykes of the PB LibDems and I order the destruction of your "Winning Here" template and compulsory attendance at a Focus Again Re-education Training (FART) facility.

  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    In fact, there were 131 seats where the Tory majority was less than 15%.

    On average the LD vote was 23%. Now of course this includes some Con / LD marginals, which I forgot to account for when doing the numbers, but there aren't vast numbers of these.

    Ld collapse appears very starkly
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

    Which suggests that Labour is winning votes where they don't need them: converting held marginal to held safe seats. Or am I misunderstanding your point?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2015
    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
    You are the Bob Sykes of the PB LibDems and I order the destruction of your "Winning Here" template and compulsory attendance at a Focus Again Re-education Training (FART) facility.

    I think that the LibDems are going to be cruelly punished for providing stable good government to the British people after 2010. No good deed goes unpunished! A lot of good people are going to lose their seats, and I hope that people like Webb, Lamb, Huppert, Laws and Swinson survive.

    The polls are not budging, yet while PBers are glorying in the slaughter of SLAB, they are strangely quiet over the similar fate of the English and Welsh LDs. Clegg should have stepped down as leader after the autumn conference.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

    Which suggests that Labour is winning votes where they don't need them: converting held marginal to held safe seats. Or am I misunderstanding your point?

    [I think the maths is Labour seats held by less than 10% are now held by 22%, while Tory seats held by less than 15% are now held by 14%]
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

    Which suggests that Labour is winning votes where they don't need them: converting held marginal to held safe seats. Or am I misunderstanding your point?

    [I think the maths is Labour seats held by less than 10% are now held by 22%, while Tory seats held by less than 15% are now held by 14%]
    That is my interpretation too.

    There look to be a fair number of Lab (and Con) gains from LD but few from each other. Broxtowe may be an exception.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543
    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Also a lot of interest on the UK debt. According to Dair the National Debt is nothing to do with Scotland.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average. Not all seats will be 38% - 40%. Note in Con held seats the gap is 14%.

    In Labour held seats, the gap is significantly higher , 22%. Remember , these seats currently have Labour majorities < 10%

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
    You are the Bob Sykes of the PB LibDems and I order the destruction of your "Winning Here" template and compulsory attendance at a Focus Again Re-education Training (FART) facility.

    I think that the LibDems are going to be cruelly punished for providing stable good government to the British people after 2010. No good deed goes unpunished! A lot of good people are going to lose their seats, and I hope that people like Webb, Lamb, Huppert, Laws and Swinson survive.

    The polls are not budging, yet while PBers are glorying in the slaughter of SLAB, they are strangely quiet over the similar fate of the English and Welsh LDs. Clegg should have stepped down as leader after the autumn conference.
    As a medical personage of some repute might I suggest you undertake a political backbone transplant.

    Clearly the LibDems will suffer considerable losses but some of the guff spouted on PB about their imminent total collapse gives new meaning to Farage's favourite self description of the UKIP 2010 manifesto - drivel.

    Extrapolating tiny sub samples and regional unnamed candidate polling is a very poor guide to the yellow peril fortunes.

    The better, but not best, guides are the Ashcroft constituency polls combined with a mix of "knowns" we are aware of such as their broader seat stickability, tactical voting and far greater financial clout this time.

    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.

    In 2010 over optimism on PB had the LibDems riding high in terms of seats and in 2015 the reverse is the case. The latter will prove to be as inaccurate as the former.



  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    edited April 2015

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    A few observations:

    - Labour's lead in its marginal is higher than that in its safe seats?!
    - A very even UKIP spread, given the MoE.
    - LD third in LD-held seats. So much for incumbency. Are we looking at the LDs reduced to a minibus again?
    - SNP at 57%. I'm inclined the think LOL. But then I'm half-inclined to think whitewash (or yellowwash).
    - The key seats are the Con-held ones given that if the result in Con-held ones is the same as last time then the Tories remain in power even if they don't take a single Labour seat. There, the Con lead appears to be up, substantially.
    - But the Tories don't look like taking any seats (or hardly any) given that Labour's lead in its seats is also up.

    On the basis of that poll, a Con majority is not out of the question. You would be looking at the Tories retaining the vast majority of their own seats while taking a lot from the Lib Dems. But it'd be a brave man to place a bet on the basis of such small sub-samples.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    He's talking oil, which would no doubt be the sticking- and perhaps breaking-point in any attempt to realise FFA.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,859
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    Hahaha, marvellous stuff. None of that debt spent on Scotland then? None of it legislated for by Scottish MPs? I admire you for playing a poor hand with guts, but there's no argument here.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average.

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
    You are the Bob Sykes of the PB LibDems and I order the destruction of your "Winning Here" template and compulsory attendance at a Focus Again Re-education Training (FART) facility.

    I think that the LibDems are going to be cruelly punished for providing stable good government to the British people after 2010. No good deed goes unpunished! A lot of good people are going to lose their seats, and I hope that people like Webb, Lamb, Huppert, Laws and Swinson survive.

    The polls are not budging, yet while PBers are glorying in the slaughter of SLAB, they are strangely quiet over the similar fate of the English and Welsh LDs. Clegg should have stepped down as leader after the autumn conference.
    As a medical personage of some repute might I suggest you undertake a political backbone transplant.

    Clearly the LibDems will suffer considerable losses but some of the guff spouted on PB about their imminent total collapse gives new meaning to Farage's favourite self description of the UKIP 2010 manifesto - drivel.

    Extrapolating tiny sub samples and regional unnamed candidate polling is a very poor guide to the yellow peril fortunes.

    The better, but not best, guides are the Ashcroft constituency polls combined with a mix of "knowns" we are aware of such as their broader seat stickability, tactical voting and far greater financial clout this time.

    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.

    In 2010 over optimism on PB had the LibDems riding high in terms of seats and in 2015 the reverse is the case. The latter will prove to be as inaccurate as the former.



    I hope that you are right, but fear that you may not be. The LDs do have the advantage of having their support in concentrations, but are in 3rd place (albeit not by much) in the LD held seats.

    3% LD vote in the 100+ Lab/Con marrginals plus a similar vote in Scotland does make the 7/4 at PP on >200 LD deposit losses look good value.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,646
    Sean_F said:

    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.

    While I don't share Dair's dire predictions for the LibDems, I think 12 conservative gains is about 8-12 too low.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JackW said:



    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.


    Presumably the "senior Tories" have absolutely no interest in portraying the contest as being extremely close and thereby encouraging their footsoldiers (hi @MarqueeMark !) to fight for every inch of advantage?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.

    While I don't share Dair's dire predictions for the LibDems, I think 12 conservative gains is about 8-12 too low.
    I understand why people are sceptical.

    But surely at some point there has to be hard evidence for the Liberals clinging on to more than half a dozen seats. The Ashcroft polling looks bad for them, the national polling looks terrible for them, the LD Held subsamples look abysmal for them and the SW Regional polling looks catastrophic for them.

    All we have to believe that it might not be so bad is anecdotal "Libs have great personal votes" and other such woolly claims which the actual evidence continues to show is not nearly as strong as Liberals claim and, more importantly, Lib Dem MPs NEED.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 664

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Also a lot of interest on the UK debt. According to Dair the National Debt is nothing to do with Scotland.

    It is great that people like Dair can quote numbers with no basis with such confidence. The numbers are provided by the Scottish Govt. http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/1422

    If Scotland did not accept the debt it would lose all assets including those in Scotland. These include the roads, hospitals, RBS etc. Again a pointless discussion as it will never happen.

    The big idea that the SNP used to have was to copy Ireland and cut corporate tax but this idea is no longer likely to work. The final idea is to stick up taxes on the rich and middle classes. This is already happening with housing stamp duty and business rates. Will it get 7bn? No way.


  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.
    Sadly it doesn't work that way. It was run up by a unitary state, you can't just fantasy wish it away. There's no legal way out of it
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,706
    Is it not ironic John Major, of all people, warning about mayhem. Someone should ask him about European referenda and what the "bastards" in his own party can do.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    Moving average chart of the 100 most recent YouGov polls. Click to enlarge...

    Simple, Free Image and File Hosting at MediaFire
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average.

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
    You are the Bob Sykes of the PB LibDems and I order the destruction of your "Winning Here" template and compulsory attendance at a Focus Again Re-education Training (FART) facility.

    I think that the LibDems are going to be cruelly punished for providing stable good government to the British people after 2010. No good deed goes unpunished! A lot of good people are going to lose their seats, and I hope that people like Webb, Lamb, Huppert, Laws and Swinson survive.

    The polls are not budging, yet while PBers are glorying in the slaughter of SLAB, they are strangely quiet over the similar fate of the English and Welsh LDs. Clegg should have stepped down as leader after the autumn conference.
    As a medical personage of some repute might I suggest you undertake a political backbone transplant.

    Clearly the LibDems will suffer considerable losses but some of the guff spouted on PB about their imminent total collapse gives new meaning to Farage's favourite self description of the UKIP 2010 manifesto - drivel.

    Extrapolating tiny sub samples and regional unnamed candidate polling is a very poor guide to the yellow peril fortunes.

    The better, but not best, guides are the Ashcroft constituency polls combined with a mix of "knowns" we are aware of such as their broader seat stickability, tactical voting and far greater financial clout this time.

    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.

    In 2010 over optimism on PB had the LibDems riding high in terms of seats and in 2015 the reverse is the case. The latter will prove to be as inaccurate as the former.



    I hope that you are right, but fear that you may not be.
    You are coming mightily close to becoming an ARSE denier, a state of mind that will dangerously injurious to your wellbeing.

    As a clinician you should know prevention is better than a cure. Turn away from the dark side before the most dreadful remedial action is required.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.
    Are you going to repay the Darien bailout, then, with interest?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.
    That's the nature of a Union. A reason to end it, perhaps, but you can't wish away the obligations you accrue as a result of its current existence.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Jonathan said:

    Is it not ironic John Major, of all people, warning about mayhem. Someone should ask him about European referenda and what the "bastards" in his own party can do.

    Referenda? I don't recall multiple votes on the EU whilst Major was in power.
    Could you please provide a link so that I can remind myself of the results? Thanks.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.
    Nice try, but that argument isn't going to succeed. Scotland bears the national debt on a per capita basis like any other part of the UK.
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Sadly it doesn't work that way. It was run up by a unitary state, you can't just fantasy wish it away. There's no legal way out of it

    You're wrong in terms of legal obligations but that's not actually relevant.

    The SNP need and require England to think they subsidise Scotland (and as heavy as subsidy as possible) and for Scotland to think they are ripped off and subsidise England (and as heavy a subsidy as possible).

    As things stand, they have achieved both of these.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.
    The same argument applies to Surrey - which also has an ego-fuelled county council running the trivial day-to-day stuff.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Charles said:

    JackW said:



    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.


    Presumably the "senior Tories" have absolutely no interest in portraying the contest as being extremely close and thereby encouraging their footsoldiers (hi @MarqueeMark !) to fight for every inch of advantage?
    Might I suggest the constant beat of the media narrative of a hung parliament needs little additional effort from any other source.

    Additionally I have found in the past that my well placed Conservative source has offered an excellent analysis of political fortunes. I value the information greatly.

  • DairDair Posts: 6,108
    Charles said:


    Are you going to repay the Darien bailout, then, with interest?

    Sure if it still exists. The interest has been paid, only the capital is outstanding. A few tens of thousands of pounds.

    Remember, the UK paid it's entire War Bond Debt from WW2 in a single payment three years ago. The entire domestic borrowing for the whole of WW2 in one payment.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    edited April 2015
    Dair said:

    Sadly it doesn't work that way. It was run up by a unitary state, you can't just fantasy wish it away. There's no legal way out of it

    You're wrong in terms of legal obligations but that's not actually relevant.

    The SNP need and require England to think they subsidise Scotland (and as heavy as subsidy as possible) and for Scotland to think they are ripped off and subsidise England (and as heavy a subsidy as possible).

    As things stand, they have achieved both of these.
    Why am I wrong legally ?

    Isn't it sovereign debt by HM Government on behalf of the UK?

    Scotland is part of the UK. It has a share of debts and assets.

    Please explain
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Also a lot of interest on the UK debt. According to Dair the National Debt is nothing to do with Scotland.

    It is great that people like Dair can quote numbers with no basis with such confidence. The numbers are provided by the Scottish Govt. http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/03/1422

    If Scotland did not accept the debt it would lose all assets including those in Scotland. These include the roads, hospitals, RBS etc. Again a pointless discussion as it will never happen.

    The big idea that the SNP used to have was to copy Ireland and cut corporate tax but this idea is no longer likely to work. The final idea is to stick up taxes on the rich and middle classes. This is already happening with housing stamp duty and business rates. Will it get 7bn? No way.


    What Dair also forgets is the identity of Scotland's single biggest trading partner by a country mile. This might also be worth a read:

    http://chokkablog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/full-fiscal-autonomy-for-dummies.html
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947
    Charles said:

    JackW said:



    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.


    Presumably the "senior Tories" have absolutely no interest in portraying the contest as being extremely close and thereby encouraging their footsoldiers (hi @MarqueeMark !) to fight for every inch of advantage?
    Hello!

    * looks at another 10,000 glossy leaflets and thinks - what's the point.... *
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543
    GeoffM said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.
    The same argument applies to Surrey - which also has an ego-fuelled county council running the trivial day-to-day stuff.
    Greater London and the South East subsidise everywhere else, but we'd still have to bear our share of the national debt.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 664
    The E&W sub samples do seem to suggest the Lib Dems being squeezed when they don't hold the seat but the squeeze is not only going to Lab. Outside Scotland there may well be a high number of holds by sitting MPs. Is that not the story of the election. A status quo in E&W and a SNP surge in Scotland.
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    These polls with small samples are not worth it in my opinion. When you have about 70k voting in each seat, I am not sure you find out much when so few are polled.

    In regard to the current Tory strategy, they seem more interested in creating fear about the prospect of Labour being backed by the SNP. Before the election it was going to be about the choice between Cameron and Miliband. Do the Tories now believe that Miliband is now more popular with the electorate and it would do them no good to continue attacking him ?
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.

    That's the nature of a Union. A reason to end it, perhaps, but you can't wish away the obligations you accrue as a result of its current existence.
    Not really, it is in the interests of Westminster to come to a suitable long term agreement on the English subsidy and ideally one that it can depend upon post-Independence when England is effectively a client-State of a wealthy Scotland.

    If it does insist on such a usurious settlement, which will, remember, be based on a voluntary remittance from Scotland, it is easy to see it being cancelled at any time by the first party to gain a popular mandate based on such an economic policy.

    What does England do then. Invade? Lol.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Jonathan said:

    what the "bastards" in his own party can do.

    Right, the one thing that would be more chaotic than Lab+Lib needing SNP would be Con Maj < 10.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited April 2015
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average.

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
    You are the Bob Sykes of the PB LibDems and I order the destruction of your "Winning Here" template and compulsory attendance at a Focus Again Re-education Training (FART) facility.

    I think that the LibDems are going to be cruelly punished for

    The polls are not budging, yet while PBers are glorying in the slaughter of SLAB, they are strangely quiet over the similar fate of the English and Welsh LDs. Clegg should have stepped down as leader after the autumn conference.
    As a medical personage of some repute might I suggest you undertake a political backbone transplant.

    Clearly the LibDems will suffer considerable losses but some of the guff spouted on PB about their imminent total collapse gives new meaning to Farage's favourite self description of the UKIP 2010 manifesto - drivel.

    Extrapolating tiny sub samples and regional unnamed candidate polling is a very poor guide to the yellow peril fortunes.

    The better, but not best, guides are the Ashcroft constituency polls combined with a mix of "knowns" we are aware of such as their broader seat stickability, tactical voting and far greater financial clout this time.

    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.

    In 2010 over optimism on PB had the LibDems riding high in terms of seats and in 2015 the reverse is the case. The latter will prove to be as inaccurate as the former.



    I hope that you are right, but fear that you may not be.
    You are coming mightily close to becoming an ARSE denier, a state of mind that will dangerously injurious to your wellbeing.

    As a clinician you should know prevention is better than a cure. Turn away from the dark side before the most dreadful remedial action is required.

    I am no ARSE denier.* Though recent movements have shown worrying tendencies to give LDs brown trousers...

    * indeed the above table looks to vindicate your ARSE
  • DairDair Posts: 6,108

    Dair said:

    Sadly it doesn't work that way. It was run up by a unitary state, you can't just fantasy wish it away. There's no legal way out of it

    You're wrong in terms of legal obligations but that's not actually relevant.

    The SNP need and require England to think they subsidise Scotland (and as heavy as subsidy as possible) and for Scotland to think they are ripped off and subsidise England (and as heavy a subsidy as possible).

    As things stand, they have achieved both of these.
    Why am I wrong legally ?

    Isn't it sovereign debt by HM Government on behalf of the UK?

    Scotland is part of the UK. It has a share of debts and assets.

    Please explain
    The legal obligation is on the UK Government to make contractual payments. The relationship between a Scottish FFA government and the UK Government is entirely a separate issue and open for whatever agreement is negotiated between the UK and Scottish Governments. It has no impact on the legal payment obligations of the UK Government.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    JackW said:



    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.


    Presumably the "senior Tories" have absolutely no interest in portraying the contest as being extremely close and thereby encouraging their footsoldiers (hi @MarqueeMark !) to fight for every inch of advantage?
    Hello!

    * looks at another 10,000 glossy leaflets and thinks - what's the point.... *
    You're doing the good work on behalf of us all :)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    Sean_F said:

    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.

    So close. Another 5 seats, or so, in his favour and Cameron might be able to make that work.

    For a little while.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    Charles said:


    Are you going to repay the Darien bailout, then, with interest?

    Sure if it still exists. The interest has been paid, only the capital is outstanding. A few tens of thousands of pounds.

    Remember, the UK paid it's entire War Bond Debt from WW2 in a single payment three years ago. The entire domestic borrowing for the whole of WW2 in one payment.
    Only in those years in which the UK budget was in surplus. Otherwise the interest was merely rolled over.

    But what's the point. You don't understand economics, or political reality.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Sadly it doesn't work that way. It was run up by a unitary state, you can't just fantasy wish it away. There's no legal way out of it

    You're wrong in terms of legal obligations but that's not actually relevant.

    The SNP need and require England to think they subsidise Scotland (and as heavy as subsidy as possible) and for Scotland to think they are ripped off and subsidise England (and as heavy a subsidy as possible).

    As things stand, they have achieved both of these.
    Why am I wrong legally ?

    Isn't it sovereign debt by HM Government on behalf of the UK?

    Scotland is part of the UK. It has a share of debts and assets.

    Please explain
    The legal obligation is on the UK Government to make contractual payments. The relationship between a Scottish FFA government and the UK Government is entirely a separate issue and open for whatever agreement is negotiated between the UK and Scottish Governments. It has no impact on the legal payment obligations of the UK Government.
    Tell me: if rUK doesn't agree to give you everything that you want, will you declare UDI?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,688
    Dair said:

    Charles said:


    Are you going to repay the Darien bailout, then, with interest?

    Sure if it still exists. The interest has been paid, only the capital is outstanding. A few tens of thousands of pounds.

    Remember, the UK paid it's entire War Bond Debt from WW2 in a single payment three years ago. The entire domestic borrowing for the whole of WW2 in one payment.
    Meaningless. The war bonds portion of the WW2 debt was a tiny part of the total debt. By the end of WW2 the UK owed £21 billion in war debt alone - over 200% of GDP. And we certainly didn't pay it all off in one go either.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947
    hucks67 said:

    In regard to the current Tory strategy, they seem more interested in creating fear about the prospect of Labour being backed by the SNP. Before the election it was going to be about the choice between Cameron and Miliband. Do the Tories now believe that Miliband is now more popular with the electorate and it would do them no good to continue attacking him ?

    If you are CCHQ and you are getting reports back from constituencies across the country along the lines of "Christ on a bike! This SNP stuff is KILLING Labour on the doorsteps!", do you

    1) stick with a plan that you were getting stick about because it wasn't working or

    2) run with "the SNP will kill your first-born" thing that is the first idea in the entire campaign - from either the Tory or Labour side - that has got traction?

    It's above my pay-grade, but I'd hazard a guess.....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Dair said:

    Sadly it doesn't work that way. It was run up by a unitary state, you can't just fantasy wish it away. There's no legal way out of it

    You're wrong in terms of legal obligations but that's not actually relevant.

    The SNP need and require England to think they subsidise Scotland (and as heavy as subsidy as possible) and for Scotland to think they are ripped off and subsidise England (and as heavy a subsidy as possible).

    As things stand, they have achieved both of these.
    I think that this is a rare example of an accurate posting by Dair.

    Never mind the facts, political perception is all that matters. The objective is independence and if the people need to be lied to in order to achieve it, then so be it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    Dair said:

    The financial cost of FFA is about 7bn even with geographical allocation of oil. This is more than 10% of total expenditure. The Scots could borrow some of this initially but would the UK government support this as you may get a Greece type problem. The last time the Scots were net contributors to the UK was back in 2011/2012. The problem is not just falling oil prices but falling oil production and the decimation of the Scottish banking sector.

    It is strange irony that the time that the Scots get serious about independence is the time when it does not make sense financially.

    Not paying for Trident would save the Scots around 200m a year not the 100bn that a SNP supporter told me yesterday when I pointed out the numbers.

    Your problem is a complete lack of understanding of the fiscal position of the UK.

    Currently total subsidies paid by Scotland to England average at around £10bn per annum. The goal of the SNP is to engineer a situation where FFA can be implemented with those subsidies being minimised, stopping Scotland having to bail out predominantly the London budget year after year.

    It is working very well. We are damn close to that position now.

    All the SNP has to do is position the UK so that they get the best deal, FFA without paying subsidies to Westminster and Independence will be inevitable as soon as the relative wealth flushes out. With the additional tax revenues (probably heightened by specific tax cuts) this will be an exponential growth.
    Subsidies? Isn't that paying for common UK things like defence?
    Not the way it is set up. It is over-paying through a broken system of cost application. The most glaringly obvious being Debt Interest for Westminster's enormous debt pile which Scotland never needed or wanted and the classification of "UK Infrastructure Spending" which makes most English road projects and most London infrastructure "UK Wide" and bills Scotland for things of no benefit to her.
    I follow your argument on infrastructure, but I can't see why you'd be able to wiggle out of debt interest.
    The debt has been built up over a period where Scotland has been in absolute Fiscal Surplus and would have a substantial Sovereign Wealth fund. It is not Scotland's debt to repay as Scotland had no need and no wish to incur it.

    That, of course, is rubbish. Scots had votes; they voted for parties that advocated the Union and all that entails. If they had not agreed with the Union they would have voted for parties that opposed it. And they would have voted Yes last September.

  • SMukeshSMukesh Posts: 1,759
    Lab have found the answer to the Scotland attacks-that Cameron is prepared to break up the UK by bigging up SNP-the attacks are coming from Lab and Lib.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    surbiton said:

    First!

    The UKIP line is interesting too. The kippers are on 12%ish across all types of seats, including the tightest marginals. Few lost deposits but few seats either.

    The marginals are tight. 38% Con and 40% Labour. Not many changing hands on those measures.

    That is the average.

    The stories of the night will be Scotland and the destruction of the LibDems in England.
    You are the Bob Sykes of the PB LibDems and I order the destruction of your "Winning Here" template and compulsory attendance at a Focus Again Re-education Training (FART) facility.

    I think that the LibDems are going to be cruelly punished for
    As a medical personage of some repute might I suggest you undertake a political backbone transplant.

    Clearly the LibDems will suffer considerable losses but some of the guff spouted on PB about their imminent total collapse gives new meaning to Farage's favourite self description of the UKIP 2010 manifesto - drivel.

    Extrapolating tiny sub samples and regional unnamed candidate polling is a very poor guide to the yellow peril fortunes.

    The better, but not best, guides are the Ashcroft constituency polls combined with a mix of "knowns" we are aware of such as their broader seat stickability, tactical voting and far greater financial clout this time.

    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.

    In 2010 over optimism on PB had the LibDems riding high in terms of seats and in 2015 the reverse is the case. The latter will prove to be as inaccurate as the former.



    I hope that you are right, but fear that you may not be.
    You are coming mightily close to becoming an ARSE denier, a state of mind that will dangerously injurious to your wellbeing.

    As a clinician you should know prevention is better than a cure. Turn away from the dark side before the most dreadful remedial action is required.

    I am no ARSE denier.* Though recent movements have shown worrying tendencies to give LDs brown trousers...

    * indeed the above table looks to vindicate your ARSE
    I will consider your plea but I will retain the option of placing you on the ARSE probation list. :smile:

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672

    Dair said:

    Sadly it doesn't work that way. It was run up by a unitary state, you can't just fantasy wish it away. There's no legal way out of it

    You're wrong in terms of legal obligations but that's not actually relevant.

    The SNP need and require England to think they subsidise Scotland (and as heavy as subsidy as possible) and for Scotland to think they are ripped off and subsidise England (and as heavy a subsidy as possible).

    As things stand, they have achieved both of these.
    I think that this is a rare example of an accurate posting by Dair.

    Never mind the facts, political perception is all that matters. The objective is independence and if the people need to be lied to in order to achieve it, then so be it.

    Indeed. Fibs for freedom was the central plank of the SNP's strategy in the run up to the referendum. And look how quickly they all unravelled.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543

    hucks67 said:

    In regard to the current Tory strategy, they seem more interested in creating fear about the prospect of Labour being backed by the SNP. Before the election it was going to be about the choice between Cameron and Miliband. Do the Tories now believe that Miliband is now more popular with the electorate and it would do them no good to continue attacking him ?

    If you are CCHQ and you are getting reports back from constituencies across the country along the lines of "Christ on a bike! This SNP stuff is KILLING Labour on the doorsteps!", do you

    1) stick with a plan that you were getting stick about because it wasn't working or

    2) run with "the SNP will kill your first-born" thing that is the first idea in the entire campaign - from either the Tory or Labour side - that has got traction?

    It's above my pay-grade, but I'd hazard a guess.....
    The SNP aren't popular South of the Border, with centre-right voters. Plainly it makes sense for the Conservatives to use this argument.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,646
    Dair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.

    While I don't share Dair's dire predictions for the LibDems, I think 12 conservative gains is about 8-12 too low.
    I understand why people are sceptical.

    But surely at some point there has to be hard evidence for the Liberals clinging on to more than half a dozen seats. The Ashcroft polling looks bad for them, the national polling looks terrible for them, the LD Held subsamples look abysmal for them and the SW Regional polling looks catastrophic for them.

    All we have to believe that it might not be so bad is anecdotal "Libs have great personal votes" and other such woolly claims which the actual evidence continues to show is not nearly as strong as Liberals claim and, more importantly, Lib Dem MPs NEED.
    The Ashcroft polling would see the LibDems cling on to 30-32 seats.
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    For the first time in this campaign it feels like the Tories are on top
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,027
    It would be nice if Dair was simply a pleasant well meaning deluded individual but in fact he accurately reflects the SNP position on these matters. They genuinely believe that debt run up by the UK has nothing to do with them. This is despite Nicola Sturgeon's position being that government spending should be increased despite the deficit. Presumably that additional debt has nothing to do with Scotland either even if it is spent here on Scottish services.

    The irrationality of the SNP's position would be positively funny if it was not so serious. I vaguely recall a Yogic flying party but other than that I struggle to think of any party whose policy positions were so detached from reality.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Thinking of your very cute avatar - you could claim he ate them... :wink:

    Charles said:

    JackW said:



    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.


    Presumably the "senior Tories" have absolutely no interest in portraying the contest as being extremely close and thereby encouraging their footsoldiers (hi @MarqueeMark !) to fight for every inch of advantage?
    Hello!

    * looks at another 10,000 glossy leaflets and thinks - what's the point.... *
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    DavidL said:

    It would be nice if Dair was simply a pleasant well meaning deluded individual but in fact he accurately reflects the SNP position on these matters. They genuinely believe that debt run up by the UK has nothing to do with them. This is despite Nicola Sturgeon's position being that government spending should be increased despite the deficit. Presumably that additional debt has nothing to do with Scotland either even if it is spent here on Scottish services.

    The irrationality of the SNP's position would be positively funny if it was not so serious. I vaguely recall a Yogic flying party but other than that I struggle to think of any party whose policy positions were so detached from reality.

    I would be very surprised if Sturgeon, Salmond and other SNP leaders believe it. They may say it, but that is different. They will say whatever it takes. The reality of what that entails is unimportant to them. What matters is the international frontier. For them a poorer independent Scotland will automatically be a better place than a Scotland that remains in the UK. Why would it be otherwise? They are nationalists.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,543
    Millsy said:

    For the first time in this campaign it feels like the Tories are on top

    Too soon to say. They've come back into the game, at any rate.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Studying sub-samples and chicken entrails are methods of divination fit only for Hogwarts.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    edited April 2015
    Dair said:

    Charles said:


    Are you going to repay the Darien bailout, then, with interest?

    Sure if it still exists. The interest has been paid, only the capital is outstanding. A few tens of thousands of pounds.

    Remember, the UK paid it's entire War Bond Debt from WW2 in a single payment three years ago. The entire domestic borrowing for the whole of WW2 in one payment.
    When it redeemed the War Loan 3 1/2%? The whole of WW2 was paid for up front for £1.9 bn, in 1932? Remarkable. Who ever said Neville Chamberlain lacked foresight?

    Thank you for the confirmation that you really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really don't know what you are talking about. Very time-saving.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Scary headlines in most of the papers for Labour today..particularly the Sun..
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,516

    DavidL said:

    It would be nice if Dair was simply a pleasant well meaning deluded individual but in fact he accurately reflects the SNP position on these matters. They genuinely believe that debt run up by the UK has nothing to do with them. This is despite Nicola Sturgeon's position being that government spending should be increased despite the deficit. Presumably that additional debt has nothing to do with Scotland either even if it is spent here on Scottish services.

    The irrationality of the SNP's position would be positively funny if it was not so serious. I vaguely recall a Yogic flying party but other than that I struggle to think of any party whose policy positions were so detached from reality.

    I would be very surprised if Sturgeon, Salmond and other SNP leaders believe it. They may say it, but that is different. They will say whatever it takes. The reality of what that entails is unimportant to them. What matters is the international frontier. For them a poorer independent Scotland will automatically be a better place than a Scotland that remains in the UK. Why would it be otherwise? They are nationalists.

    I have porridge for breakfast.

    If Dair's posts are symptomatic of it's long term effects I think I'll stop.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    hucks67 said:

    These polls with small samples are not worth it in my opinion. When you have about 70k voting in each seat, I am not sure you find out much when so few are polled.

    In regard to the current Tory strategy, they seem more interested in creating fear about the prospect of Labour being backed by the SNP. Before the election it was going to be about the choice between Cameron and Miliband. Do the Tories now believe that Miliband is now more popular with the electorate and it would do them no good to continue attacking him ?

    Yep - paying attention to a couple of crossbreaks in a single ICM to tell us anything is bold

    We need to look at a few of these to even start to tell us anything.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    The Natural Law Party - IIRC that was 1994

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=438UKM1Av1g
    DavidL said:

    It would be nice if Dair was simply a pleasant well meaning deluded individual but in fact he accurately reflects the SNP position on these matters. They genuinely believe that debt run up by the UK has nothing to do with them. This is despite Nicola Sturgeon's position being that government spending should be increased despite the deficit. Presumably that additional debt has nothing to do with Scotland either even if it is spent here on Scottish services.

    The irrationality of the SNP's position would be positively funny if it was not so serious. I vaguely recall a Yogic flying party but other than that I struggle to think of any party whose policy positions were so detached from reality.

  • ukelectukelect Posts: 140
    rcs1000 said:

    Dair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.

    While I don't share Dair's dire predictions for the LibDems, I think 12 conservative gains is about 8-12 too low.
    I understand why people are sceptical.

    But surely at some point there has to be hard evidence for the Liberals clinging on to more than half a dozen seats. The Ashcroft polling looks bad for them, the national polling looks terrible for them, the LD Held subsamples look abysmal for them and the SW Regional polling looks catastrophic for them.

    All we have to believe that it might not be so bad is anecdotal "Libs have great personal votes" and other such woolly claims which the actual evidence continues to show is not nearly as strong as Liberals claim and, more importantly, Lib Dem MPs NEED.
    The Ashcroft polling would see the LibDems cling on to 30-32 seats.
    Yes, it's the Ashcroft polling that is (mostly) keeping the predicted LibDem totals in the mid to high 20s rather than less than 20.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,672
    Sean_F said:

    Millsy said:

    For the first time in this campaign it feels like the Tories are on top

    Too soon to say. They've come back into the game, at any rate.

    They were never out of it. But it is beyond me how Cameron and the Tories successfully heal their relationship with Scotland should they retain power. They have effectively decided the only way to win is to insult 75% of the electorate up there. Why they bothered to fight so hard for a No vote is a mystery.

  • ukelectukelect Posts: 140
    Millsy said:

    For the first time in this campaign it feels like the Tories are on top

    Why? Have I missed something in the polls?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    The Tories are attacking the SNP...not the population of Scotland.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    edited April 2015

    Scary headlines in most of the papers for Labour today..particularly the Sun..

    And the notion that we have a fair and balanced press is laughable.

    We're just as bad if not worse than many a banana republic....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2015
    Maybe 315 seats is the target for parties / coalitions. If you get to 315 you can invite the Democratic Unionsts with 8 seats to support you which takes you to 323 seats, which is enough to govern assuming Sinn Fein continue to stay away from Westminster.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited April 2015
    rcs1000 said:

    Dair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.

    While I don't share Dair's dire predictions for the LibDems, I think 12 conservative gains is about 8-12 too low.
    I understand why people are sceptical.

    But surely at some point there has to be hard evidence for the Liberals clinging on to more than half a dozen seats. The Ashcroft polling looks bad for them, the national polling looks terrible for them, the LD Held subsamples look abysmal for them and the SW Regional polling looks catastrophic for them.

    All we have to believe that it might not be so bad is anecdotal "Libs have great personal votes" and other such woolly claims which the actual evidence continues to show is not nearly as strong as Liberals claim and, more importantly, Lib Dem MPs NEED.
    The Ashcroft polling would see the LibDems cling on to 30-32 seats.
    Indeed.

    There are a few other factors to throw in the mix :

    1. Nationally there appears to be a small uptick in some polls for the LibDems.

    2. Name recognition will add several points to incumbents.

    3. The local campaign will be undertaking the "Winning Here"/ Bar Chart strategy to full effect.

    4. The LibDems are not short of cash this time.

    These factors will help the yellow peril tip the balance in several marginals.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711

    hucks67 said:

    In regard to the current Tory strategy, they seem more interested in creating fear about the prospect of Labour being backed by the SNP. Before the election it was going to be about the choice between Cameron and Miliband. Do the Tories now believe that Miliband is now more popular with the electorate and it would do them no good to continue attacking him ?

    If you are CCHQ and you are getting reports back from constituencies across the country along the lines of "Christ on a bike! This SNP stuff is KILLING Labour on the doorsteps!", do you

    1) stick with a plan that you were getting stick about because it wasn't working or

    2) run with "the SNP will kill your first-born" thing that is the first idea in the entire campaign - from either the Tory or Labour side - that has got traction?

    It's above my pay-grade, but I'd hazard a guess.....
    Quite clearly, Labour have picked up that this is starting to hurt them on the doorstep. If they hadn't they wouldn't be attacking it in such shrill and strident terms.

    They'd either ignore it, or smile and shrug it off otherwise.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947
    Plato said:

    Thinking of your very cute avatar - you could claim he ate them... :wink:

    Charles said:

    JackW said:



    Yesterday my senior Conservative source, not known for their pessimism, indicated six "in the bag" gains and double that of TCTC seats. This together with other information and intel coming my way from other sources seems a reasoned assessment.


    Presumably the "senior Tories" have absolutely no interest in portraying the contest as being extremely close and thereby encouraging their footsoldiers (hi @MarqueeMark !) to fight for every inch of advantage?
    Hello!

    * looks at another 10,000 glossy leaflets and thinks - what's the point.... *
    Good idea! I have lots of pictures of him looking very pleased with himself in a sea of shredded Xmas wrapping paper.... As long as no-one looks very closely, I might just get away with it!
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Studying sub-samples and chicken entrails are methods of divination fit only for Hogwarts.

    Free Owls Analysis ??

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    edited April 2015
    ukelect said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Dair said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    That's a 2% swing to Labour in the marginals, which would net Labour 27 seats. Assuming 30 losses to the SNP, 8 gains from the Lib Dems, and 12 or so Con gains from the Lib Dems, that would give 288 Con to 263 Lab.

    While I don't share Dair's dire predictions for the LibDems, I think 12 conservative gains is about 8-12 too low.
    I understand why people are sceptical.

    But surely at some point there has to be hard evidence for the Liberals clinging on to more than half a dozen seats. The Ashcroft polling looks bad for them, the national polling looks terrible for them, the LD Held subsamples look abysmal for them and the SW Regional polling looks catastrophic for them.

    All we have to believe that it might not be so bad is anecdotal "Libs have great personal votes" and other such woolly claims which the actual evidence continues to show is not nearly as strong as Liberals claim and, more importantly, Lib Dem MPs NEED.
    The Ashcroft polling would see the LibDems cling on to 30-32 seats.
    Yes, it's the Ashcroft polling that is (mostly) keeping the predicted LibDem totals in the mid to high 20s rather than less than 20.
    The Lib Dems will be praying that Question 2 gives the right outcome.

    Unfortunately noone (In the public domain at any rate) has done named candidate single question with no prior leading questions polling.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Murali.s..I guess the Press would be fair and balanced if the headlines were as poisonous for the Cons
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Latest ARSE with added APLOMB 2015 General Election & "JackW Dozen" Projection Countdown :

    44 minutes 44 seconds
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    edited April 2015

    Sean_F said:

    Millsy said:

    For the first time in this campaign it feels like the Tories are on top

    Too soon to say. They've come back into the game, at any rate.

    They were never out of it. But it is beyond me how Cameron and the Tories successfully heal their relationship with Scotland should they retain power. They have effectively decided the only way to win is to insult 75% of the electorate up there. Why they bothered to fight so hard for a No vote is a mystery.

    Heavily criticising the SNP, its policies and potential chaotic effect on the UK government does not equal insulting Scots.

    Except to our Nat posters, who believe the two are one and the same.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    Apart from shooting him..how does one get rid of a very noisy Cuckoo that has taken up temporary residency in my garden
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,711
    AndyJS said:

    Maybe 315 seats is the target for parties / coalitions. If you get to 315 you can invite the Democratic Unionsts with 8 seats to support you which takes you to 323 seats, which is enough to govern assuming Sinn Fein continue to stay away from Westminster.

    That assumption might not necessarily still be valid. Their manifesto launch yesterday interestingly mentioned a desire to influence some UK government policy.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Since grammar/English usuage pedantry is rife on here - thought this would amuse.
    What unusual phrases does YOUR region use? Interactive grammar map reveals bizarre language differences across the U.S.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3047678/What-unusual-phrases-does-area-use-Interactive-grammar-map-reveals-bizarre-language-differences-US.html#ixzz3XvSzhjEK
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    AndyJS said:

    Maybe 315 seats is the target for parties / coalitions. If you get to 315 you can invite the Democratic Unionsts with 8 seats to support you which takes you to 323 seats, which is enough to govern assuming Sinn Fein continue to stay away from Westminster.

    Huzzah, we are on the same page here :D

    Con + LD = 315 is the absolute minima they need to carry on.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Sean_F said:

    Millsy said:

    For the first time in this campaign it feels like the Tories are on top

    Too soon to say. They've come back into the game, at any rate.

    They were never out of it. But it is beyond me how Cameron and the Tories successfully heal their relationship with Scotland should they retain power. They have effectively decided the only way to win is to insult 75% of the electorate up there. Why they bothered to fight so hard for a No vote is a mystery.

    They're not insulting them.

    They are simply saying: we understand that you are voting for a party that will fight for the sole interests of the Scottish component of the UK. That's not in the interests of the rest of the UK.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,947

    Apart from shooting him..how does one get rid of a very noisy Cuckoo that has taken up temporary residency in my garden

    Very lucky - they are so damned rare now.

    He'll* probably find a reed-bed somewhere soon enough - that is where they are mostly seen these days. The days of them being a common bird of field and hedge seem long-gone.

    *It will be a he - the females make a strange gurgling noise....
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    AndyJS said:

    Maybe 315 seats is the target for parties / coalitions. If you get to 315 you can invite the Democratic Unionsts with 8 seats to support you which takes you to 323 seats, which is enough to govern assuming Sinn Fein continue to stay away from Westminster.

    Huzzah, we are on the same page here :D

    Con + LD = 315 is the absolute minima they need to carry on.
    ElectionForecast is putting them on 309 at the moment so only a tiny shift needed to hit the survivability level.
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