40% of NHS staff are foreign born? So now they are resorting to just plain lies.
Racist lefties thinking that non whites are foreigners
40% of British registered doctors trained overseas. I do not know the figure for nurses but probably not far different.
I think Bennett is right on this.
Which makes Farage's point; why aren't Brits entering health professions?
Mostly too few training places. It is a rare example of me agreeing with the kippers.
I seemed to remember a 6-7 years ago we had this crazy situation where there were too many doctors being trained, but then no where for them to go and the government lost a ruling in regards to immigration that meant that they couldn't discriminate in favour of British newly qualified doctors.
Mixed in with that, so stupid Labour computer system, where newly qualified doctors couldn't fill in all the relevant information in order to "sell" themselves for further positions.
I presume all those that didn't get onto further training buggered off to places like Australia.
I used to really like him, but he's lost the plot over the last decade and isn't in control tonight. Julia Thingy on ITV was infinitely better, even if she dressed like a dental hygienist.
40% of NHS staff are foreign born? So now they are resorting to just plain lies.
Racist lefties thinking that non whites are foreigners
40% of British registered doctors trained overseas. I do not know the figure for nurses but probably not far different.
I think Bennett is right on this.
Which makes Farage's point; why aren't Brits entering health professions?
Mostly too few training places. It is a rare example of me agreeing with the kippers.
I seemed to remember a few years ago we had this crazy situation where there were too many doctors being trained, but then no where for them to go. Mixed in with that, so stupid Labour computer system, where newly qualified doctors couldn't fill in all the relevant information in order to "sell" themselves for further positions.
I presume all those that didn't get onto further training buggered off to places like Australia.
I think there was also a bottleneck where there were very few consultant positions opening up.
In every single constituency a plurality of voters got an MP they voted for.
Plus local representatives represent all constituents for their casework not just party supporters. I know people who've had casework dealt with by an MP of a party the oppose but we're greatful still that their issue was dealt with. If you break the constituency link then who deals with that casework?
Quite, and a plurality is non necessarily a majority. So my statement is fact.
I'm not suggesting completely-breaking the constituency link. It's not as if there's no alternative to single-member seats, the mere imaginative creations of the Boundary Commissioners. In Northern Ireland, something like 90% of voters elect someone to the Assembly.
Your statement is a fact but a red herring. Each and every constituency has the most popular (by plurality) local representatives. Your reforms would destroy that link so stop throwing away red herrings. Or are you claiming everyone would have a majority selected local individual who represents them under PR?
On the contrary, yours is the red herring. What use is a mere plurality for anyone, when the majority elect no-one? What is the purpose of an election, other than to elect? If a significant minority (never mind an actual majority, as presently) elect no-one, the system fails its own most basic test.
No wonder only 20% can name their MP. Why should they be able to? The majority elected no-one!
Such disengagement can not be looked upon with equanimity, surely?
Name a single democratic single-constituency system where a majority elect their first choice representative? Your claim is a red herring as it doesn't exist. No system ever has done that, so its redundant. When no system allows a majority, then the plurality is democratic.
Duh! Are you paying attention? It used to happen almost every time in this country until 2005...
Judging by that huge applause and whooping for Sturgeon on voting SNP, this audience doesn't just seem left-wing, it seems highly Scottish nationalist. Has there been an infiltration?
In every single constituency a plurality of voters got an MP they voted for.
Plus local representatives represent all constituents for their casework not just party supporters. I know people who've had casework dealt with by an MP of a party the oppose but we're greatful still that their issue was dealt with. If you break the constituency link then who deals with that casework?
Quite, and a plurality is non necessarily a majority. So my statement is fact.
I'm not suggesting completely-breaking the constituency link. It's not as if there's no alternative to single-member seats, the mere imaginative creations of the Boundary Commissioners. In Northern Ireland, something like 90% of voters elect someone to the Assembly.
Your statement is a fact but a red herring. Each and every constituency has the most popular (by plurality) local representatives. Your reforms would destroy that link so stop throwing away red herrings. Or are you claiming everyone would have a majority selected local individual who represents them under PR?
On the contrary, yours is the red herring. What use is a mere plurality for anyone, when the majority elect no-one? What is the purpose of an election, other than to elect? If a significant minority (never mind an actual majority, as presently) elect no-one, the system fails its own most basic test.
No wonder only 20% can name their MP. Why should they be able to? The majority elected no-one!
Such disengagement can not be looked upon with equanimity, surely?
Name a single democratic single-constituency system where a majority elect their first choice representative? Your claim is a red herring as it doesn't exist. No system ever has done that, so its redundant. When no system allows a majority, then the plurality is democratic.
Duh! Are you paying attention? It used to happen almost every time in this country until 2005...
So our system is best? Great I agree.
Just because the voters can't unanimously decide isn't a reason to change the system.
40% of NHS staff are foreign born? So now they are resorting to just plain lies.
Racist lefties thinking that non whites are foreigners
40% of British registered doctors trained overseas. I do not know the figure for nurses but probably not far different.
I think Bennett is right on this.
Which makes Farage's point; why aren't Brits entering health professions?
Mostly too few training places. It is a rare example of me agreeing with the kippers.
I seemed to remember a 6-7 years ago we had this crazy situation where there were too many doctors being trained, but then no where for them to go and the government lost a ruling in regards to immigration that meant that they couldn't discriminate in favour of British newly qualified doctors.
Mixed in with that, so stupid Labour computer system, where newly qualified doctors couldn't fill in all the relevant information in order to "sell" themselves for further positions.
I presume all those that didn't get onto further training buggered off to places like Australia.
Not quite right, apart from Patricia Hewitt doing major damage to postgraduate medical training in the UK.
Judging by that huge applause and whooping for Sturgeon on voting SNP, this audience doesn't just seem left-wing, it seems highly Scottish nationalist. Has there been an infiltration?
Vacuous Nicola-gasm. Like the Cleggasm of 2010, it's fashionable (even for English people) to say they like the SNP.
Will soon change when the SNP start dictating the direction of English affairs.
#LosersDebate The one where Leanne, Nicola and Natalie gang up on Ed, who tries to rattle Nigel, who points the finger at Dave, who sidelined Nick, who blamed Ed, who fought back against Leanne, and then realised he might need Nicola, who laughs...... continues ad infinitum
I'd give Ms Greenie the most points for performance in this debate. She's sounded sensible, convincing and sincere. Her tone doesn't match the daftness of her policies - but she's made them sound like a viable choice. I can see quite a few lefties shifting her way.
Judging by that huge applause and whooping for Sturgeon on voting SNP, this audience doesn't just seem left-wing, it seems highly Scottish nationalist. Has there been an infiltration?
In the year of our Lord 2015, Scottish patriots, starving and outnumbered, stormed the BBC Five-Way debate...
For PB Kippers the BBC did not select the audience.
For JackW, many of those on here criticising the audience balance are PB Tories not PB kippers.
Duly noted .... so ....
For PB Kippers and some PB Tories the BBC did not select the audience.
OTOH they selected the selecters. It shows.
Oh my god you mean the audience "selecters" didn't stuff the place with 90% of Kippers ....
The issue has nothing to do with who the place is stuffed with.
American debates are held in audience silence. Australian debates are held in audience silence. ITV's debate was held in relative audience silence. BBC's debate has had the audience vocal all along.
The issue isn't that the audience isn't balanced, the odds of getting a balanced audience on every topic is slim to nil. The issue is that the BBC are allowing them to be vocal at all.
#LosersDebate The one where Leanne, Nicola and Natalie gang up on Ed, who tries to rattle Nigel, who points the finger at Dave, who sidelined Nick, who blamed Ed, who fought back against Leanne, and then realised he might need Nicola, who laughs...... continues ad infinitum
These debates show what Britain actually thinks. Not what the rightwing press shrieks that it should think.
eg immigration.
For someone who spends a lot of time on a website almost dedicated to polling this is a very odd statement. It is pretty clear that the audience is out of kilter with the British national consensus on immigration, probably because the BBC (via some patsy) just rounded up a bunch of metropolitan lefties. In London attitudes are without doubt pro-immigration, even among British citizens, but that is absolutely not the case in the rest of the country.
I think after Sturgeon's performance- she is mighty- Englanders will not really mind if she has a say in England. She is so much better than the rest- give her a go.
Every time I hear Leanne I can't help thinking of Mrs Ogmore-Pritchard. I think I'm going to dig out Under Milk Wood. I really like Leanne Nicola and Natalie and even Ed I think has his heart in the right place. We just need to lose the Tories
40% of NHS staff are foreign born? So now they are resorting to just plain lies.
Racist lefties thinking that non whites are foreigners
40% of British registered doctors trained overseas. I do not know the figure for nurses but probably not far different.
I think Bennett is right on this.
Which makes Farage's point; why aren't Brits entering health professions?
Mostly too few training places. It is a rare example of me agreeing with the kippers.
I seemed to remember a 6-7 years ago we had this crazy situation where there were too many doctors being trained, but then no where for them to go and the government lost a ruling in regards to immigration that meant that they couldn't discriminate in favour of British newly qualified doctors.
Mixed in with that, so stupid Labour computer system, where newly qualified doctors couldn't fill in all the relevant information in order to "sell" themselves for further positions.
I presume all those that didn't get onto further training buggered off to places like Australia.
Not quite right, apart from Patricia Hewitt doing major damage to postgraduate medical training in the UK.
This was what I was thinking of....
Exodus warning as 21,000 junior doctors chase 9,500 posts
There was also some issue with a court case to do with immigrant doctors I seem to remember, involving basically not being able to discriminate in favour of UK doctors for training places.
For PB Kippers the BBC did not select the audience.
For JackW, many of those on here criticising the audience balance are PB Tories not PB kippers.
Duly noted .... so ....
For PB Kippers and some PB Tories the BBC did not select the audience.
OTOH they selected the selecters. It shows.
Oh my god you mean the audience "selecters" didn't stuff the place with 90% of Kippers ....
The issue has nothing to do with who the place is stuffed with.
American debates are held in audience silence. Australian debates are held in audience silence. ITV's debate was held in relative audience silence. BBC's debate has had the audience vocal all along.
The issue isn't that the audience isn't balanced, the odds of getting a balanced audience on every topic is slim to nil. The issue is that the BBC are allowing them to be vocal at all.
For PB Kippers the BBC did not select the audience.
For JackW, many of those on here criticising the audience balance are PB Tories not PB kippers.
Duly noted .... so ....
For PB Kippers and some PB Tories the BBC did not select the audience.
OTOH they selected the selecters. It shows.
Oh my god you mean the audience "selecters" didn't stuff the place with 90% of Kippers ....
The issue has nothing to do with who the place is stuffed with.
American debates are held in audience silence. Australian debates are held in audience silence. ITV's debate was held in relative audience silence. BBC's debate has had the audience vocal all along.
The issue isn't that the audience isn't balanced, the odds of getting a balanced audience on every topic is slim to nil. The issue is that the BBC are allowing them to be vocal at all.
Lets gag the audience in an election debate !!
Well it's a view but a pretty grubby one.
So American debates are grubby? Australian debates are grubby? ITV debate was grubby?
No the purpose of a debate is to have a debate between the people on stage representing the parties up for election, not a tiny group in the audience who will never represent the country accurately.
Very strong ending statements from both Farage and Miliband. I think they have jointly won this debate, from what I saw. Sturgeon did well when she talked, but didn't seem very visible. Wood came out with some silly things, and Bennett once again seemed far out of her depth.
Judging by that huge applause and whooping for Sturgeon on voting SNP, this audience doesn't just seem left-wing, it seems highly Scottish nationalist. Has there been an infiltration?
In the year of our Lord 2015, Scottish patriots, starving and outnumbered, stormed the BBC Five-Way debate...
40% of NHS staff are foreign born? So now they are resorting to just plain lies.
Racist lefties thinking that non whites are foreigners
40% of British registered doctors trained overseas. I do not know the figure for nurses but probably not far different.
I think Bennett is right on this.
Which makes Farage's point; why aren't Brits entering health professions?
Mostly too few training places. It is a rare example of me agreeing with the kippers.
I seemed to remember a 6-7 years ago we had this crazy situation where there were too many doctors being trained, but then no where for them to go and the government lost a ruling in regards to immigration that meant that they couldn't discriminate in favour of British newly qualified doctors.
Mixed in with that, so stupid Labour computer system, where newly qualified doctors couldn't fill in all the relevant information in order to "sell" themselves for further positions.
I presume all those that didn't get onto further training buggered off to places like Australia.
Not quite right, apart from Patricia Hewitt doing major damage to postgraduate medical training in the UK.
This was what I was thinking of....
Exodus warning as 21,000 junior doctors chase 9,500 posts
It was Labour that cut the number of posts and created the crisis.
There was nearly no medical unemployment before 2007.
But that was only part of the disaster. The other half of the disaster was mismanaging the appointment of the remaining posts. We lost a lot of good trainees as a result.
So my Twitter feed is pretty much unanimous in the summary that Ed did well until the end where he smashed into the only other car in the car park. Repeatedly.
Farage gets a bad reception for having the gall to say our housing shortage is exacerbated by immigration levels.
Which is nothing but the truth, as is the shortage of school places.
Long coverage on shortage of school places in Birmingham on 5 Live earlier. Not once did the BBC address the elephant in the room: that it's largely down to the influx of people into the city and the public services are stretched because of it.
So my Twitter feed is pretty much unanimous in the summary that Ed did well until the end where he smashed into the only other car in the car park. Repeatedly.
Farage delivered the final nail in UKIPs coffin tonight. He couldn't even keep pace with Natalie Bennett, continually embarrassed himself and his party. I can see them dropping down sub 8% quite easily now.
We hear rather a lot from the public in election campaigns. It's non-stop "let's see what Mrs Miggins of Cirencester reckons" and then the public gets the last word in the form of a huge game of noughts and crosses (mainly crosses).
But I'm a member of the public and tune in to a leaders' debate to hear from the leaders. The tedious, constant clap-o-meter nonsense is just distracting. It isn't about gagging anyone - it's creating watchable TV
Very strong ending statements from both Farage and Miliband. I think they have jointly won this debate, from what I saw. Sturgeon did well when she talked, but didn't seem very visible. Wood came out with some silly things, and Bennett once again seemed far out of her depth.
Farage gets a bad reception for having the gall to say our housing shortage is exacerbated by immigration levels.
Which is nothing but the truth, as is the shortage of school places.
Long coverage on shortage of school places in Birmingham on 5 Live earlier. Not once did the BBC address the elephant in the room: that it's largely down to the influx of people into the city and the public services are stretched because of it.
70% of Britons think immigration is too high. 90% of #BBCDebate audience claps defence of high immigration.
The audience wasn't decided by the BBC. As Dimbleby pointed out it was done by an independent polling firm.
Did the independent polling firm decide that they could be vocal?
Does this example of how an 'independent polling firm' (are there any biased ones?) works make anyone wonder about the opinion polls? Not bias, but methodology.
Well, that was interesting. I haven't been reading the thread, didn't want to be influenced, but it did seem that though the questioners were pretty favourable for Farage in how they framed their questions, the audience was heavily against him. And I know Sturgeon is good, she's even great, but she's not the second coming of Jesus.
Summary:
EM - Almost aggressively reasonable much of the time, if that makes sense. Found the question on coalition hard going, but otherwise sailed through looking and sounding good, with only the NHS bit leading to some concerted attacks.
NF - Did well in front of a very hostile audience.
LW - the least fluent performer. Maybe played better at home?
NS - Had a cake walk. Why did Salmond not go after the English vote like this?
NB - Solid. Not attacked just like last time, not as good a performer as Sturgeon obviously, but put herself across well.
I did feel myself becoming more right wing while watching though, Farage was appealing to me more, with Ed next, though Sturgeon was the clear standout and surely the winner of any sort of poll on tonight.
I also feel PC and the Greens are shooting themselves in the foot. They have promised not to prop up the Tories, to actively back up anything that will prevent that - and since they do not have the muscle of the SNP MPs, their demands can therefore be safely ignored by Ed as they will back him anyway. Only where they agree with the SNP (which is quite a lot of course) will they get anything.
Comments
Mixed in with that, so stupid Labour computer system, where newly qualified doctors couldn't fill in all the relevant information in order to "sell" themselves for further positions.
I presume all those that didn't get onto further training buggered off to places like Australia.
'For PB Kippers the BBC did not select the audience.'
Did they hand that task to the Guardian?
http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/briefings/uk-public-opinion-toward-immigration-overall-attitudes-and-level-concern
Boiler plate attacks on the Tories aren't going to make any difference.
The Tories The Tories The Tories
Waylelz Wayelz Wayelz
The Tories
Mark Reckless (@MarkReckless)
April 16
Question just now was from Rochester based Tory activist
Just because the voters can't unanimously decide isn't a reason to change the system.
The question is what is more damaging - SNP/PC/Green attacks on Ed or the attacks on Cameron.
If anything Ed has come under stronger attack.
Will soon change when the SNP start dictating the direction of English affairs.
The one where Leanne, Nicola and Natalie gang up on Ed, who tries to rattle Nigel, who points the finger at Dave, who sidelined Nick, who blamed Ed, who fought back against Leanne, and then realised he might need Nicola, who laughs...... continues ad infinitum
American debates are held in audience silence.
Australian debates are held in audience silence.
ITV's debate was held in relative audience silence.
BBC's debate has had the audience vocal all along.
The issue isn't that the audience isn't balanced, the odds of getting a balanced audience on every topic is slim to nil. The issue is that the BBC are allowing them to be vocal at all.
Hence Farage bombed on the immigration question.
Tim Montgomerie ن ✔ @montie
70% of Britons think immigration is too high. 90% of #BBCDebate audience claps defence of high immigration.
Im going to say Helmet Hairdo - First and Farage - Second
I love that show.
I suspect there aren't many among the electorate who believe there is an endless bucket of money.
Exodus warning as 21,000 junior doctors chase 9,500 posts
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1521307/Exodus-warning-as-21000-junior-doctors-chase-9500-posts.html
Then the next year the whole system for getting a training place was a total disaster as well...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6521095.stm
There was also some issue with a court case to do with immigrant doctors I seem to remember, involving basically not being able to discriminate in favour of UK doctors for training places.
Well it's a view but a pretty grubby one.
The voice of the nation (that watched the debate)
Losers: those who weren't there
Australian debates are grubby?
ITV debate was grubby?
No the purpose of a debate is to have a debate between the people on stage representing the parties up for election, not a tiny group in the audience who will never represent the country accurately.
Money no object....
Verdict
Sturgeon is a star, Faragee is a loonie, Leanne is fit, the Greenie is hysterical, and Ed is Zoolander.
There was nearly no medical unemployment before 2007.
But that was only part of the disaster. The other half of the disaster was mismanaging the appointment of the remaining posts. We lost a lot of good trainees as a result.
As I missed that part how did he mess it up?
Smallest in height but towered over the other four (and the chicken couple).
Oh its William Hague
But I'm a member of the public and tune in to a leaders' debate to hear from the leaders. The tedious, constant clap-o-meter nonsense is just distracting. It isn't about gagging anyone - it's creating watchable TV
Miliband did okay.
"I'm quite sanguine as a Tory voter.'
Well I have to say I'm surprised. I wouldn't be.
Not bias, but methodology.
Summary:
EM - Almost aggressively reasonable much of the time, if that makes sense. Found the question on coalition hard going, but otherwise sailed through looking and sounding good, with only the NHS bit leading to some concerted attacks.
NF - Did well in front of a very hostile audience.
LW - the least fluent performer. Maybe played better at home?
NS - Had a cake walk. Why did Salmond not go after the English vote like this?
NB - Solid. Not attacked just like last time, not as good a performer as Sturgeon obviously, but put herself across well.
I did feel myself becoming more right wing while watching though, Farage was appealing to me more, with Ed next, though Sturgeon was the clear standout and surely the winner of any sort of poll on tonight.
I also feel PC and the Greens are shooting themselves in the foot. They have promised not to prop up the Tories, to actively back up anything that will prevent that - and since they do not have the muscle of the SNP MPs, their demands can therefore be safely ignored by Ed as they will back him anyway. Only where they agree with the SNP (which is quite a lot of course) will they get anything.