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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » LAB lead up and Ed ratings boost in latest Ipsos-MORI phone

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  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    £1.80 for a paper which is not worth reading at all.

    I think it's one of the papers you can get free in Waitrose, the Observer certainly is.

    The best part of £500 pa for a newspaper? No thanks.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,964
    Good evening, everyone.

    The Panelbase did look a bit out of whack. We'll see how the next ICM looks.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    chestnut said:

    Ipsos Sample:

    207 Private sector workers
    154 Public sector workers

    42.6% of employees in public sector, when national figure is about 17-18%?

    It makes me wonder why it is so easy to make contact by phone with this set of people.

    The Southern England (excl. London) subsample implies massive swings to Lab from 2010.

    Yes but they've been weighted to 71 public and 267 private. Not ideal to be making such dramatic weightings, though.
    154 weighted down to 71 and 207 weighted up to 267.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL - that's superbly blunt.

    Almost disappointed this didn't happen: "Consider this: stay out of American electoral politics. Unless you would like a company of US Navy Seals - Republican to a man - to descend upon the offices of the Guardian, bag the lot of you, and transport you to Guantanamo Bay, where you can share quarters with some lonely Taliban shepherd boys.
    United States"

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    Part-ELBOW for the week so far - update for Ipsos MORI and Panelbase:

    Lab lead 0.8%

    (cf. full end-of-week ELBOW last week: Lab lead 1.2%)

    Or if you prefer, the simple average for all polls so far this week = Lab lead 0.2%

    Take your pick :)
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It is not him who has done anything to avoid a trial.

    He actually seems to have played a very active role in avoiding prosecution for these alleged crimes over the years.
    According to the CPS's own statement, they said that the reasons no trials were held on two previous occasions was because of their and the police's mistakes.

    I suspect that the answers he gave when interviewed also played a role.

    You suspect? Or do you know?

    He has maintained his innocence. Unless you have some evidence that he deliberately sought to obstruct justice you don't know. All we can go on is what the CPS today has said which is:-

    "In relation to the other three previous investigations, the CPS also now considers that the evidential test was passed.

    “It follows that the CPS judges that mistakes were made in the decision-making at the time by both the Leicestershire police in 2002 and the CPS in 1991 and 2007."

    It is a very great shame that the CPS and the police were incompetent. In this case, justice has not been done. But we do still have the principle of "innocent until proven guilty" and Lord Janner is as entitled to that as anyone else.




  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    I think people are paying sufficient attention to all aspects of the DPP's announcement. My sympathy for the subject of the announcement is extremely limited.

    It has got nothing whatsoever to do with 'sympathy'. You have put your finger, unwittingly, on exactly what is wrong.
    I dont think you've made a good case for why leaving doubt about whether the complaints were credible or not would be a better option than making it clear that there was a case to answer but that he's managed to evade justice for just long enough to be unfit to face trial when the authorities finally got their act together.

    Your reference to him "evading justice" is assuming what would need to be proved - beyond reasonable doubt - at a trial. It is not him who has done anything to avoid a trial. It is the authorities who have failed in their duties. As there can now be no trial, he is an innocent man.

    The CPS's failure is a mistake on lots of levels: for Lord Janner and his family because he has not had a chance to clear himself of appalling allegations, given that he mantained his innocence and for those who have made the allegations who have been denied the benefits of a competent justice system.

    To my mind, having a well-funded and effective judicial system is at least as important as the NHS. Indeed, the justice system is an essential part of what the state should do - and do well. And yet it is on no-one's priority list. For the state to fail in defence, policing, justice, prisons is a huge, huge failing - and far far more important than some of the trivialities being talked about in this election.
    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1991/dec/02/child-abuse-leicestershire#S6CV0200P0_19911202_HOC_153
    Or perhaps this is rather more disturbing:

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1991/dec/03/contempt-of-court#S6CV0200P0_19911203_HOC_423

    I fully accept Greville Janner is innocent until proven guilty. What I would very much like to know is why he was not prosecuted 25 years ago given that there was a pretty damning allegation made against him which prima facie required full investigation by the police, so that this could be clearly established either way. That is something I hope there will be a formal enquiry to establish.
    There will be. A retired judge has been asked to look into what happened.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It is not him who has done anything to avoid a trial.

    He actually seems to have played a very active role in avoiding prosecution for these alleged crimes over the years.
    According to the CPS's own statement, they said that the reasons no trials were held on two previous occasions was because of their and the police's mistakes.

    I suspect that the answers he gave when interviewed also played a role.

    You suspect? Or do you know?
    Well how do you think he responded to the question "did you abuse this child"?
  • weejonnieweejonnie Posts: 3,820
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    £1.80 for a paper which is not worth reading at all.

    The BBC Licence fee will have to go up to pay for it.
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    It is utterly unbelievable. I thought cover-ups on behalf of rich and powerful criminals was a thing of the past, but it seems we are in the midst of them right now. It seems like the approach is to keep prosecution away just long enough for the perpetrator to die, at which point the government holds their hands up and says they are sorry for past mistakes.

    I still am in disbelief that both coalition parties voted against protecting whistle blowers in parliament. I am shocked it did not get more coverage in the press when it happened.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    £1.80 for a paper which is not worth reading at all.

    I think it's one of the papers you can get free in Waitrose, the Observer certainly is.

    All of them are. I don't know why anyone would bother buying a newspaper these days.

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    I think people are paying sufficient attention to all aspects of the DPP's announcement. My sympathy for the subject of the announcement is extremely limited.

    It has got nothing whatsoever to do with 'sympathy'. You have put your finger, unwittingly, on exactly what is wrong.
    I dont think you've made a good case for why leaving doubt about whether the complaints were credible or not would be a better option than making it clear that there was a case to answer but that he's managed to evade justice for just long enough to be unfit to face trial when the authorities finally got their act together.

    Your reference to him "evading justice" is assuming what would need to be proved - beyond reasonable doubt - at a trial. It is not him who has done anything to avoid a trial. It is the authorities who have failed in their duties. As there can now be no trial, he is an innocent man.

    The CPS's failure is a mistake on lots of levels: for Lord Janner and his family because he has not had a chance to clear himself of appalling allegations, given that he mantained his innocence and for those who have made the allegations who have been denied the benefits of a competent justice system.

    To my mind, having a well-funded and effective judicial system is at least as important as the NHS. Indeed, the justice system is an essential part of what the state should do - and do well. And yet it is on no-one's priority list. For the state to fail in defence, policing, justice, prisons is a huge, huge failing - and far far more important than some of the trivialities being talked about in this election.
    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1991/dec/02/child-abuse-leicestershire#S6CV0200P0_19911202_HOC_153
    Or perhaps this is rather more disturbing:

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1991/dec/03/contempt-of-court#S6CV0200P0_19911203_HOC_423

    I fully accept Greville Janner is innocent until proven guilty. What I would very much like to know is why he was not prosecuted 25 years ago given that there was a pretty damning allegation made against him which prima facie required full investigation by the police, so that this could be clearly established either way. That is something I hope there will be a formal enquiry to establish.
    There will be. A retired judge has been asked to look into what happened.

    Will "lessons be learnt"?

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    edited April 2015
    Alistair said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surgetastic...

    The Conservatives are “coming for the SNP and Labour” by focusing on voters who are repelled by Scotland’s “soggy, centre-Left consensus”, Ruth Davidson has said as she unveiled an election manifesto that promised to put taxpayers first.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11542364/Scottish-Tories-are-coming-for-the-SNP-and-Labour.html
    soggy centre-left? I thought the SNP were raving marxists taking the country to a commie-facist state.

    You don't have to be as far left as communism to drag a country into the economic doldrums. The centre-left did it just fine in the UK in the 1970s and in the 2000s.
  • rogerhrogerh Posts: 282
    HYUFD said:

    Roger Most cricketers and financiers are Tories, so not exactly that surprising, Boycott's UKIP

    What do think most golfers are?

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
  • ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    Proof if proof were needed of the law of diminishing returns.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    ICM should be included !

    Even if it is an outlier.

    Or they should try and exclude an outlier on the other side if one exists...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited April 2015

    Ignoring polls you don't like...

    dearie me - so much for neutrality - have they not heard of "gold standard" ?

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    Guess who is going to win the debate tommorow in the Express analysis xD
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Don't you worry, May2015 is nonpartisan and unbiased!
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    HYUFD said:

    'So why do you support UKIP?' asks Tristram Hunt to a primary school pupil, 'to get all the foreigners out' comes the reply
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3041824/Primary-school-pupil-leaves-Labour-shadow-minister-gob-smacked-saying-supported-Ukip-foreigners-out.html

    Why should he be surprised. This is what all the dog whistles from Farage have been about.
    I am sure all the UK citizens living abroad will be thrilled.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,415
    To be honest I'm quite glad one paper has come out for the Kippers after the lily livered "We like UKIP but don't vote for them her her" displays by the Mail and Telegraph.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Oh well, I had best get dinner on the go - spicy kebabs, peas and chunky chips.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    Guess who is going to win the debate tommorow in the Express analysis xD
    Actually, who wins the debate in the eyes of rest of the right-wing media will be very interesting. I suspect they'll go Cameron, or Sturgeon if they feel the need to stick within the 5.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Pulpstar said:

    To be honest I'm quite glad one paper has come out for the Kippers after the lily livered "We like UKIP but don't vote for them her her" displays by the Mail and Telegraph.

    and the Star!!
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    It just shows that UKIP are just like the other parties in terms of being beholden to the rich and powerful. If we're ever going to get political engagement back on its feet in this country we're going to have to start making politics about normal people again.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    Don't you worry, May2015 is nonpartisan and unbiased!
    The New Statesman supports the Tories as any fule no.......
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    Ydoethur

    "Why? I would not have said that 'being charming' and 'voting for a party not of the left' were mutually exclusive."

    I would have expected him to be Tory. It was the fact that he suggested he would most likely vote UKIP. He seemed far too respectable to admit to supporting a party which many of his clients would think of as racist
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    edited April 2015
    rogerh Well most US golfers are Republicans so I would not be surprised if they are Tories too

    On the whole most sportsmen are Tories (with the exception of footballers), most actors and musicians Labour

    Flightpath Certainly UKIP is trying to distance themselves
  • Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    £1.80 for a paper which is not worth reading at all.

    I think it's one of the papers you can get free in Waitrose, the Observer certainly is.

    The best part of £500 pa for a newspaper? No thanks.
    Eh? By my calculation, that works out at £750 per annum for a daily newspaper, incl the Observer on Sundays.
    Do they seriously think people are going to shell out that sort of money when there is so much free access to news on the internet, radio and television?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    Congratulations Gary Ballance, 103 not out, England's second century of the match.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    Pulpstar said:

    ICM should be included !

    Even if it is an outlier.

    Or they should try and exclude an outlier on the other side if one exists...
    ELBOW prides itself in including every single poll during a given week to calculate a weekly score, or a given calendar month to calculate a monthly score!

    Unbiased! Unprejudiced! Fair!
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    Result! Hopefully going to give the Establishment a real fright come May.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    edited April 2015

    Don't you worry, May2015 is nonpartisan and unbiased!
    The New Statesman supports the Tories as any fule no.......

    [after tying Donna to her bed at her request, Alan B'Stard accidentally leaves her bound for an extended period due to unavoidable circumstances]

    Donna Nightingale: Where have you been? Come on, talk to me will you? Have you got them - my pills? I really need them. I'm so wired!

    Alan B'Stard: [Alan checks his pockets] Wallet, passport, airline ticket.

    Donna Nightingale: Alan, you kinky son-of-a-bitch, you've got me chained up here at your mercy. Do what you want!

    Alan B'Stard: [chuckling evilly as he leaves Donna's apartment] Goodbye, Donna.

    Donna Nightingale: Now there's a man who really understands *bondage*.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    The Italians providing the law & order?

    What a frightening thought.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It is not him who has done anything to avoid a trial.

    He actually seems to have played a very active role in avoiding prosecution for these alleged crimes over the years.
    According to the CPS's own statement, they said that the reasons no trials were held on two previous occasions was because of their and the police's mistakes.

    I suspect that the answers he gave when interviewed also played a role.

    You suspect? Or do you know?
    Well how do you think he responded to the question "did you abuse this child"?
    I don't know. I imagine - since he's a lawyer - that he either said no or remained silent, as he's entitled to do. The police and CPS would likely have expected such answers so I doubt that these entirely expected answers were what tipped them into deciding they should not prosecute.

    However, we will have to see what the judge finds when he looks into this.

    Sometimes, you know, a person - even one accused of a horrible crime - says that they didn't do it because, err, they didn't do it. More recently there was that Coronation Street actor who was accused of similar crimes and who was found not guilty. And there have been miscarriages of justice in the past in relation to crimes of child abuse and murder.

    We need to be careful not to get into a situation where because crimes were overlooked in the past we assume that when someone is not prosecuted now that must be because, though guilty, there is some conspiracy to protect them. And that applies to everyone - however grand or lowly a person's station in life may be.



  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    £1.80 for a paper which is not worth reading at all.

    I think it's one of the papers you can get free in Waitrose, the Observer certainly is.

    The best part of £500 pa for a newspaper? No thanks.
    Eh? By my calculation, that works out at £750 per annum for a daily newspaper, incl the Observer on Sundays.
    Do they seriously think people are going to shell out that sort of money when there is so much free access to news on the internet, radio and television?
    Money is not an issue when it is paid for by the taxpayers. The Guardian is a daily staple for public sector workers.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    ''Oh well, I had best get dinner on the go - spicy kebabs, peas and chunky chips.''

    Blimey, a woman who still gets the dinner on....
  • FalseFlagFalseFlag Posts: 1,801
    edited April 2015
    HYUFD said:

    rogerh Well most US golfers are Republicans so I would not be surprised if they are Tories too

    On the whole most sportsmen are Tories (with the exception of footballers), most actors and musicians Labour

    Flightpath Certainly UKIP is trying to distance themselves

    In the US golf fans skew the most Republican followed by College Football and NASCAR.

    WNBA, NBA followed by pro wrestling fans are the most Democrat skewed.

    Baseball sits in the middle.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,655
    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    edited April 2015
    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    @MikeK

    Did you watch this programme last night?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05rcr7n/this-world-kill-the-christians
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Indeed, they could have funded their missing 24 candidates with £12k of it, giving the people of Glasgow South and Tyrone West a genuine choice.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    edited April 2015
    Sunil

    "ELBOW prides itself in including every single poll during a given week to calculate a weekly score, or a given calendar month to calculate a monthly score!"

    Point of order. Yesterday's PB Wisdom index was rather spoiled by two "look at me" posters answering "Tory 640". One was John Loony the other I don't remember but to answer like that surely distorts the accuracy of the poll?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Where would you find 20 good journalists? Or for that matter, hard workers at the Daily Star? (Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh on the photographic staff there...)
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited April 2015
    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Improving the quality of the Express's journalism doesn't strike me as a likely route to ermine.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    £1.80 for a paper which is not worth reading at all.

    I think it's one of the papers you can get free in Waitrose, the Observer certainly is.

    The best part of £500 pa for a newspaper? No thanks.
    Eh? By my calculation, that works out at £750 per annum for a daily newspaper, incl the Observer on Sundays.
    Do they seriously think people are going to shell out that sort of money when there is so much free access to news on the internet, radio and television?
    I assumed that after a week of reading The Grauniad, one would rather enjoy a day off from reading the collected thoughts of Toynbee et al and not bother with a Sunday rag.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Neil said:

    I think people are paying sufficient attention to all aspects of the DPP's announcement. My sympathy for the subject of the announcement is extremely limited.

    .

    Your reference to him "evading justice" is assuming what would need to be proved - beyond reasonable doubt - at a trial. It is not him who has done anything to avoid a trial. It is the authorities who have failed in their duties. As there can now be no trial, he is an innocent man.

    The CPS's failure is a mistake on lots of levels: for Lord Janner and his family because he has not had a chance to clear himself of appalling allegations, given that he mantained his innocence and for those who have made the allegations who have been denied the benefits of a competent justice system.

    To my mind, having a well-funded and effective judicial system is at least as important as the NHS. Indeed, the justice system is an essential part of what the state should do - and do well. And yet it is on no-one's priority list. For the state to fail in defence, policing, justice, prisons is a huge, huge failing - and far far more important than some of the trivialities being talked about in this election.
    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1991/dec/02/child-abuse-leicestershire#S6CV0200P0_19911202_HOC_153
    Or perhaps this is rather more disturbing:

    http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1991/dec/03/contempt-of-court#S6CV0200P0_19911203_HOC_423

    I fully accept Greville Janner is innocent until proven guilty. What I would very much like to know is why he was not prosecuted 25 years ago given that there was a pretty damning allegation made against him which prima facie required full investigation by the police, so that this could be clearly established either way. That is something I hope there will be a formal enquiry to establish.
    There will be. A retired judge has been asked to look into what happened.

    Will "lessons be learnt"?

    God knows. I don't have a particularly high opinion of the CPS based on my experience of them. What good prosecutors they have are leaving. Still, see what I posted below re the importance of a well funded and competent judicial system. Since no-one seems to care about this we'll continue to have one which cannot cope with the demands on it and we can then all happily spend time criticising them for being rubbish while spending public money on less important matters and worshipping the new state religion of the NHS.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769

    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Improving the quality of the Express's journalism doesn't strike me as a likely route to ermine.
    Giving money to UKIP at the moment appears to be the quickest and most certain way not to get it at all.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    Roger said:

    Sunil

    "ELBOW prides itself in including every single poll during a given week to calculate a weekly score, or a given calendar month to calculate a monthly score!"

    Point of order. Yesterday's PB Wisdom index was rather spoiled by two "look at me" posters answering "Tory 640". One was John Loony the other I don't remember but to answer like that surely distorts the accuracy of the poll?

    We exclude Wisdom Indexes as they are NOT proper VI polls! :)
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Roger said:

    Point of order. Yesterday's PB Wisdom index was rather spoiled by two "look at me" posters answering "Tory 640". One was John Loony the other I don't remember but to answer like that surely distorts the accuracy of the poll?

    Quite so - there's a few genuine errors in there too (with duplicates). Some of them will probably get cleaned up by the admins - you could of course re-calculate the "correct" averages yourself if it's that distressing ;)
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    ydoethur said:

    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Improving the quality of the Express's journalism doesn't strike me as a likely route to ermine.
    Giving money to UKIP at the moment appears to be the quickest and most certain way not to get it at all.
    What are the criteria for UKIP being allowed to nominate peer(s)?
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Perhaps he deliberately didn't want it all spent this election campaign, but to build the party longer term. Maybe he's only doing it before the election in the hope it will give them a PR boost.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    FalseFlag said:

    HYUFD said:

    'So why do you support UKIP?' asks Tristram Hunt to a primary school pupil, 'to get all the foreigners out' comes the reply
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3041824/Primary-school-pupil-leaves-Labour-shadow-minister-gob-smacked-saying-supported-Ukip-foreigners-out.html

    Thanks to Labour that will go on his record and he will be made to attend additional citizenship classes.
    Even primary school kids understand UKIP's policies.
    Nigel told us school kids were all brain washed by the EU ....

    Apparently not .... the kids are all Kippers - it must the fault of all those swivel eyed loony fruit cake right wing teachers of the NUT ....

    Who'd have thought it ?!?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    Looking at the latest numbers I begin to feel like an anti-Hodges, in that whatever I look at makes me think Labour are on course to win. I feel confident my unflinching view requires fewer major assumptions though - given even if we assume the MOE takes us to a virtual tie, and that the Tories are being understated in the polls, it still only puts them 4-5 up, which is at the limit of what they need.
    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Neil said:

    Cyclefree said:

    It is not him who has done anything to avoid a trial.

    He actually seems to have played a very active role in avoiding prosecution for these alleged crimes over the years.
    According to the CPS's own statement, they said that the reasons no trials were held on two previous occasions was because of their and the police's mistakes.

    I suspect that the answers he gave when interviewed also played a role.

    You suspect? Or do you know?
    Well how do you think he responded to the question "did you abuse this child"?
    We need to be careful not to get into a situation where because crimes were overlooked in the past we assume that when someone is not prosecuted now that must be because, though guilty, there is some conspiracy to protect them. And that applies to everyone - however grand or lowly a person's station in life may be.
    Hard for people to do, but true.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Improving the quality of the Express's journalism doesn't strike me as a likely route to ermine.
    Neither does giving it to UKIP! Wouldn't a donation to a mainstream party have been a better bet?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983
    Antifrank

    "Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?"

    So it's dog eat dog in the murky world of right-wing political journalism.

    I actually find the Express less dangerous than the Sunday Times. At least no one takes seriously the crap in the Express
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Improving the quality of the Express's journalism doesn't strike me as a likely route to ermine.
    Neither does giving it to UKIP! Wouldn't a donation to a mainstream party have been a better bet?
    I can't recall exactly, but I think he burned his bridges with the Tories some way back.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Meanwhile, in real news:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7032744e-e452-11e4-a4de-00144feab7de.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product&siteedition=uk#axzz3XUcSZRzF

    "Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, has dashed Greek hopes of receiving grace periods on loans it is due to repay next month, saying that precedents were “not followed by very productive results”.

    Yields on Greek bonds soared on Thursday following the news of the IMF’s stance".
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Noone cares about journalists. Their days are numbered so can get away with not giving them payrises.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/nick-cohen/2013/12/the-mumsnet-racketeers/
  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    These stories constantly coming out of the Med crossing are increasingly tragic. Perhaps we need to take a lesson from Australia. The Abbott government set up processing camps in the Malay archipelago (though I'm not sure if it was Indonesia or Papua New Guinea) and took all incoming asylum seekers they picked up there. It was condemned at the time but it entirely stopped the boats and undoubtedly saved lives. Maybe we could do something like that in North Africa?
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Cyclefree said:

    ydoethur said:

    marke09 said:

    The Guardian will be increasing its cover price from Saturday, 18 April 2015.

    The new cover price for the Guardian will be as follows:

    Saturday (from Saturday 18 April):

    UK: £2.70 (up 20p from £2.50)
    Eire: €2.90 (up £0.20 from €2.70)
    Channel Islands: £3.10 (up £0.20 from £2.90)

    Monday to Friday (from Monday 20 April):

    UK: £1.80 (up £0.20 from £1.60)
    Eire: €2.00 (up €0.20 from €1.80)
    Channel Islands: £2.20 (up £0.20 from £2.00)

    Please note that The Observer will not be increasing its cover price.

    Seems a lot. For that with addition of just 3p you can get an 18 pack of Asda own brand, which would last a lot longer.

    (OK, now I should come clean - in another sense - and admit not only do I read the Guardian, but I got my current job through an advert on its website.)
    £1,80 for a daily paper which you can largely read online??

    No wonder they're going bust.
    £1.80 for a paper which is not worth reading at all.

    I think it's one of the papers you can get free in Waitrose, the Observer certainly is.

    The best part of £500 pa for a newspaper? No thanks.
    Eh? By my calculation, that works out at £750 per annum for a daily newspaper, incl the Observer on Sundays.
    Do they seriously think people are going to shell out that sort of money when there is so much free access to news on the internet, radio and television?

    Especially as the “free access to news on the internet” is on the Guardian website itself.

    Not the best business model perhaps, but speaking personally, dear old Polly alone is worth every penny of that 3 quarters of a grand.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,769
    JEO said:

    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    These stories constantly coming out of the Med crossing are increasingly tragic. Perhaps we need to take a lesson from Australia. The Abbott government set up processing camps in the Malay archipelago (though I'm not sure if it was Indonesia or Papua New Guinea) and took all incoming asylum seekers they picked up there. It was condemned at the time but it entirely stopped the boats and undoubtedly saved lives. Maybe we could do something like that in North Africa?
    MAlaysia, Indonesia and even Papua New Guinea are considerably more stable than any North African country with the possible exception of Morocco. The camps would be immediate targets for militant groups seeking slaves/a quick triumph beamed to every TV in Europe.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,987
    Falseflag Indeed, I believe Nick Faldo was a Tory, for example
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    Roger said:

    Sunil

    "ELBOW prides itself in including every single poll during a given week to calculate a weekly score, or a given calendar month to calculate a monthly score!"

    Point of order. Yesterday's PB Wisdom index was rather spoiled by two "look at me" posters answering "Tory 640". One was John Loony the other I don't remember but to answer like that surely distorts the accuracy of the poll?

    It's not a poll it's a competiton with the entries published
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,044

    Roger said:

    Point of order. Yesterday's PB Wisdom index was rather spoiled by two "look at me" posters answering "Tory 640". One was John Loony the other I don't remember but to answer like that surely distorts the accuracy of the poll?

    Quite so - there's a few genuine errors in there too (with duplicates). Some of them will probably get cleaned up by the admins - you could of course re-calculate the "correct" averages yourself if it's that distressing ;)
    One would hope it was a clipped mean!
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    JEO said:

    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    These stories constantly coming out of the Med crossing are increasingly tragic. Perhaps we need to take a lesson from Australia. The Abbott government set up processing camps in the Malay archipelago (though I'm not sure if it was Indonesia or Papua New Guinea) and took all incoming asylum seekers they picked up there. It was condemned at the time but it entirely stopped the boats and undoubtedly saved lives. Maybe we could do something like that in North Africa?
    Aren't they trying to flee North Africa, though?

  • JEOJEO Posts: 3,656
    ydoethur said:

    JEO said:

    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    These stories constantly coming out of the Med crossing are increasingly tragic. Perhaps we need to take a lesson from Australia. The Abbott government set up processing camps in the Malay archipelago (though I'm not sure if it was Indonesia or Papua New Guinea) and took all incoming asylum seekers they picked up there. It was condemned at the time but it entirely stopped the boats and undoubtedly saved lives. Maybe we could do something like that in North Africa?
    MAlaysia, Indonesia and even Papua New Guinea are considerably more stable than any North African country with the possible exception of Morocco. The camps would be immediate targets for militant groups seeking slaves/a quick triumph beamed to every TV in Europe.
    I just found a "fragile states index" on Wikipedia, which lists Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia all as more stable than Papua New Guinea.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    edited April 2015
    antifrank said:

    Meanwhile, in real news:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7032744e-e452-11e4-a4de-00144feab7de.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product&siteedition=uk#axzz3XUcSZRzF

    "Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, has dashed Greek hopes of receiving grace periods on loans it is due to repay next month, saying that precedents were “not followed by very productive results”.

    Yields on Greek bonds soared on Thursday following the news of the IMF’s stance".

    Would this be before or after 7th May?

    Boo, it's the 12th.
  • In PB competition I accidentally saved before last 2 figures leaving Green and SNP as nilbut straight away changed to Green 1 and SNP 40. Could you please accept my entry as Green 1 SNP 40.
    Thanking you
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328
    MP_SE said:

    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Noone cares about journalists. Their days are numbered so can get away with not giving them payrises.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/nick-cohen/2013/12/the-mumsnet-racketeers/
    And if Labour get in and implement Leveson there won't be much of a press worth reading anyway. Pretty much all the stuff that's worth reading is on blogs these days.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    felix said:

    It may be an unpopular view, but I'm old-fashioned enough to believe strongly in the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Therefore, I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Lord Janner is effectively being named by the police and the CPS as being guilty in fact (but not in law) of very serious charges with no possibility of being able to defend himself. If they don't think that he should be charged with any crime, then they should issue a one-line statement saying that and saying nothing else.

    Spot on. Trial, and conviction by press, tv, Twitter and Facebook. Disgusting. It would be nice not to have it on here as well.
    Not so nice for the rich and famous nowadays , they cannot use the same old boys network , etc that kept them safe in the past. The social media gets past the cap doffers and exposes what once would have been kept amongst themselves. They do not like the peasants having this type of power.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    antifrank said:

    Meanwhile, in real news:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7032744e-e452-11e4-a4de-00144feab7de.html?ftcamp=published_links/rss/brussels/feed//product&siteedition=uk#axzz3XUcSZRzF

    "Christine Lagarde, head of the International Monetary Fund, has dashed Greek hopes of receiving grace periods on loans it is due to repay next month, saying that precedents were “not followed by very productive results”.

    Yields on Greek bonds soared on Thursday following the news of the IMF’s stance".

    William Hill have closed their Grexit markets http://tinyurl.com/m8n5v4h
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Pulpstar said:

    ICM should be included !

    Even if it is an outlier.

    Or they should try and exclude an outlier on the other side if one exists...
    But the point still stands. There's no real stark difference between the online pollsters and phone ones. And it wouldn't really make sense for there to be (the people who say the online respondents are more likely to be political junkies is a fair point, but there's no reason why Labour supporters would be more likely to be political junkies).
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    Scott_P said:

    Surgetastic...

    The Conservatives are “coming for the SNP and Labour” by focusing on voters who are repelled by Scotland’s “soggy, centre-Left consensus”, Ruth Davidson has said as she unveiled an election manifesto that promised to put taxpayers first.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11542364/Scottish-Tories-are-coming-for-the-SNP-and-Labour.html

    LOL, I got their drivel in post today , they could at least have used decent paper so it could have been of some use.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,500
    Cyclefree said:

    God knows. I don't have a particularly high opinion of the CPS based on my experience of them. What good prosecutors they have are leaving. Still, see what I posted below re the importance of a well funded and competent judicial system. Since no-one seems to care about this we'll continue to have one which cannot cope with the demands on it and we can then all happily spend time criticising them for being rubbish while spending public money on less important matters and worshipping the new state religion of the NHS.

    This is controversial, but I am more interested in the next generation than the past generation. We need to be teaching children about respect: that does not just apply to their elders ("you must respect us!"), but also to themselves ("You must not do that!")

    But we also need a system that is fair to both sides: misunderstandings and outright lies can lead to false accusations, and someone who is falsely accused can have their lives ruined as much as any victim.

    That is not to say we should no prosecute past crimes. Regular readers will know that a friend of mine committed suicide a couple of years ago, decades after the abuse he suffered (not in the UK). And the Nottingham scandal (sadly ignored on here) resonates with me for various indirect reasons. But prosecuting the undoubted criminals will be pointless if we allow the same crimes to continue in the future.

    And there has undoubtedly been (is?) a big problem in social care. We need to work out how to fix this, even if it requires a large amount of new money thrown at it.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surgetastic...

    The Conservatives are “coming for the SNP and Labour” by focusing on voters who are repelled by Scotland’s “soggy, centre-Left consensus”, Ruth Davidson has said as she unveiled an election manifesto that promised to put taxpayers first.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11542364/Scottish-Tories-are-coming-for-the-SNP-and-Labour.html
    LOL, I got their drivel in post today , they could at least have used decent paper so it could have been of some use.

    Which seat are you in?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    It may be an unpopular view, but I'm old-fashioned enough to believe strongly in the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Therefore, I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Lord Janner is effectively being named by the police and the CPS as being guilty in fact (but not in law) of very serious charges with no possibility of being able to defend himself. If they don't think that he should be charged with any crime, then they should issue a one-line statement saying that and saying nothing else.

    Spot on. Trial, and conviction by press, tv, Twitter and Facebook. Disgusting. It would be nice not to have it on here as well.
    Not so nice for the rich and famous nowadays , they cannot use the same old boys network , etc that kept them safe in the past. The social media gets past the cap doffers and exposes what once would have been kept amongst themselves. They do not like the peasants having this type of power.
    Get a grip, Malcolm. The CPS makes decisions based upon practicality. Same as in plenty of rape cases (or non-cases). It is the likelihood of conviction, not the likelihood of guilt or innocence.

    As you well know, of course.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,983


    "It's like applying for a job and not turning up for the interview."

    Ed's getting smarter by the day
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,869

    antifrank said:

    rcs1000 said:

    He left that a bit late. It would have been a bit more helpful if he'd done it about three months ago. Is the UKIP campaign even set up to spend the money in the next three weeks?
    Not everyone is happy:

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 5m5 minutes ago
    Wouldn't £1m have been better spent on 20 good journalists?

    Tim Shipman ‏@ShippersUnbound · 24s25 seconds ago
    £1m could also have gone on a bonus for all the hard working people at the Express and the Star.

    Will no one think of the poor hacks?
    Improving the quality of the Express's journalism doesn't strike me as a likely route to ermine.
    Neither does giving it to UKIP! Wouldn't a donation to a mainstream party have been a better bet?
    I think Dirty Desmond is quite principled actually. You are quite right, there are a million better ways to preferment for a Newspaper proprietor than supporting UKIP. Yet he does.


  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    As a sign of how divorced the pb commentariat are from the rest of the country, I was just talking with one of my more senior partners (very switched on, very broad hinterland beyond her job) and mentioned in passing that there was another debate tonight.

    "Is there?", she said.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505

    Scott_P said:

    Surgetastic...

    The Conservatives are “coming for the SNP and Labour” by focusing on voters who are repelled by Scotland’s “soggy, centre-Left consensus”, Ruth Davidson has said as she unveiled an election manifesto that promised to put taxpayers first.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11542364/Scottish-Tories-are-coming-for-the-SNP-and-Labour.html
    I like Ruth. Very feisty; might give Dave a bit of backbone.




    LOL, Tories are easy pleased , she is a duffer like the rest of them
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173
    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    It may be an unpopular view, but I'm old-fashioned enough to believe strongly in the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Therefore, I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Lord Janner is effectively being named by the police and the CPS as being guilty in fact (but not in law) of very serious charges with no possibility of being able to defend himself. If they don't think that he should be charged with any crime, then they should issue a one-line statement saying that and saying nothing else.

    Spot on. Trial, and conviction by press, tv, Twitter and Facebook. Disgusting. It would be nice not to have it on here as well.
    Not so nice for the rich and famous nowadays , they cannot use the same old boys network , etc that kept them safe in the past. The social media gets past the cap doffers and exposes what once would have been kept amongst themselves. They do not like the peasants having this type of power.
    Occasionally you're funny and thick - not funny this time..
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,149
    antifrank said:

    As a sign of how divorced the pb commentariat are from the rest of the country, I was just talking with one of my more senior partners (very switched on, very broad hinterland beyond her job) and mentioned in passing that there was another debate tonight.

    "Is there?", she said.

    It doesn't count cos Dave refused to turn up!
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Roger said:



    "It's like applying for a job and not turning up for the interview."

    Ed's getting smarter by the day

    He's started from a low base.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    antifrank said:

    As a sign of how divorced the pb commentariat are from the rest of the country, I was just talking with one of my more senior partners (very switched on, very broad hinterland beyond her job) and mentioned in passing that there was another debate tonight.

    "Is there?", she said.

    Amazing. I meanwhile was approached by two people about the debate tonight, 2 more than usually talk about politics with me (as virtually no-one at my work talked about politics before the election), and another registered to vote after watching the first debate. What does it all mean? Nothing (another did not know what MP stood for). Probably fewer people will watch than the other debate, which itself was not watched by most people, but it's still more than most people would normally pay attention to politics. That's one reason it was worth it for the parties to agree to it in the first place.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    edited April 2015

    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    @MikeK

    Did you watch this programme last night?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05rcr7n/this-world-kill-the-christians
    Hi Sunil. No I didn't see it, but I knew about it from my friends in Israel, where Christians are now being protected from Muslim barbarism by Jews. The wheel turning full circle in this instance.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,328

    Cyclefree said:

    God knows. I don't have a particularly high opinion of the CPS based on my experience of them. What good prosecutors they have are leaving. Still, see what I posted below re the importance of a well funded and competent judicial system. Since no-one seems to care about this we'll continue to have one which cannot cope with the demands on it and we can then all happily spend time criticising them for being rubbish while spending public money on less important matters and worshipping the new state religion of the NHS.

    This is controversial, but I am more interested in the next generation than the past generation. We need to be teaching children about respect: that does not just apply to their elders ("you must respect us!"), but also to themselves ("You must not do that!")

    But we also need a system that is fair to both sides: misunderstandings and outright lies can lead to false accusations, and someone who is falsely accused can have their lives ruined as much as any victim.

    That is not to say we should no prosecute past crimes. Regular readers will know that a friend of mine committed suicide a couple of years ago, decades after the abuse he suffered (not in the UK). And the Nottingham scandal (sadly ignored on here) resonates with me for various indirect reasons. But prosecuting the undoubted criminals will be pointless if we allow the same crimes to continue in the future.

    And there has undoubtedly been (is?) a big problem in social care. We need to work out how to fix this, even if it requires a large amount of new money thrown at it.
    Agree with that. If we want a decent social care system for those children who do not have adequate families of their own then we need to think hard and intelligently about how best to do it and spend good money on such a system. Looking after children well takes time and effort and does not come cheap.

    It seems to me sometimes that we have a very high level of outrage about child abuse and a mob mentality against those either accused of or found guilty of these crimes but lack the concomitant necessary will and effort actually to care for our children properly. These should be reversed. The same could be said about our approach to care of the elderly, the disabled or the mentally ill. Lots of outrage about films showing them being abused in homes but a huge unwillingness to spend the time, money and effort needed to make sure such things don't happen.

    Caring for others is expensive - in every sense. It's about time we realised it.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    Cyclefree said:

    JEO said:

    MikeK said:

    w.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32337725

    Migrants killed in 'religious clash' on Mediterranean boat.

    Italian police say they have arrested 15 Muslim migrants after they allegedly threw 12 Christians overboard following a row on a boat heading to Italy.
    The Christian migrants, said to be from Ghana and Nigeria, are all feared dead.

    The future of Europe in a nutshell

    These stories constantly coming out of the Med crossing are increasingly tragic. Perhaps we need to take a lesson from Australia. The Abbott government set up processing camps in the Malay archipelago (though I'm not sure if it was Indonesia or Papua New Guinea) and took all incoming asylum seekers they picked up there. It was condemned at the time but it entirely stopped the boats and undoubtedly saved lives. Maybe we could do something like that in North Africa?
    Aren't they trying to flee North Africa, though?

    Exactly , drive them straight back
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,049
    edited April 2015
    Roger said:



    "It's like applying for a job and not turning up for the interview."

    Ed's getting smarter by the day

    It's a great soundbite but there is nothing to gain by being there for Dave and the downside for Ed is high. Without Dave there he is outnumbered by those on his left and those who seek to be disruptive (from a political, anti-establishment perspective).

    He will seem like the establishment and I'm not sure that is a look he should be keen on.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    antifrank said:

    As a sign of how divorced the pb commentariat are from the rest of the country, I was just talking with one of my more senior partners (very switched on, very broad hinterland beyond her job) and mentioned in passing that there was another debate tonight.

    "Is there?", she said.

    It doesn't count cos Dave refused to turn up!
    Don't say he was scared of defending his record though.. "scared" is on the PBPC naughty list regardless of it's context
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    felix said:

    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    It may be an unpopular view, but I'm old-fashioned enough to believe strongly in the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Therefore, I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Lord Janner is effectively being named by the police and the CPS as being guilty in fact (but not in law) of very serious charges with no possibility of being able to defend himself. If they don't think that he should be charged with any crime, then they should issue a one-line statement saying that and saying nothing else.

    Spot on. Trial, and conviction by press, tv, Twitter and Facebook. Disgusting. It would be nice not to have it on here as well.
    Not so nice for the rich and famous nowadays , they cannot use the same old boys network , etc that kept them safe in the past. The social media gets past the cap doffers and exposes what once would have been kept amongst themselves. They do not like the peasants having this type of power.
    Occasionally you're funny and thick - not funny this time..
    That from a cretinous half witted numpty. Touch a nerve old boy, you worried you will be in the queue.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    JEO said:

    It just shows that UKIP are just like the other parties in terms of being beholden to the rich and powerful. If we're ever going to get political engagement back on its feet in this country we're going to have to start making politics about normal people again.
    UKIP are not beholden to anyone, other than it's members.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    Surgetastic...

    The Conservatives are “coming for the SNP and Labour” by focusing on voters who are repelled by Scotland’s “soggy, centre-Left consensus”, Ruth Davidson has said as she unveiled an election manifesto that promised to put taxpayers first.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/11542364/Scottish-Tories-are-coming-for-the-SNP-and-Labour.html
    I like Ruth. Very feisty; might give Dave a bit of backbone.


    LOL, Tories are easy pleased , she is a duffer like the rest of them

    I am a LibDem; but no matter.

    I quite like my politicians to be forthright.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,591
    isam said:

    antifrank said:

    As a sign of how divorced the pb commentariat are from the rest of the country, I was just talking with one of my more senior partners (very switched on, very broad hinterland beyond her job) and mentioned in passing that there was another debate tonight.

    "Is there?", she said.

    It doesn't count cos Dave refused to turn up!
    Don't say he was scared of defending his record though.. "scared" is on the PBPC naughty list regardless of it's context
    Cameron is fine with defending his record, just not when other people can interrupt his train of thought. It's upsetting to him.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,505
    TOPPING said:

    malcolmg said:

    felix said:

    It may be an unpopular view, but I'm old-fashioned enough to believe strongly in the principle of innocence until proven guilty. Therefore, I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Lord Janner is effectively being named by the police and the CPS as being guilty in fact (but not in law) of very serious charges with no possibility of being able to defend himself. If they don't think that he should be charged with any crime, then they should issue a one-line statement saying that and saying nothing else.

    Spot on. Trial, and conviction by press, tv, Twitter and Facebook. Disgusting. It would be nice not to have it on here as well.
    Not so nice for the rich and famous nowadays , they cannot use the same old boys network , etc that kept them safe in the past. The social media gets past the cap doffers and exposes what once would have been kept amongst themselves. They do not like the peasants having this type of power.
    Get a grip, Malcolm. The CPS makes decisions based upon practicality. Same as in plenty of rape cases (or non-cases). It is the likelihood of conviction, not the likelihood of guilt or innocence.

    As you well know, of course.
    So why are we having so many enquiries on cover ups , scandals etc. They are not looking for benefit dodgers for them, all have been establishment and aided and abetted by authorities of all kinds from parliament downwards. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg as well I bet.
This discussion has been closed.