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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So far the evidence that there’ll be a lot of tactical voti

SystemSystem Posts: 12,215
edited February 2015 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So far the evidence that there’ll be a lot of tactical voting isn’t great but ground campaigning has yet to build up

It’s a term that we hear all the time. Because have first past the post the only way that those not supporting the two parties perceived to be on top locally can use their vote effectively is by switching to one that is in contention in order to stop another party.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • First ..... again!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,514
    Is Labour's sense of entitlement any worse than the conservatives ?
  • 'the LDs will use tried and tested means to try to hold on to what they have got.'


    Dodgy bar charts ?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    I keep hearing about this notion of the Consevatives having a sense of entitlement to votes. It is bullshit. We know we are the party of hard choices. The dentists who have to pull the teeth when Labour has been irresponsible with the sweeties. We have to work a hell of a lot harder to get people to come out and vote for that. We get villified the most, get the most abuse on the doorstep, have to fight hardest to make the case to vote for us. Have to be for something, not part of the brigade who just suck air through their teeth and say "I wouldn't do that..." without making any cogent case for what they would actually do themselves.

    To say we Tories expect the votes to be there just because the world spins is risible.

    But I take some comfort that these stats show people vote FOR us in far greater measure than any of the other parties. It shows we are making a case for their votes. And on the day, people are more likely to actually get off their arses to vote for something.
  • Is Labour's sense of entitlement any worse than the conservatives ?

    Yes - look at the two parties approaches to coalition negotiation in 2010......
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited February 2015
    I suspect expectations of wide scale tactical voting are wishful thinking - those who don't think their own team will win are much more likely to either vote for them anyway "to send a message" or not vote at all. I don't think the Blair analogy applies - there was an upswell that after nearly two decades it was time to "chuck the incompetent infighting buggers out". Apart from tribalists I suspect the current government will still get "the benefit of the doubt".
  • I suspect there will be a lot less tactical voting than last time. People are just fed up with the main parties and will vote for who they want to vote for. Hence SNP, UKIP and Green on the rise.
  • Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de
  • Questionable economics but excellent politics - pick the bones out of this, Ed:

    Nicola Sturgeon attacks 'Westminster austerity economics'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31377373
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015

    Questionable economics but excellent politics - pick the bones out of this, Ed:

    Nicola Sturgeon attacks 'Westminster austerity economics'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31377373

    At the same time as someone at ConHome floats CON-SNP

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2015/02/iain-anderson-a-conservative-snp-deal-may-be-the-only-option-for-both-parties.html
  • So, you've seriously contemplating voting Labour, Mike?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de

    You mean like Tories have become more dependent on hedge funds. Except the Union funds are legitimate funds from tax paying members, whereas hedge funds.............

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015
    Greece:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11404160/Greece-threatens-tilt-to-Russia-and-China-unless-Europe-yields.html
    "We want a deal. But if there is no deal, and if we see that Germany remains rigid and wants to blow Europe apart, then we will have to go to Plan B,” said Panos Kammenos, the defence minister and head of the Independent Greeks party in the ruling coalition.

    “We have other ways of finding money. It could be the United States at best, it could be Russia, it could be China or other countries,” he told Greek television. Mr Kammenos said Greece would prefer to leave the euro if membership means submitting to what he calls a “Europe under German domination.
    Fun for all the family.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    edited February 2015
    surbiton said:

    Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de

    You mean like Tories have become more dependent on hedge funds. Except the Union funds are legitimate funds from tax paying members, whereas hedge funds.............

    Are investment operations which invest billions of pounds in British business, and pay for quite a large chunk of the sweeties that Labour wants to throw more money at. Drive them offshore and see what happens to the NHS.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Many in the yellow bit of the UKIP bar are ex Labour voters. They are not necessarily a kipper now for ideological reasons but, push come to a shove, they will not want a Tory elected as their MP.
  • Indigo said:

    Questionable economics but excellent politics - pick the bones out of this, Ed:

    Nicola Sturgeon attacks 'Westminster austerity economics'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31377373

    At the same time as someone at ConHome floats CON-SNP

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2015/02/iain-anderson-a-conservative-snp-deal-may-be-the-only-option-for-both-parties.html
    If Sturgeon's "end austerity economics" would be a very difficult pill for Ed to swallow it would be completely impossible for the Tories.....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited February 2015
    surbiton said:

    Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de

    You mean like Tories have become more dependent on hedge funds

    But the Tories didn't set out to become. less dependent on one source, unlike Ed - who has become more dependent on unions because business donations to Labour have fallen away......

  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Indigo said:

    Questionable economics but excellent politics - pick the bones out of this, Ed:

    Nicola Sturgeon attacks 'Westminster austerity economics'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31377373

    At the same time as someone at ConHome floats CON-SNP

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2015/02/iain-anderson-a-conservative-snp-deal-may-be-the-only-option-for-both-parties.html
    If Sturgeon's "end austerity economics" would be a very difficult pill for Ed to swallow it would be completely impossible for the Tories.....
    Indeed. But if as is proposed the quid pro quo is full fiscal autonomy for Scotland the SNP wont give a toss about austerity economics in the rest of the UK, it wont be their problem.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de

    You mean like Tories have become more dependent on hedge funds. Except the Union funds are legitimate funds from tax paying members, whereas hedge funds.............

    Are investment operations which invest billions of pounds in British business, and pay for quite a large chunk of the sweeties that Labour wants to throw more money at. Drive them offshore and see what happens to the NHS.
    Heard that bilge before !
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de

    You mean like Tories have become more dependent on hedge funds. Except the Union funds are legitimate funds from tax paying members, whereas hedge funds.............

    Are investment operations which invest billions of pounds in British business, and pay for quite a large chunk of the sweeties that Labour wants to throw more money at. Drive them offshore and see what happens to the NHS.
    Heard that bilge before !
    Where you do think the money comes from ? off trees ?

  • Indigo said:

    Indigo said:

    Questionable economics but excellent politics - pick the bones out of this, Ed:

    Nicola Sturgeon attacks 'Westminster austerity economics'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-31377373

    At the same time as someone at ConHome floats CON-SNP

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2015/02/iain-anderson-a-conservative-snp-deal-may-be-the-only-option-for-both-parties.html
    If Sturgeon's "end austerity economics" would be a very difficult pill for Ed to swallow it would be completely impossible for the Tories.....
    Indeed. But if as is proposed the quid pro quo is full fiscal autonomy for Scotland the SNP wont give a toss about austerity economics in the rest of the UK, it wont be their problem.
    I doubt that would happen with the Tories either. How would "full fiscal autonomy" work? Scottish bonds? Scottish interest rates?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,020
    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed.

    Given the collapse of the Lib Dems I am not sure that their former supporters voting for someone else can be regarded as tactical.

    Tory voters have consistently been more resistant to tactical voting and the thread header suggests that is still true. It is possible, I put it no higher, that some will vote tactically in Scotland for a Unionist most likely to win. I very much hope that happens in Inverness for example but Danny would not be wise to count on it.

    Generally, I think that we have seen in our politics a similar phenomenon to what we have seen in Greece recently and elsewhere. People are fed up of austerity and hard choices. They want some magic wand waving and simplistic solutions. They are open to voting for those offering them whether they have a chance or not. I see a fragmentation of our votes reflecting this frustration and impatience.

    Still thinking about voting tactically in Dundee West though.

  • "I was part of the sample for this Opinium poll"

    Is this normal for pple interested in politics to be part of the polling panels? Doesn't that have skew the results? Not thinking so much of weighting 'cos they should have that nailed out but the turnout and likelihood to vote?

    Cutting from questions here's my statement about it: we need to pay more attention to certainty to vote polling results.
  • DavidL said:

    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed.

    Given the collapse of the Lib Dems I am not sure that their former supporters voting for someone else can be regarded as tactical.

    Tory voters have consistently been more resistant to tactical voting and the thread header suggests that is still true. It is possible, I put it no higher, that some will vote tactically in Scotland for a Unionist most likely to win. I very much hope that happens in Inverness for example but Danny would not be wise to count on it.

    Generally, I think that we have seen in our politics a similar phenomenon to what we have seen in Greece recently and elsewhere. People are fed up of austerity and hard choices. They want some magic wand waving and simplistic solutions. They are open to voting for those offering them whether they have a chance or not. I see a fragmentation of our votes reflecting this frustration and impatience.

    Still thinking about voting tactically in Dundee West though.

    Austerity is itself a simplistic solution.
  • I suspect there will be a lot less tactical voting than last time. People are just fed up with the main parties and will vote for who they want to vote for. Hence SNP, UKIP and Green on the rise.

    In what way aren't the Scottish National Party a main party in Scotland? Explain.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,173

    "I was part of the sample for this Opinium poll"

    Is this normal for pple interested in politics to be part of the polling panels? Doesn't that have skew the results? Not thinking so much of weighting 'cos they should have that nailed out but the turnout and likelihood to vote?

    Cutting from questions here's my statement about it: we need to pay more attention to certainty to vote polling results.

    Despite all their efforts to remove problems I've always had my doubts about self-selecting polls and their susceptibility to be packed with 'anoraks' - especially die-hard party supporters. Indeed I've always assumed that the parties encourage their supporters to register. Maybe it all cancels out in the wash. Either way I know lots of normal people who'd never dream of registering for an on-line political poll let alone spend 10-15 minutes filling one out.
  • felix said:

    "I was part of the sample for this Opinium poll"

    Is this normal for pple interested in politics to be part of the polling panels? Doesn't that have skew the results? Not thinking so much of weighting 'cos they should have that nailed out but the turnout and likelihood to vote?

    Cutting from questions here's my statement about it: we need to pay more attention to certainty to vote polling results.

    Despite all their efforts to remove problems I've always had my doubts about self-selecting polls and their susceptibility to be packed with 'anoraks' - especially die-hard party supporters. Indeed I've always assumed that the parties encourage their supporters to register. Maybe it all cancels out in the wash. Either way I know lots of normal people who'd never dream of registering for an on-line political poll let alone spend 10-15 minutes filling one out.
    I'm with you on this. Bit of a wakeup call for me today on which polls to look at for betting purposes.

    Can someone do me a favour? Could you list which polling firms / regular polls are using self-selects and which ones aren't? Would be masshooootly appreciated.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de

    You mean like Tories have become more dependent on hedge funds. Except the Union funds are legitimate funds from tax paying members, whereas hedge funds.............

    Are investment operations which invest billions of pounds in British business, and pay for quite a large chunk of the sweeties that Labour wants to throw more money at. Drive them offshore and see what happens to the NHS.
    Heard that bilge before !
    The super-rich between them pay for the NHS.

    I say milk them for a better NHS (45% top tax rates now versus 40% during 13 years bar a month of Labour).

    You say drive them abroad - to create an NHS funding crisis.

    Why do the Left want to kill the NHS?
  • felix said:

    "I was part of the sample for this Opinium poll"

    Is this normal for pple interested in politics to be part of the polling panels? Doesn't that have skew the results? Not thinking so much of weighting 'cos they should have that nailed out but the turnout and likelihood to vote?

    Cutting from questions here's my statement about it: we need to pay more attention to certainty to vote polling results.

    Despite all their efforts to remove problems I've always had my doubts about self-selecting polls and their susceptibility to be packed with 'anoraks' - especially die-hard party supporters. Indeed I've always assumed that the parties encourage their supporters to register. Maybe it all cancels out in the wash. Either way I know lots of normal people who'd never dream of registering for an on-line political poll let alone spend 10-15 minutes filling one out.
    I'm registered with YouGov - maybe one in twenty polls is political......
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7
  • Nicola Sturgeon on R4 giving a pretty good account of herself.....personally don't buy it, but persuasive none the less....
  • I suspect there will be a lot less tactical voting than last time. People are just fed up with the main parties and will vote for who they want to vote for. Hence SNP, UKIP and Green on the rise.

    In what way aren't the Scottish National Party a main party in Scotland? Explain.
    They are a minor party in Westminster elections, to date anyway.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @DPJHodges: On this day in 1975 the Tories elected a woman leader. 40 years on Labour's women go off in a pink van to talk to "around the kichen table".
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    DavidL said:

    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed.

    Given the collapse of the Lib Dems I am not sure that their former supporters voting for someone else can be regarded as tactical.

    Tory voters have consistently been more resistant to tactical voting and the thread header suggests that is still true. It is possible, I put it no higher, that some will vote tactically in Scotland for a Unionist most likely to win. I very much hope that happens in Inverness for example but Danny would not be wise to count on it.

    Generally, I think that we have seen in our politics a similar phenomenon to what we have seen in Greece recently and elsewhere. People are fed up of austerity and hard choices. They want some magic wand waving and simplistic solutions. They are open to voting for those offering them whether they have a chance or not. I see a fragmentation of our votes reflecting this frustration and impatience.

    Still thinking about voting tactically in Dundee West though.

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Maybe Labour could set up a fleet of Pink Persuaders in Rotherham, so that the young girls of the town can be taken home safely, rather than have to grab a cab off the Rapist Rank.

    Maybe the local council could organise it. Ah, I'm seeing a problem with that already.....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    The SNP won't work with the Conservatives.

    Con's potential partners are either DUP + UKIP or the Lib Dems, probably not all 3.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    surbiton said:

    Ed has become more dependent on Union donations:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/05870dfa-b129-11e4-9331-00144feab7de

    You mean like Tories have become more dependent on hedge funds. Except the Union funds are legitimate funds from tax paying members, whereas hedge funds.............

    Define what a hedge fund is. You seem very sure.
  • Nooooo!

    Flower of Scotland is a dreadful sentimental dirge - even worse than GSTQ!

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NaAnSco

    Scotland the Brave!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Claire_Phipps: Jon Stewart to leave The Daily Show after surprise announcement http://t.co/Qr9fjivcbr

    Maybe he has a 6 month gig at NBC...
  • Nooooo!

    Flower of Scotland is a dreadful sentimental dirge - even worse than GSTQ!

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NaAnSco

    Scotland the Brave!

    I went out with a Scot for many years. He told me in all seriousness that Flower Of Scotland was the most beautiful song that he had ever heard.
  • felix said:

    "I was part of the sample for this Opinium poll"

    Is this normal for pple interested in politics to be part of the polling panels? Doesn't that have skew the results? Not thinking so much of weighting 'cos they should have that nailed out but the turnout and likelihood to vote?

    Cutting from questions here's my statement about it: we need to pay more attention to certainty to vote polling results.

    Despite all their efforts to remove problems I've always had my doubts about self-selecting polls and their susceptibility to be packed with 'anoraks' - especially die-hard party supporters. Indeed I've always assumed that the parties encourage their supporters to register. Maybe it all cancels out in the wash. Either way I know lots of normal people who'd never dream of registering for an on-line political poll let alone spend 10-15 minutes filling one out.
    I'm with you on this. Bit of a wakeup call for me today on which polls to look at for betting purposes.

    Can someone do me a favour? Could you list which polling firms / regular polls are using self-selects and which ones aren't? Would be masshooootly appreciated.
    It depends what you mean by self-selects. The online pollsters use people who have registered, although as @CarlottaVance says, most polls are non-political market research. Now, there is the problem that parties will have encouraged their members to register, and perhaps given a nod-and-a-wink to lie about which newspapers they read. Another issue is that the online population might just be different, although this is probably less true than it used to be, but we should remember Ron Paul's online surge. And of course, all polls, even face-to-face ones, are of people who have consented to answer questions when a clipboard is stuck under their nose.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Pulpstar said:

    The SNP won't work with the Conservatives.

    Con's potential partners are either DUP + UKIP or the Lib Dems, probably not all 3.

    The SNP are idiots for ruling out working with the Tories if the Tories win the auction for who will best bribe the Scots for SNP votes in Westminster.

    However, Labour can't point this out, for fear of how it would play in Scotland - admitting that the SNP might just deliver a better deal for the Scots than they can.

    And the Tories can't, for fear of how bribing the Scots would play in England.
  • Nooooo!

    Flower of Scotland is a dreadful sentimental dirge - even worse than GSTQ!

    https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/NaAnSco

    Scotland the Brave!

    Is that supposed to be an official poll? Anyone could go on SurveyMonkey and purport to be the Scottish FA asking if Paul Gascoigne scored the greatest goal ever.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    A completely different economic strategy and an unfeasible demand to move trident. Not the best of starting points for negotiations, it's almost as if the SNP don't actually want to do a deal with Labour..
  • The three plod forces which have been taking the names of Charlie Hebdo readers all have Conservative PCCs.

    Can we look forward to some action being taken ?

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/feb/10/police-several-forces-seek-details-charlie-hebdo-readers

  • Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    Most Muslims would agree. FGM is practised in parts of Africa but is not a mainstream Islamic thing.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    It's not a good advert for opinion polls if Mr Smithson says he gave a misleading answer.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    Labour have clearly got Barbara Cartland's vote, but being laughed at surely cannot be good politics.
  • Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    Labour have clearly got Barbara Cartland's vote, but being laughed at surely cannot be good politics.
    You are right, except that Tories must be careful not to be seen as laughing or sneering at women in general, especially now they have the vote.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    edited February 2015

    What strikes me about the above polling from Opinium is that at this stage not many voters are telling the pollsters that they will make a switch to block a party they don’t want to win.

    9% of current Liberal Democrat voters saying that this is a vote against another party might not sound like very much, but the problem here is that the figures are nationwide.

    Tactical voting for the Liberal Democrats in order to stop the Tories is only going to be a temptation in the Lib-Con and Con-Lib seats. That 9% nationwide could be 20%, 30%, 40% or more in the relevant seats (if we assume that the Lib Dems do not receive any tactical votes from Tories seeking to stop Labour).

    The whole point of tactical voting is that it is changing your vote in reaction to the local circumstances. Thus you can't understand it by looking at national poll results. The poll results are useless without being broken down by seat type.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966

    Pulpstar said:

    The SNP won't work with the Conservatives.

    Con's potential partners are either DUP + UKIP or the Lib Dems, probably not all 3.

    The SNP are idiots for ruling out working with the Tories if the Tories win the auction for who will best bribe the Scots for SNP votes in Westminster.

    However, Labour can't point this out, for fear of how it would play in Scotland - admitting that the SNP might just deliver a better deal for the Scots than they can.

    And the Tories can't, for fear of how bribing the Scots would play in England.
    Pfft, if the right bribeoffer is on the table I am sure a whole load of wriggle room will be found in that statement, it will suddenly be remembered as a "comment" not a "promise", the use of "no ifs, no buts" will be denied outright, and suggestion in the party literature that they could be kicked out after 5 years if they did a deal would be waved away. Got carried away there for a second! I am sure a deal will be done that skirts around those little inconveniences if the offer is good enough. If Cameron offers the SNP the moon on the stick, the SNP will have a hard time telling their followers that they turned it down because it came from the nasty Tories.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,893
    Nick Robinson ‏@bbcnickrobinson
    BREAKING SNP would back £180 bn more spending than Coalition by 2020 (cf NHS England total budget £100bn) @NicolaSturgeon to say later.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    The Tories and SNP would reach an accord on EV4EL and Devo-max that would be mutually beneficial.

    Welsh Labour would possibly want the same.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    OT

    Tonight BBC3 9pm.

    Programme titled, "An Idiots Guide to Politics."

    "Why the Facebook generation is so disengaged from politics. With the general election just around the corner, according to a recent survey less than a quarter of under-25s plan to vote. Is this just apathy and ignorance? Or is something else going on?"
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    chestnut said:

    The Tories and SNP would reach an accord on EV4EL and Devo-max that would be mutually beneficial.

    Welsh Labour would possibly want the same.

    Indeed. Can you seriously see Sturgeon going back to her national executive and saying that she had a offer of Devomax from the Tories, but turned them down because they are the nasty Tories, and took a vastly inferior offer from Labour because they were the cuddly nice party, especially considering the current cordial relations between (S)LAB and the SNP.
  • Artist said:

    Nick Robinson ‏@bbcnickrobinson
    BREAKING SNP would back £180 bn more spending than Coalition by 2020 (cf NHS England total budget £100bn) @NicolaSturgeon to say later.

    This could turn into an interesting Dutch auction!
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited February 2015

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
  • Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed.

    Given the collapse of the Lib Dems I am not sure that their former supporters voting for someone else can be regarded as tactical.

    Tory voters have consistently been more resistant to tactical voting and the thread header suggests that is still true. It is possible, I put it no higher, that some will vote tactically in Scotland for a Unionist most likely to win. I very much hope that happens in Inverness for example but Danny would not be wise to count on it.

    Generally, I think that we have seen in our politics a similar phenomenon to what we have seen in Greece recently and elsewhere. People are fed up of austerity and hard choices. They want some magic wand waving and simplistic solutions. They are open to voting for those offering them whether they have a chance or not. I see a fragmentation of our votes reflecting this frustration and impatience.

    Still thinking about voting tactically in Dundee West though.

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.
    It seems to me that the reason we have it is the last Labour government tried to fund Scandanavian levels of public services on anglosphere levels of taxation, borrowing to make up the difference.

    I suppose there's an argument we could sustain higher tax revenues and spending with less globalisation, as we'd face less international competition, but I think that's a bit of a chimera.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Indigo said:

    chestnut said:

    The Tories and SNP would reach an accord on EV4EL and Devo-max that would be mutually beneficial.

    Welsh Labour would possibly want the same.

    Indeed. Can you seriously see Sturgeon going back to her national executive and saying that she had a offer of Devomax from the Tories, but turned them down because they are the nasty Tories, and took a vastly inferior offer from Labour because they were the cuddly nice party, especially considering the current cordial relations between (S)LAB and the SNP.
    Any truck with the Tories and she is toast !
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Mr_Eugenides: #PinkBus is trending nationwide. Once again Labour taps into the zeitgeist in a way other parties can only dream of.
  • Scott_P said:

    @Mr_Eugenides: #PinkBus is trending nationwide. Once again Labour taps into the zeitgeist in a way other parties can only dream of.

    Labour must be looking at the receipts for its expensive American political consultants, and wondering if it can get a refund.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    edited February 2015
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    chestnut said:

    The Tories and SNP would reach an accord on EV4EL and Devo-max that would be mutually beneficial.

    Welsh Labour would possibly want the same.

    Indeed. Can you seriously see Sturgeon going back to her national executive and saying that she had a offer of Devomax from the Tories, but turned them down because they are the nasty Tories, and took a vastly inferior offer from Labour because they were the cuddly nice party, especially considering the current cordial relations between (S)LAB and the SNP.
    Any truck with the Tories and she is toast !
    Quite.

    Nick Robinson specifically mentioned Ed Miliband and Ed Balls in his report, not "Whoever the chancellor or PM is after the election".

    The Lib Dems have managed to get quite alot of their manifesto through for a junior partner in a colaition (Personal allowance, etc - see here Mark Pack's infographic yes yes I know but they have had stuff they wanted to achieve in Gov't)

    http://www.markpack.org.uk/libdem-infographic/

    And look at the polls for Danny Alexander, the man who is bringing home more pork in Nessie's barrel than he knows what to do with.

    Any deal with the Conservatives in Scotland is toxic, utterly toxic on the ground and the SNP want a majority in Holyrood next year - besides is Dave really going to abandon Trident or agree to spend more than Labour (Both of those would have devastating consequences for the Conservatives in terms of shipping support to UKIP) - it's a complete non starter for both Dave & Nicola.
  • Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed.

    Given the collapse of the Lib Dems I am not sure that their former supporters voting for someone else can be regarded as tactical.

    Tory voters have consistently been more resistant to tactical voting and the thread header suggests that is still true. It is possible, I put it no higher, that some will vote tactically in Scotland for a Unionist most likely to win. I very much hope that happens in Inverness for example but Danny would not be wise to count on it.

    Generally, I think that we have seen in our politics a similar phenomenon to what we have seen in Greece recently and elsewhere. People are fed up of austerity and hard choices. They want some magic wand waving and simplistic solutions. They are open to voting for those offering them whether they have a chance or not. I see a fragmentation of our votes reflecting this frustration and impatience.

    Still thinking about voting tactically in Dundee West though.

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.
    It seems to me that the reason we have it is the last Labour government tried to fund Scandanavian levels of public services on anglosphere levels of taxation, borrowing to make up the difference.

    I suppose there's an argument we could sustain higher tax revenues and spending with less globalisation, as we'd face less international competition, but I think that's a bit of a chimera.
    It is currently George Osborne of the Conservative persuasion who is "borrowing to make up the difference" at record levels.
  • IndigoIndigo Posts: 9,966
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    You appear to be overlooking Egypt (91%) Guinea (96%) Sudan (88%) Mali (89%) and in fact the bulk of North Africa plus Yemen totalling 30 countries or so. The highest total number of cases in a population by some margin is Egypt (27m+ cases)

    Sunni Islam views the practise of FGM as either obligatory or acceptable depending on which exact school you adhere to, so you would be inaccurate to say its not related to religion, although you are partly right to say other religions practise it as well, although in most countries rather less often.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @Markfergusonuk: Someone told me about Harriet Harman’s Pink Bus a month ago. I thought they were winding me up. It turns out it was not, in fact, a wind up
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    Sometimes kippers forget which bits of the dog whistle they're supposed to say out loud.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    I appreciate there's some pretty well informed people on here but I don't get this tactical voting thing, unless there is empirical evidence it occurs or has occurred its nothing more than interesting conversation.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    Male circumcision has proven health benefits and therefore is in no way comparable to FGM, which is why it is not discussed to anything like near the same extent.



    P S. any update on your definition of a hedge fund?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed.

    Given the collapse of the Lib Dems I am not sure that their former supporters voting for someone else can be regarded as tactical.

    Tory voters have consistently been more resistant to tactical voting and the thread header suggests that is still true. It is possible, I put it no higher, that some will vote tactically in Scotland for a Unionist most likely to win. I very much hope that happens in Inverness for example but Danny would not be wise to count on it.

    Generally, I think that we have seen in our politics a similar phenomenon to what we have seen in Greece recently and elsewhere. People are fed up of austerity and hard choices. They want some magic wand waving and simplistic solutions. They are open to voting for those offering them whether they have a chance or not. I see a fragmentation of our votes reflecting this frustration and impatience.

    Still thinking about voting tactically in Dundee West though.

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.
    It seems to me that the reason we have it is the last Labour government tried to fund Scandanavian levels of public services on anglosphere levels of taxation, borrowing to make up the difference.

    I suppose there's an argument we could sustain higher tax revenues and spending with less globalisation, as we'd face less international competition, but I think that's a bit of a chimera.
    My point is more that globalisation holds real wages down for most Western employees, ships mid-tier jobs overseas, and redistributes wealth upwards. For most people, that means permanent austerity.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    Labour have clearly got Barbara Cartland's vote, but being laughed at surely cannot be good politics.
    You are right, except that Tories must be careful not to be seen as laughing or sneering at women in general, especially now they have the vote.
    The Tories aren't sneering at women. We had a lady PM for heavens sake. Where are Labour on that?

    We are sneering at those on the Left who, rather than addressing industrial scale rape or FGM in our cities, witter on about how girls shouldn't be exposed to the stereotyping of pink = female and cutesy and subservient - and then start campaigning in a PINK battlebus. FFS.....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410

    I appreciate there's some pretty well informed people on here but I don't get this tactical voting thing, unless there is empirical evidence it occurs or has occurred its nothing more than interesting conversation.

    Hmm well if you're a Conservative in Dundee West and want to stop the SNP your only choice is Labour, or if you're a Lib Dem in Bedford your vote will be wasted if you vote Lib Dem or if you're a Labour supporter in St Ives or a UKIP supporter in Luton South...
  • Sean_F said:

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.

    It seems to me that the reason we have it is the last Labour government tried to fund Scandanavian levels of public services on anglosphere levels of taxation, borrowing to make up the difference.

    I suppose there's an argument we could sustain higher tax revenues and spending with less globalisation, as we'd face less international competition, but I think that's a bit of a chimera.
    I think that one effect of globalisation is that it is undermining the tax base. The ways in which this is happening are:

    1. Corporate tax receipts are reduced because of tax competition, and the ability to use transfer pricing to move profits to low-tax jurisdictions.

    2. Middle income jobs are reduced due to outsourcing and generally intensified competition, thus increasing the proportion of income tax receipts that come from a small minority of mobile tax payers. Technology is having an impact here, as it makes it easier for a CEO to run a company from a tax haven, and de-skills a lot of previously well-paid jobs.

    This will tend to make austerity necessary on a continual basis just to keep up with the erosion of the tax base. It is possible that a radical change in tax policy (land value taxation?) or economic policy (but what can you do in a globalised economy to create more middle income jobs?) might be able to halt these trends, but it doesn't look like an immediate prospect.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Of course you can overcook it - if you're a Conservative in West Aberdeen & Kincardine then voting Lib Dem could let the SNP in (There is no way to know which is the better "tactical" vote here right now).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Here's a sat with obvious tactical Lab -> Lib Dem switching through the 2000s, Farron being clearly the best left of centre candidate in the constituency and incumbent wrings every last drop out of the natural Labour vote:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westmorland_and_Lonsdale_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    You appear to be overlooking Egypt (91%) Guinea (96%) Sudan (88%) Mali (89%) and in fact the bulk of North Africa plus Yemen totalling 30 countries or so. The highest total number of cases in a population by some margin is Egypt (27m+ cases)

    Sunni Islam views the practise of FGM as either obligatory or acceptable depending on which exact school you adhere to, so you would be inaccurate to say its not related to religion, although you are partly right to say other religions practise it as well, although in most countries rather less often.
    Surbiton and our fact-based universe aren't on speaking terms.....
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    @Mr_Eugenides: #PinkBus is trending nationwide. Once again Labour taps into the zeitgeist in a way other parties can only dream of.

    While mocking #pinkbus is clearly good fun, Labour are right to campaign for the female vote. Women are more left leaning, less kipper prone and more likely to opinion poll as undecided. The low pay/ anti-austerity meme is more popular, and feminist issues are a way of engaging the young.

    Seems a good plan to me.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Oh dear. Labourlist unhappy with the Pink Bus because it isn't patronising enough...
    Much of the campaign is couched in family-oriented language (yesterday Lucy Powell, Vice Chair of Labour’s General Election Campaign, spoke of an economy that reaches kitchen tables as well as board rooms) that threatens to pigeonhole women, while excluding those who don’t have children or a family.

    However, the other glaring hole is that this campaign doesn’t yet address problems specific to women of colour.

    This failure also makes itself known at a representational level; there isn’t one woman of colour among the three (Harman, De Piero, and Powell) who are at the forefront of this campaign. This, in fact, reflects a broader problem – there isn’t a single woman of colour in the Shadow Cabinet.
    http://labourlist.org/2015/02/labours-womens-campaign-its-strengths-and-its-weaknesses-explained/
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    Sean_F said:

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.

    It seems to me that the reason we have it is the last Labour government tried to fund Scandanavian levels of public services on anglosphere levels of taxation, borrowing to make up the difference.

    I suppose there's an argument we could sustain higher tax revenues and spending with less globalisation, as we'd face less international competition, but I think that's a bit of a chimera.
    I think that one effect of globalisation is that it is undermining the tax base. The ways in which this is happening are:

    1. Corporate tax receipts are reduced because of tax competition, and the ability to use transfer pricing to move profits to low-tax jurisdictions.

    2. Middle income jobs are reduced due to outsourcing and generally intensified competition, thus increasing the proportion of income tax receipts that come from a small minority of mobile tax payers. Technology is having an impact here, as it makes it easier for a CEO to run a company from a tax haven, and de-skills a lot of previously well-paid jobs.

    This will tend to make austerity necessary on a continual basis just to keep up with the erosion of the tax base. It is possible that a radical change in tax policy (land value taxation?) or economic policy (but what can you do in a globalised economy to create more middle income jobs?) might be able to halt these trends, but it doesn't look like an immediate prospect.
    Very much agree, but most UK politicians does not seem to have looked at global facts and trends and so they have a very limited and unreal view of the potential UK economy.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited February 2015
    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    You appear to be overlooking Egypt (91%) Guinea (96%) Sudan (88%) Mali (89%) and in fact the bulk of North Africa plus Yemen totalling 30 countries or so. The highest total number of cases in a population by some margin is Egypt (27m+ cases)

    Sunni Islam views the practise of FGM as either obligatory or acceptable depending on which exact school you adhere to, so you would be inaccurate to say its not related to religion, although you are partly right to say other religions practise it as well, although in most countries rather less often.
    You are gassing out of your backside ! So, why is there no FGM in Indonesia [ largest ], India, Pakistan, Bangladesh [ 4 top ranking Muslim countries by population ] ? Even Nigeria.

    Because it has nothing to do with Islam. Show me one reference to FGM in the Quran.

    Egypt 91% ? So all those "western liberal" women supporting the murderer Al Sasi are practising FGM ? Do you have Muslim number generator somewhere ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Looks like Sturgeon is asking for Scotland to be allowed to try Greekonomics.

    Ed should rule out any deal where she is allowed near the chequebook.

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,207
    I went to a meeting last night organised by our local Lib Dem councilors re the possibility of setting up a residents association.

    I am new to the development but some people have been living there a while and it was very clear that the senior councilor knew the people and was highly visible in the area.

    Made me understand a little more clearly why they are so "sticky"

    Interestingly the conservatives in Colchester now seem to be adopting a similar approach (and they have rung to canvas each member of my family re voting intentions / thoughts on economy and the leaders of the parties.



  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,972
    Dear Marge....

    When I think about Labour and wonder how a great movement with towering figures like Bevan and Atlee have ended up with Ed Miliband I never stop to reflect on the effect of the pink battle bus......

    Should I?

    Yours

    Confused of Camden





  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    There’s a few things in life that really get my hackles up.

    People standing on the wrong side of escalators. Kim Kardashian. And the assumption that girls only like (cutesy, unintimidating, slightly babyish) pink.

    So when I saw Labour’s women’s bus… my heart sank.

    For the next three months, some of the party’s most impressive female minds will be travelling around the country drumming up support in a 17-seater mini bus. That happens to look like the lovechild of Barbie and Sheila’s Wheels.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11404815/Labours-pink-bus-stinks-heres-why.html?placement=CB2
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,712
    edited February 2015
    The weekly "Islam in the modern world” series locally is dealing with the position of women on Thursday. ’Twill be interesting to see what the speaker says about FGM.

    It’s down as a heading for discussion, but there’s nothing in the notes. He does though, often say about other practices .... no, nohing to do with Islam as such ..... local culture.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    You appear to be overlooking Egypt (91%) Guinea (96%) Sudan (88%) Mali (89%) and in fact the bulk of North Africa plus Yemen totalling 30 countries or so. The highest total number of cases in a population by some margin is Egypt (27m+ cases)

    Sunni Islam views the practise of FGM as either obligatory or acceptable depending on which exact school you adhere to, so you would be inaccurate to say its not related to religion, although you are partly right to say other religions practise it as well, although in most countries rather less often.
    You are gassing out of your backside ! So, why is there no FGM in Indonesia [ largest ], India, Pakistan, Bangladesh [ 4 top ranking Muslim countries by population ] ? Even Nigeria.

    Because it has nothing to do with Islam. Show me one reference to FGM in the Quran.

    Egypt 91% ? So all those "western liberal" women supporting the murderer Al Sasi are practising FGM ? Do you have Muslim number generator somewhere ?
    FGM is quite common in Muslim states in Nigeria.

  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.
    It seems to me that the reason we have it is the last Labour government tried to fund Scandanavian levels of public services on anglosphere levels of taxation, borrowing to make up the difference.

    I suppose there's an argument we could sustain higher tax revenues and spending with less globalisation, as we'd face less international competition, but I think that's a bit of a chimera.
    My point is more that globalisation holds real wages down for most Western employees, ships mid-tier jobs overseas, and redistributes wealth upwards. For most people, that means permanent austerity.
    This is a bit remiscent of the arguments against free-trade and imperial preference in the 19th Century, though. It's probably truer to say that it decreases inequality between countries, but increases it within them, excepting that absolute poverty worldwide has decreased remarkably over the last 25 years.

    Globalisation also reduces the cost of manufactured goods: almost everyone can afford a mobile phone, and televisions are now ridiculously cheap and power efficient. Even if globalisation didn't occur, technological development would result in many of the effects you cite.

    I don't think isolationism or anti-globalisation would make us any wealthier, in fact I fear it'd do the opposite. My objection is the belief you must have free movements of people to go with that of goods and services.

    I think the government can prepare the UK for the future best by prioritising education, science and universities, and accepting and building upon our relative strengths in financial services, pharmaceuticals, new tech, multimedia and tourism.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    You appear to be overlooking Egypt (91%) Guinea (96%) Sudan (88%) Mali (89%) and in fact the bulk of North Africa plus Yemen totalling 30 countries or so. The highest total number of cases in a population by some margin is Egypt (27m+ cases)

    Sunni Islam views the practise of FGM as either obligatory or acceptable depending on which exact school you adhere to, so you would be inaccurate to say its not related to religion, although you are partly right to say other religions practise it as well, although in most countries rather less often.
    You are gassing out of your backside ! So, why is there no FGM in Indonesia [ largest ], India, Pakistan, Bangladesh [ 4 top ranking Muslim countries by population ] ? Even Nigeria.

    Because it has nothing to do with Islam. Show me one reference to FGM in the Quran.

    Egypt 91% ? So all those "western liberal" women supporting the murderer Al Sasi are practising FGM ? Do you have Muslim number generator somewhere ?
    The majority of the countries where FGM is the norm are Islamic, and Islam is very adept at eradicating previous cultures in places where it dominates. The tolerance of FGM is at least tacit.

    FGM is illegal in Egypt and there was a recent conviction so the Government there seems to be tackling it at last. Indeed with a successful prosecution they are ahead of us!

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    Mr Mark,

    "Surbiton and our fact-based universe aren't on speaking terms..... !"

    Slightly unfair. I've noticed a tendency for all those who are wildly enthusiastic (you could say fanatical) about any political party to state that any view they hold is factual.

    They want to to be true, so they assume it is.

    The more idealistic they are, the worse it is.

    Je suis cynicism.
  • blackburn63blackburn63 Posts: 4,492
    Pulpstar said:

    I appreciate there's some pretty well informed people on here but I don't get this tactical voting thing, unless there is empirical evidence it occurs or has occurred its nothing more than interesting conversation.

    Hmm well if you're a Conservative in Dundee West and want to stop the SNP your only choice is Labour, or if you're a Lib Dem in Bedford your vote will be wasted if you vote Lib Dem or if you're a Labour supporter in St Ives or a UKIP supporter in Luton South...
    Yes, but there's still no evidence that occurs. I'm minded to think tactical voting is a myth

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,410
    Indonesia, India, Nigeria, Pakistan

    "Two Indonesian nationwide studies in 2003 and 2010 found over 80% of the cases sampled involved cutting, typically of newborns through the age of 9. The surveys demonstrated that circumcision among girls and boys is a universal practice in the study sites, in all of which Islam was the primary religion."

    Female genital mutilation is practiced among some Pakistani communities.Gibeau reports, for example, FGM is widespread in Bohra Muslims of Pakistan. The Sheedi Muslim community of Pakistan, considered to be of Arab-African origins, practice FGM. The practice is also found in Muslim communities near Pakistan's Iran-Balochistan border

    "Estimates suggest 90% of females in the Ismaili Shia Muslim Bohra community in India undergo the trauma"

    However in Nigeria...

    "A 2008 demographic survey found 30% of all Nigerian women have been subjected to FGM. FGM is prevalent in 31% of Catholics, 27% of Protestant and 7% of Muslim women."



  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Scott_P said:

    There’s a few things in life that really get my hackles up.

    People standing on the wrong side of escalators. Kim Kardashian. And the assumption that girls only like (cutesy, unintimidating, slightly babyish) pink.

    So when I saw Labour’s women’s bus… my heart sank.

    For the next three months, some of the party’s most impressive female minds will be travelling around the country drumming up support in a 17-seater mini bus. That happens to look like the lovechild of Barbie and Sheila’s Wheels.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11404815/Labours-pink-bus-stinks-heres-why.html?placement=CB2

    A Telegraph writer doesn't like an element of Labour's campaign! Fancy that!

    This morning is yett again dominated by a Tory media obsession that frankly leaves the rest of us bemused.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,538

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Feeling in a contrarian mood this morning so is it possible that we might see less tactical voting in 2015 than we did in 2010?

    I do think that some Labour supporters who have lent their votes to the Lib Dems before to keep out the tories feel betrayed and will vote Labour this time when Labour does not have a chance (eg in the south west and in the south generally). Result a less efficient Labour vote.

    I also think that the rise of UKIP means (a) those naturally inclined to vote for them will deceive themselves into believing that they have a chance locally and (b) that they will feel a need to demonstrate the new found strength of their party by voting for them regardless. I fear the Tories will find squeezing the purple vote more difficult than is sometimes assumed

    I think the Conservatives could get UKIP down to 11% or so, but that's as good as it gets.

    WRT austerity, people don't want austerity without end. But, globalisation probably means austerity without end.


    My point is more that globalisation holds real wages down for most Western employees, ships mid-tier jobs overseas, and redistributes wealth upwards.
    This is a bit remiscent of the arguments against free-trade and imperial preference in the 19th Century, though. It's probably truer to say that it decreases inequality between countries, but increases it within them, excepting that absolute poverty worldwide has decreased remarkably over the last 25 years.

    Globalisation also reduces the cost of manufactured goods: almost everyone can afford a mobile phone, and televisions are now ridiculously cheap and power efficient. Even if globalisation didn't occur, technological development would result in many of the effects you cite.

    I don't think isolationism or anti-globalisation would make us any wealthier, in fact I fear it'd do the opposite. My objection is the belief you must have free movements of people to go with that of goods and services.

    I think the government can prepare the UK for the future best by prioritising education, science and universities, and accepting and building upon our relative strengths in financial services, pharmaceuticals, new tech, multimedia and tourism.
    I should have clarified. For most people *in Western countries* it has these adverse impacts. Obviously, globalisation is very good news for people in low income countries, who can leave behind a medieval standard of living.

    I don't think protectionism would help Westerners either, as it would simply drive up the cost of goods and services. Nor would it be right to shut people out of the global economy who earn £2,000 p.a. to try and help people who earn 10 times as much.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,366
    edited February 2015
    Surby

    "Show me one reference to FGM in the Quran"

    You do know about the other sources used? The Hadith, for example? Or the cultural pressures.

    You don't approve of FGM, but you approve of groups who you believe are marginalised. A reasonable view but sometimes difficult to reconcile. I think the Pope is a good man but I suspect he sins at times. Even the Saints can be horrible.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    BenM said:

    A Telegraph writer doesn't like an element of Labour's campaign! Fancy that!

    She is a Sky political reporter
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    BenM said:

    Scott_P said:

    There’s a few things in life that really get my hackles up.

    People standing on the wrong side of escalators. Kim Kardashian. And the assumption that girls only like (cutesy, unintimidating, slightly babyish) pink.

    So when I saw Labour’s women’s bus… my heart sank.

    For the next three months, some of the party’s most impressive female minds will be travelling around the country drumming up support in a 17-seater mini bus. That happens to look like the lovechild of Barbie and Sheila’s Wheels.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11404815/Labours-pink-bus-stinks-heres-why.html?placement=CB2
    A Telegraph writer doesn't like an element of Labour's campaign! Fancy that!

    This morning is yett again dominated by a Tory media obsession that frankly leaves the rest of us bemused.

    Well, there isn't a lot left for them not to like.

    Labour writers seem to dislike most of Labour ideas and plans leaving a paucity of material for the right to deride.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    surbiton said:

    Indigo said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    Even women journos are laughing at Labour this morning

    @SophyRidgeSky: I can't help but think of this image when covering Labour's pink "Woman to Woman" bus http://t.co/wKZdhKYPR7

    I'm looking forward to the Pink Persuader being parked outside mosques as the Labour Lassies go spreading the message about how FGM is a great evil that should be stamped out in the UK.....
    What have you, Socrates et al have against Muslims? It is pathological. There is nothing in Islam about FGM. 99% of Muslims do not practice it. In only parts of the Horn of Africa is this vile thing practised by members of all religions.

    Regarding Male circumcision, yes it is recommended in Islam and 99.9% probably practice it. But then, so do Jews. Somehow, I am sure you would not write about their practices. Also, more than 50% of the US population and, until recently, male members of our Royal family.
    You appear to be overlooking Egypt (91%) Guinea (96%) Sudan (88%) Mali (89%) and in fact the bulk of North Africa plus Yemen totalling 30 countries or so. The highest total number of cases in a population by some margin is Egypt (27m+ cases)

    Sunni Islam views the practise of FGM as either obligatory or acceptable depending on which exact school you adhere to, so you would be inaccurate to say its not related to religion, although you are partly right to say other religions practise it as well, although in most countries rather less often.

    Because it has nothing to do with Islam. Show me one reference to FGM in the Quran.


    There is no mention in the Qur'an of women being compelled to wear head scarves or Burka's, which must be why you never see it.
  • saddenedsaddened Posts: 2,245
    BenM said:

    Scott_P said:

    There’s a few things in life that really get my hackles up.

    People standing on the wrong side of escalators. Kim Kardashian. And the assumption that girls only like (cutesy, unintimidating, slightly babyish) pink.

    So when I saw Labour’s women’s bus… my heart sank.

    For the next three months, some of the party’s most impressive female minds will be travelling around the country drumming up support in a 17-seater mini bus. That happens to look like the lovechild of Barbie and Sheila’s Wheels.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-politics/11404815/Labours-pink-bus-stinks-heres-why.html?placement=CB2
    A Telegraph writer doesn't like an element of Labour's campaign! Fancy that!

    This morning is yett again dominated by a Tory media obsession that frankly leaves the rest of us bemused.

    Yes those well known Tory rags, the guardian, Labour list, the staggers, innumerable left leaning bloggers they are all Tory stooges. This is Miliband's blank sheet of paper biting him in the arse.
This discussion has been closed.