Having watched Nicola Sturgeon's speech, I think the SNP could seem a lot more palatable to people in England when they're talking about being a progressive influence rather than when they were talking about issues relating to independence. If the debates go ahead I think their anti austerity and equality messages could really strike a chord with some people.
Having watched Nicola Sturgeon's speech, I think the SNP could seem a lot more palatable to people in England when they're talking about being a progressive influence rather than when they were talking about issues relating to independence. If the debates go ahead I think their anti austerity and equality messages could really strike a chord with some people.
Having watched Nicola Sturgeon's speech, I think the SNP could seem a lot more palatable to people in England when they're talking about being a progressive influence rather than when they were talking about issues relating to independence. If the debates go ahead I think their anti austerity and equality messages could really strike a chord with some people.
Exactly, though when I made a broadly similar remark some weeks back I was sneered down on PB!
Political Compass have just issued a new analysis for GE2015 which shows how centrist the SNP and PC are by comparison with Labour/LD/Tories, but still with some way to go to the Greens and SSP (i.e the real socialists, not that SLAB branch office of the Labour Party). That is a heck of a gap in the market not being filled in England.
Having watched Nicola Sturgeon's speech, I think the SNP could seem a lot more palatable to people in England when they're talking about being a progressive influence rather than when they were talking about issues relating to independence. If the debates go ahead I think their anti austerity and equality messages could really strike a chord with some people.
Will it be I agree with Nick(ola)?
Sturgeon will hopefully crush Miliband in the debates.
I think Ed might be in trouble here with those comments. There is no way they will stand up to scrutiny without Parliamentary privilege, but he can't take them back either. It was a stupid throwaway comment as well and now it will make him look untrustworthy or a chicken.
I think Ed might be in trouble here with those comments. There is no way they will stand up to scrutiny without Parliamentary privilege, but he can't take them back either. It was a stupid throwaway comment as well and now it will make him look untrustworthy or a chicken.
You wont see Ed for days now - Labour poll bounce ?
Will the posters who thought Ed had a win today be cheered if the lead story is a defamation suit?
Interesting that the Independent article on this ended with a statement that there is no evidence that any of the named persons have not paid their taxes in full.
Now, for the defamation suit, are tweets sufficient? Presumably they are not covered by Parliamentary privilege.
I think Ed might be in trouble here with those comments. There is no way they will stand up to scrutiny without Parliamentary privilege, but he can't take them back either. It was a stupid throwaway comment as well and now it will make him look untrustworthy or a chicken.
Legally it's murky, politically I don't think today will do him any harm at all.
@MaxPB Yes, it was stupid when those accused of tax avoidance can pay a percentage of their proceeds, then be granted immunity from prosecution. Easier in France where they reckoned 95% of those listed were guilty. Harder in the UK where 99.9% were totally without fault.
Miliband's made the calculation that his ratings are so awful flinging shit around is probably worth the risk even if some of it does end up sticking to himself.
I think Ed might be in trouble here with those comments. There is no way they will stand up to scrutiny without Parliamentary privilege, but he can't take them back either. It was a stupid throwaway comment as well and now it will make him look untrustworthy or a chicken.
Legally it's murky, politically I don't think today will do him any harm at all.
If the challenges to Ed get public traction then it won't be good for him politically, I think it is a big if because the BBC probably won't have the demand from Lord Fink on their website or on the evening bulletin, but if it does then it could get a bit messy as Ed will be forced to retract his statement or be branded a liar/untrustworthy.
The stupidest part is that Ed named a guy who lived and worked in Switzerland as his example of being "dodgy". Really, really stupid.
I think Ed might be in trouble here with those comments. There is no way they will stand up to scrutiny without Parliamentary privilege, but he can't take them back either. It was a stupid throwaway comment as well and now it will make him look untrustworthy or a chicken.
Legally it's murky, politically I don't think today will do him any harm at all.
If the challenges to Ed get public traction then it won't be good for him politically, I think it is a big if because the BBC probably won't have the demand from Lord Fink on their website or on the evening bulletin, but if it does then it could get a bit messy as Ed will be forced to retract his statement or be branded a liar/untrustworthy.
I'd be suprised if Lord Fink isn't touring all the news studios tonight.
I think Ed might be in trouble here with those comments. There is no way they will stand up to scrutiny without Parliamentary privilege, but he can't take them back either. It was a stupid throwaway comment as well and now it will make him look untrustworthy or a chicken.
Legally it's murky, politically I don't think today will do him any harm at all.
If the challenges to Ed get public traction then it won't be good for him politically, I think it is a big if because the BBC probably won't have the demand from Lord Fink on their website or on the evening bulletin, but if it does then it could get a bit messy as Ed will be forced to retract his statement or be branded a liar/untrustworthy.
He must already be looking forward to PMQs next week when his error and lack of integrity an be included by Dave in an answer.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
You are quite right Roger - wealthy people should have no right to defend their integrity when slandered/libelled etc.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
OK Lets have a PM making false accusations, telling lies, that sort of thing. (edit. Sounds like going to war under a Labour PM)
You have your values, they would appear to allow defamation in a very public place by a man who is asking to become PM. I think that is an issue.
I think Ed might be in trouble here with those comments. There is no way they will stand up to scrutiny without Parliamentary privilege, but he can't take them back either. It was a stupid throwaway comment as well and now it will make him look untrustworthy or a chicken.
Legally it's murky, politically I don't think today will do him any harm at all.
If the challenges to Ed get public traction then it won't be good for him politically, I think it is a big if because the BBC probably won't have the demand from Lord Fink on their website or on the evening bulletin, but if it does then it could get a bit messy as Ed will be forced to retract his statement or be branded a liar/untrustworthy.
The stupidest part is that Ed named a guy who lived and worked in Switzerland as his example of being "dodgy". Really, really stupid.
From Beeb live feed -
Breaking News
Posted at 15:52
Lord Fink, the Conservative peer and party donor charged by Ed Miliband today of having undertaken "tax avoidance activities", has written to the Labour leader. He explains why Mr Miliband's allegations are incorrect, and then says: "I find it extraordinary that you have made claims against me that are without foundation or without contacting me. I challenge you to repeat your allegation outside the House of Commons - or to withdraw it publically."
A business previously chaired by another prominent Jewish Grammar school boy, one Michael Levy aka Lord Levy, known for donations and fund-raising for the Labour Party.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
This is an issue of right and wrong though, it doesn't matter how rich one side is. This man worked in Switzerland FFS, what was he supposed to do while there? Pay Swiss tax and UK tax on his income? Is Ed going to go to the Swiss government and demand that all Swiss nationals pay tax to the UK Treasury? It was a stupid comment and now Lord Fink has him over a barrel because it won't stand up to any kind of scrutiny, legal or common sense.
Also, if you classify Man Group as a hedge fund you are beyond clueless.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
OK Lets have a PM making false accusations, telling lies, that sort of thing.
You have your values, they would appear to allow defamation in a very public place by a man who is asking to become PM. I think that is an issue.
I think Roger is quite clear that by openly supporting the Conservatives this chap has to forgo his basic human rights.
@philiph The only ones who can definitively tell what the various account holders were up to is the HRMC. But they are bound by a gagging order that means it is impossible to find out. Very convenient.
If the challenges to Ed get public traction then it won't be good for him politically, I think it is a big if because the BBC probably won't have the demand from Lord Fink on their website or on the evening bulletin, but if it does then it could get a bit messy as Ed will be forced to retract his statement or be branded a liar/untrustworthy.
If journalists ever do get around to asking Ed to repeat or withdraw the comments about Fink they might as well ask Ed about the "weaponise the NHS" comment at the same time.
I think that by the end of the campaign Ed's going to have a long list of awkward questions he wants to duck.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Does being wealthy mean you have no leagal recourse?
@philiph The only ones who can definitively tell what the various account holders were up to is the HRMC. But they are bound by a gagging order that means it is impossible to find out. Very convenient.
So on what basis could Ed factually make the claim that Lord Fink had evaded tax?
Either he had information from HMRC or he made it up.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Beeb have also updated main "Miliband attacks dodgy PM" story with
"The Labour leader singled out Lord Fink in his attack - but the peer has challenged him to withdraw the remark. Lord Fink, who stepped down as Conservative co-treasurer in 2010 and has given the party £3m, is among those named in documents seen by the BBC's Panorama programme, as is Labour donor Lord Paul. At Prime Minister's Questions in the Commons, Mr Miliband called on Mr Cameron to say what steps he was going to take "to find out about the tax avoidance activities of Lord Fink".
In a letter to the Labour leader, Lord Fink said Mr Miliband's allegations, made under the protection of Parliamentary privilege, were "untrue and defamatory".
He said he had opened an account in Switzerland when he worked there because "I had need of a local bank account to do simple things like receive my Swiss franc salary and pay grocery bills". "I find it extraordinary that you have made claims against me that are without foundation or without contacting me," wrote the peer. "I challenge you to repeat your allegation outside the House of Commons - or to withdraw it publicly."
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Remind us, how many years did you defend convicted criminal Chris Huhne for?
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Not sure this post should stay - not even Roger called him a dodger.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Shouldn't that be alleged tax dodgers and avoiders?
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Not sure this post should stay - not even Roger called him a dodger.
Let Senior have his days in Court, if it comes to it. He could always do a Bercow and settle - must have cost her a small fortune.
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Care to name the tax Dodgers that you feel are being defended?
Multi millionaire Tory donor Hedge fund manager with houses in Spain France and the Bahamas who donated £2,500,000 to the party of which he was treasurer and from whom he received a Baronecy with a personal wealth of £180,000,000 is threatening to sue Ed Miliband.....I'm sure the public will be wailing for his hurt feelings...........
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
Yes roger , you watch the pb tories rush to defend these tax dodgers and avoiders and attack your post .
Remind us, how many years did you defend convicted criminal Chris Huhne for?
Andy Bell @andybell5news Follow Labour; will be no backing down on Lord Fink, Ed will make allegations again outside Parliament #HSBC
The allegations weren't entirely clear. He asked Cameron what steps he would be taking to find out about the tax avoidance activities of Lord Fink. That's what is in the Lord's letter anyway if I've read the correct version.
"He is trying to sell himself as the politician that takes on the vested interests, tax avoiders and big business moguls, so it would be perfect".
Spot on. This rather tawdry campaign probably accidental is working out better than anyone could imagine. Who would have guessed that these muti millionaire tax exiles would have such thin skin. This is something which is actually being talked about. No one seems to have realized that these people actually exist let alone that they're mostly under David Cameron's wing. I'm really beginning to wonder how far this thing can go. Could it actually win it for Ed?
Ed Miliband really is a very unpleasant politician. I admit I misjudged him - I thought he was decent but misguided and naive, but it's impossible to regard him as decent any more. Throwing smears around with the abandon he does is not the action of an honourable person.
Hasn't raised my hackles, the pathetic attempt by the left to create a division in society that doesn't exist has. All stereotypes are based on truisms, as the toy industry would attest girls love pink.
Are girls genetically predisposed to like pink, or do we teach them to love it? If we surround our children with pink everything, is it surprising that the link between being a girl and liking pink is reinforced? Toy manufactures are partly to blame but partly just following the trend. Girls love pink, therefore we sell pink things, thus contributing to the cycle.
We are complicit in the pinkification of our girls. And I don't just mean the colour. Studies have been done that show we just don't push our girls or let them take the same risks as we do with our boys; even parents who otherwise attempt to ignore gender stereotypes are guilty of these biases.
It's probably a case of both and, rather than either or.
There may be a genetic link, I don't claim otherwise. But there are studies around that show inadvertent biases that we cannot ignore such as this one i linked below
Far from being beyond satire, we are at least partially to blame for the increasing pinkification of our female children,.
It soundss to me very much like a rich person's problem.
My nieces are absolutely obsessed with fairies. My nephews aren't. It's probably in part, an inherent preference among girls and boys, and partly cultural conditioning. But, it seems a very minor issue to get bothered about.
#firstworldproblems
Who cares, seriously ? Does it actually matter a damn or is it just a false dividing line for people to bang a drum about. Men and women are different, people need to get over it, otherwise lets have the men vs women rugby, or mixed singles finals at Wimbledon. Lefties need to get over this "equality of outcome" idiocy, its not possible, it wont happen, and it makes you look stupid, equality of opportunity is what matters.
Does it actually matter a damn? This is a question that is worth asking (I don't know, but suspect that it does).
If it is purely the case that girls in general prefer pink and dolls, and boys blue and cars then probably not. But I suspect that the reinforcement of pink and "girly" things, and conditioned risk aversion etc. has a serious limiting factor on our children's potential.
Hasn't raised my hackles, the pathetic attempt by the left to create a division in society that doesn't exist has. All stereotypes are based on truisms, as the toy industry would attest girls love pink.
Are girls genetically predisposed to like pink, or do we teach them to love it? If we surround our children with pink everything, is it surprising that the link between being a girl and liking pink is reinforced? Toy manufactures are partly to blame but partly just following the trend. Girls love pink, therefore we sell pink things, thus contributing to the cycle.
We are complicit in the pinkification of our girls. And I don't just mean the colour. Studies have been done that show we just don't push our girls or let them take the same risks as we do with our boys; even parents who otherwise attempt to ignore gender stereotypes are guilty of these biases.
It's probably a case of both and, rather than either or.
There may be a genetic link, I don't claim otherwise. But there are studies around that show inadvertent biases that we cannot ignore such as this one i linked below
Far from being beyond satire, we are at least partially to blame for the increasing pinkification of our female children,.
It soundss to me very much like a rich person's problem.
My nieces are absolutely obsessed with fairies. My nephews aren't. It's probably in part, an inherent preference among girls and boys, and partly cultural conditioning. But, it seems a very minor issue to get bothered about.
#firstworldproblems
Who cares, seriously ? Does it actually matter a damn or is it just a false dividing line for people to bang a drum about. Men and women are different, people need to get over it, otherwise lets have the men vs women rugby, or mixed singles finals at Wimbledon. Lefties need to get over this "equality of outcome" idiocy, its not possible, it wont happen, and it makes you look stupid, equality of opportunity is what matters.
Does it actually matter a damn? This is a question that is worth asking (I don't know, but suspect that it does).
If it is purely the case that girls in general prefer pink and dolls, and boys blue and cars then probably not. But I suspect that the reinforcement of pink and "girly" things, and conditioned risk aversion etc. has a serious limiting factor on our children's potential.
Please, please, stick to your "own team" Mr Smithson. So few people care enough to have a real properly-thought-out opinion that it is a shame when someone who does switches just on the off-chance that their vote could swing it.
Comments
@MrHarryCole: Harman getting duffed up on Sky
Jack or Harriet?
Screenshot upthread is a gem
Political Compass have just issued a new analysis for GE2015 which shows how centrist the SNP and PC are by comparison with Labour/LD/Tories, but still with some way to go to the Greens and SSP (i.e the real socialists, not that SLAB branch office of the Labour Party). That is a heck of a gap in the market not being filled in England.
Will the posters who thought Ed had a win today be cheered if the lead story is a defamation suit?
http://www.isam.com/management-team/stanley-fink
Now, for the defamation suit, are tweets sufficient? Presumably they are not covered by Parliamentary privilege.
Yes, it was stupid when those accused of tax avoidance can pay a percentage of their proceeds, then be granted immunity from prosecution.
Easier in France where they reckoned 95% of those listed were guilty. Harder in the UK where 99.9% were totally without fault.
His guys need to get their lawyers in action now, or some the the mud is going to stick.
He is trying to sell himself as the politician that takes on the vested interests, tax avoiders and big business moguls, so it would be perfect.
You only want to see the bad bits cos it suits your meme that he is clueless etc
Maybe you're right but I don't think he is as wet as you like to think
Ed Balls is going to have an even tougher time selling Labour to Business.
Should Sepp Blatter be worried he might have to pay up if Labour come to power ?
Though of course, it would be difficult to find out due to the UK tax "privacy" regulations?
A bit like Ken and Boris disclosing tax returns. only one winner.
The stupidest part is that Ed named a guy who lived and worked in Switzerland as his example of being "dodgy". Really, really stupid.
@hopisen
This is how to interpret my silence on the election campaign so far. https://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me2tqo0xbe1qafsk3.gif …
Staunch Labour supporter and ex poster speaks..
The posters on here....... You really couldn't make them up
You have your values, they would appear to allow defamation in a very public place by a man who is asking to become PM. I think that is an issue.
Breaking News
Posted at 15:52
Lord Fink, the Conservative peer and party donor charged by Ed Miliband today of having undertaken "tax avoidance activities", has written to the Labour leader. He explains why Mr Miliband's allegations are incorrect, and then says: "I find it extraordinary that you have made claims against me that are without foundation or without contacting me. I challenge you to repeat your allegation outside the House of Commons - or to withdraw it publically."
Nice one Ed.
Also, if you classify Man Group as a hedge fund you are beyond clueless.
The only ones who can definitively tell what the various account holders were up to is the HRMC.
But they are bound by a gagging order that means it is impossible to find out.
Very convenient.
I think that by the end of the campaign Ed's going to have a long list of awkward questions he wants to duck.
Follow
Labour; will be no backing down on Lord Fink, Ed will make allegations again outside Parliament #HSBC
Either he had information from HMRC or he made it up.
"Does being wealthy mean you have no leagal recourse? "
Of course not. That is reserved for the poor and powerless.
Cuts in legal aid anyone?
"The Labour leader singled out Lord Fink in his attack - but the peer has challenged him to withdraw the remark.
Lord Fink, who stepped down as Conservative co-treasurer in 2010 and has given the party £3m, is among those named in documents seen by the BBC's Panorama programme, as is Labour donor Lord Paul.
At Prime Minister's Questions in the Commons, Mr Miliband called on Mr Cameron to say what steps he was going to take "to find out about the tax avoidance activities of Lord Fink".
In a letter to the Labour leader, Lord Fink said Mr Miliband's allegations, made under the protection of Parliamentary privilege, were "untrue and defamatory".
He said he had opened an account in Switzerland when he worked there because "I had need of a local bank account to do simple things like receive my Swiss franc salary and pay grocery bills".
"I find it extraordinary that you have made claims against me that are without foundation or without contacting me," wrote the peer.
"I challenge you to repeat your allegation outside the House of Commons - or to withdraw it publicly."
"He is trying to sell himself as the politician that takes on the vested interests, tax avoiders and big business moguls, so it would be perfect".
Spot on. This rather tawdry campaign probably accidental is working out better than anyone could imagine. Who would have guessed that these muti millionaire tax exiles would have such thin skin. This is something which is actually being talked about. No one seems to have realized that these people actually exist let alone that they're mostly under David Cameron's wing. I'm really beginning to wonder how far this thing can go. Could it actually win it for Ed?
If it is purely the case that girls in general prefer pink and dolls, and boys blue and cars then probably not. But I suspect that the reinforcement of pink and "girly" things, and conditioned risk aversion etc. has a serious limiting factor on our children's potential.
If it is purely the case that girls in general prefer pink and dolls, and boys blue and cars then probably not. But I suspect that the reinforcement of pink and "girly" things, and conditioned risk aversion etc. has a serious limiting factor on our children's potential.