If this is true then Osborne is exposed as a liar:
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
We didn't get any discount we hadn't already been promised since the 1984 hand-bagging.
It's ok, Indigo, I think most people have worked out for themselves what actually happened, and one thing's for sure - we certainly are not paying a penny less than we were charged (although we have been given favorable payment terms without interest and penalties.)
So why is the UK suddenly being asked for extra cash? This is part of an annual process in which the European statistics agency Eurostat uses figures from member states to work out how much they should each be contributing to the EU budget. It happens every year, and in some previous years I'm told that the UK has received a rebate. You might not have noticed it in previous years, because the amounts involved have been smaller. This year, however, the UK has been asked for an additional contribution, which is considerably higher than any other member state.
Surely the basic problem was Cameron getting out of his pram over it?
Incidentally, IIRC Greece is also due to make a payment. I've seen SFA about that, or about Cameron (or Osborne) looking to make common cause with them. And din't Holland just say "them's the rules. Bother!" Or something like that?
Indeed.
Which is why Farage said that the UK would pay up - because that's what the UK and every other country has done in the past.
Likewise in the years we get money back the UK and every other country accepts it.
But Cameron and Osborne thought they could turn the whole thing into some big showdown for electoral gain, gave it a load of big talk, discovered they had to pay up, agreed to pay up and then tried to lie their way out of the mess they'd got themselves in.
That's karma for the ineptness of Nigels Owens today and in the summer
Given he yellowed an all black, gave England a penalty try, and it seems gave England at least one or two borderline decisions in the scrum, I don't think you've much to complain about.
Wales narrowly losing late to Australia has become a bit of a tradition.
He gave a try to the All Blacks that should have been for the TMO.
Losing by three points flattered us.
However, I'm likely to tip England for the Six Nations.
I tipped Ireland for this year's contest and Wales in 2013.
I'm going to make it a hat-trick. I know it.
Rarely worth tipping England around the 6 nations, too much public and patriotic money goes on them. Better off betting on them as far out as possible and then hedging when that money comes in nearer the tournament.
Bet England early and the other nations late is my humble advice.
France might be worth a punt. Fickou and Fofana are wonderful.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back.
They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
So why is the UK suddenly being asked for extra cash? This is part of an annual process in which the European statistics agency Eurostat uses figures from member states to work out how much they should each be contributing to the EU budget. It happens every year, and in some previous years I'm told that the UK has received a rebate. You might not have noticed it in previous years, because the amounts involved have been smaller. This year, however, the UK has been asked for an additional contribution, which is considerably higher than any other member state.
Surely the basic problem was Cameron getting out of his pram over it?
Incidentally, IIRC Greece is also due to make a payment. I've seen SFA about that, or about Cameron (or Osborne) looking to make common cause with them. And din't Holland just say "them's the rules. Bother!" Or something like that?
Indeed.
Which is why Farage said that the UK would pay up - because that's what the UK and every other country has done in the past.
Likewise in the years we get money back the UK and every other country accepts it.
But Cameron and Osborne thought they could turn the whole thing into some big showdown for electoral gain, gave it a load of big talk, discovered they had to pay up, agreed to pay up and then tried to lie their way out of the mess they'd got themselves in.
That's one way of looking at it, Richard, but I prefer the cock-up to the conspiracy theory.
I suspect the charge was overlooked at first and then became a potential political embarrassment. The Government decided to handle it by first throwing a tantrum and blaming the horrid EU, then negotiating easy payment terms and claiming it as a victory over said horrid EU.
It doesn't quite wash but no matter. At the end of the day, we are paying what was due, but later and without interest or penalties.
So we did get a result. And nobody was humiliated.
[Btw, I think 'lie' is a bit strong. There was certainly more than a touch of smoke and mirrors about it, but nothing that would make a Tesco Board Director blush.]
That's karma for the ineptness of Nigels Owens today and in the summer
Given he yellowed an all black, gave England a penalty try, and it seems gave England at least one or two borderline decisions in the scrum, I don't think you've much to complain about.
Wales narrowly losing late to Australia has become a bit of a tradition.
He gave a try to the All Blacks that should have been for the TMO.
Losing by three points flattered us.
However, I'm likely to tip England for the Six Nations.
I tipped Ireland for this year's contest and Wales in 2013.
I'm going to make it a hat-trick. I know it.
Rarely worth tipping England around the 6 nations, too much public and patriotic money goes on them. Better off betting on them as far out as possible and then hedging when that money comes in nearer the tournament.
Bet England early and the other nations late is my humble advice.
France might be worth a punt. Fickou and Fofana are wonderful.
This year I laid England, but I feel it in my waters.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back.
They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
I was stood in local shopping centre of a small town in the south west waiting for Mrs Moses. I was there around 15 minutes with around 30 to 50 people passing me ( either way) every minute on average on a Saturday midday. I did a "pass by" snap poll over those minutes and noted that off the numbers passing me a total of only 42 poppies were "openly" being worn. Of these worn around 25% were of the home made woollen variety. The poppy sellers with a table close by were largely ignored around 3 people in that same 15 minute period. The Sea Cadet opposite had zero donations.
I dont really buy the premise of wearing a poppy on the day only but accept a few will choose to do this and fair enough. In my entire lifetime it has never been that way we have always worn our poppy with pride in the approach to this very important and solemn event throughout our nation.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Mr. Moses, only an anecdote, but I won't have a poppy, unusually, because the damned thing went missing (it was pinned to my fleece, and then it wasn't).
On F1: I'm behind with some work. Current plan is to get that done then the pre-race piece, so that might be tomorrow morning.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
The Real North.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
Mr. Moses, only an anecdote, but I won't have a poppy, unusually, because the damned thing went missing (it was pinned to my fleece, and then it wasn't).
On F1: I'm behind with some work. Current plan is to get that done then the pre-race piece, so that might be tomorrow morning.
Ah yes always that issue of course. Ok to be more accurate should have allowed +/- 3% MOE
I was stood in local shopping centre of a small town in the south west waiting for Mrs Moses. I was there around 15 minutes with around 30 to 50 people passing me ( either way) every minute on average on a Saturday midday. I did a "pass by" snap poll over those minutes and noted that off the numbers passing me a total of only 42 poppies were "openly" being worn. Of these worn around 25% were of the home made woollen variety. The poppy sellers with a table close by were largely ignored around 3 people in that same 15 minute period. The Sea Cadet opposite had zero donations.
I dont really buy the premise of wearing a poppy on the day only but accept a few will choose to do this and fair enough. In my entire lifetime it has never been that way we have always worn our poppy with pride in the approach to this very important and solemn event throughout our nation.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
Or maybe they're suffering from fatigue after having it thrust down their throats in a truly mawkish and indeed anachronistic fashion for a year. The BBC in particular should be ashamed of themselves and their appalling propaganda feeding off the deaths of millions to try and score modern points - it's one reason why I have cancelled my licence fee.
The reason I wasn't wearing my poppy today is bizarrely prosaic - when moving house, I packed my safety pins somewhere very safe and I can't remember where!
I was stood in local shopping centre of a small town in the south west waiting for Mrs Moses. I was there around 15 minutes with around 30 to 50 people passing me ( either way) every minute on average on a Saturday midday. I did a "pass by" snap poll over those minutes and noted that off the numbers passing me a total of only 42 poppies were "openly" being worn. Of these worn around 25% were of the home made woollen variety. The poppy sellers with a table close by were largely ignored around 3 people in that same 15 minute period. The Sea Cadet opposite had zero donations.
I dont really buy the premise of wearing a poppy on the day only but accept a few will choose to do this and fair enough. In my entire lifetime it has never been that way we have always worn our poppy with pride in the approach to this very important and solemn event throughout our nation.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
Or maybe they're suffering from fatigue after having it thrust down their throats in a truly mawkish and indeed anachronistic fashion for a year. The BBC in particular should be ashamed of themselves and their appalling propaganda feeding off the deaths of millions to try and score modern points - it's one reason why I have cancelled my licence fee.
The reason I wasn't wearing my poppy today is bizarrely prosaic - when moving house, I packed my safety pins somewhere very safe and I can't remember where!
IMHO Remembrance Day is a specific day (either Remembrance Sunday, or Armistice Day itself). So may be appropriate to wear a poppy with pride between the Sunday and the 11th itself.
Wearing a poppy three weeks before Remembrance Sunday is a bit like opening your birthday presents three weeks early.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
The Real North.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
The Real North?
That's Geordie Land. Including Mackems. Not "sort of" Southerners from South Yorks.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
The Real North.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
The Real North?
That's Geordie Land. Including Mackems. Not "sort of" Southerners from South Yorks.
Surely the basic problem was Cameron getting out of his pram over it?
Incidentally, IIRC Greece is also due to make a payment. I've seen SFA about that, or about Cameron (or Osborne) looking to make common cause with them. And din't Holland just say "them's the rules. Bother!" Or something like that?
Indeed.
Which is why Farage said that the UK would pay up - because that's what the UK and every other country has done in the past.
Likewise in the years we get money back the UK and every other country accepts it.
But Cameron and Osborne thought they could turn the whole thing into some big showdown for electoral gain, gave it a load of big talk, discovered they had to pay up, agreed to pay up and then tried to lie their way out of the mess they'd got themselves in.
That's one way of looking at it, Richard, but I prefer the cock-up to the conspiracy theory.
I suspect the charge was overlooked at first and then became a potential political embarrassment. The Government decided to handle it by first throwing a tantrum and blaming the horrid EU, then negotiating easy payment terms and claiming it as a victory over said horrid EU.
It doesn't quite wash but no matter. At the end of the day, we are paying what was due, but later and without interest or penalties.
So we did get a result. And nobody was humiliated.
[Btw, I think 'lie' is a bit strong. There was certainly more than a touch of smoke and mirrors about it, but nothing that would make a Tesco Board Director blush.]
I think its reasonable to assume that Cameron and Osborne didn't know about it at first because its something which happens every year and is normally for smaller amounts.
Certainly its the first year I've ever heard of the process and I suspect that applies to almost everyone else here.
But politicians do have a regrettable tendency to big things up and then have to big up the talk, smoke and mirrors as you say, to cover up their actions not matching their initial rhetoric. It makes me want to shout "FFS, stop telling me this crap, you're not fooling me".
I just wish they would tell things straight, underpromise and then overdeliver.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
The Real North.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
The Real North.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
The Real North?
That's Geordie Land. Including Mackems. Not "sort of" Southerners from South Yorks.
I was stood in local shopping centre of a small town in the south west waiting for Mrs Moses. I was there around 15 minutes with around 30 to 50 people passing me ( either way) every minute on average on a Saturday midday. I did a "pass by" snap poll over those minutes and noted that off the numbers passing me a total of only 42 poppies were "openly" being worn. Of these worn around 25% were of the home made woollen variety. The poppy sellers with a table close by were largely ignored around 3 people in that same 15 minute period. The Sea Cadet opposite had zero donations.
I dont really buy the premise of wearing a poppy on the day only but accept a few will choose to do this and fair enough. In my entire lifetime it has never been that way we have always worn our poppy with pride in the approach to this very important and solemn event throughout our nation.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
Or maybe they're suffering from fatigue after having it thrust down their throats in a truly mawkish and indeed anachronistic fashion for a year. The BBC in particular should be ashamed of themselves and their appalling propaganda feeding off the deaths of millions to try and score modern points - it's one reason why I have cancelled my licence fee.
The reason I wasn't wearing my poppy today is bizarrely prosaic - when moving house, I packed my safety pins somewhere very safe and I can't remember where!
IMHO Remembrance Day is a specific day (either Remembrance Sunday, or Armistice Day itself). So may be appropriate to wear a poppy with pride between the Sunday and the 11th itself.
Wearing a poppy three weeks before Remembrance Sunday is a bit like opening your birthday presents three weeks early.
Agree
But its not 3 weeks early its tomorrow. I suppose they could sell them all on the one day? I was only pointing out the change that seems to have occurred even over a handful of years. Previously at this point it was difficult to find some one not wearing one.
Perhaps Ydoethur has a point . Perhaps it is this the more modern conflicts, how they are covered in media and the considered legality of them that has caused the change ? A change there has been though.
If this is true then Osborne is exposed as a liar:
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
I believe we get an extr. £ 850m rebate and like all other parts of the rebate that is presumably paid proportionately by the rest of the EU members. You can argue we should have realised this from the start but since the rebate was not indicated at the time I don't know how that would be. I don't understand why the Finnish finance minister et al are less liable to spin the facts than any other politician. You appear to want the negative explanation - so be it.
I was stood in local shopping centre of a small town in the south west waiting for Mrs Moses. I was there around 15 minutes with around 30 to 50 people passing me ( either way) every minute on average on a Saturday midday. I did a "pass by" snap poll over those minutes and noted that off the numbers passing me a total of only 42 poppies were "openly" being worn. Of these worn around 25% were of the home made woollen variety. The poppy sellers with a table close by were largely ignored around 3 people in that same 15 minute period. The Sea Cadet opposite had zero donations.
I dont really buy the premise of wearing a poppy on the day only but accept a few will choose to do this and fair enough. In my entire lifetime it has never been that way we have always worn our poppy with pride in the approach to this very important and solemn event throughout our nation.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
Or maybe they're suffering from fatigue after having it thrust down their throats in a truly mawkish and indeed anachronistic fashion for a year. The BBC in particular should be ashamed of themselves and their appalling propaganda feeding off the deaths of millions to try and score modern points - it's one reason why I have cancelled my licence fee.
The reason I wasn't wearing my poppy today is bizarrely prosaic - when moving house, I packed my safety pins somewhere very safe and I can't remember where!
IMHO Remembrance Day is a specific day (either Remembrance Sunday, or Armistice Day itself). So may be appropriate to wear a poppy with pride between the Sunday and the 11th itself.
Wearing a poppy three weeks before Remembrance Sunday is a bit like opening your birthday presents three weeks early.
Something to be said for winding the whole thing up with 2018 the last RS? I know it's meant to apply to victims of other wars but it's really so overwhelmingly about WWI - I feel if it lasts beyond the century it'll lose meaning till it ends up like Guy Fawkes night.
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
The Real North.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
The Real North?
That's Geordie Land. Including Mackems. Not "sort of" Southerners from South Yorks.
No, No, No!
Geordieland including Mackems is the Desolate North.
Yorkshire is the real North, the Garden of Eden was in the Peak District National Park
"A Left-wing strategy meeting called “Keep Notts UKIP Free” at the University of Nottingham descended into hilarious chaos when UKIP turned up to argue back. They attacked UKIP for being “extreme racists”, “idiots” and “something from 1930s Germany”.
Shreya Paudel said that UKIP “don’t stand for black or brown people” in society and Ruth Smeeth declared that UKIP are “exclusively made up of white men”.
The anger in the room was real but the debate from most people really focussed on “the bankers and the bonuses”, a “crisis in Capitalism” and rather surreally gender neutral toilets.
One notable speech featured a woman who proudly stood up and declared “I am a Lesbian and a Communist”. This was met by rapturous applause from the audience while she continued to spout about the occupy movement.
The UKIPers however could take no more of what the angry room had to say."
That's almost exactly how I imagine Dirty Dicks to be in about a fortnight!
I'm gutted that I'm in London from the 19th to the 20th of November! Missed it by one day.
Stay one more day.
Dooooo it.
Don't you know I'm from the real North, a packet of crisps in London costs a month's wages, never mind two nights in a hotel!
The Real North.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
The Real North?
That's Geordie Land. Including Mackems. Not "sort of" Southerners from South Yorks.
Never call someone from Sunderland a Geordie.
The North East, where you can drive 20 minutes and everyone hates you, but still not as much as if you were a southern softie.
Something to be said for winding the whole thing up with 2018 the last RS? I know it's meant to apply to victims of other wars but it's really so overwhelmingly about WWI - I feel if it lasts beyond the century it'll lose meaning till it ends up like Guy Fawkes night.
Possibly - but I would argue it will and should last until 2045. Admittedly, that's because as an historian of the 1920s and 1930s I tend to see 1914-45 as one war (aka 'The Second Thirty Years' War') with two major conflagrations interspersed with uneasy truces and local skirmishes.
I agree though that what would be rather more useful is if it wasn't so obsessively linked with the past. Even I get tired of it! The Poppy Appeal (which was renamed from the Earl Haig Fund a few years ago for that very reason) is still a very useful thing and more should be made to explain what it does, how and why rather than obsessing about the link to Flanders Fields, which most people no longer have even a vague family link to.
Bloody weather forecasters. I would've backed Massa at 3.15 to be top 3, but rain was forecast (and never arrived). Bah.
I was helping out at the parkrun this morning - one hour of standing out in movie-style heavy rain. Then it stopped and brightened up at 10am, exactly as forecast, after we'd finished.
I wouldn't normally anthropomorphise the weather, but that was bloody rude that was, and it's no comfort to me that I knew it was going to happen in advance.
If this is true then Osborne is exposed as a liar:
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
I believe we get an extr. £ 850m rebate and like all other parts of the rebate that is presumably paid proportionately by the rest of the EU members. You can argue we should have realised this from the start but since the rebate was not indicated at the time I don't know how that would be. I don't understand why the Finnish finance minister et al are less liable to spin the facts than any other politician. You appear to want the negative explanation - so be it.
The rebate WAS indicated at the time:
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
So remove the chief secretary to the treasury at the GE is an interesting target and potentially this will be more a punishment approach for supporting the coalition better together campaign. Winnable mmmmm not to sure .
On the other hand for me the more interesting seat in my opinion since 2010 has been Balls sitting On a rather postal vote weakish 1200 majority. It has to be one of the most juicy target seats going for an upset and given the stumbling of Labour leads, Balls constantly making the wrong calls as then proven it just has to be a huge Portillo moment in the offing.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
What have you got against the white poppy, really? A friend wears one - she's a pacifist and wants to remember the dead but feels the red poppy is too tied up with pride in the war wfforts over the years. There's nothing political in her views.
I don't agree with her myself (it seems to me that the official ceremonies do stress the losses rather than the wars), but she's a passionate Christian and trying to find a way to reconcile her beliefs with the need to remember the dead. Is that such an awful thing?
On the poppy question, when I was a young Stodge everyone wore a poppy and the ultimate status symbol was a poppy with a leaf - to have one of those meant you were a player, a dude, a man of wit, integrity and honour - or so I thought.
Nowadays, fewer people wear them and a number I see on the Underground of a morning have the metal poppy or brooch for the ladies. This seems to be the new status symbol and has the advantage of being reusable year after year.
If this is true then Osborne is exposed as a liar:
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
I believe we get an extr. £ 850m rebate and like all other parts of the rebate that is presumably paid proportionately by the rest of the EU members. You can argue we should have realised this from the start but since the rebate was not indicated at the time I don't know how that would be. I don't understand why the Finnish finance minister et al are less liable to spin the facts than any other politician. You appear to want the negative explanation - so be it.
No, I don't think my interpretation was exceptionally negative.
In fact I gave credit where credit was due. But I do want to see it as it is. When somebody can tell me who pays more as a result of us paying less, I'll believe we have had the bill cut. Until then, I'll just assume that the rebate, which was always due to us, is being used to pay the bill.
Canvass anecdotes as usual: busy week and several hundred contacted - responses much in line with recent weeks. If the electorate is convulsed with horror over either Cameron or Miliband they're concealing it well. As before, not many don't knows, lots of settled Lab/Con/UKIP votes, almost no LibDems.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see. Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed. Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
Canvass anecdotes as usual: busy week and several hundred contacted - responses much in line with recent weeks. If the electorate is convulsed with horror over either Cameron or Miliband they're concealing it well. As before, not many don't knows, lots of settled Lab/Con/UKIP votes, almost no LibDems.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see. Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed. Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
What have you got against the white poppy, really? A friend wears one - she's a pacifist and wants to remember the dead but feels the red poppy is too tied up with pride in the war wfforts over the years. There's nothing political in her views.
I don't agree with her myself (it seems to me that the official ceremonies do stress the losses rather than the wars), but she's a passionate Christian and trying to find a way to reconcile her beliefs with the need to remember the dead. Is that such an awful thing?
The white poppy also commemorates civilian deaths and is an explicit statement against future wars. I have worn it in the past, but not at work, and in combination with a red poppy too.
I think that WW1 is fading into history so speaks less to more recent generations, particularly in a multicultural setting. I note that my Polish and Greek colleagues mostly wear them, and a Sikh colleague wears a Khanda poppy. The Germans, Russians, Hindus and Muslims mostly do not.
Canvass anecdotes as usual: busy week and several hundred contacted - responses much in line with recent weeks. If the electorate is convulsed with horror over either Cameron or Miliband they're concealing it well. As before, not many don't knows, lots of settled Lab/Con/UKIP votes, almost no LibDems.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see. Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed. Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
Mr. Smithson, Johnson's got the common touch and he's very likeable. He also properly screwed up the GP renegotiation, which involved them getting more money for less work, failed at being Shadow Chancellor and (I believe) is on record saying he wouldn't be up to the job of PM.
However, he would be one of Labour's best options.
You have got to be joking!
As Education Secretary he led the attack on Faith Schools. That would kiss goodbye to a whole host of seats in Scotland, NW England plus countless seats elsewhere.
He wasn't Educn Sec in Scotland was he? Schools are devolved ... so some of that disadvantage can be discounted, presumably.
Now it can be revealed.
The reason I wanted Scotland to remain within the Union was precisely because Scottish Catholic MPs got the measure in 2006 overturned.
In fact, I wonder if the abandonment of Catholics by the Labour Party isn't a major reason for their collapse in Scotland. Perhaps Murphy can reverse that.
Traditionally, Scottish Nationalist surges have been blunted when they've had to move into Catholic areas. No longer, it seems.
Thanks. It would have been a strange mistake to make, so I was a bit diffident in inquiring!
That is a really strange article. Half of it is based on nothing more than a possible coincidence of names, which is very odd for such a supposedly reputable journal. Either verify properly or delete, was my reaction. It also shows a rather illiberal attitude to what people are allowed to vote for. I don't suppose the author would complain for a moment about large corporations sending people to work for his own favoured political party, which is far more than what he seems to be complaining about (or may not be, if it is the wrong person).
But most of all you must be a brave chap arguing here for Scottish votes on English laws!
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
I believe we get an extr. £ 850m rebate and like all other parts of the rebate that is presumably paid proportionately by the rest of the EU members. You can argue we should have realised this from the start but since the rebate was not indicated at the time I don't know how that would be. I don't understand why the Finnish finance minister et al are less liable to spin the facts than any other politician. You appear to want the negative explanation - so be it.
The rebate WAS indicated at the time:
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
Perhaps you could point us to angry politicians throughout the EU complaining about the 'extra £850m' you seem to think the UK is getting.
Everyone has seen the quote - tell me where it says the rebate will be £850m. Tell me the names of anyone who mentioned £850m after that press conference. Tell me why you think only British politicians uniquely spin their public utterances.
Jacek DOMINIK Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI) Press conference Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
I believe we get an extr. £ 850m rebate and like all other parts of the rebate that is presumably paid proportionately by the rest of the EU members. You can argue we should have realised this from the start but since the rebate was not indicated at the time I don't know how that would be. I don't understand why the Finnish finance minister et al are less liable to spin the facts than any other politician. You appear to want the negative explanation - so be it.
No, I don't think my interpretation was exceptionally negative.
In fact I gave credit where credit was due. But I do want to see it as it is. When somebody can tell me who pays more as a result of us paying less, I'll believe we have had the bill cut. Until then, I'll just assume that the rebate, which was always due to us, is being used to pay the bill.
Of course you will but neither you nor anyone else knew about that rebate amount until yesterday.
... for me the more interesting seat in my opinion since 2010 has been Balls sitting On a rather postal vote weakish 1200 majority. It has to be one of the most juicy target seats going for an upset and given the stumbling of Labour leads, Balls constantly making the wrong calls as then proven it just has to be a huge Portillo moment in the offing.
It's tempting to think it might be a northern seat where UKIP take more votes from Labour than from the Tories, but this is a seat that we have an Ashcroft constituency poll for. It's about six months old now, but the national Labour lead is only a little lower than it was then, so for what it is worth the poll was:
Labour 39% (+1.4) Conservative 27% (-8.3) UKIP 22% (+18.9) Liberal Democrat 6% (-10.8) Other 6% (-1.2)
UKIP take more votes from the Tories than from Labour by a ratio of 3:2 and Labour pick up almost the same number of Lib Dem 2010 voters as the Coalition parties combined.
Essentially Morley & Outwood looks like a fight between UKIP and the Conservatives for second place - and thus the moral high ground when it comes to arguing whose fault it is that a split non-Labour vote failed to remove so many Labour MPs.
The Government and the Treasury didn't know about this rebate until yesterday?!
Or they did and they kept quiet about it? Come on, Felix, you're beginning to resemble the last man on the Titanic to accept it is actually sinking. :-)
Canvass anecdotes as usual: busy week and several hundred contacted - responses much in line with recent weeks. If the electorate is convulsed with horror over either Cameron or Miliband they're concealing it well. As before, not many don't knows, lots of settled Lab/Con/UKIP votes, almost no LibDems.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see. Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed. Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
Mr. Smithson, Johnson's got the common touch and he's very likeable. He also properly screwed up the GP renegotiation, which involved them getting more money for less work, failed at being Shadow Chancellor and (I believe) is on record saying he wouldn't be up to the job of PM.
However, he would be one of Labour's best options.
You have got to be joking!
As Education Secretary he led the attack on Faith Schools. That would kiss goodbye to a whole host of seats in Scotland, NW England plus countless seats elsewhere.
He wasn't Educn Sec in Scotland was he? Schools are devolved ... so some of that disadvantage can be discounted, presumably.
Now it can be revealed.
The reason I wanted Scotland to remain within the Union was precisely because Scottish Catholic MPs got the measure in 2006 overturned.
In fact, I wonder if the abandonment of Catholics by the Labour Party isn't a major reason for their collapse in Scotland. Perhaps Murphy can reverse that.
Traditionally, Scottish Nationalist surges have been blunted when they've had to move into Catholic areas. No longer, it seems.
Canvass anecdotes as usual: busy week and several hundred contacted - responses much in line with recent weeks. If the electorate is convulsed with horror over either Cameron or Miliband they're concealing it well. As before, not many don't knows, lots of settled Lab/Con/UKIP votes, almost no LibDems.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see. Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed. Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
Does it look like comfortable Labour gain?
Nick's too modest to say he's going to win easily.
... for me the more interesting seat in my opinion since 2010 has been Balls sitting On a rather postal vote weakish 1200 majority. It has to be one of the most juicy target seats going for an upset and given the stumbling of Labour leads, Balls constantly making the wrong calls as then proven it just has to be a huge Portillo moment in the offing.
It's tempting to think it might be a northern seat where UKIP take more votes from Labour than from the Tories, but this is a seat that we have an Ashcroft constituency poll for. It's about six months old now, but the national Labour lead is only a little lower than it was then, so for what it is worth the poll was:
Labour 39% (+1.4) Conservative 27% (-8.3) UKIP 22% (+18.9) Liberal Democrat 6% (-10.8) Other 6% (-1.2)
UKIP take more votes from the Tories than from Labour by a ratio of 3:2 and Labour pick up almost the same number of Lib Dem 2010 voters as the Coalition parties combined.
Essentially Morley & Outwood looks like a fight between UKIP and the Conservatives for second place - and thus the moral high ground when it comes to arguing whose fault it is that a split non-Labour vote failed to remove so many Labour MPs.
Many politicians of the Left, from Roy Jenkins to Tony Blair have lamented the 'great split' on the left-centre of Labour and the Liberals. Looking at these kind of constituency polls for Liberals one begins to wonder whether the 100 year divide is coming to an end.
Mr. Smithson, Johnson's got the common touch and he's very likeable. He also properly screwed up the GP renegotiation, which involved them getting more money for less work, failed at being Shadow Chancellor and (I believe) is on record saying he wouldn't be up to the job of PM.
However, he would be one of Labour's best options.
You have got to be joking!
As Education Secretary he led the attack on Faith Schools. That would kiss goodbye to a whole host of seats in Scotland, NW England plus countless seats elsewhere.
He wasn't Educn Sec in Scotland was he? Schools are devolved ... so some of that disadvantage can be discounted, presumably.
Now it can be revealed.
The reason I wanted Scotland to remain within the Union was precisely because Scottish Catholic MPs got the measure in 2006 overturned.
In fact, I wonder if the abandonment of Catholics by the Labour Party isn't a major reason for their collapse in Scotland. Perhaps Murphy can reverse that.
Traditionally, Scottish Nationalist surges have been blunted when they've had to move into Catholic areas. No longer, it seems.
But most of all you must be a brave chap arguing here for Scottish votes on English laws!
If the SNP win as many seats as expected, then EVEL will be moot, as they follow a policy of non-participation.
Not entirely, to be sure, as Labour and the LDs will still have some MPs in Scottish seats, and the Tories too (though Mr Mundell MP has at least ometimes followed the SNP in abstaining).
If Salmond does stand in Inverness, Tories could well tactically vote for Alexander. The combined Tory/LD total in Inverness in 2010 was 54%, almost treble the 3rd placed SNP score and beating Salmond would be a big boost to the unionist cause coupled with devomax being placed on the statute book next year
The Government and the Treasury didn't know about this rebate until yesterday?!
Or they did and they kept quiet about it? Come on, Felix, you're beginning to resemble the last man on the Titanic to accept it is actually sinking. :-)
Can you quote me where Jack Dominik or anyone else indicates that the £850 m rebate would be applied against the bill and that the figures quoted by the Commission last week was therefore incorrect?
As I said earlier you prefer your version of the truth apparently because some EU politicians who never spin say so.
Canvass anecdotes as usual: busy week and several hundred contacted - responses much in line with recent weeks. If the electorate is convulsed with horror over either Cameron or Miliband they're concealing it well. As before, not many don't knows, lots of settled Lab/Con/UKIP votes, almost no LibDems.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see. Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed. Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
Does it look like comfortable Labour gain?
Nick's too modest to say he's going to win easily.
Although this going to be the weirdest election of our lifetimes, I think Broxtowe can pretty much definitely be put in the Labour box. Ladbrokes offering 2/7. Better than the bank.
... for me the more interesting seat in my opinion since 2010 has been Balls sitting On a rather postal vote weakish 1200 majority. It has to be one of the most juicy target seats going for an upset and given the stumbling of Labour leads, Balls constantly making the wrong calls as then proven it just has to be a huge Portillo moment in the offing.
It's tempting to think it might be a northern seat where UKIP take more votes from Labour than from the Tories, but this is a seat that we have an Ashcroft constituency poll for. It's about six months old now, but the national Labour lead is only a little lower than it was then, so for what it is worth the poll was:
Labour 39% (+1.4) Conservative 27% (-8.3) UKIP 22% (+18.9) Liberal Democrat 6% (-10.8) Other 6% (-1.2)
UKIP take more votes from the Tories than from Labour by a ratio of 3:2 and Labour pick up almost the same number of Lib Dem 2010 voters as the Coalition parties combined.
Essentially Morley & Outwood looks like a fight between UKIP and the Conservatives for second place - and thus the moral high ground when it comes to arguing whose fault it is that a split non-Labour vote failed to remove so many Labour MPs.
Many politicians of the Left, from Roy Jenkins to Tony Blair have lamented the 'great split' on the left-centre of Labour and the Liberals. Looking at these kind of constituency polls for Liberals one begins to wonder whether the 100 year divide is coming to an end.
I was thinking about Liberal Democrat prospects the other day, and I wondered whether the remaining pockets of the Liberal Party might benefit from the Lib Dem collapse in a few seats - such as Exeter - where they still stand.
It's plausible that the Lib Dems could end up sixth in a seat like Exeter at the next general election, behind Labour, Conservatives, UKIP, Greens and Liberals. No idea how likely.
Canvass anecdotes as usual: busy week and several hundred contacted - responses much in line with recent weeks. If the electorate is convulsed with horror over either Cameron or Miliband they're concealing it well. As before, not many don't knows, lots of settled Lab/Con/UKIP votes, almost no LibDems.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see. Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed. Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
Read on Conservative Home that Broxtowe is basicly the Rushcliffe seat that Ken Clarke won in 1970.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
What have you got against the white poppy, really? A friend wears one - she's a pacifist and wants to remember the dead but feels the red poppy is too tied up with pride in the war wfforts over the years. There's nothing political in her views.
I don't agree with her myself (it seems to me that the official ceremonies do stress the losses rather than the wars), but she's a passionate Christian and trying to find a way to reconcile her beliefs with the need to remember the dead. Is that such an awful thing?
I think you touch upon why some people object to the white poppy in your answer - as you say, the official remembrance is very much about recalling the losses, not some celebration of war pride anymore, so if someone is saying that they feel the red poppy is tied up with such feelings, and that they are pacifist and so could not possibly wear such a thing, even though they are not intending to make a political statement necessarily, it is very easy for someone else to implicitly see it as an accusation that those who are wearing the traditional red poppy are somehow glorifying terrible events, and being lectured by some holier than thou white poppy wearer, like someone announcing they are vegan and people assuming they are criticizing those who do eat meat, which they might also intend to do, but merely stating they are vegan does not mean they will do that.
Standard sort of misunderstanding really. I see the white poppy as unnecessary - I get the white one explicitly recalls civilian deaths too, but the red can just as easily include them - and so do many people, so it is easy to assume someone wearing a white one is making a statement, which no doubt some people are or else there would have been no need to create the white one in the first place, and so the argument begins over the worthiness of that statement and before too long people are arguing over things being commemorated the wrong way, when truth is no one should feel obligated to wear one in the first place, but many do.
White poppies are an excellent Idea - they identify the most vomit inducing handwringing metro- feeble wankers out there without having to engage with them - wish they would wear em all year...
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
What have you got against the white poppy, really? A friend wears one - she's a pacifist and wants to remember the dead but feels the red poppy is too tied up with pride in the war wfforts over the years. There's nothing political in her views.
I don't agree with her myself (it seems to me that the official ceremonies do stress the losses rather than the wars), but she's a passionate Christian and trying to find a way to reconcile her beliefs with the need to remember the dead. Is that such an awful thing?
Well Nick the meaning of the red poppy is established as the being the only thing that grew or was created in Flanders fields rather than killed is very symbolic. I agree the reason is fading into history as a number of posters have pointed out. Its just my view of course.
I just see the white poppy as more a political statement along the lines of the 1960's peace circle. I suppose the same could be said of the red poppy of course dependent on a persons view as you mentioned. Having visited a number of the battlefields and stood in battlefield cemeteries across the world on quiet reflection I would prefer to hope not.
Lying in bed sick with a cold. Blundering around the web trying to read something NOT about politics.
Found a paragraph that might resonate with Kippers. (To keep the ichthyological theme going.)
Only a few scholars have attempted to quantify the community relocations that gentrification causes. "In public policy circles," explains Angotti, "there's a refusal to incorporate displacement"—the departures of prior residents—"into the analysis of the discussion. Nobody counts displacement." But there are academic outliers: Lance Freeman, a professor of urban planning at Columbia University, tapped national databases on housing movements, and in his published work on Harlem and Clinton Hill found that, as neighborhoods gentrified, residents were more likely to move to less expensive homes nearby than to leave for less desirable areas.
White poppies are an excellent Idea - they identify the most vomit inducing handwringing metro- feeble wankers out there without having to engage with them - wish they would wear em all year...
You really couldn't have summarised that better TGOHF
I knew there was a good overlap but didn't know they were much the same - interesting, thanks. It was very safe Conservative up to 1997 (16% majority in 1992), when we had a 12.9% swing, which was huge even for that year. That's why I got selected - not many people thought we could win it, so the party felt they could take a punt on a businessman working in Switzerland. We've been a bit surprised to keep it in contention since then.
We're hopeful. It's not a very party political seat - most voters are familiar with both major party candidates and a lot of choices are made on that basis. There is still no LibDem candidate, let alone a LibDem effort, and a 17% LibDem vote. I need an 0.4% swing, and that's before we think about any UKIP impact. Many a slip etc. but we're quietly working hard, and the Conservatives are still mainly doing air war stuff.
There will be a dry run on December 11, with a by-election in the safest Tory ward, which the Tories will expect to hold easily. That should cast some light on how UKIP are doing.
I take kle's point on white poppies, by the way - I'm sure my friend doesn't mean to be aggressive, but I can see it might be taken that way.
kle4/RobD it is Angus Robertson the Moray MP and indeed Salmond will just expect him to stand aside so he can grab all the limelight in the HoC.
It'd be glorious if Salmond lost his election. I wouldn't really be too bothered about Ed being PM if that happened (momentarily not bothered, of course)
Comments
Which is why Farage said that the UK would pay up - because that's what the UK and every other country has done in the past.
Likewise in the years we get money back the UK and every other country accepts it.
But Cameron and Osborne thought they could turn the whole thing into some big showdown for electoral gain, gave it a load of big talk, discovered they had to pay up, agreed to pay up and then tried to lie their way out of the mess they'd got themselves in.
Serves them right for ruining their own proud reputation.
Bet England early and the other nations late is my humble advice.
France might be worth a punt. Fickou and Fofana are wonderful.
If QPR manage to draw then I have a tasty accumulator. Soton and Burnley to win and QPR to draw.
Opinium and YouGov out tonight.
I suspect the charge was overlooked at first and then became a potential political embarrassment. The Government decided to handle it by first throwing a tantrum and blaming the horrid EU, then negotiating easy payment terms and claiming it as a victory over said horrid EU.
It doesn't quite wash but no matter. At the end of the day, we are paying what was due, but later and without interest or penalties.
So we did get a result. And nobody was humiliated.
[Btw, I think 'lie' is a bit strong. There was certainly more than a touch of smoke and mirrors about it, but nothing that would make a Tesco Board Director blush.]
2014 will be 2003 Redux
Dooooo it.
Please keep us informed, we've learned that canvassing/on the ground reports of the out of touch Nats aren't reflected in the ballot box
Bloody weather forecasters. I would've backed Massa at 3.15 to be top 3, but rain was forecast (and never arrived). Bah.
Opinium generally carry out their fieldwork on Tues/Wed so might not have caught much of the EdM narrative. YouGov certainly should.
I was stood in local shopping centre of a small town in the south west waiting for Mrs Moses. I was there around 15 minutes with around 30 to 50 people passing me ( either way) every minute on average on a Saturday midday. I did a "pass by" snap poll over those minutes and noted that off the numbers passing me a total of only 42 poppies were "openly" being worn. Of these worn around 25% were of the home made woollen variety. The poppy sellers with a table close by were largely ignored around 3 people in that same 15 minute period. The Sea Cadet opposite had zero donations.
I dont really buy the premise of wearing a poppy on the day only but accept a few will choose to do this and fair enough. In my entire lifetime it has never been that way we have always worn our poppy with pride in the approach to this very important and solemn event throughout our nation.
It was a bit of a sobering reminder and rather a shock that on the eve of remberance sunday we seem to be forgetting rather than remembering. We are no longer showing we remember as we have always done in the past. I don't think many do wear a poppy with pride anymore or now even wear one at all some wear the horrible white poppy. It was never like this in the past.
Those that forget history etc etc............
On F1: I'm behind with some work. Current plan is to get that done then the pre-race piece, so that might be tomorrow morning.
You're from Sheffield, why didn't you say earlier.
Ah yes always that issue of course. Ok to be more accurate should have allowed +/- 3% MOE
The reason I wasn't wearing my poppy today is bizarrely prosaic - when moving house, I packed my safety pins somewhere very safe and I can't remember where!
Wearing a poppy three weeks before Remembrance Sunday is a bit like opening your birthday presents three weeks early.
That's Geordie Land. Including Mackems. Not "sort of" Southerners from South Yorks.
Certainly its the first year I've ever heard of the process and I suspect that applies to almost everyone else here.
But politicians do have a regrettable tendency to big things up and then have to big up the talk, smoke and mirrors as you say, to cover up their actions not matching their initial rhetoric. It makes me want to shout "FFS, stop telling me this crap, you're not fooling me".
I just wish they would tell things straight, underpromise and then overdeliver.
But its not 3 weeks early its tomorrow. I suppose they could sell them all on the one day? I was only pointing out the change that seems to have occurred even over a handful of years. Previously at this point it was difficult to find some one not wearing one.
Perhaps Ydoethur has a point . Perhaps it is this the more modern conflicts, how they are covered in media and the considered legality of them that has caused the change ? A change there has been though.
Geordieland including Mackems is the Desolate North.
Yorkshire is the real North, the Garden of Eden was in the Peak District National Park
-orum is the plural genitive for 2nd declension nouns, so supposing the Latinisation of Salmond is Salmondus then it should be
Malleus Salmondi
http://apps.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/advanced/popup/grammar-table.htm
I agree though that what would be rather more useful is if it wasn't so obsessively linked with the past. Even I get tired of it! The Poppy Appeal (which was renamed from the Earl Haig Fund a few years ago for that very reason) is still a very useful thing and more should be made to explain what it does, how and why rather than obsessing about the link to Flanders Fields, which most people no longer have even a vague family link to.
Could yet still be a profitable day today
I wouldn't normally anthropomorphise the weather, but that was bloody rude that was, and it's no comfort to me that I knew it was going to happen in advance.
Two races in a row I've not backed qualifying bets that would've proven profitable. Ah well.
Jacek DOMINIK
Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget
Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI)
Press conference
Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-14-723_en.htm
So we're not getting an extra £850m.
You appear to want to deny facts - so be it.
Perhaps you could point us to angry politicians throughout the EU complaining about the 'extra £850m' you seem to think the UK is getting.
BTW, what was the best ichthyological joke about Salmond and Sturgeon?
On the other hand for me the more interesting seat in my opinion since 2010 has been Balls sitting On a rather postal vote weakish 1200 majority. It has to be one of the most juicy target seats going for an upset and given the stumbling of Labour leads, Balls constantly making the wrong calls as then proven it just has to be a huge Portillo moment in the offing.
I don't agree with her myself (it seems to me that the official ceremonies do stress the losses rather than the wars), but she's a passionate Christian and trying to find a way to reconcile her beliefs with the need to remember the dead. Is that such an awful thing?
On the poppy question, when I was a young Stodge everyone wore a poppy and the ultimate status symbol was a poppy with a leaf - to have one of those meant you were a player, a dude, a man of wit, integrity and honour - or so I thought.
Nowadays, fewer people wear them and a number I see on the Underground of a morning have the metal poppy or brooch for the ladies. This seems to be the new status symbol and has the advantage of being reusable year after year.
In fact I gave credit where credit was due. But I do want to see it as it is. When somebody can tell me who pays more as a result of us paying less, I'll believe we have had the bill cut. Until then, I'll just assume that the rebate, which was always due to us, is being used to pay the bill.
My favourite this week was an elderly lady who's just moved here from Shropshire:
Lady: I don't know much about local affairs, you see.
Me: Well, it's a super-marginal, so you'll be much-wooed.
Lady (wistfully): That's nice - it's been a while since that happened...
Still i'm not buying it, yet.
(actually it should have been as Hart kicked a free kick against his own foot, double touch) Sky cleared it up at HT
That fellow is different class, surely a bigger move beckons?
I think that WW1 is fading into history so speaks less to more recent generations, particularly in a multicultural setting. I note that my Polish and Greek colleagues mostly wear them, and a Sikh colleague wears a Khanda poppy. The Germans, Russians, Hindus and Muslims mostly do not.
That is a really strange article. Half of it is based on nothing more than a possible coincidence of names, which is very odd for such a supposedly reputable journal. Either verify properly or delete, was my reaction. It also shows a rather illiberal attitude to what people are allowed to vote for. I don't suppose the author would complain for a moment about large corporations sending people to work for his own favoured political party, which is far more than what he seems to be complaining about (or may not be, if it is the wrong person).
But most of all you must be a brave chap arguing here for Scottish votes on English laws!
Jacek DOMINIK
Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget
Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI)
Press conference
Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-14-723_en.htm
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
I believe we get an extr. £ 850m rebate and like all other parts of the rebate that is presumably paid proportionately by the rest of the EU members. You can argue we should have realised this from the start but since the rebate was not indicated at the time I don't know how that would be. I don't understand why the Finnish finance minister et al are less liable to spin the facts than any other politician. You appear to want the negative explanation - so be it.
The rebate WAS indicated at the time:
Jacek DOMINIK
Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget
Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI)
Press conference
Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-14-723_en.htm
So we're not getting an extra £850m.
You appear to want to deny facts - so be it.
Perhaps you could point us to angry politicians throughout the EU complaining about the 'extra £850m' you seem to think the UK is getting.
Everyone has seen the quote - tell me where it says the rebate will be £850m. Tell me the names of anyone who mentioned £850m after that press conference. Tell me why you think only British politicians uniquely spin their public utterances.
Jacek DOMINIK
Commissioner for Financial Programming and Budget
Jacek Dominik's statement on the revision of member states' gross national income (GNI)
Press conference
Brussels, 27 October 2014
"Let me point out in this respect that the UK will benefit from the UK rebate for the additional payments in 2014."
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_SPEECH-14-723_en.htm
On this subject can anyone provide an example when UK-EU financial transactions were deemed to have no effect on the UK Rebate ?
No he isn't. You are missing the point - everyone including the Balls, Farage, etc missed this point because it is completely unclear what any rebate might be. 50% is a very tidy amount of the original total of 1.7B. which no-one predicted the other week. If they had you might have a point. you also ignore the delay in the payment and the removal of the threat to charge interest. You are allowing your hatred of Osborne to cloud your judgement.
Felix, your argument will be considerably enhanced if you can tell us which country or countries will be picking up the tab for the 850,000 which the UK is no longer paying.
I presume as before the rest of the countries fund the rebate between them. Otherwise it can't be given to the UK. Are you suggesting we never really get the rebate now? Another killer conspiracy theory?
Oh, so we did get a discount then, despite what the Finnish Minister for Finance stated?
I believe we get an extr. £ 850m rebate and like all other parts of the rebate that is presumably paid proportionately by the rest of the EU members. You can argue we should have realised this from the start but since the rebate was not indicated at the time I don't know how that would be. I don't understand why the Finnish finance minister et al are less liable to spin the facts than any other politician. You appear to want the negative explanation - so be it.
No, I don't think my interpretation was exceptionally negative.
In fact I gave credit where credit was due. But I do want to see it as it is. When somebody can tell me who pays more as a result of us paying less, I'll believe we have had the bill cut. Until then, I'll just assume that the rebate, which was always due to us, is being used to pay the bill.
Of course you will but neither you nor anyone else knew about that rebate amount until yesterday.
Labour 39% (+1.4)
Conservative 27% (-8.3)
UKIP 22% (+18.9)
Liberal Democrat 6% (-10.8)
Other 6% (-1.2)
UKIP take more votes from the Tories than from Labour by a ratio of 3:2 and Labour pick up almost the same number of Lib Dem 2010 voters as the Coalition parties combined.
Essentially Morley & Outwood looks like a fight between UKIP and the Conservatives for second place - and thus the moral high ground when it comes to arguing whose fault it is that a split non-Labour vote failed to remove so many Labour MPs.
The Government and the Treasury didn't know about this rebate until yesterday?!
Or they did and they kept quiet about it? Come on, Felix, you're beginning to resemble the last man on the Titanic to accept it is actually sinking. :-)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Can-Count-Your-Support-Canvassing/dp/0091662508
worthwhile. It had some highly amusing tales.
As I said earlier you prefer your version of the truth apparently because some EU politicians who never spin say so.
It's plausible that the Lib Dems could end up sixth in a seat like Exeter at the next general election, behind Labour, Conservatives, UKIP, Greens and Liberals. No idea how likely.
Did you know that?
http://www.conservativehome.com/thecolumnists/2014/11/lewis-baston-how-the-electoral-landscape-has-changed-since-the-1964-election-over-50-years-ago.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29273172
Standard sort of misunderstanding really. I see the white poppy as unnecessary - I get the white one explicitly recalls civilian deaths too, but the red can just as easily include them - and so do many people, so it is easy to assume someone wearing a white one is making a statement, which no doubt some people are or else there would have been no need to create the white one in the first place, and so the argument begins over the worthiness of that statement and before too long people are arguing over things being commemorated the wrong way, when truth is no one should feel obligated to wear one in the first place, but many do.
I just see the white poppy as more a political statement along the lines of the 1960's peace circle. I suppose the same could be said of the red poppy of course dependent on a persons view as you mentioned. Having visited a number of the battlefields and stood in battlefield cemeteries across the world on quiet reflection I would prefer to hope not.
Found a paragraph that might resonate with Kippers. (To keep the ichthyological theme going.)
Only a few scholars have attempted to quantify the community relocations that gentrification causes. "In public policy circles," explains Angotti, "there's a refusal to incorporate displacement"—the departures of prior residents—"into the analysis of the discussion. Nobody counts displacement." But there are academic outliers: Lance Freeman, a professor of urban planning at Columbia University, tapped national databases on housing movements, and in his published work on Harlem and Clinton Hill found that, as neighborhoods gentrified, residents were more likely to move to less expensive homes nearby than to leave for less desirable areas.
http://m.curbed.com/archives/2014/11/05/tracing-the-history-of-a-word-as-gentrification-turns-50.php
Is it the Conservative Party ?
There will be a dry run on December 11, with a by-election in the safest Tory ward, which the Tories will expect to hold easily. That should cast some light on how UKIP are doing.
I take kle's point on white poppies, by the way - I'm sure my friend doesn't mean to be aggressive, but I can see it might be taken that way.
#webackEd to lead us to the Promised Land*
*some time in the wilderness may be required
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B18RmRyCcAAJrhP.jpg