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  • Mr. Corporeal, cheers :)
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh 1m1 minute ago
    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected

    Before, during or after Dave's speech?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills
  • Smarmeron said:

    Interesting statement
    "Turning to human rights, Chris Grayling says it is "crazy" that a terror suspect can "claim their human rights to stay here""
    "Suspect" means you are innocent until proved guilty? Unless they intend to change our law?

    I would have thought, too, that throwing a terror suspect out means you can’t get at them to prosecute them! Should they be running about in Syria or Iraq, or on remand in UK?
    Surely the case being imagined here is of someone who is wanted by a foreign country on charges related to terrorism but who is using UK laws to try to avoid deportation.

    The balance of human rights legislation is wrong - and needs to be addressed.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,054
    Wonderful day for statistical analysis today. No real world connotations though. What people care about is if they have a job and if they have enoughoney left after basic expenses to afford a few luxuries. The RHDI figure is crooked as it includes charities and there is no breakdown within that. It is difficult to say whether real disposable income is rising or not. I would say no for 2011-2013 and yes since then as the major sector that has been dragging on pay growth is banking and finance.

    Whether or not this will convert to votes remains to be seen. I'm not so sure that voters do thanks. For me the next election may be one to lose for the Tories so they can clear out the Cameroons and bring in a right winger to draw back UKIP voters in opposition to what is going to be a deeply unpopular Labour government. If a majority ever comes into sight then its differentbut with the electoral advantage Labour have under FPTP it just isn't on the cards.
  • DavidL said:


    "In Q2 2014, GDP was estimated to have been 2.7% higher than the pre-economic downturn peak of Q1 2008, having first exceeded this peak in Q3 2013."


    The claim that this has been the slowest recovery from a major recession is now consigned to the same bucket as the double dip, the treble dip and various other fantasies. If growth or employment is the measure of success this has been a stunningly successful government. If deficit reduction is then they have done well but no doubt would have liked to have done better.

    There is no question, sutainable growth having been attained, that the priority of the next government is and must be deficit reduction. All good Keynesians will recognise that. No wonder Ed was so focussed on the implications...

    As Patrick noted the other day, the problem is that the electorate cannot or will not understand that current spending is unaffordable. It will therefore eject anyone who says it is and wants to do anything about it.

    When you factor in that Labour can get a working majority with 35% of the vote, and is determined to pander to those of this mindset by telling them that taxing the rich will pay for everything, we have a recipe for eventual disaster. It has always been possible for 51% to vote to expropriate the other 49% but we now have a situation whereby 35% can vote to ruin the other 65%.

    In the meantime it seems clear that the WWC are being drawn into the fold of those Labour considers rich, and therefore feels entitled to hate.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    Not sure why GP's have to be open on Sunday .Its not an emergency service is it?

    Politicians should consider working themselves on Sundays if they promise others will have to do so
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Recent comment from Jeremy Hunt, as reported on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29421954)

    "Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says 5,000 more GPs will be trained to provide care at weekends and in the evening."

    Does this mean 5000 GP’s will have extra training or 5000 new GP’s will be trained? Perhaps Dr Fox can remind of us of how long it takes to train a GP.
  • isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    David Davis is a busted flush interested in his own ego and the sound of his own voice. He isn't the liberal champion you think he is.

    And of course Doctors are going to object to having to change their working patterns - but given how much money many, many GPs earn, they should be doing a lot more to serve the needs of their patients. If only the last Labour government hadn't screwed up the renegotiation of GP contracts....
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @oxfordsimon
    So, is he against the European arrest warrants then? If he is, there could be a slight logical inconsistency?
  • I too preferred Davis more conversational style of interviewing:

    http://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/30/newsnight-evan-davis-cameron-review-paxman?CMP=twt_gu

    I remember when he started on R4 his 'friendly don with a bright pupil who he suspects may be lying' is a lot more effective than the Paxman machine gun.....

    I agree, after I got over the LOTR ears.
    I was a big fan of Paxman so maybe I am biased a bit but Evan davis gets too emotional at times (look at or hear his radio 4 interview with Osborne). I like Newsnight to be an intelligent but relaxing discussion of events with a dabbing of humour (Paxman was perfect) which I am not sure Evan Davis is going to do
    You are a creature of habit, is all.

    I used to think Doctor Who should be like Patrick Troughton, but by the time Tom Baker came along I thought he was doing it insufficiently like Jon Pertwee.
  • I think Lord A is doing a poll in H&M.... Gord bless you sir.

    Labour have let it be known that they are very worried about next week’s Heywood and Middleton by-election. But Nigel Farage says the seat is probably “too big a mountain to climb” for UKIP. Are they both bluffing? If only someone would do a poll and find out what is really going on…

    http://www.conservativehome.com/platform/2014/09/69578.html
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    David Davis is a busted flush interested in his own ego and the sound of his own voice. He isn't the liberal champion you think he is.

    And of course Doctors are going to object to having to change their working patterns - but given how much money many, many GPs earn, they should be doing a lot more to serve the needs of their patients. If only the last Labour government hadn't screwed up the renegotiation of GP contracts....
    Oxfordsimon the mind reader

    Don't shoot the messenger
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099

    PB is useless, when you need a lawyer, there are none around, then I bet a bunch of them come along all at once.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300

    Mr. L, not a bad idea. Al Capone, after all, went down due to tax evasion [I think].

    Dr. Spyn, passing a new law gets you an exciting positive headline. Much more fun than actually enforcing the existing ones (cf media regulation).

    I remain wholly unconvinced that justice will be done to even a majority of the scum involved. A few will probably go down, but it'll be a small proportion of the perpetrators. Just my guess, but there we are.

    Never been convinced that offering changes in laws at party conferences really does anything other than throw raw meat to the balcony. It may also result in poorly thought out plans - Dangerous Dogs Act? May is very much the wanting to be seen to be doing something by wasting time bringing in new laws rather than getting on with using powers to hand.

    The Mirror have apologised, reminds me of Billy Connelly's joke - Someone's fucked the bride, the weddings off....dinnae worry, its back on, he's apologised.
  • isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    Not sure why GP's have to be open on Sunday .Its not an emergency service is it?
    Well for many people, it is their first port of call in times of medical problems. Surgery hours don't cater well for those people in work - and with the reduction in out of hours cover that came with Labour's renegotiation of GP contracts, the ability to see your GP has been reduced. This has put major pressure on A&E departments who are seeing people who could have been dealt with in other places.

    So increasing access to GPs is a necessary and a good thing
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Recent comment from Jeremy Hunt, as reported on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29421954)

    "Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says 5,000 more GPs will be trained to provide care at weekends and in the evening."

    Does this mean 5000 GP’s will have extra training or 5000 new GP’s will be trained? Perhaps Dr Fox can remind of us of how long it takes to train a GP.

    Import them I would think
  • Oh god, what have I done.....

    I've done a link to UKIP/con home.....

    Sin bin for me.
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    David Davis is a busted flush interested in his own ego and the sound of his own voice. He isn't the liberal champion you think he is.

    And of course Doctors are going to object to having to change their working patterns - but given how much money many, many GPs earn, they should be doing a lot more to serve the needs of their patients. If only the last Labour government hadn't screwed up the renegotiation of GP contracts....
    Oxfordsimon the mind reader

    Don't shoot the messenger
    I am not shooting the messenger - just pointing out that the messages you are selectively passing on may not show the full picture...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Smarmeron said:

    Interesting statement
    "Turning to human rights, Chris Grayling says it is "crazy" that a terror suspect can "claim their human rights to stay here""
    "Suspect" means you are innocent until proved guilty? Unless they intend to change our law?

    I would have thought, too, that throwing a terror suspect out means you can’t get at them to prosecute them! Should they be running about in Syria or Iraq, or on remand in UK?
    Surely the case being imagined here is of someone who is wanted by a foreign country on charges related to terrorism but who is using UK laws to try to avoid deportation.

    The balance of human rights legislation is wrong - and needs to be addressed.
    So if a (say) Chinese or Russian dissident gets here, and their government wants them back, all they have to do is state that they are wanted on “terrorist” charges?
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939
    edited September 2014

    Miss Cyclefree, apparently both the Sun and the Mail (or Mail on Sunday, I forget which) turned the story down.

    Furthermore, Maguire's rubbish claim it's in 'the public interest' because of the MP's job simply doesn't stack up, because contact was made with a significant number of (exclusively Conservative) MPs.

    Why is it that when young female slebs had their naked photos misappropriated they got sympathy and the perp scorn and the attention of law enforcement; whereas when a Tory MP's naked photos are misappropriated, he gets the scorn, and the perp gets off scot free?

    Has there really been no crime committed here by the journalist?

  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,818
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    Recent comment from Jeremy Hunt, as reported on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29421954)

    "Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says 5,000 more GPs will be trained to provide care at weekends and in the evening."

    Does this mean 5000 GP’s will have extra training or 5000 new GP’s will be trained? Perhaps Dr Fox can remind of us of how long it takes to train a GP.

    Import them I would think
    You make an important point that if this new policy is to be implemented then either GPs will have to work longer hours (who wants that? least of all Gp's) or they will have to import GP's . This is probably not that ethical as they are likely to come from countries that need medical personal more than we do.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    isam said:

    Recent comment from Jeremy Hunt, as reported on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29421954)

    "Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says 5,000 more GPs will be trained to provide care at weekends and in the evening."

    Does this mean 5000 GP’s will have extra training or 5000 new GP’s will be trained? Perhaps Dr Fox can remind of us of how long it takes to train a GP.

    Import them I would think
    From countries which can ill-afford to lose them? As happened in the past.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited September 2014

    isam said:

    isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    David Davis is a busted flush interested in his own ego and the sound of his own voice. He isn't the liberal champion you think he is.

    And of course Doctors are going to object to having to change their working patterns - but given how much money many, many GPs earn, they should be doing a lot more to serve the needs of their patients. If only the last Labour government hadn't screwed up the renegotiation of GP contracts....
    Oxfordsimon the mind reader

    Don't shoot the messenger
    I am not shooting the messenger - just pointing out that the messages you are selectively passing on may not show the full picture...
    I just turned the TV on and that was the news from the conference, so sorry

    Lib dem lord also critical but I suppose he would be
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited September 2014
    @oxfordsimon
    24/7 doctors surgeries? I mean the supermarkets manage it?
    Off topic, but when Margret "smashed the unions", she left quite a few alone.
    "we had to stuff their mouths with gold" (I may be paraphrasing)
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    No what the doctors really are saying is we've got used to working 8.30 - 5.30 Mon - Fri on £160k a year so can't be blowed to go back to the pre 2004 contract days when we didn't have it so good. Alan so called nice guy Johnson has a lot to answer for if he was the architect of that particular example of Labour profligacy.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014
    isam said:



    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Funny that - would working the odd Sunday disrupt their golfing plans? Or is it an excuse to whine for more money?


  • pbr2013pbr2013 Posts: 649



    Well the free schools and the academies seem to manage perfectly well without them.

    (I'd imagine there are some - centralised procurement - that could be useful. And lots - like policy work, administration, central planning, union support, etc - that may have less obvious value)

    Sensory impairment services and pupil referral units are provided at LEA level.
  • Smarmeron said:

    Interesting statement
    "Turning to human rights, Chris Grayling says it is "crazy" that a terror suspect can "claim their human rights to stay here""
    "Suspect" means you are innocent until proved guilty? Unless they intend to change our law?

    I would have thought, too, that throwing a terror suspect out means you can’t get at them to prosecute them! Should they be running about in Syria or Iraq, or on remand in UK?
    Surely the case being imagined here is of someone who is wanted by a foreign country on charges related to terrorism but who is using UK laws to try to avoid deportation.

    The balance of human rights legislation is wrong - and needs to be addressed.
    So if a (say) Chinese or Russian dissident gets here, and their government wants them back, all they have to do is state that they are wanted on “terrorist” charges?
    Did I say that? No.

    The hypothetical case you are trying to create would still, as with any other case, have to be subject to due process under the legal and treaty obligations between the UK and the state seeking to extradite a suspect.

    The point with Human Rights legislation and those who would seek to reform it is that it is being used in ways that were never envisaged by those who drew up the legislation and that far exceed the scope of what is reasonable.

    The balance is wrong - and it needs to be sorted otherwise our legal system will fall even further into disrepute.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Miss Cyclefree, apparently both the Sun and the Mail (or Mail on Sunday, I forget which) turned the story down.

    Furthermore, Maguire's rubbish claim it's in 'the public interest' because of the MP's job simply doesn't stack up, because contact was made with a significant number of (exclusively Conservative) MPs.

    Why is it than when young female slebs had their naked photos misappropriated they got sympathy and the perp scorn and the attention of law enforcement; whereas when a Tory MP's naked photos are misappropriated he gets the scorn and the perp gets off scot free?

    Has there really been no crime committed here by the journalist?

    I'm not an expert in this area of the law but using someone's photo without their consent to pass them off as someone else (as has happened to the two women) seems highly questionable to me. Arguably, it could amount to defamation.

    Maybe a legal eagle with expertise can comment?

  • isam said:



    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Funny that - do they want more money?
    but it is isn't it? Do you work 7 days a week? Does Jeremy Hunt? Doctors are very skilled and sought after . They need a bit more respect that to be told of an alteration of their conditions during a party conference
  • isam said:

    Recent comment from Jeremy Hunt, as reported on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29421954)

    "Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says 5,000 more GPs will be trained to provide care at weekends and in the evening."

    Does this mean 5000 GP’s will have extra training or 5000 new GP’s will be trained? Perhaps Dr Fox can remind of us of how long it takes to train a GP.

    Import them I would think
    You make an important point that if this new policy is to be implemented then either GPs will have to work longer hours (who wants that? least of all Gp's) or they will have to import GP's . This is probably not that ethical as they are likely to come from countries that need medical personal more than we do.
    GPs won't necessarily have to work longer hours - they will have to work different hours. Hours that suit the needs of the patients rather than the medical profession.

    GPs are paid handsomely - and that is quite right given the level of care they provide. But it has to be balanced by the fact the people don't get ill just within a 9-5/Monday - Friday working week.

    Labour screwed up the GP contract negotiation 10 years ago - and it has taken a long time to work to put that right.
  • isam said:



    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Funny that - do they want more money?
    but it is isn't it? Do you work 7 days a week? Does Jeremy Hunt? Doctors are very skilled and sought after . They need a bit more respect that to be told of an alteration of their conditions during a party conference
    Er? It just means that Doctors have to be more flexible. Tesco's is open 7 days a week, does everyone at tescos work every day? Of course not...
  • isam said:



    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Funny that - would working the odd Sunday disrupt their golfing plans? Or is it an excuse to whine for more money?


    oh FGS Sunday is for relaxing and golf (if that what floats your boat) . You cannot expect people(who have studied for years and work hard already) to work longer or change work patterns at a stroke of a party conference speech
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    pbr2013 said:


    Well the free schools and the academies seem to manage perfectly well without them.

    (I'd imagine there are some - centralised procurement - that could be useful. And lots - like policy work, administration, central planning, union support, etc - that may have less obvious value)

    Sensory impairment services and pupil referral units are provided at LEA level.

    What do free schools about pupils who need to be referred under either of these circumstances.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Smarmeron said:

    @oxfordsimon
    "we had to stuff their mouths with gold" (I may be paraphrasing)

    I think that was Aneurin Bevan saying that about doctors when the NHS was first created. The doctors were opposed.

  • Mr. Bond, it's not quite the same (the pictures weren't outright stolen, although it's a fine line), but I agree that the Mirror has not covered itself in glory.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @oxfordsimon
    Expecting professionals to work 24/7 shifts "rotating".....only "plebs" and the lower orders do that sort of thing.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,556
    Cyclefree said:

    Miss Cyclefree, apparently both the Sun and the Mail (or Mail on Sunday, I forget which) turned the story down.

    Furthermore, Maguire's rubbish claim it's in 'the public interest' because of the MP's job simply doesn't stack up, because contact was made with a significant number of (exclusively Conservative) MPs.

    Why is it than when young female slebs had their naked photos misappropriated they got sympathy and the perp scorn and the attention of law enforcement; whereas when a Tory MP's naked photos are misappropriated he gets the scorn and the perp gets off scot free?

    Has there really been no crime committed here by the journalist?

    I'm not an expert in this area of the law but using someone's photo without their consent to pass them off as someone else (as has happened to the two women) seems highly questionable to me. Arguably, it could amount to defamation.

    Maybe a legal eagle with expertise can comment?

    this was an interesting view on the matter from a legal perspective.....

    http://barristerblogger.com/2014/09/28/tricked-sex-fraud-sunday-mirrors-sting-brookes-newmark-criminal/
  • isam said:



    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Funny that - would working the odd Sunday disrupt their golfing plans? Or is it an excuse to whine for more money?


    oh FGS Sunday is for relaxing and golf (if that what floats your boat) . You cannot expect people(who have studied for years and work hard already) to work longer or change work patterns at a stroke of a party conference speech
    Oh yes, a 6 year transition period to new working patterns is really demanding...

    The aim is to have this in place by 2020, not next week.
  • Oh god, what have I done.....

    I've done a link to UKIP/con home.....

    Sin bin for me.

    Well, you're going to become a fan of Sol Campbell again

    Here's some of Sol's tweets today

    Sol Campbell @SolManOfficial · 2h

    #MansionTax? Why should we except this? @UKLabour are the grim reaper of business entrepreneurs or anyone that has done well!

    Sol Campbell @SolManOfficial · 2h

    Think out of the box @UKLabour. Don't go back, look forward. An Englishman's home is his castle, there will be uproar with this tax!

    Sol Campbell @SolManOfficial · 2h

    Look after the needy and embrace the people and companies who make this country great! Listen to @George_Osborne @Conservatives last night!

    His full twitter feed is worth a view

    https://twitter.com/SolManOfficial
  • Smarmeron said:

    @oxfordsimon
    Expecting professionals to work 24/7 shifts "rotating".....only "plebs" and the lower orders do that sort of thing.

    Under your definition, a hospital doctor is a pleb.

    Would you like to tell them - or shall I do it for you?
  • Norm said:

    isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    No what the doctors really are saying is we've got used to working 8.30 - 5.30 Mon - Fri on £160k a year so can't be blowed to go back to the pre 2004 contract days when we didn't have it so good. Alan so called nice guy Johnson has a lot to answer for if he was the architect of that particular Labour largesse.
    GP partners get about £100k and salaried GPs £80k. You must remember that a couple of decades back we faced a shortage of GPs as so many were retiring. It is ironic that GPs can be seen as private contractors to the NHS, contrary to the prejudices of left and right. The out-of-hours services are also private contractors for the most part.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704

    Smarmeron said:

    Interesting statement
    "Turning to human rights, Chris Grayling says it is "crazy" that a terror suspect can "claim their human rights to stay here""
    "Suspect" means you are innocent until proved guilty? Unless they intend to change our law?

    I would have thought, too, that throwing a terror suspect out means you can’t get at them to prosecute them! Should they be running about in Syria or Iraq, or on remand in UK?
    Surely the case being imagined here is of someone who is wanted by a foreign country on charges related to terrorism but who is using UK laws to try to avoid deportation.

    The balance of human rights legislation is wrong - and needs to be addressed.
    So if a (say) Chinese or Russian dissident gets here, and their government wants them back, all they have to do is state that they are wanted on “terrorist” charges?
    Did I say that? No.

    The hypothetical case you are trying to create would still, as with any other case, have to be subject to due process under the legal and treaty obligations between the UK and the state seeking to extradite a suspect.

    The point with Human Rights legislation and those who would seek to reform it is that it is being used in ways that were never envisaged by those who drew up the legislation and that far exceed the scope of what is reasonable.

    The balance is wrong - and it needs to be sorted otherwise our legal system will fall even further into disrepute.
    Fair point. It’s not unreasonable to review laws from time to time, since circumstances change, and interpretations create a diffrent situation to what was either intended or envisaged.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @oxfordsimon
    GP,s services are "private" contractors, the doctors who work overnight are generally the less specialized ones..?
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Recent comment from Jeremy Hunt, as reported on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29421954)

    "Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says 5,000 more GPs will be trained to provide care at weekends and in the evening."

    Does this mean 5000 GP’s will have extra training or 5000 new GP’s will be trained? Perhaps Dr Fox can remind of us of how long it takes to train a GP.

    Import them I would think
    From countries which can ill-afford to lose them? As happened in the past.
    I suppose so
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited September 2014
    Oxfordsimon

    Is 160k not an astonishingly excessive amount? That's over 7 times median pay. What has been the YoY average increase in GP pay since 1997? (vs average pay across the economy or GDP growth?). If we had a truly free market in health services (incl GP) paid for by the state but you choose who to go to then GP practices would have to compete for business. The real market value of a GP we would discover is WAY below 160k. They are effectively state monopolistic rent seekers. Likewise teachers. We love them and we need them both - but we don't need to be paying them all more than the Prime Minister FFS!

    Free markets in state funded education and health would transform the quality and cost of provision. This model has a very limited market today. But come the post New New Labour world things will be looking ALOT different. ;-)
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014

    isam said:



    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Funny that - do they want more money?
    but it is isn't it? Do you work 7 days a week? Does Jeremy Hunt? Doctors are very skilled and sought after . They need a bit more respect that to be told of an alteration of their conditions during a party conference
    They're not being asked to work 7 days a week - just change working patterns so that some are available to see patients at the weekend. It's not difficult - they could work the Saturday and play golf on a Monday. FFS they 'negotiated' cracking deals with Alan Johnson - how about they actually serve those paying their 6 figure salaries.

    And yes, I do work 6/7 day weeks if required. It's not difficult, and I'm rewarded for doing so.
  • Smarmeron said:

    @oxfordsimon
    GP,s services are "private" contractors, the doctors who work overnight are generally the less specialized ones..?

    That doesn't diminish the fact that we have highly skilled professionals who do work a whole range of hours 7 days a week.

    No-one is proposing that GPs operate their surgeries 24/7 - but it is reasonable to ask that GP cover is provided over as wide a range of hours and days as possible to suit the needs of patients.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I once heard Ken Clark say on QT that the doctors were by far the most militant union he ever had to deal with.
  • taffys said:

    I once heard Ken Clark say on QT that the doctors were by far the most militant union he ever had to deal with.

    yeah that's why they never strike.
  • Theresa May slagging of the Lib Dems.
  • Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 33m

    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected
  • Patrick said:

    Oxfordsimon

    Is 160k not an astonishingly excessive amount? That's over 7 times median pay. What has been the YoY average increase in GP pay since 1997? (vs average pay across the economy or GDP growth?). If we had a truly free market in health services (incl GP) paid for by the state but you choose who to go to then GP practices would have to compete for business. The real market value of a GP we would discover is WAY below 160k. They are effectively state monopolistic rent seekers. Likewise teachers. We love them and we need them both - but we don't need to be paying them all more than the Prime Minister FFS!

    Free markets in state funded education and health would transform the quality and cost of provision. This model has a very limited market today. But come the post New New Labour world things will be looking ALOT different. ;-)

    As has been pointed out, there is wide range of incomes within the GP sector - and we can blame Alan Johnson for getting the last major GP contract negotiation so wrong.

    The system is not working for patients at the moment - and so reform is necessary to make sure that it does.

    And yes, I believe we should be putting patients first in planning such things.
  • Paul Waugh ‏@paulwaugh

    Sol Campbell told @sammacrory: most footballers "start Labour...as time goes on most of them go to the Conservatives" http://www.totalpolitics.com/articles/446102/sol-searching-sol-campbell-interview.thtml
  • Theresa May slagging of the Lib Dems.

    Works for the LibDems, they probably asked her to do it.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @oxfordsimon
    Yes we have highly skilled professionals. but there are hierarchies, and they are proposing to "downgrade" one section of it.
    You can see the BMA sucking it's teeth and saying "gonna cost you mate"
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:



    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Funny that - do they want more money?
    but it is isn't it? Do you work 7 days a week? Does Jeremy Hunt? Doctors are very skilled and sought after . They need a bit more respect that to be told of an alteration of their conditions during a party conference
    Er? It just means that Doctors have to be more flexible. Tesco's is open 7 days a week, does everyone at tescos work every day? Of course not...
    I would have thought it easier to get people with the relevant skills for tesco is than it is for being a doctor

    It can be done without seeing doctors who are under qualified or knackered, import doctors from abroad. How that leaves their country is another matter

    I thought the polish private doctors opening up we're doing this anyway?

    But anyway no real opinion myself just passing on the GP on TVs reaction
  • Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 33m

    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected

    I would hope Cammo will have a bit of text for his speech ready to cover any new pig dog traitor announcement tomorrow to rebut it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Precisely. Different not necessarily more. And if it is an extra hour or so more - I won't be crying for them.

    isam said:

    Recent comment from Jeremy Hunt, as reported on BBC (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29421954)

    "Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt says 5,000 more GPs will be trained to provide care at weekends and in the evening."

    Does this mean 5000 GP’s will have extra training or 5000 new GP’s will be trained? Perhaps Dr Fox can remind of us of how long it takes to train a GP.

    Import them I would think
    You make an important point that if this new policy is to be implemented then either GPs will have to work longer hours (who wants that? least of all Gp's) or they will have to import GP's . This is probably not that ethical as they are likely to come from countries that need medical personal more than we do.
    GPs won't necessarily have to work longer hours - they will have to work different hours. Hours that suit the needs of the patients rather than the medical profession.

    GPs are paid handsomely - and that is quite right given the level of care they provide. But it has to be balanced by the fact the people don't get ill just within a 9-5/Monday - Friday working week.

    Labour screwed up the GP contract negotiation 10 years ago - and it has taken a long time to work to put that right.
  • Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 33m

    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected

    I would hope Cammo will have a bit of text for his speech ready to cover any new pig dog traitor announcement tomorrow to rebut it.
    Yup, you seen the Arse Sol tweets below?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    There appears to be a shortage of GP’s at the moment. It’s a issue in Clacton, but I’m not sure what UKIP prooses to do about it, apart from using immigrants!

    The sensible thing to do would be review GP’s workload and the skill-sets across the NHS. There’s no doubt that much “care and maintainence” of patient work could be done by pharmacists.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 33m

    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected

    You on the evens?
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    Smarmeron said:

    @oxfordsimon
    GP,s services are "private" contractors, the doctors who work overnight are generally the less specialized ones..?

    My local GP surgery is Monday to Friday. I believe it is open from 8am to 9pm Mon-Thur and Fri 8am to 7pm. I believe that out of 10 GP's only 3 of them work Mon-Fri. Most of them also work elsewhere doing NHS hospital work and some private. So one of them may work say 9am to 9pm Mon- Wed and on the other days of the week they work elsewhere. To be open Weekends would mean less coverage during the week and/or taking on additional GP's. They are businesses and they will make decisions based on a business case.

    The government may want GP practices all open 7 days a week, but to do so will cost them a huge amount of money.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheScreamingEagles
    More money, less caring?......There are a couple of books that try to convey that idea, but no one reads them these days, they just fight over them.
    ;-)
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758
    Is there any interest in the Tory conference or only the news of any more defections ? Osborne may be proved to be extremely unwise to atack the working poor, as some of these will have voted Tory in 2010.
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    There appears to be a shortage of GP’s at the moment. It’s a issue in Clacton, but I’m not sure what UKIP prooses to do about it, apart from using immigrants!

    The sensible thing to do would be review GP’s workload and the skill-sets across the NHS. There’s no doubt that much “care and maintainence” of patient work could be done by pharmacists.

    You make a glib comment, but it has never been an issue for Ukip to use immigrants to do jobs that we are in short supply of among British people. Even enoch powell encouraged immigration if foreign workers to cover nhs shortages.

    I don't see how people can miss this point so often or do they just not want to see?
  • hucks67 said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @oxfordsimon
    GP,s services are "private" contractors, the doctors who work overnight are generally the less specialized ones..?

    My local GP surgery is Monday to Friday. I believe it is open from 8am to 9pm Mon-Thur and Fri 8am to 7pm. I believe that out of 10 GP's only 3 of them work Mon-Fri. Most of them also work elsewhere doing NHS hospital work and some private. So one of them may work say 9am to 9pm Mon- Wed and on the other days of the week they work elsewhere. To be open Weekends would mean less coverage during the week and/or taking on additional GP's. They are businesses and they will make decisions based on a business case.

    The government may want GP practices all open 7 days a week, but to do so will cost them a huge amount of money.
    You are clearly very lucky with your local surgery - many here will envy you for that. But the fact remains that having access to a GP is not a need that necessarily stops on a Friday evening.

    Reconfiguring access times and operating hours is a necessary shift to reflect the changes in modern society and the work patterns of the population. GPs have to be part of that change.

    There will be costs - but also savings when A&E departments are not having to deal with people who couldn't get to see their GP.
  • Any ideas why the govt wants to make GPs work on Sundays?

    I'd be royally pissed off if a politician told me I had to work weekends.

    We already have 24/7 medical care - in hospitals.

    Daft policy.
  • isam said:

    David Davis already tearing holes in Theresa mays new terrorist proposals

    Doctors saying the 7 day GP idea is unworkable

    Going well...

    The GP idea would require a lot of immigration of qualified doctors, fair enough although it would leave the countries they are from short of skills

    That's what Germany's doing right now. When I was in Berlin this summer there were two (hot) Venezuelan doctors on my wife's German course. Apparently they just have to pass a language test, and they can use their existing medical qualification, and just carry on their careers where they left off, but in a country without toilet paper shortages. Presumably if UK made things equally easy plenty of people would choose the UK over Germany, since a lot of doctors will already speak a bit of English which reduces the amount of time they have to spend studying before they can start earning a living.
  • hucks67hucks67 Posts: 758

    Theresa May slagging of the Lib Dems.

    Works for the LibDems, they probably asked her to do it.
    Theresa May is extremely right wing in my opinion. I don't think she has much in common with many Tories. She certainly would not share common ground with Dominic Grieve on human rights.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Osborne may be proved to be extremely unwise to atack the working poor, as some of these will have voted Tory in 2010.

    I suspect all that Osborne wants to do is end the practice of taking money off the working poor in direct and indirect taxes and then redistributing it to them in the form of tax credits.

    We'll probably find the threshold before paying tax keeps rising in the next budgets.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited September 2014

    Any ideas why the govt wants to make GPs work on Sundays?

    I'd be royally pissed off if a politician told me I had to work weekends.

    We already have 24/7 medical care - in hospitals.

    Daft policy.

    People get sick on Sundays? And the 24/7 'Medical Care' is 'Accident & Emergency' - the vast majority of GP visits are neither.....and why would you want to pile work onto A&E after their Saturday night peak?
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    The OECD found in 2011 UK GPs earned almost twice as much as their French counterparts. By contrast specialist French doctors earn the same as their specialist UK counterparts. Opening their surgeries at the weekend seems a small price to pay given GPs privileged status in the UK.
  • Doctors hours -- forget the spinning, what are the politics of this? At first sight, the government is falling into the trap of attacking its own supporters (viz GPs). Will it pick up more votes from grateful patients? Have there been any surveys on this?
  • Any ideas why the govt wants to make GPs work on Sundays?

    I'd be royally pissed off if a politician told me I had to work weekends.

    We already have 24/7 medical care - in hospitals.

    Daft policy.

    Daft to place all the burden on hospitals. Daft to ignore the fact that people don't fall ill to fit in with their GP surgery hours. Daft to ignore the fact that we live in a world of work which involves a much broader range of hours and days for a lot more people than was imagined 20 years ago.

    We should be reforming the NHS to put the patient first.

    Or are the needs of the Doctors more important?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014

    Any ideas why the govt wants to make GPs work on Sundays?

    I'd be royally pissed off if a politician told me I had to work weekends.

    We already have 24/7 medical care - in hospitals.

    Daft policy.

    The same hospitals where A&E departments are clogged up with patients, because the surgeries are shut, and the Dr's playing golf.

    On £80Kpa+ they can quit whining, and work the odd weekend,
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Norm
    Mind you, I have not noticed a rush of French doctors flooding into this country, I wonder why?
  • Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 33m

    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected

    I would hope Cammo will have a bit of text for his speech ready to cover any new pig dog traitor announcement tomorrow to rebut it.
    Yup, you seen the Arse Sol tweets below?
    He is a Reckless to me....
  • Any ideas why the govt wants to make GPs work on Sundays?

    I'd be royally pissed off if a politician told me I had to work weekends.

    We already have 24/7 medical care - in hospitals.

    Daft policy.

    Because people fall ill on Sundays?

    As a side note, it would be interesting to see how much A&E services are hindered by people attending with ailments that their GP could easily sort out.

    As another side note, GP services really are a postcode lottery. My local surgery is incredibly poor in terms of service, whilst my previous one near Southampton was absolutely A1 class.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    isam said:

    There appears to be a shortage of GP’s at the moment. It’s a issue in Clacton, but I’m not sure what UKIP prooses to do about it, apart from using immigrants!

    The sensible thing to do would be review GP’s workload and the skill-sets across the NHS. There’s no doubt that much “care and maintainence” of patient work could be done by pharmacists.

    You make a glib comment, but it has never been an issue for Ukip to use immigrants to do jobs that we are in short supply of among British people. Even enoch powell encouraged immigration if foreign workers to cover nhs shortages.

    I don't see how people can miss this point so often or do they just not want to see?
    To be fair to you Mr Isam, I would concede it could be the latter! Although my second paragraph, re reviewing Gp’s workload etc still stands. The model of medical services in this country is still as it was a century ago, when very many facets of life were very different.

    As done my question as to where these immigrant GP’s are going to come from!
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Daft policy.

    Well there is this....

    Whoever runs the severn bridge toll will make a fortune as hoards more Welsh people head over the border to escape labour's health catastrophe in Wales.

    Isn;t devolution wonderful?
  • Barnes was deselected in Hillingdon earlier this year. He stood as Independent coming 4th in a 2 members ward
    http://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/28189/Harefield-ward-results-2014
  • Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 33m

    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected

    I would hope Cammo will have a bit of text for his speech ready to cover any new pig dog traitor announcement tomorrow to rebut it.
    Yup, you seen the Arse Sol tweets below?
    He is a Reckless to me....
    Awwww
  • Boris on.
  • isam said:

    Paul Waugh @paulwaugh · 33m

    I hear that Lynton Crosby last night told Tory candidate meeting to another Tory MP defection to UKIP was expected

    You on the evens?
    No
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    hucks67 said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @oxfordsimon
    GP,s services are "private" contractors, the doctors who work overnight are generally the less specialized ones..?

    My local GP surgery is Monday to Friday. I believe it is open from 8am to 9pm Mon-Thur and Fri 8am to 7pm. I believe that out of 10 GP's only 3 of them work Mon-Fri. Most of them also work elsewhere doing NHS hospital work and some private. So one of them may work say 9am to 9pm Mon- Wed and on the other days of the week they work elsewhere. To be open Weekends would mean less coverage during the week and/or taking on additional GP's. They are businesses and they will make decisions based on a business case.

    The government may want GP practices all open 7 days a week, but to do so will cost them a huge amount of money.
    Don't take this too seriously ! They used 2020 as the starting date for a reason. It does not need to be costed as it is not to be implemented in the next Parliament.

    Basically, a "free" promise !
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited September 2014

    Any ideas why the govt wants to make GPs work on Sundays?

    I'd be royally pissed off if a politician told me I had to work weekends.

    We already have 24/7 medical care - in hospitals.

    Daft policy.

    People get sick on Sundays? And the 24/7 'Medical Care' is 'Accident & Emergency' - the vast majority of GP visits are neither.....
    There is a danger of spending a lot of government money on "the worried well". People do indeed get ill at weekends but by and large, they need out-of-hours cover or hospitals. There probably aren't that many patients contracting new acute conditions so serious they need to visit their GP immediately yet so trivial they can still go to work.
  • Happy day then, I have a long standing wager on her being next leader.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    hucks67 said:

    Smarmeron said:

    @oxfordsimon
    GP,s services are "private" contractors, the doctors who work overnight are generally the less specialized ones..?

    My local GP surgery is Monday to Friday. I believe it is open from 8am to 9pm Mon-Thur and Fri 8am to 7pm. I believe that out of 10 GP's only 3 of them work Mon-Fri. Most of them also work elsewhere doing NHS hospital work and some private. So one of them may work say 9am to 9pm Mon- Wed and on the other days of the week they work elsewhere. To be open Weekends would mean less coverage during the week and/or taking on additional GP's. They are businesses and they will make decisions based on a business case.

    The government may want GP practices all open 7 days a week, but to do so will cost them a huge amount of money.
    You are clearly very lucky with your local surgery - many here will envy you for that. But the fact remains that having access to a GP is not a need that necessarily stops on a Friday evening.

    Reconfiguring access times and operating hours is a necessary shift to reflect the changes in modern society and the work patterns of the population. GPs have to be part of that change.

    There will be costs - but also savings when A&E departments are not having to deal with people who couldn't get to see their GP.
    Many GP's have surgeries in Hospitals on weekends. You can book an appointment almost at any time. Hardly anyone is there.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    "The reason is simple - as one GP put it to me recently. "Longer opening is a fine idea, but the problem is that the people who see us the most - young children and the elderly - are the ones that don't have a problem with appointments on a Monday afternoon."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29424713
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    The model of GPs may be broken and they may not the best way to have entry into the health service.

    The model that worked 1950 to 1990 may not be the best solution 2014 onwards. Maybe we should redesign the role and status of GPs into something that works beter for our current needs.
  • Doctors hours -- forget the spinning, what are the politics of this? At first sight, the government is falling into the trap of attacking its own supporters (viz GPs). Will it pick up more votes from grateful patients? Have there been any surveys on this?

    The politics from this is that the Government are promising sweeties to the public in the form of better GP services, which is inconsistent with what should be their primary message of needing to eliminate the deficit and then start repaying the huge quantity of debt we have accumulated.

    It's a massive error to choose to fight political battles on Labour terrain of how to spend money, rather than the Conservative terrain of the necessity of being frugal with the nation's finances.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,704
    Smarmeron said:

    "The reason is simple - as one GP put it to me recently. "Longer opening is a fine idea, but the problem is that the people who see us the most - young children and the elderly - are the ones that don't have a problem with appointments on a Monday afternoon."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29424713

    Which though, is the chicken and which the egg? An important issue of our age is preventative medicine and here the worried well do need to be seen. They might, after all, be slightly unwell, with the probablity of deteroration!
  • Boris Johnson goes all Father Jack, I love my brick
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @philiph

    Nationalize them?
    (only kidding)
  • hucks67 said:

    Is there any interest in the Tory conference or only the news of any more defections ? Osborne may be proved to be extremely unwise to atack the working poor, as some of these will have voted Tory in 2010.

    Fair enough.

    Who are Labour going to 'attack' (as you call it) instead?

    At least the Conservatives actually have a position.

    From Labour? Nothing. Nada. Not a sausage. And yet they expect to be in government in a few months' time.
  • If people fall sick on a Sunday, they can see the doc on Monday.

    If it's an emergency they can go to hospital.

    Why does the government want to tell people to work weekends?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    For those who are counting the SNP are up to 73,000+
This discussion has been closed.