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  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    If Scotland votes Yes - what will UKIP be called after the 18th?
    MikeK said:
  • Mr. Financier, perhaps. If they chose to divorce when she's on Mars one can only shudder at the horrendous P&P costs of sending out the decree absolute.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited September 2014
    Plato said:

    TBH, there are so many things wrong with Devolution that it's amazing that the English have been so quiescent about it for so long.

    Well that dam has bust wide open now. I can't get over how much polite anger there is over the IndyRef from English posters all over the comment pages. Any politician going for appeasement will get a kick in the ballots.

    Good.

    The one good thing from the YES point of view, is the immense amount of damage and bad feeling this has caused here in England. I am beginning to think that if the referendum was nationwide then Scotland would be independent next week.

    If they want to hold another referendum then they might be wise to cast the voting net wider.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I read a few anecdotal comments yesterday from those involved in the financial services/sales area and they said it was dead business wise - no one is calling to place an order. Just to cancel or query the terms of their policies.

    GIN1138 said:

    I've been speaking with someone (Scot living in London) on another forum, unrelated to politics, who told me he has withdrawn all his money and investments from Scottish banks and institutions because he couldn't get sensible answers to a series of "what if" questions he'd been asking them for some time.

    This guy is a big cheese in pharmaceuticals so we're talking quite a lot of money here I would think...

    I can't imagine Scottish investment managers are picking up much, if any new business at the moment. No one of sound mind would hand over their savings now, and probably not in the future either.

    The capital flight south, must be horrendous.
  • welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!

    The only way you can have a balanced federation is to divide England into smaller units (the horror being these would probably be those stupid EU 'Regions' that group, for instance, Oxford and Dover together or Liverpool and Carlisle together for little reason other than that's where the line on the map was drawn). Whilst I can see this being OK for Greater London and potentially Yorkshire and the Humber and the North East, I'm not sure there's a strong enough regional identity to lump most into these groups. And counties are arguably too small a unit...

    And aside from places like Cornwall and Yorkshire, I can't imagine there being too much enthusiasm for splitting England up into federal units. We also should remember John Prescott failed spectacularly at introducing regional assemblies, although granted time has moved on now and this was before the current Scottish developments...
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited September 2014

    If we get an English Parliament with the same powers as a DevoMax Scotland we then have the very real problem of what the UK government is for other than foreign policy and defence. At that point it seems a little bit wasteful to have all those MPs sat at Westminster twiddling their thumbs until the next crisis blows up... And a UK PM would essentially be stripped of any authority on the domestic stage, being someone we wheel out occasionally for EU summits (assuming we stay in) and the odd photo op with the US President.

    If Scotland really does get significant new powers in the tax and spend sphere, rather than DevoMax doesn't this really become CurrencyUnionPlus? Not sure why Salmonds really that bothered about independence now, looks like we'll gift him what he wants if everyone votes no...

    John Redwood's idea is to make the 'English parliament' a subset of Westminster. This could lead to a Labour government with English Tory secretaries of state for all the domestic spending departments.

    For Labour the chickens must be made to come home to roost. In 1997 we had a quaint but essentially robust constitution. Through self-serving piecemeal tinkering it has been reduced to absurdity.



  • If Scotland votes Yes, I'm going to miss those Scotchmen one sees drunk in shop doorways at 9am shouting at themselves.

    You'll be able to buy an online one - step up to the plate, malcolmg.

    Let's face it, he'll be willing to do anything for cash once his job and pension have disappeared up Eck's fundament.

    True dat. I do often wonder from the tone of malky's posts if he is in fact posting from a pool of urine.
  • Patrick said:

    A Devolved Matters Equal Voting Act would resolve all.

    Perhaps you could clarify how that would work?

    All votes in the HoC are assessed by the Speaker - ALL MPs can vote on non-devolved matters (defence, foreign, DFID, Finance Bill, etc). For devolved matters only MPs from the relevant affected geography can vote. In practice this would often translate to English only (health, policing, agriculture, education, etc). Sometimes it would translate to England and Wales (jurisprudence, etc).

    But note: This only would create an effectively federal legislature. It would NOT create a federal executive (English government). (And note those campaigning for an English Parliament are less vocal about an English Government also - ie full devolution for England)Fully devolved Departments (education, health, etc) would become then effectively English only.

    This horrifies Westminster because it might mean 'the Government' could effectively have no control over the big sexy departments. It means 'Westminster' loses a huge amount of power to England. But..if England's legislature is the body of English Westminster MPs then so what? The English Parliament (either full and formal or via a Voting Act) would still sit in the House (and the facilities would be shared between the federal House and the English House). No point in wasting money creating a new one in Kidderminster or wherever.

    Just recognise and empower England. It's that simple.
  • PeterC said:

    If we get an English Parliament with the same powers as a DevoMax Scotland we then have the very real problem of what the UK government is for other than foreign policy and defence. At that point it seems a little bit wasteful to have all those MPs sat at Westminster twiddling their thumbs until the next crisis blows up... And a UK PM would essentially be stripped of any authority on the domestic stage, being someone we wheel out occasionally for EU summits (assuming we stay in) and the odd photo op with the US President.

    If Scotland really does get significant new powers in the tax and spend sphere, rather than DevoMax doesn't this really become CurrencyUnionPlus? Not sure why Salmonds really that bothered about independence now, looks like we'll gift him what he wants if everyone votes no...

    John Redwood's idea is to make the 'English parliament' a subset of Westminster. This could lead to a Labour government with English Tory secretaries of state for all the domestic spending departments.

    For Labour the chickens must be made to come home to roost. In 1997 we had a quaint but essentially robust constitution. Through self-serving piecemeal tinkering it has be reduced to absurdity.

    That seems a bit unwieldy.. You'd probably have to have two Home Secretaries and two Chancellors for a start...
  • welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!

    The only way you can have a balanced federation is to divide England into smaller units (the horror being these would probably be those stupid EU 'Regions' that group, for instance, Oxford and Dover together or Liverpool and Carlisle together for little reason other than that's where the line on the map was drawn). Whilst I can see this being OK for Greater London and potentially Yorkshire and the Humber and the North East, I'm not sure there's a strong enough regional identity to lump most into these groups. And counties are arguably too small a unit...

    And aside from places like Cornwall and Yorkshire, I can't imagine there being too much enthusiasm for splitting England up into federal units. We also should remember John Prescott failed spectacularly at introducing regional assemblies, although granted time has moved on now and this was before the current Scottish developments...
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
    It's impossible however to separate London from the South East. If you had that, all the wealth generators (banks etc) would pick up sticks and move their headquarters to Surrey.

    Guildford would become the richest town in the country.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Plato said:

    I read a few anecdotal comments yesterday from those involved in the financial services/sales area and they said it was dead business wise - no one is calling to place an order. Just to cancel or query the terms of their policies.

    GIN1138 said:

    I've been speaking with someone (Scot living in London) on another forum, unrelated to politics, who told me he has withdrawn all his money and investments from Scottish banks and institutions because he couldn't get sensible answers to a series of "what if" questions he'd been asking them for some time.

    This guy is a big cheese in pharmaceuticals so we're talking quite a lot of money here I would think...

    I can't imagine Scottish investment managers are picking up much, if any new business at the moment. No one of sound mind would hand over their savings now, and probably not in the future either.

    The capital flight south, must be horrendous.
    Many of those will be thinking of upping sticks and heading elsewhere - the canny ones have probably already done so.

    The usual suspects will pop up and shout 'bye bye to all those windy fannies', but iScotland will find it difficult to pay it's way on the revenues that Short Order cooks such as malcolmg can generate.
  • Carnyx said:

    Plato said:

    TBH, there are so many things wrong with Devolution that it's amazing that the English have been so quiescent about it for so long.

    Well that dam has bust wide open now. I can't get over how much polite anger there is over the IndyRef from English posters all over the comment pages. Any politician going for appeasement will get a kick in the ballots.

    Plato said:

    Very interesting point about English students. Not something I'd considered.

    I have a niece who lives in England but has (through her father) an Irish passport. She is going to a Scottish uni for free, yet my daughter's friend at the same Scottish uni has to pay.

    I have never understood why this is not classed as racism.
    I do appreciate that that particular issue is upsetting but it is very widely misunderstood (one might have one's suspicions about certain newspapers). But really it is simply that Scots decide to spend money differently, is about the strength of that particular issue.
    It's fine if it's Scottish money they're spending. The problem comes when they want more.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275

    PeterC said:

    If we get an English Parliament with the same powers as a DevoMax Scotland we then have the very real problem of what the UK government is for other than foreign policy and defence. At that point it seems a little bit wasteful to have all those MPs sat at Westminster twiddling their thumbs until the next crisis blows up... And a UK PM would essentially be stripped of any authority on the domestic stage, being someone we wheel out occasionally for EU summits (assuming we stay in) and the odd photo op with the US President.

    If Scotland really does get significant new powers in the tax and spend sphere, rather than DevoMax doesn't this really become CurrencyUnionPlus? Not sure why Salmonds really that bothered about independence now, looks like we'll gift him what he wants if everyone votes no...

    John Redwood's idea is to make the 'English parliament' a subset of Westminster. This could lead to a Labour government with English Tory secretaries of state for all the domestic spending departments.

    For Labour the chickens must be made to come home to roost. In 1997 we had a quaint but essentially robust constitution. Through self-serving piecemeal tinkering it has be reduced to absurdity.

    That seems a bit unwieldy.. You'd probably have to have two Home Secretaries and two Chancellors for a start...
    It is of course absurd. But it is absurdity with which we must now deal.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    So... Valium associated with getting Alzheimer's. I know some care workers, who tell me all their old ladies are on Diazepam. If the link is causal what little respect for GPs there is will completely vanish, they will become the most hated people in the country.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @nicholaswatt: Gordon Brown: @alexsalmond can try to dismiss some of the warnings some of the time but he can't dismiss all the warnings all the time
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2014
    I think you're right. The tone has completely changed over the last few months.

    The antipathy is palpable. Under any given article, a small proportion are pro-SNP/but mainly rude about the English/Tories - one or two are *let's still be friends* and the other 90% are Good Riddance, please vote Yes.

    It wasn't at all like this even 3 months ago. It was much more conciliatory/we'll be sad to see you go...

    I really don't think the SNP understand what they've done. Or if they do - they don't care a jot. Well, that'll come back to bite them on the arse, whatever English politicos think they can get away with = the public won't let them.

    Plato said:

    TBH, there are so many things wrong with Devolution that it's amazing that the English have been so quiescent about it for so long.

    Well that dam has bust wide open now. I can't get over how much polite anger there is over the IndyRef from English posters all over the comment pages. Any politician going for appeasement will get a kick in the ballots.

    Good.

    The one good thing from the YES point of view, is the immense amount of damage and bad feeling this has caused here in England. I am beginning to think that if the referendum was nationwide then Scotland would be independent next week.

    If they want to hold another referendum then they might be wise to cast the voting net wider.


  • If Scotland votes Yes, I'm going to miss those Scotchmen one sees drunk in shop doorways at 9am shouting at themselves.

    You'll be able to buy an online one - step up to the plate, malcolmg.

    Let's face it, he'll be willing to do anything for cash once his job and pension have disappeared up Eck's fundament.

    True dat. I do often wonder from the tone of malky's posts if he is in fact posting from a pool of urine.
    I wonder if he (and tim before him) have a poop sock (don't google it at work...)
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014



    If Scotland votes Yes, I'm going to miss those Scotchmen one sees drunk in shop doorways at 9am shouting at themselves.

    You'll be able to buy an online one - step up to the plate, malcolmg.

    Let's face it, he'll be willing to do anything for cash once his job and pension have disappeared up Eck's fundament.

    True dat. I do often wonder from the tone of malky's posts if he is in fact posting from a pool of urine.
    I wonder if he (and tim before him) have a poop sock (don't google it at work...)
    They post from commodes.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    Plato said:

    Very interesting point about English students. Not something I'd considered.

    I have a niece who lives in England but has (through her father) an Irish passport. She is going to a Scottish uni for free, yet my daughter's friend at the same Scottish uni has to pay.

    I have never understood why this is not classed as racism.
    It's a common, if understandable, error. The distinction is simply because it is based on residence, for UK nationals. Someone resident, even if Scottish born, in England gets £0 of tuition fees. Someone resident in Scotland, even if English born, in Scotland gets tuition fees. Those were always the rules for decades - the only change is that Westminster changed the thermostat to zero and the Scots did not follow suit but foun the money from elsewhere in their block allocation.

    My niece lives in Cheshire. She is as English as Cheshire Cheese. Someone is paying all her bills because of that Irish passport.
    But you tell me that she has chosen to be of Irish nationality for the purposes of university education. The sense in which you use English is, in any case, invalid, English and Scottish being administratively unusable for that purpose - only UK nationality and place of residence are definable and therefore useable. (Compare the problems when defining the referendum franchise n a way acceptable to international norms of such indyrefs.)

    Also, that bill is coming out of the Scottish taxpayer's pocket (or at least the bit returned to the Scottish exchequer). I wouldn't dream of complaining about that, but I might suggest that it could possibly be seen a little over-generous to have to pay as well for a second lass, English as the two together may seem when you meet them, if Scottish children could not expect grants out of what is effectively the English budget.

    The Eu rules are in any case how it worked before - an arrangement to which the UK agreed as a whole - and nothing to do with what the Scots decided under devolution.

    (And not all her bills, surely. Just the tuition fees?)
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    "The Better Together (BT) campaign has been seizing on that Times Higher Education poll (see here) saying that University academics and staff in Scotland are more likely to oppose independence than to support it.

    A statement just issued by BT has quotes from Professor Hugh Pennington, Emeritus Professor of Bacteriology at the University of Aberdeen, who said:

    With just days to go until we make the most important decision in Scotland’s history, we still don’t know how our world-class universities would be paid for. This is a risk we just don’t have to take.

    To settle for less than being a global leader in education is selling Scotland short and that is why we should say ‘No Thanks’ to separation."

    Even the academics are not keen on Salmond's fantasy economic plans.
  • LennonLennon Posts: 1,770

    welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!

    The only way you can have a balanced federation is to divide England into smaller units (the horror being these would probably be those stupid EU 'Regions' that group, for instance, Oxford and Dover together or Liverpool and Carlisle together for little reason other than that's where the line on the map was drawn). Whilst I can see this being OK for Greater London and potentially Yorkshire and the Humber and the North East, I'm not sure there's a strong enough regional identity to lump most into these groups. And counties are arguably too small a unit...

    And aside from places like Cornwall and Yorkshire, I can't imagine there being too much enthusiasm for splitting England up into federal units. We also should remember John Prescott failed spectacularly at introducing regional assemblies, although granted time has moved on now and this was before the current Scottish developments...
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
    It's a bit too simplistic to say 'London votes Labour' - London has voted for Boris twice!
  • Mr. C, sadly, you're quite right. Labour buggered up the way we did things. What a cretin Blair is, was, and ever shall be.
  • Plato said:

    If Scotland votes Yes - what will UKIP be called after the 18th?

    MikeK said:
    The best idea for a post-Yes name for UKIP is "National Alliance for Zero Immigration" although t needs some sort of snappy acronym....
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014
    dr_spyn said:

    "The Better Together (BT) campaign has been seizing on that Times Higher Education poll (see here) saying that University academics and staff in Scotland are more likely to oppose independence than to support it.

    A statement just issued by BT has quotes from Professor Hugh Pennington, Emeritus Professor of Bacteriology at the University of Aberdeen, who said:

    With just days to go until we make the most important decision in Scotland’s history, we still don’t know how our world-class universities would be paid for. This is a risk we just don’t have to take.

    To settle for less than being a global leader in education is selling Scotland short and that is why we should say ‘No Thanks’ to separation."

    Even the academics are not keen on Salmond's fantasy economic plans.

    At some point between now and the vote, could Eck stop turning his back on unwelcome enquiries at a press Q & A, and totally lose it?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,824

    Plato said:

    If Scotland votes Yes - what will UKIP be called after the 18th?

    MikeK said:
    The best idea for a post-Yes name for UKIP is "National Alliance for Zero Immigration" although t needs some sort of snappy acronym....
    NA0I?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    dr_spyn said:

    "The Better Together (BT) campaign has been seizing on that Times Higher Education poll (see here) saying that University academics and staff in Scotland are more likely to oppose independence than to support it.

    A statement just issued by BT has quotes from Professor Hugh Pennington, Emeritus Professor of Bacteriology at the University of Aberdeen, who said:

    With just days to go until we make the most important decision in Scotland’s history, we still don’t know how our world-class universities would be paid for. This is a risk we just don’t have to take.

    To settle for less than being a global leader in education is selling Scotland short and that is why we should say ‘No Thanks’ to separation."

    Even the academics are not keen on Salmond's fantasy economic plans.

    At some point between now and the vote, could Eck stop turning his back on unwelcome enquiries at a press Q & A, and totally lose it?
    You mean like the three Scottish party leaders used a cheerleader at Dynamic Earth?

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited September 2014

    PeterC said:

    If we get an English Parliament with the same powers as a DevoMax Scotland we then have the very real problem of what the UK government is for other than foreign policy and defence. At that point it seems a little bit wasteful to have all those MPs sat at Westminster twiddling their thumbs until the next crisis blows up... And a UK PM would essentially be stripped of any authority on the domestic stage, being someone we wheel out occasionally for EU summits (assuming we stay in) and the odd photo op with the US President.

    If Scotland really does get significant new powers in the tax and spend sphere, rather than DevoMax doesn't this really become CurrencyUnionPlus? Not sure why Salmonds really that bothered about independence now, looks like we'll gift him what he wants if everyone votes no...

    John Redwood's idea is to make the 'English parliament' a subset of Westminster. This could lead to a Labour government with English Tory secretaries of state for all the domestic spending departments.

    For Labour the chickens must be made to come home to roost. In 1997 we had a quaint but essentially robust constitution. Through self-serving piecemeal tinkering it has be reduced to absurdity.

    That seems a bit unwieldy.. You'd probably have to have two Home Secretaries and two Chancellors for a start...
    Not really. A Home Secretary's powers would not stretch to devolved matters. There might be a small rump for cross national police co-ordination or federal crime agencies etc - but 'Home Secretary' wouldn't really be a big job anymore. Police and Prisons Minister for England might.

    Chancellors would get to determine overall budgets etc. Devolved spending departments would get to decide how they spend their allocation - NOT how much to spend. The UK chancellor would remain in overall control of tax and borrowing and spending limits. Devolved departments (or countries) would control how they spend what they are allocated (but would only receive from No11 / general UK wide taxation what they are allocated - similar to existing block grant to Scotland). We could additionally allow devolved countries to tax and spend more locally (this is the current Devomax extended offer) - but, crucially, not to borrow (otherwise UK chancellor loses control of overall UK finances).

    It's actually simple enough -but a giant headache for politicians to accept the transfer of powers. Many English political jobs (health, education, etc) would be much bigger than some federal UK ones (rump non-devolved Home Secretary). Suck it up. England exists.
  • Plato said:

    If Scotland votes Yes - what will UKIP be called after the 18th?

    MikeK said:
    The best idea for a post-Yes name for UKIP is "National Alliance for Zero Immigration" although t needs some sort of snappy acronym....
    FUKIP.

    Which is apt as they help usher in Ed Miliband as PM and deny us a referendum.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Carnyx said:


    (And not all her bills, surely. Just the tuition fees?)

    I am sure she will pay for her own shopping and such.


  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,891
    Plato said:

    If Scotland votes Yes - what will UKIP be called after the 18th?

    MikeK said:
    UKIP.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    "The Better Together (BT) campaign has been seizing on that Times Higher Education poll (see here) saying that University academics and staff in Scotland are more likely to oppose independence than to support it.

    A statement just issued by BT has quotes from Professor Hugh Pennington, Emeritus Professor of Bacteriology at the University of Aberdeen, who said:

    With just days to go until we make the most important decision in Scotland’s history, we still don’t know how our world-class universities would be paid for. This is a risk we just don’t have to take.

    To settle for less than being a global leader in education is selling Scotland short and that is why we should say ‘No Thanks’ to separation."

    Even the academics are not keen on Salmond's fantasy economic plans.

    At some point between now and the vote, could Eck stop turning his back on unwelcome enquiries at a press Q & A, and totally lose it?
    You mean like the three Scottish party leaders used a cheerleader at Dynamic Earth?

    ?
  • Contra the Survation figures (and PB 'wisdom')

    'Aye: Young People in Scotland Want Independence

    ...The most striking part of the conversation came, inevitably, at the end. One after another, people in our debate told me how British meant little or nothing to them. They had no great desire to wrap themselves in an identity that encompasses the English and Welsh. Even some of those in the No camp.
    And that is the bit Prime Minister David Cameron, Labour leader Ed Miliband and Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg don’t seem to have understood. There is a complete mismatch in their arguments.
    As the party leaders travelled up from London to love-bomb Scotland with talk of British history, a family of nations, common bonds and aspirations, it seemed many here just didn’t know what these men were going on about. Scottishness is something too many English don’t get, because we feel British. Our identity includes Scotland. For the Scots, even many of those who would rather stay in the Union, their identity is something quite different.
    And all the talk of this being irreversible, drastic, tragic and heartbreaking doesn’t seem to have much effect. It may feel like the time for emotion, with the possible breakup of Britain seemingly real and close. But the emotion from those voting Yes is optimism. As we saw on Wednesday, the teenagers here aren't interested in nostalgia and sentimentality.'

    http://tinyurl.com/kahfe5p
  • Mr. Patrick, spot on, but I fear that's why Westminster will either try and go for English votes on English matters (a step in the right direction) or carving up England (indefensible and completely moronic given what is happening with the Scottish Parliament leading to an independence referendum).
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Morris_Dancer
    Since bad things only happen under a Labour government, would you have been happier if Britain had been a two party state, Whigs and Tories?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209



    I fear it will be a long wait...

    As long as the wait for you to either deny or defend your fake flouncing and multiple online personalities?
    Scott has a pal, him that does not know what his name is.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    dr_spyn said:

    "The Better Together (BT) campaign has been seizing on that Times Higher Education poll (see here) saying that University academics and staff in Scotland are more likely to oppose independence than to support it.

    A statement just issued by BT has quotes from Professor Hugh Pennington, Emeritus Professor of Bacteriology at the University of Aberdeen, who said:

    With just days to go until we make the most important decision in Scotland’s history, we still don’t know how our world-class universities would be paid for. This is a risk we just don’t have to take.

    To settle for less than being a global leader in education is selling Scotland short and that is why we should say ‘No Thanks’ to separation."

    Even the academics are not keen on Salmond's fantasy economic plans.

    Prof Pennington using the word 'separation' is a bit of a give-away. As is the 'Emeritus'.

    As for the poll, is it a voodoo poll? And even then it shows quite a mixed story - I was surprised how mixed, which may imply small sample sizes or local campaigns, as well as the subject balance.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    GIN1138 said:

    I've been speaking with someone (Scot living in London) on another forum, unrelated to politics, who told me he has withdrawn all his money and investments from Scottish banks and institutions because he couldn't get sensible answers to a series of "what if" questions he'd been asking them for some time.

    This guy is a big cheese in pharmaceuticals so we're talking quite a lot of money here I would think...

    I can't imagine Scottish investment managers are picking up much, if any new business at the moment. No one of sound mind would hand over their savings now, and probably not in the future either.

    Scotland's pensions industry is totally screwed. The capital flight south, must be horrendous.

    Watcher is doing voluntary work for his JSA benefits and has decided to be a Financial Advisor.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322



    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.

    It's impossible however to separate London from the South East. If you had that, all the wealth generators (banks etc) would pick up sticks and move their headquarters to Surrey.

    Guildford would become the richest town in the country.

    If you had a federation it would be completely foolish to separate out London from the home counties. They're already talking about giving Boris control of the commuter lines because the transport systems are so integrated, large chunks of Surrey, Kent, Essex and Hertfordshire are joined up to the London built up area, and even larger chunks are in London's travel to work area. The existing regional system makes no sense either: why on Earth are Herts and Beds thrown in with Norfolk when all their transport links run north-south? The old statistical region for the South East made far more sense:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/EnglandStandStatRegionsNumbered.png
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @nicholaswatt: Gordon Brown: I will stand for Scottish parliament if @akexsalmond continues to peddle lies on NHS
  • I wish this judge would get an effing move on.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Plato said:

    I know we all suffer from confirmation bias at times, the SNP seem to have leapfrogged all that and gone for denying reality.

    Scott_P said:

    John Lewis "I am a shopkeeper. My prices will go up"

    Politician "No they won't"

    Is ANYONE buying this crap from Swinney?

    Cuckoo
  • Lennon said:

    welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!

    .
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
    It's a bit too simplistic to say 'London votes Labour' - London has voted for Boris twice!
    Yes, but one can observe quite easily that votes are cast differently according to the significance of the post(s) voted on, and of course the voting system itself.

    A party such as UKIP can do well in Euro elections where the MEP elected makes literally absolutely no difference whatsoever to anything at all; you could elect the UltraSubmissive Federast Have Your Way With Britain Party or UKIP and literally nothing would ensue differently in any way at all.

    UKIP do less well in aggregate in council elections, where they may be allowed near actual money, or schools, or stuff that's important. They do less well still in GEs where they may be allowed near even more important things like the public finances or Britain's international standing. I pick UKIP as the obvious example, but it applies to other parties, eg Respect and the BNP, and to other elections (the Mayoral one you cite).

    This is how you have a London with a Tory mayor and a majority of Labour MPs off the same electorate.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    RobD said:

    Plato said:

    If Scotland votes Yes - what will UKIP be called after the 18th?

    MikeK said:
    The best idea for a post-Yes name for UKIP is "National Alliance for Zero Immigration" although t needs some sort of snappy acronym....
    NA0I?
    NAMBLA (™ The Daily Show)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Unusual suspension in Dutch Open golf as Fab Zanotti receives medical attention.

    Hope he is OK He is only 31
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Scott_P said:

    John Lewis "I am a shopkeeper. My prices will go up"

    Politician "No they won't"

    Is ANYONE buying this crap from Swinney?

    They won't be buying crap from John Lewis , they will buy it from someone that can run their business properly and manage their costs.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Carnyx said:

    dr_spyn said:

    "The Better Together (BT) campaign has been seizing on that Times Higher Education poll (see here) saying that University academics and staff in Scotland are more likely to oppose independence than to support it.

    A statement just issued by BT has quotes from Professor Hugh Pennington, Emeritus Professor of Bacteriology at the University of Aberdeen, who said:

    With just days to go until we make the most important decision in Scotland’s history, we still don’t know how our world-class universities would be paid for. This is a risk we just don’t have to take.

    To settle for less than being a global leader in education is selling Scotland short and that is why we should say ‘No Thanks’ to separation."

    Even the academics are not keen on Salmond's fantasy economic plans.

    At some point between now and the vote, could Eck stop turning his back on unwelcome enquiries at a press Q & A, and totally lose it?
    You mean like the three Scottish party leaders used a cheerleader at Dynamic Earth?

    ?
    Sorry: should ave been clearer. The sketchwriter I read commented on how when the questioning got difficult the cheerleader standing behind the cameras waved to the supporters with their No boards and they all cheered, prompt for the three leaders to turn around and walk away. Can't remember where I read that, I;ve read so much lately!

  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Patrick said:

    All votes in the HoC are assessed by the Speaker - ALL MPs can vote on non-devolved matters (defence, foreign, DFID, Finance Bill, etc). For devolved matters only MPs from the relevant affected geography can vote. In practice this would often translate to English only (health, policing, agriculture, education, etc). Sometimes it would translate to England and Wales (jurisprudence, etc).

    So then, rather like the "ultimate subsidiarity" scenario I mentioned.
    Patrick said:

    But note: This only would create an effectively federal legislature. It would NOT create a federal executive (English government). (And note those campaigning for an English Parliament are less vocal about an English Government also - ie full devolution for England)Fully devolved Departments (education, health, etc) would become then effectively English only.
    ....
    Just recognise and empower England. It's that simple.

    I agree, but I would go further and say that there would be no need for ANY devolved government.

  • FF42FF42 Posts: 114

    Plato said:

    I read a few anecdotal comments yesterday from those involved in the financial services/sales area and they said it was dead business wise - no one is calling to place an order. Just to cancel or query the terms of their policies.

    GIN1138 said:

    I've been speaking with someone (Scot living in London) on another forum, unrelated to politics, who told me he has withdrawn all his money and investments from Scottish banks and institutions because he couldn't get sensible answers to a series of "what if" questions he'd been asking them for some time.

    This guy is a big cheese in pharmaceuticals so we're talking quite a lot of money here I would think...

    I can't imagine Scottish investment managers are picking up much, if any new business at the moment. No one of sound mind would hand over their savings now, and probably not in the future either.

    The capital flight south, must be horrendous.
    Many of those will be thinking of upping sticks and heading elsewhere - the canny ones have probably already done so.

    The usual suspects will pop up and shout 'bye bye to all those windy fannies', but iScotland will find it difficult to pay it's way on the revenues that Short Order cooks such as malcolmg can generate.
    It's not just finance. There's no investment coming into Scotland for any UK market business. That's across all industry sectors
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209

    Plato said:

    Very interesting point about English students. Not something I'd considered.

    I have a niece who lives in England but has (through her father) an Irish passport. She is going to a Scottish uni for free, yet my daughter's friend at the same Scottish uni has to pay.

    I have never understood why this is not classed as racism.
    The greedy zombies are out in force now. Wah Wah I want something for nothing but if you are Scottish we charge you £9K a year.
    Are you right in the head.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:


    They won't be buying from John Lewis

    You can't buy turnips at John Lewis, Malky
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014
    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:

    John Lewis "I am a shopkeeper. My prices will go up"

    Politician "No they won't"

    Is ANYONE buying this crap from Swinney?

    They won't be buying crap from John Lewis , they will buy it from someone that can run their business properly and manage their costs.
    After independence that will be 'Poundland', the only affordable shopping chain remaining.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    welshowl said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Bingley in West Yorkshire lost the HQ building for Bradford and Bingley bank in 2008 during the banking crisis, it is now a sainsbury`s many lost their jobs


    So without a currency union a few HQ`s will move, especially to be risk averse against another crisis.
    However there will be a deal,if there is a yes vote, whatever they say, to avoid another crisis.

    Err no. The financial sector is about more than banking. There is a huge pension industry in Scotland which has about 90+% of its business on the other side of the border, given pensions are such a minefield of legislation I really can't see this staying where it is so the office jobs go too.

    This is what I was pointing out last night in microcosm. Our company pension funds and actuarial services are both based in Edinburgh and we will have to pull the plug and move them (unless they are moved for us as Std Life is of course saying it will) as we simply cannot have such complex legal and regulatory set ups based in a foreign country. End of. No debate. An Irish actuary with the world's greatest track record and exemplary qualifications could offer their services to us for next to nothing and we would still say no if they were based in Dublin, precisely because we need the reassurance of being in the same ongoing legal framework as the pensions will be paid in. It's not "scaremongering", it's not "bullying", it's the truth and ordinary people's future's rely on it.
    Stick your £20 up your erchie you wittering dimwit
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,891

    I wish this judge would get an effing move on.

    Imagine how long this must feel for Mr Pistorius. Like a chinese water torture !
  • Anyone know if Andy Burnham is one of the 100 Labour MPs being shunted up north in a sealed train to start the Labour revolution? Would be fascinating to hear his views on the NHS.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    edited September 2014
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:


    They won't be buying from John Lewis

    You can't buy turnips at John Lewis, Malky
    Well, kohl-rabi at Waitrose perhaps ...

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453


    After independence that will be 'Poundland', the only affordable shopping chain remaining.

    Branded Groatland north of the border...
  • Pulpstar said:

    I wish this judge would get an effing move on.

    Imagine how long this must feel for Mr Pistorius. Like a chinese water torture !
    He should have used the defence "who hasn't got pissed on Valentine's Day and shot his load all over his girlfriend" defence.

    He'd have been found not guilty months ago

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Scott_P said:

    @SkyNews: Banks Exit And Higher Prices If Scots Quit UK http://t.co/FZ4TM3MBHa

    So you have chickened out completely , sticking to cut and paste
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Scott_P said:

    @SkyNews: Banks Exit And Higher Prices If Scots Quit UK http://t.co/FZ4TM3MBHa

    So you have chickened out completely , sticking to cut and paste
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Morning all. I think we should take a leaf out of the EU's book. If Scotland votes no, we should simply require them to repeat the exercise until they vote correctly, i.e. yes.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    Surely Oscar is about to be pronounced guilty
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Scott_P said:

    Oh dear, the Nats seem just a little bit upset this morning, verging on the unbalanced.

    I guess the Sheffield Rally victory party didn't go so well...

    Trolling 24/7 with the same lines, over and over again. Here's Bobajob's challenge: compose a post of 4-5 sentences on a topic of your choice. This must be your own opinion, not the drivel if others. Let's see if you can do it.
    Bobafett made that challenge too...
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Surely Oscar is about to be pronounced guilty

    It's not looking good for him.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Plato said:

    I read a few anecdotal comments yesterday from those involved in the financial services/sales area and they said it was dead business wise - no one is calling to place an order. Just to cancel or query the terms of their policies.

    GIN1138 said:

    I've been speaking with someone (Scot living in London) on another forum, unrelated to politics, who told me he has withdrawn all his money and investments from Scottish banks and institutions because he couldn't get sensible answers to a series of "what if" questions he'd been asking them for some time.

    This guy is a big cheese in pharmaceuticals so we're talking quite a lot of money here I would think...

    I can't imagine Scottish investment managers are picking up much, if any new business at the moment. No one of sound mind would hand over their savings now, and probably not in the future either.

    The capital flight south, must be horrendous.
    LOL, amoeba's are communicating with each other. Are Plato and watcher two cheeks of the same arse or just two arses
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Plato said:

    I think you're right. The tone has completely changed over the last few months.

    The antipathy is palpable. Under any given article, a small proportion are pro-SNP/but mainly rude about the English/Tories - one or two are *let's still be friends* and the other 90% are Good Riddance, please vote Yes.

    It wasn't at all like this even 3 months ago. It was much more conciliatory/we'll be sad to see you go...

    I really don't think the SNP understand what they've done. Or if they do - they don't care a jot. Well, that'll come back to bite them on the arse, whatever English politicos think they can get away with = the public won't let them.

    Plato said:

    TBH, there are so many things wrong with Devolution that it's amazing that the English have been so quiescent about it for so long.

    Well that dam has bust wide open now. I can't get over how much polite anger there is over the IndyRef from English posters all over the comment pages. Any politician going for appeasement will get a kick in the ballots.

    Good.

    The one good thing from the YES point of view, is the immense amount of damage and bad feeling this has caused here in England. I am beginning to think that if the referendum was nationwide then Scotland would be independent next week.

    If they want to hold another referendum then they might be wise to cast the voting net wider.
    Comedy gold
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    Scott_P said:

    Oh dear, the Nats seem just a little bit upset this morning, verging on the unbalanced.

    I guess the Sheffield Rally victory party didn't go so well...

    Trolling 24/7 with the same lines, over and over again. Here's Bobajob's challenge: compose a post of 4-5 sentences on a topic of your choice. This must be your own opinion, not the drivel if others. Let's see if you can do it.
    Bobafett made that challenge too...
    It's the kind of thing 'Reggie' was fond of as well.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,637
    If released he could be running next year.

    i advise any female spectators to attend the toilet before arriving at the stadium
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    dr_spyn said:

    "The Better Together (BT) campaign has been seizing on that Times Higher Education poll (see here) saying that University academics and staff in Scotland are more likely to oppose independence than to support it.

    A statement just issued by BT has quotes from Professor Hugh Pennington, Emeritus Professor of Bacteriology at the University of Aberdeen, who said:

    With just days to go until we make the most important decision in Scotland’s history, we still don’t know how our world-class universities would be paid for. This is a risk we just don’t have to take.

    To settle for less than being a global leader in education is selling Scotland short and that is why we should say ‘No Thanks’ to separation."

    Even the academics are not keen on Salmond's fantasy economic plans.

    LOL, their favourite pet unionist dummy
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    sticking to cut and paste

    Cut'n'paste your own posts, eh Malky?

    Calm down dear.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,891
    The accused was clearly not candid with the court when he said he did not want to shoot anyone, as he had a loaded firearm and was ready to shoot, the judge says.

    Good spot by the judge - seems she is being very thorough !
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639

    Anyone know if Andy Burnham is one of the 100 Labour MPs being shunted up north in a sealed train to start the Labour revolution? Would be fascinating to hear his views on the NHS.

    Me too. Not just on privatization and TTIp, but also on doing things differently in the NHS at all - which hrather misses the point of devolution (his party's policy):

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/quoted-for-proof/

    not to mention driving on the right ...

    “I would feel really genuinely sad if Scotland votes for independence, not just for our own self-interest and in the extra difficulty we would face getting a Labour government in England but I also don’t want to drive up the M6 and get my passport out or have to drive on the right when I want to drive on the left.” (This is NOT an April Fool. I checked.)

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/10648238/Labour-oppose-Scottish-independence-because-they-fear-losing-power-in-Westminster.html
  • Which has gone on the longest?

    The Indy ref or this Judge's summing up?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited September 2014
    malcolmg said:

    Plato said:

    I read a few anecdotal comments yesterday from those involved in the financial services/sales area and they said it was dead business wise - no one is calling to place an order. Just to cancel or query the terms of their policies.

    GIN1138 said:

    I've been speaking with someone (Scot living in London) on another forum, unrelated to politics, who told me he has withdrawn all his money and investments from Scottish banks and institutions because he couldn't get sensible answers to a series of "what if" questions he'd been asking them for some time.

    This guy is a big cheese in pharmaceuticals so we're talking quite a lot of money here I would think...

    I can't imagine Scottish investment managers are picking up much, if any new business at the moment. No one of sound mind would hand over their savings now, and probably not in the future either.

    The capital flight south, must be horrendous.
    LOL, amoeba's are communicating with each other. Are Plato and watcher two cheeks of the same arse or just two arses
    'Neds in the Drive Thru want 4 Happy Meals. Can you get onto it please malcolm, they're holding up the queue. You can't spend all day texting in the disabled loo'
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    Lennon said:

    welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!



    And aside from places like Cornwall and Yorkshire, I can't imagine there being too much enthusiasm for splitting England up into federal units. We also should remember John Prescott failed spectacularly at introducing regional assemblies, although granted time has moved on now and this was before the current Scottish developments...
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
    It's a bit too simplistic to say 'London votes Labour' - London has voted for Boris twice!
    Truer to say London leans Labour. It has 28 Conservative MPs, hundreds of Conservative councillors, and the Conservatives and UKIP can expect to win c. 40% of the vote between them, next year.
  • I just had a quick flick through that Wee Blue Book. It's hilarious. Full of unsubstantiated 'facts', reverse scaremongering and wishful thinking.

    Some of it doesn't even try to put a coherent counter argument. My favourite one was on borders if Scotland joins Schengen and takes out a different immigration policy: it doesn't claim that this wouldn't happen, just that it's be too much hassle to build and police a border so the English wouldn't bother.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    FF42 said:

    Plato said:

    I read a few anecdotal comments yesterday from those involved in the financial services/sales area and they said it was dead business wise - no one is calling to place an order. Just to cancel or query the terms of their policies.

    GIN1138 said:

    I've been speaking with someone (Scot living in London) on another forum, unrelated to politics, who told me he has withdrawn all his money and investments from Scottish banks and institutions because he couldn't get sensible answers to a series of "what if" questions he'd been asking them for some time.

    This guy is a big cheese in pharmaceuticals so we're talking quite a lot of money here I would think...

    I can't imagine Scottish investment managers are picking up much, if any new business at the moment. No one of sound mind would hand over their savings now, and probably not in the future either.

    The capital flight south, must be horrendous.
    Many of those will be thinking of upping sticks and heading elsewhere - the canny ones have probably already done so.

    The usual suspects will pop up and shout 'bye bye to all those windy fannies', but iScotland will find it difficult to pay it's way on the revenues that Short Order cooks such as malcolmg can generate.
    It's not just finance. There's no investment coming into Scotland for any UK market business. That's across all industry sectors
    That would explain why inward investment is at its highest for years and years, thanks for your input.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:


    They won't be buying from John Lewis

    You can't buy turnips at John Lewis, Malky
    I prefer watching them post on here anyway
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    BBC News ditches Eck in favour of Oscar Pistorius

    Shame...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,891
    Not guilty on premeditated
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    Pistorius getting the original charge reduced.
    "The state clearly has not proved beyond reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty of premeditated murder. There are just not enough facts to support such a finding," says Judge Masipa."
  • isamisam Posts: 41,118

    Pulpstar said:

    I wish this judge would get an effing move on.

    Imagine how long this must feel for Mr Pistorius. Like a chinese water torture !
    He should have used the defence "who hasn't got pissed on Valentine's Day and shot his load all over his girlfriend" defence.

    He'd have been found not guilty months ago

    For someone who gets uppity themselves over certain things you can be extremely insensitive and crude, it's not a good trait.

    Why joke over someone's death? An innocent person was killed, someone's daughter, and you make crude jokes about it?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,922
    Sean_F said:

    Lennon said:

    welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!



    And aside from places like Cornwall and Yorkshire, I can't imagine there being too much enthusiasm for splitting England up into federal units. We also should remember John Prescott failed spectacularly at introducing regional assemblies, although granted time has moved on now and this was before the current Scottish developments...
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
    It's a bit too simplistic to say 'London votes Labour' - London has voted for Boris twice!
    Truer to say London leans Labour. It has 28 Conservative MPs, hundreds of Conservative councillors, and the Conservatives and UKIP can expect to win c. 40% of the vote between them, next year.
    But the right wing split in London is very much more pro-European than in the rest of the UK
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    sticking to cut and paste

    Cut'n'paste your own posts, eh Malky?

    Calm down dear.
    cluck cluck cluck
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    Sean_F said:

    Lennon said:

    welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!



    And aside from places like Cornwall and Yorkshire, I can't imagine there being too much enthusiasm for splitting England up into federal units. We also should remember John Prescott failed spectacularly at introducing regional assemblies, although granted time has moved on now and this was before the current Scottish developments...
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
    It's a bit too simplistic to say 'London votes Labour' - London has voted for Boris twice!
    Truer to say London leans Labour. It has 28 Conservative MPs, hundreds of Conservative councillors, and the Conservatives and UKIP can expect to win c. 40% of the vote between them, next year.
    Perhaps we could expand the borders again?

    http://barneystringer.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/is-london-too-small/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141
    Alistair said:

    So, as far as I can tell Survation has 16-24 year olds the opposite of all the other polling companies - so going very heavily No, whilst others have the group split or going heavily Yes. They also have Glasgow as going heavily No which I think isn't in keeping with the other companies either.

    That seems to be the difference between their result and everyone else as best as I can tell from 1 table.

    Generally speaking, one shouldn't worry to much about sub-samples. All this week's polls are consistent with No having a small lead.

  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    @Plato

    England fans the other night were singing "F### off Scotland"...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: EU referendum is the biggest threat to jobs in Scotland and will be "off the table" in an independent Scotland - @AlexSalmond

    off the table cos we'll be oot the windae...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: ..So RBS havent said publicly or to staff there will be "no impact" on jobs. Fwiw, typically moves like this mean a few hundred not 1000s..
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Lennon said:

    welshowl said:


    I actually think that whereas constitutional reform has always languished down the bottom of the list of voter concerns, that is no longer the case now. 5m Scots have been electrified by the current debate, and England seems to have woken from its slumbers.

    If it's a No, we're headed for a federal UK, I think there's no doubt about it, because that's the only logical destination on the current direction of travel (that all 3 parties are now signed up to, and which the Nats in Scotland and Wales ultimately wanted all along anyway).

    Quite how that is going to work though with the possibility of a UK-wide administration setting overall policies which are at odds with whatever force emerges in England-alone, I don't know!



    And aside from places like Cornwall and Yorkshire, I can't imagine there being too much enthusiasm for splitting England up into federal units. We also should remember John Prescott failed spectacularly at introducing regional assemblies, although granted time has moved on now and this was before the current Scottish developments...
    Even if you did carve England up is the ( virtually permanently Tory with a UKIP opposition?) SE Region Parliament going to be able to vary income tax in the same way that Scotland can? And what happens when the push taxes down (as they will)? We could have tax completion between different parts of the island of Great Britain. It's Balkanisation writ small if we are not very careful.
    The trouble with a federation that splits out London is that London votes Labour. So you'd have the acute problem that the cash generator of the UK economy would potentially be subjected to envy taxes voted for by people who couldn't care less if this does a Francois Hollande to London, because as a class they themselves are always takers rather than payers of tax. If this killed the City they'd just demand that someone else they envy be taxed instead.
    It's a bit too simplistic to say 'London votes Labour' - London has voted for Boris twice!
    Truer to say London leans Labour. It has 28 Conservative MPs, hundreds of Conservative councillors, and the Conservatives and UKIP can expect to win c. 40% of the vote between them, next year.
    But the right wing split in London is very much more pro-European than in the rest of the UK
    Probably because half of them are French and German bankers.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Turnip.

    I just had a quick flick through that Wee Blue Book. It's hilarious. Full of unsubstantiated 'facts', reverse scaremongering and wishful thinking.

    Some of it doesn't even try to put a coherent counter argument. My favourite one was on borders if Scotland joins Schengen and takes out a different immigration policy: it doesn't claim that this wouldn't happen, just that it's be too much hassle to build and police a border so the English wouldn't bother.

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Sean_F said:

    Alistair said:

    So, as far as I can tell Survation has 16-24 year olds the opposite of all the other polling companies - so going very heavily No, whilst others have the group split or going heavily Yes. They also have Glasgow as going heavily No which I think isn't in keeping with the other companies either.

    That seems to be the difference between their result and everyone else as best as I can tell from 1 table.

    Generally speaking, one shouldn't worry to much about sub-samples. All this week's polls are consistent with No having a small lead.

    you could stick your head up your erchie and just go with that
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,301
    edited September 2014
    isam said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I wish this judge would get an effing move on.

    Imagine how long this must feel for Mr Pistorius. Like a chinese water torture !
    He should have used the defence "who hasn't got pissed on Valentine's Day and shot his load all over his girlfriend" defence.

    He'd have been found not guilty months ago

    For someone who gets uppity themselves over certain things you can be extremely insensitive and crude, it's not a good trait.

    Why joke over someone's death? An innocent person was killed, someone's daughter, and you make crude jokes about it?
    I don't get uppity.

    Anyone who knows me, knows my sense of humour is well, pretty wrong.

    I'm sure you'll post a video of Enoch Powell predicting in the 60s that Pistorius would shoot his girlfriend.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 59,994
    edited September 2014
    This is an even more facile argument. Lenders will think and do as we believe they will. End of.

    Q: “But if Scotland didn’t accept any of the UK’s national debt, wouldn’t it be punished by the international markets? Why would anyone lend Scotland money?”

    A: Because it’s not Scotland’s debt. Scotland had no say over it being taken out - it’s the UK government’s debt, the UK decided where to spend it and the UK has already accepted full liability for it. If you’re living in a rented flat and the landlord defaults on his mortgage, YOU don’t get a bad credit rating.

    Lenders don’t care in the least about the UK’s internal political wrangles - they lend based on whether they think they’ll get paid back or not, and Scotland is a wealthy country with plenty of security for any debt it took out. It would be a very low risk for any lender.

    But as we explored in Chapter 2, an independent Scotland would be likely to need far less lending anyway, so even if it had to pay slightly higher interest on its borrowing it could afford to do so.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    If we get an English Parliament with the same powers as a DevoMax Scotland we then have the very real problem of what the UK government is for other than foreign policy and defence. At that point it seems a little bit wasteful to have all those MPs sat at Westminster twiddling their thumbs until the next crisis blows up... And a UK PM would essentially be stripped of any authority on the domestic stage, being someone we wheel out occasionally for EU summits (assuming we stay in) and the odd photo op with the US President.

    If Scotland really does get significant new powers in the tax and spend sphere, rather than DevoMax doesn't this really become CurrencyUnionPlus? Not sure why Salmonds really that bothered about independence now, looks like we'll gift him what he wants if everyone votes no...

    Foreign policy and defence are important however. Add in immigration, justice, and overall economic policy, and there's still a very big role for Parliament. But, probably with fewer MPs,

    Alternatively, we devolve more power to the Counties. Or have a rule that only English MPs may vote on issues that affect England.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @TSE

    "Anyone who knows me, knows my sense of humour is well, pretty wrong. "

    You are a wicked child!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,639
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: ..So RBS havent said publicly or to staff there will be "no impact" on jobs. Fwiw, typically moves like this mean a few hundred not 1000s..

    Those just in too

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook · 53 mins
    RBS chief exec to staff: moving registered office post-independence “is not an intention to move operations or jobs.” #indyref #RBS

    James Cook ‏@BBCJamesCook · 54 mins
    RBS chief exec Ross McEwan to staff: re-domiciling would be a “technical procedure” re location of “registered head office.” #indyref
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,209
    Socrates said:

    @Plato

    England fans the other night were singing "F### off Scotland"...

    They kept telling us on here that English supporters loved us and always supported Scotland, were they at the porkies
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,141

    This is an even more facile argument. Lenders will think and do as we believe they will. End of.

    Q: “But if Scotland didn’t accept any of the UK’s national debt, wouldn’t it be punished by the international markets? Why would anyone lend Scotland money?”

    A: Because it’s not Scotland’s debt. Scotland had no say over it being taken out - it’s the UK government’s debt, the UK decided where to spend it and the UK has already accepted full liability for it. If you’re living in a rented flat and the landlord defaults on his mortgage, YOU don’t get a bad credit rating.

    Lenders don’t care in the least about the UK’s internal political wrangles - they lend based on whether they think they’ll get paid back or not, and Scotland is a wealthy country with plenty of security for any debt it took out. It would be a very low risk for any lender.

    But as we explored in Chapter 2, an independent Scotland would be likely to need far less lending anyway, so even if it had to pay slightly higher interest on its borrowing it could afford to do so.

    I wish them joy of that!
This discussion has been closed.