" The economics of independence are not close at all. Scotland will be worse off in the short-term, the medium term and in the long term if it votes for independence.
It's not clear whether the guy is kidding himself or just outright lying. He hasnt a clue how Scotland will do relative to staying in the union in the long term.
If being Scottish trumps all that then fair enough. But we are being sold a fantasy.
Gandhi:
- "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
David is confused re why the plebs do not just keep eating cake and getting on with their lot
David is worried there will be a lot less cake for the plebs to eat.
LOL, you are a big feartie
No Malcolm, I am worried about my fellow citizens who need help and support. I am reasonably well paid and can provide for my family. Of course I will end up paying more tax on less income but we will not go hungry.
The inevitable cuts in public spending will hurt the poor, the disabled, the old and the ill. They always do.
If you take the optimistic YES view where people will get stuck in and do something about it then it can all be different as a myriad of other small countries show. .
The Big McSociety.
Righty ho, the unemployed have been held back from working by the rUK oppressors.
Let's see if they rise from their seats and go for it, or get angry with Eck when austerity kicks in.
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Probably the last one with a Lancaster and Vulcan too then.......
Now lets assume that there is a YES vote and the economic turmoil and recession predicted consequently does happen.
I hope everyone remembers that we're already running a £100bn budget deficit, do we let it rise to £200bn so that everyone can keep buying the imported tat and taking the foreign holidays they feel it is now their right to have ?
What was that phrase about mending roofs and shining suns ?
At the marked point I switched-off: Are you suggesting currently Scotland adds £100bn to reducing the deficit...?
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Went to the Tall Ships Festival at Greenwich yesterday. It's still on until Tuesday. Though some ships are moored at Woolwich, which I also visited, and also near the O2 (former Dome) which I may visit later today.
That's truly idiotic logic. The correctness of an argument is unrelated to the person making it.
Logic ceased being part of the iCampaign some time ago.
I think we're seeing YES is not about logic. It's about identity. I can fully understand why many Scots want a YES and to be fully in charge of their own country. I'd vote YES if I was Scottish. But partly that's because I'm an economically dry rightie and YES will lead (via a deep lefty meltdown) to a small state pro-enterprise Scotland (either that or they all just starve).
The anger stems from the lies being told to a perhaps uncritical or unthinking Scottish electorate that they can get the freedom and still keep all the jam. Salmond may be a hero in a month - but he'll have his head on a spike in the Grassmarket in 5 years time.
Now lets assume that there is a YES vote and the economic turmoil and recession predicted consequently does happen.
I hope everyone remembers that we're already running a £100bn budget deficit, do we let it rise to £200bn so that everyone can keep buying the imported tat and taking the foreign holidays they feel it is now their right to have ?
What was that phrase about mending roofs and shining suns ?
At the marked point I switched-off: Are you suggesting currently Scotland adds £100bn to reducing the deficit...?
Try reading the first paragraph.
If we get a recession because of a YES vote then the deficit will rise.
That's truly idiotic logic. The correctness of an argument is unrelated to the person making it.
Logic ceased being part of the iCampaign some time ago.
I think we're seeing YES is not about logic. It's about identity. I can fully understand why many Scots want a YES and to be fully in charge of their own country. I'd vote YES if I was Scottish. But partly that's because I'm an economically dry rightie and YES will lead (via a deep lefty meltdown) to a small state pro-enterprise Scotland (either that or they all just starve).
The anger stems from the lies being told to a perhaps uncritical or unthinking Scottish electorate that they can get the freedom and still keep all the jam. Salmond may be a hero in a month - but he'll have his head on a spike in the Grassmarket in 5 years time.
I don't think it is about identity at all. Scots have had enough of being ruled by people like Thatcher, Blair and Cameron and independence offers them a way out. They realise it will be a rocky ride but it's the chance to live in a society most of them would feel more comfortable with.
. But partly that's because I'm an economically dry rightie and YES will lead (via a deep lefty meltdown) to a small state pro-enterprise Scotland (either that or they all just starve).
That's truly idiotic logic. The correctness of an argument is unrelated to the person making it.
Logic ceased being part of the iCampaign some time ago.
I think we're seeing YES is not about logic. It's about identity. I can fully understand why many Scots want a YES and to be fully in charge of their own country. I'd vote YES if I was Scottish. But partly that's because I'm an economically dry rightie and YES will lead (via a deep lefty meltdown) to a small state pro-enterprise Scotland (either that or they all just starve).
The anger stems from the lies being told to a perhaps uncritical or unthinking Scottish electorate that they can get the freedom and still keep all the jam. Salmond may be a hero in a month - but he'll have his head on a spike in the Grassmarket in 5 years time.
I don't think it is about identity at all. Scots have had enough of being ruled by people like Thatcher, Blair and Cameron and independence offers them a way out. They realise it will be a rocky ride but it's the chance to live in a society most of them would feel more comfortable with.
The English have had enough of Scottish MPs influencing their lives, so it's a winner on both sides.
Has anyone warned Warren Buffet that SeanT is playing the financial markets ?
And has anyone explained to our bewailing BritNat that he could hedge his finances by betting on a YES vote and/or on Cameron resigning , both on which he seems confident off.
You seem oddly irritated that I have been proved right about almost everything.
Speaking of being always right, or wrong, it's a shame tim isn't here. He used to scoff very loudly at the idea Scots would ever vote YES, when I suggested it was clearly possible.
His reputation as a political soothsayer is unjustified.
Has anyone warned Warren Buffet that SeanT is playing the financial markets ?
And has anyone explained to our bewailing BritNat that he could hedge his finances by betting on a YES vote and/or on Cameron resigning , both on which he seems confident off.
You seem oddly irritated that I have been proved right about almost everything.
Speaking of being always right, or wrong, it's a shame tim isn't here. He used to scoff very loudly at the idea Scots would ever vote YES, when I suggested it was clearly possible.
His reputation as a political soothsayer is unjustified.
As some of us know to our profit.
He also believed that Darling was the best the Labour party had to offer. Admittedly a very low bar but even so...
Off out to canvass again feeling vaguely Churchillian.
"We will fight them on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"
I have concluded that the chances of my being obliged to eat a plate of haggis, neeps and tatties washed down with a pint of Bellhaven is alot higher than it was. And also that us turnips are indeed turnips. ;-)
But joyous frabjous day! Whatever happens we're going to be seeing either a more federal UK or its equivalent in an England shorn of Scotland. Barnett, WLQ, EV4EL - all those constitutional anomalies will need to get addressed now even if we scrape a NO..
For all the 'woe is me, my country oh my country' stuff - which the Brit in me agrees with - there is also the deep thrill of potential freedom at last for the Englishman in me. That and the impact of 59 less lefty effwit MPs in Westminster.
So I'll buy my popcorn and watch the productive bits of Scotland migrate south over the next decade as what's left north of the (guarded) border descends into its bankruptopia. They're going to get what they voted for.
As several people on Twitter have pointed out, wouldn't any announcement of hard and fast devomax/federalism plans be breaking the purdah rules? Suggests that whatever is produced will be more fuzzy waffle.
You cant purdah a political party. You purdah Governments (well, their officials). Each of the three unionist parties have their own versions of further devolution (not sure whether any of them qualifies as Devomax but then it was never entirely clear what Devomax was) and they are free to advertise / change them whenever they want. How Labour gets over the embarrassment of being seen to not trust the Scots to vary their own tax rates is difficult to guess.
So no Treasury, BoE, MoD etc briefing, and any possible devomax statement or statements will depend on the trust and personal esteem felt for the pols making them? Excellent!
Failing to agree on what 'no' meant was probably the biggest strategic error of BT and probably Labour is most to blame for that (certainly their offering would seem to be by far the least likely to attract wavering voters).
I disagree with that. Had 'No' put forward a unified political case for 'afters', it would simply have done the SNP's bidding, in dividing Scottish politics into permanent Yes and No camps, and in the process diminished the broad alliance of No. If Yes does win, it will not be because No has not put forward an alternative (there is no need for just one; a referendum is not a choice between two options, it is a choice between one and the rest), it will be because they have not discredited the proposal for independence advanced.
The proposal is "Should Scotland should be an independent country". How do you go about discrediting that? Better Together have failed to put together a coherent case for the Union and this desperately muddled 'constitutional convention' simply makes it worse.
Now a No vote is a vote for massive, unspecified, constitutional change - exactly the message they've been using to attack the Yes vote for the last two years.
The Better Together campaign should have been called the 'Let's stay together' campaign. The Bryan Ferry song 'Let's stick together' should have been the theme tune. It should have featured people from all over the UK from the very beginning -that's the nature of togetherness vs. separation. EMOTION beats facts every time. Sad but true. That's why humanity gets itself in such a f****ng mess all the time.
That's truly idiotic logic. The correctness of an argument is unrelated to the person making it.
Logic ceased being part of the iCampaign some time ago.
I think we're seeing YES is not about logic. It's about identity. I can fully understand why many Scots want a YES and to be fully in charge of their own country. I'd vote YES if I was Scottish. But partly that's because I'm an economically dry rightie and YES will lead (via a deep lefty meltdown) to a small state pro-enterprise Scotland (either that or they all just starve).
The anger stems from the lies being told to a perhaps uncritical or unthinking Scottish electorate that they can get the freedom and still keep all the jam. Salmond may be a hero in a month - but he'll have his head on a spike in the Grassmarket in 5 years time.
I don't think it is about identity at all. Scots have had enough of being ruled by people like Thatcher, Blair and Cameron and independence offers them a way out. They realise it will be a rocky ride but it's the chance to live in a society most of them would feel more comfortable with.
The English have had enough of Scottish MPs influencing their lives, so it's a winner on both sides.
But England dominates the Union. Whatever the problems with the WLQ, there is no comparison.
Are 'Vote No Borders' the Reivers and Pentlands? [Ignorance: Never heard of them.]
The SNP vocalisation of "Berwick" could cause no hell of anguish for [an independent] Scotland and England....
Have a look at the back files of Wings and Newsnet - you'll find out more about VNB, who are considered to be an astroturf front for Labour, IIRC, mounted by PR professionals.
Pentlands = range of hills running SW from Edinburgh outskirts. No idea how they come to be part of the story!
And if one keeps going in that direction, one ends up in Galloway, which reminds me of Mr Coburn MEP's recent tweet in which he spreads a little calm and lightness:
David Coburn MEP @DavidCoburnUKip · 13h We will be preparing some Whicker men for Mr Salmond & Co - post No vote 18th Sept #UKIP Scotland
(For those who do not know, a Wicker Man is allegedly an ancient instrument of human sacrifice in Celtic societies, vide, IIRC, Tacitus De vitam Agricolae, and the 1973 film The Wicker Man.).
The proposal is "Should Scotland should be an independent country". How do you go about discrediting that? Better Together have failed to put together a coherent case for the Union and this desperately muddled 'constitutional convention' simply makes it worse.
Now a No vote is a vote for massive, unspecified, constitutional change - exactly the message they've been using to attack the Yes vote for the last two years.
The proposal should have been 'Should Scotland separate from the rest of the United Kingdom'. 'an independent country' is not factual. Scotland will remain within (or rejoin) a European Union whose edicts take precedence over national legislation. The alternative would have been 'Should Scotland remain within the United Kingdom'.
Cameron and his inner circle have NEVER been pro-British -that's what people continually fail to understand as they flail about looking for reasons of their shitness and continual dropping of the ball. Is it SamCam? is it because he's too 'chillaxed'? Is it because he's too confident? Whether or not they wanted to lose the union I don't know, but I would confidently state that they didn't want a rout for Scottish nationalism and a triumphant endorsement of the Union. It would run counter to 40 years of EU policy.
I don't think No are losing, but introducing this ludicrously confusing messaging is a massive mis-step.
Not sure how it can be confusing if it is published and agreed upon by all parties. Surely it's the opposite -it's more confusing to have offered it yet not specified what it will be.
Re-reading Casino's original comment, support for the Bedroom Tax was, he said, only given by "a couple" of people. It may be that those particular individuals don't support the principles of social housing or progressive taxation either. They've every right to their views, but we shouldn't mislead ourselves into supposing that they're widely shared in Britain as a whole.
What I don't understand about the so called "Bedroom tax" is that is only held to be obnoxious when applied to people who rent from a public landlord. If a person rents from a private landlord the same "tax" is applied and that is held to be right and proper. The fact that two people in identical circumstances will get different levels of benefit depending on who their landlord is strikes me as bizarre.
Isn't the Tory bedroom tax simply intended to correct precisely that anomaly brought in by Labour?
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
I don't think No are losing, but introducing this ludicrously confusing messaging is a massive mis-step.
Not sure how it can be confusing if it is published and agreed upon by all parties. Surely it's the opposite -it's more confusing to have offered it yet not specified what it will be.
Because they are talking about a conversation, they might be able to commit to the terms of the conversation but they cannot say what the outcome would be. and if the outcome actually involves genuine devo-max, full control for Scotland over it's revenue streams including a geographic share of oil, then that is so radical a redrawing of Britain's constitutional arrangement that it is not one that can simply be settled by the will of the Scottish people. It would require a UK wide referendum on, effectively, federalism.
There is so much uncertainty about this proposal that it boggles the mind they are even suggesting it as a way of trying to spike independence's guns. It destroys, in one day, the last two years of narrative they have built about not voting for uncertainty.
A No vote is not longer a vote for certainty, suddenly the Yes vote becomes the simpler, easier to understand choice.
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Awwww ... how nice it would be to see a Vulcan flying again.
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
I don't think No are losing, but introducing this ludicrously confusing messaging is a massive mis-step.
Not sure how it can be confusing if it is published and agreed upon by all parties. Surely it's the opposite -it's more confusing to have offered it yet not specified what it will be.
Because they are talking about a conversation, they might be able to commit to the terms of the conversation but they cannot say what the outcome would be. and if the outcome actually involves genuine devo-max, full control for Scotland over it's revenue streams including a geographic share of oil, then that is so radical a redrawing of Britain's constitutional arrangement that it is not one that can simply be settled by the will of the Scottish people. It would require a UK wide referendum on, effectively, federalism.
There is so much uncertainty about this proposal that it boggles the mind they are even suggesting it as a way of trying to spike independence's guns. It destroys, in one day, the last two years of narrative they have built about not voting for uncertainty.
A No vote is not longer a vote for certainty, suddenly the Yes vote becomes the simpler, easier to understand choice.
Excellent post. And with a very important conclusion.
I don't think No are losing, but introducing this ludicrously confusing messaging is a massive mis-step.
Not sure how it can be confusing if it is published and agreed upon by all parties. Surely it's the opposite -it's more confusing to have offered it yet not specified what it will be.
Because they are talking about a conversation, they might be able to commit to the terms of the conversation but they cannot say what the outcome would be. and if the outcome actually involves genuine devo-max, full control for Scotland over it's revenue streams including a geographic share of oil, then that is so radical a redrawing of Britain's constitutional arrangement that it is not one that can simply be settled by the will of the Scottish people. It would require a UK wide referendum on, effectively, federalism.
There is so much uncertainty about this proposal that it boggles the mind they are even suggesting it as a way of trying to spike independence's guns. It destroys, in one day, the last two years of narrative they have built about not voting for uncertainty.
A No vote is not longer a vote for certainty, suddenly the Yes vote becomes the simpler, easier to understand choice.
The obvious point is that any change in the constitutional position of Scotland, short of independence, will have to be negotiated by the next UK government. None of the Tories, Labour or the current Coalition are in a position to say what that would be or to bind their successors.
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
But only 6,000 on a low turnout. Is this a UKIP opportunity for Paul Nuttall?
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
But only 6,000 on a low turnout. Is this a UKIP opportunity for Paul Nuttall?
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
But only 6,000 on a low turnout. Is this a UKIP opportunity for Paul Nuttall?
I'm sceptical. Manchester has been a dead zone for UKIP so far (see W&SE) and they only got 2.6% in 2010, below their average. A 7% BNP vote gives them a decent start, but I think they'll be aiming to be beat the Tories into 2nd like in W&SE.
Suffice to say, if anyone does want to offer odds on a non-Labour victory I'd be interested.
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
But only 6,000 on a low turnout. Is this a UKIP opportunity for Paul Nuttall?
Yes, I'm sure they're just desperate for a Scouse MP - after all, they're all northern!
I don't think No are losing, but introducing this ludicrously confusing messaging is a massive mis-step.
Not sure how it can be confusing if it is published and agreed upon by all parties. Surely it's the opposite -it's more confusing to have offered it yet not specified what it will be.
Because they are talking about a conversation, they might be able to commit to the terms of the conversation but they cannot say what the outcome would be. and if the outcome actually involves genuine devo-max, full control for Scotland over it's revenue streams including a geographic share of oil, then that is so radical a redrawing of Britain's constitutional arrangement that it is not one that can simply be settled by the will of the Scottish people. It would require a UK wide referendum on, effectively, federalism.
There is so much uncertainty about this proposal that it boggles the mind they are even suggesting it as a way of trying to spike independence's guns. It destroys, in one day, the last two years of narrative they have built about not voting for uncertainty.
A No vote is not longer a vote for certainty, suddenly the Yes vote becomes the simpler, easier to understand choice.
You're immensely flattering 'yes' if you think this vote was ever about understanding. If the good people of Clackmanannshire and Linlithgow knew what the realities of seperation (but remaining within the vice like grip of the EU) meant, there would be no referendum. Yes is 'riding the tiger' of the working class vote. They are playing on emotions, and one of the biggest of these (despite accusations flowing the other way) is fear -fear that Westminster will exact 'revenge' on Scotland for having the gall to hold a referendum in the first place.
The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues without the economic and social pain of separation removes this fear. Nationalists can see this as 'spiking their guns' if they wish, or they can see it as victory without a shot being fired. I suppose that would depend on whether their motivation is the well-being of Scotland or a chance to lash out at England.
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
Britain Elects @britainelects 10s Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
He's held the seat since 1997 (the former MP was Jim Callaghan, interestingly). For the unsentimental of you (edit: OK, 'us') who are already thinking about the by-election: His majority was 13% in 2010 and Labour have a large LD vote to squeeze.
But only 6,000 on a low turnout. Is this a UKIP opportunity for Paul Nuttall?
I'm sceptical. Manchester has been a dead zone for UKIP so far (see W&SE) and they only got 2.6% in 2010, below their average. A 7% BNP vote gives them a decent start, but I think they'll be happy to beat the LDs to third.
RIP Jim Dobbin.
It is interesting to note that this seat is in the Borough of Rochdale which saw its own grooming scandal recently. Wonder whether that will have any effect. I expect UKIP will get 20-25% but unlikely to be enough to take this seat
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Awwww ... how nice it would be to see a Vulcan flying again.
I once did a driving training day which included some track work at Bruntingthorpe, where the Vulcan was based, at one point we had to pull over to allow it to land. Awesome - from about as close up as you can get.
... driving the tangible swing to Yes, with Labour voters leading the charge. Will it be enough? Who knows?
The emerging truth in the last week or so is that it appears no longer to be about the Don’t Knows, although they matter. It is increasingly all about the Nos. More and more of them are changing their minds.
Whether it is enough to win a positive result remains to be seen. Yes remains the underdog whatever the noise of the polls tell us today and in the days to come.
I can’t really tell why. There has been no game-changing moment. But the game has certainly changed. Hope is conquering fear. If we step back from the party fray, we know a deep reality that deserves a more regular airing. There is far, far more that unites this country than divides us.
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Awwww ... how nice it would be to see a Vulcan flying again.
I once did a driving training day which included some track work at Bruntingthorpe, where the Vulcan was based, at one point we had to pull over to allow it to land. Awesome - from about as close up as you can get.
Watched the Vulcan circling over Cranleigh as part of an airshow display at Dunsfold, a couple of weeks ago. Heart stoppingly loud! When it came to the design of strategic nuclear bombers in the 1950's and 60's, sound pollution was clearly not a priority.
The proposal is "Should Scotland should be an independent country". How do you go about discrediting that? Better Together have failed to put together a coherent case for the Union and this desperately muddled 'constitutional convention' simply makes it worse.
Now a No vote is a vote for massive, unspecified, constitutional change - exactly the message they've been using to attack the Yes vote for the last two years.
The proposal should have been 'Should Scotland separate from the rest of the United Kingdom'. 'an independent country' is not factual. Scotland will remain within (or rejoin) a European Union whose edicts take precedence over national legislation. The alternative would have been 'Should Scotland remain within the United Kingdom'.
Cameron and his inner circle have NEVER been pro-British -that's what people continually fail to understand as they flail about looking for reasons of their shitness and continual dropping of the ball. Is it SamCam? is it because he's too 'chillaxed'? Is it because he's too confident? Whether or not they wanted to lose the union I don't know, but I would confidently state that they didn't want a rout for Scottish nationalism and a triumphant endorsement of the Union. It would run counter to 40 years of EU policy.
If your theory rang true, the vote would have been nationwide, thus guaranteeing a break up.
The proposal is "Should Scotland should be an independent country". How do you go about discrediting that? Better Together have failed to put together a coherent case for the Union and this desperately muddled 'constitutional convention' simply makes it worse.
Now a No vote is a vote for massive, unspecified, constitutional change - exactly the message they've been using to attack the Yes vote for the last two years.
The proposal should have been 'Should Scotland separate from the rest of the United Kingdom'. 'an independent country' is not factual. Scotland will remain within (or rejoin) a European Union whose edicts take precedence over national legislation. The alternative would have been 'Should Scotland remain within the United Kingdom'.
Cameron and his inner circle have NEVER been pro-British -that's what people continually fail to understand as they flail about looking for reasons of their shitness and continual dropping of the ball. Is it SamCam? is it because he's too 'chillaxed'? Is it because he's too confident? Whether or not they wanted to lose the union I don't know, but I would confidently state that they didn't want a rout for Scottish nationalism and a triumphant endorsement of the Union. It would run counter to 40 years of EU policy.
If your theory rang true, the vote would have been nationwide, thus guaranteeing a break up.
I'm not sure what you mean? A nationwide vote on Scottish separation?
... driving the tangible swing to Yes, with Labour voters leading the charge. Will it be enough? Who knows?
The emerging truth in the last week or so is that it appears no longer to be about the Don’t Knows, although they matter. It is increasingly all about the Nos. More and more of them are changing their minds.
Whether it is enough to win a positive result remains to be seen. Yes remains the underdog whatever the noise of the polls tell us today and in the days to come.
I can’t really tell why. There has been no game-changing moment. But the game has certainly changed. Hope is conquering fear. If we step back from the party fray, we know a deep reality that deserves a more regular airing. There is far, far more that unites this country than divides us.
Get the impression that "Better Together" has actually turned into "Bitter Together”. And I know NPXMP said that he’d been greeted in a friendly fashion when canvassing, but thgat doesn’t preclude people from being unhappy at “outsiders” coming in and “telling them what to do”.
‘Well, hello, United Kingdom. How nice it is finally to have your attention.” If the Scottish referendum could talk, that’s what it would be saying right now. It can’t talk, but it will say one word – on 19 September, after the votes are counted. Suddenly Westminster has realised that until that day, there’s no way of knowing what word the people of Scotland are going to say. Suddenly Westminster has cottoned on to the fact that it ought to have been listening all along, just a bit.
The assumption has always been that Scotland will say no to independence. Now, that assumption looks complacent. Now, Westminster is in a panic.
... Scotland got its referendum because it asked for it. Westminster’s been “asking for it” for a long time. It underestimated the Scots, and it underestimates the rest of the people of Britain too. Everyone in the UK can seize the initiative, as Scotland has. Start thinking about possibilities, instead of accepting stasis. Start seeking conversation, instead of putting up with pontification. Start talking. Start hoping.
Developed and sophisticated democracy can thrive in our four countries, replacing a tired old adversarial system, built for days gone by and resting on its withered laurels. Join Scotland, people of the UK, and liberate yourselves. For that, paradoxically, is the only thing that can keep us together.
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Awwww ... how nice it would be to see a Vulcan flying again.
I once did a driving training day which included some track work at Bruntingthorpe, where the Vulcan was based, at one point we had to pull over to allow it to land. Awesome - from about as close up as you can get.
Watched the Vulcan circling over Cranleigh as part of an airshow display at Dunsfold, a couple of weeks ago. Heart stoppingly loud! When it came to the design of strategic nuclear bombers in the 1950's and 60's, sound pollution was clearly not a priority.
As a child in Scotland I was playing on the beach, oblivious to the air show nearby. I knew all about it when a Vulcan came in for a low pass right over my head! I was shaking for several minutes. Passing Leuchars we used to stop to watch the Lightnings take off - spectacular!
He also believed that Darling was the best the Labour party had to offer. Admittedly a very low bar but even so...
Off out to canvass again feeling vaguely Churchillian.
"We will fight them on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"
Try the streets and houses. No wonder your getting trounced in Dundee.
... driving the tangible swing to Yes, with Labour voters leading the charge. Will it be enough? Who knows?
The emerging truth in the last week or so is that it appears no longer to be about the Don’t Knows, although they matter. It is increasingly all about the Nos. More and more of them are changing their minds.
Whether it is enough to win a positive result remains to be seen. Yes remains the underdog whatever the noise of the polls tell us today and in the days to come.
I can’t really tell why. There has been no game-changing moment. But the game has certainly changed. Hope is conquering fear. If we step back from the party fray, we know a deep reality that deserves a more regular airing. There is far, far more that unites this country than divides us.
The proposal is "Should Scotland should be an independent country". How do you go about discrediting that? Better Together have failed to put together a coherent case for the Union and this desperately muddled 'constitutional convention' simply makes it worse.
Now a No vote is a vote for massive, unspecified, constitutional change - exactly the message they've been using to attack the Yes vote for the last two years.
The proposal should have been 'Should Scotland separate from the rest of the United Kingdom'. 'an independent country' is not factual. Scotland will remain within (or rejoin) a European Union whose edicts take precedence over national legislation. The alternative would have been 'Should Scotland remain within the United Kingdom'.
Cameron and his inner circle have NEVER been pro-British -that's what people continually fail to understand as they flail about looking for reasons of their shitness and continual dropping of the ball. Is it SamCam? is it because he's too 'chillaxed'? Is it because he's too confident? Whether or not they wanted to lose the union I don't know, but I would confidently state that they didn't want a rout for Scottish nationalism and a triumphant endorsement of the Union. It would run counter to 40 years of EU policy.
If your theory rang true, the vote would have been nationwide, thus guaranteeing a break up.
I'm not sure what you mean? A nationwide vote on Scottish separation?
... The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues...
All the issues? Does that include England having the same powers as the Scots for its own taxes etc.? And Wales? And NI?
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
I have long said that the reason the better together campaign could not put forward a positive case for the Union is because there isn't one. Throwing up a half-hearted, ill thought-out attempt of a bribe two weeks before the off is a sign of panic not a reasonable grown-up reaction to the underlying issues.
... The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues...
All the issues? Does that include England having the same powers as the Scots for its own taxes etc.? And Wales? And NI?
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
I have long said that the reason the better together campaign could not put forward a positive case for the Union is because there isn't one. Throwing up a half-hearted, ill thought-out attempt of a bribe two weeks before the off is a sign of panic not a reasonable grown-up reaction to the underlying issues.
Its the equivalent of giving an unhappy wife a new car to stop them divorcing you.
Just 11 days to save the Union: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to stop Alex Salmond by giving Scotland more powers as Yes camp takes the lead in shock opinion poll - Panicking Westminster MPs will offer sweeping new powers to Scotland - George Osborne reveals Holyrood will have new control on tax and welfare - The radical plan will be unveiled in the 'next few days' to stave off separation
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Awwww ... how nice it would be to see a Vulcan flying again.
I once did a driving training day which included some track work at Bruntingthorpe, where the Vulcan was based, at one point we had to pull over to allow it to land. Awesome - from about as close up as you can get.
Watched the Vulcan circling over Cranleigh as part of an airshow display at Dunsfold, a couple of weeks ago. Heart stoppingly loud! When it came to the design of strategic nuclear bombers in the 1950's and 60's, sound pollution was clearly not a priority.
I thought of going to that, but didn't fancy the traffic getting in and out of Dunsfold. I do live close enough to Farnborough to get the airshow for free, though.
... The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues...
All the issues? Does that include England having the same powers as the Scots for its own taxes etc.? And Wales? And NI?
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
I have long said that the reason the better together campaign could not put forward a positive case for the Union is because there isn't one. Throwing up a half-hearted, ill thought-out attempt of a bribe two weeks before the off is a sign of panic not a reasonable grown-up reaction to the underlying issues.
Exactly. Individual countries within the Union should not have more powers or privilege over tax raising etc than others. Any politicians daft enough to suggest otherwise, will reap their just rewards at the ballot box.
Well I am off to the Airshow , lovely sunny day and should be nice to see Vulcan , Lancaster, etc. last airshow as a British subject , next one I will be a free man.
Awwww ... how nice it would be to see a Vulcan flying again.
I once did a driving training day which included some track work at Bruntingthorpe, where the Vulcan was based, at one point we had to pull over to allow it to land. Awesome - from about as close up as you can get.
Watched the Vulcan circling over Cranleigh as part of an airshow display at Dunsfold, a couple of weeks ago. Heart stoppingly loud! When it came to the design of strategic nuclear bombers in the 1950's and 60's, sound pollution was clearly not a priority.
I thought of going to that, but didn't fancy the traffic getting in and out of Dunsfold. I do live close enough to Farnborough to get the airshow for free, though.
The view from the meadows, west of Cranleigh was good enough. Hardly any traffic.
... The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues...
All the issues? Does that include England having the same powers as the Scots for its own taxes etc.? And Wales? And NI?
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
Given the British constitution has been royally screwed over the last few years by making piecemeal changes, it would seem preferable to let the Scots go quietly than offer to make further ill-thought out constitutional change in their interests.
... The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues...
All the issues? Does that include England having the same powers as the Scots for its own taxes etc.? And Wales? And NI?
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
I have long said that the reason the better together campaign could not put forward a positive case for the Union is because there isn't one. Throwing up a half-hearted, ill thought-out attempt of a bribe two weeks before the off is a sign of panic not a reasonable grown-up reaction to the underlying issues.
Certainly it means starting down that road, yes.
I agree it would be panicked -not a bad thing to my mind; if something is panicked, it's less likely to be a stitch up.
Just 11 days to save the Union: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to stop Alex Salmond by giving Scotland more powers as Yes camp takes the lead in shock opinion poll - Panicking Westminster MPs will offer sweeping new powers to Scotland - George Osborne reveals Holyrood will have new control on tax and welfare - The radical plan will be unveiled in the 'next few days' to stave off separation
... The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues...
All the issues? Does that include England having the same powers as the Scots for its own taxes etc.? And Wales? And NI?
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
I have long said that the reason the better together campaign could not put forward a positive case for the Union is because there isn't one. Throwing up a half-hearted, ill thought-out attempt of a bribe two weeks before the off is a sign of panic not a reasonable grown-up reaction to the underlying issues.
Exactly. Individual countries within the Union should not have more powers or privilege over tax raising etc than others. Any politicians daft enough to suggest otherwise, will reap their just rewards at the ballot box.
There are two possibilities on this: 1. This process forces the recognition of the democratic deficit to England and we get movement on that front 2. English issues are ignored, and the process causes more and more people in England to demand change.
InitfortheMoney Though Panelbase unchanged since August
Devomax + English votes for English laws at Westminster the way forward, and if a Labour government has to alter English domestic legislation to win over enough English MPs so be it
"If your theory rang true, the vote would have been nationwide, thus guaranteeing a break up."
Who in England aside, from the politicians, cares about the Union? SeanT, obviously, but how many others. Whenever I have tried to raise the issue in the most scientific survey known to man, i.e. the blokes down the New Inn, the reactions I get range from "Good riddance" to "Sad to see 'em go. Whose round is it?" When I have been out knocking doors on behalf of the Dark Side I have tried to raise the issue, just as an experiment you understand, and have not yet met anyone who wanted to talk about it. I have yet to meet anyone who gives a big rats arse.
A political party that bribes the Scots to stay whilst not obviously looking after the interests of the English may be making a huge mistake.
Just 11 days to save the Union: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to stop Alex Salmond by giving Scotland more powers as Yes camp takes the lead in shock opinion poll - Panicking Westminster MPs will offer sweeping new powers to Scotland - George Osborne reveals Holyrood will have new control on tax and welfare - The radical plan will be unveiled in the 'next few days' to stave off separation
Ridiculous. The Yes side will rightly point out this could have been done months or even years ago. Now, we get a hotch-potch of back of the envelope panic measures that will affect us all, not just the Scots. It will be rightly dismissed in Scotland as too little too late. Our JCR elite has messed this up royally and are fighting to save their legacies. No chance. They have lost the Union and will inflict on us all - from John O'Groats to Land's End, via the Pembroke Coast and Giant's Causeway - years of unnecessary confrontation, grief and economic pain. They have already written their places in history.
... The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues...
All the issues? Does that include England having the same powers as the Scots for its own taxes etc.? And Wales? And NI?
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
I have long said that the reason the better together campaign could not put forward a positive case for the Union is because there isn't one. Throwing up a half-hearted, ill thought-out attempt of a bribe two weeks before the off is a sign of panic not a reasonable grown-up reaction to the underlying issues.
Such a deal would be intolerable unless agreed by all the other countries. Best not to promise what cannot be delivered not least such devomax would just be a transition to independence over a longer timescale.
The Scots have heard all the arguments by both sides, I trust their decision. I also suspect that there will be a good deal of griping whichever way it goes as promises prove to be castles in the sky.
Of course we can all be part of the United States of Europe anyway, if we want to maintain union (waves red rag at bull...)
Just 11 days to save the Union: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to stop Alex Salmond by giving Scotland more powers as Yes camp takes the lead in shock opinion poll - Panicking Westminster MPs will offer sweeping new powers to Scotland - George Osborne reveals Holyrood will have new control on tax and welfare - The radical plan will be unveiled in the 'next few days' to stave off separation
Ridiculous. The Yes side will rightly point out this could have been done months or even years ago. Now, we get a hotch-potch of back of the envelope panic measures that will affect us all, not just the Scots. It will be rightly dismissed in Scotland as too little too late. Our JCR elite has messed this up royally and are fighting to save their legacies. No chance. They have lost the Union and will inflict on us all - from John O'Groats to Land's End, via the Pembroke Coast and Giant's Causeway - years of unnecessary confrontation, grief and economic pain. They have already written their places in history.
No. It could ONLY have been done now, under duress. It's exactly the right time. The consumer needs a story -no consumer believes a special offer without a reason. No such thing as a free lunch. It must be *seen* that this is a panicked last ditch attempt to save the union; it should be tacitly admitted as such. Only then will it really be seen as genuine.
Nothing on Shadsy's blog for three days now. If he loses his employer a packet by backing the losing side at the IndyRef then PB may lose one of its most important posters.
Just 11 days to save the Union: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to stop Alex Salmond by giving Scotland more powers as Yes camp takes the lead in shock opinion poll - Panicking Westminster MPs will offer sweeping new powers to Scotland - George Osborne reveals Holyrood will have new control on tax and welfare - The radical plan will be unveiled in the 'next few days' to stave off separation
Ridiculous. The Yes side will rightly point out this could have been done months or even years ago. Now, we get a hotch-potch of back of the envelope panic measures that will affect us all, not just the Scots. It will be rightly dismissed in Scotland as too little too late. Our JCR elite has messed this up royally and are fighting to save their legacies. No chance. They have lost the Union and will inflict on us all - from John O'Groats to Land's End, via the Pembroke Coast and Giant's Causeway - years of unnecessary confrontation, grief and economic pain. They have already written their places in history.
No. It could ONLY have been done now, under duress. It's exactly the right time. The consumer needs a story -no consumer believes a special offer without a reason. No such thing as a free lunch. It must be *seen* that this is a panicked last ditch attempt to save the union; it should be tacitly admitted as such. Only then will it really be seen as genuine.
The first ministers of the constituent countries should be promoted to 'Prime Minister', like there's a Prime Minister of Nova Scotia. Why not? Salmond -detestable creature that he is- has earned his promotion tenfold.
Just 11 days to save the Union: Ministers draw up last-ditch plan to stop Alex Salmond by giving Scotland more powers as Yes camp takes the lead in shock opinion poll - Panicking Westminster MPs will offer sweeping new powers to Scotland - George Osborne reveals Holyrood will have new control on tax and welfare - The radical plan will be unveiled in the 'next few days' to stave off separation
Ridiculous. The Yes side will rightly point out this could have been done months or even years ago. Now, we get a hotch-potch of back of the envelope panic measures that will affect us all, not just the Scots. It will be rightly dismissed in Scotland as too little too late. Our JCR elite has messed this up royally and are fighting to save their legacies. No chance. They have lost the Union and will inflict on us all - from John O'Groats to Land's End, via the Pembroke Coast and Giant's Causeway - years of unnecessary confrontation, grief and economic pain. They have already written their places in history.
No. It could ONLY have been done now, under duress. It's exactly the right time. The consumer needs a story -no consumer believes a special offer without a reason. No such thing as a free lunch. It must be *seen* that this is a panicked last ditch attempt to save the union; it should be tacitly admitted as such. Only then will it really be seen as genuine.
I dont give our politicans that much credit
Most don't give them any credit at all, which is why the more this is seen as a desperate move, the better. Cameron should be front and centre on this too -people want to see him punished and humiliated -well give them that. Let him eat some serious humble pie. Don't need to break up the country to do that.
There's been a massive surge of liquidity on Betfair, thousands spread up and down the chart. A few days ago £1500 would have drained the Yes vote to evens, now it wouldn't even move the dial a pip - Bookies laying off some liability?
Slackbadder Unlike a marriage the Scots have never loved the English, polls have shown Devomax more popular than independence or status quo, if moves towards that then sensible
Something that jumps out at me is the "Honesty" question: Yes Scotland has run a mostly honest campaign has gone from 35->46 Better Together has run a mostly dishonest campaign has gone 34->44
I think that tells you something about the people sampled.
Comments
The SNP vocalisation of "Berwick" could cause no hell of anguish for [an independent] Scotland and England....
Logic ceased being part of the iCampaign some time ago.
Righty ho, the unemployed have been held back from working by the rUK oppressors.
Let's see if they rise from their seats and go for it, or get angry with Eck when austerity kicks in.
The anger stems from the lies being told to a perhaps uncritical or unthinking Scottish electorate that they can get the freedom and still keep all the jam. Salmond may be a hero in a month - but he'll have his head on a spike in the Grassmarket in 5 years time.
If we get a recession because of a YES vote then the deficit will rise.
Strictly speaking that's true but credibility is very important ......should we take the book "How Green are The Nazis?" seriously?
Would 'Jackson Pollock' have been considered great had he been called 'Ed Miliband'?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SvdecwnYJ4
(A spoof on Lady Gaga)
. But partly that's because I'm an economically dry rightie and YES will lead (via a deep lefty meltdown) to a small state pro-enterprise Scotland (either that or they all just starve).
Except that they don´t starve. They emigrate.
It works for me!
He also believed that Darling was the best the Labour party had to offer. Admittedly a very low bar but even so...
Off out to canvass again feeling vaguely Churchillian.
"We will fight them on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender"
Now a No vote is a vote for massive, unspecified, constitutional change - exactly the message they've been using to attack the Yes vote for the last two years.
The Better Together campaign should have been called the 'Let's stay together' campaign. The Bryan Ferry song 'Let's stick together' should have been the theme tune. It should have featured people from all over the UK from the very beginning -that's the nature of togetherness vs. separation. EMOTION beats facts every time. Sad but true. That's why humanity gets itself in such a f****ng mess all the time.
Pentlands = range of hills running SW from Edinburgh outskirts. No idea how they come to be part of the story!
And if one keeps going in that direction, one ends up in Galloway, which reminds me of Mr Coburn MEP's recent tweet in which he spreads a little calm and lightness:
David Coburn MEP @DavidCoburnUKip · 13h
We will be preparing some Whicker men for Mr Salmond & Co - post No vote 18th Sept #UKIP Scotland
(For those who do not know, a Wicker Man is allegedly an ancient instrument of human sacrifice in Celtic societies, vide, IIRC, Tacitus De vitam Agricolae, and the 1973 film The Wicker Man.).
Cameron and his inner circle have NEVER been pro-British -that's what people continually fail to understand as they flail about looking for reasons of their shitness and continual dropping of the ball. Is it SamCam? is it because he's too 'chillaxed'? Is it because he's too confident? Whether or not they wanted to lose the union I don't know, but I would confidently state that they didn't want a rout for Scottish nationalism and a triumphant endorsement of the Union. It would run counter to 40 years of EU policy.
Jim Dobbin, Member of Parliament for Heywood & Middleton (Grt. Manchester) has died at the age of 73.
RIP
There is so much uncertainty about this proposal that it boggles the mind they are even suggesting it as a way of trying to spike independence's guns. It destroys, in one day, the last two years of narrative they have built about not voting for uncertainty.
A No vote is not longer a vote for certainty, suddenly the Yes vote becomes the simpler, easier to understand choice.
It wasn’t “that" Jim Callaghan though.
Suffice to say, if anyone does want to offer odds on a non-Labour victory I'd be interested.
The firm promise from all parties involved of a constitutional process to settle all issues without the economic and social pain of separation removes this fear. Nationalists can see this as 'spiking their guns' if they wish, or they can see it as victory without a shot being fired. I suppose that would depend on whether their motivation is the well-being of Scotland or a chance to lash out at England.
It is interesting to note that this seat is in the Borough of Rochdale which saw its own grooming scandal recently. Wonder whether that will have any effect. I expect UKIP will get 20-25% but unlikely to be enough to take this seat
The emerging truth in the last week or so is that it appears no longer to be about the Don’t Knows, although they matter. It is increasingly all about the Nos. More and more of them are changing their minds.
Whether it is enough to win a positive result remains to be seen. Yes remains the underdog whatever the noise of the polls tell us today and in the days to come.
I can’t really tell why. There has been no game-changing moment. But the game has certainly changed. Hope is conquering fear. If we step back from the party fray, we know a deep reality that deserves a more regular airing. There is far, far more that unites this country than divides us.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/comment-vote-with-the-next-25-years-in-mind-1-3533692
Even so, it will be very tight but I think if No does scrape home it will be about 51-49%, same as the Welsh Assembly Referendum in 1999
- "Very clever of Yes campaign to install a secret agent as head of Ed Miliband's referendum strategy unit - he's playing a blinder!"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11074886/Young-voters-could-tip-the-balance-in-Scottish-independence-referendum.html
Lab 39.9% (10 wards contested out of 10)
UKIP 24.3% (8/10)
Con 21.4% (10/10)
LD 9.7% (10/10)
Ind 2.8% (1/10)
Greens 1.6% (4/10)
Labour won 7 wards, Con 2 and LibDems 1
Labour wards:
Lab 44% Ind 28%
Lab 47% UKIP 32%
Lab 52% UKIP 31%
Lab 41% UKIP 37%
Lab 42% UKIP 27%
Lab 43% UKIP 42%
Lab 50% UKIP 37%
It is happening now - postal votes.
The assumption has always been that Scotland will say no to independence. Now, that assumption looks complacent. Now, Westminster is in a panic.
... Scotland got its referendum because it asked for it. Westminster’s been “asking for it” for a long time. It underestimated the Scots, and it underestimates the rest of the people of Britain too. Everyone in the UK can seize the initiative, as Scotland has. Start thinking about possibilities, instead of accepting stasis. Start seeking conversation, instead of putting up with pontification. Start talking. Start hoping.
Developed and sophisticated democracy can thrive in our four countries, replacing a tired old adversarial system, built for days gone by and resting on its withered laurels. Join Scotland, people of the UK, and liberate yourselves. For that, paradoxically, is the only thing that can keep us together.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/05/independence-referendum-debate-intoxicated-scotland
As some of us know to our profit.
He also believed that Darling was the best the Labour party had to offer. Admittedly a very low bar but even so...
Off out to canvass again feeling vaguely Churchillian.
"We will fight them on the beaches,
we shall fight on the landing grounds,
we shall fight in the fields and in the streets,
we shall fight in the hills;
we shall never surrender"
Try the streets and houses. No wonder your getting trounced in Dundee.
I couldn't agree more, Dickson.
This looks like a panicked attempt to bribe the Scots which has not been thought through. If the Scots cannot cope with a Conservative government elected by the "majority" under our electoral system then the Union is bust and it should be dissolved.
I have long said that the reason the better together campaign could not put forward a positive case for the Union is because there isn't one. Throwing up a half-hearted, ill thought-out attempt of a bribe two weeks before the off is a sign of panic not a reasonable grown-up reaction to the underlying issues.
It rarely works
- Panicking Westminster MPs will offer sweeping new powers to Scotland
- George Osborne reveals Holyrood will have new control on tax and welfare
- The radical plan will be unveiled in the 'next few days' to stave off separation
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746699/Ministers-draw-ditch-plan-save-UK-Yes-camp-takes-lead-sparking-Miliband-warning-manned-border-posts.html#ixzz3Cd4yHhHl
http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/
Life can be scary & complicated, but we can look to the Mail for advice.
I agree it would be panicked -not a bad thing to my mind; if something is panicked, it's less likely to be a stitch up.
Yes 2/1 (various)
No 1/2 (Bwin, Betway)
Goes FAV as SkyBet cut the price to 4/6 (from 10/11 this morning).
1. This process forces the recognition of the democratic deficit to England and we get movement on that front
2. English issues are ignored, and the process causes more and more people in England to demand change.
It's all good as far as I can see.
What might UKIP rename themselves? EWIP or rUKIP?
Devomax + English votes for English laws at Westminster the way forward, and if a Labour government has to alter English domestic legislation to win over enough English MPs so be it
Turnout over 78.5% 5/6
Turnout under 78.5% 5/6
"If your theory rang true, the vote would have been nationwide, thus guaranteeing a break up."
Who in England aside, from the politicians, cares about the Union? SeanT, obviously, but how many others. Whenever I have tried to raise the issue in the most scientific survey known to man, i.e. the blokes down the New Inn, the reactions I get range from "Good riddance" to "Sad to see 'em go. Whose round is it?" When I have been out knocking doors on behalf of the Dark Side I have tried to raise the issue, just as an experiment you understand, and have not yet met anyone who wanted to talk about it. I have yet to meet anyone who gives a big rats arse.
A political party that bribes the Scots to stay whilst not obviously looking after the interests of the English may be making a huge mistake.
The Scots have heard all the arguments by both sides, I trust their decision. I also suspect that there will be a good deal of griping whichever way it goes as promises prove to be castles in the sky.
Of course we can all be part of the United States of Europe anyway, if we want to maintain union (waves red rag at bull...)
Fortunately, there just weren't enough of them. The dimwits were in charge.
http://politicalbookie.wordpress.com/
http://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/ywzyqmrf2u/Scotland_Final_140905_Sunday_Times_FINAL.pdf
Something that jumps out at me is the "Honesty" question:
Yes Scotland has run a mostly honest campaign has gone from 35->46
Better Together has run a mostly dishonest campaign has gone 34->44
I think that tells you something about the people sampled.