It is difficult to move on from this when a central plank of the religion is that Mohammad was the perfect man, and that his actions were directly endorsed by the dictated word of god.
Would Zac Goldsmith have any chance of holding Richmond Park as a UKIP candidate? Seems unlikely at first glance.
His comments as reported seem to me to be the sort from someone who knows fighting as a UKIP candidate would be hard (in addition to not marrying up perfectly with his own right now, but that's not a deal breaker of course), but it is best to head off that threat by assuring them that on pretty much everything, he will vote the way they want anyway, so no need to worry. It's like American politicians seeking to appease powerful lobby groups who might otherwise fund a primary candidate against them.
Indeed. Rotherham is just the one we've had the Jay report on. We already know there have been similar gangs jailed in other parts of the country. We also know that, as a separate issue, there is a big problem with CSE in London's youth gangs. And children's homes have been an open sore for decades. The tin foil brigade suggests that party leaders are keeping schtum because they know or fear there is more to come, and also question the "political correctness" motivation for the Rotherham cover-up, asking if police would really be that worried about upsetting a few taxi drivers.
@Hurst lama Not exactly child bride, but you get the picture that it didn't start with the Muslims? It always went on at the interface of power and poverty
Eliza Armstrong Case
In 1885, William Stead (1849-1912), editor of the Pall Mall Gazette, brought this whole issue front & center in a series of articles entitled The Maiden Tribute of Modern Babylon during the Victorian Era. He was prosecuted and imprisoned for kidnapping after he published a series of articles proving he could buy a 13 year old chimney sweep’s daughter for £5 by her own mother. His conviction was based on his failure to get “permission” to purchase the girl. Bramwell Booth of the Salvation Army helped Stead purchase the girl. She was purchased by former prostitute Rebecca Jarrett and brought to a brothel lightly-drugged & placed under the care of the Salvation Army and sent to France.
Note: the jury wasn't able to reach a verdict at the first trial, and the charges were eventually withdrawn at the second leading to not guilty verdicts.
Peter Kellner in the Sunday Times concludes with this
Let’s assume that Farage is behaving rationally. Logic suggests why he wants Labour to win. It is that his real ambition is to reshape Britain’s political Right. He wants the Tories to lose, tear themselves apart as the different wings blame each other for defeat, and then split over the best way forward. Farage would be waiting in the wings, offering to join forces with Conservative eurosceptics – so that, before long, he could take them over.
The point is not that the Conservative drama is bound play out like this, but that Farage thinks it might. If that is his dream, it is a more attractive prospect than a Cameron victory, a referendum in 2017 and (as YouGov polls suggest) a likely vote to stay in the EU. Were that to happen, Farage and Ukip would be finished.
That’s the logic; but it is not just logic. Over the years I have discussed Ukip’s prospects with a number of the party’s leading lights. I have found a simmering tension between those whose main aim is an early vote on Europe, and those who are driven more by Ukip’s long-term prospects as a political force. Either Farage is stupid – and I don’t believe he is – or he sits firmly with those who would sacrifice a referendum for a shot at lasting glory.
This seems quite plausible, indeed I would say quite likely. Monomania dissolving into megalomania. As a lifelong Tory voter I take a dim view of someone wanting to destroy the Tory party and facilitating a Labour victory as a means to this end. Clearly the Left in British politics has twice the brainpower of the Right.
Well, the "left" did it all in the early 80's didn't they? I bet in 1981 Roy and Shirl had similar views to Farage now.
Split the right. Destroy the Labour party. There will be a "realignment" that will bring the SDP to power.
Except it didn't happen. All that happened is that Maggie kept winning landslides and the Tories had 18 years of uninterrupted government because the left wing vote was divided.
I have no doubt the same will probably happen again, this time to the Right...
Have you ever considered that few voters think in terms of left and right and split this and realign that? Maybe quite a lot of voters might be attracted to a party that didn't think in those terms either. Perhaps a party that actually and simply listened to what ordinary people were worried about might actually gain considerable traction.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
@GeoffM What was the average age of the brides for his peers? Child brides were pretty common here at one time?
Child engagements, usually for political reasons, were fairly common. Occasionally marriages were conducted, but they were formal affairs, often with representatives standing in for the principals and the children returning to their parents afterwards.
Significant age gaps with children were extremely rare (to the extent that we know), although once they were adults they unusual but not unheard of (especially for women who were married at the instruction of the king).
Sex with children was frowned on before the age of 12, and definitely not before puberty in any event.
But our society has developed in the last 500 years*
* And please not it has been 20+ years since I studied blood politics, so this is all from memory
Would Zac Goldsmith have any chance of holding Richmond Park as a UKIP candidate? Seems unlikely at first glance.
It's unlikely at second glance too. Richmond Park is full of people who are doing very nicely indeed out of the status quo. Even if polling trends would suggest a three way marginal I really can't see it. You'd need a megashock to the political system and even then there'd be scores of seats UKIP would win before that one.
Peter Kellner in the Sunday Times concludes with this
Let’s assume that Farage is behaving rationally. Logic suggests why he wants Labour to win. It is that his real ambition is to reshape Britain’s political Right. He wants the Tories to lose, tear themselves apart as the different wings blame each other for defeat, and then split over the best way forward. Farage would be waiting in the wings, offering to join forces with Conservative eurosceptics – so that, before long, he could take them over.
The point is not that the Conservative drama is bound play out like this, but that Farage thinks it might. If that is his dream, it is a more attractive prospect than a Cameron victory, a referendum in 2017 and (as YouGov polls suggest) a likely vote to stay in the EU. Were that to happen, Farage and Ukip would be finished.
That’s the logic; but it is not just logic. Over the years I have discussed Ukip’s prospects with a number of the party’s leading lights. I have found a simmering tension between those whose main aim is an early vote on Europe, and those who are driven more by Ukip’s long-term prospects as a political force. Either Farage is stupid – and I don’t believe he is – or he sits firmly with those who would sacrifice a referendum for a shot at lasting glory.
I wouldn't trust what Peter Kellner says about UKIP and Farage with a bargepole. Kellner is staunch Labour through and through and will say anything to throw dust into the eyes of the Tories and UKIP to muddy the waters as much as possible.
Mike's prediction the other week that he will live out his day's under a Labour government seem more realistic to me now. Wonder if he had an inkling the Right was going to implode on itself?
It's been a slow burn implosion for a while. I even thought they seemed to have gotten a grip on things this year, even if I didn't think it enough to avoid a defeat in 2015 given the scale of the issues they faced, but like many things riven with internal weaknesses, despite a coat of polish eventually even slight pressures have caused the collapse of the whole structure.
OK, that's overdramatic, but win or lose in Clacton, how can the Tories combat the threat of UKIP and defeat Labour at the same time? What is it that will overcome that? Fear of Ed M is not pulling the voters back to them even if they see Ed M as inadequate. Labour are not imploding alongside them. The party is still deeply split on Europe and other issues, so Cameron cannot present a firm vision for a lot of important issues, weakening his campaigning focus and power.
In what way can the Tories make themselves strong enough to overcome even a weakened Labour at this point? I cannot see it.
I think the game's pretty much up for the Tories in 2015 now.
I agree they almost certainly can't win a majority. But they can still win the popular vote IMO.
@HurstLlama Dunno, when was the "age of consent" law passed? From wikipedia
The youngest monarch to marry was David II, who married Joan, daughter of Edward II when he was 4 years, 134 days old in 1328. The youngest female monarch at the time of her marriage was Mary II, who was 15 years, 188 days old when she married William III in 1677. The youngest queen consort was Isabella of Valois, who married Richard II when she was 6 years, 358 days old in 1396.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Mr. Gin, my congratulations for knowing what is going on inside a politicians head. May I ask how many times you have met Farage and how well you know him?
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Mr. Gin, my congratulations for knowing what is going on inside a politicians head. May I ask how many times you have met Farage and how well you know him?
Well Another_richard knows what is going on in Dave's head, and he's never met him.
1) Zac Goldsmith will defect to UKIP. He told The Sunday Times he was in tune with many of Ukip’s policies and if the party “entirely embraced the environmental agenda I might be tempted”.
2) Three more MPs will do a Carswell unless Cameron gets tougher with Brussels
3) Another Tory will defect but only after December when it will not be necessary to hold a by-election
4) Tory MPs are about to ignore Dave and form their own alliances/non-aggression pacts with UKIP
Even if there's no more defections to UKIP, it's starting to look like the Tories are going to descend into chaos at the election with huge numbers of Tory MPs saying they want out of Europe altogether. Reminiscent of the 1997 election with so many Tories saying that they were deadset against the Euro, going against the official party line. Even though most of the public also disagreed with the Euro, it still damaged the Tories because of the sense of "if they're going to be spending all their time fighting with eachother, how are they going to have to the time to run the country properly?"
Indeed. Who with half a brain would vote for this rabble?
Anybody interested in an effective government will have to vote Labour to get these rabid, suicidal right wingers out.
The weird thing is though, 1997 was a dead loss from September 1992, where-as 2015 was winnable. But one term in government was enough for the Tories to implode. Quite amazing really.
The fissures within the Tory body politic never healed. Getting into government only meant sticking plaster was applied. Europe is an open sore.
Would Zac Goldsmith have any chance of holding Richmond Park as a UKIP candidate? Seems unlikely at first glance.
It's unlikely at second glance too. Richmond Park is full of people who are doing very nicely indeed out of the status quo. Even if polling trends would suggest a three way marginal I really can't see it. You'd need a megashock to the political system and even then there'd be scores of seats UKIP would win before that one.
I have to agree with you there #blueberry. Richmond Park would be a hard one for UKIP to win even with a sitting candidate like Zac G.
UKIP are still running behind in organisation and votes in Greater London and although there will be improvement before the GE it won't be enough to make up from a low base.
With UKIP winning according to this poll a formality, looking at the second place, Labour have gone from 28% behind the Tories to just 7%. Now wouldn't it be a jolly chortle if Labour managed to close that 7% gap.
Give that man a peerage!....just so he can be Lord Lord.
Has this ever happened before? I know we've had Lord Igor Judge, who was Lord Chief Justice Judge, and I believe there is a Mr Justice Laws as well. But Lord Lord would be so perfect. It's a common name, it must have happened.
26% of Kippers think Cameron is the best party leader, 8% think Milliband is best and only 25% think Farage is the best leader (down from 55%)??? I mean, Cameron more popular than Farage with UKIP voters!?! There is something very fishy on the beach in Essex.
Unless these kippers all are wanting Carswell to unseat Farage as leader...
Popcorn time!
UKIP voters are the numbers in the brackets.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who needed that pointed out - I was genuinely confused there.
One reason why the US 5-star rank is General of the Army rather than Marshal or Field Marshal is because the US Chief of the Army at the time was George Marshall and he didn't wish to become Marshal Marshall.
Mike's prediction the other week that he will live out his day's under a Labour government seem more realistic to me now. Wonder if he had an inkling the Right was going to implode on itself?
It's been a slow burn implosion for a while. I even thought they seemed to have gotten a grip on things this year, even if I didn't think it enough to avoid a defeat in 2015 given the scale of the issues they faced, but like many things riven with internal weaknesses, despite a coat of polish eventually even slight pressures have caused the collapse of the whole structure.
OK, that's overdramatic, but win or lose in Clacton, how can the Tories combat the threat of UKIP and defeat Labour at the same time? What is it that will overcome that? Fear of Ed M is not pulling the voters back to them even if they see Ed M as inadequate. Labour are not imploding alongside them. The party is still deeply split on Europe and other issues, so Cameron cannot present a firm vision for a lot of important issues, weakening his campaigning focus and power.
In what way can the Tories make themselves strong enough to overcome even a weakened Labour at this point? I cannot see it.
I think the game's pretty much up for the Tories in 2015 now.
I agree they almost certainly can't win a majority. But they can still win the popular vote IMO.
Then how unfortunate for them that winning the popular vote means nothing on its own. It's difficult to even see them getting a plurality.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Mr. Gin, my congratulations for knowing what is going on inside a politicians head. May I ask how many times you have met Farage and how well you know him?
Are we not allowed to speculate about a politician's motivations and personal positions anymore? That'll eliminate a lot of web traffic.
Peter Kellner in the Sunday Times concludes with this
Let’s assume that Farage is behaving rationally. Logic suggests why he wants Labour to win. It is that his real ambition is to reshape Britain’s political Right. He wants the Tories to lose, tear themselves apart as the different wings blame each other for defeat, and then split over the best way forward. Farage would be waiting in the wings, offering to join forces with Conservative eurosceptics – so that, before long, he could take them over.
The point is not that the Conservative drama is bound play out like this, but that Farage thinks it might. If that is his dream, it is a more attractive prospect than a Cameron victory, a referendum in 2017 and (as YouGov polls suggest) a likely vote to stay in the EU. Were that to happen, Farage and Ukip would be finished.
That’s the logic; but it is not just logic. Over the years I have discussed Ukip’s prospects with a number of the party’s leading lights. I have found a simmering tension between those whose main aim is an early vote on Europe, and those who are driven more by Ukip’s long-term prospects as a political force. Either Farage is stupid – and I don’t believe he is – or he sits firmly with those who would sacrifice a referendum for a shot at lasting glory.
I wouldn't trust what Peter Kellner says about UKIP and Farage with a bargepole. Kellner is staunch Labour through and through and will say anything to throw dust into the eyes of the Tories and UKIP to muddy the waters as much as possible.
I suspect many in Labour still regard UKIP as purely (or at least predominantly) a problem for the Tories. They may be right for now but only because the Tories are in government. Were Labour to enter government, they would rapidly find the situation changing.
Give that man a peerage!....just so he can be Lord Lord.
Has this ever happened before? I know we've had Lord Igor Judge, who was Lord Chief Justice Judge, and I believe there is a Mr Justice Laws as well. But Lord Lord would be so perfect. It's a common name, it must have happened.
26% of Kippers think Cameron is the best party leader, 8% think Milliband is best and only 25% think Farage is the best leader (down from 55%)??? I mean, Cameron more popular than Farage with UKIP voters!?! There is something very fishy on the beach in Essex.
Unless these kippers all are wanting Carswell to unseat Farage as leader...
Popcorn time!
UKIP voters are the numbers in the brackets.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who needed that pointed out - I was genuinely confused there.
One reason why the US 5-star rank is General of the Army rather than Marshal or Field Marshal is because the US Chief of the Army at the time was George Marshall and he didn't wish to become Marshal Marshall.
Rather selfish of him (General of the Army also seems like a poor alternative, given there are many Generals in the Army) - they didn't change the name of the US Marshals despite the possibility many agents named Marshall I'll bet.
Peter Kellner in the Sunday Times concludes with this
Let’s assume that Farage is behaving rationally. Logic suggests why he wants Labour to win. It is that his real ambition is to reshape Britain’s political Right. He wants the Tories to lose, tear themselves apart as the different wings blame each other for defeat, and then split over the best way forward. Farage would be waiting in the wings, offering to join forces with Conservative eurosceptics – so that, before long, he could take them over.
The point is not that the Conservative drama is bound play out like this, but that Farage thinks it might. If that is his dream, it is a more attractive prospect than a Cameron victory, a referendum in 2017 and (as YouGov polls suggest) a likely vote to stay in the EU. Were that to happen, Farage and Ukip would be finished.
That’s the logic; but it is not just logic. Over the years I have discussed Ukip’s prospects with a number of the party’s leading lights. I have found a simmering tension between those whose main aim is an early vote on Europe, and those who are driven more by Ukip’s long-term prospects as a political force. Either Farage is stupid – and I don’t believe he is – or he sits firmly with those who would sacrifice a referendum for a shot at lasting glory.
I wouldn't trust what Peter Kellner says about UKIP and Farage with a bargepole. Kellner is staunch Labour through and through and will say anything to throw dust into the eyes of the Tories and UKIP to muddy the waters as much as possible.
I suspect many in Labour still regard UKIP as purely (or at least predominantly) a problem for the Tories. They may be right for now but only because the Tories are in government. Were Labour to enter government, they would rapidly find the situation changing.
I'm not convinced. In the end, Labour voters, vote Labour. It's what they do. As we saw in 2010.
@GeoffM What was the average age of the brides for his peers? Child brides were pretty common here at one time?
Most people died around 40 after all.
This is a common myth. Average life expectancy was indeed roughly in the 30's, but this was because of fearsome infant mortality with some estimates putting near 50% rates on children dying before their fifth birthday. The average life expectancy for an teenage child (excepting death by childhood or violence, both quite common in historic times) would be to live to sixty odd years.
There were plenty of older people, both male and female, in Europe at that time.
@HurstLlama Dunno, when was the "age of consent" law passed? From wikipedia
The youngest monarch to marry was David II, who married Joan, daughter of Edward II when he was 4 years, 134 days old in 1328. The youngest female monarch at the time of her marriage was Mary II, who was 15 years, 188 days old when she married William III in 1677. The youngest queen consort was Isabella of Valois, who married Richard II when she was 6 years, 358 days old in 1396.
So actually you haven't got a bleedin' clue. I could give you chapter and verse on medieval marriage customs but since you don't like it when I quote "book learning", I'll just refer you to Mr. Charles's response to you up thread.
Before I go, can I suggest you might like to take a look at the figures for handicapped children correlated with first cousin marriages in the UK today. The BBC did a programme on it not so long back.
Give that man a peerage!....just so he can be Lord Lord.
Has this ever happened before? I know we've had Lord Igor Judge, who was Lord Chief Justice Judge, and I believe there is a Mr Justice Laws as well. But Lord Lord would be so perfect. It's a common name, it must have happened.
26% of Kippers think Cameron is the best party leader, 8% think Milliband is best and only 25% think Farage is the best leader (down from 55%)??? I mean, Cameron more popular than Farage with UKIP voters!?! There is something very fishy on the beach in Essex.
Unless these kippers all are wanting Carswell to unseat Farage as leader...
Popcorn time!
UKIP voters are the numbers in the brackets.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who needed that pointed out - I was genuinely confused there.
One reason why the US 5-star rank is General of the Army rather than Marshal or Field Marshal is because the US Chief of the Army at the time was George Marshall and he didn't wish to become Marshal Marshall.
It's still hard to beat Jaime, Cardinal Sin - catholic archbishop of the Philipines.
Also there's the fictional Major Major from Catch 22
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Mr. Gin, my congratulations for knowing what is going on inside a politicians head. May I ask how many times you have met Farage and how well you know him?
Gin is repeating and copying what Kelner has been saying about Farage and UKIP.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Mr. Gin, my congratulations for knowing what is going on inside a politicians head. May I ask how many times you have met Farage and how well you know him?
Farage has spoken often of destroying the Tory Party and realigning the Right, citing Canada 1993 as his example of what could happen.
I don't think I need to meet Farage to know his modus operandi. He's said it often enough...
With UKIP winning according to this poll a formality, looking at the second place, Labour have gone from 28% behind the Tories to just 7%. Now wouldn't it be a jolly chortle if Labour managed to close that 7% gap.
It would be worth putting a small bet on Labour coming second IMO, but I doubt the bookies will offer that option.
Was there child sex grooming going on before these revelations? If so, who was doing it before the Muslims cornered the market?
I pointed out the other day that these gangs were using well established ways that pimps use all over the world to recruit vulnerable young girls into prostitution.
The difference is that the authorities (police and social workers in particular) seem to not be interested in stopping these particular gangs, according to Prof Jay's report, for reasons that are potentially explosive.
The trouble is a lot of statistics about sex work are entirely fictional. The "start as 12-year-olds" figure comes from a study that only looked at underage sex-workers in the first place, and actually asked about their first sexual contact, including kissing and heavy petting. It's a bit like the "95 percent want to leave," statistic, that came from a study that recruited from charities where sex-workers go to leave prostitution in the first place. The bias was so heavy it's a wonder they couldn't hit 100 percent.
Average age of 12, quoted in that article, is practically mathematically impossible.
Nothing will change under a Labour government. Nothing at all. Except we will slide deeper into debt, immigration will continue, and the people will get angrier.
I for one will be watching the reaction of the anti-austerity brigade with interest, given their distaste for the actions of this government that will be mirrored in many ways under Miliband. I predict I will find much to be amused by.
With UKIP winning according to this poll a formality, looking at the second place, Labour have gone from 28% behind the Tories to just 7%. Now wouldn't it be a jolly chortle if Labour managed to close that 7% gap.
It would be worth putting a small bet on Labour coming second IMO, but I doubt the bookies will offer that option.
If it did happen and it would be a humungous if, the Tory Party would implode.
This seems quite plausible, indeed I would say quite likely. Monomania dissolving into megalomania. As a lifelong Tory voter I take a dim view of someone wanting to destroy the Tory party and facilitating a Labour victory as a means to this end. Clearly the Left in British politics has twice the brainpower of the Right.
Well, the "left" did it all in the early 80's didn't they? I bet in 1981 Roy and Shirl had similar views to Farage now.
Split the right. Destroy the Labour party. There will be a "realignment" that will bring the SDP to power.
Except it didn't happen. All that happened is that Maggie kept winning landslides and the Tories had 18 years of uninterrupted government because the left wing vote was divided.
I have no doubt the same will probably happen again, this time to the Right...
Have you ever considered that few voters think in terms of left and right and split this and realign that? Maybe quite a lot of voters might be attracted to a party that didn't think in those terms either. Perhaps a party that actually and simply listened to what ordinary people were worried about might actually gain considerable traction.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Is he? From what I can see, he's looking to take any opportunity that comes. All three main Westminster parties have some part of their support under attack from UKIP. It would be a foolish strategy to simply try to replace another party, particularly one targeted in advance.
Give that man a peerage!....just so he can be Lord Lord.
Has this ever happened before? I know we've had Lord Igor Judge, who was Lord Chief Justice Judge, and I believe there is a Mr Justice Laws as well. But Lord Lord would be so perfect. It's a common name, it must have happened.
26% of Kippers think Cameron is the best party leader, 8% think Milliband is best and only 25% think Farage is the best leader (down from 55%)??? I mean, Cameron more popular than Farage with UKIP voters!?! There is something very fishy on the beach in Essex.
Unless these kippers all are wanting Carswell to unseat Farage as leader...
Popcorn time!
UKIP voters are the numbers in the brackets.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who needed that pointed out - I was genuinely confused there.
One reason why the US 5-star rank is General of the Army rather than Marshal or Field Marshal is because the US Chief of the Army at the time was George Marshall and he didn't wish to become Marshal Marshall.
It's still hard to beat Jaime, Cardinal Sin - catholic archbishop of the Philipines.
Also there's the fictional Major Major from Catch 22
Didn't Cardinal Sin welcome guests at the door with "Welcome to the House of Sin"?
With UKIP winning according to this poll a formality, looking at the second place, Labour have gone from 28% behind the Tories to just 7%. Now wouldn't it be a jolly chortle if Labour managed to close that 7% gap.
It would be worth putting a small bet on Labour coming second IMO, but I doubt the bookies will offer that option.
Why not?
I bet Shadsy's working on it right now. After all, they're not going to take much money on the winner market now.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Mr. Gin, my congratulations for knowing what is going on inside a politicians head. May I ask how many times you have met Farage and how well you know him?
Farage has spoken often of destroying the Tory Party and realigning the Right, citing Canada 1993 as his example of what could happen.
I don't think I need to meet Farage to know his modus operandi. He's said it often enough...
Fair go, Mr Gin. You have some basis for your judgement. Perhaps not a judgement I would share even on the same evidence, but at least you are not one of these idiot mind readers.
Give that man a peerage!....just so he can be Lord Lord.
Has this ever happened before? I know we've had Lord Igor Judge, who was Lord Chief Justice Judge, and I believe there is a Mr Justice Laws as well. But Lord Lord would be so perfect. It's a common name, it must have happened.
26% of Kippers think Cameron is the best party leader, 8% think Milliband is best and only 25% think Farage is the best leader (down from 55%)??? I mean, Cameron more popular than Farage with UKIP voters!?! There is something very fishy on the beach in Essex.
Unless these kippers all are wanting Carswell to unseat Farage as leader...
Popcorn time!
UKIP voters are the numbers in the brackets.
I'm glad I wasn't the only one who needed that pointed out - I was genuinely confused there.
One reason why the US 5-star rank is General of the Army rather than Marshal or Field Marshal is because the US Chief of the Army at the time was George Marshall and he didn't wish to become Marshal Marshall.
It's still hard to beat Jaime, Cardinal Sin - catholic archbishop of the Philipines.
Also there's the fictional Major Major from Catch 22
Didn't Cardinal Sin welcome guests at the door with "Welcome to the House of Sin"?
If he didn't, then he squandered a delicious opportunity, more's the shame.
Night all. Perhaps things will look better for the Tories in the morning, but I suspect it will be several thousand before it's a morning when they will be looking at the prospect of winning again (hey, 2020 is still possible at least).
@GeoffM What was the average age of the brides for his peers? Child brides were pretty common here at one time?
Most people died around 40 after all.
This is a common myth. Average life expectancy was indeed roughly in the 30's, but this was because of fearsome infant mortality with some estimates putting near 50% rates on children dying before their fifth birthday. The average life expectancy for an teenage child (excepting death by childhood or violence, both quite common in historic times) would be to live to sixty odd years.
There were plenty of older people, both male and female, in Europe at that time.
Yes, quite a seriously stupid remark, by Surbiton, which gives a context for everything else he says (i.e. we can conclude he's rather dim).
If you made it to adulthood you had a very decent chance of making it to 60 or even 65.
"Medieval Britain[17][18] 30 At age 21, life expectancy was an additional 43 years (total age 64).[19] "
Mike's prediction the other week that he will live out his day's under a Labour government seem more realistic to me now. Wonder if he had an inkling the Right was going to implode on itself?
It's been a slow burn implosion for a while. I even thought they seemed to have gotten a grip on things this year, even if I didn't think it enough to avoid a defeat in 2015 given the scale of the issues they faced, but like many things riven with internal weaknesses, despite a coat of polish eventually even slight pressures have caused the collapse of the whole structure.
OK, that's overdramatic, but win or lose in Clacton, how can the Tories combat the threat of UKIP and defeat Labour at the same time? What is it that will overcome that? Fear of Ed M is not pulling the voters back to them even if they see Ed M as inadequate. Labour are not imploding alongside them. The party is still deeply split on Europe and other issues, so Cameron cannot present a firm vision for a lot of important issues, weakening his campaigning focus and power.
In what way can the Tories make themselves strong enough to overcome even a weakened Labour at this point? I cannot see it.
Labour has done vastly more to lock the UK into the EU's rules than any other party and they will benefit from a Tory-led government not having the power to rectify things. As long as immigration (and EU freedom of movement) is not sorted the Right will be split and Labour will gain power. Eventually the change in demographics caused by immigration will give Labour permanent power in government. Labour used to say that they valued diversity but they really wanted the votes.
Was there child sex grooming going on before these revelations? If so, who was doing it before the Muslims cornered the market?
I pointed out the other day that these gangs were using well established ways that pimps use all over the world to recruit vulnerable young girls into prostitution.
The difference is that the authorities (police and social workers in particular) seem to not be interested in stopping these particular gangs, according to Prof Jay's report, for reasons that are potentially explosive.
The trouble is a lot of statistics about sex work are entirely fictional. The "start as 12-year-olds" figure comes from a study that only looked at underage sex-workers in the first place, and actually asked about their first sexual contact, including kissing and heavy petting. It's a bit like the "95 percent want to leave," statistic, that came from a study that recruited from charities where sex-workers go to leave prostitution in the first place. The bias was so heavy it's a wonder they couldn't hit 100 percent.
Average age of 12, quoted in that article, is practically mathematically impossible.
My source deals with USA prostitutes, but surveys of UK prostitutes and indeed of prostitutes in other parts of the world such as Thailand show that most were recruited underage.
I have met a few prostitutes in my time (through my profession rather than theirs!) and most were "on the game" before their 16th birthday, though often from such chaotic backgrounds that they did not appreciate that they were being pimped by their "boyfriends" at that age.
Clearly bad Clacton poll for the Tories, but hardly a shock given Carswell was the incumbent MP, and all the publicity of last week. The fact that Cameron is still seen as best party leader is a small crumb of comfort, as is Labour in a poor third despite holding much of the seat from 1997-2005. The Tories should still hold an open primary to get the best candidate, after all after this poll the only way is up
With all the terrorists, perverts, and common criminals running around, it is truly pathetic that the police, both domestic and international are being employed to torment further, a family which is bereft with grief. A five year old boy, dying of an incurable brain tumour, has been taken from the hospital, which admits his condition is incurable, to be in the heart of a loving family. Here we have bureaucracy at its vilest: self-righteous, ‘we know what is best’ medical and social workers anxious to claw this dying child back into the hospital. Hospitals can be frightening places at the best of times, and with Jimmy Savilles and other monsters stalking the wards, any parent must be nervous to leave their offspring at the tender mercies of Britain’s child care. Why are valuable manpower and financial resources being wasted on a family who want to care for their own? Why are a decent family being labelled as religious maniacs by a society that mocks Christianity, Judaism and any other civilised ethos? Leave this family alone to love, care and later mourn for their beloved son. Use the resources available to go after the child abusers, and all the other criminals which haunt our land.
"Lessons will be learned", you can hear the cry down the centuries.
" By 1846 the hospital had moved to new purpose-built premises at 41 Rottenrow Lane. Women from Duke Street Prison were sent there, still manacled together as they were treated. Child victims of abuse and incest were being discovered in huge numbers, but society found this impossible to admit. One Lock doctor, Mr Alexander Paterson, is on record in 1882 as saying a seven-year-old girl ''had given the illness to herself''. There were certainly syphilitic babies born in The Lock, but many others, like Annie Ellen and Elisabeth,....."
SeanT Hollande has not actually cut taxes overall for the rich, the 75% tax he imposed on businesses paying workers more than 1 million euros remains, he has simply cut some corporate taxes alongside
This seems quite plausible, indeed I would say quite likely. Monomania dissolving into megalomania. As a lifelong Tory voter I take a dim view of someone wanting to destroy the Tory party and facilitating a Labour victory as a means to this end. Clearly the Left in British politics has twice the brainpower of the Right.
Well, the "left" did it all in the early 80's didn't they? I bet in 1981 Roy and Shirl had similar views to Farage now.
Split the right. Destroy the Labour party. There will be a "realignment" that will bring the SDP to power.
Except it didn't happen. All that happened is that Maggie kept winning landslides and the Tories had 18 years of uninterrupted government because the left wing vote was divided.
I have no doubt the same will probably happen again, this time to the Right...
Have you ever considered that few voters think in terms of left and right and split this and realign that? Maybe quite a lot of voters might be attracted to a party that didn't think in those terms either. Perhaps a party that actually and simply listened to what ordinary people were worried about might actually gain considerable traction.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Is he? From what I can see, he's looking to take any opportunity that comes. All three main Westminster parties have some part of their support under attack from UKIP. It would be a foolish strategy to simply try to replace another party, particularly one targeted in advance.
Well, foolish or not, that's his stated aim.
He wants the the Conservatives destroyed, as they were in Canada in 1993, followed by a "realignment" such as we've seen in Canada between Conservative and "Reform".
I've seen him interviewed several times where he's said this is his "end game". Surprised it's so controversial on here?
Turnout at the general election in Clacton was 64.2%, quite a low figure. I don't think it's totally impossible it might be slightly higher in the by-election, which would be an extremely unusual occurrence. I'd put a small bet on it happening if available.
Was there child sex grooming going on before these revelations? If so, who was doing it before the Muslims cornered the market?
I pointed out the other day that these gangs were using well established ways that pimps use all over the world to recruit vulnerable young girls into prostitution.
The difference is that the authorities (police and social workers in particular) seem to not be interested in stopping these particular gangs, according to Prof Jay's report, for reasons that are potentially explosive.
The trouble is a lot of statistics about sex work are entirely fictional. The "start as 12-year-olds" figure comes from a study that only looked at underage sex-workers in the first place, and actually asked about their first sexual contact, including kissing and heavy petting. It's a bit like the "95 percent want to leave," statistic, that came from a study that recruited from charities where sex-workers go to leave prostitution in the first place. The bias was so heavy it's a wonder they couldn't hit 100 percent.
Average age of 12, quoted in that article, is practically mathematically impossible.
My source deals with USA prostitutes, but surveys of UK prostitutes and indeed of prostitutes in other parts of the world such as Thailand show that most were recruited underage.
I have met a few prostitutes in my time (through my profession rather than theirs!) and most were "on the game" before their 16th birthday, though often from such chaotic backgrounds that they did not appreciate that they were being pimped by their "boyfriends" at that age.
It's mathematically impossible whatever continent they're on.
Peter Kellner in the Sunday Times concludes with this
Let’s assume that Farage is behaving rationally. Logic suggests why he wants Labour to win. It is that his real ambition is to reshape Britain’s political Right. He wants the Tories to lose, tear themselves apart as the different wings blame each other for defeat, and then split over the best way forward. Farage would be waiting in the wings, offering to join forces with Conservative eurosceptics – so that, before long, he could take them over.
The point is not that the Conservative drama is bound play out like this, but that Farage thinks it might. If that is his dream, it is a more attractive prospect than a Cameron victory, a referendum in 2017 and (as YouGov polls suggest) a likely vote to stay in the EU. Were that to happen, Farage and Ukip would be finished.
That’s the logic; but it is not just logic. Over the years I have discussed Ukip’s prospects with a number of the party’s leading lights. I have found a simmering tension between those whose main aim is an early vote on Europe, and those who are driven more by Ukip’s long-term prospects as a political force. Either Farage is stupid – and I don’t believe he is – or he sits firmly with those who would sacrifice a referendum for a shot at lasting glory.
I wouldn't trust what Peter Kellner says about UKIP and Farage with a bargepole. Kellner is staunch Labour through and through and will say anything to throw dust into the eyes of the Tories and UKIP to muddy the waters as much as possible.
I suspect many in Labour still regard UKIP as purely (or at least predominantly) a problem for the Tories. They may be right for now but only because the Tories are in government. Were Labour to enter government, they would rapidly find the situation changing.
I'm not convinced. In the end, Labour voters, vote Labour. It's what they do. As we saw in 2010.
No they didn't. Labour's vote in 2010 was very nearly its lowest since the 1930s (only just surpassed by their 1983 effort). They distributed it quite well but that's not the point (in fact, that efficient distribution is a weakness should another party become genuinely attractive to voters in their core areas).
The fissures within the Tory body politic never healed. Getting into government only meant sticking plaster was applied. Europe is an open sore.
Could you imagine what would happen in the unlikely event the Tories won the 2015 election with a very small majority or just short of a majority. Even if Cameron managed to get a bill passed for a referendum, he would be faced with demands from Eurosceptics about the reforms they want to see. Cameron would then try to negotiate with other EU leaders, most of whom won't be that interested in UK demands and may have their own EU reforms they want to see. The EU will try to avoid a new treaty because of the fact that many countries have to hold referendums on EU membership, so they would have to find a way that did not involve a new treary.
This would take along time, with all the other more important things going on in the world, so unlikely Cameron would be able to present significant EU reforms affecting the UK by Autumn 2017. Meanwhile UKIP and some Tories would be demanding an in/out referendum, as Cameron promised. Any government led by Cameron would be in a complete mess and would start to lose the confidence of the public and parliament. There is then the possibility that Cameron would face a leadership contest and be replaced by Boris.
I am not sure the country can afford to elect a government that would be so unstable, fighting about Europe, which has been their achilles for the last 40 years or more.
I imagine the Roma will vote Labour. And good for them, I'd do the same in their situation: vote for the party that likes mass immigration, and handing out benefits.
But the whites will increasingly vote right. For a glimpse of the future, look to France, where Marine Le Pen - way to the right of Farage - is a serious candidate for the presidency.
Britain is about five years behind France, politically, and we have even more immigration.
UK Lefties should be thankful that our rising hard right party is UKIP, who are relatively benign.
We have more immigration but we have a smaller Muslim population: 5% vs 10% I believe. That mainly accounts for the difference.
Peter Kellner in the Sunday Times concludes with this
Let’s assume that Farage is behaving rationally. Logic suggests why he wants Labour to win. It is that his real ambition is to reshape Britain’s political Right. He wants the Tories to lose, tear themselves apart as the different wings blame each other for defeat, and then split over the best way forward. Farage would be waiting in the wings, offering to join forces with Conservative eurosceptics – so that, before long, he could take them over.
The point is not that the Conservative drama is bound play out like this, but that Farage thinks it might. If that is his dream, it is a more attractive prospect than a Cameron victory, a referendum in 2017 and (as YouGov polls suggest) a likely vote to stay in the EU. Were that to happen, Farage and Ukip would be finished.
That’s the logic; but it is not just logic. Over the years I have discussed Ukip’s prospects with a number of the party’s leading lights. I have found a simmering tension between those whose main aim is an early vote on Europe, and those who are driven more by Ukip’s long-term prospects as a political force. Either Farage is stupid – and I don’t believe he is – or he sits firmly with those who would sacrifice a referendum for a shot at lasting glory.
I wouldn't trust what Peter Kellner says about UKIP and Farage with a bargepole. Kellner is staunch Labour through and through and will say anything to throw dust into the eyes of the Tories and UKIP to muddy the waters as much as possible.
I suspect many in Labour still regard UKIP as purely (or at least predominantly) a problem for the Tories. They may be right for now but only because the Tories are in government. Were Labour to enter government, they would rapidly find the situation changing.
I'm not convinced. In the end, Labour voters, vote Labour. It's what they do. As we saw in 2010.
Well that's clearly not the case because almost all of the seats where UKIP are now challenging were Labour seats under Tony Blair whether it be South Thanet, Great Yarmouth, Harwich or Great Grimsby. These are places where for one reason or another the electorate have become disillusioned and feel that both Tories and Labour no longer represent them.
If under a Miliband Government other Labour areas like say Rotherham were to come to the same conclusion they might jump straight to UKIP without bothering with the Tories particularly if there is already a small but vocal UKIP representation in Westminster which has a plausible message..
With all the terrorists, perverts, and common criminals running around, it is truly pathetic that the police, both domestic and international are being employed to torment further, a family which is bereft with grief. A five year old boy, dying of an incurable brain tumour, has been taken from the hospital, which admits his condition is incurable, to be in the heart of a loving family. Here we have bureaucracy at its vilest: self-righteous, ‘we know what is best’ medical and social workers anxious to claw this dying child back into the hospital. Hospitals can be frightening places at the best of times, and with Jimmy Savilles and other monsters stalking the wards, any parent must be nervous to leave their offspring at the tender mercies of Britain’s child care. Why are valuable manpower and financial resources being wasted on a family who want to care for their own? Why are a decent family being labelled as religious maniacs by a society that mocks Christianity, Judaism and any other civilised ethos? Leave this family alone to love, care and later mourn for their beloved son. Use the resources available to go after the child abusers, and all the other criminals which haunt our land.
Great post, I can see it forming the basis of a SeanT blog.
I knew about Aisha, the child that Muhammad had sex with, but I didn't know about this Rayhana woman before. The Prophet of Islam actually had a "maiden slave".
How on Earth does anyone with a conscience admire this historical figure, let alone exalt him as the greatest man ever?
Hucks1987 A referendum on the EU in 2017 tabled in parliament by a new Tory or Tory led government would leave the electorate to decide one way or another. Cameron, if he can get any form of reforms or concessions for the UK, would then probably campaign to stay in, many of his party and UKIP will campaign for an out, but one way or another we need a referendum to settle the matter, just as we need to settle the matter of Scotland next month
Following the Rotherham revelations, is it time to revisit the recruitment policies of Metropolitan police, who are simultaneously limiting recruits from the home counties (in order to increase diversity), while dropping the ban on criminal records (necessary to recruit sufficient numbers)?
This seems quite plausible, indeed I would say quite likely. Monomania dissolving into megalomania. As a lifelong Tory voter I take a dim view of someone wanting to destroy the Tory party and facilitating a Labour victory as a means to this end. Clearly the Left in British politics has twice the brainpower of the Right.
Well, the "left" did it all in the early 80's didn't they? I bet in 1981 Roy and Shirl had similar views to Farage now.
Split the right. Destroy the Labour party. There will be a "realignment" that will bring the SDP to power.
Except it didn't happen. All that happened is that Maggie kept winning landslides and the Tories had 18 years of uninterrupted government because the left wing vote was divided.
I have no doubt the same will probably happen again, this time to the Right...
Have you ever considered that few voters think in terms of left and right and split this and realign that? Maybe quite a lot of voters might be attracted to a party that didn't think in those terms either. Perhaps a party that actually and simply listened to what ordinary people were worried about might actually gain considerable traction.
Voters may not do, but politicians do. Farage is in the process of calculating that destroying the Tory Party will eventually lead him to power, just as Roy and Shirl thought destroying the Labour Party would lead them to power.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Is he? From what I can see, he's looking to take any opportunity that comes. All three main Westminster parties have some part of their support under attack from UKIP. It would be a foolish strategy to simply try to replace another party, particularly one targeted in advance.
Well, foolish or not, that's his stated aim.
He wants the the Conservatives destroyed, as they were in Canada in 1993, followed by a "realignment" such as we've seen in Canada between Conservative and "Reform".
I've seen him interviewed several times where he's said this is his "end game". Surprised it's so controversial on here?
Mind, at least he's honest about it...
That doesn't tie in with the developing UKIP policy platform, which could be loosely described as populist-left.
With all the terrorists, perverts, and common criminals running around, it is truly pathetic that the police, both domestic and international are being employed to torment further, a family which is bereft with grief. A five year old boy, dying of an incurable brain tumour, has been taken from the hospital, which admits his condition is incurable, to be in the heart of a loving family. Here we have bureaucracy at its vilest: self-righteous, ‘we know what is best’ medical and social workers anxious to claw this dying child back into the hospital. Hospitals can be frightening places at the best of times, and with Jimmy Savilles and other monsters stalking the wards, any parent must be nervous to leave their offspring at the tender mercies of Britain’s child care. Why are valuable manpower and financial resources being wasted on a family who want to care for their own? Why are a decent family being labelled as religious maniacs by a society that mocks Christianity, Judaism and any other civilised ethos? Leave this family alone to love, care and later mourn for their beloved son. Use the resources available to go after the child abusers, and all the other criminals which haunt our land.
Given the child is apparently terminally ill, it's surely up to the Parents whether or not they want him to receive treatment? If they don't want him to receive treatment, then it's surely up to them where and how he passes?
Maybe Spain held treasured memories for the boy and his family and they wanted him to re-live one last moment of beauty and love and peace, without the cold, mechanical interruption of tubes and machines, before he passed away? If so, what is that to do with anybody else?
Now, if his condition is treatable/curable its an entirely different matter, but as has currently been presented, I hope the authorities are as lenient to the parents as possible.
Clacton By-Election Poll Results Survation Ltd Dear All,
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Mike's prediction the other week that he will live out his day's under a Labour government seem more realistic to me now. Wonder if he had an inkling the Right was going to implode on itself?
It's been a slow burn implosion for a while. I even thought they seemed to have gotten a grip on things this year, even if I didn't think it enough to avoid a defeat in 2015 given the scale of the issues they faced, but like many things riven with internal weaknesses, despite a coat of polish eventually even slight pressures have caused the collapse of the whole structure.
OK, that's overdramatic, but win or lose in Clacton, how can the Tories combat the threat of UKIP and defeat Labour at the same time? What is it that will overcome that? Fear of Ed M is not pulling the voters back to them even if they see Ed M as inadequate. Labour are not imploding alongside them. The party is still deeply split on Europe and other issues, so Cameron cannot present a firm vision for a lot of important issues, weakening his campaigning focus and power.
In what way can the Tories make themselves strong enough to overcome even a weakened Labour at this point? I cannot see it.
Labour has done vastly more to lock the UK into the EU's rules than any other party and they will benefit from a Tory-led government not having the power to rectify things. As long as immigration (and EU freedom of movement) is not sorted the Right will be split and Labour will gain power. Eventually the change in demographics caused by immigration will give Labour permanent power in government. Labour used to say that they valued diversity but they really wanted the votes.
I'm all for a bit of Labour-bashing but this is statistical nonsense. For Labour to have permanent power in government thanks to immigration, they would need to import 10-15 million new adults at the very least, and then ensure ALL of them voted Labour, all the time.
Long before then, we would see civil and racial war on our streets. We are already close to a straining point. And of course once immigrants settle they see NEW immigrants as a threat (correctly) to their economic position, and competition for already low wages, and they begin to vote for restrictions.
At some point fairly soon mass immigration into the UK will either stop because our welfare state collapses under the weight of contradictions, or the people will simply vote in a very rightwing government to do the stopping. Both are decidedly sup-optimal for Labour.
Clacton By-Election Poll Results Survation Ltd Dear All,
The full tables and methodology for our Clacton by-election poll can be downloaded here:
Please email if you have any issues accessing the data.
Survation is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules. Full tables are available here.
Keep up to date with all of Survation’s research and analysis on our blog. Follow us on twitter: @survation Find out more about the services Survation provide by following this link. For press enquiries, please call 0203 142 7642 or email enquiry@survation.com
On a previous thread, I gave my best guess for geographical distribution of yes/no in Scotland and asked if anybody had anything better. CarlottaVance (who linked me to http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Scottish-DM-2nd-Debate-Tables.pdf ) and MalcolmMG (who pointed out that Shetland, Orkney and the Central Belt leant "Yes") both made useful responses. Thank you to both, and to anybody else who replies I missed.
I think there's one in the Sunday Times, but it's not clear, they've done a piece on Sir Paul McCartney's intervention, and they've inserted this snippet
"It comes as polling suggests the “yes” campaign led by Scottish National party leader Alex Salmond is six points from victory, and support has risen a little of late, to 44%."
Now if it is a panelbase poll, then actually yes are down 2% if it is after DKs are excluded or up 2% if it before DKs.
I knew about Aisha, the child that Muhammad had sex with, but I didn't know about this Rayhana woman before. The Prophet of Islam actually had a "maiden slave".
How on Earth does anyone with a conscience admire this historical figure, let alone exalt him as the greatest man ever?
The story of the Banu Qurayza does explain why Israelis fear Islamists who seek a revival of the early days of Islam.
Rayhana seems to have been quite feisty, in that in most accounts she seems to have refused to marry Mohammad, or to convert to Islam or wear the Hijab, but rather preferred to remain a slave, at least for some years. She seems to have died quite young.
Mohammad had a large number of wives and concubines, but curiously few children recorded, which seems to be quite significant in that the Sunni/Shia split was in part a dispute over who should inherit the caliphate, as there was no obvious heir.
On topic, a dreadful poll for all the main Westminster parties but particularly the Tories as the current holders. Barely better for Labour, who held the previous Harwich constituency from 1997 to 2005 and only just lost it then, when they still polled over 40%.
If this poll is even remotely close, Clacton is likely to become as defining an election in the breakdown of the three-party system as Torrington and Orpington were for the two-party one.
With the Liberals on 2 percent, three party politics is here to stay.
With all the terrorists, perverts, and common criminals running around, it is truly pathetic that the police, both domestic and international are being employed to torment further, a family which is bereft with grief. A five year old boy, dying of an incurable brain tumour, has been taken from the hospital, which admits his condition is incurable, to be in the heart of a loving family. Here we have bureaucracy at its vilest: self-righteous, ‘we know what is best’ medical and social workers anxious to claw this dying child back into the hospital. Hospitals can be frightening places at the best of times, and with Jimmy Savilles and other monsters stalking the wards, any parent must be nervous to leave their offspring at the tender mercies of Britain’s child care. Why are valuable manpower and financial resources being wasted on a family who want to care for their own? Why are a decent family being labelled as religious maniacs by a society that mocks Christianity, Judaism and any other civilised ethos? Leave this family alone to love, care and later mourn for their beloved son. Use the resources available to go after the child abusers, and all the other criminals which haunt our land.
Given the child is apparently terminally ill, it's surely up to the Parents whether or not they want him to receive treatment? If they don't want him to receive treatment, then it's surely up to them where and how he passes?
Maybe Spain held treasured memories for the boy and his family and they wanted him to re-live one last moment of beauty and love and peace, without the cold, mechanical interruption of tubes and machines, before he passed away? If so, what is that to do with anybody else?
Now, if his condition is treatable/curable its an entirely different matter, but as has currently been presented, I hope the authorities are as lenient to the parents as possible.
There are a number of child hospices in Britain, so if the child was truly terminal then that would be an option.
There may well be more to this than we can be told, as the hospital cannot breach confidentiality as to the cause of their concern.
TSE I think The Sunday Times use yougov, so that would mean No 56 Yes 44, a point or 2 above the last yougov poll, but still in their usual range and dead on the last Independent poll of polls last week which was exactly 56 No 44 Yes. If that is confirmed I think the final result will look something like that barring unforeseen events, if Dave can then go to conference having saved the union he can then focus on Kippers with some red meat on Europe and Immigration to be announced over the course of the week
TSE I think The Sunday Times use yougov, so that would mean No 56 Yes 44, a point or 2 above the last yougov poll, but still in their usual range and dead on the last Independent poll of polls last week which was exactly 56 No 44 Yes. If that is confirmed I think the final result will look something like that barring unforeseen events, if Dave can then go to conference having saved the union he can then focus on Kippers with some red meat on Europe and Immigration to be announced over the course of the week
With all the terrorists, perverts, and common criminals running around, it is truly pathetic that the police, both domestic and international are being employed to torment further, a family which is bereft with grief. A five year old boy, dying of an incurable brain tumour, has been taken from the hospital, which admits his condition is incurable, to be in the heart of a loving family. Here we have bureaucracy at its vilest: self-righteous, ‘we know what is best’ medical and social workers anxious to claw this dying child back into the hospital. Hospitals can be frightening places at the best of times, and with Jimmy Savilles and other monsters stalking the wards, any parent must be nervous to leave their offspring at the tender mercies of Britain’s child care. Why are valuable manpower and financial resources being wasted on a family who want to care for their own? Why are a decent family being labelled as religious maniacs by a society that mocks Christianity, Judaism and any other civilised ethos? Leave this family alone to love, care and later mourn for their beloved son. Use the resources available to go after the child abusers, and all the other criminals which haunt our land.
Given the child is apparently terminally ill, it's surely up to the Parents whether or not they want him to receive treatment? If they don't want him to receive treatment, then it's surely up to them where and how he passes?
Maybe Spain held treasured memories for the boy and his family and they wanted him to re-live one last moment of beauty and love and peace, without the cold, mechanical interruption of tubes and machines, before he passed away? If so, what is that to do with anybody else?
Now, if his condition is treatable/curable its an entirely different matter, but as has currently been presented, I hope the authorities are as lenient to the parents as possible.
Strongly agree with all of that. But it shouldn't be down to the "authorities" to be "lenient" or otherwise. The State should not be involved in this private family matter.
The fact that not only are they involved but they have hounded an innocent family across an entire continent on a politically correct whim should scare us all.
Even worse that it is wrapped inside a rather fascist "we know best and although we can't think of a law you've broken yet we'll make something up if we want to" attitude. Which the police aren't even making any effort to disguise.
And following my earlier post the Hampshire head plod has indeed gone on tv to confirm that half of his staff are currently rummaging through cupboards for their buckets, spades and KissMeQuick hats.
Good for them. The beaches are fantastic this time of year. I might even get to meet some of them "on duty". Crime-solving is more pleasant here than it is in Rotherham, it seems!
Comments
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayhana_bint_Zayd
You can see where ISIS get their ideas:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/30/world/meast/isis-iraq-syria/
It is difficult to move on from this when a central plank of the religion is that Mohammad was the perfect man, and that his actions were directly endorsed by the dictated word of god.
All religions are not the same!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1552482/Missing-girls-body-put-into-kebab.html
Note: the jury wasn't able to reach a verdict at the first trial, and the charges were eventually withdrawn at the second leading to not guilty verdicts.
The results will end up with a similar outcome...
Significant age gaps with children were extremely rare (to the extent that we know), although once they were adults they unusual but not unheard of (especially for women who were married at the instruction of the king).
Sex with children was frowned on before the age of 12, and definitely not before puberty in any event.
But our society has developed in the last 500 years*
* And please not it has been 20+ years since I studied blood politics, so this is all from memory
Dunno, when was the "age of consent" law passed?
From wikipedia
The youngest monarch to marry was David II, who married Joan, daughter of Edward II when he was 4 years, 134 days old in 1328.
The youngest female monarch at the time of her marriage was Mary II, who was 15 years, 188 days old when she married William III in 1677.
The youngest queen consort was Isabella of Valois, who married Richard II when she was 6 years, 358 days old in 1396.
UKIP are still running behind in organisation and votes in Greater London and although there will be improvement before the GE it won't be enough to make up from a low base.
The Guardian on the other hand has a public sector middle class readership and so remains a nest of deniers.
Possibly, but we were discussing the child bride in the Koran?
There were plenty of older people, both male and female, in Europe at that time.
Before I go, can I suggest you might like to take a look at the figures for handicapped children correlated with first cousin marriages in the UK today. The BBC did a programme on it not so long back.
Also there's the fictional Major Major from Catch 22
I don't think I need to meet Farage to know his modus operandi. He's said it often enough...
Those Lib Dem numbers as well........
Average age of 12, quoted in that article, is practically mathematically impossible.
http://t.co/NyznaUzB8I
I bet Shadsy's working on it right now. After all, they're not going to take much money on the winner market now.
And angry voters are in the main, Kippers.
Night all. Perhaps things will look better for the Tories in the morning, but I suspect it will be several thousand before it's a morning when they will be looking at the prospect of winning again (hey, 2020 is still possible at least).
I have met a few prostitutes in my time (through my profession rather than theirs!) and most were "on the game" before their 16th birthday, though often from such chaotic backgrounds that they did not appreciate that they were being pimped by their "boyfriends" at that age.
With all the terrorists, perverts, and common criminals running around, it is truly pathetic that the police, both domestic and international are being employed to torment further, a family which is bereft with grief. A five year old boy, dying of an incurable brain tumour, has been taken from the hospital, which admits his condition is incurable, to be in the heart of a loving family. Here we have bureaucracy at its vilest: self-righteous, ‘we know what is best’ medical and social workers anxious to claw this dying child back into the hospital. Hospitals can be frightening places at the best of times, and with Jimmy Savilles and other monsters stalking the wards, any parent must be nervous to leave their offspring at the tender mercies of Britain’s child care. Why are valuable manpower and financial resources being wasted on a family who want to care for their own? Why are a decent family being labelled as religious maniacs by a society that mocks Christianity, Judaism and any other civilised ethos? Leave this family alone to love, care and later mourn for their beloved son. Use the resources available to go after the child abusers, and all the other criminals which haunt our land.
" By 1846 the hospital had moved to new purpose-built premises at 41 Rottenrow Lane. Women from Duke Street Prison were sent there, still manacled together as they were treated. Child victims of abuse and incest were being discovered in huge numbers, but society found this impossible to admit. One Lock doctor, Mr Alexander Paterson, is on record in 1882 as saying a seven-year-old girl ''had given the illness to herself''. There were certainly syphilitic babies born in The Lock, but many others, like Annie Ellen and Elisabeth,....."
http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/spl/aberdeen/sex-crimes-1.264854
He wants the the Conservatives destroyed, as they were in Canada in 1993, followed by a "realignment" such as we've seen in Canada between Conservative and "Reform".
I've seen him interviewed several times where he's said this is his "end game". Surprised it's so controversial on here?
Mind, at least he's honest about it...
Turnout at the general election in Clacton was 64.2%, quite a low figure. I don't think it's totally impossible it might be slightly higher in the by-election, which would be an extremely unusual occurrence. I'd put a small bet on it happening if available.
I think the bookies will have closed their books overnite, to protect themselves against just such a poll as we have just seen.
Could you imagine what would happen in the unlikely event the Tories won the 2015 election with a very small majority or just short of a majority. Even if Cameron managed to get a bill passed for a referendum, he would be faced with demands from Eurosceptics about the reforms they want to see. Cameron would then try to negotiate with other EU leaders, most of whom won't be that interested in UK demands and may have their own EU reforms they want to see. The EU will try to avoid a new treaty because of the fact that many countries have to hold referendums on EU membership, so they would have to find a way that did not involve a new treary.
This would take along time, with all the other more important things going on in the world, so unlikely Cameron would be able to present significant EU reforms affecting the UK by Autumn 2017. Meanwhile UKIP and some Tories would be demanding an in/out referendum, as Cameron promised. Any government led by Cameron would be in a complete mess and would start to lose the confidence of the public and parliament. There is then the possibility that Cameron would face a leadership contest and be replaced by Boris.
I am not sure the country can afford to elect a government that would be so unstable, fighting about Europe, which has been their achilles for the last 40 years or more.
If under a Miliband Government other Labour areas like say Rotherham were to come to the same conclusion they might jump straight to UKIP without bothering with the Tories particularly if there is already a small but vocal UKIP representation in Westminster which has a plausible message..
How on Earth does anyone with a conscience admire this historical figure, let alone exalt him as the greatest man ever?
Because it would have been normal at the time?
Maybe Spain held treasured memories for the boy and his family and they wanted him to re-live one last moment of beauty and love and peace, without the cold, mechanical interruption of tubes and machines, before he passed away? If so, what is that to do with anybody else?
Now, if his condition is treatable/curable its an entirely different matter, but as has currently been presented, I hope the authorities are as lenient to the parents as possible.
I agree. The Conservatives look likely to commit electoral suicide.
Too many would rather have Milliband and Balls safely in Downing St with a comfortable majority, than stick to Camerons 2017 referendum agreement.
The Eds are right to be keeping quiet, never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
It looks to me that the value is in a labour majority. 8:1 on Labour 351-375 seats with Shadsy for example.
Clacton By-Election Poll Results
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six polls fieldwork 25th to 29th Aug:
Lab 36.0% (-1.1)
Con 33.2% (-0.3)
UKIP 14.0% (+1.1)
LibDem 7.5% (-1.0)
(changes from last week's ELBOW - last week's adjusted for the YouGov Sunday Times)
I would also note that Jesus of Nazareth and Siddhartha Guatama, who lived six hundred years earlier, never engaged in paedophilia or sex slavery.
"It comes as polling suggests the “yes” campaign led by Scottish National party leader Alex Salmond is six points from victory, and support has risen a little of late, to 44%."
Now if it is a panelbase poll, then actually yes are down 2% if it is after DKs are excluded or up 2% if it before DKs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_Qurayza
Rayhana seems to have been quite feisty, in that in most accounts she seems to have refused to marry Mohammad, or to convert to Islam or wear the Hijab, but rather preferred to remain a slave, at least for some years. She seems to have died quite young.
Mohammad had a large number of wives and concubines, but curiously few children recorded, which seems to be quite significant in that the Sunni/Shia split was in part a dispute over who should inherit the caliphate, as there was no obvious heir.
Yep, me too.
There may well be more to this than we can be told, as the hospital cannot breach confidentiality as to the cause of their concern.
Nite all.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738786/Revealed-Damning-dossier-proves-police-tsar-refusing-quit-Rotherham-scandal-WAS-alerted-horrific-scale-grooming.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2738787/Cameron-faces-Ukip-election-bloodbath-Party-set-win-Commons-seat-shock-poll-reveals-Farages-staggering-44-point-lead-Tories.html
The fact that not only are they involved but they have hounded an innocent family across an entire continent on a politically correct whim should scare us all.
Even worse that it is wrapped inside a rather fascist "we know best and although we can't think of a law you've broken yet we'll make something up if we want to" attitude. Which the police aren't even making any effort to disguise.
And following my earlier post the Hampshire head plod has indeed gone on tv to confirm that half of his staff are currently rummaging through cupboards for their buckets, spades and KissMeQuick hats.
Good for them. The beaches are fantastic this time of year. I might even get to meet some of them "on duty". Crime-solving is more pleasant here than it is in Rotherham, it seems!
The Sunday Times uses panelbase
Alex won the debate but people have their doubts about what he has promised
Thought you were off to noddington?