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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield’s Local By-Election Preview: August 28th 201

SystemSystem Posts: 12,213
edited August 2014 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Harry Hayfield’s Local By-Election Preview: August 28th 2014

North Jesmond on Newcastle upon Tyne (Lib Dem Defence)
Result of last election to council (2014): Labour 52, Liberal Democrats 24, Independents 2 (Labour majority of 26)
Result of ward at last election (2011): Liberal Democrats 870 (37%), Labour 770 (33%), Conservatives 419 (18%), Greens 273 (12%0
Candidates duly nominated:

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    First?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Thanks again, Harry, for compiling these!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,950
    Thanks, Mr. Hayfield.

    Leaving now (been on the computer most of the day), but a final psychopathic word:
    one of the main characters in my work-in-progress is something of a psychopath. Loosely inspired by Livia from I, Claudius and mad Alice from the first season of Luther.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    Labour gain would think, but lets make it a test after Rotherham.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Looks like we are getting a survation indyref poll in the Mail tomorrow.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Betfair, Clacton:

    UKIP 1.25
    Con 4.1
    Lab 5
    LD 34
    Oth 50
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I recall that Jesmond is quite a university area, cannot see the LDs holding on.

    Labour gain.

  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    Speedy said:

    Labour gain would think, but lets make it a test after Rotherham.

    Jesmond's pretty posh, academics and professionals.
  • Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 20m

    Tonight's YouGov/Sun poll: Labour are back to a 3 point lead and the Libs are very low - CON 33%, LAB 36%, LDEM 7%, UKIP 13%.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Bugger, the curse of the new thread:

    Plato said:
    » show previous quotes
    "Exactly. There's a certain charisma that accompanies much of this too. You won't find a successful cult leader who doesn't have NPD. They have some great qualities, and not just the cliches that tend to be bandied about.

    The ones I've known and had as good friends are extremely loyal, will protect you in extremis and superbly daring/funny company. They get things done. They tend to have very few friends as a lot of the behaviour is about protecting themselves emotionally/not feeling good enough [perfection is the yardstick] - but once you're inside the tent, it gives you a very special status...you're no longer a muggle, but one of them.

    Because they're often very clever - they use it to dominate situations either verbally or intellectually. This is frequently quite bullying, if the person is really off the leash - especially when dealing with performances that don't meet their self-imposed standards of perfection. Very black and white in their views too, not people to cross or lie to. Trust is a big one for them - and revenge is dealt out accordingly.

    Some folk find them really high maintenance or intimidating/cruel - I like them, they keep you on your toes all the time. Being on the wrong end of one is painful to watch, it's like Christians being fed to lions."


    Wotcha Miss P.,

    Didn't you get on well with a recent generation of Chief Constables? A lot of them matched your description to a T. The problem was they weren't actually good at leading, bullying and shouting, yes, but leading, no. They mostly left their respective forces and policing generally in a far worse state than they found them.

    Its very easy to tell a good leader, their people want to follow them. Not just the cronies and those hoping for promotion but all their people. I used to work on a management development course for people who has just been promoted to strategic level. Day 1 and the opening question was, "OK you have now become strategic leaders in your organisation. Why should anyone follow you?" Amazingly enough very few people had ever thought about it. I even had one ACPO officer say, and I kid you not, "Because I am an Assistant Chief Constable".
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    RobD said:

    Looks like we are getting a survation indyref poll in the Mail tomorrow.

    Strange hunch that Yes are going to like it a lot.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Does this thread header really state a Lab gain = Ed in 10 a certainty?
    Are the voters of Jesmond that precognitive?!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    Hugh said:

    RobD said:

    Looks like we are getting a survation indyref poll in the Mail tomorrow.

    Strange hunch that Yes are going to like it a lot.
    Well they did have a good debate. We'll see if the same arguments about debate bounces get mentioned again... ;-)
  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    Speedy said:

    Labour gain would think, but lets make it a test after Rotherham.

    Jesmond's pretty posh, academics and professionals.
    It's all irrelevant if Labour loses Scotland, and 40 MPs - and all the rest of Scottish Labour's money, ideas, activism, and energy. Which is now very very possible.


    Well the threat to Labour of Scottish independence is hugely overstated by some.

    But it wouldn't be ideal.
  • Let's try this again - Andros T (England player) is being outplayed by AEL's defenders....
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

  • eekeek Posts: 28,585
    edited August 2014

    I recall that Jesmond is quite a university area, cannot see the LDs holding on.

    Labour gain.

    Its not your typical university area but one area with a very stereotypical type of student (Student Grant from Viz was a mickey take on those who live there).

    While the students may not be there at the moment I doubt many of them voted anyway...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    If it is a YES then LAB, on current numbers, will need just an extra 11 gains in rUK to make up. Do the maths. It is not as big a deal as you make out.

  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Hugh said:

    RobD said:

    Looks like we are getting a survation indyref poll in the Mail tomorrow.

    Strange hunch that Yes are going to like it a lot.
    The 2nd debate was the proper Alex Salmond. Darling was simply no match for Salmond on top form. I still think he needed a performance like that in both debates to move enough voters into the Yes camp. I'm amazed that Better Together didn't make more political capital at the time over Mr Swinney caught telling a bare faced lie that negotiations had gone on between the yes camp and the BoE over Scotland using the pound post a yes vote.

  • HughHugh Posts: 955

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    What about Sean's first point Mike. Do you think Dave would go?
  • Ebayers 'selling' Scottish referendum votes for £1.04

    Police investigate as an ebayer claiming to live in Glasgow sells his votes as he does 'not give a flying monkeys about any of this'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11062014/Ebayers-selling-Scottish-referendum-votes-for-1.04.html
  • Note of caution for punters and pundits - tonight's indyref poll is from Survation. Their last poll was a big outlier, showing an 8 point swing to no. Tonight's poll will likely show a significant swing to yes even if there has been no change on the ground. The betting patterns this evening may reflect people getting ahead of the media over reaction if Survation reverts to the mean. Of course, it may also be punters responding to today's events or developments on the ground...
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Hugh said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    What about Sean's first point Mike. Do you think Dave would go?
    Not sure about that. Changing leader 8 months before a general election is not that smart and, remember, Cameron polls better than his party.

  • HughHugh Posts: 955
    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    Do you do on site bets? If so bet you £50 at evens that Cameron will not resign in the event of a yes vote - void if vote is no.

  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
  • Let's try this again - Andros T (England player) is being outplayed by AEL's defenders....

    Damn I'm good.... ok we go again.

    Sandro never scores these days....
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    "The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself."

    She will still be Queen of Scotland.

  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Am glad that Barnarbunga didn't go off whilst I was enjoying myself in Stockholm last weekend. A combined Askja eruption with Barnarbunga would be quite a spectacular sight:

    http://iceagenow.info/2014/08/iceland-website-calling-double-eruption/

    And Katla is long overdue as well. Katla will cause infinitely more problems to european air space than the eruption 4 years ago, if it behaves true to form. Although miles from any road, swimming in the geothermal crater lake at Askja was an amazing experience when I was there:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Askja
  • Let's try this again - Andros T (England player) is being outplayed by AEL's defenders....

    Damn I'm good.... ok we go again.

    Sandro never scores these days....
    Can you also say Liverpool won't win on Sunday.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    Absolutely. This clinging on to the fixed term act like it means squat is ridiculous.
    A Labour majority of 3 (for example) passing a budget or QS with the votes of an Independent Scottish contingent would invoke a constitutional crisis and force the nation to ACTIVATE THE QUEEN.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    "The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself."

    She will still be Queen of Scotland.

    The question is, will Scotland have a Governor General?
  • Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Hmm..... that post is familiar....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @volcanopete

    re: United & Cecil

    It's a dining club of young Tories, mainly in their 30s who shell out a couple of hundred a time for dinner with various MPs. I was briefly a member, but then dropped out because I never had time to go any of the events.

    There really is nothing sinister about it. In fact it was really rather dull.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,507
    edited August 2014
    Parveen Qureshi told BBC Sheffield: 'The Asian community leaders, they knew about it, it was discussed at the mosque and other places.

    'The leaders who agencies had contacted to discuss issues, they knew about this.

    'Community leaders were aware of what was happening and they were trying to solve that problem for forever - not just on this occasion but on many occasions people were talking to the community's leaders.


    Was there anybody who didn't know this was going on? Other than obviously the guy in charge. Also solving the problem, really, weren't very successful were they. And I presume that their solution didn't involve going to the police.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.


  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,312
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).
    Why? Come 2016, Scottish MPs will simply cease being MPs.

    Norns? You are convinced Orkney and Shetland will stay with the Union?

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Charles said:

    @volcanopete

    re: United & Cecil

    It's a dining club of young Tories, mainly in their 30s who shell out a couple of hundred a time for dinner with various MPs. I was briefly a member, but then dropped out because I never had time to go any of the events.

    There really is nothing sinister about it. In fact it was really rather dull.

    Wonder what the denizens of Rotherham pay Labour for dinner with them?
  • Liverpool will beat Spurs. They will definitely not have 2 men sent off early doors either...
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited August 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.
    Surely Lab would just move into a coalition with LD.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    edited August 2014
    oof close by Sandro....

    for him.

    Now subbed.... Holtby never to score from a freekick before he's sold at the weekend?
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 758

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).
    Why? Come 2016, Scottish MPs will simply cease being MPs.

    Norns? You are convinced Orkney and Shetland will stay with the Union?

    If Labour are the largest party, then them losing 40-odd MP's will have consequences for them holding the confidence of the Commons. Election imminent or chaos for 5 years.

    The fixed-term act was never going to last long after this Parliament anyway.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.


    The constitutional crisis comes earlier, if Lab have a wafer majority. They will have the technical ability to swerve a vote of confidence issue a la budget/QS on borrowed votes.
    Having said that, if yes wins, expect 25 plus SNPers next year.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    If it is a YES then LAB, on current numbers, will need just an extra 11 gains in rUK to make up. Do the maths. It is not as big a deal as you make out.

    It's a huge deal for Labour, long term, as Scotland is the emotional and ideological heartland of the party: where Kier Hardie was born. Apart from Scotland, where else is their core vote concentrated?

    Rotherham?!

    And therein lies the problem.

    As for the 2015 election, if Scotland votes YES all bets are off. It is the biggest of black swans. Yes we could see the normal reversion to a Labour government with a small majority, or we could see total chaos, as all parties reel from the blow (and the PM resigns).

    My guess is that a lot of English people will vote Tory as they are perceived (rightly) as the "English" party best equipped to negotiate with the departing Scots in the ensuing divorce. This will equalise with the swing back to Labour. Result: NOM.

    Then a new election in 2016.


    It would change Labour, but equally plausible that ditching the Old Labour Scots would create space for the English Labour Party to reform in a more Blairite social democratic style, who become the natural party of government.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited August 2014
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/


    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.


    Nick Clegg...

  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    Hague is standing down as an MP it won't be him.

    My own hunch, were it to happen, and Dave quits, a Tory leadership election takes around 3 months.

    To put it bluntly, we can't afford to dick around for 2 to 3 months.

    So the next Tory leader will be coronated, and that will favour Theresa May.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    MikeL said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.
    Surely Lab would just move into a coalition with LD.
    I'm not sure Carmichael and Kennedy will be enough
  • Mike Smithson ‏@MSmithsonPB 1m

    Betfair #IndyRef YES price moves sharply upwards to a 21% chance. Was 14%. Leak of new poll? Could be

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwJvs26IEAAAUAA.jpg
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    Hague is standing down as an MP it won't be him.

    My own hunch, were it to happen, and Dave quits, a Tory leadership election takes around 3 months.

    To put it bluntly, we can't afford to dick around for 2 to 3 months.

    So the next Tory leader will be coronated, and that will favour Theresa May.
    Hague as caretaker PM, with the Tory leadership vote to be announced at dissolution?
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    A beautifully put case for Scottish independence:

    http://www.acting-man.com/?p=32596

    Would Hayek approve?
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    Hague is standing down as an MP it won't be him.

    My own hunch, were it to happen, and Dave quits, a Tory leadership election takes around 3 months.

    To put it bluntly, we can't afford to dick around for 2 to 3 months.

    So the next Tory leader will be coronated, and that will favour Theresa May.
    Hague as caretaker PM, with the Tory leadership vote to be announced at dissolution?
    We can't afford to dick around until dissolution which would be March/April time!
  • Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Well, you're rather premature on all three assertions, which makes your concluding question somewhat pointless, but on the basis of record employment, rapidly falling unemployment, a strongly growing economy, falling crime rates and reasonable satisfaction rates with public services, I think we can safely conclude that Cameron is not the worst prime minister ever, or even close.

    He's fine, possibly rather good. Unlikely to be recalled as one of the greats. But he will be defined by his second term if he gets one, or by a very favourable comparison to his replacement if he does not, so it's too early to close the book.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2014
    If Scotland leaves the UK, the idea that there won't be another UK general election for more than four years isn't tenable IMO.
  • SocratesSocrates Posts: 10,322

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    Hague is standing down as an MP it won't be him.

    My own hunch, were it to happen, and Dave quits, a Tory leadership election takes around 3 months.

    To put it bluntly, we can't afford to dick around for 2 to 3 months.

    So the next Tory leader will be coronated, and that will favour Theresa May.
    Aren't both the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary senior to the Home Secretary?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Bugger, the curse of the new thread:

    Wotcha Miss P.,

    Didn't you get on well with a recent generation of Chief Constables? A lot of them matched your description to a T. The problem was they weren't actually good at leading, bullying and shouting, yes, but leading, no. They mostly left their respective forces and policing generally in a far worse state than they found them.

    Its very easy to tell a good leader, their people want to follow them. Not just the cronies and those hoping for promotion but all their people. I used to work on a management development course for people who has just been promoted to strategic level. Day 1 and the opening question was, "OK you have now become strategic leaders in your organisation. Why should anyone follow you?" Amazingly enough very few people had ever thought about it. I even had one ACPO officer say, and I kid you not, "Because I am an Assistant Chief Constable".

    Yep - very like that.

    And several directors that were infamous for their bullying of muggles.

    I used to do a lot of informal coaching with them/how to get their way and be more personable/explaining how to talk with their staff in language that means something to them. I can only describe it as saving-themselves-from-themselves = most people were too scared to ever say it, or too easily squished by the response.

    I also spent a lot of my time deflecting incoming fire aimed at some poor sod. I get the type, and know how to deal with them without twisting their tails. We both know that we're playing a game with each other, but that's just another level of enormous private joke.

    TBH, it's quite threatening/inner circle stuff, if you're on the outside.

    I know I hate it when I'm outside the tent!

    That's why the personal charisma element is so crucial to their success. Being a handful is only worth it organisationally if you have enough allies, and real friends in the right places to have your back.

    Those who fall to Earth spectacularly fail to do this and get nailed by their own rivals/staff as payback.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,958
    edited August 2014
    A potentially huge boost for England in one Day cricket

    Cook threatened with ban after England are punished for slow over rate

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/11062374/Alastair-Cook-threatened-with-ban-after-England-are-punished-for-slow-over-rate-in-one-day-defeat-by-India.html
  • Socrates said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    Hague is standing down as an MP it won't be him.

    My own hunch, were it to happen, and Dave quits, a Tory leadership election takes around 3 months.

    To put it bluntly, we can't afford to dick around for 2 to 3 months.

    So the next Tory leader will be coronated, and that will favour Theresa May.
    Aren't both the Chancellor and the Foreign Secretary senior to the Home Secretary?
    Nope, they are holders of the Great Offices of State
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    Anyone know who is offering the best odds on the tories in Clacton? Busy day tomorrow but got to be worth a dabble.

    At the moment this looks very bad for the tories. Win the seat and get rid of one of their awkward brigade at the same time and it could look a whole lot better. Newark showed that the tory by election machine was in better nick than I can remember in my life time. They will be throwing the kitchen sink at this one.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    Hague is standing down as an MP it won't be him.

    My own hunch, were it to happen, and Dave quits, a Tory leadership election takes around 3 months.

    To put it bluntly, we can't afford to dick around for 2 to 3 months.

    So the next Tory leader will be coronated, and that will favour Theresa May.
    Hague as caretaker PM, with the Tory leadership vote to be announced at dissolution?
    We can't afford to dick around until dissolution which would be March/April time!
    Continuity Hague is the answer. Then let the electorate decide on the coming man/woman
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Peter Kellner of YouGov on Sky News:

    Carswell to win by-election "comfortably".
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326
    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Only if Blair and Brown are airbrushed from history.

    But certainly not as good as he thinks he is or as some hoped he might be.

  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    All bets are off in that situation! I rather agree with you that Hague would be the obvious choice under such a scenario. Chaos is coming one way or another to the political scene over the next 6 years or so. I think it will revolve around a sovereign debt scenario, but this would sure be an interesting way to kick it off.

    Brilliant riposte by Salmond and Swinney to refuse to take on any share of the UK debt in abstentia of being able to use the pound. And Mr Osborne thought he was being clever in the spring by playing the sterling card - law of unintended consequences and all of that.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,529

    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Well, you're rather premature on all three assertions, which makes your concluding question somewhat pointless, but on the basis of record employment, rapidly falling unemployment, a strongly growing economy, falling crime rates and reasonable satisfaction rates with public services, I think we can safely conclude that Cameron is not the worst prime minister ever, or even close.

    He's fine, possibly rather good. Unlikely to be recalled as one of the greats. But he will be defined by his second term if he gets one, or by a very favourable comparison to his replacement if he does not, so it's too early to close the book.
    I don't think he'll go down as the worst *ever*. But, I think he'll be seen as pretty poor. What kind of wally thinks it's a great idea to disband a fifth of the armed forces when conflict is breaking out all around him?

  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    edited August 2014
    If Scotland votes YES then I would expect legislation to be brought forward prior to the GE to disenfranchise immediately Scottish MPs from all matters other than those directly connected with Scotland.

    Cameron would feel hugely deflated but I doubt he would resign, nor should he. He has played the issue right: right to allow the referendum, right to state briefly and clearly his support for the Union, right to stay out of the campaign. If the Scots want independence then that is no unique failing of his; they just want independence.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    hunchman said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything.

    Don't be ridiculous, that law will have to be be repealed by any incoming government in 2015, to deal with the anomaly of foreign Scots MPs making laws for the English, Norns and Welsh from 2016-2020 (which is what would happen if the law stays in place).

    The Fixed Parliament Act may be reinstated post 2016 independence, but that's a different question.

    You're just jealous that I noted the VALUE in the next PM market, before you.

    I pointed it out before you. Nah nanana nah

    http://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2014/04/16/are-we-really-only-five-months-away-from-daves-resignation/
    Actually I think I first noted this possibility around Xmas.

    Cue Peter the Punter to tell us he spotted the VALUE just after lunch, on Easter Sunday, 2011.

    Anyway, here's a fun game (for anoraks). Let's say Scotland votes YES, and that I am right, and Cameron resigns within a few weeks/months of the vote (i.e. before the next GE).

    Who do pb-ers think would take over?

    I have a feeling Hague might get the nod, as a kind of caretaker manager. And he was 50/1 last time I looked at the next PM market.

    All bets are off in that situation! I rather agree with you that Hague would be the obvious choice under such a scenario. Chaos is coming one way or another to the political scene over the next 6 years or so. I think it will revolve around a sovereign debt scenario, but this would sure be an interesting way to kick it off.

    Brilliant riposte by Salmond and Swinney to refuse to take on any share of the UK debt in abstentia of being able to use the pound. And Mr Osborne thought he was being clever in the spring by playing the sterling card - law of unintended consequences and all of that.
    The shocking behaviour of the French in Algeria rears it's head.
    Squabbles and inanity. Do it, and do it with good grace England
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    PeterC said:

    If Scotland votes YES then I would expect legislation to be brought forward prior to the GE to disenfranchise immediately Scottish MPs from all matters other than those directly connected with Scotland.

    Cameron would feel hugely deflated but I doubt he would resign, nor should he. He has played the issue right: right to allow the referendum, right to state briefly and clearly his support for the Union, right to stay out of the campaign. If the Scots want independence then that is no unique failing of his; they just want independence.

    I think you're mistaken. Cameron will resign as PM if he loses Scotland.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Well, you're rather premature on all three assertions, which makes your concluding question somewhat pointless, but on the basis of record employment, rapidly falling unemployment, a strongly growing economy, falling crime rates and reasonable satisfaction rates with public services, I think we can safely conclude that Cameron is not the worst prime minister ever, or even close.

    He's fine, possibly rather good. Unlikely to be recalled as one of the greats. But he will be defined by his second term if he gets one, or by a very favourable comparison to his replacement if he does not, so it's too early to close the book.
    If he loses the Union - when he could easily have saved it with Devomax - then I am afraid Hugh is correct.

    Cameron will go down in history as possibly the worst prime minister ever. All else will appear very trivial, in the eyes of posterity. Future historians won't look at "crime rates" - the secession of Scotland will entirely overshadow everything else.

    There is a piquant irony that it might be an Old Etonian, Oxbridge Bullingdonian who F*cked it all up for the British Establishment.
    Probably because deep down he loathes what he is but can't change it, or be where he is without it. So he's destroyed it.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    If it is a YES then LAB, on current numbers, will need just an extra 11 gains in rUK to make up. Do the maths. It is not as big a deal as you make out.

    It's a huge deal for Labour, long term, as Scotland is the emotional and ideological heartland of the party: where Kier Hardie was born. Apart from Scotland, where else is their core vote concentrated?

    Rotherham?!

    And therein lies the problem.

    As for the 2015 election, if Scotland votes YES all bets are off. It is the biggest of black swans. Yes we could see the normal reversion to a Labour government with a small majority, or we could see total chaos, as all parties reel from the blow (and the PM resigns).

    My guess is that a lot of English people will vote Tory as they are perceived (rightly) as the "English" party best equipped to negotiate with the departing Scots in the ensuing divorce. This will equalise with the swing back to Labour. Result: NOM.

    Then a new election in 2016.


    It would change Labour, but equally plausible that ditching the Old Labour Scots would create space for the English Labour Party to reform in a more Blairite social democratic style, who become the natural party of government.
    If Scotland leaves the Union, I sincerely expect rUK to quit the EU within five-ten years. The principle of secession, after a referendum, will prove quite infectious.

    Moreover, today's migration stats were a killer.

    We cannot sustain this influx. The only way to manage it is by leaving the EU, it seems. And if something cannot be sustained, it will end.
    It is far from clear that Yes will win, or that a Brexit vote would be won by out.

    More likely we will have a small Milliband majority, and we will never find out what the result of an EU ref would be.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Impossible.

    Blair wins that prize - his legacy is exploding across the Middle East around the clock.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    PeterC said:

    If Scotland votes YES then I would expect legislation to be brought forward prior to the GE to disenfranchise immediately Scottish MPs from all matters other than those directly connected with Scotland.

    Cameron would feel hugely deflated but I doubt he would resign, nor should he. He has played the issue right: right to allow the referendum, right to state briefly and clearly his support for the Union, right to stay out of the campaign. If the Scots want independence then that is no unique failing of his; they just want independence.

    I agree. Cameron has a strong sense of duty, and would remain in post.

    Throwing a fit of vanity and causing difficulties for his party is not his way, he is not Davis or Carswell.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    If it is a YES then LAB, on current numbers, will need just an extra 11 gains in rUK to make up. Do the maths. It is not as big a deal as you make out.

    It's a huge deal for Labour, long term, as Scotland is the emotional and ideological heartland of the party: where Kier Hardie was born. Apart from Scotland, where else is their core vote concentrated?

    Rotherham?!

    And therein lies the problem.

    As for the 2015 election, if Scotland votes YES all bets are off. It is the biggest of black swans. Yes we could see the normal reversion to a Labour government with a small majority, or we could see total chaos, as all parties reel from the blow (and the PM resigns).

    My guess is that a lot of English people will vote Tory as they are perceived (rightly) as the "English" party best equipped to negotiate with the departing Scots in the ensuing divorce. This will equalise with the swing back to Labour. Result: NOM.

    Then a new election in 2016.


    It would change Labour, but equally plausible that ditching the Old Labour Scots would create space for the English Labour Party to reform in a more Blairite social democratic style, who become the natural party of government.
    If Scotland leaves the Union, I sincerely expect rUK to quit the EU within five-ten years. The principle of secession, after a referendum, will prove quite infectious.

    Moreover, today's migration stats were a killer.

    We cannot sustain this influx. The only way to manage it is by leaving the EU, it seems. And if something cannot be sustained, it will end.
    The EU will fall apart in the upcoming sovereign debt crisis in bitterness and acrimony. And it won't be a moment too soon. Hopefully the UK or rUK will free itself from the mess before it comes to that. Trying to force the UK to adopt the common financial transaction tax could be the lightning rod for such an event, as there is no way come hell or high water that the City will be wearing that one.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Impossible.

    Blair wins that prize - his legacy is exploding across the Middle East around the clock.
    He was a lucky man to lead Labour. Tories tend to act on principle (some of them anyway) even to the cost of their party. Stalinists like Skinner, Meacher and Abbott to name a fraction never moved against him because they like their pay checks and don't want to live like the people they pretend to represent.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2014
    Marc Jones selected by Tories in Great Grimsby:

    https://twitter.com/itsmarcjones

    In 2010 the Conservative candidate was Victoria Ayling, who is now the UKIP candidate for the constituency.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    If it is a YES then LAB, on current numbers, will need just an extra 11 gains in rUK to make up. Do the maths. It is not as big a deal as you make out.

    It's a huge deal for Labour, long term, as Scotland is the emotional and ideological heartland of the party: where Kier Hardie was born. Apart from Scotland, where else is their core vote concentrated?

    Rotherham?!

    And therein lies the problem.

    As for the 2015 election, if Scotland votes YES all bets are off. It is the biggest of black swans. Yes we could see the normal reversion to a Labour government with a small majority, or we could see total chaos, as all parties reel from the blow (and the PM resigns).

    My guess is that a lot of English people will vote Tory as they are perceived (rightly) as the "English" party best equipped to negotiate with the departing Scots in the ensuing divorce. This will equalise with the swing back to Labour. Result: NOM.

    Then a new election in 2016.


    It would change Labour, but equally plausible that ditching the Old Labour Scots would create space for the English Labour Party to reform in a more Blairite social democratic style, who become the natural party of government.
    If Scotland leaves the Union, I sincerely expect rUK to quit the EU within five-ten years. The principle of secession, after a referendum, will prove quite infectious.

    Moreover, today's migration stats were a killer.

    We cannot sustain this influx. The only way to manage it is by leaving the EU, it seems. And if something cannot be sustained, it will end.
    It is far from clear that Yes will win, or that a Brexit vote would be won by out.

    More likely we will have a small Milliband majority, and we will never find out what the result of an EU ref would be.
    It is entirely possible that events could move so quickly from late 2015 when confidence turns down on the economic confidence model, that the 2017 referendum vote even in the event of a Conservative led government remaining in power post the GE becomes irrelevant on the sovereign debt inspired breakup of the EU.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,834
    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    That'll put him level with Lloyd George then.
  • Seant - sure, losing the union would be a big deal, but it should not define him. The union wasn't Cameron's to give away. All he did was allow the Scottish demos a choice that they had, by electing the SNP, demanded. The other options - continued status quo or devo max, are not sustainable without popular Scottish support. If yes wins the vote, it would be fair to say Cameron miscalculated, but unfair to pretend he did so in the face of other clearly better options.

    Sean Fear - you have to remember the context that we were withdrawing from Iraq and Afghanistan, and the nature of warfare is changing. The future is in air power inc drones, specialist forces, cyber and technological warfare, and budgetary priorities have shifted. Defence procurement was also left in a complete mess by the last government, the nimrod and aircraft carrier projects being the most obvious examples. I won't pretend Cameron has been outstanding on defence by any means, but at a time of unprecedented budgetary pressure he has done OK.
  • PeterC said:

    If Scotland votes YES then I would expect legislation to be brought forward prior to the GE to disenfranchise immediately Scottish MPs from all matters other than those directly connected with Scotland.

    Cameron would feel hugely deflated but I doubt he would resign, nor should he. He has played the issue right: right to allow the referendum, right to state briefly and clearly his support for the Union, right to stay out of the campaign. If the Scots want independence then that is no unique failing of his; they just want independence.

    I agree. Cameron has a strong sense of duty, and would remain in post.

    Throwing a fit of vanity and causing difficulties for his party is not his way, he is not Davis or Carswell.
    I do love the way people who put party and power before principle are so keen to claim that those who have more honour make their decisions purely on the basis of vanity or self service.

    It is a cowardly claim made by those who know they have no real answer to principled behaviour and who, by their comments, show they have no understanding of the concept.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    "The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself."

    She will still be Queen of Scotland.

    RobD said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    "The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself."

    She will still be Queen of Scotland.


    The question is, will Scotland have a Governor General?
    Not Queen of Scotland but Queen of Scots, to be precise (popular sovereignty and all that under Scots law).

    As for the GG, is anyone opening a betting market? I have one particular candidate in mind (and it is not Mr Salmond, for all that HM and Mr S get on well together).


  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited August 2014
    hunchman said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    If it is a YES then LAB, on current numbers, will need just an extra 11 gains in rUK to make up. Do the maths. It is not as big a deal as you make out.

    It's a huge deal for Labour, long term, as Scotland is the emotional and ideological heartland of the party: where Kier Hardie was born. Apart from Scotland, where else is their core vote concentrated?

    Rotherham?!

    And therein lies the problem.

    As for the 2015 election, if Scotland votes YES all bets are off. It is the biggest of black swans. Yes we could see the normal reversion to a Labour government with a small majority, or we could see total chaos, as all parties reel from the blow (and the PM resigns).

    My guess is that a lot of English people will vote Tory as they are perceived (rightly) as the "English" party best equipped to negotiate with the departing Scots in the ensuing divorce. This will equalise with the swing back to Labour. Result: NOM.

    Then a new election in 2016.


    It would change Labour, but equally plausible that ditching the Old Labour Scots would create space for the English Labour Party to reform in a more Blairite social democratic style, who become the natural party of government.
    If Scotland leaves the Union, I sincerely expect rUK to quit the EU within five-ten years. The principle of secession, after a referendum, will prove quite infectious.

    Moreover, today's migration stats were a killer.

    We cannot sustain this influx. The only way to manage it is by leaving the EU, it seems. And if something cannot be sustained, it will end.
    It is far from clear that Yes will win, or that a Brexit vote would be won by out.

    More likely we will have a small Milliband majority, and we will never find out what the result of an EU ref would be.
    It is entirely possible that events could move so quickly from late 2015 when confidence turns down on the economic confidence model, that the 2017 referendum vote even in the event of a Conservative led government remaining in power post the GE becomes irrelevant on the sovereign debt inspired breakup of the EU.



    How did your previous predictions turn out?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,014
    I would certainly agree that the next poll in Scotland is going to have a massive effect one way or another. There is an increasing sense of tension on both sides and the mood is febrile.

    The fact that it appears to be a Survation poll fills me with some trepidation but as OGH pointed out earlier today it is immensely frustrating how little polling there has been in Scotland and we need to take what we can get.

    I have consistently said that this was going to be closer than the polls were indicating or many on here thought. I have seen and heard nothing to suggest otherwise in recent times. A lead for Yes now and it really could be all over.
  • peter_from_putneypeter_from_putney Posts: 6,956
    edited August 2014

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 20m

    Tonight's YouGov/Sun poll: Labour are back to a 3 point lead and the Libs are very low - CON 33%, LAB 36%, LDEM 7%, UKIP 13%.

    Unusually low combined total of 89% for these 4 parties, suggesting a half decent score for the Greens.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Well, you're rather premature on all three assertions, which makes your concluding question somewhat pointless, but on the basis of record employment, rapidly falling unemployment, a strongly growing economy, falling crime rates and reasonable satisfaction rates with public services, I think we can safely conclude that Cameron is not the worst prime minister ever, or even close.

    He's fine, possibly rather good. Unlikely to be recalled as one of the greats. But he will be defined by his second term if he gets one, or by a very favourable comparison to his replacement if he does not, so it's too early to close the book.
    If he loses the Union - when he could easily have saved it with Devomax - then I am afraid Hugh is correct.

    Cameron will go down in history as possibly the worst prime minister ever. All else will appear very trivial, in the eyes of posterity. Future historians won't look at "crime rates" - the secession of Scotland will entirely overshadow everything else.

    There is a piquant irony that it might be an Old Etonian, Oxbridge Bullingdonian who F*cked it all up for the British Establishment.
    David Lloyd George was the last Liberal PM, and in a coalition with the Conservatives,when the last parting of the ways occurred for The Irish Free State in 1922.

    Can not imagine that Cameron would be the last Conservative PM for nearly a century if Scotland decides to leave.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 20m

    Tonight's YouGov/Sun poll: Labour are back to a 3 point lead and the Libs are very low - CON 33%, LAB 36%, LDEM 7%, UKIP 13%.

    Unusually low combined total of 89% for these 4 parties, suggesting a half decent score for the Greens.
    Others are moving like a bit of a yo-yo with YouGov, between 6% and 10% in the last fortnight.
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.


    The constitutional crisis comes earlier, if Lab have a wafer majority. They will have the technical ability to swerve a vote of confidence issue a la budget/QS on borrowed votes.
    Having said that, if yes wins, expect 25 plus SNPers next year.
    Oh, I agree. It's a constitutional gordion knot.

    Imagine if Scotland votes YES and the result of the 2015 general election is something like...

    Lab 300
    Con 280
    LD 35

    Why should Labour be given an opportunity of forming a government at all? Forty of its MPs will be representing a de facto foreign country, and will be constitutionally erased within 18 months ...
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    There was a time when you could rely on the reports from Janes weekly review. Alas, it seems no longer:

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/janes-defense-caught-with-pants-down.html

    And things in Venezuela going from bad to worse. Where are all those people on the left in this country who were cheering on Chavez and his so called reforms now? No one should be surprised at what is going on there right now, its a classic example of how extreme socialism ends in extreme failure:

    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/trapped-in-venezuela-looking-to-get-out.html
  • DavidL - see my post down thread. I am afraid even if Survation just reverts to the mean (its last poll being an outlier that showed an 8 point swing to no) it will give the impression of real momentum to yes. Do you sense a change on the ground? You have been nervous for some time.
  • OT. According to BBC Scotland news a number of people are trying to sell their Indy referendum votes on Ebay. :-)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,030
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.


    The constitutional crisis comes earlier, if Lab have a wafer majority. They will have the technical ability to swerve a vote of confidence issue a la budget/QS on borrowed votes.
    Having said that, if yes wins, expect 25 plus SNPers next year.
    Oh, I agree. It's a constitutional gordion knot.

    Imagine if Scotland votes YES and the result of the 2015 general election is something like...

    Lab 300
    Con 280
    LD 35

    Why should Labour be given an opportunity of forming a government at all? Forty of its MPs will be representing a de facto foreign country, and will be constitutionally erased within 18 months ...
    No they won't. Scotland won't be de facto independent until it actually is.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Well, you're rather premature on all three assertions, which makes your concluding question somewhat pointless, but on the basis of record employment, rapidly falling unemployment, a strongly growing economy, falling crime rates and reasonable satisfaction rates with public services, I think we can safely conclude that Cameron is not the worst prime minister ever, or even close.

    He's fine, possibly rather good. Unlikely to be recalled as one of the greats. But he will be defined by his second term if he gets one, or by a very favourable comparison to his replacement if he does not, so it's too early to close the book.
    If he loses the Union - when he could easily have saved it with Devomax - then I am afraid Hugh is correct.

    Cameron will go down in history as possibly the worst prime minister ever. All else will appear very trivial, in the eyes of posterity. Future historians won't look at "crime rates" - the secession of Scotland will entirely overshadow everything else.

    There is a piquant irony that it might be an Old Etonian, Oxbridge Bullingdonian who F*cked it all up for the British Establishment.
    I agree with Mr T, rather surprisingly. Rejecting the third option of Devomax may turn out to have been the crucial mistake. Much touted as a victory against Mr Salmond who had baited the trap by saying basically, "we SNPers want indy but so many voters want devomax - the proper federal kind - that we ought to do the decent democratic thing". Left the SNP on the high moral ground, a third of voters teed off, and a clear road to indy.

    The alternative way to look at it is that Mr C didn't feel able to exert the leadership to get it past the Tory backbench MPs etc. as the only way to save the union for sure.

    Either way, he gets the credit.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RobD said:

    Sun Politics @Sun_Politics · 20m

    Tonight's YouGov/Sun poll: Labour are back to a 3 point lead and the Libs are very low - CON 33%, LAB 36%, LDEM 7%, UKIP 13%.

    Unusually low combined total of 89% for these 4 parties, suggesting a half decent score for the Greens.
    Others are moving like a bit of a yo-yo with YouGov, between 6% and 10% in the last fortnight.
    Those figures for Others don't reflect what can happen on election day because the Greens probably won't contest enough seats to get more than 3% and the BNP will be lucky to put up 20 candidates. But the opinion polls assume both will be standing everywhere.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,954

    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Impossible.

    Blair wins that prize - his legacy is exploding across the Middle East around the clock.

    Yes to be a worse PM than Blair you would literally have to start a third world war, and given the way things are going Blair may end up shouldering the blame for that anyway.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Carnyx said:

    SeanT said:

    Hugh said:

    David Cameron: failed to win an election, fatally split his side of politics, lost the Union.

    Potentially the worst Prime Minister ever?

    Well, you're rather premature on all three assertions, which makes your concluding question somewhat pointless, but on the basis of record employment, rapidly falling unemployment, a strongly growing economy, falling crime rates and reasonable satisfaction rates with public services, I think we can safely conclude that Cameron is not the worst prime minister ever, or even close.

    He's fine, possibly rather good. Unlikely to be recalled as one of the greats. But he will be defined by his second term if he gets one, or by a very favourable comparison to his replacement if he does not, so it's too early to close the book.
    If he loses the Union - when he could easily have saved it with Devomax - then I am afraid Hugh is correct.

    Cameron will go down in history as possibly the worst prime minister ever. All else will appear very trivial, in the eyes of posterity. Future historians won't look at "crime rates" - the secession of Scotland will entirely overshadow everything else.

    There is a piquant irony that it might be an Old Etonian, Oxbridge Bullingdonian who F*cked it all up for the British Establishment.
    I agree with Mr T, rather surprisingly. Rejecting the third option of Devomax may turn out to have been the crucial mistake. Much touted as a victory against Mr Salmond who had baited the trap by saying basically, "we SNPers want indy but so many voters want devomax - the proper federal kind - that we ought to do the decent democratic thing". Left the SNP on the high moral ground, a third of voters teed off, and a clear road to indy.

    The alternative way to look at it is that Mr C didn't feel able to exert the leadership to get it past the Tory backbench MPs etc. as the only way to save the union for sure.

    Either way, he gets the credit.
    Devomax would be considered unacceptable by the English. Could never have been offered.
  • Hmm... Obama of the estuary.

    I just happen to know that principle in politics is more important than the career of an individual MP – even if that MP happens to be me.

    Things don't have to be this way. I'll be asking the voters of Essex to help me bring change. Let's do this together. Let's see if we can make history.

    Thank you. I must now return to Clacton to prepare for what is to come.

    http://www.talkcarswell.com/home/its-time-for-change/2801
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.


    The constitutional crisis comes earlier, if Lab have a wafer majority. They will have the technical ability to swerve a vote of confidence issue a la budget/QS on borrowed votes.
    Having said that, if yes wins, expect 25 plus SNPers next year.
    Oh, I agree. It's a constitutional gordion knot.

    Imagine if Scotland votes YES and the result of the 2015 general election is something like...

    Lab 300
    Con 280
    LD 35

    Why should Labour be given an opportunity of forming a government at all? Forty of its MPs will be representing a de facto foreign country, and will be constitutionally erased within 18 months ...
    I've noted before the timing of the SNP target indy day of 24 March 2016 - pass an emergency act to postpone the Westminster GE one year precisely and Mr Cameron can close the Westminster Pmt the morning he gets back from fireworks over Edinburgh Castle Esplanade, with exactly six weeks of purdah before a May 5-ish election. Avoids the problem of MPs getting a pension for one year's work, too.

    And there is a problem in that MPs are elected for a parliamentary term, are they not? So Scottish Labour MPs could still stick around even after indyday if Mr Miliband thought it the lesser of two evils from his point of view. So having a Westminster GE straight after indy day resolves that.
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664

    PeterC said:

    If Scotland votes YES then I would expect legislation to be brought forward prior to the GE to disenfranchise immediately Scottish MPs from all matters other than those directly connected with Scotland.

    Cameron would feel hugely deflated but I doubt he would resign, nor should he. He has played the issue right: right to allow the referendum, right to state briefly and clearly his support for the Union, right to stay out of the campaign. If the Scots want independence then that is no unique failing of his; they just want independence.

    I agree. Cameron has a strong sense of duty, and would remain in post.

    Throwing a fit of vanity and causing difficulties for his party is not his way, he is not Davis or Carswell.
    I do love the way people who put party and power before principle are so keen to claim that those who have more honour make their decisions purely on the basis of vanity or self service.

    It is a cowardly claim made by those who know they have no real answer to principled behaviour and who, by their comments, show they have no understanding of the concept.
    The point of principle involved is the right to self-determination of the Scottish people. Cameron has properly not tried to prevent them from exercising that right. He cannot be held accountable for the decision they make.


  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Well we found someone at last who wants Ed. Miliband to be PM - Dougie Carswell.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,578
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    PeterC said:

    If Scotland votes YES then I would expect legislation to be brought forward prior to the GE to disenfranchise immediately Scottish MPs from all matters other than those directly connected with Scotland.

    Cameron would feel hugely deflated but I doubt he would resign, nor should he. He has played the issue right: right to allow the referendum, right to state briefly and clearly his support for the Union, right to stay out of the campaign. If the Scots want independence then that is no unique failing of his; they just want independence.

    I think you're mistaken. Cameron will resign as PM if he loses Scotland.
    As such I reckon he is acutely aware of "the right thing to do", especially with regard to constitutional matters - like someone who recently escaped the working class and would rather die than say "pardon" - and he will feel reluctantly obliged to off himself, if he Loses the Union.
    And, rather remarkably, actually get some grudging praise, or at least respect for that at least, for once.
  • George Eaton‏@georgeeaton·5 mins
    First post-debate Scottish poll from Survation: No 53% (-4), Yes 47% (+4). (Via @johnestevens).
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited August 2014
    RodCrosby said:

    RodCrosby said:

    SeanT said:

    If Scotland votes YES then the next GE will be No Overall Majority, with No Overall Significance, as a new election will follow within 18 months, max.

    Yet again, I point pb-ers to the Next PM Market, where you can get 20/1 to 50/1 on likely Tory replacements for Cameron.

    Because David "Old Etonian" Cameron will resign if he loses the Union. The Queen's angry stare will be sufficient, in itself.

    There will be no election within 18 months because of the Fixed Term Parliament Act which changes everything. The following general election will be in May 2020

    Um, what happens if Labour form a government in 2015 by winning fewer than 40 more seats than the Tories?

    The largest party in the House will change on Independence Day...

    I'm sure civil servants are wargaming this scenario, but the most sensible option appears to be a fresh rUK election, and a special exception to the Fixed term Parliament Act.


    The constitutional crisis comes earlier, if Lab have a wafer majority. They will have the technical ability to swerve a vote of confidence issue a la budget/QS on borrowed votes.
    Having said that, if yes wins, expect 25 plus SNPers next year.
    Oh, I agree. It's a constitutional gordion knot.

    Imagine if Scotland votes YES and the result of the 2015 general election is something like...

    Lab 300
    Con 280
    LD 35

    Why should Labour be given an opportunity of forming a government at all? Forty of its MPs will be representing a de facto foreign country, and will be constitutionally erased within 18 months ...
    Whack through a law before May 2015 stating that any budget or QS from the start if the next parliament will cater to rUK only, devolve finance to the pt in Holyrood and bar Scots MPs voting on rUK matters. Miliband never gets a QS passed unless he can do a deal with the rump Libs (I guess)
This discussion has been closed.