Perpetrators of these dreadful crimes should never have been labelled by race, religion or any other label... They should have been treated as criminal suspects and subject to robust investigation, prosecution and conviction...
The victims should never have been labelled by race, class, from broken homes or anything else... They should have been treated as individuals deserving of the full protection of the authorities...
And the response now shouldn't be to reinforce stereotypes and seek affirmation of ones prejudices. It should be to demand even this late an effective, unprejudiced criminal investigation of all involved in Rotherham and elsewhere...
Posting clips of Enoch Powell and blaming immigration per se is self serving and does nothing to deal with what is dreadful criminality.
Well the perpetrators were all of one race and religion, a race and religion that wasn't shared with the victims... Like it or not it's a factor
Immigration per se isn't to blame, it's mass immigration
In what way is it a factor? Does the race or religion of the perpetrators and victims determine whether criminal acts have or haven't been committed?
No - but it may explain the motivation of the perpetrators. Any inquiry - and I speak as a professional investigator - should look at possible motivation.
Also the cultural factor (e.g. an attitude to women) may have a bearing not just on the motivation of the perpetrators but also on why there was a reluctance to investigate by those authorities who were informed of the problem. That too needs looking at because, almost as bad as the crimes themselves, were the apparent cover-ups and/or turning of blind eyes.
But as you rightly said there should be a full scale criminal inquiry and whoever has committed a crime should be prosecuted. And those who failed in their duties of investigation and protection should be disciplined and, where appropriate, prosecuted - without fear or favour or regard to ethnicities or religion or anything else.
Andrew Neil (@afneil) 26/08/2014 18:53 Is anyone in any doubt that if this had been bunch of white thugs sexually abusing black girls, ethnicity would never have been mentioned?
Surely it is no surprise that some Pakistani men are paedophiles and rapists. That is true of every creed and race.
It is also true of every creed and race that these practices will thrive when not checked by the rule of secular law.
What is at issue here is that political correctness was allowed to supersede the rule of law for a certain period in a certain place in Britain.
The chief culprits are those who established the climate of political correctness and the threat of being prosecuted for being called a racist, and allowed these principles to supersede the rule of law
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Surely it is no surprise that some Pakistani men are paedophiles and rapists. That is true of every creed and race.
It is also true of every creed and race that these practices will thrive when not checked by the rule of secular law.
What is at issue here is that political correctness was allowed to supersede the rule of law for a certain period in a certain place in Britain.
The chief culprits are those who established the climate of political correctness and the threat of being prosecuted for being called a racist, and allowed these principles to supersede the rule of law
I doubt Rotherham is the only place where this has happened and no doubt there will be councils where Tories or Lib Dems were in charge when similar crimes happened. Remember the Kincora Boys Home scandal happened in the 1970s in Northern Ireland.
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
To be fair to her Mr Llama she was asking why the inquiry which the Government announced a few weeks back appears to have run into the sands after Lady Butler-Sloss's resignation. A fair question, IMO.
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
You beat me to it. I was just about to say that.
Of course the other great thing about inquiries is they save politicians from saying unpopular things or having to take any action.
We have too many bloody inquiries, just for once I'd like to hear a politician spell out the long over due arse-kicking they are going to deliver.
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
To be fair to her Mr Llama she was asking why the inquiry which the Government announced a few weeks back appears to have run into the sands after Lady Butler-Sloss's resignation. A fair question, IMO.
Well, if Butler Sloss hadn't been forced out of the role for political reasons, an enquiry might be making headway into investigating the problem.
''Is anyone in any doubt that if this had been bunch of white thugs sexually abusing black girls, ethnicity would never have been mentioned?''
The perpetrators are not the issue. The issue is that they were allowed to get away with these crimes because of their race and creed by the authorities.
The policies of the labour party in the first decade of the 21st century are the reason why these crimes went on unchecked.
If people like you who did not like the BBC simply decided to stop funding it you would put it into crisis almost overnight. Instead, you whine and moan.
I doubt there's anyone that doesn't in some way like the BBC. Without question it is a little biased, without question it is a rather nasty tax, and without question it treats itself as if it was better than sliced bread. It is great and appalling in equal measure. The appalling being so unnecessary.
It's not really possible to vote with your feet though. Watching any live TV requires a license, and that money goes to the BBC (perhaps not satellite applicable?). Perhaps all payers should be able to choose where their money finishes up.
The values of the BBC have changed dramatically over the last 25 years - their prime editorial momentum now seems to be that they should regard any news about any ex or current BBC employee as far more important than the run of the mill nuclear war. If Clair Balding stubs her toe we won't notice that in the same week we've been contacted by ET, discovered perpetual motion, or have finally achieved world peace.
'Scottish Independence: Darling's Thrashing Proves Folly of Labour's Faustian Pact with Tories'
... Even more damagingly, Darling was seen to act as an apologist for NHS privatisation in England, for welfare cuts aimed at the disabled, and for policies that will increase child poverty.
There's a strong argument to be made that the biggest beneficiary of these gaffes was not Alex Salmond, or the SNP, or even the Green party, but rather the Labour for Independence group, which has just had their case made for them – namely that independence is now the only conceivable hope for a return to true Labour values.
After all, why is it that Labour rejected McLeish's advice, and failed to set up a non-Tory No campaign?
... for the very first time, they're gradually starting to realise that different rules apply when they're dealing with a Scotland-only electorate, and that being too right-wing and London-centric can lose elections (and referendums) too. In a sense, that's exactly what independence is all about.
Andrew Neil (@afneil) 26/08/2014 18:53 Is anyone in any doubt that if this had been bunch of white thugs sexually abusing black girls, ethnicity would never have been mentioned?
If it was admitted that the police had declined to interfere, for over a decade, because the perpetrators were white? I think race would have got a tiny, tiny mention. Does he actually mean what he appears to be saying, or has he got it the wrong way round?
'Scottish Independence: Darling's Thrashing Proves Folly of Labour's Faustian Pact with Tories'
... Even more damagingly, Darling was seen to act as an apologist for NHS privatisation in England, for welfare cuts aimed at the disabled, and for policies that will increase child poverty.
There's a strong argument to be made that the biggest beneficiary of these gaffes was not Alex Salmond, or the SNP, or even the Green party, but rather the Labour for Independence group, which has just had their case made for them – namely that independence is now the only conceivable hope for a return to true Labour values.
After all, why is it that Labour rejected McLeish's advice, and failed to set up a non-Tory No campaign?
... for the very first time, they're gradually starting to realise that different rules apply when they're dealing with a Scotland-only electorate, and that being too right-wing and London-centric can lose elections (and referendums) too. In a sense, that's exactly what independence is all about.
IF the metropolitan police was institutionally racist according to McPhersobn, then you could very well argue that Rotherham council was also institutionally racist.
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
What other motive could there be, Mr. Watcher? If given a choice between doing something about a difficult issue that may lose votes (though how making sure children in care aren't raped is a difficult decision or could lose votes I am not sure) and deferring a decision then most politicians will be kicking whatever it is in to the long grass or the can down the road or whatever metaphor you want to use. And what a splendid vehicle a full, independent, judge-led inquiry is - it will take years during which all questions on the subject can be ducked. If managed successfully (e.g. Chilcot) it can be strung out for so long that all involved have retired long before it reports.
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
What other motive could there be, Mr. Watcher? If given a choice between doing something about a difficult issue that may lose votes (though how making sure children in care aren't raped is a difficult decision or could lose votes I am not sure) and deferring a decision then most politicians will be kicking whatever it is in to the long grass or the can down the road or whatever metaphor you want to use. And what a splendid vehicle a full, independent, judge-led inquiry is - it will take years during which all questions on the subject can be ducked. If managed successfully (e.g. Chilcot) it can be strung out for so long that all involved have retired long before it reports.
We should have a rule that every inquiry should reduce MPs pay by 5% since they can't be arsed to do their job themselves.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
Staggering we're discussing extra 'training'. Who the **** needs training to realise raping kids is a serious crime?
The training presumably, addresses the skills needed to balance the severity of a crime against the ethnicity of the perpetrator and to disregard the latter if the former is severe enough.
No - not if the latter is severe enough. The ethnicity of the alleged perpetrator should be ignored. An allegation of a crime against a child should be investigated regardless.
We cannot and should not soft soap alleged crimes because that might harm vested interests or powerful people or embarrass particular groups, and that should apply whether we're talking about banks or politicians or people coming from a particular community. "Equality under the law" and all that.
I agree, but baby steps. Clearly the local plod have absorbed the racial conditioning rather too well. The shock of telling them to stop doing so could be hard for them to handle.
They could maybe start by looking the other way only if it's minor, such as shoplifting or postal voting fraud. You know, ease them into it. Turning an oil tanker.
I can tell you now that in my village/small town the people who are cheering for UKIP are as much in the families on the Council Estate as they are in the three-bedroomed semis
They just tell you that to get rid of you.
Well, somebody's voting for UKIP in large numbers.
Not unless the election is trivial, like the euros. Neil Kinnock made the same mistake. Not an example you want to emulate.
''Is anyone in any doubt that if this had been bunch of white thugs sexually abusing black girls, ethnicity would never have been mentioned?''
The perpetrators are not the issue. The issue is that they were allowed to get away with these crimes because of their race and creed by the authorities.
The policies of the labour party in the first decade of the 21st century are the reason why these crimes went on unchecked.
We don't know why the perpetrators were allowed to get away with it. It is possible, for instance, that the perpetrators were connected to senior people in the police and so they got away with it because of sheer criminal collusion. It is possible that the police simply did not think of the victims as victims and so didn't bother following up. It is possible that people didn't want to point out the racial/cultural factor because of a fear of the "racist" card being played. Or it is possible that it was a combination of all or some of these or other factors I've not mentioned.
I do think we have been cowardly in not confronting the very regressive view that certain communities have of women and challenging this. And that certainly needs to change.
But let's face it: no nationality/race has a monopoly on criminality. So let's not assume that people of Pakistani-descent are somehow uniquely evil or the only people in Britain who are guilty of child abuse. That's as idiotic as those who looked the other way in Rotherham.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
'Scottish Independence: Darling's Thrashing Proves Folly of Labour's Faustian Pact with Tories'
... Even more damagingly, Darling was seen to act as an apologist for NHS privatisation in England, for welfare cuts aimed at the disabled, and for policies that will increase child poverty.
There's a strong argument to be made that the biggest beneficiary of these gaffes was not Alex Salmond, or the SNP, or even the Green party, but rather the Labour for Independence group, which has just had their case made for them – namely that independence is now the only conceivable hope for a return to true Labour values.
After all, why is it that Labour rejected McLeish's advice, and failed to set up a non-Tory No campaign?
... for the very first time, they're gradually starting to realise that different rules apply when they're dealing with a Scotland-only electorate, and that being too right-wing and London-centric can lose elections (and referendums) too. In a sense, that's exactly what independence is all about.
Rob Ford (England) (@robfordmancs) 26/08/2014 16:03 If #UKIP gain Rotherham, Labour have only themselves to blame. Systematic and disgraceful failings by council: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…
'Scottish Independence: Darling's Thrashing Proves Folly of Labour's Faustian Pact with Tories'
... Even more damagingly, Darling was seen to act as an apologist for NHS privatisation in England, for welfare cuts aimed at the disabled, and for policies that will increase child poverty.
There's a strong argument to be made that the biggest beneficiary of these gaffes was not Alex Salmond, or the SNP, or even the Green party, but rather the Labour for Independence group, which has just had their case made for them – namely that independence is now the only conceivable hope for a return to true Labour values.
After all, why is it that Labour rejected McLeish's advice, and failed to set up a non-Tory No campaign?
... for the very first time, they're gradually starting to realise that different rules apply when they're dealing with a Scotland-only electorate, and that being too right-wing and London-centric can lose elections (and referendums) too. In a sense, that's exactly what independence is all about.
Perpetrators of these dreadful crimes should never have been labelled by race, religion or any other label... They should have been treated as criminal suspects and subject to robust investigation, prosecution and conviction...
The victims should never have been labelled by race, class, from broken homes or anything else... They should have been treated as individuals deserving of the full protection of the authorities...
And the response now shouldn't be to reinforce stereotypes and seek affirmation of ones prejudices. It should be to demand even this late an effective, unprejudiced criminal investigation of all involved in Rotherham and elsewhere...
Posting clips of Enoch Powell and blaming immigration per se is self serving and does nothing to deal with what is dreadful criminality.
Well the perpetrators were all of one race and religion, a race and religion that wasn't shared with the victims... Like it or not it's a factor
Immigration per se isn't to blame, it's mass immigration
In what way is it a factor? Does the race or religion of the perpetrators and victims determine whether criminal acts have or haven't been committed?
Don't people get heavier sentences for racially motivated attacks?
On some offences, yes... But that does not detract from my point: that a focus on race and religion, rather than criminality has compromised what should have happened in Rotherham - and that those who now focus on race and religion in their haste to justify their own prejudices are not part of the solution... Cool, unemotional, hard pursuit of those responsible is what the victims deserve.
We don't know why the perpetrators were allowed to get away with it.
Er....I think we do, judging from the report and the comments of those involved
The perpetrators got away with it because those in authority were prepared to ignore the rule of law. They were prepared to ignore the rule of law because they were scared of applying it against the pakistani muslim community.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country.
Yes but they're 94% of the population or whatever.
The issue is when 4% of the population is doing 100% of the grooming.
As was posted downthread, there are 1,400 victims on one town alone, of 260,000. But 130,000 (50%) are men and 3% are Pakistani, so that's 3,900 males abusing 1,400 girls. But wait again, assuming even distribution of age and life expectancy of 78, there are only 50 Asian males of any given age in Rotherham.
If the perps are all between 20 and 60, then a demographic of at most 2,000 Asian males has abused 1,400 girls. If each offender abused 7 unique victims, then 200 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers. If each abused 3 unique victims then 450 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers.
That's a minority, but a huge one. Imagine walking through Rotherham knowing that every tenth, or every fourth Asian male you see is a serial sex criminal.
Perpetrators of these dreadful crimes should never have been labelled by race, religion or any other label... They should have been treated as criminal suspects and subject to robust investigation, prosecution and conviction...
The victims should never have been labelled by race, class, from broken homes or anything else... They should have been treated as individuals deserving of the full protection of the authorities...
And the response now shouldn't be to reinforce stereotypes and seek affirmation of ones prejudices. It should be to demand even this late an effective, unprejudiced criminal investigation of all involved in Rotherham and elsewhere...
Posting clips of Enoch Powell and blaming immigration per se is self serving and does nothing to deal with what is dreadful criminality.
Well the perpetrators were all of one race and religion, a race and religion that wasn't shared with the victims... Like it or not it's a factor
Immigration per se isn't to blame, it's mass immigration
In what way is it a factor? Does the race or religion of the perpetrators and victims determine whether criminal acts have or haven't been committed?
No - but it may explain the motivation of the perpetrators. Any inquiry - and I speak as a professional investigator - should look at possible motivation.
Also the cultural factor (e.g. an attitude to women) may have a bearing not just on the motivation of the perpetrators but also on why there was a reluctance to investigate by those authorities who were informed of the problem. That too needs looking at because, almost as bad as the crimes themselves, were the apparent cover-ups and/or turning of blind eyes.
But as you rightly said there should be a full scale criminal inquiry and whoever has committed a crime should be prosecuted. And those who failed in their duties of investigation and protection should be disciplined and, where appropriate, prosecuted - without fear or favour or regard to ethnicities or religion or anything else.
Thank you for expressing what I was trying to say only more effectively
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
It occurred to me very clearly that if HMG had been doing its job properly the rapes, the murders, the cashpoint frauds, the double parking and the fly-tiping might not have happened in the first place.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
Rob Ford (England) (@robfordmancs) 26/08/2014 16:03 If #UKIP gain Rotherham, Labour have only themselves to blame. Systematic and disgraceful failings by council: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…
From where the parties finished after the 2012 by election (held after Gabble was put in prison) you have to say this could be UKIP's best chance of gain?
The perpetrators got away with it because there isn't a community any more. In part this is due to immigration stretching the ability of communities to adjust and embrace change. In part too it's because it's not clear what we might expect from our fellow citizens now.
Rob Ford (England) (@robfordmancs) 26/08/2014 16:03 If #UKIP gain Rotherham, Labour have only themselves to blame. Systematic and disgraceful failings by council: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…
From where the parties finished after the 2012 by election (held after Gabble was put in prison) you have to say this could be UKIP's best chance of gain?
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country.
Yes but they're 94% of the population or whatever.
The issue is when 4% of the population is doing 100% of the grooming.
As was posted downthread, there are 1,400 victims on one town alone, of 260,000. But 130,000 are men and 3% are Pakistani so that's 3,900 males abusing 1,400 girls. But wait again, assuming even distribution of age and life expectancy of 78 there are only 50 Asian males of any given age in Rotherham.
If the perps are all between 20 and 60, then a demographic of at most 2,000 Asian males has abused 1,400 girls. If each offender abused 7 unique victims then 200 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers. That's a minority, but a huge one. Imagine walking through Rotherham knowing that every tenth Asian male you see is a serial sex criminal.
But in the country as a whole you will find, probably, and without getting my slide rule out, that the percentages normalise.
I agree in Rotherham it was a particular problem but if you take east end villains and bank jobs in the East End or, perhaps more topically, cashpoint crimes and certain eastern-european demographics, then you can likewise spin scare stories.
Not that this shouldn't be taken seriously, nor that there seems to have been a serious failing by several of the authorities involved, nor finally that I think the whole multi-culti diversity gig has been successful.
But it is only if we see this within a sensible and proper perspective that people will not be subject, ironically, to the charge of scare-mongering or racism.
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
What other motive could there be, Mr. Watcher? If given a choice between doing something about a difficult issue that may lose votes (though how making sure children in care aren't raped is a difficult decision or could lose votes I am not sure) and deferring a decision then most politicians will be kicking whatever it is in to the long grass or the can down the road or whatever metaphor you want to use. And what a splendid vehicle a full, independent, judge-led inquiry is - it will take years during which all questions on the subject can be ducked. If managed successfully (e.g. Chilcot) it can be strung out for so long that all involved have retired long before it reports.
We should have a rule that every inquiry should reduce MPs pay by 5% since they can't be arsed to do their job themselves.
Well, quite, Mr. Brooke. In the same way that MPs salaries should be reduced for not giving consideration to legislation from the EU. The Lisbon Treaty, for all its many faults, did actually include a process whereby a national parliament could say, "No, Stop, Think Again" in the face of a proposal from the EU. It isn't a particularly good process and the timescales are tight but have you ever heard of our Parliament even trying to use it?
If MPs salaries were reduced to those of a social worker we might be getting down to something like their true worth.
Rob Ford (England) (@robfordmancs) 26/08/2014 16:03 If #UKIP gain Rotherham, Labour have only themselves to blame. Systematic and disgraceful failings by council: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…
From where the parties finished after the 2012 by election (held after Gabble was put in prison) you have to say this could be UKIP's best chance of gain?
Was Macshane definitely Gabble, then?
No, he wasn't.
Gabble might end up suing if people repeat that allegation,
Isn't the difference here that the victims were targeted because they were a particular colour and they weren't a particular religion?
That may well be the case, but I genuinely think this issue is a separate one, and it doesn't help to deal with it right now.
This is a case chiefly about what is turning into huge failure of the rule of law in Britain. It is my contention that the rule of law was subverted IN THIS CASE chiefly because the labour government's policy.
You can pursue the case workers and the police if you want, but it was more powerful forces higher up than them that really caused these events to occur.
We don't know why the perpetrators were allowed to get away with it.
Er....I think we do, judging from the report and the comments of those involved
The perpetrators got away with it because those in authority were prepared to ignore the rule of law. They were prepared to ignore the rule of law because they were scared of applying it against the pakistani muslim community.
Does the report actually say that? That the police did not investigate the crimes because they were scared of investigating crimes done by people of Pakistani-descent.
Rob Ford (England) (@robfordmancs) 26/08/2014 16:03 If #UKIP gain Rotherham, Labour have only themselves to blame. Systematic and disgraceful failings by council: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…
From where the parties finished after the 2012 by election (held after Gabble was put in prison) you have to say this could be UKIP's best chance of gain?
Was Macshane definitely Gabble, then?
Don't know, but after all that "broken, sleazy stuff" it would be funny if he was wouldn't it? :^O
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
What other motive could there be, Mr. Watcher? If given a choice between doing something about a difficult issue that may lose votes (though how making sure children in care aren't raped is a difficult decision or could lose votes I am not sure) and deferring a decision then most politicians will be kicking whatever it is in to the long grass or the can down the road or whatever metaphor you want to use. And what a splendid vehicle a full, independent, judge-led inquiry is - it will take years during which all questions on the subject can be ducked. If managed successfully (e.g. Chilcot) it can be strung out for so long that all involved have retired long before it reports.
We should have a rule that every inquiry should reduce MPs pay by 5% since they can't be arsed to do their job themselves.
Well, quite, Mr. Brooke. In the same way that MPs salaries should be reduced for not giving consideration to legislation from the EU. The Lisbon Treaty, for all its many faults, did actually include a process whereby a national parliament could say, "No, Stop, Think Again" in the face of a proposal from the EU. It isn't a particularly good process and the timescales are tight but have you ever heard of our Parliament even trying to use it?
If MPs salaries were reduced to those of a social worker we might be getting down to something like their true worth.
Tangentially off-topic, the issue of MPs' remuneration is unsolvable for the Tories. For, say, a WWC shop steward the current MP's salary is not quite riches beyond compare but is extremely attractive. For a would be or existing doctor or lawyer or head teacher, however, it is derisory.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
It occurred to me very clearly that if HMG had been doing its job properly the rapes, the murders, the cashpoint frauds, the double parking and the fly-tiping might not have happened in the first place.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
Right so your view is knee jerk reaction is bad and people should reflect and take due consideration on child rape ?
'Scottish Independence: Darling's Thrashing Proves Folly of Labour's Faustian Pact with Tories'
... Even more damagingly, Darling was seen to act as an apologist for NHS privatisation in England, for welfare cuts aimed at the disabled, and for policies that will increase child poverty.
There's a strong argument to be made that the biggest beneficiary of these gaffes was not Alex Salmond, or the SNP, or even the Green party, but rather the Labour for Independence group, which has just had their case made for them – namely that independence is now the only conceivable hope for a return to true Labour values.
After all, why is it that Labour rejected McLeish's advice, and failed to set up a non-Tory No campaign?
... for the very first time, they're gradually starting to realise that different rules apply when they're dealing with a Scotland-only electorate, and that being too right-wing and London-centric can lose elections (and referendums) too. In a sense, that's exactly what independence is all about.
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
What other motive could there be, Mr. Watcher? If given a choice between doing something about a difficult issue that may lose votes (though how making sure children in care aren't raped is a difficult decision or could lose votes I am not sure) and deferring a decision then most politicians will be kicking whatever it is in to the long grass or the can down the road or whatever metaphor you want to use. And what a splendid vehicle a full, independent, judge-led inquiry is - it will take years during which all questions on the subject can be ducked. If managed successfully (e.g. Chilcot) it can be strung out for so long that all involved have retired long before it reports.
We should have a rule that every inquiry should reduce MPs pay by 5% since they can't be arsed to do their job themselves.
Well, quite, Mr. Brooke. In the same way that MPs salaries should be reduced for not giving consideration to legislation from the EU. The Lisbon Treaty, for all its many faults, did actually include a process whereby a national parliament could say, "No, Stop, Think Again" in the face of a proposal from the EU. It isn't a particularly good process and the timescales are tight but have you ever heard of our Parliament even trying to use it?
If MPs salaries were reduced to those of a social worker we might be getting down to something like their true worth.
Tangentially off-topic, the issue of MPs' remuneration is unsolvable for the Tories. For, say, a WWC shop steward the current MP's salary is not quite riches beyond compare but is extremely attractive. For a would be or existing doctor or lawyer or head teacher, however, it is derisory.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
then they should stop contesting elections. Voters don't elect politicians to say wibble.
What are all these hard decisions HMG's meant to be taking ? If they can't set a simple salary how will they run a Civil Service with 5 million employees ?
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
It occurred to me very clearly that if HMG had been doing its job properly the rapes, the murders, the cashpoint frauds, the double parking and the fly-tiping might not have happened in the first place.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
Right so your view is knee jerk reaction is bad and people should reflect and take due consideration on child rape ?
Would that involve extra training ?
Yes my view is that knee jerk reaction is wrong. A considered and thought-out reaction is no less valid and might arrive at the same conclusion as a knee-jerk one and is probably how better laws are made and a better country created.
If you want the laws to be made immediately in response to every event that transpires then you are in for a bumpy ride.
'Scottish Independence: Darling's Thrashing Proves Folly of Labour's Faustian Pact with Tories'
... Even more damagingly, Darling was seen to act as an apologist for NHS privatisation in England, for welfare cuts aimed at the disabled, and for policies that will increase child poverty.
There's a strong argument to be made that the biggest beneficiary of these gaffes was not Alex Salmond, or the SNP, or even the Green party, but rather the Labour for Independence group, which has just had their case made for them – namely that independence is now the only conceivable hope for a return to true Labour values.
After all, why is it that Labour rejected McLeish's advice, and failed to set up a non-Tory No campaign?
... for the very first time, they're gradually starting to realise that different rules apply when they're dealing with a Scotland-only electorate, and that being too right-wing and London-centric can lose elections (and referendums) too. In a sense, that's exactly what independence is all about.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country.
Yes but they're 94% of the population or whatever.
The issue is when 4% of the population is doing 100% of the grooming.
As was posted downthread, there are 1,400 victims on one town alone, of 260,000. But 130,000 (50%) are men and 3% are Pakistani, so that's 3,900 males abusing 1,400 girls. But wait again, assuming even distribution of age and life expectancy of 78, there are only 50 Asian males of any given age in Rotherham.
If the perps are all between 20 and 60, then a demographic of at most 2,000 Asian males has abused 1,400 girls. If each offender abused 7 unique victims, then 200 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers. If each abused 3 unique victims then 450 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers.
That's a minority, but a huge one. Imagine walking through Rotherham knowing that every tenth, or every fourth Asian male you see is a serial sex criminal.
It's chilling.
That assumes all the abusers were Rotherham residents. However, even if only half of them were, it's still a high percentage.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country.
Yes but they're 94% of the population or whatever.
The issue is when 4% of the population is doing 100% of the grooming.
As was posted downthread, there are 1,400 victims on one town alone, of 260,000. But 130,000 (50%) are men and 3% are Pakistani, so that's 3,900 males abusing 1,400 girls. But wait again, assuming even distribution of age and life expectancy of 78, there are only 50 Asian males of any given age in Rotherham.
If the perps are all between 20 and 60, then a demographic of at most 2,000 Asian males has abused 1,400 girls. If each offender abused 7 unique victims, then 200 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers. If each abused 3 unique victims then 450 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers.
That's a minority, but a huge one. Imagine walking through Rotherham knowing that every tenth, or every fourth Asian male you see is a serial sex criminal.
It's chilling.
Why would offenders limit themselves to 3 or 7 unique victims? It seems a curious bit of moderation in otherwise not very moderate people. Jimmy Savile could have done this lot single-handed and with time to spare. So you would only walk through Rotherham "knowing" that because of an erroneous premise. Things look bad, but let's not make them look worse than they are.
A BUOYANT Alex Salmond has issued calls for an 11th hour live TV showdown with Prime Minister David Cameron after polls suggested he got the better of Alistair Darling in last night’s BBC debate.
The First Minister also branded Mr Darling a “Tory front man” and claimed the ex-Chancellor “muffed it” in last night’s clash.
... “Alistair Darling is a front man for the Conservative party in this campaign,” Mr Salmond said.
“Alistair Darling is in alliance with the Conservative party in this campaign - that is what the No campaign is. Now that Alistair Darling is taking part in no further debates, let’s have the real leader of the No campaign, David Cameron, let’s have him in Scotland now.
“Let’s see if he can do any better than Alistair Darling did - I don’t think he will.”
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
t, judge-led inquiry is - it will take years during which all questions on the subject can be ducked. If managed successfully (e.g. Chilcot) it can be strung out for so long that all involved have retired long before it reports.
We should have a rule that every inquiry should reduce MPs pay by 5% since they can't be arsed to do their job themselves.
Well, quite, Mr. Brooke. In the same way that MPs salaries should be reduced for not giving consideration to legislation from the EU. The Lisbon Treaty, for all its many faults, did actually include a process whereby a national parliament could say, "No, Stop, Think Again" in the face of a proposal from the EU. It isn't a particularly good process and the timescales are tight but have you ever heard of our Parliament even trying to use it?
If MPs salaries were reduced to those of a social worker we might be getting down to something like their true worth.
Tangentially off-topic, the issue of MPs' remuneration is unsolvable for the Tories. For, say, a WWC shop steward the current MP's salary is not quite riches beyond compare but is extremely attractive. For a would be or existing doctor or lawyer or head teacher, however, it is derisory.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
then they should stop contesting elections. Voters don't elect politicians to say wibble.
What are all these hard decisions HMG's meant to be taking ? If they can't set a simple salary how will they run a Civil Service with 5 million employees ?
Are you having an off day, Alan? Or an on day with plenty of Whiskey?
I am having to repeat my fairly jejune posts to you saying the same thing in a different way because you seem unable to grasp the points I am making. It is unlike you to be so wilfully obtuse.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
It occurred to me very clearly that if HMG had been doing its job properly the rapes, the murders, the cashpoint frauds, the double parking and the fly-tiping might not have happened in the first place.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
Right so your view is knee jerk reaction is bad and people should reflect and take due consideration on child rape ?
Would that involve extra training ?
Yes my view is that knee jerk reaction is wrong. A considered and thought-out reaction is no less valid and might arrive at the same conclusion as a knee-jerk one and is probably how better laws are made and a better country created.
If you want the laws to be made immediately in response to every event that transpires then you are in for a bumpy ride.
maybe but your way of expressing it is crass, if it was your kids suffering would you feel the same ? Instead of blaming the victims maybe you should direct your fire at those with a duty of care and ask why they failed ?
A BUOYANT Alex Salmond has issued calls for an 11th hour live TV showdown with Prime Minister David Cameron after polls suggested he got the better of Alistair Darling in last night’s BBC debate.
The First Minister also branded Mr Darling a “Tory front man” and claimed the ex-Chancellor “muffed it” in last night’s clash.
... “Alistair Darling is a front man for the Conservative party in this campaign,” Mr Salmond said.
“Alistair Darling is in alliance with the Conservative party in this campaign - that is what the No campaign is. Now that Alistair Darling is taking part in no further debates, let’s have the real leader of the No campaign, David Cameron, let’s have him in Scotland now.
“Let’s see if he can do any better than Alistair Darling did - I don’t think he will.”
"Yvette Cooper is asking for the inquiry into child abuse to be set up "
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
Kicking it into the long grass?
t, judge-led inquiry is - it will take years during which all questions on the subject can be ducked. If managed successfully (e.g. Chilcot) it can be strung out for so long that all involved have retired long before it reports.
We should have a rule that every inquiry should reduce MPs pay by 5% since they can't be arsed to do their job themselves.
Well, quite, Mr. Brooke. In the same way that MPs salaries should be reduced for not giving consideration to legislation from the EU. The Lisbon Treaty, for all its many faults, did actually include a process whereby a national parliament could say, "No, Stop, Think Again" in the face of a proposal from the EU. It isn't a particularly good process and the timescales are tight but have you ever heard of our Parliament even trying to use it?
If MPs salaries were reduced to those of a social worker we might be getting down to something like their true worth.
Tangentially off-topic, the issue of MPs' remuneration is unsolvable for the Tories. For, say, a WWC shop steward the current MP's salary is not quite riches beyond compare but is extremely attractive. For a would be or existing doctor or lawyer or head teacher, however, it is derisory.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
then they should stop contesting elections. Voters don't elect politicians to say wibble.
What are all these hard decisions HMG's meant to be taking ? If they can't set a simple salary how will they run a Civil Service with 5 million employees ?
Are you having an off day, Alan? Or an on day with plenty of Whiskey?
I am having to repeat my fairly jejune posts to you saying the same thing in a different way because you seem unable to grasp the points I am making. It is unlike you to be so wilfully obtuse.
I'm assuming Flightpath has reported sick and you've got the silly tory things to say slot for the evening.
The perpetrators got away with it because there isn't a community any more.
With respect, That is not correct. It is not the community's job to apprehend and prosecute serious criminals. That is the job of the authorities.
It's not the whole story, but surely you agree it's part of it? The authorities are an arm of the community - if the community can't gel such that there are social norms then it's hard for the authorities to do their job.
The perpetrators got away with it because there isn't a community any more.
With respect, That is not correct. It is not the community's job to apprehend and prosecute serious criminals. That is the job of the authorities.
It's not the whole story, but surely you agree it's part of it? The authorities are an arm of the community - if the community can't gel such that there are social norms then it's hard for the authorities to do their job.
and yet the same authotities found the ability to intervene in a fostering case because they didn;t like the couple's politics.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
It occurred to me very clearly that if HMG had been doing its job properly the rapes, the murders, the cashpoint frauds, the double parking and the fly-tiping might not have happened in the first place.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
Right so your view is knee jerk reaction is bad and people should reflect and take due consideration on child rape ?
Would that involve extra training ?
Yes my view is that knee jerk reaction is wrong. A considered and thought-out reaction is no less valid and might arrive at the same conclusion as a knee-jerk one and is probably how better laws are made and a better country created.
If you want the laws to be made immediately in response to every event that transpires then you are in for a bumpy ride.
maybe but your way of expressing it is crass, if it was your kids suffering would you feel the same ? Instead of blaming the victims maybe you should direct your fire at those with a duty of care and ask why they failed ?
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
It occurred to me very clearly that if HMG had been doing its job properly the rapes, the murders, the cashpoint frauds, the double parking and the fly-tiping might not have happened in the first place.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
Right so your view is knee jerk reaction is bad and people should reflect and take due consideration on child rape ?
Would that involve extra training ?
Yes my view is that knee jerk reaction is wrong. A considered and thought-out reaction is no less valid and might arrive at the same conclusion as a knee-jerk one and is probably how better laws are made and a better country created.
If you want the laws to be made immediately in response to every event that transpires then you are in for a bumpy ride.
We don't need any new laws, we just need the ones we have to be enforced. The idea of a knee-jerk reaction is complete tosh except as it applies to the police. "This child reported being raped, why the f*ck did they do nothing about it?" That's a knee-jerk reaction and one that would appear to be totally acceptable in the circumstances.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. Tars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situatio sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
So people having their kids raped shouldn't vote for someone you don't like ?
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
It occurred to me very clearly that if HMG had been doing its job properly the rapes, the murders, the cashpoint frauds, the double parking and the fly-tiping might not have happened in the first place.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
Right so your view is knee jerk reaction is bad and people should reflect and take due consideration on child rape ?
Would that involve extra training ?
Yes my view is that knee jerk reaction is wrong. A considered and thought-out reaction is no less valid and might arrive at the same conclusion as a knee-jerk one and is probably how better laws are made and a better country created.
If you want the laws to be made immediately in response to every event that transpires then you are in for a bumpy ride.
maybe but your way of expressing it is crass, if it was your kids suffering would you feel the same ? Instead of blaming the victims maybe you should direct your fire at those with a duty of care and ask why they failed ?
The Sun Says....
put the bottle down, Alan.
stone cold sober atm
maybe I should start drinking if only to make some of the posts less objectionable.
If you can't see that not taking action pushes people to the extremes you dislike then there is no hope.
"The Deputy Council Leader (2011-2014) from the Pakistani-heritage community was clear that he had not understood the scale of the CSE problem in Rotherham until 2013. He then disagreed with colleague elected members on the way to approach it. He had advocated taking the issue 'head on' but had been overruled. He was one of the elected members who said they thought the criminal- 94 - convictions in 2010 were 'a one-off, isolated case', and not an example of a more deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls. This was at best naïve, and at worst ignoring a politically inconvenient truth."
How much damage must be inflicted from the "it's a tiny minority" myth for us to get the message?
What message, Socrates?
That there are culturally noxious views deep-rooted across wide swathes of the Muslim community in this country, and they need to be forcefully confronted and rooted out.
There is no doubt in my mind that these vile men exploited a climate of political correctness to commit their disgusting crimes and that political correctness played a large part in allowing them to get away with it for so long. Undoubtedly, it has happened elsewhere too. Whether we on the left like it or not, we helped to create that environment - either directly by promoting it and brooking no argument or by not doing enough to counter it. If that means Labour councils and MPs being voted out of power, so be it. They will deserve what they get. Additionally, there does seem to be a train of thought in some moslem communities in this country which excuses or even condones predatory sexual behaviour, rape and forced prostitution just so long as the girls/women concerned are not themselves from those communities. That is repulsive. Again, it does no-one any good to deny it.
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
There is no doubt in my mind that these vile men exploited a climate of political correctness to commit their disgusting crimes and that political correctness played a large part in allowing them to get away with it for so long. Undoubtedly, it has happened elsewhere too. Whether we on the left like it or not, we helped to create that environment - either directly by promoting it and brooking no argument or by not doing enough to counter it. If that means Labour councils and MPs being voted out of power, so be it. They will deserve what they get. Additionally, there does seem to be a train of thought in some moslem communities in this country which excuses or even condones predatory sexual behaviour, rape and forced prostitution just so long as the girls/women concerned are not themselves from those communities. That is repulsive. Again, it does no-one any good to deny it.
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
There is no doubt in my mind that these vile men exploited a climate of political correctness to commit their disgusting crimes and that political correctness played a large part in allowing them to get away with it for so long. Undoubtedly, it has happened elsewhere too. Whether we on the left like it or not, we helped to create that environment - either directly by promoting it and brooking no argument or by not doing enough to counter it. If that means Labour councils and MPs being voted out of power, so be it. They will deserve what they get. Additionally, there does seem to be a train of thought in some moslem communities in this country which excuses or even condones predatory sexual behaviour, rape and forced prostitution just so long as the girls/women concerned are not themselves from those communities. That is repulsive. Again, it does no-one any good to deny it.
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
She was associating with a group of older Asian men and possibly taking drugs. She disclosed having had intercourse with five adults. Two of the adults received police cautions after admitting to the Police that they had intercourse with Child A. Child A continued to go missing and was at high risk of sexual exploitation. A child protection case conference was held. It was agreed by all at the conference that Child A should be registered. However, the CID (criminal investigation department) representative argued against the category of sexual abuse being used because he thought that Child A had been ‘100% consensual in every incident’.
When a copper joins up they take an oath, that oath is the basis of all their power. According to Herslef it has been watered down from the one she took, but it still reads,
"I, ... of ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law."
Anything in there about ignoring complaints of rape because of the danger to community cohesion?
There is no doubt in my mind that these vile men exploited a climate of political correctness to commit their disgusting crimes and that political correctness played a large part in allowing them to get away with it for so long. Undoubtedly, it has happened elsewhere too. Whether we on the left like it or not, we helped to create that environment - either directly by promoting it and brooking no argument or by not doing enough to counter it. If that means Labour councils and MPs being voted out of power, so be it. They will deserve what they get. Additionally, there does seem to be a train of thought in some moslem communities in this country which excuses or even condones predatory sexual behaviour, rape and forced prostitution just so long as the girls/women concerned are not themselves from those communities. That is repulsive. Again, it does no-one any good to deny it.
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
Good post.
I know we probably disagree more than we agree, but I hope you're back soon.
There is no doubt in my mind that these vile men exploited a climate of political correctness to commit their disgusting crimes and that political correctness played a large part in allowing them to get away with it for so long. Undoubtedly, it has happened elsewhere too. Whether we on the left like it or not, we helped to create that environment - either directly by promoting it and brooking no argument or by not doing enough to counter it. If that means Labour councils and MPs being voted out of power, so be it. They will deserve what they get. Additionally, there does seem to be a train of thought in some moslem communities in this country which excuses or even condones predatory sexual behaviour, rape and forced prostitution just so long as the girls/women concerned are not themselves from those communities. That is repulsive. Again, it does no-one any good to deny it.
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
So long, Mr. Observer, and I for one will be looking forward to our return to these pages. Whilst you are away maybe you might want to meditate on the power of individual responsibility. Whether as CEO of a multi-national, or a cleaner in a McDonalds, are we all not individually responsible for what we do?
There is no doubt in my mind that these vile men exploited a climate of political correctness to commit their disgusting crimes and that political correctness played a large part in allowing them to get away with it for so long. Undoubtedly, it has happened elsewhere too. Whether we on the left like it or not, we helped to create that environment - either directly by promoting it and brooking no argument or by not doing enough to counter it. If that means Labour councils and MPs being voted out of power, so be it. They will deserve what they get. Additionally, there does seem to be a train of thought in some moslem communities in this country which excuses or even condones predatory sexual behaviour, rape and forced prostitution just so long as the girls/women concerned are not themselves from those communities. That is repulsive. Again, it does no-one any good to deny it.
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
Could South yorks police eagerness to get on Cliff Richards case be explained by the fact they knew they were in for a pasting this week?
Is @Roger putting steroids in his champers since his return? Seems unusually aggressive, and stupid
I'd hope everyone who is horrified and stunned by today's report would back the police investigating all claims of abuse, whether it points to Muslims, the Catholic Church / CofE and associated organisations, the BBC, politicians, celebrities, or any one of us.
Could South yorks police eagerness to get on Cliff Richards case be explained by the fact they knew they were in for a pasting this week?
Is @Roger putting steroids in his champers since his return? Seems unusually aggressive, and stupid
I'd hope everyone who is horrified and stunned by today's report would back the police investigating all claims of abuse, whether it points to Muslims, the Catholic Church / CofE and associated organisations, the BBC, politicians, celebrities, or any one of us.
Personally I would want them to use their limited resources wisely to pursue the greatest good for the greatest number.
'Scottish Independence: Darling's Thrashing Proves Folly of Labour's Faustian Pact with Tories'
... Even more damagingly, Darling was seen to act as an apologist for NHS privatisation in England, for welfare cuts aimed at the disabled, and for policies that will increase child poverty.
There's a strong argument to be made that the biggest beneficiary of these gaffes was not Alex Salmond, or the SNP, or even the Green party, but rather the Labour for Independence group, which has just had their case made for them – namely that independence is now the only conceivable hope for a return to true Labour values.
After all, why is it that Labour rejected McLeish's advice, and failed to set up a non-Tory No campaign?
... for the very first time, they're gradually starting to realise that different rules apply when they're dealing with a Scotland-only electorate, and that being too right-wing and London-centric can lose elections (and referendums) too. In a sense, that's exactly what independence is all about.
Evening all. Having been grass cutting for much of the evening, I have only briefly heard about the Rotherham situation. Without knowing who is/may be to blame, I admire the fact that the (presumably Labour) leader of the local council has taken the decision to resign and accept the blame for failings of his council. That is how honourable politicians used to act.
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. ...I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
Just ignore the frothers - it's what I do.
The fewer interesting people post on here, the less fun it becomes.
Personally I'm waiting for 19th Sept when @alanbrooke stops yanking @malcolmg's chain and starts pointing anti-Osborne diatribes again
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. ...I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
Just ignore the frothers - it's what I do.
The fewer interesting people post on here, the less fun it becomes.
Personally I'm waiting for 19th Sept when @alanbrooke stops yanking @malcolmg's chain and starts pointing anti-Osborne diatribes again
Seems like an opportune time to question the wisdom in these straightened times of spending £6 million guarding the Ecuadorian Embassy to make sure Julian Assange doesn't make his escape. The crime that Assange is alleged to have committed (and if it happened I agree it's a crime) is of initiating intercourse with someone whilst they slept (they had already had sex that night). Disgusting behaviour and, undoubtedly a crime, but worth six million?
There is no doubt in my mind that these vile men exploited a climate of political correctness to commit their disgusting crimes and that political correctness played a large part in allowing them to get away with it for so long. Undoubtedly, it has happened elsewhere too. Whether we on the left like it or not, we helped to create that environment - either directly by promoting it and brooking no argument or by not doing enough to counter it. If that means Labour councils and MPs being voted out of power, so be it. They will deserve what they get. Additionally, there does seem to be a train of thought in some moslem communities in this country which excuses or even condones predatory sexual behaviour, rape and forced prostitution just so long as the girls/women concerned are not themselves from those communities. That is repulsive. Again, it does no-one any good to deny it.
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
Truth hurt?
Unfair
Why? He has said that the left is complicit then gets upset when groups such as the Labour Party and the BBC are blamed, or abused as he claims. I think it's the victims that were abused, not the institutions he mentioned.
All those guilty of covering this disgusting stuff up should be blamed, including those groups who constantly play the race card to stifle debate. That would include the BBC, the Labour Party and many others, all crippled by political correctness.
It seems the do gooders have done bad, very bad and I hope they can now admit their mistakes.
I'm sorry if SO feels he have to leave for a while, but the truly sickening posts are the ones that Socrates suffered, not random posts that merely point out the reality of what has gone on.
Could South yorks police eagerness to get on Cliff Richards case be explained by the fact they knew they were in for a pasting this week?
Is @Roger putting steroids in his champers since his return? Seems unusually aggressive, and stupid
I'd hope everyone who is horrified and stunned by today's report would back the police investigating all claims of abuse, whether it points to Muslims, the Catholic Church / CofE and associated organisations, the BBC, politicians, celebrities, or any one of us.
Personally I would want them to use their limited resources wisely to pursue the greatest good for the greatest number.
How do they know what 'the greatest good' is in an ongoing investigation? How would such a concept apply to (say) Saville's crimes, which occurred at a small scale (number-wise) over a long period?
I'm not defending the police about this and other cases; quite the opposite. But they need to treat all such claims equally, regardless of ethnicity, religion, fame, or contacts of the alleged perpetrator, or social position of the alleged victim. For one victim might well become many as the investigation goes on.
Nothing in this report is really new at a wide level; for instance there have been media reports of police ignoring vulnerable girls under sixteen having sex with much older men for years now, with no further action resulting.
The problem lies within the police, the councils (especially welfare), schools, and especially the communities. Because you can guarantee this would not have been hidden. Wives would have known. Friends would have known. Sons and daughters would have known.
She was associating with a group of older Asian men and possibly taking drugs. She disclosed having had intercourse with five adults. Two of the adults received police cautions after admitting to the Police that they had intercourse with Child A. Child A continued to go missing and was at high risk of sexual exploitation. A child protection case conference was held. It was agreed by all at the conference that Child A should be registered. However, the CID (criminal investigation department) representative argued against the category of sexual abuse being used because he thought that Child A had been ‘100% consensual in every incident’.
That's also an important point, in addition to the other issues raised here and elsewhere. Because pre-16 sex is more commonplace than we like to think, I suspect the police in some areas have slipped into the practice of thinking that if under-age consent is given, that means it's more or less OK, though I'm amazed that it's still seen as OK at age 12 (apparently the age of consent in some countries, e.g. Spain). I wonder, too, whether there isn't an element of prejudice here too - police officers thinking "that's what chavs do". The law, though, is quite unequivocal - children under 16 are not considered capable of giving consent, so most such cases should be treated as rape (though exceptions are made when the couple are much the same age). If the police in some areas in practice think differently, then they do indeed need training. I think that was a factor in the Saville business too - sub-16 children apparently consenting to what the famous man was up to, and people thinking well, that's what groupies do.
Clearly that doesn't begin to explain why actual rape of unwilling victims was not pursued, but we need to look at how victims are seen as well as how perpetrators are seen - it looks as though there were very serious breaches of decent or even legal behaviour in both respects. And we need to see a full assessment of the role played by everyone involved and prosecutions brought where appropriate, regardless of who it is.
Could South yorks police eagerness to get on Cliff Richards case be explained by the fact they knew they were in for a pasting this week?
Is @Roger putting steroids in his champers since his return? Seems unusually aggressive, and stupid
I'd hope everyone who is horrified and stunned by today's report would back the police investigating all claims of abuse, whether it points to Muslims, the Catholic Church / CofE and associated organisations, the BBC, politicians, celebrities, or any one of us.
I couldn't agree more, they could start by lifting the D notice that Blair slapped on Operation Ore.
There are politicians of all parties with skeletons in the closet, plus more celebrities, church organizations, institutions etc that will hopefully face the truth about the lives they have ruined.
Comments
Also the cultural factor (e.g. an attitude to women) may have a bearing not just on the motivation of the perpetrators but also on why there was a reluctance to investigate by those authorities who were informed of the problem. That too needs looking at because, almost as bad as the crimes themselves, were the apparent cover-ups and/or turning of blind eyes.
But as you rightly said there should be a full scale criminal inquiry and whoever has committed a crime should be prosecuted. And those who failed in their duties of investigation and protection should be disciplined and, where appropriate, prosecuted - without fear or favour or regard to ethnicities or religion or anything else.
26/08/2014 18:53
Is anyone in any doubt that if this had been bunch of white thugs sexually abusing black girls, ethnicity would never have been mentioned?
Procedures may not.
It is also true of every creed and race that these practices will thrive when not checked by the rule of secular law.
What is at issue here is that political correctness was allowed to supersede the rule of law for a certain period in a certain place in Britain.
The chief culprits are those who established the climate of political correctness and the threat of being prosecuted for being called a racist, and allowed these principles to supersede the rule of law
The chief culprits are labour politicians.
Crumbs! An inquiry into child abuse has just reported and Cooper's immediate response to its findings is that we need an inquiry into child abuse. That woman should be made lead leader of the Labour Party, such incisive thinking, such a willingness to actually do something is rare in these difficult times. I am sure if I checked up on it, her response was not just to call for an inquiry but to call for a full, independent and judge-led inquiry
I doubt Rotherham is the only place where this has happened and no doubt there will be councils where Tories or Lib Dems were in charge when similar crimes happened. Remember the Kincora Boys Home scandal happened in the 1970s in Northern Ireland.
Of course the other great thing about inquiries is they save politicians from saying unpopular things or having to take any action.
We have too many bloody inquiries, just for once I'd like to hear a politician spell out the long over due arse-kicking they are going to deliver.
The perpetrators are not the issue. The issue is that they were allowed to get away with these crimes because of their race and creed by the authorities.
The policies of the labour party in the first decade of the 21st century are the reason why these crimes went on unchecked.
It's not really possible to vote with your feet though. Watching any live TV requires a license, and that money goes to the BBC (perhaps not satellite applicable?). Perhaps all payers should be able to choose where their money finishes up.
The values of the BBC have changed dramatically over the last 25 years - their prime editorial momentum now seems to be that they should regard any news about any ex or current BBC employee as far more important than the run of the mill nuclear war. If Clair Balding stubs her toe we won't notice that in the same week we've been contacted by ET, discovered perpetual motion, or have finally achieved world peace.
That is a separate issue. There, the perps got away with it for very different reasons to this case.
In rotherham the men got away with it because they were Pakistani muslims
At Kincora the men got away with it because they were powerful and well connected.
Cooper is seeking to lump all of these scandals in together under the child abuse banner to try to get labour off the hook.
They were in government for all of this time. It is their fault.
usual bollocks.
First, there have, sadly, been hundreds of thousands of child abuse cases perpetrated by indigenous WWC, WUC, WMC people in this country. The association of Asians with child abuse I am willing to believe is but one sub-sample of many that could have been singled out.
It is the @taffys issue that is critical. Has the "PC gone mad" environment meant that such abuses by Asians have been treated in a different way to others. It beggars belief but it seems that that might be what happened.
It seems, as I noted previously, that what with the IS situation also, some pretty prominent "community" leaders or spokesmen or representatives, such as The Quilliam Foundation, need to be launching a huge PR education and reassurance campaign because as a Tory I don't want a knee-jerk vote from someone outraged by recent events to the point whereby they might vote for a party that they believe might be "tough" (rather than sensible) on immigration.
But most importantly, why oh why is @Hugh back here when he promised us he was going to s0d off once and for all.
They could maybe start by looking the other way only if it's minor, such as shoplifting or postal voting fraud. You know, ease them into it. Turning an oil tanker. Not unless the election is trivial, like the euros. Neil Kinnock made the same mistake. Not an example you want to emulate.
I do think we have been cowardly in not confronting the very regressive view that certain communities have of women and challenging this. And that certainly needs to change.
But let's face it: no nationality/race has a monopoly on criminality. So let's not assume that people of Pakistani-descent are somehow uniquely evil or the only people in Britain who are guilty of child abuse. That's as idiotic as those who looked the other way in Rotherham.
Absolutely correct. It's vital to appreciate this point, I think. It's difficult to see the issues clearly otherwise.
Has it occurred to you that if HMG had been doing it's job properly the rapes might not have happened in the first place ?
PB. The home of intelligent debate.
26/08/2014 16:03
If #UKIP gain Rotherham, Labour have only themselves to blame. Systematic and disgraceful failings by council: bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan…
I'm paired with malcolm
edit: you turnip
Er....I think we do, judging from the report and the comments of those involved
The perpetrators got away with it because those in authority were prepared to ignore the rule of law. They were prepared to ignore the rule of law because they were scared of applying it against the pakistani muslim community.
The issue is when 4% of the population is doing 100% of the grooming.
As was posted downthread, there are 1,400 victims on one town alone, of 260,000. But 130,000 (50%) are men and 3% are Pakistani, so that's 3,900 males abusing 1,400 girls. But wait again, assuming even distribution of age and life expectancy of 78, there are only 50 Asian males of any given age in Rotherham.
If the perps are all between 20 and 60, then a demographic of at most 2,000 Asian males has abused 1,400 girls. If each offender abused 7 unique victims, then 200 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers. If each abused 3 unique victims then 450 of 2,000 Asian males in Rotherham were sex abusers.
That's a minority, but a huge one. Imagine walking through Rotherham knowing that every tenth, or every fourth Asian male you see is a serial sex criminal.
It's chilling.
But I can't for the life of me work out how you manage to draw your "shouldn't vote..." conclusion from wot I wrote. Or rather, if you took my invocation of knee-jerk reactions LITERALLY then you are LITERALLY not paying attention.
The perpetrators got away with it because there isn't a community any more. In part this is due to immigration stretching the ability of communities to adjust and embrace change. In part too it's because it's not clear what we might expect from our fellow citizens now.
I agree in Rotherham it was a particular problem but if you take east end villains and bank jobs in the East End or, perhaps more topically, cashpoint crimes and certain eastern-european demographics, then you can likewise spin scare stories.
Not that this shouldn't be taken seriously, nor that there seems to have been a serious failing by several of the authorities involved, nor finally that I think the whole multi-culti diversity gig has been successful.
But it is only if we see this within a sensible and proper perspective that people will not be subject, ironically, to the charge of scare-mongering or racism.
If MPs salaries were reduced to those of a social worker we might be getting down to something like their true worth.
Gabble might end up suing if people repeat that allegation,
That may well be the case, but I genuinely think this issue is a separate one, and it doesn't help to deal with it right now.
This is a case chiefly about what is turning into huge failure of the rule of law in Britain. It is my contention that the rule of law was subverted IN THIS CASE chiefly because the labour government's policy.
You can pursue the case workers and the police if you want, but it was more powerful forces higher up than them that really caused these events to occur.
The Cons will never be able to square that circle.
Would that involve extra training ?
Actually yes it does, I believe. Certainly by implication.
http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Delighted-MP-partner-celebrate-arrival-baby/story-22818789-detail/story.html
With respect, That is not correct. It is not the community's job to apprehend and prosecute serious criminals. That is the job of the authorities.
edit: you turnip
LOL, I am going to copyright it.
then they should stop contesting elections. Voters don't elect politicians to say wibble.
What are all these hard decisions HMG's meant to be taking ? If they can't set a simple salary how will they run a Civil Service with 5 million employees ?
If you want the laws to be made immediately in response to every event that transpires then you are in for a bumpy ride.
I suppose I should have said swede for our english readers ;-)
The First Minister also branded Mr Darling a “Tory front man” and claimed the ex-Chancellor “muffed it” in last night’s clash.
... “Alistair Darling is a front man for the Conservative party in this campaign,” Mr Salmond said.
“Alistair Darling is in alliance with the Conservative party in this campaign - that is what the No campaign is. Now that Alistair Darling is taking part in no further debates, let’s have the real leader of the No campaign, David Cameron, let’s have him in Scotland now.
“Let’s see if he can do any better than Alistair Darling did - I don’t think he will.”
http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/scottish-independence-salmond-challenges-cameron-1-3520836
I am having to repeat my fairly jejune posts to you saying the same thing in a different way because you seem unable to grasp the points I am making. It is unlike you to be so wilfully obtuse.
Yes 5/1 (Betdaq)
No 2/11 (BetFred)
put the bottle down, Alan.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bnps-nick-griffin-is-hateful-574450
maybe I should start drinking if only to make some of the posts less objectionable.
If you can't see that not taking action pushes people to the extremes you dislike then there is no hope.
Is @Roger putting steroids in his champers since his return? Seems unusually aggressive, and stupid
Obama's use of ISIL demonstrates his true allegiance - and his animus towards Israel http://bit.ly/1pDuyWj #tcot
26/08/2014 20:05
Rotherham MP. Is this more than collection of cliches? sarahchampionmp.com/sarah-champion…
As we have seen, child abuse in Britain is long-standing and until recently the general tendency of the authorities has been to turn a blind eye, whoever the perpetrators are. Generally speaking, outside of familial/friendship circle abuse, the victims tend to be extremely vulnerable and on the margins of society. That's why an over-arching enquiry is necessary. What processes do we need to put in place to ensure this does not happen anymore?
With that, I am taking a break from PB for a while. Some of the posts on here today - not all, but some - have been truly sickening, with people scarcely interested in doing anything other than using the horrible crimes in Rotherham and elsewhere as a pretext to abuse individuals, nationalities, the BBC, political parties and whole religions. I enjoy posting on here and exchanging views with those whose way of looking at the world I do not share, and as I say I completely accept the left is complicit in what has been uncovered, but this afternoon's thread has, in parts, put me right off.
She was associating with a group of older Asian men and possibly taking drugs. She disclosed having had intercourse with five adults. Two of the adults received police cautions after admitting to the Police that they had intercourse with Child A. Child A continued to go missing and was at high risk of sexual exploitation. A child protection case conference was held. It was agreed by all at the conference that Child A should be registered. However, the CID (criminal investigation department) representative argued against the category of sexual abuse being used because he thought that Child A had been ‘100% consensual in every incident’.
"I, ... of ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law."
Anything in there about ignoring complaints of rape because of the danger to community cohesion?
I know we probably disagree more than we agree, but I hope you're back soon.
UKIP leader Nigel Farage has been selected by party officials to stand in the 2015 general election for South Thanet.
Nigel for PM.
Stuart's the swede, not malc...
The fewer interesting people post on here, the less fun it becomes.
Personally I'm waiting for 19th Sept when @alanbrooke stops yanking @malcolmg's chain and starts pointing anti-Osborne diatribes again
Anyone know what's happened to him ?
All those guilty of covering this disgusting stuff up should be blamed, including those groups who constantly play the race card to stifle debate. That would include the BBC, the Labour Party and many others, all crippled by political correctness.
It seems the do gooders have done bad, very bad and I hope they can now admit their mistakes.
I'm sorry if SO feels he have to leave for a while, but the truly sickening posts are the ones that Socrates suffered, not random posts that merely point out the reality of what has gone on.
I'm not defending the police about this and other cases; quite the opposite. But they need to treat all such claims equally, regardless of ethnicity, religion, fame, or contacts of the alleged perpetrator, or social position of the alleged victim. For one victim might well become many as the investigation goes on.
Nothing in this report is really new at a wide level; for instance there have been media reports of police ignoring vulnerable girls under sixteen having sex with much older men for years now, with no further action resulting.
The problem lies within the police, the councils (especially welfare), schools, and especially the communities. Because you can guarantee this would not have been hidden. Wives would have known. Friends would have known. Sons and daughters would have known.
Clearly that doesn't begin to explain why actual rape of unwilling victims was not pursued, but we need to look at how victims are seen as well as how perpetrators are seen - it looks as though there were very serious breaches of decent or even legal behaviour in both respects. And we need to see a full assessment of the role played by everyone involved and prosecutions brought where appropriate, regardless of who it is.
There are politicians of all parties with skeletons in the closet, plus more celebrities, church organizations, institutions etc that will hopefully face the truth about the lives they have ruined.