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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    malcolmg said:

    ''In a campaign that is increasingly being dominated by the economic implications'' -- and so it should be. Scotland will be no more Scottish if it's 'independent' than it will be less Scottish if it stays part of the United Kingdom. Scotland is Scottish, its people are Scottish. Currenmtly it can have all that Scottishness without the responsibility for sustaining it. I am not surprised the No vote is holding up.

    If the vote is NO then Scotland can never claim to be a country again , we can throw it all in and just have GB teams etc and become a regional nonentity.
    Pend. September 19.......
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited July 2014
    Pulpstar said:

    Grandiose said:

    Grandiose said:

    Grandiose said:

    Can PBers who like football do me a favour please!

    Can you reassure me, that Liverpool haven't had another "Andy Carroll" moment, by spending £25million on Adam Lallana.

    I think Pool are paying a risk premium here - the chance Lallana goes on to be a truly outstanding player as a replacement for Gerrard.
    But we have the Mackem Messi, Jordan Henderson to be the long term replacement for Gerrard.

    I can't see Coutinho and Lallana in the same team.

    Edit: I can now. Once Luis departs, play Sturridge up front, and Coutinho behind him.
    I was going to say, wait to see who departs.

    Henderson is tomorrow's holding midfielder, but Lallana is better going forward. I still haven't worked out the angles though.

    Does Sterling start?
    Emre Can or the Serb we're trying to sign is our new holding midfielder.

    I'm assuming Sterling starts, but given we're going to be in the Champs league, I'm expecting a bit of rotation.

    Gawds knows how we're going to fit in Alexis Sanchez.

    How many midfielders do you need?!

    That's Gerrard, Coutinho, Sterling, Henderson, Lallana, Can, Markovic (if signed), Assaidi, Leiva, Allen. Plus some other young'uns.
    Any team in the Champs league should have a strong squad. It hasn't done Man City any harm recently.
    There's depth and there's something else entirely. Lieva and Allen will expect to have game time, but I can't see it. Even if Liverpool field a 4-5-1, they would struggle to break through - and I'm not convinced that Countinho is good enough supply to Sturridge - he's too unpredictable.

    Man City fielded Fernandinho, Milner, Nasri, Navas, Silva, Touré, and that was plenty for a mixed 1 and 2 up front approach.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    Socrates said:

    malcolmg said:

    ''In a campaign that is increasingly being dominated by the economic implications'' -- and so it should be. Scotland will be no more Scottish if it's 'independent' than it will be less Scottish if it stays part of the United Kingdom. Scotland is Scottish, its people are Scottish. Currenmtly it can have all that Scottishness without the responsibility for sustaining it. I am not surprised the No vote is holding up.

    If the vote is NO then Scotland can never claim to be a country again , we can throw it all in and just have GB teams etc and become a regional nonentity.
    Salmond seems quite keen to sign you up to be a regional nonentity of the EU.
    That rather depends on how you view the EU. Currently we have no power and in teh EU we would. I doubt you are not suggesting Germany , France , etc are not independent countries but just regional nonentities. Rather Little Englander viewpoint methinks.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    edited July 2014
    malcolmg said:

    Socrates said:

    malcolmg said:

    ''In a campaign that is increasingly being dominated by the economic implications'' -- and so it should be. Scotland will be no more Scottish if it's 'independent' than it will be less Scottish if it stays part of the United Kingdom. Scotland is Scottish, its people are Scottish. Currenmtly it can have all that Scottishness without the responsibility for sustaining it. I am not surprised the No vote is holding up.

    If the vote is NO then Scotland can never claim to be a country again , we can throw it all in and just have GB teams etc and become a regional nonentity.
    Salmond seems quite keen to sign you up to be a regional nonentity of the EU.
    That rather depends on how you view the EU. Currently we have no power and in teh EU we would. I doubt you are not suggesting Germany , France , etc are not independent countries but just regional nonentities. Rather Little Englander viewpoint methinks.
    '...and in teh EU we would...'

    Ha Ha. What a Turnip.

    No influence at Westminster, bar the numerous MP's sent south, and in the last decade 2 Scottish Prime Ministers and a C of E.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    I expect Malcolm is filling his boots:

    Tom Newton Dunn tweets: Odds for a ‘No’ vote in #IndyRef cut to 1/7 by @sharpeangle, the shortest price yet. 'Yes' widens to 4/1.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    JohnO said:

    Yet another God is crap thread.

    He's almost as unpopular as Ed.

    Interesting that, in both cases, it's the people that don't know him that feel the need to be most vocal about their opinions
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    Socrates said:

    malcolmg said:

    ''In a campaign that is increasingly being dominated by the economic implications'' -- and so it should be. Scotland will be no more Scottish if it's 'independent' than it will be less Scottish if it stays part of the United Kingdom. Scotland is Scottish, its people are Scottish. Currenmtly it can have all that Scottishness without the responsibility for sustaining it. I am not surprised the No vote is holding up.

    If the vote is NO then Scotland can never claim to be a country again , we can throw it all in and just have GB teams etc and become a regional nonentity.
    Salmond seems quite keen to sign you up to be a regional nonentity of the EU.
    That rather depends on how you view the EU. Currently we have no power and in teh EU we would. I doubt you are not suggesting Germany , France , etc are not independent countries but just regional nonentities. Rather Little Englander viewpoint methinks.
    '...and in teh EU we would...'

    Ha Ha. What a Turnip.
    Now you cannot even make up your own insults
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959
    Roy Keane appointed Aston Villa assistant manager.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Roy Keane appointed Aston Villa assistant manager.

    That should be fun ;-)

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    ToryJim said:

    Socrates said:

    Mr. Carnyx, I always disliked religious assemblies. I'm an atheist, always have been, and don't mind the existence of such assemblies for believers, but it was and is ridiculous that an atheist has to go along to a Christian assembly.

    Or indeed, members of other religions.

    I went to Christian school and was told I had to attend religious services on a regular basis. When I said that I was not a believer, they said I had agreed to be part of this when I joined the school. I found it fairly absurd that as a 17 year old I was being held to choices made when I was 11. I eventually just stopped going and worked in the library during that hour, and they never took any action.
    I went to a catholic sixth form, and as one of only two non Catholics, decided that I would protest by taking communion. It was a strange protest, and apparently (according to my head of sixth form) was 'taking the piss, even for you'
    Body of Christ tastes foul. Well, it would if it had any flavour.
    I remember having an interesting discussion with a Catholic priest on transubstantiation and that in essence it turns all Catholics into cannibals.
    I'll have the body of Christ starter please.
    It is a most curious superstition. Why the heckfire would anyone want to eat their Messiah?
    It's a misunderstanding...

    When Christ handed out the bread and said "take, eat, this is my Body which is given for you; do this in Remembrance of me" and "drink ye all of this; [the Cup of wine] for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you, and for many, for the remission of sins; Do this, as oft as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."

    He was quite obviously speaking symbolically / mystically.

    The "cannibals" line is almost as old and as credible as the blood libel
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,959

    Roy Keane appointed Aston Villa assistant manager.

    That should be fun ;-)

    Nothing will ever top this

    Keane temporarily quits international football after a monumental slanging match with Republic of Ireland boss Mick McCarthy, in front of his team-mates in Saipan. Keane had expressed his frustrations with the side's preparations for the 2002 World Cup to the Irish Times, telling them: "You've seen the training pitch and I'm not being a prima donna. Training pitch, travel arrangements, getting through the bloody airport when we were leaving, it's the combination of things. I would never say 'that's the reason or this is the reason', but enough is enough."

    That interview led to a furious row, during which Keane told McCarthy. "Mick, you're a liar... you're a fucking wanker. I didn't rate you as a player, I don't rate you as a manager, and I don't rate you as a person. You're a fucking wanker and you can stick your World Cup up your arse. The only reason I have any dealings with you is that somehow you are the manager of my country! You can stick it up your bollocks."

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/aug/24/sport.comment
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,144
    edited July 2014

    I expect Malcolm is filling his boots:

    Tom Newton Dunn tweets: Odds for a ‘No’ vote in #IndyRef cut to 1/7 by @sharpeangle, the shortest price yet. 'Yes' widens to 4/1.

    Mr Newton Dunn (like so many) obviously not a bettor; No was 1/8, 1/9, 1/10 & 1/12 in November.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Charles said:

    JohnO said:

    Yet another God is crap thread.

    He's almost as unpopular as Ed.

    Interesting that, in both cases, it's the people that don't know him that feel the need to be most vocal about their opinions
    I had hoped there were limits to your relentless name-dropping. Your mum sat next to the Almighty at dinner, did she?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Socrates said:

    malcolmg said:

    ''In a campaign that is increasingly being dominated by the economic implications'' -- and so it should be. Scotland will be no more Scottish if it's 'independent' than it will be less Scottish if it stays part of the United Kingdom. Scotland is Scottish, its people are Scottish. Currenmtly it can have all that Scottishness without the responsibility for sustaining it. I am not surprised the No vote is holding up.

    If the vote is NO then Scotland can never claim to be a country again , we can throw it all in and just have GB teams etc and become a regional nonentity.
    Salmond seems quite keen to sign you up to be a regional nonentity of the EU.
    That rather depends on how you view the EU. Currently we have no power and in teh EU we would. I doubt you are not suggesting Germany , France , etc are not independent countries but just regional nonentities. Rather Little Englander viewpoint methinks.
    '...and in teh EU we would...'

    Ha Ha. What a Turnip.
    Now you cannot even make up your own insults
    It's easier to use the simple ones that you can understand.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014
    How long a ban did he get for the Haaland challenge ?

    Should have probably been at least a season. That wasn't a foul, it was assault. Far worse than anything Suarez has done.

    Just checked - 3 + 5 matches - real joke of a punishment.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Roy Keane appointed Aston Villa assistant manager.

    That should be fun ;-)

    Nothing will ever top this

    Keane temporarily quits international football after a monumental slanging match with Republic of Ireland boss Mick McCarthy, in front of his team-mates in Saipan. Keane had expressed his frustrations with the side's preparations for the 2002 World Cup to the Irish Times, telling them: "You've seen the training pitch and I'm not being a prima donna. Training pitch, travel arrangements, getting through the bloody airport when we were leaving, it's the combination of things. I would never say 'that's the reason or this is the reason', but enough is enough."

    That interview led to a furious row, during which Keane told McCarthy. "Mick, you're a liar... you're a fucking wanker. I didn't rate you as a player, I don't rate you as a manager, and I don't rate you as a person. You're a fucking wanker and you can stick your World Cup up your arse. The only reason I have any dealings with you is that somehow you are the manager of my country! You can stick it up your bollocks."

    http://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/aug/24/sport.comment
    lol

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Smarmeron said:

    @dyedwoolie
    "I don't want salvation, I just want to sleep. And remain part of the fabric of the universe forever"

    In that case you have to pin your hopes on the Ev contained in the Higgs boson (other physics models are available).

    Hopes are irrelevant, what will be, will be. The day will come when all memory of me is gone, my only aim is to ensure that day is not whilst I still breathe,
    That could be a long time, though - we actively remember back 300+ years; after that it becomes a little hazy, although there are some standout characters :)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    I thought detail was supposed to be Ed's strong point? That's what tim always used to say, anyway.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date


    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html


    A précis is easier.. eg "Ed is crap"
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    I thought detail was supposed to be Ed's strong point? That's what tim always used to say, anyway.
    @DavidGauke: Number of JSA claimants in Ed Miliband's Doncaster constituency down 25% in last year. A clue that jobs being created outside London?

    @DavidGauke: Number of JSA claimants in Ed Balls' Yorkshire seat down 29% in last year. Jobs being created up & down the country but Labour in denial.
  • WitanWitan Posts: 26
    edited July 2014
    @eljmayes: Audience members in Yorkshire in today pointed out to Ed Miliband that more jobs are being created in the area, not less. Ouch.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Ishmael_X said:

    Charles said:

    JohnO said:

    Yet another God is crap thread.

    He's almost as unpopular as Ed.

    Interesting that, in both cases, it's the people that don't know him that feel the need to be most vocal about their opinions
    I had hoped there were limits to your relentless name-dropping. Your mum sat next to the Almighty at dinner, did she?
    Nah, she hovers between agnostic and atheist depending on her mood.

    Don't mean to name drop, btw, just sharing perspectives.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Labour: "Four fifths of net new jobs since 2010 have been in London."

    Official for National Statistics: Three quarters of new jobs since 2010 have been outside London.

    Oops...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    Who the hell is running Labour's research department? Can they not even use Google? The article also shows that Ed refuses to change tack - still saying afterwards that the original stats he then cut out are the best evidence he has seen. He just can't think on his feet.

    And these constituency-by-constituency employment stats - when compared to what Labour left behind - are going to be brutal for Ed come next May.

    I am SO looking forward to Labour's election campaign....
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    A sign of which way a Ed miliband Government will be going ;-)

    Ken Livingstone: I'd accept a job in an Ed Miliband cabinet

    http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ken-livingstone-id-accept-a-job-in-an-ed-miliband-cabinet-9576023.html
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    I thought detail was supposed to be Ed's strong point? That's what tim always used to say, anyway.
    Just imagine a whole campaign of this nonsense from Ed.

    Con GAIN Bolsover ....

    Titters ....

  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Labour: "Four fifths of net new jobs since 2010 have been in London."

    Official for National Statistics: Three quarters of new jobs since 2010 have been outside London.

    Oops...

    Fittingly for Wimbledon fortnight, an unforced error.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    From Guido, so could bullsh1t, but this is worth people knowing about:

    Andrew Lansley was working the terrace hard yesterday evening, hobnobbing with Tory backbenchers and cabinet ministers alike at the IoD summer party, and really pressing the flesh. Observing the situation from the sidelines a senior government source whispered to Guido that the Leader of the House “doesn’t have a cat in hells chance” of being the UK’s next EU Commissioner. When Guido questioned the veracity of such a claim, the confident reply came “trust me, it’s never going to happen. He thinks it will, but I can assure you it won’t.” Could it be Whitehall bluster, or a diversionary tactic? Or is Lanners really out of the race? We report, you decide…

    http://order-order.com/2014/07/01/senior-gov-source-lansley-out-of-eu-race/
  • If there's a huge No vote on Sept 18, can we expect a compensatory, sympathetic, call it what you will, unusually high vote for the SNP at the 2015 GE, principally at Labour's expense of course in terms of seats?
    Sadly there are not as yet any seat band betting odds on offer ..... how about it Shadsy?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937

    A sign of which way a Ed miliband Government will be going ;-)

    Ken Livingstone: I'd accept a job in an Ed Miliband cabinet

    That should help frighten the UKIP horses back into the stable!

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    Who the hell is running Labour's research department? Can they not even use Google? The article also shows that Ed refuses to change tack - still saying afterwards that the original stats he then cut out are the best evidence he has seen. He just can't think on his feet.

    And these constituency-by-constituency employment stats - when compared to what Labour left behind - are going to be brutal for Ed come next May.

    I am SO looking forward to Labour's election campaign....
    It validates perfectly the criticism of EdM by Cruddas. Focus group tested sound bites over fact driven policy development.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    Who the hell is running Labour's research department? Can they not even use Google? The article also shows that Ed refuses to change tack - still saying afterwards that the original stats he then cut out are the best evidence he has seen. He just can't think on his feet.

    And these constituency-by-constituency employment stats - when compared to what Labour left behind - are going to be brutal for Ed come next May.

    I am SO looking forward to Labour's election campaign....

    Last time round Labour had a Jimmy Saville lookalike on the team OMHG...
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Witan said:

    @eljmayes: Audience members in Yorkshire in today pointed out to Ed Miliband that more jobs are being created in the area, not less. Ouch.

    Meet the public might not feature too heavily in Ed's general election campaign if this disaster is a measure of things to come.

    You'd almost feel sorry for Ed as you peeked between your fingers as the latest Bacongate unfolded.

    Almost ....

  • WitanWitan Posts: 26
    @JoeWatts_: Ken (Lord?) Livingstone wants in to Ed Mili's 1st cabinet... http://t.co/UVCzF3wV1g


    And that seems to be more of a threat than a message of support in the context of Len the Boss yesterday threatening damage on the whole country while funding the Miliband campaign.

    What a great day for the push for Labour to win business support.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    ... The article also shows that Ed refuses to change tack - still saying afterwards that the original stats he then cut out are the best evidence he has seen. He just can't think on his feet.

    Time and time again, he proves that in PMQ's, unable to deviate from his 6 set questions when it would be wise to do so.

  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Witan said:

    @JoeWatts_: Ken (Lord?) Livingstone wants in to Ed Mili's 1st cabinet... http://t.co/UVCzF3wV1g


    And that seems to be more of a threat than a message of support in the context of Len the Boss yesterday threatening damage on the whole country while funding the Miliband campaign.

    What a great day for the push for Labour to win business support.

    In 2012, after losing to Boris, Ken said "This is my last election".

    Clearly still wants power without the nuisance of having to win an election.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    Charles said:

    From Guido, so could bullsh1t, but this is worth people knowing about:

    Andrew Lansley was working the terrace hard yesterday evening, hobnobbing with Tory backbenchers and cabinet ministers alike at the IoD summer party, and really pressing the flesh. Observing the situation from the sidelines a senior government source whispered to Guido that the Leader of the House “doesn’t have a cat in hells chance” of being the UK’s next EU Commissioner. When Guido questioned the veracity of such a claim, the confident reply came “trust me, it’s never going to happen. He thinks it will, but I can assure you it won’t.” Could it be Whitehall bluster, or a diversionary tactic? Or is Lanners really out of the race? We report, you decide…

    http://order-order.com/2014/07/01/senior-gov-source-lansley-out-of-eu-race/

    Now, Charles, enough of this tittle-tattle.

    I have been struggling this morning with ONS's latest release on Labour Productivity.

    Lots of charts and data series all obscuring a clear picture of what is happening.

    But there have been two observable depressors of productivity since the great recession.

    1. Financial Services
    2. Pharmaceuticals and Chemicals.

    Now as you are the only known PBer who works in the former with clients in the latter, I think we are due an explanation coupled with a full and frank personal apology.

    The following link is produced in evidence:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/17_tcm77-368586.png

    Note "20-21" refers to Chemical and Pharmaceutical Products.

    Full ONS release here:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/productivity/labour-productivity/q1-2014/stbq114.html#tab-Labour-Productivity--Q1-2014
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,937
    AveryLP said:



    It validates perfectly the criticism of EdM by Cruddas. Focus group tested sound bites over fact driven policy development.

    Cruddas deserves considerable kudos for giving us the epithet Ed "Dead-hand" Miliband......
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AveryLP said:

    Charles said:

    From Guido, so could bullsh1t, but this is worth people knowing about:

    Andrew Lansley was working the terrace hard yesterday evening, hobnobbing with Tory backbenchers and cabinet ministers alike at the IoD summer party, and really pressing the flesh. Observing the situation from the sidelines a senior government source whispered to Guido that the Leader of the House “doesn’t have a cat in hells chance” of being the UK’s next EU Commissioner. When Guido questioned the veracity of such a claim, the confident reply came “trust me, it’s never going to happen. He thinks it will, but I can assure you it won’t.” Could it be Whitehall bluster, or a diversionary tactic? Or is Lanners really out of the race? We report, you decide…

    http://order-order.com/2014/07/01/senior-gov-source-lansley-out-of-eu-race/

    Now, Charles, enough of this tittle-tattle.

    I have been struggling this morning with ONS's latest release on Labour Productivity.

    Lots of charts and data series all obscuring a clear picture of what is happening.

    But there have been two observable depressors of productivity since the great recession.

    1. Financial Services
    2. Pharmaceuticals and Chemicals.

    Now as you are the only known PBer who works in the former with clients in the latter, I think we are due an explanation coupled with a full and frank personal apology.

    The following link is produced in evidence:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/17_tcm77-368586.png

    Note "20-21" refers to Chemical and Pharmaceutical Products.

    Full ONS release here:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/productivity/labour-productivity/q1-2014/stbq114.html#tab-Labour-Productivity--Q1-2014
    Don't have time to go through the detail, but Sandwich could be a cause?


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-19096215
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Smarmeron said:

    @dyedwoolie

    I may visit your wonderful hostelry someday. But, I have only five digits on each of my arms and legs.......will I be refused admittance into your sanctum? Or will I need to have extra ones grafted on?

    It's alright, we're not fenlanders
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    @Charles

    My real question being what is it in the Chemicals and Pharmaceutical Sectors which has caused such rapid loss of productivity.

    A clue may lie in the following snippet from the publication:

    Chemicals & Pharmaceuticals was also top of the distribution for output per hour in 2010 (£77.7), with Wood, paper products, & printing (divisions 16-18) and Basic metals & metal products (divisions 24-25) at the bottom of the distribution. On this basis the average for manufacturing as a whole was £29.4 and the average for the whole economy was £27.9 per hour.

    Has there been a massive drop in value or volume output in the C&P sector?
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    edited July 2014
    ""It's the best statistics I've seen."

    In saying that Miliband was no more than speaking the truth, the statistics he almost quoted were no doubt the best he had ever seen given his viewpoint and the message he was trying to convey. That they were years out of date and total nonsense, doesn't change the fact that they were, for him, the best he has seen on the subject.

    So I am not sure that the charge on being unable to think on his feet is supported by this latest fiasco. Remember too that Chuka Umunna, the shadow business secretary, and Lord Adonis were both on the airwaves this morning both spouting the same nonsense figures. Is this not a sign that front row Labour politicians don't have a clue what they are talking about but are prepared to go public and say anything their incompetent back room staff come up with?

    Of course if Ed was actually a leader, i.e. someone who could and did lead, this sort of embarrassment would not happen. However, he isn't and can't. His powers of leadership are so piss poor that he makes Cameron appear as a modern day General Slim by comparison. The fact that this muppet maybe Prime Minister next year is truly frightening.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Charles said:

    ToryJim said:

    Socrates said:

    Mr. Carnyx, I always disliked religious assemblies. I'm an atheist, always have been, and don't mind the existence of such assemblies for believers, but it was and is ridiculous that an atheist has to go along to a Christian assembly.

    Or indeed, members of other religions.

    I went to Christian school and was told I had to attend religious services on a regular basis. When I said that I was not a believer, they said I had agreed to be part of this when I joined the school. I found it fairly absurd that as a 17 year old I was being held to choices made when I was 11. I eventually just stopped going and worked in the library during that hour, and they never took any action.
    I went to a catholic sixth form, and as one of only two non Catholics, decided that I would protest by taking communion. It was a strange protest, and apparently (according to my head of sixth form) was 'taking the piss, even for you'
    Body of Christ tastes foul. Well, it would if it had any flavour.
    I remember having an interesting discussion with a Catholic priest on transubstantiation and that in essence it turns all Catholics into cannibals.
    I'll have the body of Christ starter please.
    It is a most curious superstition. Why the heckfire would anyone want to eat their Messiah?
    It's a misunderstanding...

    When Christ handed out the bread and said "take, eat, this is my Body which is given for you; do this in Remembrance of me" and "drink ye all of this; [the Cup of wine] for this is my Blood of the New Testament, which is shed for you, and for many, for the remission of sins; Do this, as oft as ye shall drink it, in remembrance of me."

    He was quite obviously speaking symbolically / mystically.

    The "cannibals" line is almost as old and as credible as the blood libel
    The transubstantiaters would disagree....
    However it's still a very odd superstition. I'm going to have a sandwich..... Oh yeah! There was that Jesus bloke.... But only on a picnic, not when you eat a sandwich alone.
    Still, it's far from the oddest.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    MaxPB said:

    As a Tory, you must see how self-defeating keeping benefits for working people has been for your party, why has nothing been done by the Chancellor to take an axe to tax credits for working people, it dooms your party in the long term as the trend will always be for more government rather than less.

    I don't think that logic quite stacks up. The problem is that those benefits were already being paid. From a purely party-political point of view, axing them rapidly would hardly be likely to endear the Tories to those middle-range voters whose support the party needs (see Bobafett of this parish and his outrage at having his freebies curtailed slightly).

    It seems to me that the approach Osborne has taken is as good as is electorally possible. I agree with you on the end-point: we really shouldn't be paying benefits to anyone on average wages or more, let alone the well-off, which amounts to taxing them and then giving them some of them some of their money back, having deducted a huge admin fee. But getting there is not as easy as you make out. It will take three terms to get the welfare monster back under full control.
    I thought tax credits were cut back quite significantly by Osborne in his first couple of budgets - I remember the thresholds being reduced so that I was no longer eligible, and various other changes.

    However, I've hunted out the official figures, and expenditure on tax credits hasn't gone down, which I find surprising. Presumably this is because so many of the newly employed are being subsidised with the tax credits system.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Charles said:

    AveryLP said:

    Charles said:

    From Guido, so could bullsh1t, but this is worth people knowing about:

    Andrew Lansley was working the terrace hard yesterday evening, hobnobbing with Tory backbenchers and cabinet ministers alike at the IoD summer party, and really pressing the flesh. Observing the situation from the sidelines a senior government source whispered to Guido that the Leader of the House “doesn’t have a cat in hells chance” of being the UK’s next EU Commissioner. When Guido questioned the veracity of such a claim, the confident reply came “trust me, it’s never going to happen. He thinks it will, but I can assure you it won’t.” Could it be Whitehall bluster, or a diversionary tactic? Or is Lanners really out of the race? We report, you decide…

    http://order-order.com/2014/07/01/senior-gov-source-lansley-out-of-eu-race/

    Now, Charles, enough of this tittle-tattle.

    I have been struggling this morning with ONS's latest release on Labour Productivity.

    Lots of charts and data series all obscuring a clear picture of what is happening.

    But there have been two observable depressors of productivity since the great recession.

    1. Financial Services
    2. Pharmaceuticals and Chemicals.

    Now as you are the only known PBer who works in the former with clients in the latter, I think we are due an explanation coupled with a full and frank personal apology.

    The following link is produced in evidence:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/17_tcm77-368586.png

    Note "20-21" refers to Chemical and Pharmaceutical Products.

    Full ONS release here:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/productivity/labour-productivity/q1-2014/stbq114.html#tab-Labour-Productivity--Q1-2014
    Don't have time to go through the detail, but Sandwich could be a cause?


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-19096215
    Sandwich though was mainly an R&D rather than a production unit.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    ""It's the best statistics I've seen."

    In saying that Miliband was no more than speaking the truth, the statistics he almost quoted were no doubt the best he had ever seen given his viewpoint and the message he was trying to convey. That they were years out of date and total nonsense, doesn't change the fact that they were, for him, the best he has seen on the subject.

    So I am not sure that the charge on being unable to think on his feet is supported by this latest fiasco. Remember too that Chuka Umunna, the shadow business secretary, and Lord Adonis were both on the airwaves this morning both spouting the same nonsense figures. Is this not a sign that front row Labour politicians don't have a clue what they are talking about but are prepared to go public and say anything their incompetent back room staff come up with?

    Of course if Ed was actually a leader, i.e. someone who could and did lead, this sort of embarrassment would not happen. However, he isn't and can't. His powers of leadership are so piss poor that he makes Cameron appear as a modern day General Slim by comparison. The fact that this muppet maybe Prime Minister next year is truly frightening.

    Of course comparisons with The Thick Of It are redundant, but the image of Nicola Murray announcing support for a Government policy the same day the Government drop the plan springs to mind.

    Incompetent SPADs standing at the back of the room making triangle signs with their fingers...
  • Can PBers who like football do me a favour please!

    Can you reassure me, that Liverpool haven't had another "Andy Carroll" moment, by spending

    £25million on Adam Lallana.

    He's a great signing if he's a addition to Liverpool ranks and not a replacement for suarez and yes mr Eagles,liverpool need to strengthen at the back.

    I suppose Rodgers is increasing the size of the squad so as to prepare for the rigours of Champions League football and also on the assumption that Suarez will be leaving. I fear that if his replacement, whoever that might be, achieves only half his strike rate, Liverpool will struggle to finish in the top 4 next season.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @AveryLP
    Maybe they should pay workers bribes to increase productivity? It seems to work well in other areas of the industry.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited July 2014
    Can we swap her for Adrian Chiles ?

    Females commenting on male sports is a bugbear of mine. Of course it's fine to have women but lets get some women who know about the sport in question.

    It infuriates me to see rugby players getting interviewed after match by people who have no concept of what its like to get smashed around a field by giant south africans.

    There are plenty of good women rugby players - get them in instead. There must be a decent presenter among them. Football is the same. The women who are doing it are mostly doing it for the profile not because they love the sport. They would much rather be on Strictly. Honourable exception - Helen Chamberlain

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    AveryLP said:

    @Charles

    My real question being what is it in the Chemicals and Pharmaceutical Sectors which has caused such rapid loss of productivity.

    A clue may lie in the following snippet from the publication:

    Chemicals & Pharmaceuticals was also top of the distribution for output per hour in 2010 (£77.7), with Wood, paper products, & printing (divisions 16-18) and Basic metals & metal products (divisions 24-25) at the bottom of the distribution. On this basis the average for manufacturing as a whole was £29.4 and the average for the whole economy was £27.9 per hour.

    Has there been a massive drop in value or volume output in the C&P sector?

    The Chemicals sector is largely about the conversion of natural gas, naptha and ethane into various products. Typically, these are hugely expensive plants that run with modest amounts of labour when built.

    Because the price of natural gas in Europe has risen relative to the US (technically, the US fell rather than Europe rose), this has made a number of these plants uneconomic to run. (Making nitrogen fertilizer involves the Harber process, which is basically all about natural gas.) As a result, productivity will have fallen because plants are simply less active.

    In the long, long run, the development of shale gas in the UK (and in Europe), as well as the Corib field coming on stream on the coast of Ireland (as well as LNG making North American has more expensive) should mean some of these plants return to higher levels of production in the future.
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    Who the hell is running Labour's research department?
    Probably someone who got the job because of

    1/ their skin colour
    2/ their lack of a Y chromosome
    3/ the money their union gives you
    4/ who their parents were

    or, of course, all of the above.

    On balance, when trying to fill a job, it's best to hire someone who has shown they can do it. This concept has always dumbfounded Labour.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Smarmeron said:

    @AveryLP
    Maybe they should pay workers bribes to increase productivity? It seems to work well in other areas of the industry.

    We are a Christian society with an established church, smarmy.

    Len McCluskey and his wage slaves should adopt the prayer of St. Ignatius of Loyola:

    Teach us, good Lord,
    to serve you as you deserve,
    to give and not to count the cost,
    to fight and not to heed the wounds,
    to toil and not to seek for rest,
    to labour and not to ask for any reward,
    save that of knowing that we do your will.

    Amen.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @AveryLP

    Perhaps the people at the top should share in the austerity, or would that be unchristian?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Ed Miliband embarrassment as speech stats out of date

    Labour leader faces embarrassment after cutting key statistics from jobs speech, while his factory host says plans are a 'bureaucratic nightmare'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10938060/Ed-Miliband-embarrassment-as-speech-stats-out-of-date.html

    Who the hell is running Labour's research department?
    Probably someone who got the job because of

    1/ their skin colour
    2/ their lack of a Y chromosome
    3/ the money their union gives you
    4/ who their parents were

    or, of course, all of the above.

    On balance, when trying to fill a job, it's best to hire someone who has shown they can do it. This concept has always dumbfounded Labour.
    A workforce can only be regarded as sufficiently diverse if a significant proportion is unsuitable for the job.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @Cyclefree
    "A workforce can only be regarded as sufficiently diverse if a significant proportion is unsuitable for the job."

    That appears to be the same for politicians and management.
    Equality of incompetence all round?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    rcs1000 said:

    AveryLP said:

    @Charles

    My real question being what is it in the Chemicals and Pharmaceutical Sectors which has caused such rapid loss of productivity.

    A clue may lie in the following snippet from the publication:

    Chemicals & Pharmaceuticals was also top of the distribution for output per hour in 2010 (£77.7), with Wood, paper products, & printing (divisions 16-18) and Basic metals & metal products (divisions 24-25) at the bottom of the distribution. On this basis the average for manufacturing as a whole was £29.4 and the average for the whole economy was £27.9 per hour.

    Has there been a massive drop in value or volume output in the C&P sector?

    The Chemicals sector is largely about the conversion of natural gas, naptha and ethane into various products. Typically, these are hugely expensive plants that run with modest amounts of labour when built.

    Because the price of natural gas in Europe has risen relative to the US (technically, the US fell rather than Europe rose), this has made a number of these plants uneconomic to run. (Making nitrogen fertilizer involves the Harber process, which is basically all about natural gas.) As a result, productivity will have fallen because plants are simply less active.

    In the long, long run, the development of shale gas in the UK (and in Europe), as well as the Corib field coming on stream on the coast of Ireland (as well as LNG making North American has more expensive) should mean some of these plants return to higher levels of production in the future.
    Thanks, Robert.

    I was beginning to guess that the answer may lie in the refining and petro-chemical derivative sectors.

    The fact that the average output per hour was highest for the C&P sector (and by a wide margin) would mean the average for whole economy/all manufacturing statistics are more sensitive to falls in its output.

    Was also fishing for a response from Charles on whether changes to NHS drug procurement practices and policies may have resulted in loss in value of output in the pharma sector.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Anyone else think that advertising has become tremendously targetted these days ?

    I just had officially licensed Pink Floyd cycling tops pop up on my facebook, my wallet is now lighter !
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    Smarmeron said:

    @AveryLP

    Perhaps the people at the top should share in the austerity, or would that be unchristian?

    That would be like demanding the Pope give up his Vatican apartment, smarmy.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Smarmeron said:

    @AveryLP
    Maybe they should pay workers bribes to increase productivity? It seems to work well in other areas of the industry.

    They do, Comrade, or at least they did when I was working. It was called wages, combined with pride in doing the best job you can.

    I suspect that the idea of taking pride in one's work is not a concept that you recognise, fixed as you seem to be in some 19th century vision of the workplace. However, that pride combined with good leadership is the difference between a business that is going to thrive and survive and one that might stagger on for a few years.

    Bonuses, whether in shares or cash, which is what I think you were getting at should of course be outlawed, especially in the public sector and for board level employees in PLCs. Not because paying people for for doing well is a bad idea but because they produce perverse incentives.
  • FlightpathFlightpath Posts: 4,012
    't infuriates me to see rugby players getting interviewed after match by people who have no concept of what its like to get smashed around a field by giant south africans.'

    Peter West you mean?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    AveryLP
    That would be the less ostentatious lodgings he uses, instead of the opulence of his predecessors?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Peter West you mean?

    Fair enough. I'll get off the soap box now ** looks chastened **
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited July 2014

    't infuriates me to see rugby players getting interviewed after match by people who have no concept of what its like to get smashed around a field by giant south africans.'

    Peter West you mean?

    Suzi Perry ticks all the [admittedly rather shallow] boxes, knowledgable, passionate about motor racing, and darned attractive to boot.

    Clare Balding get's two out of three for the GGs.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AveryLP said:

    Charles said:

    AveryLP said:

    Charles said:

    From Guido, so could bullsh1t, but this is worth people knowing about:

    Andrew Lansley was working the terrace hard yesterday evening, hobnobbing with Tory backbenchers and cabinet ministers alike at the IoD summer party, and really pressing the flesh. Observing the situation from the sidelines a senior government source whispered to Guido that the Leader of the House “doesn’t have a cat in hells chance” of being the UK’s next EU Commissioner. When Guido questioned the veracity of such a claim, the confident reply came “trust me, it’s never going to happen. He thinks it will, but I can assure you it won’t.” Could it be Whitehall bluster, or a diversionary tactic? Or is Lanners really out of the race? We report, you decide…

    http://order-order.com/2014/07/01/senior-gov-source-lansley-out-of-eu-race/

    Now, Charles, enough of this tittle-tattle.

    I have been struggling this morning with ONS's latest release on Labour Productivity.

    Lots of charts and data series all obscuring a clear picture of what is happening.

    But there have been two observable depressors of productivity since the great recession.

    1. Financial Services
    2. Pharmaceuticals and Chemicals.

    Now as you are the only known PBer who works in the former with clients in the latter, I think we are due an explanation coupled with a full and frank personal apology.

    The following link is produced in evidence:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/17_tcm77-368586.png

    Note "20-21" refers to Chemical and Pharmaceutical Products.

    Full ONS release here:

    http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/productivity/labour-productivity/q1-2014/stbq114.html#tab-Labour-Productivity--Q1-2014
    Don't have time to go through the detail, but Sandwich could be a cause?


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-19096215
    Sandwich though was mainly an R&D rather than a production unit.

    Yes, but presumably high productivity as a result (I've been told by someone who attended the relevant Pfizer board meeting that it was their most productive site globally, but they felt the need to close a foreign site rather than one in the US)
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AveryLP said:

    @Charles

    My real question being what is it in the Chemicals and Pharmaceutical Sectors which has caused such rapid loss of productivity.

    A clue may lie in the following snippet from the publication:

    Chemicals & Pharmaceuticals was also top of the distribution for output per hour in 2010 (£77.7), with Wood, paper products, & printing (divisions 16-18) and Basic metals & metal products (divisions 24-25) at the bottom of the distribution. On this basis the average for manufacturing as a whole was £29.4 and the average for the whole economy was £27.9 per hour.

    Has there been a massive drop in value or volume output in the C&P sector?

    could be related to the wave of patent expires over the last 2-3 years
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @HurstLlama
    I will ask you these small points, seeing as no one else deemed to answer.
    Why have the managers in the NHS been awarded a 10% increase when nurses and midwives are getting 1%?
    Why is this repeated throughout our businesses and banking sector?
    And as for people with "assets" making a killing out of QE, and low interest rates? Where did all that wealth come from? the magic money tree perhaps?
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    AveryLP
    That would be the less ostentatious lodgings he uses, instead of the opulence of his predecessors?

    When Argentines come to Europe they become more sensitive to the moderating influences of post socialist sensibility, smarmy.

    After returning to Argentina from Europe, Evita never again appeared in public with the complicated hairdos of her movie star days. The brilliant gold color became more subdued in tone, and even the style changed, her hair being pulled back severely into a heavy braided chignon. Additionally, her extravagant clothing became more refined after the tour. No longer did she wear the elaborate hats and form-fitting dresses of Argentine designers. Soon she adopted simpler and more fashionable Paris couture and became particularly attached to the fashions of Christian Dior and the jewels of Cartier. In an attempt to cultivate a more serious political persona, Eva began to appear in public wearing conservative though stylish tailleurs (a business-like combination of skirts and jackets), which also were made by Dior and other Paris couture houses.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Looks as there is a game of musical chairs on Radio 5, with Fogarty, Derbyshire & Bacon being dropped, replace, encouraged to seek new challenges. However, ITV football coverage may improve by the exit of Chiles to Radio 5.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "... but they felt the need to close a foreign site rather than one in the US..."

    All this inward investment that we keep getting told is so important to a our future prosperity! Strange how often it seems to result in asset striping followed by closure and loss of jobs or, at least, what profits remain being sent off-shore. Still the Chinese are now coming to buy up what is left, they will no doubt be different.
  • Peter West was an outstanding fly half and captained his school side for four undefeated years.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Clare Balding get's two out of three for the GGs.

    Sharon Davies was also two out of three. V Knowledgeable on swimming, scrummy looking, but presentation was a little wooden.

    Denise Lewis could be 3/3. Under used by the BBC I think.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Peter West was an outstanding fly half and captained his school side for four undefeated years.

    Welcome to PB Mr Davenport Avenue.

    According to Wiki - At school he was in the cricket XI for five years, and captain for the last three. He played rugby and hockey for the school for four years, captaining both games for his last two seasons, and, in rugby, leading an undefeated side.

    A natural by the sounds of things and a worthy sports commentator for the Beeb.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    "... but they felt the need to close a foreign site rather than one in the US..."

    All this inward investment that we keep getting told is so important to a our future prosperity! Strange how often it seems to result in asset striping followed by closure and loss of jobs or, at least, what profits remain being sent off-shore. Still the Chinese are now coming to buy up what is left, they will no doubt be different.

    I doubt the workers at the Sunderland Nissan plant share your distrust of inward foreign investment.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    taffys said:

    Clare Balding get's two out of three for the GGs.

    Sharon Davies was also two out of three. V Knowledgeable on swimming, scrummy looking, but presentation was a little wooden.

    Denise Lewis could be 3/3. Under used by the BBC I think.

    IIRC I don't think her occasional tips do too badly either.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,534

    Sean_F said:

    France, too, is far more devout than England.

    Are you sure about that, Sean? I'd be surprised, and I know France very well.
    No more than my impression, but my impression is that there are about a fifth of the population who are far more intensely Catholic than you'd find a fifth of the population here being intensely Protestant. I remember some years ago being in Paris at a time when the Pope was visiting and the place was filled with people who'd turned up to see him. The estimate was around a million. I can't imagine any religious leader drawing that sort of crowd here.

  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    It's these kind of facts that have inspired some senior figures in the British establishment to seek change to current policy on drugs.It ought to be a significant issue in GE2015 because all parties are claiming to be tough on tax evasion but you cannot tackle that without tackling drug policy.

    http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/06/27/this_is_what_12_years_of_failed_drug_policy_looks_like_in_afghanistan
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    AveryLP said:



    Was also fishing for a response from Charles on whether changes to NHS drug procurement practices and policies may have resulted in loss in value of output in the pharma sector.

    They are prescribing cheap sh1t regardless of whether it is best for the patient, if that's what you mean.

    But the impact of patent expires on the value of production will be far greater
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Smarmeron said:

    @HurstLlama
    I will ask you these small points, seeing as no one else deemed to answer.
    Why have the managers in the NHS been awarded a 10% increase when nurses and midwives are getting 1%?
    Why is this repeated throughout our businesses and banking sector?
    And as for people with "assets" making a killing out of QE, and low interest rates? Where did all that wealth come from? the magic money tree perhaps?

    Crikey, Comrade. That is a bit unfair, I gave an honest answer to your question and as a result you hit me with a bunch of statistics that I have never seen before and don't know if they are correct and ask me to comment on them. Not really playing the game there, old chap.

    That said, and leaving aside the numbers you quoted because I have no idea if they are accurate, I will give my views.

    Senior management, indeed management generally, in the public sector is grossly overpaid. There is not and never has been any justifiable excuse for the sort of increases in pay that have been doled out in the past few years, let alone the years before. A town clerk is a town clerk not some mega-executive. How did public sector management get such ridiculous rewards or, more to the point, when did they?

    In the private sector, we see the same process being repeated an, in my view it is also a complete nonsense, especially in PLCs. Too often w have seen super executives on super salary and benefits packages actually destroying companies and yet walking awa y richer than they started. It is crazy, but if shareholders are prepared to put up with it, HMG should keep out.

    As for the magic money tree, consider in work benefits. Employer A can pay his people less than their jobs are worth because the taxpayers will subsidise the workers through in-work benefits. This the Employer can keep more of the profits and get richer as the taxpayer subsidises their flawed business model.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,821
    Sean_F said:

    No more than my impression, but my impression is that there are about a fifth of the population who are far more intensely Catholic than you'd find a fifth of the population here being intensely Protestant. I remember some years ago being in Paris at a time when the Pope was visiting and the place was filled with people who'd turned up to see him. The estimate was around a million. I can't imagine any religious leader drawing that sort of crowd here.

    When Pope John Paul II visited the UK in 1982, "Over 2 million people attended events hosted by the Pope, with the visit said to be the biggest event for British Catholics since their emancipation."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II's_visit_to_the_United_Kingdom

    OK, it was a while back, but bearing in mind the fact that Catholicism is the minority religion in the UK, still pretty remarkable. Of course not everyone who attends such events is necessarily intensely religious.

    Personal note: My maternal uncle was heavily involved in organising that visit, and was appointed a Papal Knight of the Order of St Gregory as a result.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    rcs1000 said:

    "... but they felt the need to close a foreign site rather than one in the US..."

    All this inward investment that we keep getting told is so important to a our future prosperity! Strange how often it seems to result in asset striping followed by closure and loss of jobs or, at least, what profits remain being sent off-shore. Still the Chinese are now coming to buy up what is left, they will no doubt be different.

    I doubt the workers at the Sunderland Nissan plant share your distrust of inward foreign investment.
    True, Mr. 1000. But for every Nissan at Sunderland or Honda at Swindon how many asset stripping operations have their been?
  • Bond_James_BondBond_James_Bond Posts: 1,939

    Peter West was an outstanding fly half and captained his school side for four undefeated years.

    Welcome to PB Mr Davenport Avenue.

    According to Wiki - At school he was in the cricket XI for five years, and captain for the last three. He played rugby and hockey for the school for four years, captaining both games for his last two seasons, and, in rugby, leading an undefeated side.

    A natural by the sounds of things and a worthy sports commentator for the Beeb.
    For a ghastly moment I thought this exchange was about Peter North, of whom shamefully I have heard, rather than Peter West, of whom I haven't.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @volcanopete

    It gets even worse when you realise that the drugs laws mean that poor people in Africa are dying in agony through not being able to get morphine for palliative care.
    We were lumbered with insane laws mainly by the newly fledged American alchohol industry, and abetted by tobacco firms, who got it pushed into international law.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    rcs1000 said:

    "... but they felt the need to close a foreign site rather than one in the US..."

    All this inward investment that we keep getting told is so important to a our future prosperity! Strange how often it seems to result in asset striping followed by closure and loss of jobs or, at least, what profits remain being sent off-shore. Still the Chinese are now coming to buy up what is left, they will no doubt be different.

    I doubt the workers at the Sunderland Nissan plant share your distrust of inward foreign investment.
    True, Mr. 1000. But for every Nissan at Sunderland or Honda at Swindon how many asset stripping operations have their been?
    Care to give us some examples?
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    @HurstLlama
    I am not surprised you are unaware of the statistics comrade, few people do know.
    It's the reason for the "Day of Protest".
    An attempt to get people to realise just what has been going on.

    Your suggestion in a prior thread that they should write letters of has already been tried (as has a refused attempt at ACAS conciliation), people are getting angry with being ignored and told they are better off, when they aren't.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Missed Lord Ashcroft's poll - if you add the LDs at risk to Lab to those at risk to Cons from his previous poll how many are left ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    edited July 2014
    TGOHF said:

    Missed Lord Ashcroft's poll - if you add the LDs at risk to Lab to those at risk to Cons from his previous poll how many are left ?

    Dunno but the Lab-Lib picture looks worse for the Lib Dems than the Con-Lib where the swings are much smaller.

    Ashcroft should have gone much deeper into yellow peril territory, perhaps he will :)
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Smarmeron said:

    @HurstLlama
    I am not surprised you are unaware of the statistics comrade, few people do know.
    It's the reason for the "Day of Protest".
    An attempt to get people to realise just what has been going on.

    Your suggestion in a prior thread that they should write letters of has already been tried (as has a refused attempt at ACAS conciliation), people are getting angry with being ignored and told they are better off, when they aren't.

    its a day where you make your employers and customers suffer for your own vested interests failure at the last election.

    Possibly the most selfish day imaginable.


  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    edited July 2014
    ''People are getting angry with being ignored and told they are better off, when they aren't. ''

    You make a good point, but I haven't seen anything from Labour yet on how they intend to make this better.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    edited July 2014
    TGOF
    All those selfish, lazy skivers making you suffer for a whole day in order to point out they are getting poorer YoY, while the sods that caused the crash trouser wad loads of cash?
    If I didn't believe you were just a troll, I might be tempted to go all "MalcomMG" on you.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014

    Sean_F said:

    No more than my impression, but my impression is that there are about a fifth of the population who are far more intensely Catholic than you'd find a fifth of the population here being intensely Protestant. I remember some years ago being in Paris at a time when the Pope was visiting and the place was filled with people who'd turned up to see him. The estimate was around a million. I can't imagine any religious leader drawing that sort of crowd here.

    When Pope John Paul II visited the UK in 1982, "Over 2 million people attended events hosted by the Pope, with the visit said to be the biggest event for British Catholics since their emancipation."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_Paul_II's_visit_to_the_United_Kingdom

    OK, it was a while back, but bearing in mind the fact that Catholicism is the minority religion in the UK, still pretty remarkable. Of course not everyone who attends such events is necessarily intensely religious.

    Personal note: My maternal uncle was heavily involved in organising that visit, and was appointed a Papal Knight of the Order of St Gregory as a result.
    Richard

    On a much less exalted level I got involved in the 1982 papal visit. It was through supporting a totally mad but utterly charming Irishman who wanted to promote the visit by printing a plastic prayer card with a suitably devotional JPII photo on the front.

    The venture was planned in the dining rooms of the Knights of St Columba Club in leafy Holland Park, a fine building now sadly sold and converted to apartments.

    His launch party for this venture was held in County Hall (also as 'twas) hosted by Ken Livingstone's deputy Illtyd Harrington. It was my first (and only) visit to the Kingdom of Ken.

    Regrettably, Maggie's adventures in the Argentine caused sales of the product to fall far below production and a large write off had to be made to the investment.

    Perhaps I ought to apply in retrospect for a papal knighthood?
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    Smarmeron said:

    TGOF
    All those selfish, lazy skivers making you suffer for a whole day in order to point out they are getting poorer YoY, while the sods that caused the crash trouser wad loads of cash?
    If I didn't believe you were just a troll, I might be tempted to go all "MalcomMG" on you.

    Most of these 'days of inaction' pass by without anyone noticing.

    Makes you wonder what the millions of shirkers are actually doing during the working day.
  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @AveryLP
    Doesn't the pope sell knighthoods like our politicians? A man of your means should be able to afford a papal dutchy without breaking sweat?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Smarmeron said:

    TGOF
    All those selfish, lazy skivers making you suffer for a whole day in order to point out they are getting poorer YoY, while the sods that caused the crash trouser wad loads of cash?
    If I didn't believe you were just a troll, I might be tempted to go all "MalcomMG" on you.

    It's selfish - they want more cash but not enough to move to the private sector as they know its still a generous offer.

    Easily led by their fat cat union leaders - who trouser plenty in good times and bad - who herd them out on small vote turnouts to make a political statement.

    Time for new union laws to limit the powers of these £100k+ pa wreckers.

  • SmarmeronSmarmeron Posts: 5,099
    @TheWatcher

    They do lot's of things, like sweeping up the litter, shoveling shit in the sewers, delivering your babies, looking after your parents while you go seeking profit.
    And that's just for starters. What do you add to the common good except a sneer and an arrogant comment?
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Just reading the many 'liked' posts supporting banning the Burkha in Britain on that right wing rag, the....er.......Guardian.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Smarmeron said:

    @TheWatcher

    They do lot's of things, like sweeping up the litter, shoveling shit in the sewers, delivering your babies, looking after your parents while you go seeking profit.
    And that's just for starters. What do you add to the common good except a sneer and an arrogant comment?

    Oooh its all about the public service... until Len tells me to go on strike then I'm down the pub or out shopping for a nice day out.

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited July 2014
    Smarmeron said:

    @AveryLP
    Doesn't the pope sell knighthoods like our politicians? A man of your means should be able to afford a papal dutchy without breaking sweat?

    I am a meritocrat, smarmy.

    I have informed the Vatican however that Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart had received such an honour by the age of fourteen and I, at some undisclosed multiple of the composer's age, am still awaiting notification.
This discussion has been closed.