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Only a fifth of Britons oppose putting animals on the bank notes instead of Churchill

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  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,655
    Andy_JS said:

    "PolliticsUK
    @PolliticsUK
    🚨 Westminster Voting Intention:

    ➡️ REF: 25% (+2)
    🟢 GRN: 19% (=)
    🌳 CON: 17% (-2)
    🌹 LAB: 17% (=)
    🔶 LDEM: 14% (=)

    From
    @YouGov

    From 15th - 16th March
    Changes with 10th March

    *standard YouGov adjustments"

    https://x.com/PolliticsUK/status/2033810027908092069

    The 'other question' produced the same support figure for Reform.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 13,712

    FPT...

    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    Reeves says she will stop UK Tech drifting abroad.

    So that's another piece of national prosperity fked

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0k16zdr1r1o

    As the article notes one of the attractions abroad is tax breaks. Here, Reeves thinks the government spending more money is the solution. It is the problem in a nutshell.
    She also thinks the EU is the key to our well being. Though how taking on an additional 19000 pieces of regulation is going to help escapes me.

    The woman couldnt spell IQ
    To simplify, British companies currently have to follow 19000 pieces of UK regulation, but if they then want expand into Europe, they have to follow another 19000 pieces of EU regulation. Better then to just align the regulation, so there’s only one set of regulations.
    Regularity alignment would simply force us to be as uncompetitive as the EU. I grant you we're currently there anyway, but there's always a chance of a Government coming in that actually wants the country to succeed.
    Signing up to unknown future EU legislation is absolutely the worst possible option, because every single piece of it will be framed inside the EU as “how we can we use this new law to screw the British?”

    Meanwhile most of the British political class will enjoy being screwed, because to them more EU is ideology over pragmatism.
    This is just a bizarre paranoia. There is one global power out there who has been very explicitly trying to screw us in recent months, and that's the US under Trump. We have good relationships with the EU and the EU understands that both sides can win from easing trade barriers, e.g. through regulatory alignment.
    Some of our careers depend on this needless complexity and friction though. Please think of the poor people working in professional services before you make such callous and unthinking remarks. It's bad enough with AI coming along...

    /s
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,569

    The polish is quickly coming off ol' Merz who afaics seems to vacillate and reverse positions as much as Starmer.

    Katja Hoyer
    @hoyer_kat
    ·
    9m
    Merz is one of the most unpopular German chancellors ever. What's he done to lose trust? Nothing. That's the problem. Voters don't want strategic political caution. They want change. If Merz won't deliver it, they'll look elsewhere, I argue @Bloomberg
    👇

    https://x.com/hoyer_kat/status/2033829405085007934?s=20

    Not many leaders popularity survives a love affair with Netanyahu. Even Starmer has yet to recover from his despite it now having cooled
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,655

    Sean_F said:

    Yougov have Reform 25%, Green 19%, Labour 18%, Con 17%, Lib Dem 14%

    Labour 17% not 18%
    Is the gap between first and fifth shrinking ever more? It's 11% here. It was 40% two years ago.
    GE 2029 Ref 20 Lab 20 Con 20 Green 15 LD 15 incoming........?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 134,732

    HYUFD said:

    The polish is quickly coming off ol' Merz who afaics seems to vacillate and reverse positions as much as Starmer.

    Katja Hoyer
    @hoyer_kat
    ·
    9m
    Merz is one of the most unpopular German chancellors ever. What's he done to lose trust? Nothing. That's the problem. Voters don't want strategic political caution. They want change. If Merz won't deliver it, they'll look elsewhere, I argue @Bloomberg
    👇

    https://x.com/hoyer_kat/status/2033829405085007934?s=20

    Yet the CDU still lead most polls with the SPD a poor third behind the AfD.

    Merz's position is sensible and he is heading for re election as Chancellor comfortably
    But the trend is not your friend.

    Starmer was wildly unpopular by 5/7/24. It has taken Merz a little longer for the shine to come off.
    Merz is heading for easy re election unlike Starmer and no other party will touch the second placed AfD
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457
    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    From about 1725-1943.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,463
    edited 9:50AM
    I remember the days when polling used to be about finding out which party was the most popular.

    Now, it is about finding out which party is the least unpopular.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,569

    HYUFD said:

    The polish is quickly coming off ol' Merz who afaics seems to vacillate and reverse positions as much as Starmer.

    Katja Hoyer
    @hoyer_kat
    ·
    9m
    Merz is one of the most unpopular German chancellors ever. What's he done to lose trust? Nothing. That's the problem. Voters don't want strategic political caution. They want change. If Merz won't deliver it, they'll look elsewhere, I argue @Bloomberg
    👇

    https://x.com/hoyer_kat/status/2033829405085007934?s=20

    You could substitute the word Merz for Starmer too.

    At least Zack is heading to the top of the opinion polls. Some undiluted Marxist student politics government would be welcome in this World of Trumpian insanity.
    No he isn't, Reform still lead the polls and Polanski is still polling well below what Corbyn got
    I said "heading to the top". Reform look like they are in freefall. The Trump factor?
    That would be my guess if I thought Reform voters had the brains to even know who Trump is.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,655
    Andy_JS said:

    HYUFD said:

    The polish is quickly coming off ol' Merz who afaics seems to vacillate and reverse positions as much as Starmer.

    Katja Hoyer
    @hoyer_kat
    ·
    9m
    Merz is one of the most unpopular German chancellors ever. What's he done to lose trust? Nothing. That's the problem. Voters don't want strategic political caution. They want change. If Merz won't deliver it, they'll look elsewhere, I argue @Bloomberg
    👇

    https://x.com/hoyer_kat/status/2033829405085007934?s=20

    You could substitute the word Merz for Starmer too.

    At least Zack is heading to the top of the opinion polls. Some undiluted Marxist student politics government would be welcome in this World of Trumpian insanity.
    No he isn't, Reform still lead the polls and Polanski is still polling well below what Corbyn got
    I said "heading to the top". Reform look like they are in freefall. The Trump factor?
    They've dropped only slightly, and most of that is probably due to losing support to Lowe's party.
    The hollowing out of their VI solidity and Farages personal figures is underway. If they underwhelm in May then a reverse of the polling surge the year before may well follow.
    They have no history or 'big ideaology' to retain the casual and disatisfied
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,092

    Brixian59 said:

    Anyhoo. Where's Bibi?

    Dead hopefully
    Well that's t'internet rumour. Six fingers, no teeth, then teeth. One would have thought Mossad AI would be top drawer.
    The chat that isn't entirely infected by wishfully thinking Bibi is dead is that the Iranian intelligence has proved more intelligent than expected and seem to have a handle on locations of Bibi and family, therefore Mossad has shat it and pumped out laughable AI pr clips while Bibi is interred in a secret Führerbunker somewhere.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,694
    Taz said:

    Eabhal said:

    Rabbits?! This is a list of the least interesting list British fauna. And Hedwig was not a Barn Owl, FFS.

    I'm sure this will be a vicious debate but I'd go for:

    • Hare (mountain or brown)
    • Grey seal (the dolphin murderer variety)
    • Scottish Crossbill
    • Basking Shark
    • Natterjacks
    • Horseshoe bats
    • Caper/Wildcats
    • Manx Shearwater
    Eresus Niger, the ladybird spider. One of our most gorgeous spiders.

    Either that or Dolomedes.
    As at least a nod to days of former glory - surely the Emperor Moth?

    https://butterfly-conservation.org/moths/emperor-moth

  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457

    The decline in the use of coins in everyday life may be good for the NHS, but it's bad for primary school teachers. Mental arithmetic exercises using pounds and pennies, how much change, how many sweets for these coins etc. are now going the way of the rod, pole and perch.

    I teach postgrad students statistics by getting them to flip coins... but I have to bring in coins now because most of them don't have any.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,499
    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,569
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Some good news, UK-Ukraine defence pact:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15xeyny73wo

    If Zelenski has the available capacity to help the US and Israel in their illegal invasion they shouldn't be surprised if the public lose interest in spending their money supporting Zelenski.
    Iran has supplied 60,000 drones to Russia. I think Ukraine is entitled to retaliate.
    I would have thought illegally invaded countries would want to stick together.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,499
    I think Labour's polling figures can only be that bad due to the net effect of its leader, the net effect being very bad.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 19,164
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    First issued 1745, demonetised 1945. Sample here (you need to scroll right to the bottom past the other old denominations).

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/withdrawn-banknotes
    Interesting that Bank of England notes had abstract patterns as their designs for much of the 20thC
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    From about 1725-1943.
    I was late with this reply, so let me try a different banknote fact. I believe our highest ever denomination banknote was £100,000,000 (only used internally).
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,500

    Brixian59 said:

    Anyhoo. Where's Bibi?

    Dead hopefully
    Well that's t'internet rumour. Six fingers, no teeth, then teeth. One would have thought Mossad AI would be top drawer.
    The chat that isn't entirely infected by wishfully thinking Bibi is dead is that the Iranian intelligence has proved more intelligent than expected and seem to have a handle on locations of Bibi and family, therefore Mossad has shat it and pumped out laughable AI pr clips while Bibi is interred in a secret Führerbunker somewhere.
    The Middle East would have prospects if far greater stability, if he, Trump and the young Ayotollh were no longer around.

    The great irony is that if the dying Ayotollah had been allowed to pass naturally and had Netanyahu not taken unilateral action to stop peace talks that were progressing between Iran and US, none of this now irreversible shit show may have happened.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,466
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Some good news, UK-Ukraine defence pact:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15xeyny73wo

    If Zelenski has the available capacity to help the US and Israel in their illegal invasion they shouldn't be surprised if the public lose interest in spending their money supporting Zelenski.
    Iran has supplied 60,000 drones to Russia. I think Ukraine is entitled to retaliate.
    I would have thought illegally invaded countries would want to stick together.
    We seek your wisdom as to which side PBers should support in the Sudan Civil War, and the Afghan-Pakistan conflict?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,917
    edited 10:04AM
    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    Morning all!

    Israeli intelligence..... Mossad ...... has built itself into a very powerful organisation, hasn't it! Perhaps we should worry more about the synagogues here than the mosques, should we find ourselves on a collision course with Israel.


    PS: Anyone who reads that as anti-semitic is looking for something which isn't there!
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 1,500

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    From about 1725-1943.
    In the days when bank notes really were "promisary notes"
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457
    edited 10:06AM
    Andy_JS said:
    It's the same identity ascribed to him in 2008 reporting, so I think the headline is overegging the reveal.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,633
    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Some good news, UK-Ukraine defence pact:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15xeyny73wo

    If Zelenski has the available capacity to help the US and Israel in their illegal invasion they shouldn't be surprised if the public lose interest in spending their money supporting Zelenski.
    Iran has supplied 60,000 drones to Russia. I think Ukraine is entitled to retaliate.
    I have not seen a number before; I am surprised it is that low - albeit if they are Shaheds those can be large, at up to 3.5 wingspan.

    An interesting comparator is that the UK joint venture factory with a Ukrainian company based in a 11,000 sqm factory in Mildenhall could be able to make getting on for that many Octopus interceptor drones per annum from Real Soon Now at a cost of $1000-$2000 each. They are starting at 1,000 month as of "early 2026".

    We supplied 10s of thousands of drones already last year.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,917
    Brixian59 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    From about 1725-1943.
    In the days when bank notes really were "promisary notes"
    I remember the old 'white fivers'.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,526
    MattW said:

    FPT...

    DavidL said:

    Reeves says she will stop UK Tech drifting abroad.

    So that's another piece of national prosperity fked

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c0k16zdr1r1o

    As the article notes one of the attractions abroad is tax breaks. Here, Reeves thinks the government spending more money is the solution. It is the problem in a nutshell.
    She also thinks the EU is the key to our well being. Though how taking on an additional 19000 pieces of regulation is going to help escapes me.

    The woman couldnt spell IQ
    To simplify, British companies currently have to follow 19000 pieces of UK regulation, but if they then want expand into Europe, they have to follow another 19000 pieces of EU regulation. Better then to just align the regulation, so there’s only one set of regulations.
    Regularity alignment would simply force us to be as uncompetitive as the EU. I grant you we're currently there anyway, but there's always a chance of a Government coming in that actually wants the country to succeed.
    I work with digital health start-ups. I write papers on digital health regulation. The companies I know want regulatory alignment. They want easy access to bigger markets. They accept the need for regulation in a safety-critical, health context, but they want clarity: they want to know what they need to do. They also want the promise of a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow: that is, if they jump through the hoops, there will be a reward. The UK going it alone on regulations is not top of their list.
    Brexit Benefit? We get to write an entire extra set of regulations that nobody uses?

    You clearly need to go into regulation writing.
    Business organisations in favour of EU alignment
    BCC, CBI, IOD, NFU, SMMT etc

    in favour of divergence?

    Is there an Organisation of Ebay and Amazon resellers of Chinese manufactured electrical goods?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,466
    MattW said:

    Sean_F said:

    Roger said:

    Some good news, UK-Ukraine defence pact:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15xeyny73wo

    If Zelenski has the available capacity to help the US and Israel in their illegal invasion they shouldn't be surprised if the public lose interest in spending their money supporting Zelenski.
    Iran has supplied 60,000 drones to Russia. I think Ukraine is entitled to retaliate.
    I have not seen a number before; I am surprised it is that low - albeit if they are Shaheds those can be large, at up to 3.5 wingspan.

    An interesting comparator is that the UK joint venture factory with a Ukrainian company based in a 11,000 sqm factory in Mildenhall could be able to make getting on for that many Octopus interceptor drones per annum from Real Soon Now at a cost of $1000-$2000 each. They are starting at 1,000 month as of "early 2026".

    We supplied 10s of thousands of drones already last year.
    "He will make an excellent drone!"
  • RattersRatters Posts: 1,879
    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457

    Brixian59 said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    From about 1725-1943.
    In the days when bank notes really were "promisary notes"
    I remember the old 'white fivers'.
    I can only remember as far back as the green £1 notes.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,802
    edited 10:15AM
    The two most interesting results to me in the polling are:

    1. That Green voters are so easily swayed by use of the prefix "wild" before rabbits.
    2. That for an island nation the watery options (dolphins, seals, otters) do so badly.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 18,015
    Ratters said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
    Also eliminates people for the Americans to negotiate with, which may be the real aim.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 9,803

    Brixian59 said:

    Anyhoo. Where's Bibi?

    Dead hopefully
    Well that's t'internet rumour. Six fingers, no teeth, then teeth. One would have thought Mossad AI would be top drawer.

    Netanyahu released this video of him at a coffee shop in Jerusalem yesterday.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457
    Ratters said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
    It's like the debate around the Great Man theory of history. Does one individual ever make a difference? There's an argument that replacing Khamenei snr with Khamenei jnr has made a real difference: a bad one, in that Khamenei snr would, without the US/Israeli attack, have died in a few years and would possibly have been replaced with someone less hardline than his son without the context of a war going on.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,092
    edited 10:14AM

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    Morning all!

    Israeli intelligence..... Mossad ...... has built itself into a very powerful organisation, hasn't it! Perhaps we should worry more about the synagogues here than the mosques, should we find ourselves on a collision course with Israel.


    PS: Anyone who reads that as anti-semitic is looking for something which isn't there!
    Just imagine if the Muslim Council of Britain (or even a random Imam) talked about 'our' heroic troops in Iran.

    “..we can be proud of our values. Which other Army in the world puts its own soldiers at risk in the effort to minimise casualties amongst innocent civilians?” He had already said: “the Jewish people is showing incredible strength at this trying time – none more so than our heroic soldiers”
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457
    Barnesian said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Anyhoo. Where's Bibi?

    Dead hopefully
    Well that's t'internet rumour. Six fingers, no teeth, then teeth. One would have thought Mossad AI would be top drawer.

    Netanyahu released this video of him at a coffee shop in Jerusalem yesterday.
    Wow, hard to believe that an Internet rumour turned out to be nonsense. Whatever next?
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,802
    I see that the Ukraine-led team defeated the other team in recent NATO naval exercises. Europe needs Ukraine as much as the other way around. There armed forces seem to be many steps ahead of Europe's.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,569
    edited 10:15AM
    Interesting look at American Christian Zionism. Not a pretty sight (Ed)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evtMRyCWBo8
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457

    I see that the Ukraine-led team defeated the other team in recent NATO naval exercises. Europe needs Ukraine as much as the other way around. There armed forces seem to be many steps ahead of Europe's.

    You get good at doing something by doing it a lot.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 22,569

    Barnesian said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Anyhoo. Where's Bibi?

    Dead hopefully
    Well that's t'internet rumour. Six fingers, no teeth, then teeth. One would have thought Mossad AI would be top drawer.

    Netanyahu released this video of him at a coffee shop in Jerusalem yesterday.
    Wow, hard to believe that an Internet rumour turned out to be nonsense. Whatever next?
    Just a case of if you wish for something hard enough......
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,652
    Nigelb said:

    But enough of the nattering nabobs of negativity.

    https://x.com/SebJohnsonUK/status/2033499266715369549
    Prior to 2026 the UK had never minted a Unicorn in Defence.

    It has now minted two in two months.

    One of them hasn't even announced it publicly.

    The first is UK-Ukrainian UFORCE, which develops autonomous systems across air, sea and land, and has supported more than 150,000 missions during the war in Ukraine.

    It has just raised a $50m seed at a $1bn+ valuation.

    The second is
    @roark_aerospace
    . The company intentionally keeps an incredibly low profile and chose not to announce its recent $210m Series B.

    It did $197m of revenue last year and is on track to do $400m this year.

    It is great to see the UK finally waking up to the need to build and back defence companies.

    Right now, there are idiots writing memos to the effect that

    - this damages the defense industry plan*
    - this isn’t good for the existing, too big to fail, defence firms**
    - risks upsetting “international partners” by undermining *their* sales

    *yes, really
    **see the Spearfish torpedo upgrade.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,802

    Sean_F said:

    Yougov have Reform 25%, Green 19%, Labour 18%, Con 17%, Lib Dem 14%

    Labour 17% not 18%
    Is the gap between first and fifth shrinking ever more? It's 11% here. It was 40% two years ago.
    GE 2029 Ref 20 Lab 20 Con 20 Green 15 LD 15 incoming........?
    Maybe 21, 20, 19, 18, 17 - but don't ask me to give the party order.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,669
    Ratters said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
    With AI, the new Khameini can probably give edicts having left this mortal coil for many years.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,694

    I see that the Ukraine-led team defeated the other team in recent NATO naval exercises. Europe needs Ukraine as much as the other way around. There armed forces seem to be many steps ahead of Europe's.

    You get good at doing something by doing it a lot.
    - and with your life on the line.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,652

    I see that the Ukraine-led team defeated the other team in recent NATO naval exercises. Europe needs Ukraine as much as the other way around. There armed forces seem to be many steps ahead of Europe's.

    You get good at doing something by doing it a lot.
    There is also the well documented phenomenon of militaries in peace time preparing for the wars they want to fight.

    See the French, pre WWII
    Or indeed, the saga of Corporal Hobart of the Home Guard.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,802

    I see that the Ukraine-led team defeated the other team in recent NATO naval exercises. Europe needs Ukraine as much as the other way around. There armed forces seem to be many steps ahead of Europe's.

    You get good at doing something by doing it a lot.
    An implication of that is that - given Russia haven't been swept from Ukraine - the Russian army is now likely way more capable than European armies, despite all the equipment and soldiers that it has lost.

    Not sure that the British army in Estonia would last that long against Russian drone teams.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,499
    Ratters said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
    They do matter to a point if combined with other targets such as comms. The reality of most of the last couple of weeks or so is that the Iranians have had a major issues getting central control of their forces. Part of that was the killing of so many top level personnel so early. Its the reason why you had missiles spinning off all over the place, no central control and indeed poor local control of some commanders on the ground. Some of them did their job ok, but plenty didn't. This idea that they sent the orders down and it would be fine didnt work out anywhere near as effectively as it could. Take the Straits of Hormuz, who and what really closed it? In the first days there was no central order, it was essentially self imposed by the shipping companies and insurers as much as actual visible threat after some mid ranking IRGC guys said so.

    The Iranian leadership is at odds with itself and each gap created is an argument over who fills it. The survival strategy until the USA gets bored has its limits, those who will see their country turn to dust in the process and those who don't want that. You have people running diplomacy in the background whilst others are saying no to it.

    Finally, you cant take away the importance of experienced leadership and the structures built around and by those specific leaders. They go, that structure wobbles which creates problems for their external effort because some of these boys are very capable. It also stokes internal conflict. Sometimes guys at the top are at the top because they are good, and those below arent at the top because they arent as good.

    Larijani is a good example of this, big big structure around him, effectively a family faction. Also a man who knows, or now perhaps knew, his onions.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,694
    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    Presumably referencing Iran’s security chief Ali Larijani...
  • stodgestodge Posts: 16,285

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm in a minority here (as usual) - I think Starmer is doing reasonably well - but the problem is the contempt is so embedded among some it will always come out as opposition. Even when Starmer gets it right, plenty will say he's getting it wrong and that's probably going to be the case to the minute he leaves 10 Downing Street and some will be still having a go as his car reaches the Palace.

    Clipped for reply....
    Ive never liked him and i know im a bit of a waspish wasp, however to explain where i think the contempt comes from....
    There is zero accountability with him. Nothing ever crosses his desk, nothing is his fault. Or, worse, he says 'i take responsibility' (mandy appointment) and then has his CoS removed and says the "process' wasnt robust enough. Then follow a more robust one! If theres a rickety bridge over a gorge with no handrail you dont just assume its safe because 'thats the process for crossing'
    Nothing crosses his desk, everything is a chance to talk about his alleged hardships, everybody else pays and process trumps all, even results.
    His inability to deal with problems because he has to follow process will be his epitaph. He will walk to his own political demise because there was a signpost telling him he must
    I simply don't share that view.

    I have been disappointed inasmuch as, like Blair, he had a real mandate for change (you can whinge and call it a "loveless landslide" if you like but in this country elections are won by seats not votes - if, under a PR system, he'd ended up with 250 seats in the Commons, it would have been different).

    Yet I was under no illusions "change" meant anything - he had no ideological programme for radical change - in truth, the centre left is as bankrupt as the centre right and has been since 2008 in terms of a practical growth-inspiring economic policy (to be fair, the populists have no answers either even though they claim they do).

    MY hope was he and his administration would manage the quasi-social democratic post-Thatcherite concensus better than the Conservatives who in 14 years of leading the Government achieved little or nothing and whose antics in 2020 have destroyed the public finances as effectively as Brown did in the run up to 2008.

    How accountable is any Prime Minister in truth - to Cabinet, to Parliament, ultimately only to the electorate? When you have a huge majority of MPs beholden to you, you have serious power.

    I don't think "process" as you and @Malmesbury term it, began on July 5th 2024. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with "process" is apart from it takes longer to do things. If you have unregulated and uncontrolled activity you end up with situations like the Eastgate building near Woking Station:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c338k2d6ev4o
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 35,407
    60 seconds of genius cricket satire from some Indian children and an England commentary (icymi)
    https://x.com/nibraz88cricket/status/2033424409621643390

    Shame none of the comments identify its origin but...
  • The_WoodpeckerThe_Woodpecker Posts: 556

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    First issued 1745, demonetised 1945. Sample here (you need to scroll right to the bottom past the other old denominations).

    https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/withdrawn-banknotes
    Having £1,000 banknotes would make me pro-cash, it'd be equivalent of my AMEX Centurion chargecard.
    Fun fact for you:

    They were demonetised after the Allies found the Nazis had produced around £300 million of near-perfect fake notes, especially £5 notes, which they used to fund the theft and extortion of all Europe, plus enormous amounts of espionage activity (because people trusted the British pound rather more than the Reichsmark or their own local currencies). It was called Operation Bernhard. This was made materially easier by the fact the old notes were printed on one side of simple paper, and although they had watermarks they were not standard from note to note making them pretty much useless as a security measure.

    As a result, the Bank of England had to hurriedly design new notes with some half-decent security features.
    Good tv series with Michael Elphick I recall.
    Operation Bernhard features in the new Peaky Blinders film which I will not be bothering with.
    Private Shulz.
  • YokesYokes Posts: 1,499

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    Presumably referencing Iran’s security chief Ali Larijani...
    Believed to be yes but they have also reportedly taken out a top layer IRGC guy as well. Unclear if it was a single incident or separate.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 67,151
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    The purpose of rabbits is to be eaten by more important animals.

    Hares are the superior leporid.

    But, but Bright Eyes. And sundry Potter characters like Peter.
    Of all the Potter characters, Ginger and Pickles deserve a spot on a bank note.
    Their example is a salutary warning of the dangers of unlimited credit.
    Controversial. Surely that is government policy (and not just of this government to be fair)?
    I thought you were of the Tabitha Twitchit tendency ?
    Nah, I learned a long time ago to laugh at the absurdities and vicissitudes of life. Crying gets you nowhere.
    Wanking is always good, too
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,808

    Sean_F said:

    Yougov have Reform 25%, Green 19%, Labour 18%, Con 17%, Lib Dem 14%

    Labour 17% not 18%
    Is the gap between first and fifth shrinking ever more? It's 11% here. It was 40% two years ago.
    GE 2029 Ref 20 Lab 20 Con 20 Green 15 LD 15 incoming........?
    Maybe 21, 20, 19, 18, 17 - but don't ask me to give the party order.
    Moving from current figures to GE outcome (the locals are different, with less tactical voting) is obviously complicated. The actual numbers, I suggest, matter less than the Left of Centre/Right of Centre split - where LOC tends to be slightly ahead - and tactical voting by LOC voters. Because of history and being current holder in +400 seats, it is likely that a lot of tactical LOC votes end up with Labour, especially in England outside the LD (100 seat max) Gails/Waitrose belt.

    My working assumption is that Labour over performing in 2029 is baked in; the Right Of Centre situation being currently far too fluid to tell.

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,466
    What have the LDs got against rabbits?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,652
    edited 10:40AM
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm in a minority here (as usual) - I think Starmer is doing reasonably well - but the problem is the contempt is so embedded among some it will always come out as opposition. Even when Starmer gets it right, plenty will say he's getting it wrong and that's probably going to be the case to the minute he leaves 10 Downing Street and some will be still having a go as his car reaches the Palace.

    Clipped for reply....
    Ive never liked him and i know im a bit of a waspish wasp, however to explain where i think the contempt comes from....
    There is zero accountability with him. Nothing ever crosses his desk, nothing is his fault. Or, worse, he says 'i take responsibility' (mandy appointment) and then has his CoS removed and says the "process' wasnt robust enough. Then follow a more robust one! If theres a rickety bridge over a gorge with no handrail you dont just assume its safe because 'thats the process for crossing'
    Nothing crosses his desk, everything is a chance to talk about his alleged hardships, everybody else pays and process trumps all, even results.
    His inability to deal with problems because he has to follow process will be his epitaph. He will walk to his own political demise because there was a signpost telling him he must
    I simply don't share that view.

    I have been disappointed inasmuch as, like Blair, he had a real mandate for change (you can whinge and call it a "loveless landslide" if you like but in this country elections are won by seats not votes - if, under a PR system, he'd ended up with 250 seats in the Commons, it would have been different).

    Yet I was under no illusions "change" meant anything - he had no ideological programme for radical change - in truth, the centre left is as bankrupt as the centre right and has been since 2008 in terms of a practical growth-inspiring economic policy (to be fair, the populists have no answers either even though they claim they do).

    MY hope was he and his administration would manage the quasi-social democratic post-Thatcherite concensus better than the Conservatives who in 14 years of leading the Government achieved little or nothing and whose antics in 2020 have destroyed the public finances as effectively as Brown did in the run up to 2008.

    How accountable is any Prime Minister in truth - to Cabinet, to Parliament, ultimately only to the electorate? When you have a huge majority of MPs beholden to you, you have serious power.

    I don't think "process" as you and @Malmesbury term it, began on July 5th 2024. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with "process" is apart from it takes longer to do things. If you have unregulated and uncontrolled activity you end up with situations like the Eastgate building near Woking Station:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c338k2d6ev4o
    The problem comes when Process becomes the end, and not the means.

    The classic put-down, these days is that “no process = chaos”. Yes it does. But excessive love of process above outcomes leads to chaos as well.

    Grenfell burnt down with metric tons of docs proving it was environmentally friendly, planned well, rebuilt brilliantly. Oh, and was completely tip top on the fire angle. But “The Forms Were Obeyed”

    Starmer’s problem is that he seems to exist as an implementer of process. His job, according the U.K. constitution is to re-write process, where required.

    Watching as parts of the house building sector stall, during a housing crisis, is a negative.

    See the recent decisions on the nuclear power station planning regieme for a positive.

    Edit: on the building you linked to. The documentation for the build was tip top as well. The problem with the concrete is a widespread issue. Buildings are being found with inadequate structure all the time. Because testing samples of the concrete during construction didn’t happen. Instead we have rooms full of paper saying it’s all great.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 5,176
    edited 10:38AM
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm in a minority here (as usual) - I think Starmer is doing reasonably well - but the problem is the contempt is so embedded among some it will always come out as opposition. Even when Starmer gets it right, plenty will say he's getting it wrong and that's probably going to be the case to the minute he leaves 10 Downing Street and some will be still having a go as his car reaches the Palace.

    Clipped for reply....
    Ive never liked him and i know im a bit of a waspish wasp, however to explain where i think the contempt comes from....
    There is zero accountability with him. Nothing ever crosses his desk, nothing is his fault. Or, worse, he says 'i take responsibility' (mandy appointment) and then has his CoS removed and says the "process' wasnt robust enough. Then follow a more robust one! If theres a rickety bridge over a gorge with no handrail you dont just assume its safe because 'thats the process for crossing'
    Nothing crosses his desk, everything is a chance to talk about his alleged hardships, everybody else pays and process trumps all, even results.
    His inability to deal with problems because he has to follow process will be his epitaph. He will walk to his own political demise because there was a signpost telling him he must
    I simply don't share that view.

    I have been disappointed inasmuch as, like Blair, he had a real mandate for change (you can whinge and call it a "loveless landslide" if you like but in this country elections are won by seats not votes - if, under a PR system, he'd ended up with 250 seats in the Commons, it would have been different).

    Yet I was under no illusions "change" meant anything - he had no ideological programme for radical change - in truth, the centre left is as bankrupt as the centre right and has been since 2008 in terms of a practical growth-inspiring economic policy (to be fair, the populists have no answers either even though they claim they do).

    MY hope was he and his administration would manage the quasi-social democratic post-Thatcherite concensus better than the Conservatives who in 14 years of leading the Government achieved little or nothing and whose antics in 2020 have destroyed the public finances as effectively as Brown did in the run up to 2008.

    How accountable is any Prime Minister in truth - to Cabinet, to Parliament, ultimately only to the electorate? When you have a huge majority of MPs beholden to you, you have serious power.

    I don't think "process" as you and @Malmesbury term it, began on July 5th 2024. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with "process" is apart from it takes longer to do things. If you have unregulated and uncontrolled activity you end up with situations like the Eastgate building near Woking Station:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c338k2d6ev4o
    The comments on Chris Mason's BBC article are, rather unusually, very pro-Starmer. A lot of them are along the lines of "I don't like him at all, but he's been spot on in his dealings with Trump. Credit where credit is due."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9e0zr5qy2o
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,694
    kinabalu said:

    What have the LDs got against rabbits?

    Nothing. As long as bunnies can (and will) go to France...
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,808

    I remember the days when polling used to be about finding out which party was the most popular.

    Now, it is about finding out which party is the least unpopular.

    At the moment polling is as much about alliances and wider group identity as it is about party. Being Left of Centre and Right of Centre is not unpopular. This is likely to be of great relevance to the 2029 outcome. While the Left of Centre hates the government, it doesn't hate the Labour party as such as a long term political project.

    Right Of Centre seems to me in greater trouble. Policywise, Reform in fact are all over the place in ways which matter. The Tories are split, in a way which may be beyond recovery between being reformlite and being the centre right serious grey suit people. The split makes it less attractive to both groups.

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 6,077
    edited 10:49AM
    kinabalu said:

    What have the LDs got against rabbits?

    Deleted: total misread of the survey
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,001
    Barnesian said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Anyhoo. Where's Bibi?

    Dead hopefully
    Well that's t'internet rumour. Six fingers, no teeth, then teeth. One would have thought Mossad AI would be top drawer.

    Netanyahu released this video of him at a coffee shop in Jerusalem yesterday.
    What was the result - does he genuinely have six fingers? :wink:

    I do feel sorry for people with any unusual physical characteristics, they're going to have a hell of a time convincing people they're not AI generated!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,808

    kinabalu said:

    What have the LDs got against rabbits?

    Nothing. As long as bunnies can (and will) go to France...
    That trial was 47 years ago. Feels both yesterday and ancient history
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,946
    If we needed any more proof Reform voters are poor decision makers then 48% of them wanting my mug on a banknote is surely conclusive.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,168

    Ratters said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
    It's like the debate around the Great Man theory of history. Does one individual ever make a difference? There's an argument that replacing Khamenei snr with Khamenei jnr has made a real difference: a bad one, in that Khamenei snr would, without the US/Israeli attack, have died in a few years and would possibly have been replaced with someone less hardline than his son without the context of a war going on.
    I think the other factor people often miss is the personal. Now we have a leader in Iran who knows the US/Israel killed his father. That surely makes peace/compromise/de-escalation less likely.


  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,917

    kinabalu said:

    What have the LDs got against rabbits?

    Nothing. As long as bunnies can (and will) go to France...
    That's going back a bit!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 9,168

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm in a minority here (as usual) - I think Starmer is doing reasonably well - but the problem is the contempt is so embedded among some it will always come out as opposition. Even when Starmer gets it right, plenty will say he's getting it wrong and that's probably going to be the case to the minute he leaves 10 Downing Street and some will be still having a go as his car reaches the Palace.

    Clipped for reply....
    Ive never liked him and i know im a bit of a waspish wasp, however to explain where i think the contempt comes from....
    There is zero accountability with him. Nothing ever crosses his desk, nothing is his fault. Or, worse, he says 'i take responsibility' (mandy appointment) and then has his CoS removed and says the "process' wasnt robust enough. Then follow a more robust one! If theres a rickety bridge over a gorge with no handrail you dont just assume its safe because 'thats the process for crossing'
    Nothing crosses his desk, everything is a chance to talk about his alleged hardships, everybody else pays and process trumps all, even results.
    His inability to deal with problems because he has to follow process will be his epitaph. He will walk to his own political demise because there was a signpost telling him he must
    I simply don't share that view.

    I have been disappointed inasmuch as, like Blair, he had a real mandate for change (you can whinge and call it a "loveless landslide" if you like but in this country elections are won by seats not votes - if, under a PR system, he'd ended up with 250 seats in the Commons, it would have been different).

    Yet I was under no illusions "change" meant anything - he had no ideological programme for radical change - in truth, the centre left is as bankrupt as the centre right and has been since 2008 in terms of a practical growth-inspiring economic policy (to be fair, the populists have no answers either even though they claim they do).

    MY hope was he and his administration would manage the quasi-social democratic post-Thatcherite concensus better than the Conservatives who in 14 years of leading the Government achieved little or nothing and whose antics in 2020 have destroyed the public finances as effectively as Brown did in the run up to 2008.

    How accountable is any Prime Minister in truth - to Cabinet, to Parliament, ultimately only to the electorate? When you have a huge majority of MPs beholden to you, you have serious power.

    I don't think "process" as you and @Malmesbury term it, began on July 5th 2024. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with "process" is apart from it takes longer to do things. If you have unregulated and uncontrolled activity you end up with situations like the Eastgate building near Woking Station:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c338k2d6ev4o
    The comments on Chris Mason's BBC article are, rather unusually, very pro-Starmer. A lot of them are along the lines of "I don't like him at all, but he's been spot on in his dealings with Trump. Credit where credit is due."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9e0zr5qy2o
    Hopefully his team will notice this and realise his route to re-election relies on him looking strong and anti-Trump.

    Yes there are downsides to that, but the downsides are what make the position meaningful and mean people take notice.
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,897
    Ratters said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
    The system adapts too. As with Hezbollah, the assassination campaign is evolutionary pressure, it forces the organisation to be better at decentralising and transition efficiently to a new figurehead as each is killed.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,267

    AnneJGP said:

    ydoethur said:

    Other suggestions:

    £50 notes should have a stag and a hind on them, so anything you buy with them is two deer.

    We should bring back £1000 banknotes and have rhinos on them, both to honour the slang term for money from the eighteenth century and because it would give numismatists the horn.

    One pound notes should be for 105 pence and have a certain type of fowl on them.

    When did we have £1000 banknotes? I wasn't aware they were ever a thing.
    From about 1725-1943.
    I was late with this reply, so let me try a different banknote fact. I believe our highest ever denomination banknote was £100,000,000 (only used internally).
    It still exists- called a Titan- and is used to back the notes issued by the Scottish banks. There is also the Giant, a one million pound note, also used for internally accounting at the Bank of England.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,946
    Selebian said:

    Barnesian said:

    Brixian59 said:

    Anyhoo. Where's Bibi?

    Dead hopefully
    Well that's t'internet rumour. Six fingers, no teeth, then teeth. One would have thought Mossad AI would be top drawer.

    Netanyahu released this video of him at a coffee shop in Jerusalem yesterday.
    What was the result - does he genuinely have six fingers? :wink:

    I do feel sorry for people with any unusual physical characteristics, they're going to have a hell of a time convincing people they're not AI generated!
    It is quite plausible we are all genuinely AI generated.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,655
    edited 11:00AM
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm in a minority here (as usual) - I think Starmer is doing reasonably well - but the problem is the contempt is so embedded among some it will always come out as opposition. Even when Starmer gets it right, plenty will say he's getting it wrong and that's probably going to be the case to the minute he leaves 10 Downing Street and some will be still having a go as his car reaches the Palace.

    Clipped for reply....
    Ive never liked him and i know im a bit of a waspish wasp, however to explain where i think the contempt comes from....
    There is zero accountability with him. Nothing ever crosses his desk, nothing is his fault. Or, worse, he says 'i take responsibility' (mandy appointment) and then has his CoS removed and says the "process' wasnt robust enough. Then follow a more robust one! If theres a rickety bridge over a gorge with no handrail you dont just assume its safe because 'thats the process for crossing'
    Nothing crosses his desk, everything is a chance to talk about his alleged hardships, everybody else pays and process trumps all, even results.
    His inability to deal with problems because he has to follow process will be his epitaph. He will walk to his own political demise because there was a signpost telling him he must
    I simply don't share that view.

    I have been disappointed inasmuch as, like Blair, he had a real mandate for change (you can whinge and call it a "loveless landslide" if you like but in this country elections are won by seats not votes - if, under a PR system, he'd ended up with 250 seats in the Commons, it would have been different).

    Yet I was under no illusions "change" meant anything - he had no ideological programme for radical change - in truth, the centre left is as bankrupt as the centre right and has been since 2008 in terms of a practical growth-inspiring economic policy (to be fair, the populists have no answers either even though they claim they do).

    MY hope was he and his administration would manage the quasi-social democratic post-Thatcherite concensus better than the Conservatives who in 14 years of leading the Government achieved little or nothing and whose antics in 2020 have destroyed the public finances as effectively as Brown did in the run up to 2008.

    How accountable is any Prime Minister in truth - to Cabinet, to Parliament, ultimately only to the electorate? When you have a huge majority of MPs beholden to you, you have serious power.

    I don't think "process" as you and @Malmesbury term it, began on July 5th 2024. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with "process" is apart from it takes longer to do things. If you have unregulated and uncontrolled activity you end up with situations like the Eastgate building near Woking Station:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c338k2d6ev4o
    I get that you dont share the view, Stodge. I was attempting to explain why some may have unreconcilable contempt for him.
    My problem with 'process' is that Starmer clearly cannot function without rigidly following it. Sometimes you have to act on the fly. You cant make an omelette without telling the ICJ to fuck off etc
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 36,917
    algarkirk said:

    I remember the days when polling used to be about finding out which party was the most popular.

    Now, it is about finding out which party is the least unpopular.

    At the moment polling is as much about alliances and wider group identity as it is about party. Being Left of Centre and Right of Centre is not unpopular. This is likely to be of great relevance to the 2029 outcome. While the Left of Centre hates the government, it doesn't hate the Labour party as such as a long term political project.

    Right Of Centre seems to me in greater trouble. Policywise, Reform in fact are all over the place in ways which matter. The Tories are split, in a way which may be beyond recovery between being reformlite and being the centre right serious grey suit people. The split makes it less attractive to both groups.

    The last traces of the squirearchy died around 1960 and similarly the local industrialists died out a few years later. That left the Conservatives without their basic alliance.
    Similarly, to be fair, the trade unions ceased to be the 'big beasts' they had been in the 80's which left Labour reliant on the universities.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 13,304

    The polish is quickly coming off ol' Merz who afaics seems to vacillate and reverse positions as much as Starmer.

    Katja Hoyer
    @hoyer_kat
    ·
    9m
    Merz is one of the most unpopular German chancellors ever. What's he done to lose trust? Nothing. That's the problem. Voters don't want strategic political caution. They want change. If Merz won't deliver it, they'll look elsewhere, I argue @Bloomberg
    👇

    https://x.com/hoyer_kat/status/2033829405085007934?s=20

    Some close friends of mine have bought a second home outside Munich as they're worried Germany's going to shit. The second home is in Herne Bay. And they're not even that right wing. Pick the bones out of that one.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,267
    Roger said:

    Some good news, UK-Ukraine defence pact:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15xeyny73wo

    If Zelenski has the available capacity to help the US and Israel in their illegal invasion they shouldn't be surprised if the public lose interest in spending their money supporting Zelenski.
    A ridiculous statement.

    Iran has been providing missiles to kill Ukrainian civilians for several years. I hold no brief for Trump or this war, but mixing the Ukrainian legitimate right of self defence and the presumed illegality of the Israeli and American attacks only benefits Putin, who remains a far bigger criminal even when compared with Bibi and increasingly Trump.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,946
    algarkirk said:

    I remember the days when polling used to be about finding out which party was the most popular.

    Now, it is about finding out which party is the least unpopular.

    At the moment polling is as much about alliances and wider group identity as it is about party. Being Left of Centre and Right of Centre is not unpopular. This is likely to be of great relevance to the 2029 outcome. While the Left of Centre hates the government, it doesn't hate the Labour party as such as a long term political project.

    Right Of Centre seems to me in greater trouble. Policywise, Reform in fact are all over the place in ways which matter. The Tories are split, in a way which may be beyond recovery between being reformlite and being the centre right serious grey suit people. The split makes it less attractive to both groups.

    "At the moment" may be the new normal rather than a temporary phase. A reflection of social media and the ability of the media owners ability to pit group against group for their financial and political advantage.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 22,276
    Andy_JS said:
    Entirely boring story. It would only be exciting if Bansksy turned out to be someone who the public already knew, such as Thora Heard, or Nigel Farage...
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,655
    edited 11:00AM

    Sean_F said:

    Yougov have Reform 25%, Green 19%, Labour 18%, Con 17%, Lib Dem 14%

    Labour 17% not 18%
    Is the gap between first and fifth shrinking ever more? It's 11% here. It was 40% two years ago.
    GE 2029 Ref 20 Lab 20 Con 20 Green 15 LD 15 incoming........?
    Maybe 21, 20, 19, 18, 17 - but don't ask me to give the party order.
    Con Gain Beckenham and Penge and lose Arundel and the South Downs
    Labour hold Derbyshire Dales and lose Bootle
    Etc
    Fun times
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,694

    kinabalu said:

    What have the LDs got against rabbits?

    Nothing. As long as bunnies can (and will) go to France...
    That's going back a bit!
    The Thorpe series "A Very English Scandal" was 2018, so much more recent.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,633
    ydoethur said:

    How did I guess that TSE would make silly remarks about coins in a thread about notes?

    He should really be campaigning for better punning opportunities. So, for example, should Scottish notes have thistles on them so when we accept them we can say "thistle do nicely?'

    Or five pound notes feature heroic figures from the past, notably Lady Godiva? While ten pound notes could feature Wyn Evans. Recast the £20 note as £25 and have Valegro on the front of it.

    Lady Godiva should be the watermark, such that ogling 12 year old boys with magnifying glasses raised can be publicly humiliated when holding one up to a window.

    I think our West British expert needs some education by our North British experts.

    As I understand it, Scottish Banknotes already carry thistles, so you have been missing an opportunity to say "thistle do nicely" for decades, everywhere they are accepted, or aren't accepted - at which point your interlocuter can go Panto: "Oh NO IT WON'T".

    Here's the current North British £50 note, complete with "Four Thistles".



    We need Four Candles on at least one of them, with fork handles, and as many elements as possible.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,655

    Andy_JS said:
    Entirely boring story. It would only be exciting if Bansksy turned out to be someone who the public already knew, such as Thora Heard, or Nigel Farage...
    If he was Thora Hird theres been some serious progress in deceased art, lol
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,717
    Guardian says Reform are about to announce a public lottery funded by them where the winner gets free energy for a year.

    Is this treating?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,224
    edited 11:08AM
    RIP Len Deighton.
    Superb writer.

    (Rumours of the Funeral in Berlin are untrue.)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,717

    Andy_JS said:
    Entirely boring story. It would only be exciting if Bansksy turned out to be someone who the public already knew, such as Thora Heard, or Nigel Farage...
    If he was Thora Hird theres been some serious progress in deceased art, lol
    Amusing to imagine who would be the least likely living person to be Banksy?

    Starmer comes to mind. Nipping out from No 10 in the dead of night.

    This is why of course there is never any new Banksy artwork completed over a Friday night.

  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,526

    Guardian says Reform are about to announce a public lottery funded by them where the winner gets free energy for a year.

    Is this treating?

    Reported elsewhere, apparently Electoral Commission are unable to monitor political donations made in crypto currency as they're unable to compel parties to give them the wallet details.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,875

    Guardian says Reform are about to announce a public lottery funded by them where the winner gets free energy for a year.

    Is this treating?

    Probably not, but it's a very cheap way of getting a load of contact details. (A few thousand, tops?)
    Didn't Domski mastermind something a lot more eyecatching during the referendum campaign?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,717
    DougSeal said:

    The polish is quickly coming off ol' Merz who afaics seems to vacillate and reverse positions as much as Starmer.

    Katja Hoyer
    @hoyer_kat
    ·
    9m
    Merz is one of the most unpopular German chancellors ever. What's he done to lose trust? Nothing. That's the problem. Voters don't want strategic political caution. They want change. If Merz won't deliver it, they'll look elsewhere, I argue @Bloomberg
    👇

    https://x.com/hoyer_kat/status/2033829405085007934?s=20

    Some close friends of mine have bought a second home outside Munich as they're worried Germany's going to shit. The second home is in Herne Bay. And they're not even that right wing. Pick the bones out of that one.
    Well, I suppose it's fair to say that German's track record on not "going to shit" is not exactly stellar.

  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 10,001

    Guardian says Reform are about to announce a public lottery funded by them where the winner gets free energy for a year.

    Is this treating?

    Greens should counter with a lottery where the winner gets comprehensive solar plus battery - free energy for life* :wink:

    *yes, I know - winter etc, though I imagine with a decent amount of storage it might be possible to get to 'net zero' for energy costs, by buying extra when cheap and selling excess when expensive. Ignoring the set-up costs, of course, but those would be covered by the prize
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 16,655

    Andy_JS said:
    Entirely boring story. It would only be exciting if Bansksy turned out to be someone who the public already knew, such as Thora Heard, or Nigel Farage...
    If he was Thora Hird theres been some serious progress in deceased art, lol
    Amusing to imagine who would be the least likely living person to be Banksy?

    Starmer comes to mind. Nipping out from No 10 in the dead of night.

    This is why of course there is never any new Banksy artwork completed over a Friday night.

    Its Dido Harding. Obvs
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 28,006
    Nigelb said:

    RIP Len Deighton.
    Superb writer.

    (Rumours of the Funeral in Berlin are untrue.)

    I have his "Declarations if War" on a shelf. Good, unfussy writer.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,526
    rkrkrk said:

    Ratters said:

    Yokes said:

    It appears the Israeli high value human target strategy has got another hit in Iran. If its confirmed, its a very big hit.

    Meanwhile it turns out that US airborne early warning assets in the region have issues picking up drones so they are having to send something lese.

    How much do these killings matter strategically?

    I'd have assumed there's a long list of people who can step in to replace those killed.
    It's like the debate around the Great Man theory of history. Does one individual ever make a difference? There's an argument that replacing Khamenei snr with Khamenei jnr has made a real difference: a bad one, in that Khamenei snr would, without the US/Israeli attack, have died in a few years and would possibly have been replaced with someone less hardline than his son without the context of a war going on.
    I think the other factor people often miss is the personal. Now we have a leader in Iran who knows the US/Israel killed his father. That surely makes peace/compromise/de-escalation less likely.


    Presumably any new Iranian leader will be under no illusion that regardless of any diplomatic agreements, Israel wouldn't assassinate them at the first opportunity.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,946
    MattW said:

    ydoethur said:

    How did I guess that TSE would make silly remarks about coins in a thread about notes?

    He should really be campaigning for better punning opportunities. So, for example, should Scottish notes have thistles on them so when we accept them we can say "thistle do nicely?'

    Or five pound notes feature heroic figures from the past, notably Lady Godiva? While ten pound notes could feature Wyn Evans. Recast the £20 note as £25 and have Valegro on the front of it.

    Lady Godiva should be the watermark, such that ogling 12 year old boys with magnifying glasses raised can be publicly humiliated when holding one up to a window.

    I think our West British expert needs some education by our North British experts.

    As I understand it, Scottish Banknotes already carry thistles, so you have been missing an opportunity to say "thistle do nicely" for decades, everywhere they are accepted, or aren't accepted - at which point your interlocuter can go Panto: "Oh NO IT WON'T".

    Here's the current North British £50 note, complete with "Four Thistles".



    We need Four Candles on at least one of them, with fork handles, and as many elements as possible.
    £5 Lady Godiva
    £10 Ayrton Senna
    £20 Bobby Moore
    £50 Jim Bowen
  • MustaphaMondeoMustaphaMondeo Posts: 521
    On topic.

    I know it is too late but hares are missing. Hares are fantastic. Red Kites and Swifts for the two other notes please.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,946

    Andy_JS said:
    Entirely boring story. It would only be exciting if Bansksy turned out to be someone who the public already knew, such as Thora Heard, or Nigel Farage...
    If he was Thora Hird theres been some serious progress in deceased art, lol
    Amusing to imagine who would be the least likely living person to be Banksy?

    Starmer comes to mind. Nipping out from No 10 in the dead of night.

    This is why of course there is never any new Banksy artwork completed over a Friday night.

    New born baby wins that contest.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,717
    algarkirk said:

    kinabalu said:

    What have the LDs got against rabbits?

    Nothing. As long as bunnies can (and will) go to France...
    That trial was 47 years ago. Feels both yesterday and ancient history
    I was once was at a public meeting about PR somewhere in London back in probably 2006 or 7 or thereabouts.

    About half way through a doddery old man stood up in the audience and said he would like to make a point. I forget about what exactly. But he introduced himself as Jeremy Thorpe and a frisson went through the audience.

    Is it really him? Is he still alive? Where's he been all these years etc etc.

    Unsurprisingly, it was a very eloquently put point.

  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,704

    Guardian says Reform are about to announce a public lottery funded by them where the winner gets free energy for a year.

    Is this treating?

    They have to use their 'free' energy between 2:00 and 3:30 in the morning though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 58,694

    Guardian says Reform are about to announce a public lottery funded by them where the winner gets free energy for a year.

    Is this treating?

    Treating the voters like fools.

    If I win, I will set up an aluminium smelter for a year....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 47,092

    Andy_JS said:
    Entirely boring story. It would only be exciting if Bansksy turned out to be someone who the public already knew, such as Thora Heard, or Nigel Farage...
    If he was Thora Hird theres been some serious progress in deceased art, lol
    Amusing to imagine who would be the least likely living person to be Banksy?

    Starmer comes to mind. Nipping out from No 10 in the dead of night.

    This is why of course there is never any new Banksy artwork completed over a Friday night.

    Its Dido Harding. Obvs
    Don’t want to get all chauvinistic about arseholes but Douglas Ross for the least likely win. His ‘I’m in politics to get rid of the gypsies’ schtick obviously a cunning distraction from his true self of deeply woke artist.
  • Sweeney74Sweeney74 Posts: 272
    Of all the things to get in a tizzy about.
    Animals on banknotes instead of Churchill et al...
    FFS
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 87,224
    viewcode said:

    Nigelb said:

    RIP Len Deighton.
    Superb writer.

    (Rumours of the Funeral in Berlin are untrue.)

    I have his "Declarations if War" on a shelf. Good, unfussy writer.
    It's decades since I read his Samson series. I'm tempted to reread.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 19,457

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm in a minority here (as usual) - I think Starmer is doing reasonably well - but the problem is the contempt is so embedded among some it will always come out as opposition. Even when Starmer gets it right, plenty will say he's getting it wrong and that's probably going to be the case to the minute he leaves 10 Downing Street and some will be still having a go as his car reaches the Palace.

    Clipped for reply....
    Ive never liked him and i know im a bit of a waspish wasp, however to explain where i think the contempt comes from....
    There is zero accountability with him. Nothing ever crosses his desk, nothing is his fault. Or, worse, he says 'i take responsibility' (mandy appointment) and then has his CoS removed and says the "process' wasnt robust enough. Then follow a more robust one! If theres a rickety bridge over a gorge with no handrail you dont just assume its safe because 'thats the process for crossing'
    Nothing crosses his desk, everything is a chance to talk about his alleged hardships, everybody else pays and process trumps all, even results.
    His inability to deal with problems because he has to follow process will be his epitaph. He will walk to his own political demise because there was a signpost telling him he must
    I simply don't share that view.

    I have been disappointed inasmuch as, like Blair, he had a real mandate for change (you can whinge and call it a "loveless landslide" if you like but in this country elections are won by seats not votes - if, under a PR system, he'd ended up with 250 seats in the Commons, it would have been different).

    Yet I was under no illusions "change" meant anything - he had no ideological programme for radical change - in truth, the centre left is as bankrupt as the centre right and has been since 2008 in terms of a practical growth-inspiring economic policy (to be fair, the populists have no answers either even though they claim they do).

    MY hope was he and his administration would manage the quasi-social democratic post-Thatcherite concensus better than the Conservatives who in 14 years of leading the Government achieved little or nothing and whose antics in 2020 have destroyed the public finances as effectively as Brown did in the run up to 2008.

    How accountable is any Prime Minister in truth - to Cabinet, to Parliament, ultimately only to the electorate? When you have a huge majority of MPs beholden to you, you have serious power.

    I don't think "process" as you and @Malmesbury term it, began on July 5th 2024. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with "process" is apart from it takes longer to do things. If you have unregulated and uncontrolled activity you end up with situations like the Eastgate building near Woking Station:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c338k2d6ev4o
    The problem comes when Process becomes the end, and not the means.

    The classic put-down, these days is that “no process = chaos”. Yes it does. But excessive love of process above outcomes leads to chaos as well.

    Grenfell burnt down with metric tons of docs proving it was environmentally friendly, planned well, rebuilt brilliantly. Oh, and was completely tip top on the fire angle. But “The Forms Were Obeyed”

    Starmer’s problem is that he seems to exist as an implementer of process. His job, according the U.K. constitution is to re-write process, where required.

    Watching as parts of the house building sector stall, during a housing crisis, is a negative.

    See the recent decisions on the nuclear power station planning regieme for a positive.

    Edit: on the building you linked to. The documentation for the build was tip top as well. The problem with the concrete is a widespread issue. Buildings are being found with inadequate structure all the time. Because testing samples of the concrete during construction didn’t happen. Instead we have rooms full of paper saying it’s all great.
    But just saying the problem with Grenfell was too much process seems simplistic, a grand narrative in search of an example. It's the details that matter. What particular circumstances led those involved to miss the dangers?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 32,633
    Cicero said:

    Roger said:

    Some good news, UK-Ukraine defence pact:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c15xeyny73wo

    If Zelenski has the available capacity to help the US and Israel in their illegal invasion they shouldn't be surprised if the public lose interest in spending their money supporting Zelenski.
    A ridiculous statement.

    Iran has been providing missiles to kill Ukrainian civilians for several years. I hold no brief for Trump or this war, but mixing the Ukrainian legitimate right of self defence and the presumed illegality of the Israeli and American attacks only benefits Putin, who remains a far bigger criminal even when compared with Bibi and increasingly Trump.
    I think it tells us much about where Europe needs to have its focus.

    Both Putin and Trump want to dismember Europe as a power or potential power, because it is a threat to their position.

    Trump imagines a 3-polar world from his youth of Russia-China-USA, and he is still stuck in it. Russia is delighted to watch the useful idiot Trump starting the process of the USA rotting from the head.

    Personally, I think the greatest current threat is the USA, not Iran, or China, or Russia. That is because it has the greatest potential impact, not because it is the worst of the three. The USA is the one it is most important to counter and face down.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 2,526

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm in a minority here (as usual) - I think Starmer is doing reasonably well - but the problem is the contempt is so embedded among some it will always come out as opposition. Even when Starmer gets it right, plenty will say he's getting it wrong and that's probably going to be the case to the minute he leaves 10 Downing Street and some will be still having a go as his car reaches the Palace.

    Clipped for reply....
    Ive never liked him and i know im a bit of a waspish wasp, however to explain where i think the contempt comes from....
    There is zero accountability with him. Nothing ever crosses his desk, nothing is his fault. Or, worse, he says 'i take responsibility' (mandy appointment) and then has his CoS removed and says the "process' wasnt robust enough. Then follow a more robust one! If theres a rickety bridge over a gorge with no handrail you dont just assume its safe because 'thats the process for crossing'
    Nothing crosses his desk, everything is a chance to talk about his alleged hardships, everybody else pays and process trumps all, even results.
    His inability to deal with problems because he has to follow process will be his epitaph. He will walk to his own political demise because there was a signpost telling him he must
    I simply don't share that view.

    I have been disappointed inasmuch as, like Blair, he had a real mandate for change (you can whinge and call it a "loveless landslide" if you like but in this country elections are won by seats not votes - if, under a PR system, he'd ended up with 250 seats in the Commons, it would have been different).

    Yet I was under no illusions "change" meant anything - he had no ideological programme for radical change - in truth, the centre left is as bankrupt as the centre right and has been since 2008 in terms of a practical growth-inspiring economic policy (to be fair, the populists have no answers either even though they claim they do).

    MY hope was he and his administration would manage the quasi-social democratic post-Thatcherite concensus better than the Conservatives who in 14 years of leading the Government achieved little or nothing and whose antics in 2020 have destroyed the public finances as effectively as Brown did in the run up to 2008.

    How accountable is any Prime Minister in truth - to Cabinet, to Parliament, ultimately only to the electorate? When you have a huge majority of MPs beholden to you, you have serious power.

    I don't think "process" as you and @Malmesbury term it, began on July 5th 2024. I'm not exactly sure what your problem with "process" is apart from it takes longer to do things. If you have unregulated and uncontrolled activity you end up with situations like the Eastgate building near Woking Station:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c338k2d6ev4o
    The problem comes when Process becomes the end, and not the means.

    The classic put-down, these days is that “no process = chaos”. Yes it does. But excessive love of process above outcomes leads to chaos as well.

    Grenfell burnt down with metric tons of docs proving it was environmentally friendly, planned well, rebuilt brilliantly. Oh, and was completely tip top on the fire angle. But “The Forms Were Obeyed”

    Starmer’s problem is that he seems to exist as an implementer of process. His job, according the U.K. constitution is to re-write process, where required.

    Watching as parts of the house building sector stall, during a housing crisis, is a negative.

    See the recent decisions on the nuclear power station planning regieme for a positive.

    Edit: on the building you linked to. The documentation for the build was tip top as well. The problem with the concrete is a widespread issue. Buildings are being found with inadequate structure all the time. Because testing samples of the concrete during construction didn’t happen. Instead we have rooms full of paper saying it’s all great.
    The Grenfell fire is not an argument for getting rid of a regulatory process, it is an argument for proper enforcement and verification of the regulatory process.
    The documentation of the construction and materials used did not reflect the reality of the work and the material testing.
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