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Punters continue have more faith in Zack Polanski than Kemi Badenoch – politicalbetting.com

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  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,855

    https://x.com/ianbyrnemp/status/2027422614851899720

    The lines from PM and Cabinet today essentially labelling the Green Party as extremist is appalling, desperate and frankly embarrassing. It also makes very clear that the leadership has zero understanding of where it has been going wrong.

    The party is being destroyed & an urgent change of direction is needed.

    I hadn't heard that one. Are they far right or far left?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,368
    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Maybe they could co-opt Amy Winehouse as a reference to his energy policies, “Zack to Black”.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,600
    MattW said:

    Activists target lawyers with book: 'Why Daddy’s Law Firm Works With The Nice Oil Men’

    A climate change pressure group has targeted lawyers with a satirical children’s book intended to make them rethink their evil career choices.

    Serious People is sending copies of Why Daddy’s Law Firm Works With The Nice Oil Men to "top oil and gas lawyers across London" today, it told RollOnFriday.

    ROF’s been treated to a preview copy and can confirm it’s guaranteed to delight every child of a solicitor in the energy sector. Though mums may feel slighted by the insinuation they don’t get instructions from BP as well.

    Recipients expecting a valedictory story of a heroic energy lawyer earning the respect of his offspring will be disappointed. As the blurb explains, “On a chilly winter night, a little penguin dared to wonder: if Daddy loves me, why does his law firm facilitate fossil fuel expansion?”

    The book depicts a solicitor penguin getting badgered to change his ways by his idealistic brat of a child, who doesn’t appreciate that although their antarctic habitat may get wiped out if dad carries on taking the oily dollar, the family can afford to relocate thanks to his hard work.


    https://www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/exclusive-activists-target-lawyers-book-why-daddys-law-firm-works-nice-oil-men

    I hope it is designed to be a 6-minute read.
    Spank The Monkey Lends A Hand is funnier.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,929
    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Rayner or Cooper would probably be pragmatic enough to steer a vaguely sensible course. EdM very much not so - I think he's a closet megalomaniac. (I don't think he used to be that way, but I'm pretty sure he is now)

    The other driftwood is very hard to assess. Lammy for example would just steer the ship with the winds. Nothing good would happen and nothing bad, unless there was an iceberg. And icebergs have a nasty way of arriving, unexpected, at your front door. They turn up like Greens at my address. (Never seen either)
    Rayner i have down as all or nothing, shit or bust - possible she is a raging success snd a w/c heroine, equally possible she is Truss on steroids.
    The Big Sam/Sunak after Truss choice is probably Healey or Hillary Benn, take them down gently
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,810

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    The problem is not the right-wing of Labour: it has a long history in the party and includes luminaries such as Denis Healey. The problem is that it and the left are splintered. Look at the factions
    • Streeting/Blair Labour. Only knows one trick: privatising and shredding the left. It doesn't work any more and they keep pushing on string
    • Mahmood/Blue Labour. Only knows one trick: bashing and whining. Badenoch can do that better and get more votes
    • Rayner/Old Labour. Only knows one trick: tax and spend. You need a competent state to do that and we haven't got one.
    In the 1990s this was a coherent whole, but in the 2020s it isn't and even if it was it still wouldn't work.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,090
    viewcode said:

    Why are Afghanistan and Pakistan fighting?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cdjmrxkwk3mo

    Google "Khorasan" (a putative greater Afghanistan) or "Pashtunistan" (a smaller version)
    Google "Durand Line" (a border Afghanistan no longer recognises)

    Afghanistan has two factions: the Taliban (in charge) and another (even more extreme). The problem is Khorasan/Greater Afghanistan and the relations with Pakistan. Afghanistan wants to be bigger and the tension is how does it do that. This has been building for some years and about two years ago the Taliban was seen as the moderate partner (!), but recently tensions have built again and I think the Durand Line is no longer recognised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuhP9I3DsRE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hj-ESvUlYI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8dwDYXXqVQ

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durand_Line
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khorasan
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunistan
    More importantly, we need to know where the Green Party stands on Afghanistan v. Pakistan!
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,929
    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Get him on to do a double act with Reforms chairman.
    Spooky ghost man and the boob whisperer
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,435
    Fully support Starmer's criticism of the Greens as extreme.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,613
    Brixian59 said:

    Court of Appeal uphold Government decision to levy Vat on Private Schools.

    Great news as an extra £1.8bn over 3 years diverted to the 95% who attend State Schools.

    Now abolish the fake Charity cons many set up.

    Parasites.

    You are just jealous.
    That's Labour 4 u. They want to drag everyone down to the lowest common denominator.
    Well fuck them
    My wife and are are going to escape this pernicious Govt and live elsewhere . I won't be any financial loss but we will be happier.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,470

    Nigelb said:

    tpfkar said:

    viewcode said:

    FPT

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Our weapons procurement budget has actually fallen.
    Whether or not this particular decision os justified, it is one of the consequences of that.

    Thousands of jobs at Leonardo's Yeovil helicopter factory feared to be at risk after Treasury officials this morning refused to sign off £1bn medium helicopters deal.

    Source familiar with the discussions says: "It's over."

    Warns of "biblical" impact on jobs 1/2

    https://x.com/mattotele/status/2027347073863950458

    The defence industrial strategy happening in Europe just isn't over here.

    Absolutely effing mental.
    Its the Telegraph, so we can't be 100% sure, but this has the ring of truth.

    The Chancellor @RachelReevesMP has refused to sign off on the New Medium Helicopter contract.

    @LDO_Helicopters had set today as the deadline for a decision otherwise the Yeovil factory to be closed with the loss of at least 3,000 jobs, ending UK helicopter manufacturing.

    https://x.com/NavyLookout/status/2027377505871544432
    This was on the Times News yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vm2t5r7xeUo

    The helicopter they are working on (amongst others) is the Proteus helicopter: a full-on drone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsghRo7yfDE

    And they are going to f*** it up because Starmer is an idiot.
    The Beeb think it's going ahead

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c75e14k64dvo
    Seems official.

    I was right to be a bit wary of the Telegraph story; according to the Beeb, the Telegraph has it 100% the wrong way round.
    So order approved by Reeves, overruling the MoD.

    If confirmed, that's the last time I repost anything from the Telegraph.
    It used to be a genuine newspaper.
    I think it happened like this:

    Treasury: have you finished your defence spending plan?

    Mod: no

    T: then you can’t have any new toys until you’ve eaten your greens

    M: but Rachel!

    T: no

    Unite: what the bloody hell are you playing at?

    T: ok then
    Thank f--- for that, but this is no way to run military procurement.
    If the UK had any idea how to run military procurement we'd have a very different military right now.
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 896
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    The problem is not the right-wing of Labour: it has a long history in the party and includes luminaries such as Denis Healey. The problem is that it and the left are splintered. Look at the factions
    • Streeting/Blair Labour. Only knows one trick: privatising and shredding the left. It doesn't work any more and they keep pushing on string
    • Mahmood/Blue Labour. Only knows one trick: bashing and whining. Badenoch can do that better and get more votes
    • Rayner/Old Labour. Only knows one trick: tax and spend. You need a competent state to do that and we haven't got one.
    In the 1990s this was a coherent whole, but in the 2020s it isn't and even if it was it still wouldn't work.
    Badenoch got the lowest Tory vote in history last night.

    If the public had any trust, interest or faith in her, why did she perform so badly.

    Real votes
    Obliterated
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,956
    Wondering what has happened to Find Out Now, they should have had a poll on Wednesday
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,929
    edited 6:56PM

    Wondering what has happened to Find Out Now, they should have had a poll on Wednesday

    They usually release on Thursday, i think last by election they delayed by a day but nothing out today thus far
    The Tuesday one was a one off extra poll prompting for Restore and YP

    Opinium also did not release on Saturday which was the due date
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,368

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Rayner or Cooper would probably be pragmatic enough to steer a vaguely sensible course. EdM very much not so - I think he's a closet megalomaniac. (I don't think he used to be that way, but I'm pretty sure he is now)

    The other driftwood is very hard to assess. Lammy for example would just steer the ship with the winds. Nothing good would happen and nothing bad, unless there was an iceberg. And icebergs have a nasty way of arriving, unexpected, at your front door. They turn up like Greens at my address. (Never seen either)
    Rayner i have down as all or nothing, shit or bust - possible she is a raging success snd a w/c heroine, equally possible she is Truss on steroids.
    The Big Sam/Sunak after Truss choice is probably Healey or Hillary Benn, take them down gently
    Also what the hell has Cooper ever done? Can anyone who isn’t a Labour obsessive point to anything she has achieved, stood for, identifies with. She’s the ultimate Grey Ghost who has just floated around the Palace of Westminster for ever.

    People list her as a potential leader because people have listed her as a potential leader. She might stand for compulsory watching of GMTV and pixie haircuts for all women as far as I know.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,372
    Faisal Islam
    @faisalislam
    As a Manc, not enough people listening to
    @robfordmancs
    who has been anticipating the Green surge for sometime and pointing to some quite striking potential results in London in May…

    https://x.com/faisalislam/status/2027439081110565309
  • Brixian59Brixian59 Posts: 896
    edited 6:58PM
    I'm interested n the Greens drugs policy ideas.
    8
    There might be some merit in lower Grade /Class legal easement.

    An grown up conversation may be welcome.

    Looking at his teeth it may be that ZP can offer some first hand knowlwdge.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 22,089

    The sectariani line could indeed age quite badly. As soon as the Greens start winning by-electioms with low minority populations, in fact, which will surely be again quite soon.

    Thanks for the cooking tips from various posters. Perhaps I could integrate sandalwood into tonight's lentils and chicken somehow, to complete the ecological theme.

    Will they though? They are not really greens, they are a more successful Your Party, without the Corbyn. Strip out the Gaza vote and they are just hard socialists.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,729
    Brixian59 said:

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    The problem is who not the right-wing of Labour: it has a long history in the party and includes luminaries such as Denis Healey. The problem is that it and the left are splintered. Look at the factions
    • Streeting/Blair Labour. Only knows one trick: privatising and shredding the left. It doesn't work any more and they keep pushing on string
    • Mahmood/Blue Labour. Only knows one trick: bashing and whining. Badenoch can do that better and get more votes
    • Rayner/Old Labour. Only knows one trick: tax and spend. You need a competent state to do that and we haven't got one.
    In the 1990s this was a coherent whole, but in the 2020s it isn't and even if it was it still wouldn't work.
    Badenoch got the lowest Tory vote in history last night.

    If the public had any trust, interest or faith in her, why did she perform so badly.

    Real votes
    Obliterated
    The Conservatives got obliterated, and are now dying half-dead in a ditch, because they ignored and abused people who could be persuaded to vote for them (aspirational middle classes) for voters who they wanted (older, more reactionary voters who were buggering off to Reform).

    Labour aren't obliterated yet, but are sliding into a similar ditch because they are ignoring and abusing people who could be persuaded to vote for them (aspiational but caring middle classes) for voters they wanted (older, more reactionary voters who are buggering off to Reform.)

    That's not a new phenomemon on the red side- remember all the chants of "why don't do f-off and join the Tories?" in the Corbyn years?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 39,435
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,929
    Brixian59 said:

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    The problem is not the right-wing of Labour: it has a long history in the party and includes luminaries such as Denis Healey. The problem is that it and the left are splintered. Look at the factions
    • Streeting/Blair Labour. Only knows one trick: privatising and shredding the left. It doesn't work any more and they keep pushing on string
    • Mahmood/Blue Labour. Only knows one trick: bashing and whining. Badenoch can do that better and get more votes
    • Rayner/Old Labour. Only knows one trick: tax and spend. You need a competent state to do that and we haven't got one.
    In the 1990s this was a coherent whole, but in the 2020s it isn't and even if it was it still wouldn't work.
    Badenoch got the lowest Tory vote in history last night.

    If the public had any trust, interest or faith in her, why did she perform so badly.

    Real votes
    Obliterated
    Labour had three much larger losses of votes including lost deposits in the last parliament and did ok in July 24
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,988
    edited 7:10PM

    The sectariani line could indeed age quite badly. As soon as the Greens start winning by-electioms with low minority populations, in fact, which will surely be again quite soon.

    Thanks for the cooking tips from various posters. Perhaps I could integrate sandalwood into tonight's lentils and chicken somehow, to complete the ecological theme.

    Will they though? They are not really greens, they are a more successful Your Party, without the Corbyn. Strip out the Gaza vote and they are just hard socialists.
    Your Party look slow and flat-footed compared. This latest incarnation of the Greens look like a much more nimble, media and net-savvy for left-wing millennials.

    The UK economy, and British society also urgently needs a young people's party.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 15,929
    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Rayner or Cooper would probably be pragmatic enough to steer a vaguely sensible course. EdM very much not so - I think he's a closet megalomaniac. (I don't think he used to be that way, but I'm pretty sure he is now)

    The other driftwood is very hard to assess. Lammy for example would just steer the ship with the winds. Nothing good would happen and nothing bad, unless there was an iceberg. And icebergs have a nasty way of arriving, unexpected, at your front door. They turn up like Greens at my address. (Never seen either)
    Rayner i have down as all or nothing, shit or bust - possible she is a raging success snd a w/c heroine, equally possible she is Truss on steroids.
    The Big Sam/Sunak after Truss choice is probably Healey or Hillary Benn, take them down gently
    Also what the hell has Cooper ever done? Can anyone who isn’t a Labour obsessive point to anything she has achieved, stood for, identifies with. She’s the ultimate Grey Ghost who has just floated around the Palace of Westminster for ever.

    People list her as a potential leader because people have listed her as a potential leader. She might stand for compulsory watching of GMTV and pixie haircuts for all women as far as I know.

    Her HIPS dont lie
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,368

    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Rayner or Cooper would probably be pragmatic enough to steer a vaguely sensible course. EdM very much not so - I think he's a closet megalomaniac. (I don't think he used to be that way, but I'm pretty sure he is now)

    The other driftwood is very hard to assess. Lammy for example would just steer the ship with the winds. Nothing good would happen and nothing bad, unless there was an iceberg. And icebergs have a nasty way of arriving, unexpected, at your front door. They turn up like Greens at my address. (Never seen either)
    Rayner i have down as all or nothing, shit or bust - possible she is a raging success snd a w/c heroine, equally possible she is Truss on steroids.
    The Big Sam/Sunak after Truss choice is probably Healey or Hillary Benn, take them down gently
    Also what the hell has Cooper ever done? Can anyone who isn’t a Labour obsessive point to anything she has achieved, stood for, identifies with. She’s the ultimate Grey Ghost who has just floated around the Palace of Westminster for ever.

    People list her as a potential leader because people have listed her as a potential leader. She might stand for compulsory watching of GMTV and pixie haircuts for all women as far as I know.

    Her HIPS dont lie
    Oh god, I’ve now got the image of a small prep school boy doing a Shakira effort at the end of term concert. Not a good image if anyone worried.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 4,855
    Andy_JS said:
    We can expect a sudden rise in the number of far left referrals to Prevent? Or should that be bright Green referrals?
  • MustaphaMondeoMustaphaMondeo Posts: 506
    AnneJGP said:

    Andy_JS said:
    We can expect a sudden rise in the number of far left referrals to Prevent? Or should that be bright Green referrals?
    It’s the dark greens you need to look out for.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,090
    According to the Sunilist Young School, venison is most definitely NOT vegan.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,300

    AnneJGP said:

    Andy_JS said:
    We can expect a sudden rise in the number of far left referrals to Prevent? Or should that be bright Green referrals?
    It’s the dark greens you need to look out for.
    We must have our 5 a day.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,958
    edited 7:37PM
    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,729

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 3,687
    Apologies if already posted

    https://news.stv.tv/politics/labour-challenges-deepen-as-poll-predicts-reform-to-be-main-holyrood-opposition

    "Labour’s challenges are deepening and Reform is in “pole position” to become the main opposition in the Scottish Parliament, researchers have said in response to a new opinion poll.

    A YouGov poll for the Scottish Election Study (SES) group puts Labour in third place in the constituency vote and fourth in the list vote.

    The SES said the SNP’s vote appears to be holding stable despite just 23% of respondents saying the party is doing a “good job” in Government.
    "
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 57,817

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    You create a Change UK and do a Cleggmania.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 12,582

    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
    The Greens are a better choice than Corbyn.

    (I'd of course urge you to consider the wisdom that the conservatives offer)
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,634

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    Starmer is no Macron. There was a time after the election I believe Starmer had the opportunity to shine. If there was a Haynes manual for getting Government all wrong, Starmer followed it to the letter.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,958
    Omnium said:

    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
    The Greens are a better choice than Corbyn.

    (I'd of course urge you to consider the wisdom that the conservatives offer)
    (Considers...) (5 seconds pass) Er, no, sorry. :)
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 533

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Rayner or Cooper would probably be pragmatic enough to steer a vaguely sensible course. EdM very much not so - I think he's a closet megalomaniac. (I don't think he used to be that way, but I'm pretty sure he is now)

    The other driftwood is very hard to assess. Lammy for example would just steer the ship with the winds. Nothing good would happen and nothing bad, unless there was an iceberg. And icebergs have a nasty way of arriving, unexpected, at your front door. They turn up like Greens at my address. (Never seen either)
    Rayner i have down as all or nothing, shit or bust - possible she is a raging success snd a w/c heroine, equally possible she is Truss on steroids.
    The Big Sam/Sunak after Truss choice is probably Healey or Hillary Benn, take them down gently
    They are more the Roy Hodgson choice, given their age
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,090

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    Starmer is no Macron. There was a time after the election I believe Starmer had the opportunity to shine. If there was a Haynes manual for getting Government all wrong, Starmer followed it to the letter.
    Starmer is Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

    We need to enter the alternate reality where he is Ace Starmer - what a guy!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,079

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    With thought out policies and conviction*?

    *not proven doesn’t count
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,988
    edited 7:58PM
    Labour also now has the problem that their more leftish alternatives look less millennial and even more recent generations in media style than the Greens, having been marginalised for more than half a decade, now.

    Your Party also have a similar problem of looking older., par6cularly in style and machine procedure.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,634

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    Starmer is no Macron. There was a time after the election I believe Starmer had the opportunity to shine. If there was a Haynes manual for getting Government all wrong, Starmer followed it to the letter.
    Starmer is Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

    We need to enter the alternate reality where he is Ace Starmer - what a guy!
    I thought he was Brittas.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 61,079

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    Starmer is no Macron. There was a time after the election I believe Starmer had the opportunity to shine. If there was a Haynes manual for getting Government all wrong, Starmer followed it to the letter.
    Starmer is Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

    We need to enter the alternate reality where he is Ace Starmer - what a guy!
    He is Gordon Britas.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,090

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    Starmer is no Macron. There was a time after the election I believe Starmer had the opportunity to shine. If there was a Haynes manual for getting Government all wrong, Starmer followed it to the letter.
    Starmer is Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

    We need to enter the alternate reality where he is Ace Starmer - what a guy!
    He is Gordon Britas.
    Same actor!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,368

    Andy_JS said:
    Greens to left of me, fascists to the right, here I am stuck in the middle with no clue.
    In France, this is the space that Macron stepped into and couldn't be budged from.

    I don't know how you do the same in the UK system.
    Starmer is no Macron. There was a time after the election I believe Starmer had the opportunity to shine. If there was a Haynes manual for getting Government all wrong, Starmer followed it to the letter.
    Starmer is Arnold Rimmer from Red Dwarf.

    We need to enter the alternate reality where he is Ace Starmer - what a guy!
    Maybe he could be Sir Rimmer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,634
    edited 8:03PM

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Rayner or Cooper would probably be pragmatic enough to steer a vaguely sensible course. EdM very much not so - I think he's a closet megalomaniac. (I don't think he used to be that way, but I'm pretty sure he is now)

    The other driftwood is very hard to assess. Lammy for example would just steer the ship with the winds. Nothing good would happen and nothing bad, unless there was an iceberg. And icebergs have a nasty way of arriving, unexpected, at your front door. They turn up like Greens at my address. (Never seen either)
    Rayner i have down as all or nothing, shit or bust - possible she is a raging success snd a w/c heroine, equally possible she is Truss on steroids.
    The Big Sam/Sunak after Truss choice is probably Healey or Hillary Benn, take them down gently
    Roll the dice.

    I doubt she is "Truss on steroids ". It might go horribly wrong but it might work. It's got to be better than the grey porridge of Starmer, Streeting, Reeves, Milliband, Burnham and Powell.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,604

    Bill Clinton statement on Epstein:

    https://x.com/BillClinton/status/2027424128559452573

    I know what I saw, and more importantly, what I didn't see.

    I know what I did, and more importantly, what I didn't do.

    I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong.

    This is the same Third Way bullshit we heard from Clinton and Blair in the 1990s and made everyone so utterly cynical about politics.

    He hasn't changed, has he?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,929
    boulay said:

    Omnium said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Rayner or Cooper would probably be pragmatic enough to steer a vaguely sensible course. EdM very much not so - I think he's a closet megalomaniac. (I don't think he used to be that way, but I'm pretty sure he is now)

    The other driftwood is very hard to assess. Lammy for example would just steer the ship with the winds. Nothing good would happen and nothing bad, unless there was an iceberg. And icebergs have a nasty way of arriving, unexpected, at your front door. They turn up like Greens at my address. (Never seen either)
    Rayner i have down as all or nothing, shit or bust - possible she is a raging success snd a w/c heroine, equally possible she is Truss on steroids.
    The Big Sam/Sunak after Truss choice is probably Healey or Hillary Benn, take them down gently
    Also what the hell has Cooper ever done? Can anyone who isn’t a Labour obsessive point to anything she has achieved, stood for, identifies with. She’s the ultimate Grey Ghost who has just floated around the Palace of Westminster for ever.

    People list her as a potential leader because people have listed her as a potential leader. She might stand for compulsory watching of GMTV and pixie haircuts for all women as far as I know.
    It is why the country is in such a mess, absolute useless nonenties can stay in Westminster for most of their life regardless of being totally useless.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,729
    edited 8:09PM
    In "old jokes" news, from 2023:

    Every European election:
    The People’s Democrats (center-right) 31 per cent
    Soviet Worker’s Party (center/center-left) 22 per cent
    Citizen’s Forum (fascist) 19%
    Wow! (Center) 11 per cent
    Friendship is Magic (left) - nine per cent
    Green Party - eight per cent


    Except in Britain, Citizen's (Re)Forum and the People's Democrats have swapped places.

    This is not a good thing.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,634

    Bill Clinton statement on Epstein:

    https://x.com/BillClinton/status/2027424128559452573

    I know what I saw, and more importantly, what I didn't see.

    I know what I did, and more importantly, what I didn't do.

    I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong.

    This is the same Third Way bullshit we heard from Clinton and Blair in the 1990s and made everyone so utterly cynical about politics.

    He hasn't changed, has he?
    He's stolen a march on your mad old boy who despite apparently 38,000 mentions in the truncated, redacted second tranche and allegedly 1,000,000 in the 3,000,000 documents we haven't yet seen, believes he barely knew Epstein.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,616

    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
    I completely agree with this.

    You can't sell something that doesn't exist. Labour need a clearer sense of purpose and strategy. Anything at this stage would be an improvement. Then they can worry about who is best-placed to implement and sell that strategy.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 65,604

    Bill Clinton statement on Epstein:

    https://x.com/BillClinton/status/2027424128559452573

    I know what I saw, and more importantly, what I didn't see.

    I know what I did, and more importantly, what I didn't do.

    I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong.

    This is the same Third Way bullshit we heard from Clinton and Blair in the 1990s and made everyone so utterly cynical about politics.

    He hasn't changed, has he?
    He's stolen a march on your mad old boy who despite apparently 38,000 mentions in the truncated, redacted second tranche and allegedly 1,000,000 in the 3,000,000 documents we haven't yet seen, believes he barely knew Epstein.
    My "mad old boy"?

    WTF are you talking about?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,988
    edited 8:12PM
    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,368

    Bill Clinton statement on Epstein:

    https://x.com/BillClinton/status/2027424128559452573

    I know what I saw, and more importantly, what I didn't see.

    I know what I did, and more importantly, what I didn't do.

    I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong.

    This is the same Third Way bullshit we heard from Clinton and Blair in the 1990s and made everyone so utterly cynical about politics.

    He hasn't changed, has he?
    He's stolen a march on your mad old boy who despite apparently 38,000 mentions in the truncated, redacted second tranche and allegedly 1,000,000 in the 3,000,000 documents we haven't yet seen, believes he barely knew Epstein.
    Not sure Casino is a big Trump fan but whataboutery is fun.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 101,470
    edited 8:16PM

    Bill Clinton statement on Epstein:

    https://x.com/BillClinton/status/2027424128559452573

    I know what I saw, and more importantly, what I didn't see.

    I know what I did, and more importantly, what I didn't do.

    I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong.

    This is the same Third Way bullshit we heard from Clinton and Blair in the 1990s and made everyone so utterly cynical about politics.

    He hasn't changed, has he?
    Taking the quoted section at face value about what he saw and did not see, an important question was whether he was wilfully blind or not. At the least he cannot pull Mandelson's excuse, but I've yet to see a non-criminal explanation of why Epstein was just so darn appealing to people already super wealthy and powerful who didn't need to go to him for a casual good time, suggesting he offered something they could not get elsewhere even with their millions and powerful connections.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 37,634
    edited 8:20PM

    Bill Clinton statement on Epstein:

    https://x.com/BillClinton/status/2027424128559452573

    I know what I saw, and more importantly, what I didn't see.

    I know what I did, and more importantly, what I didn't do.

    I saw nothing, and I did nothing wrong.

    This is the same Third Way bullshit we heard from Clinton and Blair in the 1990s and made everyone so utterly cynical about politics.

    He hasn't changed, has he?
    He's stolen a march on your mad old boy who despite apparently 38,000 mentions in the truncated, redacted second tranche and allegedly 1,000,000 in the 3,000,000 documents we haven't yet seen, believes he barely knew Epstein.
    My "mad old boy"?

    WTF are you talking about?
    My apologies, for a moment I confused you with Sandpit. I do apologise, all right wingers look the same to me.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,159
    edited 8:18PM
    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,592

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    Starmer put an end to the vision-light era, by going totally vision-free.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,090
    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
    I want you Zack!
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,613
    edited 8:28PM

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    Cooper was not competent. She foisted hips on the electorate. She is of the same stable as the equally useless Ed Miliband.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,368
    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
    I hope they sing that, it’s embarrassing and shit and few of his voters are old enough to know it.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,988

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    Cooper was not competent. She foisted hips on the electorate. She is of the same stable as the equally useless Ed Miliband.
    Miliband is competent, but Starner and Reeves made his energy growth programme incoherent.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,598
    The single most PB story in history...

    @sahilkapur.bsky.social‬

    Radiohead is demanding that the Trump administration take down a pro-ICE promotional video featuring a version of its song “Let Down” without permission.

    Full statement from the band:

    https://bsky.app/profile/sahilkapur.bsky.social/post/3mfugpgnki22d
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,613
    Screams woke alert. Izzy on Antiques Road trip has talked of "womaning" the boats instead of women manning the boats. FFS... that's why so many people loathe the BBC.
    When I go abroad that's one other thing I won't be forced to.pay for.
    Fuck the BBC.
  • The_WoodpeckerThe_Woodpecker Posts: 548
    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
    I hope they sing that, it’s embarrassing and shit and few of his voters are old enough to know it.
    They all know it at Selhurst Park...
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,159

    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
    Fair enough and I actually feel some of that too. But I guess I'm not seeing such a clear distinction between strategy and communication. For me you can take broadly the same policy thrust and in different hands the narrative can look stronger and more coherent. I do agree totally about the u-turning. That detracts from the plot.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 8,368

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
    I hope they sing that, it’s embarrassing and shit and few of his voters are old enough to know it.
    They all know it at Selhurst Park...
    Big Glastonbury contingent there.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 45,929

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    God help us
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,159

    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
    I completely agree with this.

    You can't sell something that doesn't exist. Labour need a clearer sense of purpose and strategy. Anything at this stage would be an improvement. Then they can worry about who is best-placed to implement and sell that strategy.
    Can you give an example of a vote winning strategy for Labour that doesn't employ magical thinking on economic growth and the public finances?
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,300

    Screams woke alert. Izzy on Antiques Road trip has talked of "womaning" the boats instead of women manning the boats. FFS... that's why so many people loathe the BBC.
    When I go abroad that's one other thing I won't be forced to.pay for.
    Fuck the BBC.

    Watch your blood pressure, calm down..
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,159
    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
    I hope they sing that, it’s embarrassing and shit and few of his voters are old enough to know it.
    Oh. I thought it was quite good!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 58,090
    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
    I hope they sing that, it’s embarrassing and shit and few of his voters are old enough to know it.
    Oh. I thought it was quite good!
    Jumpin' Zack Anti-fash.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 49,159

    boulay said:

    kinabalu said:

    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    Let's see some comedy socialism before the headline act in 2029.

    #thereisonlyonezackpolanski
    #thankgodtheresonlyone
    Glastonbury must be relieved they are having a year of as Zack Polanski doesn’t scan with Seven Nation Army like Jeremy Corbyn did so they have a year to find a tune.
    Cos we're feeling ... Zack all over
    Yes we're ... Zack all over
    Baby we're ... Zack all over
    And you know it's time time time time time
    I hope they sing that, it’s embarrassing and shit and few of his voters are old enough to know it.
    They all know it at Selhurst Park...
    Exactly! It's massive. A true anthem and perfect for a crowd of vibrant young progressives.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 21,729
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
    I completely agree with this.

    You can't sell something that doesn't exist. Labour need a clearer sense of purpose and strategy. Anything at this stage would be an improvement. Then they can worry about who is best-placed to implement and sell that strategy.
    Can you give an example of a vote winning strategy for Labour that doesn't employ magical thinking on economic growth and the public finances?
    Yup, until a government doesn't have to make miserable choices on tax and spending, any government is going to have a miserable time. And both spending cuts (but only on things and people I don't like) and tax rises (but only on things and people I don't like) are basically fantastical. Which is why we end up with Reevesonomics.

    For all that Starmer is doing the job badly, that's in significant part because the job of Prime Minister of the UK is more-or-less impossible right now.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,479
    Andy_JS said:
    Starmer: Reform are too extreme
    Starmer: Greens are too extreme

    What's his next move, tell everyone the Lib Dems are too extreme and that if you want the bland option Labour's your best bet?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,598
    Anthropic told the regime to fuck off, and the Mad King is VERY mad about it

    https://x.com/annmarie/status/2027486362140639625?s=20
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,592
    One safe Labour seat goes round the outside, round the outside, round the outside
    One safe Labour seat goes round the outside, round the outside, round the outside
    Woo-hoo!

    Guess who's Zach, guess who's Zach
    Guess who's Zach, tell a friend
    Guess who's Zach, guess who's Zach
    Zach’s in town, shaking things again

    I created a monster, ‘cause nobody wants Labour no more
    They want Gorton and Denton, knocking at the door
    Polanski’s on the rise, bringing votes and vivid scenes
    Manchester cheered loud, city streets lit up with Greens
    Starmer’s sweating bullets, pundits all in shock
    Predictions crumbled, tick-tock, tick-tock
    The Green wave’s rolling, safe seats under threat
    Labour didn’t see it, the night they’ll never forget

    Guess who's Zach, guess who's Zach
    Guess who's Zach, tell a friend
    Guess who's Zach, guess who's Zach
    Zach’s in town, shaking things again
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,613

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    Cooper was not competent. She foisted hips on the electorate. She is of the same stable as the equally useless Ed Miliband.
    Miliband is competent, but Starner and Reeves made his energy growth programme incoherent.
    Miliband is unable to communicate. He is useless.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 7,613

    Screams woke alert. Izzy on Antiques Road trip has talked of "womaning" the boats instead of women manning the boats. FFS... that's why so many people loathe the BBC.
    When I go abroad that's one other thing I won't be forced to.pay for.
    Fuck the BBC.

    Watch your blood pressure, calm down..
    I HAVE to.pay for something that is as woke as can be. Why should I be forced to.pay for it?
  • isamisam Posts: 43,736
    Brixian59 said:

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    The problem is not the right-wing of Labour: it has a long history in the party and includes luminaries such as Denis Healey. The problem is that it and the left are splintered. Look at the factions
    • Streeting/Blair Labour. Only knows one trick: privatising and shredding the left. It doesn't work any more and they keep pushing on string
    • Mahmood/Blue Labour. Only knows one trick: bashing and whining. Badenoch can do that better and get more votes
    • Rayner/Old Labour. Only knows one trick: tax and spend. You need a competent state to do that and we haven't got one.
    In the 1990s this was a coherent whole, but in the 2020s it isn't and even if it was it still wouldn't work.
    Badenoch got the lowest Tory vote in history last night.

    If the public had any trust, interest or faith in her, why did she perform so badly.

    Real votes
    Obliterated
    Because the only right of centre party that could win was Reform, hence the Tories ran a half hearted campaign a la Labour when they let the Lib Dems win a couple of By Elections in the last parliament

    The fact is that VI/votes ebb and flow over the course of a parliament. why should it be any more silly to say that there is a pathway for the Tories to recover than it was to say the Greens could be 6/1 to win most seats when they were 50/1 three months ago, or that Reform would be Even money to win most seats for a long while, having only less than 20% of the vote in 2024?

    LOTO Starmer was 7/1 to get a majority at this stage of the last parliament, and almost resigned after Labour lost a By Election in tone of their strongest seats, yet he won a huge majority.

    Kemi actually has some underlying metrics that play well; her leader ratings are good, and improving, and she beats every other leader in a head to head as best PM. Leading the Tories after 2024 GE was a thankless task, especially with the emergence of Refrm, and she is doing ok ,with some signs of better times ahead. A bad result in an unwinnable seat is neither here nor there

  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 22,616
    edited 9:08PM
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    Re Labour needing to move Left, it would suit me fine but I really don't think so. The single biggest thing they need is the economy to outperform trend and expectations over the next two to three years. Changing political orientation leftwards, or rightwards for that matter, makes this no more likely than it is now. So I'd resist that sort of reaction until they've sorted out the other single biggest thing they need to do - replace Keir Starmer with a better communicator and cannier politician. The 'new' political direction should flow from whoever that is and they do not have to come from any particular wing of the party. From the pov of next GE prospects the vision itself is less important than the ability to sell it.

    Unusually, I rather disagree with you, though I agree the near-absence of economic growth makes life difficjult. The reason I'm thinking of switching to the Greens after 55 years with Labour is that I feel Labour has lost any sense of direction - rather, the leadership adopts policies, ticks off people who disagree, then reverses the policies if they think they're not proving popular. It's a kind of stodgy, inconsistent populism with little discernible basis. Communication is not really the issue - the absence of a clear sense of direction is. There's even a case for a more right-wing strategy than I'd like, as at least it would be a strategy with clearer objectives.
    I completely agree with this.

    You can't sell something that doesn't exist. Labour need a clearer sense of purpose and strategy. Anything at this stage would be an improvement. Then they can worry about who is best-placed to implement and sell that strategy.
    Can you give an example of a vote winning strategy for Labour that doesn't employ magical thinking on economic growth and the public finances?
    Well, vote-winning rather depends on how well a party and its leaders are able to argue its case to the electorate. I reject the idea that the electorate have fixed views and that a party needs to assemble a winning coalition by appealing to different demographics with specific policies in the way that you might put together a Magic The Gathering card deck. Leadership is in part about the art of persuasion.

    And it's possible that the country is in such a state that winning two elections in a row isn't possible, so you might as well simply do as much good as possible without worrying overmuch about the electoral consequences. And then, who knows, the electorate might find such an honest and unflinching approach to be surprisingly refreshing and attractive, compared to the dissembling bollocks that passes for conventional political discourse.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,592
    Scott_xP said:

    The single most PB story in history...

    @sahilkapur.bsky.social‬

    Radiohead is demanding that the Trump administration take down a pro-ICE promotional video featuring a version of its song “Let Down” without permission.

    Full statement from the band:

    https://bsky.app/profile/sahilkapur.bsky.social/post/3mfugpgnki22d

    Trump is such a creep.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,925
    Scott_xP said:

    Anthropic told the regime to fuck off, and the Mad King is VERY mad about it

    https://x.com/annmarie/status/2027486362140639625?s=20

    Subscription link to Claude, for anyone so inclined: https://claude.ai/login (now that they have passed the sniff test of pissing off Trump they have become my AI of choice!)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 42,598
    @atrupar.com‬

    Trump on the Supreme Court's tariffs ruling: "Is a Rehearing or Readjudication of this case possible???"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mfumeewsdk22
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 34,026

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    Cooper was not competent. She foisted hips on the electorate. She is of the same stable as the equally useless Ed Miliband.
    Miliband is competent, but Starner and Reeves made his energy growth programme incoherent.
    Miliband is a genuine lunatic. It is his own policies that are incoherent. Even many of those in the renewable energy industry believe that.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,372

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    Cooper was not competent. She foisted hips on the electorate. She is of the same stable as the equally useless Ed Miliband.
    Miliband is competent, but Starner and Reeves made his energy growth programme incoherent.
    Miliband is unable to communicate. He is useless.
    He is also going to lose his seat.
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,479
    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Trump on the Supreme Court's tariffs ruling: "Is a Rehearing or Readjudication of this case possible???"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mfumeewsdk22

    Has he not taken it to the Even Supremer Court?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,768
    Scott_xP said:

    Anthropic told the regime to fuck off, and the Mad King is VERY mad about it

    https://x.com/annmarie/status/2027486362140639625?s=20

    Well if the Tech Bros who have been kissing Trump's arse haven't figured out by now that they have screwed up bigly they never will.

    The damage done to the US will take decades to recover from, assuming that is even possible.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,372
    Scott_xP said:

    Anthropic told the regime to fuck off, and the Mad King is VERY mad about it

    https://x.com/annmarie/status/2027486362140639625?s=20

    Starmer needs to get on the phone to them now.

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,292
    isam said:

    Brixian59 said:

    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Has Wes quit yet or is that over the weekend?

    He'd be a great choice, since even if he leads the party to a recovery he's losing his seat next time anyway, so you don't have to worry about him overstaying his welcome.
    Probably last chance saloon for the right of Labour. If not Wes we have 3 years of comedy socialism ahead
    The problem is not the right-wing of Labour: it has a long history in the party and includes luminaries such as Denis Healey. The problem is that it and the left are splintered. Look at the factions
    • Streeting/Blair Labour. Only knows one trick: privatising and shredding the left. It doesn't work any more and they keep pushing on string
    • Mahmood/Blue Labour. Only knows one trick: bashing and whining. Badenoch can do that better and get more votes
    • Rayner/Old Labour. Only knows one trick: tax and spend. You need a competent state to do that and we haven't got one.
    In the 1990s this was a coherent whole, but in the 2020s it isn't and even if it was it still wouldn't work.
    Badenoch got the lowest Tory vote in history last night.

    If the public had any trust, interest or faith in her, why did she perform so badly.

    Real votes
    Obliterated
    Because the only right of centre party that could win was Reform, hence the Tories ran a half hearted campaign a la Labour when they let the Lib Dems win a couple of By Elections in the last parliament

    The fact is that VI/votes ebb and flow over the course of a parliament. why should it be any more silly to say that there is a pathway for the Tories to recover than it was to say the Greens could be 6/1 to win most seats when they were 50/1 three months ago, or that Reform would be Even money to win most seats for a long while, having only less than 20% of the vote in 2024?

    LOTO Starmer was 7/1 to get a majority at this stage of the last parliament, and almost resigned after Labour lost a By Election in tone of their strongest seats, yet he won a huge majority.

    Kemi actually has some underlying metrics that play well; her leader ratings are good, and improving, and she beats every other leader in a head to head as best PM. Leading the Tories after 2024 GE was a thankless task, especially with the emergence of Refrm, and she is doing ok ,with some signs of better times ahead. A bad result in an unwinnable seat is neither here nor there

    I actually think what people are missing from last night is that Reform probably picked up close to three quarters of white voters last night. Obviously it's an odd mix of demographics but it does show that Reform do seem able to capture a majority of white working class voters. If they manage to do the same in 2029 there's far more constituencies that have a large majority of white people than are like last night where around half are some kind of minority and a third Muslim.

    Reform are still winning the demographic that will push them into winning most seats, it's just that last night the by election didn't have enough of them to get them over the line.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 27,592

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Trump on the Supreme Court's tariffs ruling: "Is a Rehearing or Readjudication of this case possible???"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mfumeewsdk22

    Has he not taken it to the Even Supremer Court?
    He is going to take it to Diana Ross.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 10,988
    edited 9:15PM

    Cooper is from the era of vision-light Blairite managerialism. Competent, certainly, but not a viable candidate for the future leadership. Rayner might be the only option for them.

    Cooper was not competent. She foisted hips on the electorate. She is of the same stable as the equally useless Ed Miliband.
    Miliband is competent, but Starner and Reeves made his energy growth programme incoherent.
    Miliband is a genuine lunatic. It is his own policies that are incoherent. Even many of those in the renewable energy industry believe that.
    He had a large cross-section of both economists and renewable energy experts on side until.his green growth plan was hacked to pieces by Starmer and Reeves.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 5,300

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Trump on the Supreme Court's tariffs ruling: "Is a Rehearing or Readjudication of this case possible???"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mfumeewsdk22

    Has he not taken it to the Even Supremer Court?
    He is going to take it to Diana Ross.
    A chain reaction?
  • solarflaresolarflare Posts: 4,479

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Trump on the Supreme Court's tariffs ruling: "Is a Rehearing or Readjudication of this case possible???"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mfumeewsdk22

    Has he not taken it to the Even Supremer Court?
    He is going to take it to Diana Ross.
    In return she will take another penalty to open the World Cup.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,372
    Former deputy leader.


    Shahrar Ali
    @ShahrarAli
    ·
    2h
    Interviewed tonight on Green Party by-election win. Hats off to Hannah Spencer & activists for "stunning" victory. But lacking principled political philosophy to target Muslim vote without honesty on LGBT rights & refusal to address misogynistic culture.

    https://x.com/ShahrarAli/status/2027455394856009748
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 41,292
    Right now it feels like the UK might be about to have a Trump 2016 moment where white working class voters start voting with their identity rather than on party lines. If Reform are able to capture that energy we could end up with a pretty big reform victory.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,925

    Andy_JS said:
    Starmer: Reform are too extreme
    Starmer: Greens are too extreme

    What's his next move, tell everyone the Lib Dems are too extreme and that if you want the bland option Labour's your best bet?
    I am continually dumbfounded by the depths to which Starmer's political antenna have sunk into the mire.

    Labour was elected on a promise of change. They are in the political doldrums at present partly because nothing has changed.

    Kier, a friendly piece of advice. Don't spend all your time distancing yourself from the parties who are actually offering change.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,372

    Scott_xP said:

    @atrupar.com‬

    Trump on the Supreme Court's tariffs ruling: "Is a Rehearing or Readjudication of this case possible???"

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3mfumeewsdk22

    Has he not taken it to the Even Supremer Court?
    'I am the law'
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 70,372
    maxh said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Starmer: Reform are too extreme
    Starmer: Greens are too extreme

    What's his next move, tell everyone the Lib Dems are too extreme and that if you want the bland option Labour's your best bet?
    I am continually dumbfounded by the depths to which Starmer's political antenna have sunk into the mire.

    Labour was elected on a promise of change. They are in the political doldrums at present partly because nothing has changed.

    Kier, a friendly piece of advice. Don't spend all your time distancing yourself from the parties who are actually offering change.
    Yeh, but breakfast clubs...
  • glwglw Posts: 10,768
    maxh said:

    Andy_JS said:
    Starmer: Reform are too extreme
    Starmer: Greens are too extreme

    What's his next move, tell everyone the Lib Dems are too extreme and that if you want the bland option Labour's your best bet?
    I am continually dumbfounded by the depths to which Starmer's political antenna have sunk into the mire.

    Labour was elected on a promise of change. They are in the political doldrums at present partly because nothing has changed.

    Kier, a friendly piece of advice. Don't spend all your time distancing yourself from the parties who are actually offering change.
    A big part of Labour's problem is that a lot of what they are trying to do is predicated on needing two terms to do it. They ought to realise that they won't get two terms if they don't deliver something substantial sooner than the next general election. The number of voters willing to give Labour 10 years to make things better is nowhere near enough to save them.
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