Skip to content

Trump admits his polling is very bad – politicalbetting.com

24

Comments

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,090

    This is a good point, to wit why are those individuals and organisations who usually treat the sight of a Palestinian flag as presaging a new Holocaust silent about Farage's antisemitism?

    Robert Peston
    @Peston
    ·
    18h
    JONATHAN FREEDLAND: Why Britain's Jewish leaders are silent on Farage’s schoolyard antisemitism - Jewish News

    https://x.com/Peston/status/1999126741218926705?s=20

    This does not seem like a good strategy.

    'A more truthful explanation for the Jewish organisations’ silence comes in private conversations. In those, communal figures will admit that they believe the accusations against Farage are true, but that they have made a pragmatic calculation. “He’s the coming man and right now he’s not hostile to us,” was how one senior official put it to me. They don’t want to make an enemy of a politician who, polls suggest, is heading to Downing Street.'



    Amazing that they are more concerned about people who are openly hostile to them than they are about someone they think isn't hostile to them.
    That is the point.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,090
    Trump is unpopular, but not massively so, unfortunately. His approval rating is still 44%.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 132,109
    Trump isn't that unpopular, he has an approval rating of 36%. Barry Goldwater got 36% of the vote in 1964 against LBJ. So Trump can proudly say he has taken the GOP to Goldwater levels. Only problem is Goldwater led the Republicans to their biggest landslide defeat since WW2
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,059

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It's a Wonderful Life.

    No other Christmas film comes close.

    I know this sounds bitter but I hate that film . I was hoping Stewart would jump ! I’m not averse to some feel good films but I found it just nauseating.
    I'm a sucker for a feel good film.
    My favourite film to watch over Christmas is Singing in the Rain .
    Not a Christmas film though. (Mind you, neither is The Sound of Music though it always seemed to be on every Christmas when I was a kid.)
    For similar reasons I think of The Great Escape as a Christmas film.
    Murder on the Orient Express.

    (Is Summer Holiday a Christmas film?)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,737

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,264
    Sean_F said:

    Trump is unpopular, but not massively so, unfortunately. His approval rating is still 44%.

    HYUFD said:

    Trump isn't that unpopular, he has an approval rating of 36%. Barry Goldwater got 36% of the vote in 1964 against LBJ. So Trump can proudly say he has taken the GOP to Goldwater levels. Only problem is Goldwater led the Republicans to their biggest landslide defeat since WW2

    Wait until the ACA subsidies expire
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 40,090
    Last night’s byes, despite four Reform gains, point to a small shift back from Reform to Conservatives.

    The Tories nearly won both seats in Lincolnshire, as well as holding on in Stockton and Lichfield.

    Their problem is next year they’ll be defending seats won in 2021, as well as 2022, so they’ll suffer big headline losses to Reform, even if their vote share continues to recover, a bit.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 21,199
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    Felony drugs offences in 2009 doesn’t mean he’s a violent gang member.

    In any event, is he a veteran or not, which is the actual issue being discussed.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,372
    It appears that Donald Trump's popularity is trending to his base. Which makes perfect sense because in order to think he's anything but a terrible president you need to be gullible and/or see in him a man you like and respect. The first of these qualities is hugely overrepresented in MAGA and the second is pretty much exclusive to it.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,351
    edited December 12
    IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It's a Wonderful Life.

    No other Christmas film comes close.

    I know this sounds bitter but I hate that film . I was hoping Stewart would jump ! I’m not averse to some feel good films but I found it just nauseating.
    I'm a sucker for a feel good film.
    My favourite film to watch over Christmas is Singing in the Rain .
    Not a Christmas film though. (Mind you, neither is The Sound of Music though it always seemed to be on every Christmas when I was a kid.)
    For similar reasons I think of The Great Escape as a Christmas film.
    Yes, it used to be a highlight of my childhood Xmasses, hoping that just one time McQueen would actually make it over that second fence. When the special Xmas Radio Times arrived I would rush to see when it was going to be on - as I vaguely recall, it dropped back from the Xmas day slot to later over the bank holidays. Then it disappeared from the Christmas TV schedule altogether, but occasionally surfaces over Easter.

    Anyhow, here's the dog at the very spot where the motorcycle/fence scene was filmed....

    Are you sure that's not the meadow that Maria runs across singing "The hills are alive..."?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_DyZaRJV0
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,737
    edited December 12

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    Felony drugs offences in 2009 doesn’t mean he’s a violent gang member.

    In any event, is he a veteran or not, which is the actual issue being discussed.
    You’re confusing two people, the gang member is a different individual the Democrats and media also keep lying about by omission.

    This guy is a veteran, but he wasn’t deported, he chose to leave the US of his own volition.
  • Wrapping Christmas presents should be a competitive sport.

    With marks for speed, paper used, neatness.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,051
    Scott_xP said:

    It's not a bubble...

    @gothburz

    Last quarter I rolled out Microsoft Copilot to 4,000 employees. $30 per seat per month. $1.4 million annually. I called it "digital transformation." The board loved that phrase. They approved it in eleven minutes. No one asked what it would actually do. Including me. I told everyone it would "10x productivity." That's not a real number. But it sounds like one. HR asked how we'd measure the 10x. I said we'd "leverage analytics dashboards." They stopped asking. Three months later I checked the usage reports. 47 people had opened it. 12 had used it more than once. One of them was me. I used it to summarize an email I could have read in 30 seconds. It took 45 seconds. Plus the time it took to fix the hallucinations. But I called it a "pilot success." Success means the pilot didn't visibly fail. The CFO asked about ROI. I showed him a graph. The graph went up and to the right. It measured "AI enablement." I made that metric up. He nodded approvingly. We're "AI-enabled" now. I don't know what that means. But it's in our investor deck. A senior developer asked why we didn't use Claude or ChatGPT. I said we needed "enterprise-grade security." He asked what that meant. I said "compliance." He asked which compliance. I said "all of them." He looked skeptical. I scheduled him for a "career development conversation." He stopped asking questions. Microsoft sent a case study team. They wanted to feature us as a success story. I told them we "saved 40,000 hours." I calculated that number by multiplying employees by a number I made up. They didn't verify it. They never do. Now we're on Microsoft's website. "Global enterprise achieves 40,000 hours of productivity gains with Copilot." The CEO shared it on LinkedIn. He got 3,000 likes. He's never used Copilot. None of the executives have. We have an exemption. "Strategic focus requires minimal digital distraction." I wrote that policy. The licenses renew next month. I'm requesting an expansion. 5,000 more seats. We haven't used the first 4,000. But this time we'll "drive adoption." Adoption means mandatory training. Training means a 45-minute webinar no one watches. But completion will be tracked. Completion is a metric. Metrics go in dashboards. Dashboards go in board presentations. Board presentations get me promoted. I'll be SVP by Q3. I still don't know what Copilot does. But I know what it's for. It's for showing we're "investing in AI." Investment means spending. Spending means commitment. Commitment means we're serious about the future. The future is whatever I say it is. As long as the graph goes up and to the right.

    https://x.com/gothburz/status/1999124665801880032?s=20

    Line go up. :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566

    IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It's a Wonderful Life.

    No other Christmas film comes close.

    I know this sounds bitter but I hate that film . I was hoping Stewart would jump ! I’m not averse to some feel good films but I found it just nauseating.
    I'm a sucker for a feel good film.
    My favourite film to watch over Christmas is Singing in the Rain .
    Not a Christmas film though. (Mind you, neither is The Sound of Music though it always seemed to be on every Christmas when I was a kid.)
    For similar reasons I think of The Great Escape as a Christmas film.
    Yes, it used to be a highlight of my childhood Xmasses, hoping that just one time McQueen would actually make it over that second fence. When the special Xmas Radio Times arrived I would rush to see when it was going to be on - as I vaguely recall, it dropped back from the Xmas day slot to later over the bank holidays. Then it disappeared from the Christmas TV schedule altogether, but occasionally surfaces over Easter.

    Anyhow, here's the dog at the very spot where the motorcycle/fence scene was filmed....

    Are you sure that's not the meadow that Maria runs across singing "The hills are alive..."?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_DyZaRJV0
    No, that's this one:


  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,737
    edited December 12

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    Felony drugs offences in 2009 doesn’t mean he’s a violent gang member.

    In any event, is he a veteran or not, which is the actual issue being discussed.
    You’re confusing two people, the gang member is a different individual the Democrats and media also keep lying about by omission.

    This guy is a veteran, but he wasn’t deported, he chose to leave the US of his own volition.
    Sandpit no offence but that’s total horseshit. Just because someone “self deported” under threat of indefinite detention doesn’t mean they chose to leave the US of their own volition. You really do drink the kool aid sometimes.
    Except that the Democrats said he was deported by Trump. Which was a lie.

    If they had said he was offered the chance to leave himself and took it, that would be truth.

    There’s two sides to every story, but too many people think that whatever Trump’s opponents say is absolute truth with nothing added and nothing missing.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,510
    .
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    How have they forgotten to mention the felony bit? It's in Hirono's letter, linked to above.

    Why the f do you keep defending the Trump administration? What bit of their policymaking do you like so much? Undermining NATO? Pardoning people who buy Trumpcoin? Trying to hand Ukraine over to Putin?
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,982
    isam said:

    Is this news? Oliver Sacks made up a lot of his patient’s testimonials. I read ‘The Man Who Mistook His Wife for A Hat’ for my A-Levels, but can’t remember a thing about it. The fact it was English Literature makes me think this isn’t a ‘Bombshell’

    Bombshell: Oliver Sacks (a humane man & a fine essayist) made up many of the details in his famous case studies, deluding neuroscientists, psychologists, & general readers for decades. The man who mistook his wife for a hat? The autistic twins who generated multi-digit prime numbers? The institutionalized, paralyzed man who tapped out allusions to Rilke? Made up to embellish the stories. Probably also: the aphasic patients who detected lies better than neurologically intact people, including Ronald Reagan's insincerity.

    https://x.com/sapinker/status/1999297395478106310?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    A Popular Science book turns out to be bollocks? Shocker.

    Compelling narrative and theme first, truth very distant second.

    I suppose at least you can't be breaking patient confidentiality if you're making it up...
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,510
    https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/5644770-noem-dhs-thompson-fema/

    Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem was accused of misleading House Homeland Security Committee members when she said she was departing a Thursday hearing early to attend another meeting that was actually canceled.

    It’s an assertion denied by Noem’s office, which said she only found out her meeting was canceled after she left the witness table.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,372
    Sean_F said:

    Trump is unpopular, but not massively so, unfortunately. His approval rating is still 44%.

    As a divisive figure in a polarised country there's a high floor to his unpopularity. It can fall to MAGA levels but MAGA is big.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,264

    Wrapping Christmas presents should be a competitive sport.

    With marks for speed, paper used, neatness.

    Points deducted for neatness

    Apparently studies have shown that if the wrapping is too neat, the recipients' expectations of the quality of the gift rise, leading to increased disappointment if they are not met
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,351
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It's a Wonderful Life.

    No other Christmas film comes close.

    I know this sounds bitter but I hate that film . I was hoping Stewart would jump ! I’m not averse to some feel good films but I found it just nauseating.
    I'm a sucker for a feel good film.
    My favourite film to watch over Christmas is Singing in the Rain .
    Not a Christmas film though. (Mind you, neither is The Sound of Music though it always seemed to be on every Christmas when I was a kid.)
    For similar reasons I think of The Great Escape as a Christmas film.
    Yes, it used to be a highlight of my childhood Xmasses, hoping that just one time McQueen would actually make it over that second fence. When the special Xmas Radio Times arrived I would rush to see when it was going to be on - as I vaguely recall, it dropped back from the Xmas day slot to later over the bank holidays. Then it disappeared from the Christmas TV schedule altogether, but occasionally surfaces over Easter.

    Anyhow, here's the dog at the very spot where the motorcycle/fence scene was filmed....

    Are you sure that's not the meadow that Maria runs across singing "The hills are alive..."?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_DyZaRJV0
    No, that's this one:


    Are you sure? Looks nothing like...

    image
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,372
    edited December 12
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    Felony drugs offences in 2009 doesn’t mean he’s a violent gang member.

    In any event, is he a veteran or not, which is the actual issue being discussed.
    You’re confusing two people, the gang member is a different individual the Democrats and media also keep lying about by omission.

    This guy is a veteran, but he wasn’t deported, he chose to leave the US of his own volition.
    Sandpit no offence but that’s total horseshit. Just because someone “self deported” under threat of indefinite detention doesn’t mean they chose to leave the US of their own volition. You really do drink the kool aid sometimes.
    Except that the Democrats said he was deported by Trump. Which was a lie.

    If they had said he was offered the chance to leave himself and took it, that would be truth.

    There’s two sides to every story, but too many people think that whatever Trump’s opponents say is absolute truth with nothing added and nothing missing.
    But there aren't two sides to every story. That's one of the problems with intense polarisation. It encourages partisans to say that when defending the indefensible.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566
    edited December 12

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    It's a Wonderful Life.

    No other Christmas film comes close.

    I know this sounds bitter but I hate that film . I was hoping Stewart would jump ! I’m not averse to some feel good films but I found it just nauseating.
    I'm a sucker for a feel good film.
    My favourite film to watch over Christmas is Singing in the Rain .
    Not a Christmas film though. (Mind you, neither is The Sound of Music though it always seemed to be on every Christmas when I was a kid.)
    For similar reasons I think of The Great Escape as a Christmas film.
    Yes, it used to be a highlight of my childhood Xmasses, hoping that just one time McQueen would actually make it over that second fence. When the special Xmas Radio Times arrived I would rush to see when it was going to be on - as I vaguely recall, it dropped back from the Xmas day slot to later over the bank holidays. Then it disappeared from the Christmas TV schedule altogether, but occasionally surfaces over Easter.

    Anyhow, here's the dog at the very spot where the motorcycle/fence scene was filmed....

    Are you sure that's not the meadow that Maria runs across singing "The hills are alive..."?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H_DyZaRJV0
    No, that's this one:


    Are you sure? Looks nothing like...

    image
    Yes, I'm sure. For the Great Escape scene, my photo is taken from where it was filmed, so if you compare the mountains on the horizon with those from the film, you can see it's the same place (I have a screenshot of McQueen there from the film, but have already posted too many photos).

    For the Sound of Music, the filming spot was that meadow in the middle ground, from which the ground falls away on all sides. But the fliming angle will have been different, since my photo was taken from the viewpoint on the main road. Looking at the two photos, and the way the land falls away behind your one, I'd guess the film was shot from the high ground looking down towards the right in my photo, with a different backdrop of mountains on the horizon, not in my shot being the horizon off to the right. But it could just as easily have been shot looking left (in which case you just don't see that there's a road there, tucked below the hill).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,644
    DavidL said:

    Good morning

    Maybe Starmer needs to accept his ratings are dire just as Trump has

    Depressing but all so predictable stat this morning providing more evidence that Reeves is completely out of her depth

    https://news.sky.com/story/economy-shrinks-by-0-1-in-october-official-figures-show-13482426

    The incompetence, leaking and complete chaos leading up to the budget had real world effects. Quelle surprise. And since the budget bond rates continue to creep up making our additional borrowing ever more expensive.
    I would be interested to know who was responsble for the pre budget chaos. I don't believe it would have been Reeves. A Chancellor has enough on their plate without half baked publicity stunts. It had the devastating effect of making her look unprofessional.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,102

    Morning all, I was going to post last night but didn't get round to it.

    America stands at a crossroads. We can see that the regime has two choices - fall next year, or embed itself for the long haul.

    If they follow the constitution then MAGA loses control, a lot of them go to jail, and perhaps America will once again align itself with democracy instead of with dictators. But that means various people taking the brave pill and doing the right thing.

    Or they do the other thing. The naughty list of media becomes the banned list. The opinion polls go the way of the economic measures he's dispensed with. And he provokes violence in cities by sending in blackshirts from out of state to create the excuse to send in more troops, arrest officials and "postpone" elections.

    In either case, the World Cup will be symbolic of the state of things. A bloated absurdity of a tournament where officials want 5 years of penis size measurements and a pledge of fealty to the fuhrer before they let you into a country where tickets for the tournament cost $fuckoff.

    I remember World Cup Italia 90, where for Egypt games there were a lot of Egyptian Navy personnel filling the seats. This time they will fill the seats with stormtroopers. With normals arrested at the end of the quarter...

    Mike Pence was a horrible man who nodded along to many horrible things between 2016 and 2020. But at the vital moment he stood firm and did the right thing.

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.
    Pence isn’t a horrible man. He’s a committed evangelical Christian and you probably don’t agree with many of his positions. But he’s not a “horrible man” any more than Sadiq Khan is.
    I can cope with the concept that many evangelical "Christians" are horrible because they seem to have a bible that only has bits of Genesis and Leviticus. All that woke Jesus stuff can get right out. We're about to see the same from the Reform "Christians" where Jesus opened the temple to the shirt sellers and told thy neighbour to fuck off from whence they came.

    As for Pence, his replacement is a man who called the President a Nazi and then decided that he wanted to be Rudolf Hess. Could Vance oust the regime? Sure - to install himself as leader.

    The big question remains Trump. We can say pretty confidently that he has serious health conditions. Will one of these incapacitate him and thus force a change? Or like previous mad dictators does he just step it up?
    That makes them wrong, not bad people.

    Trump was rightly criticised for describing Khan as “horrible” and “vicious”. Others should be held to the same standard
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566
    edited December 12
    In fact the direction of the shadows in those two photos indicate that the Sound of Music was probably shot looking to the left in my photo; my photo was middle of the day (12:52, to be precise), the film was clearly shot early morning or evening, looking at the length of her shadow.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,107

    Shocked

    Major investigation into GMP officers and staff making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers

    EXCLUSIVE: Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated amid a probe into 'non-legitimate contact' with sex workers, the Manchester Evening News can reveal


    A major investigation into Greater Manchester Police officers and staff allegedly making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers has been launched. Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated by the force's Anti-Corruption Unit.

    The probe into 'non-legitimate' police contact with sex workers was triggered by the case of Inspector Toby Knight. The disgraced cop scheduled hundreds of meetings with sex workers on his force-issued phone, including some while he was on duty.

    After serving nearly 30 years with GMP, Knight retired in May this year, the day before a gross misconduct hearing concluded that had he still been serving he would have been dismissed without notice.

    The force said eight police officers - including a Superintendent who has been suspended - and two staff members are under investigation. Knight and two staff members have already been dismissed. The two sacked civilian staff members have not been named.

    Four of those under investigation have been served with misconduct papers. Bosses do not believe the alleged actions of the 13 people are linked, other than by the nature of their alleged behaviour.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/major-investigation-gmp-officers-staff-33039651#

    Can't these people be prosecuted for Misconduct in Public Office?
    The State does not eat its own.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,102

    TimS said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scott_xP said:

    It's not a bubble...

    @gothburz

    Last quarter I rolled out Microsoft Copilot to 4,000 employees. $30 per seat per month. $1.4 million annually. I called it "digital transformation." The board loved that phrase. They approved it in eleven minutes. No one asked what it would actually do. Including me. I told everyone it would "10x productivity." That's not a real number. But it sounds like one. HR asked how we'd measure the 10x. I said we'd "leverage analytics dashboards." They stopped asking. Three months later I checked the usage reports. 47 people had opened it. 12 had used it more than once. One of them was me. I used it to summarize an email I could have read in 30 seconds. It took 45 seconds. Plus the time it took to fix the hallucinations. But I called it a "pilot success." Success means the pilot didn't visibly fail. The CFO asked about ROI. I showed him a graph. The graph went up and to the right. It measured "AI enablement." I made that metric up. He nodded approvingly. We're "AI-enabled" now. I don't know what that means. But it's in our investor deck. A senior developer asked why we didn't use Claude or ChatGPT. I said we needed "enterprise-grade security." He asked what that meant. I said "compliance." He asked which compliance. I said "all of them." He looked skeptical. I scheduled him for a "career development conversation." He stopped asking questions. Microsoft sent a case study team. They wanted to feature us as a success story. I told them we "saved 40,000 hours." I calculated that number by multiplying employees by a number I made up. They didn't verify it. They never do. Now we're on Microsoft's website. "Global enterprise achieves 40,000 hours of productivity gains with Copilot." The CEO shared it on LinkedIn. He got 3,000 likes. He's never used Copilot. None of the executives have. We have an exemption. "Strategic focus requires minimal digital distraction." I wrote that policy. The licenses renew next month. I'm requesting an expansion. 5,000 more seats. We haven't used the first 4,000. But this time we'll "drive adoption." Adoption means mandatory training. Training means a 45-minute webinar no one watches. But completion will be tracked. Completion is a metric. Metrics go in dashboards. Dashboards go in board presentations. Board presentations get me promoted. I'll be SVP by Q3. I still don't know what Copilot does. But I know what it's for. It's for showing we're "investing in AI." Investment means spending. Spending means commitment. Commitment means we're serious about the future. The future is whatever I say it is. As long as the graph goes up and to the right.

    https://x.com/gothburz/status/1999124665801880032?s=20

    I believe that's satire.
    But only just.
    It's terrifyingly close to our corporate rollout...
    Which has a family resemblance to the coming car-crash of AI in my workplace...
    Mine is rapidly adopting it, and it’s already speeding a lot of things up substantially.

    There may be a market bubble, but gen AI is not a mirage.
    I use Copilot every day (as well as ChatGPT, Claude and Gemini) and it is brilliant. Scary. But brilliant. However I use it as a sounding board and checking tool, not to summarise bullshit reports, etc. I was chatting to people about it at my Team’s Christmas dinner on Wednesday and people have no idea about it’s power.
    Hopefully you don’t put any case specific information into it
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,737

    Morning all, I was going to post last night but didn't get round to it.

    America stands at a crossroads. We can see that the regime has two choices - fall next year, or embed itself for the long haul.

    If they follow the constitution then MAGA loses control, a lot of them go to jail, and perhaps America will once again align itself with democracy instead of with dictators. But that means various people taking the brave pill and doing the right thing.

    Or they do the other thing. The naughty list of media becomes the banned list. The opinion polls go the way of the economic measures he's dispensed with. And he provokes violence in cities by sending in blackshirts from out of state to create the excuse to send in more troops, arrest officials and "postpone" elections.

    In either case, the World Cup will be symbolic of the state of things. A bloated absurdity of a tournament where officials want 5 years of penis size measurements and a pledge of fealty to the fuhrer before they let you into a country where tickets for the tournament cost $fuckoff.

    I remember World Cup Italia 90, where for Egypt games there were a lot of Egyptian Navy personnel filling the seats. This time they will fill the seats with stormtroopers. With normals arrested at the end of the quarter...

    Mike Pence was a horrible man who nodded along to many horrible things between 2016 and 2020. But at the vital moment he stood firm and did the right thing.

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.
    Pence isn’t a horrible man. He’s a committed evangelical Christian and you probably don’t agree with many of his positions. But he’s not a “horrible man” any more than Sadiq Khan is.
    I can cope with the concept that many evangelical "Christians" are horrible because they seem to have a bible that only has bits of Genesis and Leviticus. All that woke Jesus stuff can get right out. We're about to see the same from the Reform "Christians" where Jesus opened the temple to the shirt sellers and told thy neighbour to fuck off from whence they came.

    As for Pence, his replacement is a man who called the President a Nazi and then decided that he wanted to be Rudolf Hess. Could Vance oust the regime? Sure - to install himself as leader.

    The big question remains Trump. We can say pretty confidently that he has serious health conditions. Will one of these incapacitate him and thus force a change? Or like previous mad dictators does he just step it up?
    That makes them wrong, not bad people.

    Trump was rightly criticised for describing Khan as “horrible” and “vicious”. Others should be held to the same standard
    There are a lot of bad ideas, but very few bad people once we get past the Putins of this world.

    Yes Trump does sometimes go too far with his language, and American political discourse in general is much more coarse than elsewhere, even before the current incumbent takes it to another level.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,644

    It's very bad. People are saying it's the worst polling they've ever seen.

    Americans seem to have taken over from the Russians as the most obvious non French block on the Cote d'Azur. Maybe they're escaping?
  • glwglw Posts: 10,640

    Wrapping Christmas presents should be a competitive sport.

    With marks for speed, paper used, neatness.

    Speed, paper use, neatness. Pick any two.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,641
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    Felony drugs offences in 2009 doesn’t mean he’s a violent gang member.

    In any event, is he a veteran or not, which is the actual issue being discussed.
    You’re confusing two people, the gang member is a different individual the Democrats and media also keep lying about by omission.

    This guy is a veteran, but he wasn’t deported, he chose to leave the US of his own volition.
    Sandpit no offence but that’s total horseshit. Just because someone “self deported” under threat of indefinite detention doesn’t mean they chose to leave the US of their own volition. You really do drink the kool aid sometimes.
    Except that the Democrats said he was deported by Trump. Which was a lie.

    If they had said he was offered the chance to leave himself and took it, that would be truth.

    There’s two sides to every story, but too many people think that whatever Trump’s opponents say is absolute truth with nothing added and nothing missing.
    Shall we split the difference and say Mr Park was made an offer he couldn't refuse?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,264
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, I was going to post last night but didn't get round to it.

    America stands at a crossroads. We can see that the regime has two choices - fall next year, or embed itself for the long haul.

    If they follow the constitution then MAGA loses control, a lot of them go to jail, and perhaps America will once again align itself with democracy instead of with dictators. But that means various people taking the brave pill and doing the right thing.

    Or they do the other thing. The naughty list of media becomes the banned list. The opinion polls go the way of the economic measures he's dispensed with. And he provokes violence in cities by sending in blackshirts from out of state to create the excuse to send in more troops, arrest officials and "postpone" elections.

    In either case, the World Cup will be symbolic of the state of things. A bloated absurdity of a tournament where officials want 5 years of penis size measurements and a pledge of fealty to the fuhrer before they let you into a country where tickets for the tournament cost $fuckoff.

    I remember World Cup Italia 90, where for Egypt games there were a lot of Egyptian Navy personnel filling the seats. This time they will fill the seats with stormtroopers. With normals arrested at the end of the quarter...

    Mike Pence was a horrible man who nodded along to many horrible things between 2016 and 2020. But at the vital moment he stood firm and did the right thing.

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.
    Pence isn’t a horrible man. He’s a committed evangelical Christian and you probably don’t agree with many of his positions. But he’s not a “horrible man” any more than Sadiq Khan is.
    I can cope with the concept that many evangelical "Christians" are horrible because they seem to have a bible that only has bits of Genesis and Leviticus. All that woke Jesus stuff can get right out. We're about to see the same from the Reform "Christians" where Jesus opened the temple to the shirt sellers and told thy neighbour to fuck off from whence they came.

    As for Pence, his replacement is a man who called the President a Nazi and then decided that he wanted to be Rudolf Hess. Could Vance oust the regime? Sure - to install himself as leader.

    The big question remains Trump. We can say pretty confidently that he has serious health conditions. Will one of these incapacitate him and thus force a change? Or like previous mad dictators does he just step it up?
    That makes them wrong, not bad people.

    Trump was rightly criticised for describing Khan as “horrible” and “vicious”. Others should be held to the same standard
    There are a lot of bad ideas, but very few bad people once we get past the Putins of this world.

    Yes Trump does sometimes go too far with his language, and American political discourse in general is much more coarse than elsewhere, even before the current incumbent takes it to another level.
    8 years ago Trump denied calling countries shitholes

    Now he boasts about it
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 2,107
    kinabalu said:

    Sean_F said:

    Trump is unpopular, but not massively so, unfortunately. His approval rating is still 44%.

    As a divisive figure in a polarised country there's a high floor to his unpopularity. It can fall to MAGA levels but MAGA is big.
    The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority.

    The best example I know that gives insights into the functioning of a complex system is with the following situation. It suffices for an intransigent minority –a certain type of intransigent minorities –to reach a minutely small level, say three or four percent of the total population, for the entire population to have to submit to their preferences. Further, an optical illusion comes with the dominance of the minority: a naive observer would be under the impression that the choices and preferences are those of the majority.


    https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566
    edited December 12
    CORRECTION - Sound of Music correction - both the opening and closing scenes were filmed in Bavaria, with the rest filmed in Austria - but the location in my photo was used for the last parts of the film, not the opening - which was filmed in the same region but a few miles to the north. You can't visit the site of the opening scene as it's privately owned and they don't want visitors. @benpointer was right; my apologies for any confusion!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,737
    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    Felony drugs offences in 2009 doesn’t mean he’s a violent gang member.

    In any event, is he a veteran or not, which is the actual issue being discussed.
    You’re confusing two people, the gang member is a different individual the Democrats and media also keep lying about by omission.

    This guy is a veteran, but he wasn’t deported, he chose to leave the US of his own volition.
    Sandpit no offence but that’s total horseshit. Just because someone “self deported” under threat of indefinite detention doesn’t mean they chose to leave the US of their own volition. You really do drink the kool aid sometimes.
    Except that the Democrats said he was deported by Trump. Which was a lie.

    If they had said he was offered the chance to leave himself and took it, that would be truth.

    There’s two sides to every story, but too many people think that whatever Trump’s opponents say is absolute truth with nothing added and nothing missing.
    Shall we split the difference and say Mr Park was made an offer he couldn't refuse?
    That much is definitely true!

    You really don’t want the US federal government going after you, especially not when the President sees your specific problem as a national priority.

    I recall seeing figures that suggested that an order of magnitude more wanted people have left the country of their own volition for every one who gets deported against their will, which solves a lot of the problems without costing the government too much money.

    People who have overstayed or have been ordered deported know they really should leave the US, and prefer to go quietly rather than risk a knock on the door in the middle of the night. We’ve all seen how American police “knock” on doors, they start from the assumption that anyone they’re looking for is heavily armed and go in accordingly.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566
    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,102
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    Usually the way self-deportation works is you are given a choice between self-deporting with the ability to reapply or being deported with a big red line through your record meaning you can never come back again.

    It sounds good on social media posts but reality is usually more complicated (this is not to say the democrats aren’t idiots for highlighting this case)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 12,102
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Given this is a new thread but this is important for TSE I will post this again.

    Definitive proof that Die Hard is a Christmas Movie

    If you watch Die Hard straight after Love Actually, Alan Rickman will be punished for what he did to Emma Thompson.

    As a man of the people I speak for the nation.


    A majority of Brits voted for Brexit though…
    Not ones who are still alive? ;)
    Is Rinka-ing Brexit voters an official Lib Dem policy… 😉
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,413
    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    Actually you can do both.

    "Shrilly demonising" is a pretty loaded term from on the Economist editorialist, who themselves say "doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn.."
    Are they suggesting that just be ignored ?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,190
    Battlebus said:

    Shocked

    Major investigation into GMP officers and staff making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers

    EXCLUSIVE: Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated amid a probe into 'non-legitimate contact' with sex workers, the Manchester Evening News can reveal


    A major investigation into Greater Manchester Police officers and staff allegedly making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers has been launched. Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated by the force's Anti-Corruption Unit.

    The probe into 'non-legitimate' police contact with sex workers was triggered by the case of Inspector Toby Knight. The disgraced cop scheduled hundreds of meetings with sex workers on his force-issued phone, including some while he was on duty.

    After serving nearly 30 years with GMP, Knight retired in May this year, the day before a gross misconduct hearing concluded that had he still been serving he would have been dismissed without notice.

    The force said eight police officers - including a Superintendent who has been suspended - and two staff members are under investigation. Knight and two staff members have already been dismissed. The two sacked civilian staff members have not been named.

    Four of those under investigation have been served with misconduct papers. Bosses do not believe the alleged actions of the 13 people are linked, other than by the nature of their alleged behaviour.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/major-investigation-gmp-officers-staff-33039651#

    Can't these people be prosecuted for Misconduct in Public Office?
    The State does not eat its own.
    The state does eat its own. But reluctantly and starting with the most junior (and innocent) first.

    The Post Office investigation will taking 8 years. At the end, they will report that some are dead, others retired or moved on to new jobs. So it wouldn’t be in the public interest to prosecute.

    But the lady who cleans on Thursdays will face a prison sentence.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,737

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    Usually the way self-deportation works is you are given a choice between self-deporting with the ability to reapply or being deported with a big red line through your record meaning you can never come back again.

    It sounds good on social media posts but reality is usually more complicated (this is not to say the democrats aren’t idiots for highlighting this case)
    Oh absolutely.

    What I don’t understand is the Dems highlighting cases that, when the full facts are known, most people think probably should be deported. They hope that only half the story makes their case appear better, and trust their friendly media to keep reinforcing half the story.

    Having lost to Trump, of all people, by consistently being on the wrong side of a whole bunch of 80-20 social issues, they appear not to have learned their lesson and keep doing it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,510

    Battlebus said:

    Shocked

    Major investigation into GMP officers and staff making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers

    EXCLUSIVE: Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated amid a probe into 'non-legitimate contact' with sex workers, the Manchester Evening News can reveal


    A major investigation into Greater Manchester Police officers and staff allegedly making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers has been launched. Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated by the force's Anti-Corruption Unit.

    The probe into 'non-legitimate' police contact with sex workers was triggered by the case of Inspector Toby Knight. The disgraced cop scheduled hundreds of meetings with sex workers on his force-issued phone, including some while he was on duty.

    After serving nearly 30 years with GMP, Knight retired in May this year, the day before a gross misconduct hearing concluded that had he still been serving he would have been dismissed without notice.

    The force said eight police officers - including a Superintendent who has been suspended - and two staff members are under investigation. Knight and two staff members have already been dismissed. The two sacked civilian staff members have not been named.

    Four of those under investigation have been served with misconduct papers. Bosses do not believe the alleged actions of the 13 people are linked, other than by the nature of their alleged behaviour.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/major-investigation-gmp-officers-staff-33039651#

    Can't these people be prosecuted for Misconduct in Public Office?
    The State does not eat its own.
    The state does eat its own. But reluctantly and starting with the most junior (and innocent) first.

    The Post Office investigation will taking 8 years. At the end, they will report that some are dead, others retired or moved on to new jobs. So it wouldn’t be in the public interest to prosecute.

    But the lady who cleans on Thursdays will face a prison sentence.
    I think you exaggerate for effect, but there are some real numbers at https://www.spotlightcorruption.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/MIPO-Presentation-final-25.2.25.pdf

    Of the 191 people convicted of MIPO [misconduct in public office] since January 2014 where information is in the
    public domain from case law, law pages and news reports:

    ○ 92%of MIPO offenders were police and prison staff (57%police, 35%prison staff).
    ○ 98%of offenders were junior to mid-level officers.
    ○ Only four offenders occupied ‘senior executive’ office at the time of their
    offending. They are:

    ■ Peter Ball, the Bishop of Lewes (for indecent assault, and the misuse of his office and
    authority to manipulate young men for sexual gratification).
    ■ Jeffrey Cook, Business Manager at the Ministry of Defence (receiving commission payments
    while an employee of the MoD, at the expense of the public purse).
    ■ Janice McAleese, CEO of a Northern Ireland public body (making unauthorised payments to a
    company and receiving payments for that company).
    ■ James Stewart, a secondary school Headteacher (defrauding his school out of £100,000)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,413
    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    You still fall for MAGA lies. Here, https://www.hirono.senate.gov/news/press-releases/hirono-blumenthal-demand-answers-on-forced-self-deportation-of-disabled-purple-heart-veteran-in-hawaii , Dem Senator Hirono sets out the case. The letter notes that his green card was revoked, but he was allowed to stay. The letter notes that he self-deported, because the Trump administration forced him to. The Democrats never said he was a citizen. All this was stated by the Democrats back in August.
    You don't think that revoking his green card was a way of getting him to self-deport ?
    In 2009, by Obama, after felony drugs offences and skipping bail.

    It’s rather amusing to see the Democrats line up behind the idea that foreign felons shouldn’t be deported, of course totally forgetting to mention the felony bit.

    It’s “Maryland Man” all over again, they think that if they keep omitting and ignoring that he’s a violent gang member, people will eventually believe he’s just a happy family man being deported by Evil Orange.
    Felony drugs offences in 2009 doesn’t mean he’s a violent gang member.

    In any event, is he a veteran or not, which is the actual issue being discussed.
    You’re confusing two people, the gang member is a different individual the Democrats and media also keep lying about by omission.

    This guy is a veteran, but he wasn’t deported, he chose to leave the US of his own volition.
    Sandpit no offence but that’s total horseshit. Just because someone “self deported” under threat of indefinite detention doesn’t mean they chose to leave the US of their own volition. You really do drink the kool aid sometimes.
    Except that the Democrats said he was deported by Trump. Which was a lie.

    If they had said he was offered the chance to leave himself and took it, that would be truth.

    There’s two sides to every story, but too many people think that whatever Trump’s opponents say is absolute truth with nothing added and nothing missing.
    Shall we split the difference and say Mr Park was made an offer he couldn't refuse?
    That much is definitely true!

    You really don’t want the US federal government going after you, especially not when the President sees your specific problem as a national priority.

    I recall seeing figures that suggested that an order of magnitude more wanted people have left the country of their own volition for every one who gets deported against their will, which solves a lot of the problems without costing the government too much money.

    People who have overstayed or have been ordered deported know they really should leave the US, and prefer to go quietly rather than risk a knock on the door in the middle of the night. We’ve all seen how American police “knock” on doors, they start from the assumption that anyone they’re looking for is heavily armed and go in accordingly.
    ICE are not a police force.
    They're a bunch of paramilitary thugs who routinely violate the law.

    And they are increasingly unpopular.
    https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/53394-majorities-of-americans-disapprove-of-ice
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 12,797

    This is a good point, to wit why are those individuals and organisations who usually treat the sight of a Palestinian flag as presaging a new Holocaust silent about Farage's antisemitism?

    Robert Peston
    @Peston
    ·
    18h
    JONATHAN FREEDLAND: Why Britain's Jewish leaders are silent on Farage’s schoolyard antisemitism - Jewish News

    https://x.com/Peston/status/1999126741218926705?s=20

    This does not seem like a good strategy.

    'A more truthful explanation for the Jewish organisations’ silence comes in private conversations. In those, communal figures will admit that they believe the accusations against Farage are true, but that they have made a pragmatic calculation. “He’s the coming man and right now he’s not hostile to us,” was how one senior official put it to me. They don’t want to make an enemy of a politician who, polls suggest, is heading to Downing Street.'



    Eeeesht.

    It might be time for polling. 37% of Republicans have some form of Holocaust denial - you'd hope that wasn't the case among Reform voters, but if they're swimming in the same social media...

    The other concern is that overt support for Israel on the far-right is ultimately a function of Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing of Gaza (and the Muslims that live there), not an indicator for a particular tolerance of Jews.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,510
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    Usually the way self-deportation works is you are given a choice between self-deporting with the ability to reapply or being deported with a big red line through your record meaning you can never come back again.

    It sounds good on social media posts but reality is usually more complicated (this is not to say the democrats aren’t idiots for highlighting this case)
    Oh absolutely.

    What I don’t understand is the Dems highlighting cases that, when the full facts are known, most people think probably should be deported. They hope that only half the story makes their case appear better, and trust their friendly media to keep reinforcing half the story.

    Having lost to Trump, of all people, by consistently being on the wrong side of a whole bunch of 80-20 social issues, they appear not to have learned their lesson and keep doing it.
    From the header on Trump's approval ratings:

    🟤 Crime: -12 (was +8 in Aug)
    🟤 Immigration: -22 (new low)


    It seems to me that the Dems are getting their message across very effectively.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,413
    edited December 12
    Cookie said:

    @Foxy , @MattW , @rcs1000 etc - just caught up on your comments from last night: fair enough, I hold my hand up: the figure I had for 1995 was clearly erroneous. On which basis I am wrong.

    Good for you, Cookie.
    I've occasionally admitted the same, and perhaps should do so more often.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,190

    Battlebus said:

    Shocked

    Major investigation into GMP officers and staff making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers

    EXCLUSIVE: Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated amid a probe into 'non-legitimate contact' with sex workers, the Manchester Evening News can reveal


    A major investigation into Greater Manchester Police officers and staff allegedly making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers has been launched. Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated by the force's Anti-Corruption Unit.

    The probe into 'non-legitimate' police contact with sex workers was triggered by the case of Inspector Toby Knight. The disgraced cop scheduled hundreds of meetings with sex workers on his force-issued phone, including some while he was on duty.

    After serving nearly 30 years with GMP, Knight retired in May this year, the day before a gross misconduct hearing concluded that had he still been serving he would have been dismissed without notice.

    The force said eight police officers - including a Superintendent who has been suspended - and two staff members are under investigation. Knight and two staff members have already been dismissed. The two sacked civilian staff members have not been named.

    Four of those under investigation have been served with misconduct papers. Bosses do not believe the alleged actions of the 13 people are linked, other than by the nature of their alleged behaviour.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/major-investigation-gmp-officers-staff-33039651#

    Can't these people be prosecuted for Misconduct in Public Office?
    The State does not eat its own.
    The state does eat its own. But reluctantly and starting with the most junior (and innocent) first.

    The Post Office investigation will taking 8 years. At the end, they will report that some are dead, others retired or moved on to new jobs. So it wouldn’t be in the public interest to prosecute.

    But the lady who cleans on Thursdays will face a prison sentence.
    I think you exaggerate for effect, but there are some real numbers at https://www.spotlightcorruption.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/MIPO-Presentation-final-25.2.25.pdf

    Of the 191 people convicted of MIPO [misconduct in public office] since January 2014 where information is in the
    public domain from case law, law pages and news reports:

    ○ 92%of MIPO offenders were police and prison staff (57%police, 35%prison staff).
    ○ 98%of offenders were junior to mid-level officers.
    ○ Only four offenders occupied ‘senior executive’ office at the time of their
    offending. They are:

    ■ Peter Ball, the Bishop of Lewes (for indecent assault, and the misuse of his office and
    authority to manipulate young men for sexual gratification).
    ■ Jeffrey Cook, Business Manager at the Ministry of Defence (receiving commission payments
    while an employee of the MoD, at the expense of the public purse).
    ■ Janice McAleese, CEO of a Northern Ireland public body (making unauthorised payments to a
    company and receiving payments for that company).
    ■ James Stewart, a secondary school Headteacher (defrauding his school out of £100,000)
    “98% were junior to mid-level”
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566
    edited December 12

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Given this is a new thread but this is important for TSE I will post this again.

    Definitive proof that Die Hard is a Christmas Movie

    If you watch Die Hard straight after Love Actually, Alan Rickman will be punished for what he did to Emma Thompson.

    As a man of the people I speak for the nation.


    A majority of Brits voted for Brexit though…
    Not ones who are still alive? ;)
    Is Rinka-ing Brexit voters an official Lib Dem policy… 😉
    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/2016-leave-majority-has-literally-died-out-polling-expert-reveals-401296/

    The pro-Brexit majority from 2016 has disappeared, thanks in large part to millions of Leave voters having died, according to a polling expert.

    YouGov founder Peter Kellner has carried out research concluding that there is likely a pro-EU majority of around 8 million.

    Using voter turnout and demographic statistics from the referendum, Kellner said it could be assumed that 5 million of those who have died voted in the referendum.

    Of this 5 million, some 3.2 million will have voted Leave.

    He wrote: “This means that among people who are alive today and who voted in the 2016 referendum, remainers exceed leavers by 14.3-14.2 million.”
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,164
    edited December 12

    Battlebus said:

    Shocked

    Major investigation into GMP officers and staff making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers

    EXCLUSIVE: Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated amid a probe into 'non-legitimate contact' with sex workers, the Manchester Evening News can reveal


    A major investigation into Greater Manchester Police officers and staff allegedly making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers has been launched. Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated by the force's Anti-Corruption Unit.

    The probe into 'non-legitimate' police contact with sex workers was triggered by the case of Inspector Toby Knight. The disgraced cop scheduled hundreds of meetings with sex workers on his force-issued phone, including some while he was on duty.

    After serving nearly 30 years with GMP, Knight retired in May this year, the day before a gross misconduct hearing concluded that had he still been serving he would have been dismissed without notice.

    The force said eight police officers - including a Superintendent who has been suspended - and two staff members are under investigation. Knight and two staff members have already been dismissed. The two sacked civilian staff members have not been named.

    Four of those under investigation have been served with misconduct papers. Bosses do not believe the alleged actions of the 13 people are linked, other than by the nature of their alleged behaviour.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/major-investigation-gmp-officers-staff-33039651#

    Can't these people be prosecuted for Misconduct in Public Office?
    The State does not eat its own.
    The state does eat its own. But reluctantly and starting with the most junior (and innocent) first.

    The Post Office investigation will taking 8 years. At the end, they will report that some are dead, others retired or moved on to new jobs. So it wouldn’t be in the public interest to prosecute.

    But the lady who cleans on Thursdays will face a prison sentence.
    The separate police enquiry have spent £7m so far. For which they have conducted 7 interviews across 4 people in 6 years. No arrests. £1m per (pointless) interview, average one per year. 102 officers working on it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,510

    Battlebus said:

    Shocked

    Major investigation into GMP officers and staff making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers

    EXCLUSIVE: Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated amid a probe into 'non-legitimate contact' with sex workers, the Manchester Evening News can reveal


    A major investigation into Greater Manchester Police officers and staff allegedly making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers has been launched. Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated by the force's Anti-Corruption Unit.

    The probe into 'non-legitimate' police contact with sex workers was triggered by the case of Inspector Toby Knight. The disgraced cop scheduled hundreds of meetings with sex workers on his force-issued phone, including some while he was on duty.

    After serving nearly 30 years with GMP, Knight retired in May this year, the day before a gross misconduct hearing concluded that had he still been serving he would have been dismissed without notice.

    The force said eight police officers - including a Superintendent who has been suspended - and two staff members are under investigation. Knight and two staff members have already been dismissed. The two sacked civilian staff members have not been named.

    Four of those under investigation have been served with misconduct papers. Bosses do not believe the alleged actions of the 13 people are linked, other than by the nature of their alleged behaviour.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/major-investigation-gmp-officers-staff-33039651#

    Can't these people be prosecuted for Misconduct in Public Office?
    The State does not eat its own.
    The state does eat its own. But reluctantly and starting with the most junior (and innocent) first.

    The Post Office investigation will taking 8 years. At the end, they will report that some are dead, others retired or moved on to new jobs. So it wouldn’t be in the public interest to prosecute.

    But the lady who cleans on Thursdays will face a prison sentence.
    I think you exaggerate for effect, but there are some real numbers at https://www.spotlightcorruption.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/MIPO-Presentation-final-25.2.25.pdf

    Of the 191 people convicted of MIPO [misconduct in public office] since January 2014 where information is in the
    public domain from case law, law pages and news reports:

    ○ 92%of MIPO offenders were police and prison staff (57%police, 35%prison staff).
    ○ 98%of offenders were junior to mid-level officers.
    ○ Only four offenders occupied ‘senior executive’ office at the time of their
    offending. They are:

    ■ Peter Ball, the Bishop of Lewes (for indecent assault, and the misuse of his office and
    authority to manipulate young men for sexual gratification).
    ■ Jeffrey Cook, Business Manager at the Ministry of Defence (receiving commission payments
    while an employee of the MoD, at the expense of the public purse).
    ■ Janice McAleese, CEO of a Northern Ireland public body (making unauthorised payments to a
    company and receiving payments for that company).
    ■ James Stewart, a secondary school Headteacher (defrauding his school out of £100,000)
    “98% were junior to mid-level”
    Indeed, but they also weren't "the lady who cleans on Thursdays".
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,441
    36% means Vance probably isn't getting the fabled VP going onto a presidential victory that Van Buren, Tyler, Fillmore, Johnson, Arthur, Teddy R, Coolidge, Truman, LBJ & Bush managed.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,164

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    Usually the way self-deportation works is you are given a choice between self-deporting with the ability to reapply or being deported with a big red line through your record meaning you can never come back again.

    It sounds good on social media posts but reality is usually more complicated (this is not to say the democrats aren’t idiots for highlighting this case)
    Oh absolutely.

    What I don’t understand is the Dems highlighting cases that, when the full facts are known, most people think probably should be deported. They hope that only half the story makes their case appear better, and trust their friendly media to keep reinforcing half the story.

    Having lost to Trump, of all people, by consistently being on the wrong side of a whole bunch of 80-20 social issues, they appear not to have learned their lesson and keep doing it.
    From the header on Trump's approval ratings:

    🟤 Crime: -12 (was +8 in Aug)
    🟤 Immigration: -22 (new low)


    It seems to me that the Dems are getting their message across very effectively.
    Trump being unpopular is different to the Dems being popular. It is probably enough for the Dems to win the next set of fair elections, if they are held. But as soon as the Dems take power, they will be unpopular again and the next MAGA will be next in line.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,987
    edited December 12

    Just a word of warning for anyone wanting to travel to the World Cup next year: think twice before posting on this thread.

    Just for the record, I shitpost as much as many about Trump on here, but didn't have the slightest difficulty getting into the US last month.

    So though we can blame him for undermining the rule of law, murdering random people on the high seas, undermining the economy, trashing the constitution and destroying America's standing in the free world, we can absolve him of the ultimate crime against humanity of banning PBers from the US.

    He's not a monster after all.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,369
    Eabhal said:

    This is a good point, to wit why are those individuals and organisations who usually treat the sight of a Palestinian flag as presaging a new Holocaust silent about Farage's antisemitism?

    Robert Peston
    @Peston
    ·
    18h
    JONATHAN FREEDLAND: Why Britain's Jewish leaders are silent on Farage’s schoolyard antisemitism - Jewish News

    https://x.com/Peston/status/1999126741218926705?s=20

    This does not seem like a good strategy.

    'A more truthful explanation for the Jewish organisations’ silence comes in private conversations. In those, communal figures will admit that they believe the accusations against Farage are true, but that they have made a pragmatic calculation. “He’s the coming man and right now he’s not hostile to us,” was how one senior official put it to me. They don’t want to make an enemy of a politician who, polls suggest, is heading to Downing Street.'



    Eeeesht.

    It might be time for polling. 37% of Republicans have some form of Holocaust denial - you'd hope that wasn't the case among Reform voters, but if they're swimming in the same social media...

    The other concern is that overt support for Israel on the far-right is ultimately a function of Netanyahu's ethnic cleansing of Gaza (and the Muslims that live there), not an indicator for a particular tolerance of Jews.
    In the USA support from Evangelicals on the Right for Israel is also because the return of Jews to Israel is a precursor of the Second Coming and the Apocalypse. It isn't because they like them.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,051
    ...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,413
    edited December 12
    Pulpstar said:

    36% means Vance probably isn't getting the fabled VP going onto a presidential victory that Van Buren, Tyler, Fillmore, Johnson, Arthur, Teddy R, Coolidge, Truman, LBJ & Bush managed.

    Teddy R, Coolidge, Truman and LBJ were already President when they ran for the office.
    Tyler, Fillmore and Arthur didn't win at all; they simply inherited the office.

    Given what appears to be the state of Trump's health, Vance has a fair chance of being a Fillmore.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566
    Fishing said:

    Just a word of warning for anyone wanting to travel to the World Cup next year: think twice before posting on this thread.

    Just for the record, I shitpost as much as many about Trump on here, but didn't have the slightest difficulty getting into the US last month.

    So though we can blame him for undermining the rule of law, murdering random people on the high seas, undermining the economy, trashing the constitution and destroying America's standing in the free world, we can absolve him of the ultimate crime against humanity of banning PBers from the US.

    He's not a monster after all.
    I'm about to cancel my long-booked crossing to the US for next autumn, and am planning to take the dog to Crete instead.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,302
    IanB2 said:

    Fishing said:

    Just a word of warning for anyone wanting to travel to the World Cup next year: think twice before posting on this thread.

    Just for the record, I shitpost as much as many about Trump on here, but didn't have the slightest difficulty getting into the US last month.

    So though we can blame him for undermining the rule of law, murdering random people on the high seas, undermining the economy, trashing the constitution and destroying America's standing in the free world, we can absolve him of the ultimate crime against humanity of banning PBers from the US.

    He's not a monster after all.
    I'm about to cancel my long-booked crossing to the US for next autumn, and am planning to take the dog to Crete instead.
    Hope you see some splendid ruins.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,818
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 69,243
    Peston: The only silver lining is that the Bank of England will undoubtedly cut interest rates next week by 0.25%


    Andrew Sentance
    @asentance

    A cut in interest rates is not a “silver lining” when inflation is running persistently above target and unlikely to fall significantly next year.

    https://x.com/asentance/status/1999404212501762380


  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,987
    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 84,413
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    36% means Vance probably isn't getting the fabled VP going onto a presidential victory that Van Buren, Tyler, Fillmore, Johnson, Arthur, Teddy R, Coolidge, Truman, LBJ & Bush managed.

    Teddy R, Coolidge, Truman and LBJ were already President when they ran for the office.
    Tyler, Fillmore and Arthur didn't win at all; they simply inherited the office.

    Given what appears to be the state of Trump's health, Vance has a fair chance of being a Fillmore.
    I inadvertently missed out Johnson, another in the second category.

    Bush senior's achievement was singular, and it's extremely unlikely to be equalled by sofa guy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,566
    Of the thirteen local by-elections in Devon this year, the LibDems have won....all thirteen!
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,164
    IanB2 said:

    Of the thirteen local by-elections in Devon this year, the LibDems have won....all thirteen!

    So the Tories are almost scone?
  • JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 7,665

    Peston: The only silver lining is that the Bank of England will undoubtedly cut interest rates next week by 0.25%


    Andrew Sentance
    @asentance

    A cut in interest rates is not a “silver lining” when inflation is running persistently above target and unlikely to fall significantly next year.

    https://x.com/asentance/status/1999404212501762380


    Really? I expect a significant fall in April.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,641

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    Usually the way self-deportation works is you are given a choice between self-deporting with the ability to reapply or being deported with a big red line through your record meaning you can never come back again.

    It sounds good on social media posts but reality is usually more complicated (this is not to say the democrats aren’t idiots for highlighting this case)
    Oh absolutely.

    What I don’t understand is the Dems highlighting cases that, when the full facts are known, most people think probably should be deported. They hope that only half the story makes their case appear better, and trust their friendly media to keep reinforcing half the story.

    Having lost to Trump, of all people, by consistently being on the wrong side of a whole bunch of 80-20 social issues, they appear not to have learned their lesson and keep doing it.
    From the header on Trump's approval ratings:

    🟤 Crime: -12 (was +8 in Aug)
    🟤 Immigration: -22 (new low)


    It seems to me that the Dems are getting their message across very effectively.
    Trump being unpopular is different to the Dems being popular. It is probably enough for the Dems to win the next set of fair elections, if they are held. But as soon as the Dems take power, they will be unpopular again and the next MAGA will be next in line.
    There's some analysis out that contrary to common belief, the Harris campaign was actually quite effective. Where they went head-to-head with Trump in marginal states they were able to pull back. The problem was they weren't able to pull back enough with an electorate that was disinclined to give the Democrats time of day.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,190

    Battlebus said:

    Shocked

    Major investigation into GMP officers and staff making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers

    EXCLUSIVE: Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated amid a probe into 'non-legitimate contact' with sex workers, the Manchester Evening News can reveal


    A major investigation into Greater Manchester Police officers and staff allegedly making 'non-legitimate' contact with sex workers has been launched. Three people have been sacked and another 10 are being investigated by the force's Anti-Corruption Unit.

    The probe into 'non-legitimate' police contact with sex workers was triggered by the case of Inspector Toby Knight. The disgraced cop scheduled hundreds of meetings with sex workers on his force-issued phone, including some while he was on duty.

    After serving nearly 30 years with GMP, Knight retired in May this year, the day before a gross misconduct hearing concluded that had he still been serving he would have been dismissed without notice.

    The force said eight police officers - including a Superintendent who has been suspended - and two staff members are under investigation. Knight and two staff members have already been dismissed. The two sacked civilian staff members have not been named.

    Four of those under investigation have been served with misconduct papers. Bosses do not believe the alleged actions of the 13 people are linked, other than by the nature of their alleged behaviour.


    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/major-investigation-gmp-officers-staff-33039651#

    Can't these people be prosecuted for Misconduct in Public Office?
    The State does not eat its own.
    The state does eat its own. But reluctantly and starting with the most junior (and innocent) first.

    The Post Office investigation will taking 8 years. At the end, they will report that some are dead, others retired or moved on to new jobs. So it wouldn’t be in the public interest to prosecute.

    But the lady who cleans on Thursdays will face a prison sentence.
    I think you exaggerate for effect, but there are some real numbers at https://www.spotlightcorruption.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/MIPO-Presentation-final-25.2.25.pdf

    Of the 191 people convicted of MIPO [misconduct in public office] since January 2014 where information is in the
    public domain from case law, law pages and news reports:

    ○ 92%of MIPO offenders were police and prison staff (57%police, 35%prison staff).
    ○ 98%of offenders were junior to mid-level officers.
    ○ Only four offenders occupied ‘senior executive’ office at the time of their
    offending. They are:

    ■ Peter Ball, the Bishop of Lewes (for indecent assault, and the misuse of his office and
    authority to manipulate young men for sexual gratification).
    ■ Jeffrey Cook, Business Manager at the Ministry of Defence (receiving commission payments
    while an employee of the MoD, at the expense of the public purse).
    ■ Janice McAleese, CEO of a Northern Ireland public body (making unauthorised payments to a
    company and receiving payments for that company).
    ■ James Stewart, a secondary school Headteacher (defrauding his school out of £100,000)
    “98% were junior to mid-level”
    Indeed, but they also weren't "the lady who cleans on Thursdays".
    She’s a vice-president of environmental services
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 46,039
    The best set of pins in showbiz, Stanley Baxter, deid.

    https://x.com/crowleyonair/status/1999435592313323664?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 41,264
    I worked on Panto with him once
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,641
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    By "completely wrong" I think you mean "doesn't agree with my priors".

    Mind you, we are all guilty of that.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 331
    Reform gain in Whitburn

    Ref UK 1177
    SNP 1028
    Lab 627
    Ind Lynch 484
    Con 129
    LD 102
    Green 101
    Ind Millar 27
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 26,164
    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    Usually the way self-deportation works is you are given a choice between self-deporting with the ability to reapply or being deported with a big red line through your record meaning you can never come back again.

    It sounds good on social media posts but reality is usually more complicated (this is not to say the democrats aren’t idiots for highlighting this case)
    Oh absolutely.

    What I don’t understand is the Dems highlighting cases that, when the full facts are known, most people think probably should be deported. They hope that only half the story makes their case appear better, and trust their friendly media to keep reinforcing half the story.

    Having lost to Trump, of all people, by consistently being on the wrong side of a whole bunch of 80-20 social issues, they appear not to have learned their lesson and keep doing it.
    From the header on Trump's approval ratings:

    🟤 Crime: -12 (was +8 in Aug)
    🟤 Immigration: -22 (new low)


    It seems to me that the Dems are getting their message across very effectively.
    Trump being unpopular is different to the Dems being popular. It is probably enough for the Dems to win the next set of fair elections, if they are held. But as soon as the Dems take power, they will be unpopular again and the next MAGA will be next in line.
    There's some analysis out that contrary to common belief, the Harris campaign was actually quite effective. Where they went head-to-head with Trump in marginal states they were able to pull back. The problem was they weren't able to pull back enough with an electorate that was disinclined to give the Democrats time of day.
    Also virtually every incumbent in every liberal democracy was either being replaced or at least losing ground. The unpopularity of our governments cannot be solely down to them being crap, the economic conditions have a bigger influence than candidate quality and capability.
  • DoctorGDoctorG Posts: 331
    First Reform by election win in Scotland.

    Clearly they are at the very least a threat to Lab and Con in the working class central belt
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,641
    edited December 12

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Is there a Mike Pence in the current Administration? I think Team MAGA learned their lesson, unfortunately.

    Stuffing the administration with incompetent loyalists brings its own problems

    @atrupar.com‬

    MAGAZINER: How many veterans have you deported?

    NOEM: We haven't deported veterans

    MAGAZINER: We are now joined on Zoom by a combat veteran you deported to Korea

    https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3m7pyay4ndm2w

    @thetnholler.bsky.social‬

    🔥 @repdeliaramirez to @KristiNoem: “Bottom Line: You lie with impunity. You reject checks & balances. You ignore Congress & the courts… you can either resign, Trump will fire you, or you’ll be impeached.

    You’re going to be held accountable. I’m going to make sure of that.”

    https://bsky.app/profile/thetnholler.bsky.social/post/3m7rc2dcrmc2e
    This guy?

    This is why people hate congressional hearings and don’t trust the media.

    ICE didn’t deport a veteran. Sae Joon Park self-deported to South Korea.

    He never pursued citizenship during his decades here and his green card was revoked under Obama in 2009 due to drug possession.

    https://x.com/ljmoynihan/status/1999336182203797991

    BREAKING: Democrats CAUGHT in massive fake news operation in DHS Sec. Kristi Noem hearing - lying that President Trump deported a Veteran to South Korea

    Rep. Magaziner tried a "gotcha": "We are now joined on Zoom by a veteran YOU deported."

    HE SELF-DEPORTED.

    Sae Joon Park had a removal order over felony drug charges and bail jumping - and was NOT a citizen, but a green card holder.

    Democrats lie, lie, LIE.

    https://x.com/ericldaugh/status/1999200511820763484
    Usually the way self-deportation works is you are given a choice between self-deporting with the ability to reapply or being deported with a big red line through your record meaning you can never come back again.

    It sounds good on social media posts but reality is usually more complicated (this is not to say the democrats aren’t idiots for highlighting this case)
    Thing is, people are complaining that a decorated veteran gets deported. The Administration nonsensically asserts this man wasn't actually deported.

    The question is whether he should be deported. The Administration aren't justifying their action but are pretending they didn't do it.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,847
    IanB2 said:

    Of the thirteen local by-elections in Devon this year, the LibDems have won....all thirteen!

    Piss Diamonds on the march. Unlike some, I am quite bullish about the PDs at the next GE. They are the only overtly pro-EU/anti-MAGA faction available and that might prove of increasingly salience. Mind you, we've all had enough of that fat c-nt being the nation's funcle so they probably need a leadership change at some point.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 59,190
    FF43 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    By "completely wrong" I think you mean "doesn't agree with my priors".

    Mind you, we are all guilty of that.
    If trade within the EU is so awesome, how come their growth is not rocketing?

    It might help, but it’s not a panacea for the U.K.
  • Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    It's not at all clear that cutting the size of the public sector would increase GDP at all. Internationally, there seems to be little correlation between government spending as share of GDP and GDP per capita. The Nordic states, for example, have both large public sectors and high GDP per capita, while there are plenty of countries with little public spending and low GDP per capita. And then, of course, there is the question of the extent to which GDP per capita is actually a good reflection of quality of life.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 4,030
    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    I have been a subscriber since school and I am on the brink of cancelling my subscription to The Economist. The New "Insider" video interviews are pathetic- the interview with Bannon might as well have been done by Russell Harty it was so weak. The analysis of UK politics used to be a High Table discussion of principles, but is now the same kind of shallow tactical analysis that you can find anywhere- including here- and is increasingly an insult to the intelligence of the reader. Whereas overseas reporting was once detailed and informed, increasingly it is generic and phoned in by stringers. The Economist now follows the herd and lacks the intellectual grip and independence that once made it worth the subscription.

    For example: last week's UK op-ed managed to be a complete survey of UK politics that was useful only in that it was both trite and completely wrong and while dwelling on the Greens- 5 MPs- and Reform -5 MPs, managed to avoid discussing the Lib Dems -72 MPs- at all, without any kind of explanation. This was the second time in the past few weeks that the Zanny Minton Beddoes made this call, and now she wishes to offer a softly softly approach to fascism. I will be watching, but one more bullshit story will be the final straw.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,059

    Peston: The only silver lining is that the Bank of England will undoubtedly cut interest rates next week by 0.25%


    Andrew Sentance
    @asentance

    A cut in interest rates is not a “silver lining” when inflation is running persistently above target and unlikely to fall significantly next year.

    https://x.com/asentance/status/1999404212501762380


    It is essential to government policy to have both high (because debt) and low (because votes) inflation at the same time. My guess is they will resolve the dilemma by talking low and acting for high. The BoE seems to me to be abandoning its 2% remit, which is a highly political act.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,818
    "Rubio orders return to Times New Roman font over 'wasteful' Calibri"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkez3367xmo
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 48,372
    Fishing said:

    Just a word of warning for anyone wanting to travel to the World Cup next year: think twice before posting on this thread.

    Just for the record, I shitpost as much as many about Trump on here, but didn't have the slightest difficulty getting into the US last month.

    So though we can blame him for undermining the rule of law, murdering random people on the high seas, undermining the economy, trashing the constitution and destroying America's standing in the free world, we can absolve him of the ultimate crime against humanity of banning PBers from the US.

    He's not a monster after all.
    Ah but that's only because of your posts praising billionaire-friendly trickledown economics. That's what saved you.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,641

    FF43 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    By "completely wrong" I think you mean "doesn't agree with my priors".

    Mind you, we are all guilty of that.
    If trade within the EU is so awesome, how come their growth is not rocketing?

    It might help, but it’s not a panacea for the U.K.

    I should have answered @Fishing on their points. Fishing reckons a possible 3% improvement in GDP through efficiency savings. This compares with the consensus by economists that leaving the EU has had a 6% to 8% hit to GDP so far due to loss of trade, investment and productivity. They aren't either/or. You can reduce welfare and stay in your most important market.
  • Andy_JS said:

    "Rubio orders return to Times New Roman font over 'wasteful' Calibri"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkez3367xmo

    In keeping with the current administration's UEI (Uniformity, Inequity, and Exclusion) policy.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,818
    "TfL fares to rise by 5.8% - that's more than the rate of inflation"

    https://www.itv.com/news/london/2025-12-11/tfl-fares-to-rise-by-58-thats-more-than-the-rate-of-inflation
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 7,982
    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    I have been a subscriber since school and I am on the brink of cancelling my subscription to The Economist. The New "Insider" video interviews are pathetic- the interview with Bannon might as well have been done by Russell Harty it was so weak. The analysis of UK politics used to be a High Table discussion of principles, but is now the same kind of shallow tactical analysis that you can find anywhere- including here- and is increasingly an insult to the intelligence of the reader. Whereas overseas reporting was once detailed and informed, increasingly it is generic and phoned in by stringers. The Economist now follows the herd and lacks the intellectual grip and independence that once made it worth the subscription.

    For example: last week's UK op-ed managed to be a complete survey of UK politics that was useful only in that it was both trite and completely wrong and while dwelling on the Greens- 5 MPs- and Reform -5 MPs, managed to avoid discussing the Lib Dems -72 MPs- at all, without any kind of explanation. This was the second time in the past few weeks that the Zanny Minton Beddoes made this call, and now she wishes to offer a softly softly approach to fascism. I will be watching, but one more bullshit story will be the final straw.
    I see the LibDem conversion to belief in FPTP continues apace.



    Reform got more votes, Greens more than half as many.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 27,051
    Scott_xP said:

    I worked on Panto with him once
    Oh no you didn't!
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 16,059
    Andy_JS said:

    "Rubio orders return to Times New Roman font over 'wasteful' Calibri"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkez3367xmo

    A rare case of agreement between the USA government and right thinking people.

    A law imposing the death penalty for use of Comic Sans would be even better. Especially in primary schools.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,095
    Roger said:

    DavidL said:

    Good morning

    Maybe Starmer needs to accept his ratings are dire just as Trump has

    Depressing but all so predictable stat this morning providing more evidence that Reeves is completely out of her depth

    https://news.sky.com/story/economy-shrinks-by-0-1-in-october-official-figures-show-13482426

    The incompetence, leaking and complete chaos leading up to the budget had real world effects. Quelle surprise. And since the budget bond rates continue to creep up making our additional borrowing ever more expensive.
    I would be interested to know who was responsble for the pre budget chaos. I don't believe it would have been Reeves. A Chancellor has enough on their plate without half baked publicity stunts. It had the devastating effect of making her look unprofessional.
    Well there is a leak inquiry but anyone who watched Yes Minister knows how useful they are.

    I think she needed to persuade her colleagues that she needed to increase taxes by a substantial amount again, contrary to what she said in her previous budget. I think she told them that if they did not do this there would have to be serious cuts to ensure her fiscal rules were complied with and I suspect some of the mood music prior to the budget was intended to create that atmosphere. That would fit with her slightly bizarre speech before the budget and the persistence of the stories that there was an immediate short term overspend which did not in fact exist. It is a different question as to whether or not any particular "leak" was authorised or not. And it more than somewhat backfired. How much of this Starmer even understood heaven only knows.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 56,860
    Just missed out on making the 100. (Assumed he was dead decades ago - he was a feature of telly when I was a kid.)
  • carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    I have been a subscriber since school and I am on the brink of cancelling my subscription to The Economist. The New "Insider" video interviews are pathetic- the interview with Bannon might as well have been done by Russell Harty it was so weak. The analysis of UK politics used to be a High Table discussion of principles, but is now the same kind of shallow tactical analysis that you can find anywhere- including here- and is increasingly an insult to the intelligence of the reader. Whereas overseas reporting was once detailed and informed, increasingly it is generic and phoned in by stringers. The Economist now follows the herd and lacks the intellectual grip and independence that once made it worth the subscription.

    For example: last week's UK op-ed managed to be a complete survey of UK politics that was useful only in that it was both trite and completely wrong and while dwelling on the Greens- 5 MPs- and Reform -5 MPs, managed to avoid discussing the Lib Dems -72 MPs- at all, without any kind of explanation. This was the second time in the past few weeks that the Zanny Minton Beddoes made this call, and now she wishes to offer a softly softly approach to fascism. I will be watching, but one more bullshit story will be the final straw.
    I see the LibDem conversion to belief in FPTP continues apace.



    Reform got more votes, Greens more than half as many.
    I think most Lib Dems are still very much in favour of replacing FPTP with a more proportional system, even though they have managed to achieve some success under the current system. I imagine the biggest change of opinion has been among Reform supporters, the majority of whom probably voted against the alternative vote system in 2011.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 17,497

    FF43 said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    By "completely wrong" I think you mean "doesn't agree with my priors".

    Mind you, we are all guilty of that.
    If trade within the EU is so awesome, how come their growth is not rocketing?

    It might help, but it’s not a panacea for the U.K.
    Prior to the Brexit vote the UK consistently grew faster than the EU27. Since the Brexit vote the UK has consistently grown more slowly than the EU27. We made extremely good use of the EU single market when we were members, and we are struggling outside of the single market. Anyone with an ounce of economic literacy knows this to be the case.
    Right now I would take "might help". When it comes to economic growth there are no panaceas.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 57,095
    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Rubio orders return to Times New Roman font over 'wasteful' Calibri"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkez3367xmo

    A rare case of agreement between the USA government and right thinking people.

    A law imposing the death penalty for use of Comic Sans would be even better. Especially in primary schools.
    As the Romans allegedly once said Straight is great, curvy is pervy. All right thinking people use TNR for all official documents. It is clear, it is clean, it is less smudgy and it is right.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,302

    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    I have been a subscriber since school and I am on the brink of cancelling my subscription to The Economist. The New "Insider" video interviews are pathetic- the interview with Bannon might as well have been done by Russell Harty it was so weak. The analysis of UK politics used to be a High Table discussion of principles, but is now the same kind of shallow tactical analysis that you can find anywhere- including here- and is increasingly an insult to the intelligence of the reader. Whereas overseas reporting was once detailed and informed, increasingly it is generic and phoned in by stringers. The Economist now follows the herd and lacks the intellectual grip and independence that once made it worth the subscription.

    For example: last week's UK op-ed managed to be a complete survey of UK politics that was useful only in that it was both trite and completely wrong and while dwelling on the Greens- 5 MPs- and Reform -5 MPs, managed to avoid discussing the Lib Dems -72 MPs- at all, without any kind of explanation. This was the second time in the past few weeks that the Zanny Minton Beddoes made this call, and now she wishes to offer a softly softly approach to fascism. I will be watching, but one more bullshit story will be the final straw.
    I see the LibDem conversion to belief in FPTP continues apace.



    Reform got more votes, Greens more than half as many.
    I think most Lib Dems are still very much in favour of replacing FPTP with a more proportional system, even though they have managed to achieve some success under the current system. I imagine the biggest change of opinion has been among Reform supporters, the majority of whom probably voted against the alternative vote system in 2011.
    Some might observe that FPTP stopping a flood of Reform/Green MPs is more of a feature than a bug ;)
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 17,510
    carnforth said:

    Cicero said:

    Fishing said:

    IanB2 said:

    Worth a read, the Economist leader, for those of you able to access Economist articles (limited monthly access or £):

    https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/12/11/can-anyone-stop-europes-populist-right

    The doctrines of the populist right do indeed contain much to condemn. Yet talking about them in apocalyptic terms is doomed to fail. For their own sake, and for the good of their countries, mainstream politicians and their supporters urgently need a different approach.

    If demonisation is failing, what is the alternative? The answer starts with that impatience for change which the populist right harnesses so successfully—and which this newspaper shares.

    For Britain, France and Germany, European economic integration is the most obvious source of growth. Yet the populists are set on a collision course with the European Union, which would lead to growth-destroying degradation of the single market. On other issues, populists latch onto discontent, but propose solutions that are foolish.

    If mainstream politicians spend it shrilly demonising populists, they will doubtless make themselves feel better, but they will not help their countries. They would be wiser to subject governments-in-waiting to the democratic scrutiny they deserve.

    The Economist is completely wrong - European economic integration might do a tiny bit to boost economic growth, but it be lost in the noise, especially for this country. It would inevitably focus on manufactured goods, which are not where we have a comparative advantage, because liberalising services is much more difficult, both practically and politically, and services are less likely to be traded. Trade with the EU is a relatively small part of our economy - exports to the EU are only about 13% of GDP. And liberalising trade with the EU comes with all sorts of constraints on sovereignty, which are exactly what made Brexit more than a fringe movement in the first place, and was perhaps the second biggest factor, after immigration, in the rise of UKIP/Reform.

    The most obvious way to boost growth is to focus on competitiveness throughout the economy - deregulating product and labour markets, getting malingerers off welfare and reducing the size of the public sector. Just cutting size of the state by 3% of GDP, reversing the planned increases since Labour took power, should increase GDP by 2-3% over the long run, more if it's done in a pro-growth way, and much more than any realistic boost from closer ties with the EU, whatever the more absurd studies say.
    I have been a subscriber since school and I am on the brink of cancelling my subscription to The Economist. The New "Insider" video interviews are pathetic- the interview with Bannon might as well have been done by Russell Harty it was so weak. The analysis of UK politics used to be a High Table discussion of principles, but is now the same kind of shallow tactical analysis that you can find anywhere- including here- and is increasingly an insult to the intelligence of the reader. Whereas overseas reporting was once detailed and informed, increasingly it is generic and phoned in by stringers. The Economist now follows the herd and lacks the intellectual grip and independence that once made it worth the subscription.

    For example: last week's UK op-ed managed to be a complete survey of UK politics that was useful only in that it was both trite and completely wrong and while dwelling on the Greens- 5 MPs- and Reform -5 MPs, managed to avoid discussing the Lib Dems -72 MPs- at all, without any kind of explanation. This was the second time in the past few weeks that the Zanny Minton Beddoes made this call, and now she wishes to offer a softly softly approach to fascism. I will be watching, but one more bullshit story will be the final straw.
    I see the LibDem conversion to belief in FPTP continues apace.



    Reform got more votes, Greens more than half as many.
    You can support the rules being changed, but you still have to play by the current rules. The next general election is probably going to be fought on FPTP, and the last one definitely was! Current predictions all point to a big LibDem block of MPs after the next election, and many predictions are for a hung Parliament. So, whether FPTP is sensible or not (it’s not), a good analysis of UK politics and what happens next should remember the LibDems exist!
Sign In or Register to comment.