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Leaked poll has the Tories reduced to 14 (fourteen) seats at the next election– politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,311
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    ROFLMAO
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,373
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    Davey appears obsessed with establishing himself as the most anti-Trump and anti-Farage politician, but what would he actually want to *do* with political power?
    He’s scared of getting power, because he’d actually have to make decisions. Much better to be in permanent opposition, yelling at the moon on Twitter all day while still collecting a decent salary.
    No, I don't think so.

    Davey was one of the best performing ministers in the Coalition government*, and was very successful atimplementing pension reform and the shift to renewable energy.

    * I said in 2015 that the Coalition will be looked back on as a golden period of good government. That is increasingly obviously coming true.
    Performed so well that he had to apologise? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/ce786npwdgkt

    Lol. Another stand up comedy candidate...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,272
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very interesting alternative history and one which I think would emphasis how well Rishi played his hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory
    MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing
    Boris would be a gift to
    Farage
    Bozo would have been out in
    2023 when the partygate
    scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall
    petition.

    His flaws were also going to
    come back and bite
    him, it was just a matter of
    time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022
    would be a very
    interesting alternative history
    and one which I
    think would emphasis how well
    Rishi played his
    hand to retain 120 seats last
    July.
    Nope had Boris stayed PM he
    would not have resigned his
    seat and of course the Tories
    won the Uxbridge by election
    anyway so Truss would never
    have become Tory leader and
    PM

    Johnson was done entirely by his own unacceptable behaviour, and no matter how blind you are, he had no way back
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,487
    What a test match! Almost like soccer
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,630
    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very interesting alternative history and one which I think would emphasis how well Rishi played his hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory
    MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing
    Boris would be a gift to
    Farage
    Bozo would have been out in
    2023 when the partygate
    scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall
    petition.

    His flaws were also going to
    come back and bite
    him, it was just a matter of
    time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022
    would be a very
    interesting alternative history
    and one which I
    think would emphasis how well
    Rishi played his
    hand to retain 120 seats last
    July.
    Nope had Boris stayed PM he
    would not have resigned his
    seat and of course the Tories
    won the Uxbridge by election
    anyway so Truss would never
    have become Tory leader and
    PM

    Ooh, a haiku contest for Saturday morning!
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,816
    ...

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    isam said:

    Some front for Nathan Gill to have tweeted this knowing what he was doing. Lefties do seem to be implying all of his party members are equally crooked though

    Ex-MP Jared O'Mara charged with seven counts of fraud, you have to delve deep to find out what party he belonged to. Could you imagine if he had been UKIP, it would have been front page news implying all party members are equally crooked. Oh BBC 🙄

    https://x.com/nathangillmep/status/1428415345581305864?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    They’re desperate for some shit to stick to Farage. It’s politics. All part of the game.
    Theres loads of Pro-Putin remarks by Farage on the record.

    Gill and Farage are birds of a feather.
    Are you seriously claiming Farage is on the same level as the convicted Nathan Gill ?
    I can't remember who it was, probably not Farage, but someone from UKIP/ Brexit was making remarkably similar pro- Russian, anti- Ukraine speeches contemporaneously to those made by Gill in the European Parliament. Uncanny!

    If only I could remember who that was.
    As long as they did it without taking money, or making sure they lost the receipts, they will be fine, I'm sure. Certainly from a criminal point of view.

    "Saying similar things to Gill without even being paid for it" probably shouldn't be a political defence, but that depends on how teflon any such figure is, if they even exist.
    Nathan Gill appeared to be incredibly thick too. Someone more sophisticated, if they existed, would more likely than not have covered their tracks.

    In terms of the war chest Russia has available to indulge in covert activity, Nathan Gill massively undersold himself.
    This morning I learned that Nathan Gill is a bishop in the Church of the Latter-day Saints.

    The bishop got bashed by the judge yesterday.
    So both a Mormon and a moron.

    (You have to be pretty dumb to get caught taking bribes.)
    And the scale of the bribes was pathetic. A ten year stretch for the bribe value of a used Fiesta.

    He probably got substantially less in cash in lieu terms than say someone going on a swinging weekend holiday to a villa in Northern Italy.
    Yes, but thats very British of him. Sturgeon destroyed her career for a motorhome.
    It was a six figure value motorhome mind.
    Tbf Angela's motorhome looks a bit more budget. Of course it was the static home that did for her.




    If only she had said the house belonged to her partner.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,816
    Roger said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    isam said:

    Some front for Nathan Gill to have tweeted this knowing what he was doing. Lefties do seem to be implying all of his party members are equally crooked though

    Ex-MP Jared O'Mara charged with seven counts of fraud, you have to delve deep to find out what party he belonged to. Could you imagine if he had been UKIP, it would have been front page news implying all party members are equally crooked. Oh BBC 🙄

    https://x.com/nathangillmep/status/1428415345581305864?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    They’re desperate for some shit to stick to Farage. It’s politics. All part of the game.
    Theres loads of Pro-Putin remarks by Farage on the record.

    Gill and Farage are birds of a feather.
    Are you seriously claiming Farage is on the same level as the convicted Nathan Gill ?
    I can't remember who it was, probably not Farage, but someone from UKIP/ Brexit was making remarkably similar pro- Russian, anti- Ukraine speeches contemporaneously to those made by Gill in the European Parliament. Uncanny!

    If only I could remember who that was.
    As long as they did it without taking money, or making sure they lost the receipts, they will be fine, I'm sure. Certainly from a criminal point of view.

    "Saying similar things to Gill without even being paid for it" probably shouldn't be a political defence, but that depends on how teflon any such figure is, if they even exist.
    Nathan Gill appeared to be incredibly thick too. Someone more sophisticated, if they existed, would more likely than not have covered their tracks.

    In terms of the war chest Russia has available to indulge in covert activity, Nathan Gill massively undersold himself.
    This morning I learned that Nathan Gill is a bishop in the Church of the Latter-day Saints.

    The bishop got bashed by the judge yesterday.
    So both a Mormon and a moron.

    (You have to be pretty dumb to get caught taking bribes.)
    And the scale of the bribes was pathetic. A ten year stretch for the bribe value of a used Fiesta.

    He probably got substantially less in cash in lieu terms than say someone going on a swinging weekend holiday to a villa in Northern Italy.
    Yes, but thats very British of him. Sturgeon destroyed her career for a motorhome.
    It was a six figure value motorhome mind.
    ....and according to her very readable autobiography she didn't do it
    Mandy Rice-Davies?
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 378
    It is possible that defence will move up the political agenda if the US withdraws from Europe. Defence is a weak topic for most of the parties. Labour are welfare- and culture-war- obsessed and many of their MPs don't want to spend money on defence. Reform are sympathetic to Trump, who is sympathetic to Putin. The Greens do not seem to really believe in defence, and the Liberal Democrats do not have a strong track record on defence.

    That leaves the Conservatives as the only party left that has historically taken defence seriously. This could push them up the poll rankings if the Ukraine war situation becomes critical.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,630

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very interesting alternative history and one which I think would emphasis how well Rishi played his hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory
    MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing
    Boris would be a gift to
    Farage
    Bozo would have been out in
    2023 when the partygate
    scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall
    petition.

    His flaws were also going to
    come back and bite
    him, it was just a matter of
    time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022
    would be a very
    interesting alternative history
    and one which I
    think would emphasis how well
    Rishi played his
    hand to retain 120 seats last
    July.
    Nope had Boris stayed PM he
    would not have resigned his
    seat and of course the Tories
    won the Uxbridge by election
    anyway so Truss would never
    have become Tory leader and
    PM

    Johnson was done entirely by his own unacceptable behaviour, and no matter how blind you are, he had no way back
    TBF to HYUFD, Mr J has performed more resurrections on the corpse of his career than the old grave-robbers did for the Edinburgh anatomists.
  • TresTres Posts: 3,224
    Taz said:

    isam said:

    Some front for Nathan Gill to have tweeted this knowing what he was doing. Lefties do seem to be implying all of his party members are equally crooked though

    Ex-MP Jared O'Mara charged with seven counts of fraud, you have to delve deep to find out what party he belonged to. Could you imagine if he had been UKIP, it would have been front page news implying all party members are equally crooked. Oh BBC 🙄

    https://x.com/nathangillmep/status/1428415345581305864?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    They’re desperate for some shit to stick to Farage. It’s politics. All part of the game.
    accepting bribes from the enemy all part of the game in reform adjacent land.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 124,898
    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,311
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    And similarly in SW London. The hidden irony behind the LibDems' success in the 'poshest' areas of the UK is that the bedrock of their support in those areas is among the less well off of the residents there. The real story is that the Tories have lost the support of working age voters, and retreated to being a pensioner party, those pensioners tending not to live in towns and cities.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,816
    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very interesting alternative history and one which I think would emphasis how well Rishi played his hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory
    MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing
    Boris would be a gift to
    Farage
    Bozo would have been out in
    2023 when the partygate
    scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall
    petition.

    His flaws were also going to
    come back and bite
    him, it was just a matter of
    time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022
    would be a very
    interesting alternative history
    and one which I
    think would emphasis how well
    Rishi played his
    hand to retain 120 seats last
    July.
    Nope had Boris stayed PM he
    would not have resigned his
    seat and of course the Tories
    won the Uxbridge by election
    anyway so Truss would never
    have become Tory leader and
    PM

    Johnson was done entirely by his own unacceptable behaviour, and no matter how blind you are, he had no way back
    TBF to HYUFD, Mr J has performed more resurrections on the corpse of his career than the old grave-robbers did for the Edinburgh anatomists.
    Are you saying Johnson is the berk from Burke and Hare?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,272

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh no not another trip to Washington for European leaders .

    Enough with this nauseating begging .

    The alternative is Ukrainian defeat. If the last voice Trump heard was a Russian one, he's anti-Ukraine, so a trip to the Oval Office Gin Palace it is.
    This seems different and Trump seems determined that it’s this plan or the US walks .
    The Europeans including Starmer should have been well aware this was a likely outcome, certainly since the "suit" incident in the Oval Office.

    Were the Saudi Royal Family all wearing suits in the Oval Office?
    Starmer has apparently said he does not intend joining the European delegation going to the White House

    Of course it's budget week, but also he won't stand up to Trump and despite saying he would, he hasn't spoken to Trump about the BBC
  • isamisam Posts: 43,059
    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,557

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh no not another trip to Washington for European leaders .

    Enough with this nauseating begging .

    The alternative is Ukrainian defeat. If the last voice Trump heard was a Russian one, he's anti-Ukraine, so a trip to the Oval Office Gin Palace it is.
    This seems different and Trump seems determined that it’s this plan or the US walks .
    The Europeans including Starmer should have been well aware this was a likely outcome, certainly since the "suit" incident in the Oval Office.

    Were the Saudi Royal Family all wearing suits in the Oval Office?
    Starmer has apparently said he does not intend joining the European delegation going to the White House

    Of course it's budget week, but also he won't stand up to Trump and despite saying he would, he hasn't spoken to Trump about the BBC
    Lauren Boebart has been more willing to stand up to Trump than Starmer.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,816
    Taz said:
    What? It gives the Ukrainians too much.

    He needs to row back on the rhetoric after Nathan Gill (whom I don't believe he knew).
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,311
    edited 10:07AM
    fox327 said:



    That leaves the Conservatives as the only party left that has historically taken defence seriously.

    Is your "historically" a prompt to overlook their latest long spell in office?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,557

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 35,816
    edited 10:10AM

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh no not another trip to Washington for European leaders .

    Enough with this nauseating begging .

    The alternative is Ukrainian defeat. If the last voice Trump heard was a Russian one, he's anti-Ukraine, so a trip to the Oval Office Gin Palace it is.
    This seems different and Trump seems determined that it’s this plan or the US walks .
    The Europeans including Starmer should have been well aware this was a likely outcome, certainly since the "suit" incident in the Oval Office.

    Were the Saudi Royal Family all wearing suits in the Oval Office?
    Starmer has apparently said he does not intend joining the European delegation going to the White House

    Of course it's budget week, but also he won't stand up to Trump and despite saying he would, he hasn't spoken to Trump about the BBC
    Yesterday you were saying he was out of the country too much.

    I don't believe Starmer's Trump adjacency is much of a weapon for either Farage or the current iteration of the Tories.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,186
    Taz said:
    Interesting position whether you like him or not.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654
    IanB2 said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    I think this poll overestimates the Tory losses. Another poll from MiC yesterday suggested the Tories could get tactical votes to beat Labour or Reform for instance in Conservative v Labour or Conservative v Reform seats.

    Yet while Kemi has got the Tories back closer to 20% with a few gains from Reform in the polls since the party conference, the party is still polling below even the 24% Rishi got at the general election. If the Conservatives see losses at the devolved and local elections in May then Kemi could face a no confidence vote from Tory MPs she loses. Tory MPs would then have a choice of electing Cleverly to try and maximise tactical votes from Labour and the LDs against Reform in Tory held seats or giving Jenrick enough nominations to go to a membership vote he might now win on a platform of trying to out Farage Farage on leaving the ECHR and scrapping net zero even more than Kemi has

    I don't often agree with you but on this occasion you are correct. There's plenty of evidence even in local by-elections of pockets of continuing Conservative strength and, as you say, there will be some constituencies where voting Conservative may be seen as the lesser evil. The key remains whether the party can somehow remain the credible alternative Government - IF they fall to third or even fourth in the next Commons, that is gone and they will be one of the lesser parties.

    The second point is we are, whether we like it or not, likely three and a half years off an election which is an eternity in politics. So much water has to flow under so many bridges and I'll cheerfully admit, after a shaky start, Badenoch is improving though she still has to establish whether the Conservative Party she leads is Reform-lite or a genuine centre-right alternative. That will come with time but next May will be crucial less, I suspect, of seats lost rather than seats or councils not gained from Labour and others.
    The rank order of the vote shares and the distribution of those votes both matter more than the absolute percentage. That's what HY is missing - the reason the Tories face catastrophic losses is that in 2024, despte the challenge from Reform, they held on to their clear second place. They lost out to the LibDems because - in an unusual reversal of the historic pattern, due to both the fallout from Brexit and tactical voting, the LibDems' vote share was more geographically concentrated than the Tories'.

    In current polls the Tories are in the pack, with Reform out front, Labour very close, and both LibDems and Greens, varying by poll, snapping close behind. If the Tories can pull into a clear second place, they would be positioned to save more seats (and make some gains from Labour), but they would still be hampered by the geographical correlation between Tory and Reform vote share and Reform's current clear water lead. If they fall into third or fourth place, the modelled wipeout is quite likely.
    If the Tories overtook Labour for second akmost all the Reform seat gains at the next general election would be from Labour
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,721

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very interesting alternative history and one which I think would emphasis how well Rishi played his hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite
    him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very
    interesting alternative history and one which I
    think would emphasis how well Rishi played his
    hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    Nope had Boris stayed PM he would not have resigned his seat and of course the Tories won the Uxbridge by election anyway so Truss would never have become Tory leader and PN

    There would have been a recall petition anyway.
    And the chances are that there would have been another scandal, because Boris has no impulse control.

    It was always a question of "when" not "if" something calamitous bright him down.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,835
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 68,272

    nico67 said:

    nico67 said:

    Oh no not another trip to Washington for European leaders .

    Enough with this nauseating begging .

    The alternative is Ukrainian defeat. If the last voice Trump heard was a Russian one, he's anti-Ukraine, so a trip to the Oval Office Gin Palace it is.
    This seems different and Trump seems determined that it’s this plan or the US walks .
    The Europeans including Starmer should have been well aware this was a likely outcome, certainly since the "suit" incident in the Oval Office.

    Were the Saudi Royal Family all wearing suits in the Oval Office?
    Starmer has apparently said he does not intend joining the European delegation going to the White House

    Of course it's budget week, but also he won't stand up to Trump and despite saying he would, he hasn't spoken to Trump about the BBC
    Yesterday you were saying he was out of the country too much.
    Where do I say he should go to the White House
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,105
    isam said:

    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    You know, people rave about fast bowling being the key in Australia, but when England have won in the past it's usually (not always) been a combination of excellent batting coupled with the intelligent use of spin bowling.

    2011 Swann's offbreaks and Cook/Trott piling up runs
    1986 Phil Edmonds and Chris Broad
    1979 Miller and Gower.

    And this side have no spinners they can rely on and a batting line up that's more fragile than Donald Trump.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,105
    ydoethur said:

    If it wasn’t for Gus Atkinson England would have nothing to bowl at here.

    As it is, with the pitch easing out it will only take one decent innings from an Aussie batsman and they are home and hosed.

    It’s pretty pathetic to be honest.

    Do you know what's really annoying?

    I was right about this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,036

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    As indeed was Biden and Dubya.

    I think Bush Sr was the last POTUS who did actual active military service.

    Callaghan is the last military veteran to be UK PM.

  • TresTres Posts: 3,224
    Sandpit said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    Davey appears obsessed with establishing himself as the most anti-Trump and anti-Farage politician, but what would he actually want to *do* with political power?
    He’s scared of getting power, because he’d actually have to make decisions. Much better to be in permanent opposition, yelling at the moon on Twitter all day while still collecting a decent salary.
    i saw dubai totally shit the bed trying to stage a triathlon the other day
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,311
    Worth a read:

    https://macspaunday.substack.com/p/he-got-this-from-k

    [Witkoff] accidentally tweeted under Ravid’s story what looked to be an intended direct message to a third party: “He must have got this from K.”

    I saw the tweet and screenshot it before Witkoff, realizing his technical whoops, deleted it. “K,” I assumed, referred to Kirill, the only on-the-record source for Ravid’s story — an unintended disclosure by Witkoff, another frequent source for Ravid’s stories, that the Russian was preemptively selling something he didn’t yet own, having worked out how American media is a helpmeet to politics.

    NBC News and the Wall Street Journal both noted that while Witkoff may have been driving the car, he had co-passengers. The plan, now described as a “blueprint” for ending the war, “was worked out” by Rubio, Witkoff and Jared Kushner. What struck me as odd about this whole affair was that for such a multi-authored, monthlong project, no one from the American side was willing to go on the record to talk about it.

    Moscow’s stony posture suggests it knew Dmitriev had cooked up something too good to be true or taken seriously, both of which are true.


    With some detailed commentary on the detail of the 'proposals'


  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,400

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    isam said:

    Some front for Nathan Gill to have tweeted this knowing what he was doing. Lefties do seem to be implying all of his party members are equally crooked though

    Ex-MP Jared O'Mara charged with seven counts of fraud, you have to delve deep to find out what party he belonged to. Could you imagine if he had been UKIP, it would have been front page news implying all party members are equally crooked. Oh BBC 🙄

    https://x.com/nathangillmep/status/1428415345581305864?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    They’re desperate for some shit to stick to Farage. It’s politics. All part of the game.
    Theres loads of Pro-Putin remarks by Farage on the record.

    Gill and Farage are birds of a feather.
    Are you seriously claiming Farage is on the same level as the convicted Nathan Gill ?
    I can't remember who it was, probably not Farage, but someone from UKIP/ Brexit was making remarkably similar pro- Russian, anti- Ukraine speeches contemporaneously to those made by Gill in the European Parliament. Uncanny!

    If only I could remember who that was.
    As long as they did it without taking money, or making sure they lost the receipts, they will be fine, I'm sure. Certainly from a criminal point of view.

    "Saying similar things to Gill without even being paid for it" probably shouldn't be a political defence, but that depends on how teflon any such figure is, if they even exist.
    Nathan Gill appeared to be incredibly thick too. Someone more sophisticated, if they existed, would more likely than not have covered their tracks.

    In terms of the war chest Russia has available to indulge in covert activity, Nathan Gill massively undersold himself.
    This morning I learned that Nathan Gill is a bishop in the Church of the Latter-day Saints.

    The bishop got bashed by the judge yesterday.
    So both a Mormon and a moron.

    (You have to be pretty dumb to get caught taking bribes.)
    And the scale of the bribes was pathetic. A ten year stretch for the bribe value of a used Fiesta.

    He probably got substantially less in cash in lieu terms than say someone going on a swinging weekend holiday to a villa in Northern Italy.
    Yes, but thats very British of him. Sturgeon destroyed her career for a motorhome.
    It was a six figure value motorhome mind.
    Tbf Angela's motorhome looks a bit more budget. Of course it was the static home that did for her.




    Looks as if it could have been procured secondhand from the Peter Murrell dealership?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,036
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Apart from pensioners, that looks a very Reform-curious demographic. It wouldn't surprise me if the Tories come third there.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,630

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.
    Also a postwar cathedral - architecturally a decent stab at the job too IIRC.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 18,455

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    I think the poster suggests Clinton and Trump didn't just have draft dodging in common. Scurrilous interpretations of the Epstein correspondence, no doubt.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,417
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    If it wasn’t for Gus Atkinson England would have nothing to bowl at here.

    As it is, with the pitch easing out it will only take one decent innings from an Aussie batsman and they are home and hosed.

    It’s pretty pathetic to be honest.

    Do you know what's really annoying?

    I was right about this.
    I woke up, opened up cricinfo on the phone with a mildly queasy feeling in the stomach about what I’d find there, and yep. There it was. The inevitable.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,630
    edited 10:25AM

    Carnyx said:

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very interesting alternative history and one which I think would emphasis how well Rishi played his hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory
    MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing
    Boris would be a gift to
    Farage
    Bozo would have been out in
    2023 when the partygate
    scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall
    petition.

    His flaws were also going to
    come back and bite
    him, it was just a matter of
    time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022
    would be a very
    interesting alternative history
    and one which I
    think would emphasis how well
    Rishi played his
    hand to retain 120 seats last
    July.
    Nope had Boris stayed PM he
    would not have resigned his
    seat and of course the Tories
    won the Uxbridge by election
    anyway so Truss would never
    have become Tory leader and
    PM

    Johnson was done entirely by his own unacceptable behaviour, and no matter how blind you are, he had no way back
    TBF to HYUFD, Mr J has performed more resurrections on the corpse of his career than the old grave-robbers did for the Edinburgh anatomists.
    Are you saying Johnson is the berk from Burke and Hare?
    No, B&H were not resurrectionists. They caught their wares fresh. (A very common misconception. Though a forebear of mine lived in the same very proletarian house as Burke at one time, fortunately not at the same time. Edit: as you can see here on PB.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 54,036
    Roger said:
    And innacurate. From donkey field to caring for his mother and brother, Starmer seems to have had a caring upbringing.

    Its only his political career as PM that is a failure.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,841

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 20,721

    Roger said:



    Foss said:
    What a personally unpleasant thing to write.
    Truth hurts
    Which bit?

    Tweet one says Starmer had a horrible childhood (true) and that's why he's fallen for all this rule-of-law nonsense (untrue and nasty).

    Tweet two says Starmer wants to reintroduce effective government (which rather implies that we didn't have it before) and the only way to do that is to reduce human rights legislation (which seems pretty contestable to me).

    Tells us more about Glasman than Starmer, I reckon.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,186
    The Archbishop of York speaks of Israel committing 'genocidal acts' and repeats the usual canard of targeting 'schools and hospitals' i.e the sorts of places where Hamas base themselves. I hadn't realised the Church had welcomed back a Bishop accused of complicity in the Rwandan genocide.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/31/church-welcomes-back-rwandan-bishop-accused-of-defending-genocide

    Feels like the Anglican church is leaning in to third-worldism. Their choice but I'm not sure why we want to keep them 'official' if that's the case.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,557
    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    You know, people rave about fast bowling being the key in Australia, but when England have won in the past it's usually (not always) been a combination of excellent batting coupled with the intelligent use of spin bowling.

    2011 Swann's offbreaks and Cook/Trott piling up runs
    1986 Phil Edmonds and Chris Broad
    1979 Miller and Gower.

    And this side have no spinners they can rely on and a batting line up that's more fragile than Donald Trump.
    The key is to have good opening batters and good opening bowlers.

    If you don't then you require an inspirational all rounder.
  • hamiltonacehamiltonace Posts: 714
    edited 10:29AM

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

    There are two pieces of evidence that counter this poll. The first is the recent moreincommon poll that showed the Tories are much less hated than either Labour or Reform. They are slowly losing their toxic brand. This will not win them new voters but will stop them losing voters. The second is the data from byelections. The Tories won 2 council seats yesterday both in the North and in strong Tory areas.

    Data shows that voters switch between the right parties and the left parties but rarely between left and right. There has been a switch of about 10% of the electorate from left to right. There is no evidence they are going back. In the same way that the left may tactically vote the right can also tactically vote to get rid of Labour/ SNP / PC or potentially the Lib Dems.

    Most of the recent MRP polls have the SNP taking back West Dumfries and Galloway from the Tories next May. The Stranraer by election this week must put this assumption in doubt.

    In summary while many of the Tories in the South East are in trouble in areas such as Trafford they may well be on the way to taking seats back from Labour.


















  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 9,196
    Absolutely astonishing innings by Travis Head, on a pitch that everybody else seemed to struggle on. A great watch.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,105

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    Taz said:

    isam said:

    Some front for Nathan Gill to have tweeted this knowing what he was doing. Lefties do seem to be implying all of his party members are equally crooked though

    Ex-MP Jared O'Mara charged with seven counts of fraud, you have to delve deep to find out what party he belonged to. Could you imagine if he had been UKIP, it would have been front page news implying all party members are equally crooked. Oh BBC 🙄

    https://x.com/nathangillmep/status/1428415345581305864?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    They’re desperate for some shit to stick to Farage. It’s politics. All part of the game.
    Theres loads of Pro-Putin remarks by Farage on the record.

    Gill and Farage are birds of a feather.
    Are you seriously claiming Farage is on the same level as the convicted Nathan Gill ?
    I can't remember who it was, probably not Farage, but someone from UKIP/ Brexit was making remarkably similar pro- Russian, anti- Ukraine speeches contemporaneously to those made by Gill in the European Parliament. Uncanny!

    If only I could remember who that was.
    As long as they did it without taking money, or making sure they lost the receipts, they will be fine, I'm sure. Certainly from a criminal point of view.

    "Saying similar things to Gill without even being paid for it" probably shouldn't be a political defence, but that depends on how teflon any such figure is, if they even exist.
    Nathan Gill appeared to be incredibly thick too. Someone more sophisticated, if they existed, would more likely than not have covered their tracks.

    In terms of the war chest Russia has available to indulge in covert activity, Nathan Gill massively undersold himself.
    This morning I learned that Nathan Gill is a bishop in the Church of the Latter-day Saints.

    The bishop got bashed by the judge yesterday.
    So both a Mormon and a moron.

    (You have to be pretty dumb to get caught taking bribes.)
    And the scale of the bribes was pathetic. A ten year stretch for the bribe value of a used Fiesta.

    He probably got substantially less in cash in lieu terms than say someone going on a swinging weekend holiday to a villa in Northern Italy.
    Yes, but thats very British of him. Sturgeon destroyed her career for a motorhome.
    It was a six figure value motorhome mind.
    Tbf Angela's motorhome looks a bit more budget. Of course it was the static home that did for her.




    Looks as if it could have been procured secondhand from the Peter Murrell dealership?
    Angela Rayner is not that Reform twat. She was never for sale.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,919
    Well, as I am sure you will all remember, not least because I wrote about it in some of my headers, there was in fact a report on Russian influence in British politics in ... goodness me .... July 2020.

    You can read the report here - https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf.

    @Malmesbury will be along soon to tell you how all the lessons and recommendations in that report have been learnt and implemented.

    The same Committee also wrote about the influence of other countries such as China - which is just as relevant these days.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,654
    edited 10:34AM
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    ROFLMAO
    All the 'it would be fine if Boris had not been removed' beliefs seem to be founded on the idea that it was some inexplicable event which had no build up or reasoning to it.

    Now, the manner in which he was replaced, with Truss then Sunak in short order, and how they then acted, means I can believe they might not have lost as badly in 2024 had he not been replaced, but the way it is presented it is as though 2019 Boris would have been the one up for re-election, not the Boris who did such a bad job that his own MPs forced him out. Mistake or not they didn't do that willy nilly. And if they had not done it, why on earth would Boris suddenly have gotten a grip when it was his personal failings as a leader which kept causing them problems?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654

    The Archbishop of York speaks of Israel committing 'genocidal acts' and repeats the usual canard of targeting 'schools and hospitals' i.e the sorts of places where Hamas base themselves. I hadn't realised the Church had welcomed back a Bishop accused of complicity in the Rwandan genocide.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/31/church-welcomes-back-rwandan-bishop-accused-of-defending-genocide

    Feels like the Anglican church is leaning in to third-worldism. Their choice but I'm not sure why we want to keep them 'official' if that's the case.

    That Bishop was granted leave to remain by a UK immigration tribunal and was only a priest not a bishop in England.

    That article is also nearly 10 years old. It also has sod all to do with having an automatic right to be married or buried or your child baptised in your local C of E Parish church which would of course be removed if the C of E was disestablished which would be the only real impact most people would notice from it no longer being established.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,507

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    You know, people rave about fast bowling being the key in Australia, but when England have won in the past it's usually (not always) been a combination of excellent batting coupled with the intelligent use of spin bowling.

    2011 Swann's offbreaks and Cook/Trott piling up runs
    1986 Phil Edmonds and Chris Broad
    1979 Miller and Gower.

    And this side have no spinners they can rely on and a batting line up that's more fragile than Donald Trump.
    The key is to have good opening batters and good opening bowlers.

    If you don't then you require an inspirational all rounder.
    Lord Botham is 70 now, probably not as good as he used to be.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,105
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    You know, people rave about fast bowling being the key in Australia, but when England have won in the past it's usually (not always) been a combination of excellent batting coupled with the intelligent use of spin bowling.

    2011 Swann's offbreaks and Cook/Trott piling up runs
    1986 Phil Edmonds and Chris Broad
    1979 Miller and Gower.

    And this side have no spinners they can rely on and a batting line up that's more fragile than Donald Trump.
    The key is to have good opening batters and good opening bowlers.

    If you don't then you require an inspirational all rounder.
    Lord Botham is 70 now, probably not as good as he used to be.
    He'd still score more runs than Crawley.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,654
    I really cannot see where a sudden Reform fall is coming from, and so the threat of a Tory wipeout seems genuinely real to me.

    The big problem for the Tories was really the lack of honeymoon period for Labour. It was too soon for the Tories to benefit from that, they were not yet trusted again, and so anti-government general sentiment goes elsewhere - on top of many people in the Tories' own ranks wanting to have been like Reform (or its predecessors) for years anyway.

    Even today the Tory ranks are full of people who want to buddy up with Reform, ones who want to bend over for Reform, but also a fair number who hate Reform.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,840

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

    There are two pieces of evidence that counter this poll. The first is the recent moreincommon poll that showed the Tories are much less hated than either Labour or Reform. They are slowly losing their toxic brand. This will not win them new voters but will stop them losing voters. The second is the data from byelections. The Tories won 2 council seats yesterday both in the North and in strong Tory areas.

    Data shows that voters switch between the right parties and the left parties but rarely between left and right. There has been a switch of about 10% of the electorate from left to right. There is no evidence they are going back. In the same way that the left may tactically vote the right can also tactically vote to get rid of Labour/ SNP / PC or potentially the Lib Dems.

    Most of the recent MRP polls have the SNP taking back West Dumfries and Galloway from the Tories next May. The Stranraer by election this week must put this assumption in doubt.

    In summary while many of the Tories in the South East are in trouble in areas such as Trafford they may well be on the way to taking seats back from Labour.


















    The Tories also received a total drubbing in two other by-elections in 'safe' wards where they fell from first to third. With the occasional blip (local factors for local elections), they are being mauled by Reform.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,417

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

    There are two pieces of evidence that counter this poll. The first is the recent moreincommon poll that showed the Tories are much less hated than either Labour or Reform. They are slowly losing their toxic brand. This will not win them new voters but will stop them losing voters. The second is the data from byelections. The Tories won 2 council seats yesterday both in the North and in strong Tory areas.

    Data shows that voters switch between the right parties and the left parties but rarely between left and right. There has been a switch of about 10% of the electorate from left to right. There is no evidence they are going back. In the same way that the left may tactically vote the right can also tactically vote to get rid of Labour/ SNP / PC or potentially the Lib Dems.

    Most of the recent MRP polls have the SNP taking back West Dumfries and Galloway from the Tories next May. The Stranraer by election this week must put this assumption in doubt.

    In summary while many of the Tories in the South East are in trouble in areas such as Trafford they may well be on the way to taking seats back from Labour.

    I’m permanently in the never underestimate the Tories camp. The pressure is off them now, and the opinion polling - notably those “vote against” data yesterday - shows the British voter starting to show its usual forgiving nature and short memory.

    Unless they do something really stupid, it’s well within reach to get back into contention. We are in the perfect environment for Reform to thrive right now: years from a general election, deeply unpopular incumbent, immigration dominating the discourse, and voters not ready yet to go back to the previous government. That environment will get more Tory-friendly with time.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,654

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    You know, people rave about fast bowling being the key in Australia, but when England have won in the past it's usually (not always) been a combination of excellent batting coupled with the intelligent use of spin bowling.

    2011 Swann's offbreaks and Cook/Trott piling up runs
    1986 Phil Edmonds and Chris Broad
    1979 Miller and Gower.

    And this side have no spinners they can rely on and a batting line up that's more fragile than Donald Trump.
    The key is to have good opening batters and good opening bowlers.

    If you don't then you require an inspirational all rounder.
    We do have decent openers - they've been more consistent and high scoring than we've had for years!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 28,557
    FF43 said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    I think the poster suggests Clinton and Trump didn't just have draft dodging in common. Scurrilous interpretations of the Epstein correspondence, no doubt.
    So who's shaft did Clinton throat ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,507

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,654

    Absolutely astonishing innings by Travis Head, on a pitch that everybody else seemed to struggle on. A great watch.

    Hard to watch, and whilst we batted like lemmings, one inspirational innings being the difference does somewhat lessen the sting, since it is not as though the Aussie team as a whole were lightyears ahead.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,507
    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    You know, people rave about fast bowling being the key in Australia, but when England have won in the past it's usually (not always) been a combination of excellent batting coupled with the intelligent use of spin bowling.

    2011 Swann's offbreaks and Cook/Trott piling up runs
    1986 Phil Edmonds and Chris Broad
    1979 Miller and Gower.

    And this side have no spinners they can rely on and a batting line up that's more fragile than Donald Trump.
    The key is to have good opening batters and good opening bowlers.

    If you don't then you require an inspirational all rounder.
    Lord Botham is 70 now, probably not as good as he used to be.
    He'd still score more runs than Crawley.
    That’s true. Quack quack, quack quack.

    When was the last time an opener for England got a pair of ducks?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654
    IanB2 said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    And similarly in SW London. The hidden irony behind the LibDems' success in the 'poshest' areas of the UK is that the bedrock of their support in those areas is among the less well off of the residents there. The real story is that the Tories have lost the support of working age voters, and retreated to being a pensioner party, those pensioners tending not to live in towns and cities.
    Wrong on both counts. At the last general election the LDs did best with voters from upper middle class social class AB and got their highest voteshare in terms of income from those earning over £70k a year.
    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49978-how-britain-voted-in-the-2024-general-election

    Under Kemi the Tories have also lost voteshare amongst pensioners since the last general election and indeed been overtaken by Reform amongst over 65s but Kemi has slightly increased the Tory voteshare amongst under 30s since the last general election, even if the Tories have lost voteshare amongst all voters over 30
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 76,105
    edited 10:38AM
    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sandpit said:

    ydoethur said:

    isam said:

    Alastair Cook faced more balls in his Brisbane double ton in 2010 than England faced in the whole Test here.

    https://x.com/yas_wisden/status/1992151198028181661?s=46&t=CW4pL-mMpTqsJXCdjW0Z6Q

    You know, people rave about fast bowling being the key in Australia, but when England have won in the past it's usually (not always) been a combination of excellent batting coupled with the intelligent use of spin bowling.

    2011 Swann's offbreaks and Cook/Trott piling up runs
    1986 Phil Edmonds and Chris Broad
    1979 Miller and Gower.

    And this side have no spinners they can rely on and a batting line up that's more fragile than Donald Trump.
    The key is to have good opening batters and good opening bowlers.

    If you don't then you require an inspirational all rounder.
    Lord Botham is 70 now, probably not as good as he used to be.
    He'd still score more runs than Crawley.
    That’s true. Quack quack, quack quack.

    When was the last time an opener for England got a pair of ducks?
    Atherton, the wanderers, Joburg, South Africa, 1999

    Last one in Aus was also Atherton in 1998.

    https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmax1=2;batting_positionmin1=1;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=start;orderbyad=reverse;qualmax1=0;qualmax2=2;qualmin1=0;qualmin2=2;qualval1=runs;qualval2=innings;team=1;template=results;type=batting;view=match
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 46,630
    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    Nothing to avoid. Mr Obama was born in 1961, so would not have been of age in the era of conscription.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,112
    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    So which war would Obama have been liable to be called up for?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 16,417
    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    The US ceased the draft in 1973, at which time Barack Obama was 12. A little young to be “dodging” conscription.

    Very soon this will become moot. Gen X leaders were all born too late for it to be relevant.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

    There are two pieces of evidence that counter this poll. The first is the recent moreincommon poll that showed the Tories are much less hated than either Labour or Reform. They are slowly losing their toxic brand. This will not win them new voters but will stop them losing voters. The second is the data from byelections. The Tories won 2 council seats yesterday both in the North and in strong Tory areas.

    Data shows that voters switch between the right parties and the left parties but rarely between left and right. There has been a switch of about 10% of the electorate from left to right. There is no evidence they are going back. In the same way that the left may tactically vote the right can also tactically vote to get rid of Labour/ SNP / PC or potentially the Lib Dems.

    Most of the recent MRP polls have the SNP taking back West Dumfries and Galloway from the Tories next May. The Stranraer by election this week must put this assumption in doubt.

    In summary while many of the Tories in the South East are in trouble in areas such as Trafford they may well be on the way to taking seats back from Labour.


















    Indeed, seats the Tories won in 2019 now held by Labour which voted Leave by less than the national average or even voted Remain are more likely to be gained by the Tories than Reform.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,507
    Carnyx said:

    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    Nothing to avoid. Mr Obama was born in 1961, so would not have been of age in the era of conscription.
    Ah yes. So he didn’t serve, but it was voluntary when he turned adult.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,112

    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    So which war would Obama have been liable to be called up for?
    Obama was too young for the Vietnam draft (it ended before his birth cohort became eligible).
    He did register with Selective Service when required in 1981, as all American men his age did.
    There has been no active draft during his adult life, and he has always been either too young or (for the last ~40 years) far too old to be drafted.

    So, no, Barack Obama was never liable to be drafted into the U.S. military.

  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,866
    Carnyx said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.
    Also a postwar cathedral - architecturally a decent stab at the job too IIRC.
    More pre-war completed post-war. Building started in 1936.

    I'd put it in the same 1920-1950 architectural bucket as Bankside Power Station and similar.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,186
    Cyclefree said:

    Well, as I am sure you will all remember, not least because I wrote about it in some of my headers, there was in fact a report on Russian influence in British politics in ... goodness me .... July 2020.

    You can read the report here - https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf.

    @Malmesbury will be along soon to tell you how all the lessons and recommendations in that report have been learnt and implemented.

    The same Committee also wrote about the influence of other countries such as China - which is just as relevant these days.

    When was it released? I thought they'd chosen to sit on the Russian influence report indefinitely. I haven't read the full details of the Gill trial but the sentence is certainly a warning to any would be traitors.

    I understand the government is now minded to allow the Chinese Embassy. Whilst my initial thought is surely we wouldn't have allowed the Soviet Union to build it so why allow China to? It must be said if it really is a risk to all the sensitive cables etc in the City, then surely it would destroy the place as a financial centre. So why would we allow it?
  • eekeek Posts: 31,986
    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    If it wasn’t for Gus Atkinson England would have nothing to bowl at here.

    As it is, with the pitch easing out it will only take one decent innings from an Aussie batsman and they are home and hosed.

    It’s pretty pathetic to be honest.

    Do you know what's really annoying?

    I was right about this.
    I woke up, opened up cricinfo on the phone with a mildly queasy feeling in the stomach about what I’d find there, and yep. There it was. The inevitable.
    It's the hope that kills

    Yesterday morning - England are shite
    Lunchtime - Australia had similar problems - it's the pitch
    Today - nope England are shite
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,835
    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    Sneaky Obama being just 11 when the draft ended. Typical of those well connected peeps, getting to age 11.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654

    HYUFD said:

    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very interesting alternative history and one which I think would emphasis how well Rishi played his hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    eek said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    Bozo would have been out in 2023 when the partygate scandal forced him to leave Parliament to avoid a recall petition.

    His flaws were also going to come back and bite
    him, it was just a matter of time...

    Truss in 2023 rather than 2022 would be a very
    interesting alternative history and one which I
    think would emphasis how well Rishi played his
    hand to retain 120 seats last July.
    Nope had Boris stayed PM he would not have resigned his seat and of course the Tories won the Uxbridge by election anyway so Truss would never have become Tory leader and PN

    There would have been a recall petition anyway.
    As I said, the Tories won the Uxbridge by election anyway
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 36,071
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    If it wasn’t for Gus Atkinson England would have nothing to bowl at here.

    As it is, with the pitch easing out it will only take one decent innings from an Aussie batsman and they are home and hosed.

    It’s pretty pathetic to be honest.

    Do you know what's really annoying?

    I was right about this.
    I woke up, opened up cricinfo on the phone with a mildly queasy feeling in the stomach about what I’d find there, and yep. There it was. The inevitable.
    It's the hope that kills

    Yesterday morning - England are shite
    Lunchtime - Australia had similar problems - it's the pitch
    Today - nope England are shite
    When I woke up England were 65 for 1 and I thought: 'we might do this'.

    I should have stayed asleep until 10 :(
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,311

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.

    There are two pieces of evidence that counter this poll. The first is the recent moreincommon poll that showed the Tories are much less hated than either Labour or Reform. They are slowly losing their toxic brand. This will not win them new voters but will stop them losing voters. The second is the data from byelections. The Tories won 2 council seats yesterday both in the North and in strong Tory areas.

    Data shows that voters switch between the right parties and the left parties but rarely between left and right. There has been a switch of about 10% of the electorate from left to right. There is no evidence they are going back. In the same way that the left may tactically vote the right can also tactically vote to get rid of Labour/ SNP / PC or potentially the Lib Dems.

    Most of the recent MRP polls have the SNP taking back West Dumfries and Galloway from the Tories next May. The Stranraer by election this week must put this assumption in doubt.

    In summary while many of the Tories in the South East are in trouble in areas such as Trafford they may well be on the way to taking seats back from Labour.


    Fair points, except for the lazy assumption that Tory + Reform = Right. That recently released analysis of Reform's support indicates that a good slice of its support isn't "right wing" at all, and while it's true that it's been stolen from Labour, those folks aren't up for switching to the Tories and certainly aren't looking for Thatcherism redux.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,569
    "Shabana Mahmood: Labour must stop gaslighting voters about immigration"

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/shabana-mahmood-labour-mps-immigration-65pkftk7f
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,841
    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    Barack Obama was too young to be drafted.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654
    edited 10:51AM
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833. The villages may be even posher and full of retired wealthy Tory pensioners but the city of Guildford is still largely full of posh commuters as are the towns of Woking and Camberley.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/

    In Guildford constituency 67% of voters have a degree or at least A levels or Level 3 qualifications compared to only 51% of all UK voters
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Guildford
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,311
    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    ROFLMAO
    All the 'it would be fine if Boris had not been removed' beliefs seem to be founded on the idea that it was some inexplicable event which had no build up or reasoning to it.

    Now, the manner in which he was replaced, with Truss then Sunak in short order, and how they then acted, means I can believe they might not have lost as badly in 2024 had he not been replaced, but the way it is presented it is as though 2019 Boris would have been the one up for re-election, not the Boris who did such a bad job that his own MPs forced him out. Mistake or not they didn't do that willy nilly. And if they had not done it, why on earth would Boris suddenly have gotten a grip when it was his personal failings as a leader which kept causing them problems?
    plus its human nature, when deep in a hole, to imagine up fantastical solutions to your predicament - the return of Johnson for the Tories fulfils the same sort of wet dream as Burnham dropping into number ten does for Labour's soft left. Johnson was a disaster as PM - both for the country and his party - and would be so again, if by some miracle he did return, as would the 'bonnie' prince have been, judging from every assessment of his character, had he returned over the water to take either the Scottish or British crown.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,507

    Sandpit said:

    I’ve just seen something I need to share with you all, you can thank me later.


    Clinton was also a draft dodger.
    10 “Patriots” Who Dodged the Draft or Did Not Serve
    https://www.historyandheadlines.com/10-patriots-who-dodged-the-draft-or-did-not-serve/

    Read the article for details but their list is:-

    10. George W. Bush
    9. Rudy Giuliani
    8. Mitt Romney
    7. Ted Nugent
    6. Bruce Springsteen
    5. Newt Gingrich
    4. Bill Clinton
    3. Muhammad Ali
    2. Dick Cheney
    1. John Wayne
    Bonus: Donald Trump
    Bonus: Joe Biden
    Another bonus: Barack Obama, so we have the last five Presidents in the list.

    The well-connected always find a way of avoiding things they don’t want to do.
    Barack Obama was too young to be drafted.
    Yeah yeah I got that one wrong! Mea culpa.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,835
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/
    Guildford is, Woking isn't, but Guildford isn't super posh and Woking is average rather than particularly run down. Don't know Camberley.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,569
    edited 10:51AM
    "Harry Lambert
    @harrytlambert

    Glasman: Labour will leave the ECHR in the end as judges - "a bunch of arrogant, unaccountable, useless people who protect Albanian drug dealers from getting deported" - won't take the hint from Mahmood"

    https://x.com/harrytlambert/status/1991827558183178710
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,507

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/
    Guildford is, Woking isn't, but Guildford isn't super posh and Woking is average rather than particularly run down. Don't know Camberley.
    Nice houses in Camberley, but if you lived there you’d rather go shopping in Guildford or Reading.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 33,841
    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    algarkirk said:

    The leaked poll and the comments around it are looking in the wrong place. This has almost nothing to do with an individual leadership but to do with two key strategic positions:

    What would be the USPs for having a Tory government

    and

    Are alternatives available to a Tory vote.

    As to USPs the problem is simple: Tory voters sympathetic to Reform will vote Reform
    Tory voters unsympathetic to Reform will not vote for Toryreformlite, but for NOTA, LDs, Lab, PC, SNP.

    So whoever is the leader they need to answer these:

    Why are Tories better than Reform
    Where do Tories credibly stand on asylum and inward migration
    Explain how 14 years of Tory rule got us to where we are
    Outline the next 2, 5, 10 year strategy on the big questions (economy, defence, Europe, health, spending, welfare, debt, deficit)
    Can Tories display competence and statesmanship.

    The market is for a "What works" conservatism. They need to reject the period at least from 2015 to 2024, when things obviously weren't working, or least make people forget about it.

    The Tories need a Disraeli I guess.
    They had one, Boris
    Had being the operative word.

    Boris was popular once and good for a while. He got Brexit done and steered us through Covid adroitly.

    But that ship has sailed. He had to go when he did. The Tories need someone new.
    Had Boris not been removed in 2022, Reform would not now be
    ahead in the polls and a now
    Sunak led Tories would likely
    now have a big poll lead over
    the Starmer Labour
    government. Rishi destroyed his political career and maybe his party too because he couldn't wait his turn and wasn't cunning enough politically to realise that Tory MPs rather than the voters who elected Boris PM removing Boris would be a gift to Farage
    ROFLMAO
    All the 'it would be fine if Boris had not been removed' beliefs seem to be founded on the idea that it was some inexplicable event which had no build up or reasoning to it.

    Now, the manner in which he was replaced, with Truss then Sunak in short order, and how they then acted, means I can believe they might not have lost as badly in 2024 had he not been replaced, but the way it is presented it is as though 2019 Boris would have been the one up for re-election, not the Boris who did such a bad job that his own MPs forced him out. Mistake or not they didn't do that willy nilly. And if they had not done it, why on earth would Boris suddenly have gotten a grip when it was his personal failings as a leader which kept causing them problems?
    plus its human nature, when deep in a hole, to imagine up fantastical solutions to your predicament - the return of Johnson for the Tories fulfils the same sort of wet dream as Burnham dropping into number ten does for Labour's soft left. Johnson was a disaster as PM - both for the country and his party - and would be so again, if by some miracle he did return, as would the 'bonnie' prince have been, judging from every assessment of his character, had he returned over the water to take either the Scottish or British crown.
    No-one rushed to the defence of Boris when he was duffed up in the Covid report this week. Unless there is something in the Sunday papers, this week probably marked the end for any hope of returning to power.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/
    Guildford is, Woking isn't, but Guildford isn't super posh and Woking is average rather than particularly run down. Don't know Camberley.
    Even in Woking 68% of voters are middle class ABC1s compared to only 56% GB wide
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Woking
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,112
    kle4 said:

    I really cannot see where a sudden Reform fall is coming from, and so the threat of a Tory wipeout seems genuinely real to me.

    The big problem for the Tories was really the lack of honeymoon period for Labour. It was too soon for the Tories to benefit from that, they were not yet trusted again, and so anti-government general sentiment goes elsewhere - on top of many people in the Tories' own ranks wanting to have been like Reform (or its predecessors) for years anyway.

    Even today the Tory ranks are full of people who want to buddy up with Reform, ones who want to bend over for Reform, but also a fair number who hate Reform.

    Maybe people will start to understand that Reform hasn't helped them with living costs which have been made worse by Brexit.
    Maybe Trump and Trump boosters will become even more unpopular with the electorate.
    Maybe people will turn against a party that seems to boost the Russian leader and their propaganda (whether for money or for free).
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 10,186
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833. The villages may be even posher and full of retired wealthy Tory pensioners but the city of Guildford is still largely full of posh commuters as are the towns of Woking and Camberley.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/

    In Guildford constituency 67% of voters have a degree or at least A levels or Level 3 qualifications compared to only 51% of all UK voters
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Guildford
    What about age demographics? Younger? I have a close friend who has recently moved to Guildford so I'm interested in the place.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 58,507
    Andy_JS said:

    "Shabana Mahmood: Labour must stop gaslighting voters about immigration"

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/shabana-mahmood-labour-mps-immigration-65pkftk7f

    Well she’s turning out to be quite the revelation as HS.

    Shows just how useless Yvette was in the role.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,569
    edited 10:57AM
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Depends what you mean by posh. If it's house prices in Guildford, then yes.

    The main difference between Guildford town and the villages will be age. Younger voters in the town.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 53,311
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/
    Guildford is, Woking isn't, but Guildford isn't super posh and Woking is average rather than particularly run down. Don't know Camberley.
    Even in Woking 68% of voters are middle class ABC1s compared to only 56% GB wide
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Woking
    Hardly a chasm of a difference. And since when can you judge people by house prices? - as in London, those folks in the South East own expensive properties because they've been on the local rising property ladder for a long time; not because they have massive salaries and bought their £half million house for cash.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654
    edited 10:57AM

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833. The villages may be even posher and full of retired wealthy Tory pensioners but the city of Guildford is still largely full of posh commuters as are the towns of Woking and Camberley.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/

    In Guildford constituency 67% of voters have a degree or at least A levels or Level 3 qualifications compared to only 51% of all UK voters
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Guildford
    What about age demographics? Younger? I have a close friend who has recently moved to Guildford so I'm interested in the place.
    The University of Surrey is there so it has a few students as well but most of them are also reasonably posh even if not Durham, St Andrews and Oxford posh
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,866

    Taz said:
    What? It gives the Ukrainians too much.

    He needs to row back on the rhetoric after Nathan Gill (whom I don't believe he knew).
    Yes he did. They were UKIP MEPs together from 2014 to 2020. But also at other times. Farage on Gill:

    Asked about Gill’s admission, Mr Farage said: “Any political party can find in their midst all sorts of terrible people.

    “Gill is particularly shocking because I knew him as a devout Christian, very clean-living, honest person. So I’m deeply shocked. But you know, that is a different time.

    “I’m the only one [in Reform] that really knew him, going back a long way.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-nathan-gill-russian-bribes-reform-wales-b2843272.html
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 38,569
    edited 10:59AM
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/
    Guildford is, Woking isn't, but Guildford isn't super posh and Woking is average rather than particularly run down. Don't know Camberley.
    Even in Woking 68% of voters are middle class ABC1s compared to only 56% GB wide
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Woking
    Hardly a chasm of a difference. And since when can you judge people by house prices? - as in London, those folks in the South East own expensive properties because they've been on the local rising property ladder for a long time; not because they have massive salaries and bought their £half million house for cash.
    Compare house prices in strongly LD areas with house prices in places where the LDs do indifferently. That's the difference. Also the percentage with higher qualifications between those types of seats.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 30,866
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Shabana Mahmood: Labour must stop gaslighting voters about immigration"

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/shabana-mahmood-labour-mps-immigration-65pkftk7f

    Well she’s turning out to be quite the revelation as HS.

    Shows just how useless Yvette was in the role.
    Where will RefUK pivot if immigration is sidelined as a core issue?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 26,838
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, as I am sure you will all remember, not least because I wrote about it in some of my headers, there was in fact a report on Russian influence in British politics in ... goodness me .... July 2020.

    You can read the report here - https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf.

    @Malmesbury will be along soon to tell you how all the lessons and recommendations in that report have been learnt and implemented.

    The same Committee also wrote about the influence of other countries such as China - which is just as relevant these days.

    When was it released? I thought they'd chosen to sit on the Russian influence report indefinitely. I haven't read the full details of the Gill trial but the sentence is certainly a warning to any would be traitors.

    I understand the government is now minded to allow the Chinese Embassy. Whilst my initial thought is surely we wouldn't have allowed the Soviet Union to build it so why allow China to? It must be said if it really is a risk to all the sensitive cables etc in the City, then surely it would destroy the place as a financial centre. So why would we allow it?
    Because Starmer is a lawyer, a process man, and they’ve submitted all the required paperwork on time.

    Whereas in actuality it’s a blatantly political decision, and should be turned down because, well, one of our significant adversaries China wants to build a massive espionage HQ in the middle of London!
    Starmerism: obey the law, fuck the people.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 13,327

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Guildford town centre may not be Cotswolds naice but it is significantly better than average. A castle, water, decent range of independent shops, fewer vape, bookies, charities and vacant lots than the vast majority of similar sized English towns.
    It is, but I'm sorry that analysis is not correct. You are just looking at the High St. Nobody lives there. They live around it. Park Barn is a huge ex council estate. Most of the other houses in the town are old small terraces. Once you move out further you get to housing estates of flats, semis, and small detached houses. There are only a handful of big houses in Guildford itself and many of those are multiple occupancy flats eh York Rd. Outside of Guildford you get the posh villages. We expect to win the town. Victory is achieved my squeezing the villages. Not to winning them but minimising the loss.

    Woking is even more so. People have an odd view of Surrey. Sheerwater in Woking or Old Dean in Camberley are not just not posh they are very unposh.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 131,654
    edited 11:04AM
    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    algarkirk said:

    Roger said:

    The problem for the Tories is that apart from their own diehards -14 seats worth-they have no allies. Faced with Farage or Badenoch civilised folk might as well go to the pub.

    Labour by contrast have a cornucopia of choice. Labour.... Lib Dem ....Zacks mob....Gaza indy's.....whichever is in the best position to defeat the fascists and I have no doubt that they'll come out in force

    The dog that continues not to bark is the LDs. In 100 seats they are safely either first or contending to win, in the rest SFAICS no movement that matters. The only centrists who have not trashed their reputation, they could and should be the obvious refuge but they are not. In a sense this is more mysterious than why the Tories look as if they may go out of business, and I can't see a non-circular explanation.
    The LDs are now the party of posh home counties
    Remainers, the leftwingers who backed Charles Kennedy now vote Green or Labour and Leavers won't vote for them either
    You are right, it is, but remember the vast majority of the voters in these constituencies aren't posh. Guildford, Woking, Camberley, etc town centres aren't posh and these are the areas they pile up the majority of votes. Even posh villages, like I live in, still have a council housing, flats above shops etc and these villages still vote primarily Tory. We analyse the boxes when they are opened. The villages all around me voted Tory. Our village was neck and neck, but Guildford town was LD and by far the biggest block of votes.
    Aren't they? Average house price in Guildford is £550674, average house price in Woking is £507879, average house price in Camberley is £522321 and average UK house price is only £364,833.
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/guildford.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/woking.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/camberley.html
    https://www.rightmove.co.uk/news/house-price-index/
    Guildford is, Woking isn't, but Guildford isn't super posh and Woking is average rather than particularly run down. Don't know Camberley.
    Even in Woking 68% of voters are middle class ABC1s compared to only 56% GB wide
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Woking
    Hardly a chasm of a difference. And since when can you judge people by house prices? - as in London, those folks in the South East own expensive properties because they've been on the local rising property ladder for a long time; not because they have massive salaries and bought their £half million house for cash.
    A pretty big 12% difference and that is in the supposedly least posh of the 3 Surrey towns mentioned.

    As I also pointed out all 3 Surrey towns have more graduates and those with A levels than the UK average too and Woking and Guildford have an average household income of £58k compared to just £42k GB wide.
    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Woking

    https://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/fcgi-bin/seatdetails.py?seat=Guildford
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 25,835
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    If it wasn’t for Gus Atkinson England would have nothing to bowl at here.

    As it is, with the pitch easing out it will only take one decent innings from an Aussie batsman and they are home and hosed.

    It’s pretty pathetic to be honest.

    Do you know what's really annoying?

    I was right about this.
    I woke up, opened up cricinfo on the phone with a mildly queasy feeling in the stomach about what I’d find there, and yep. There it was. The inevitable.
    It's the hope that kills

    Yesterday morning - England are shite
    Lunchtime - Australia had similar problems - it's the pitch
    Today - nope England are shite
    England are reckless not shite.

    All time England highest win %s

    1. M Brearley 58.06%
    2. B Stokes 57.89%
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 63,168
    Sandpit said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Well, as I am sure you will all remember, not least because I wrote about it in some of my headers, there was in fact a report on Russian influence in British politics in ... goodness me .... July 2020.

    You can read the report here - https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf.

    @Malmesbury will be along soon to tell you how all the lessons and recommendations in that report have been learnt and implemented.

    The same Committee also wrote about the influence of other countries such as China - which is just as relevant these days.

    When was it released? I thought they'd chosen to sit on the Russian influence report indefinitely. I haven't read the full details of the Gill trial but the sentence is certainly a warning to any would be traitors.

    I understand the government is now minded to allow the Chinese Embassy. Whilst my initial thought is surely we wouldn't have allowed the Soviet Union to build it so why allow China to? It must be said if it really is a risk to all the sensitive cables etc in the City, then surely it would destroy the place as a financial centre. So why would we allow it?
    Because Starmer is a lawyer, a process man, and they’ve submitted all the required paperwork on time.

    Whereas in actuality it’s a blatantly political decision, and should be turned down because, well, one of our significant adversaries China wants to build a massive espionage HQ in the middle of London!
    The Conservatives and others should hammer Labour if they allow that. Recent (aborted) court action and warnings about the risk China poses make this pretty obvious.
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