To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .
This country has lost its mind .
An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.
The whole point of the protest is to waste police time, and highlight the authoritarian nature of this law.
I expect that the CPS will decide that prosecuting these cases is "not in the public interest" and they get dismissed.
If that’s the case then why are they complaining at being arrested?
Because causing trouble to the police is the point!
Shouldn’t they be happy as they are getting what they wanted?
To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .
This country has lost its mind .
An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.
The police don’t have to waste time arresting Gaza protesters. They could be gainfully employed stopping shoplifters. However, that’s more difficult and risky than arresting 89 year olds, so protesters will get their attention.
They don’t need to arrest people protesting about Gaza legally, like the vast majority do.
Labour and three of its MPs accepted more than £40,000 of election campaign donations from a convicted criminal the party expelled as a member three years ago.
At a great age I’ve learned something new tonight, Cassius as in Cassius Clay is pronounced Cashous.
From the ‘We have ways’ podcast I learnt that Carl Spaatz’s name was pronounced ‘spots’. Americans.
I also had to work out the pronounciations of Stein. Is it Steen or Stine. Turns out it’s largely an American Jewish v German thing. The Jewish is Steen and German Stine. Still didn’t clear up if Harvey Weinstein was Harvey Weensteen, Winestine, Weenstine or Winesteen.
To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .
This country has lost its mind .
An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.
Yvette Cooper is the one wasting police time . A hysterical over reaction to what was criminal damage not terrorism .
Under the law passed by Tony Blair inflicting serious criminal damage in an attempt to force political changes you can't get via the ballot box is terrorism.
Like many laws passed by that authoritarian awful leader I'd love to see it repealed, but your upset that the rule of law is being upheld on these terrorists is amusing.
If you want political change then seek it via the ballot box, or non-violent protest. PAs violent actions absolutely were terrorism under our laws.
The vast majority of the public will not see that as terrorism . And strangely questions as to why they were even able to get that close to the military planes seems to have been ignored . What sort of poxy security was in place ?
Then the vast majority of people can vote to change the law.
Under the law passed by Tony Blair a quarter of a century ago, it is terrorism.
Should the rule of law not apply here?
You seem very happy to want the rule of law applied in the UK but seem to ignore it when it comes to international law .
International law is the pirate code, more what we call guidelines than actual rules.
Domestic law, as voted for by Parliament, is far more important.
That's what we call democracy. If you don't like the law, you vote to change it - and if that change goes against international law, then democracy has to take priority.
You mean like the Duma where politicians rubber stamped “ the special military operation “. Or those that voted the Nazis in under the guise of democracy . Your argument is that regardless of the consequences international law should just be ignored and no effort made to even enforce it .
You mean like the Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights that following Russia's invasion of Crimea restored Russia's full membership and voting rights and restored them to being a member of good standing until that vote by the Duma, despite Russia's lack of freedom and democracy?
I support liberal democracy, neither Nazi Germany nor ECHR-approved (until 2020) Russia were or are democracies.
Sacrificing democracy in the name of international law is no more appropriate than any other reason to end democracy.
The law should be determined by Parliament in free and fair elections, and no Parliament should ever bind its successors. Any law, including international ones, should be up for debate come election time if the people want change.
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
My family is a mixture of different classes and I used to think that was normal. I was a bit surprised when I realised how many families have members who are almost entirely from one class.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
At a great age I’ve learned something new tonight, Cassius as in Cassius Clay is pronounced Cashous.
From the ‘We have ways’ podcast I learnt that Carl Spaatz’s name was pronounced ‘spots’. Americans.
I also had to work out the pronounciations of Stein. Is it Steen or Stine. Turns out it’s largely an American Jewish v German thing. The Jewish is Steen and German Stine. Still didn’t clear up if Harvey Weinstein was Harvey Weensteen, Winestine, Weenstine or Winesteen.
I believe Corbyn pronouncing Epstein as Epshtein was accounted proof of his deep antisemitism.
At a great age I’ve learned something new tonight, Cassius as in Cassius Clay is pronounced Cashous.
From the ‘We have ways’ podcast I learnt that Carl Spaatz’s name was pronounced ‘spots’. Americans.
I also had to work out the pronounciations of Stein. Is it Steen or Stine. Turns out it’s largely an American Jewish v German thing. The Jewish is Steen and German Stine. Still didn’t clear up if Harvey Weinstein was Harvey Weensteen, Winestine, Weenstine or Winesteen.
I believe Corbyn pronouncing Epstein as Epshtein was accounted proof of his deep antisemitism.
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
The original Cassius Clay was quite a man. For example:
During a political debate in 1843, Clay survived his first assassination attempt by Sam Brown, a hired gunman. Jerking his Bowie knife out for retaliation, Clay happened to pull its silver-tipped scabbard up over his heart. Brown's bullet struck the scabbard and embedded in the silver. Despite having been shot in the chest, Clay tackled Brown. He cut off Brown's nose, took out one eye, and possibly cut off an ear before throwing Brown over an embankment.[9][10]
In 1845, Clay began publishing an anti-slavery newspaper, True American, in Lexington, Kentucky. Within a month, he received death threats, had to arm himself, and regularly barricaded the armored doors of his newspaper office for protection, besides setting up two four-pounder cannons inside. Shortly afterward, a mob of about 60 men broke into his office and seized his printing equipment. To protect his venture, Clay set up a publication center in Cincinnati, Ohio, a center of abolitionists in the free state, but continued to reside in Kentucky.
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
Every country has a social class system to some degree, even if you don't think about it
" Nobody's Fault But Mine - Blind Willie Johnson " -- ~1927. It still somewhat boggles my mind that that's almost a century ago. I have mp3's of wax/edison cylinders from even before then.
I still think the recording of sound is one of our greatest modern achievements. I hope one day those weird looping 'recordings' from the 1800s can be recovered by some magic AI elf. There are some very early recordings recovered all the same :
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
All immigrants are lower class, until and unless they achieve something, with the exception of the Jews, perhaps the Japanese, and to an extent the French
We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
All immigrants are lower class, until and unless they achieve something, with the exception of the Jews, perhaps the Japanese, and to an extent the French
We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him
It's this energy which powers Britain today
What about immigrants who marry royals and aristocrats? A common occurrence in centuries past
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
All immigrants are lower class, until and unless they achieve something, with the exception of the Jews, perhaps the Japanese, and to an extent the French
We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him
It's this energy which powers Britain today
What about immigrants who marry royals and aristocrats? A common occurrence in centuries past
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
All immigrants are lower class, until and unless they achieve something, with the exception of the Jews, perhaps the Japanese, and to an extent the French
We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him
It's this energy which powers Britain today
What about immigrants who marry royals and aristocrats? A common occurrence in centuries past
Plebs
Hardly, given most of them were foreign aristocrats or European royalty themselves.
If you are born upper class you never need to strive for anything, you are born upper class and will be so your entire life and can even look down your nose at self made billionaires (even if you sometimes have to marry your daughters off to a wealthy American commoner from time to time to top up the family finances)
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Thing is though HYUFD, even if Russia managed to pile into Ukraine, they would be left with an Afghanistan situation for potentially decades. Ukrainians wouldn’t just say “it’s a fair cop, we’re Russian now”, it would be an ongoing brutal bloodletting backed by weapons and intelligence from Europe. Might not be as good as having US backing but Russia cannot indefinitely take that so it’s in their interests for a settlement.
Am whilst Ukraine didn’t defeat Putin, Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine even with his paper advantages. They won’t roll over.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Thing is though HYUFD, even if Russia managed to pile into Ukraine, they would be left with an Afghanistan situation for potentially decades. Ukrainians wouldn’t just say “it’s a fair cop, we’re Russian now”, it would be an ongoing brutal bloodletting backed by weapons and intelligence from Europe. Might not be as good as having US backing but Russia cannot indefinitely take that so it’s in their interests for a settlement.
Am whilst Ukraine didn’t defeat Putin, Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine even with his paper advantages. They won’t roll over.
No but if Putin lost in Ukraine and withdrew completely he knows he would soon be toppled as President now after such a humiliation for Russia, so he cannot back down either
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Alan Clarke’s quote is sophisticated conversationalism, or the idea that every tier looks down on the one directly below?
I’d say the latter is absolutely the case. As is the reverse: every tier in society most ardently resents the tier directly above them.
For an example of looking down, take the instructive case of the upper-upper-middle Topping decrying the interior decor of the mid-upper-middle Leon yesterday. The perfectly chosen words “it’s not even Elephant’s breath”. For an example of proximate upwards resentment listen to any Tory moaning about smashed avocado and latte supping.
In both cases there is the perfect mixture of class warfare and class betrayal.
Further, noblesse oblige and its modern exemplar (affected upper-middle concern for the WWC) only operates with a gap of several tiers. You don’t see Sainsburys shoppers expressing sympathy for the more gamey opinions of Tesco shoppers.
I object! It is much subtler than that. I went to a comprehensive, and my paternal grandfather was a chippy in a tinmine, and my Mum was very working class, and my maternal grandmother was slave labour - a bal maiden, age 10 - almost below working class
My proximate origins are very proletarian, and yet I have - to be frank - the life experiences and outlook of someone exceptionally uppper class, and not British at all. This is what annoys classic PB Anglo poshos like @StillWaters and @TOPPING
In some obscure way they cannot quite place, I outrank them. They can't understand it, and they dislike it
I've encountered this elsewhere, FWIW, not just on PB
I don’t know why you think I’m annoyed by you? I’ve never given you that much thought, to be honest.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Thing is though HYUFD, even if Russia managed to pile into Ukraine, they would be left with an Afghanistan situation for potentially decades. Ukrainians wouldn’t just say “it’s a fair cop, we’re Russian now”, it would be an ongoing brutal bloodletting backed by weapons and intelligence from Europe. Might not be as good as having US backing but Russia cannot indefinitely take that so it’s in their interests for a settlement.
Am whilst Ukraine didn’t defeat Putin, Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine even with his paper advantages. They won’t roll over.
No but if Putin lost in Ukraine and withdrew completely he knows he would soon be toppled as President now after such a humiliation for Russia, so he cannot back down either
Then it comes to the question of what the power elite in Russia care more about, “winning” a war that they can anyway spin to the population however they wish, the fact that how badly it has gone anyway hasn’t moved the dial with the population shows that this isn’t an issue. Or do they want access to global business and money markets more.
If Putin can tell the power brokers, who are moneyed gangsters, “you can have your yachts, villas and bank accounts back but we have to make a fudge and declare it a victory” which do you think they will go for?
The elite are fat, they aren’t soldiers, the war would have been great if they had rolled over Ukraine but frankly it’s messing with their Daughters’ insta trips to Mykonos and their wives shopping in London and Paris.
As long as they have something they can, with the help of a compliant media, spin as a great victory, Putin’s internal enemies get to go back to making money.
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
All immigrants are lower class, until and unless they achieve something, with the exception of the Jews, perhaps the Japanese, and to an extent the French
We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him
It's this energy which powers Britain today
What about immigrants who marry royals and aristocrats? A common occurrence in centuries past
Plebs
Hardly, given most of them were foreign aristocrats or European royalty themselves.
If you are born upper class you never need to strive for anything, you are born upper class and will be so your entire life and can even look down your nose at self made billionaires (even if you sometimes have to marry your daughters off to a wealthy American commoner from time to time to top up the family finances)
As I’ve mentioned on here a few times, myfamily tree is unusually traceable back to the 10th century
So I can prove I descend from royalty (as is true of all of us, it’s just rarely provable, as @IanB2 trenchantly and correctly pointed out to me at the time)
One part of this weirdness is that I know my great great great great grandparents worked, at all hours, from aged 10, in the dangerous tin mines that THEIR great great great grandparents - Anglo-Norman-Cornish nobility - used to own
My undersea mining ancestors would not have been aware of this tremendous irony. But it is the case
So it’s all ridiculous in the end, albeit great material for novelists and snobs
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Alan Clarke’s quote is sophisticated conversationalism, or the idea that every tier looks down on the one directly below?
I’d say the latter is absolutely the case. As is the reverse: every tier in society most ardently resents the tier directly above them.
For an example of looking down, take the instructive case of the upper-upper-middle Topping decrying the interior decor of the mid-upper-middle Leon yesterday. The perfectly chosen words “it’s not even Elephant’s breath”. For an example of proximate upwards resentment listen to any Tory moaning about smashed avocado and latte supping.
In both cases there is the perfect mixture of class warfare and class betrayal.
Further, noblesse oblige and its modern exemplar (affected upper-middle concern for the WWC) only operates with a gap of several tiers. You don’t see Sainsburys shoppers expressing sympathy for the more gamey opinions of Tesco shoppers.
I object! It is much subtler than that. I went to a comprehensive, and my paternal grandfather was a chippy in a tinmine, and my Mum was very working class, and my maternal grandmother was slave labour - a bal maiden, age 10 - almost below working class
My proximate origins are very proletarian, and yet I have - to be frank - the life experiences and outlook of someone exceptionally uppper class, and not British at all. This is what annoys classic PB Anglo poshos like @StillWaters and @TOPPING
In some obscure way they cannot quite place, I outrank them. They can't understand it, and they dislike it
I've encountered this elsewhere, FWIW, not just on PB
Are you just sore because Topping pooh-poohed your interior deco ?
I understand that one should never ignore a pooh-pooh, but what's your beef with StillWaters ?
@StillWaters got really tetchy when I first pointed out this (genuine) phenomenon on PB: that I seem to weirdly unnerve "regular" posh English people (not just on PB). The people who get tetchy - and touchy - tend to be those who don't have much claim to any status in life APART from their poshness. So if they are outranked in a way they do not comprehend they act out. I wonder if it gives me some insight into being rich and Jewish
lol
Anyway the way @StillWaters reacted - exactly as I was saying of others - suggests to me he is not quite the average middle middle class dude he alleges. See also his "lunches with senior people in Hollywood"
I have no actual "beef" with @StillWaters - not at all. He is alway polite, affable, personable, articulate, and sometimes quite insightful. I like him (as a PB commenter)
Perhaps you are thinking of someone else? I don’t recall getting tetchy with you. And certainly not about your job - personally I think it must be a pretty lonely life, but I guess it works for you
There’s nothing more English than discussing the granular intricacies of the English class system while making out that one is a special case who has slipped the surly bonds of class.
One of the joys of marrying an immigrant, I don't think my wife has ever spoken about or in terms of class, and certainly doesn't think that way. Simply a non-issue.
All immigrants are lower class, until and unless they achieve something, with the exception of the Jews, perhaps the Japanese, and to an extent the French
We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him
It's this energy which powers Britain today
Yes. One thing that always struck me about Prince Phillip was he never lost touch with his working class roots.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Thing is though HYUFD, even if Russia managed to pile into Ukraine, they would be left with an Afghanistan situation for potentially decades. Ukrainians wouldn’t just say “it’s a fair cop, we’re Russian now”, it would be an ongoing brutal bloodletting backed by weapons and intelligence from Europe. Might not be as good as having US backing but Russia cannot indefinitely take that so it’s in their interests for a settlement.
Am whilst Ukraine didn’t defeat Putin, Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine even with his paper advantages. They won’t roll over.
No but if Putin lost in Ukraine and withdrew completely he knows he would soon be toppled as President now after such a humiliation for Russia, so he cannot back down either
Then it comes to the question of what the power elite in Russia care more about, “winning” a war that they can anyway spin to the population however they wish, the fact that how badly it has gone anyway hasn’t moved the dial with the population shows that this isn’t an issue. Or do they want access to global business and money markets more.
If Putin can tell the power brokers, who are moneyed gangsters, “you can have your yachts, villas and bank accounts back but we have to make a fudge and declare it a victory” which do you think they will go for?
The elite are fat, they aren’t soldiers, the war would have been great if they had rolled over Ukraine but frankly it’s messing with their Daughters’ insta trips to Mykonos and their wives shopping in London and Paris.
As long as they have something they can, with the help of a compliant media, spin as a great victory, Putin’s internal enemies get to go back to making money.
Which still requires occupation of part of Ukraine even then, complete withdrawal could never be spun as a victory however hard the spinning
At a great age I’ve learned something new tonight, Cassius as in Cassius Clay is pronounced Cashous.
From the ‘We have ways’ podcast I learnt that Carl Spaatz’s name was pronounced ‘spots’. Americans.
I also had to work out the pronounciations of Stein. Is it Steen or Stine. Turns out it’s largely an American Jewish v German thing. The Jewish is Steen and German Stine. Still didn’t clear up if Harvey Weinstein was Harvey Weensteen, Winestine, Weenstine or Winesteen.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
But think about all those freebie suits and shoes you could get.
But the politics of envy would kick in.
I'd get criticised for turning up to parliament or a constituency surgery wearing £700 Louis Vuitton shoes, £500 Turnbull & Asser shirt, and £3,500 bespoke suit, and that's me slumming it.
Edit - And I haven't even mentioned the watches.
How the heck are you spending £500 on T&A? My shirts are only £165 from Hilditch & Key and that’s a far better brand
Mine are Ben Sherman, and the sale at that.
It reminds me of the joke about 2 Russian oligarchs:
Oligarch one: Hey, Boris, get a load of my new jacket, it cost $2000
Oligarch two: That's nothing Vanya, I know where you can get the exact same jacket for $5000.
I have precisely one H&K shirt… most of mine are Hawes & Curtis at £100 for 4…
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Even before recent mooted increases in expenditure, European NATO nations spent $380bn on military expenditure in 2024. That excludes the USA, merely European NATO nations.
Russia spent $149bn on its military.
European nations (including the UK) collectively outspend Russia by over 2.5 to 1.
Furthermore that represented merely 2.2% of European GDP versus 7.1% of Russian GDP, over 19% of Russian governmental expenditure. Not only does Europe have deeper pockets than Russia, but we have more room to move too.
That is why Russia is desperate to manipulate America into ending the war and hoping Europe caves too. It is only a lack of self-belief that could stop us from standing up to Russia - with or without the Americans.
So tech geeks, is there a way with AI that we could have PB where every poster can record a few key words so AI translates posts into speeach based on a selection of sentences and posts can be voice notes so you could set it, when you are doing other things to just voice the posts. Like hearing a conversation in a pub you can dip into bit actually based on our voices and personalities. I want to hear MalcolmG in his finest Scottish roar and Kinabalu’s finest RP when they pronounce their views on here.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
But think about all those freebie suits and shoes you could get.
But the politics of envy would kick in.
I'd get criticised for turning up to parliament or a constituency surgery wearing £700 Louis Vuitton shoes, £500 Turnbull & Asser shirt, and £3,500 bespoke suit, and that's me slumming it.
Edit - And I haven't even mentioned the watches.
How the heck are you spending £500 on T&A? My shirts are only £165 from Hilditch & Key and that’s a far better brand
Mine are Ben Sherman, and the sale at that.
It reminds me of the joke about 2 Russian oligarchs:
Oligarch one: Hey, Boris, get a load of my new jacket, it cost $2000
Oligarch two: That's nothing Vanya, I know where you can get the exact same jacket for $5000.
I have precisely one H&K shirt… most of mine are Hawes & Curtis at £100 for 4…
My shits are from Next. They were really good quality button-down Oxfords, with thick cotton. They don't make them any more. I get them patched when the elbows wear out.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Alan Clarke’s quote is sophisticated conversationalism, or the idea that every tier looks down on the one directly below?
I’d say the latter is absolutely the case. As is the reverse: every tier in society most ardently resents the tier directly above them.
For an example of looking down, take the instructive case of the upper-upper-middle Topping decrying the interior decor of the mid-upper-middle Leon yesterday. The perfectly chosen words “it’s not even Elephant’s breath”. For an example of proximate upwards resentment listen to any Tory moaning about smashed avocado and latte supping.
In both cases there is the perfect mixture of class warfare and class betrayal.
Further, noblesse oblige and its modern exemplar (affected upper-middle concern for the WWC) only operates with a gap of several tiers. You don’t see Sainsburys shoppers expressing sympathy for the more gamey opinions of Tesco shoppers.
I object! It is much subtler than that. I went to a comprehensive, and my paternal grandfather was a chippy in a tinmine, and my Mum was very working class, and my maternal grandmother was slave labour - a bal maiden, age 10 - almost below working class
My proximate origins are very proletarian, and yet I have - to be frank - the life experiences and outlook of someone exceptionally uppper class, and not British at all. This is what annoys classic PB Anglo poshos like @StillWaters and @TOPPING
In some obscure way they cannot quite place, I outrank them. They can't understand it, and they dislike it
I've encountered this elsewhere, FWIW, not just on PB
I understand this thought process, when I was at school I was from a set a lot of my peers couldn’t get their heads around. I hadn’t been to one of the traditional feeder prep schools to school (all of us Jersey chaps were eyed with suspicion), wasn’t from the UK but also wasn’t “foreign”. I had more money than a huge chunk of them, but had a different outlook. I was at a co-Ed prep school so had girl friends at neighbouring girls boarding school from prep school whereas girls were a mystery to most, my parents backgrounds were confusing as they didn’t understand why they hadn’t just done what their parents were doing with their backgrounds and living where they “should”. There is nothing as confusing to English people as people who don’t fit into a box. But then I consider myself culturally and proudly English even though I’m not on many measures.
Yes exactly
I've met absurdly posh people in my time (and worldwide, as well as the UK). Roughly half my best friends are now centi-millionaires, with one billionaire blah blah blah
About ten years ago I noticed that when I explained my life, and experiences, to normal bog-standad posh English people - the Toppings and StillWaters of this world - they would get quite agitated, in a weird way. Then I realised that they couldn't put me in a "social class" box which made them feel superior. "What, you've never done a proper day's work in your life?" "You literally travel the world in luxury for free?" "And you bought your house by writing a book?"
They would often revert - if insecure - to remarks about clothing, or schooling, or whatever (cf Topping on interior decoration). It was a search for a way to feel better when in truth they felt a tiny bit inadequate. Like seeking a toe-hold on a slippery cliff. When most of their self-identity was embodied in their self-perceived poshness, here I was challenging all that and perhaps making them feel the looming drop beneath
If it's any consolation to these flannelled fools, I feel the same if I meet an artist who has made it spectacularly in wealth AND esteem. I search for a reason why I am still better than them, I usually revert to my extravagant sex life and multiple near death experiences
But beneath all this self-romancing clobber you're a cliched reactionary old geezer muttering over his lamb chops and Daily Telegraph.
But there it is from the other end of the social spectrum, nonsense from someone who seeks to box me so it makes them feel better
I always read Kinabalu’s posts with an image of him in a nice Hampstead pub, placing his glass of Ruinart Blanc de Blancs down as he cackles and types a fake “man of the people” post whilst Jonty and Aemilia are shouting at him to get up and dance ironically to Come on Eileen with the ironic kids and then he places his Peaky Blinders cap on the table as he sashays over to the St Paul’s girls to give them a lecture on leftism, the politics first and if they aren’t interested in that then the album by leftfield. He is the perfect foil to you, me, all the righties here.
Get a room, boys.
Suite, darling, suite.
Shirley, one would retire to one of one’s more retiring and informal castles?
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
But think about all those freebie suits and shoes you could get.
But the politics of envy would kick in.
I'd get criticised for turning up to parliament or a constituency surgery wearing £700 Louis Vuitton shoes, £500 Turnbull & Asser shirt, and £3,500 bespoke suit, and that's me slumming it.
Edit - And I haven't even mentioned the watches.
How the heck are you spending £500 on T&A? My shirts are only £165 from Hilditch & Key and that’s a far better brand
Mine are Ben Sherman, and the sale at that.
It reminds me of the joke about 2 Russian oligarchs:
Oligarch one: Hey, Boris, get a load of my new jacket, it cost $2000
Oligarch two: That's nothing Vanya, I know where you can get the exact same jacket for $5000.
I have precisely one H&K shirt… most of mine are Hawes & Curtis at £100 for 4…
I shall ask the butler to ask the man who does the accounts what he pays the tailors.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Alan Clarke’s quote is sophisticated conversationalism, or the idea that every tier looks down on the one directly below?
I’d say the latter is absolutely the case. As is the reverse: every tier in society most ardently resents the tier directly above them.
For an example of looking down, take the instructive case of the upper-upper-middle Topping decrying the interior decor of the mid-upper-middle Leon yesterday. The perfectly chosen words “it’s not even Elephant’s breath”. For an example of proximate upwards resentment listen to any Tory moaning about smashed avocado and latte supping.
In both cases there is the perfect mixture of class warfare and class betrayal.
Further, noblesse oblige and its modern exemplar (affected upper-middle concern for the WWC) only operates with a gap of several tiers. You don’t see Sainsburys shoppers expressing sympathy for the more gamey opinions of Tesco shoppers.
I object! It is much subtler than that. I went to a comprehensive, and my paternal grandfather was a chippy in a tinmine, and my Mum was very working class, and my maternal grandmother was slave labour - a bal maiden, age 10 - almost below working class
My proximate origins are very proletarian, and yet I have - to be frank - the life experiences and outlook of someone exceptionally uppper class, and not British at all. This is what annoys classic PB Anglo poshos like @StillWaters and @TOPPING
In some obscure way they cannot quite place, I outrank them. They can't understand it, and they dislike it
I've encountered this elsewhere, FWIW, not just on PB
I understand this thought process, when I was at school I was from a set a lot of my peers couldn’t get their heads around. I hadn’t been to one of the traditional feeder prep schools to school (all of us Jersey chaps were eyed with suspicion), wasn’t from the UK but also wasn’t “foreign”. I had more money than a huge chunk of them, but had a different outlook. I was at a co-Ed prep school so had girl friends at neighbouring girls boarding school from prep school whereas girls were a mystery to most, my parents backgrounds were confusing as they didn’t understand why they hadn’t just done what their parents were doing with their backgrounds and living where they “should”. There is nothing as confusing to English people as people who don’t fit into a box. But then I consider myself culturally and proudly English even though I’m not on many measures.
Yes exactly
I've met absurdly posh people in my time (and worldwide, as well as the UK). Roughly half my best friends are now centi-millionaires, with one billionaire blah blah blah
About ten years ago I noticed that when I explained my life, and experiences, to normal bog-standad posh English people - the Toppings and StillWaters of this world - they would get quite agitated, in a weird way. Then I realised that they couldn't put me in a "social class" box which made them feel superior. "What, you've never done a proper day's work in your life?" "You literally travel the world in luxury for free?" "And you bought your house by writing a book?"
They would often revert - if insecure - to remarks about clothing, or schooling, or whatever (cf Topping on interior decoration). It was a search for a way to feel better when in truth they felt a tiny bit inadequate. Like seeking a toe-hold on a slippery cliff. When most of their self-identity was embodied in their self-perceived poshness, here I was challenging all that and perhaps making them feel the looming drop beneath
If it's any consolation to these flannelled fools, I feel the same if I meet an artist who has made it spectacularly in wealth AND esteem. I search for a reason why I am still better than them, I usually revert to my extravagant sex life and multiple near death experiences
But beneath all this self-romancing clobber you're a cliched reactionary old geezer muttering over his lamb chops and Daily Telegraph.
But there it is from the other end of the social spectrum, nonsense from someone who seeks to box me so it makes them feel better
I always read Kinabalu’s posts with an image of him in a nice Hampstead pub, placing his glass of Ruinart Blanc de Blancs down as he cackles and types a fake “man of the people” post whilst Jonty and Aemilia are shouting at him to get up and dance ironically to Come on Eileen with the ironic kids and then he places his Peaky Blinders cap on the table as he sashays over to the St Paul’s girls to give them a lecture on leftism, the politics first and if they aren’t interested in that then the album by leftfield. He is the perfect foil to you, me, all the righties here.
Get a room, boys.
Suite, darling, suite.
Shirley, one would retire to one of one’s more retiring and informal castles?
It’s a secret dirty affair so we can’t go back to ours.
To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .
This country has lost its mind .
An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.
Yvette Cooper is the one wasting police time . A hysterical over reaction to what was criminal damage not terrorism .
Under the law passed by Tony Blair inflicting serious criminal damage in an attempt to force political changes you can't get via the ballot box is terrorism.
Like many laws passed by that authoritarian awful leader I'd love to see it repealed, but your upset that the rule of law is being upheld on these terrorists is amusing.
If you want political change then seek it via the ballot box, or non-violent protest. PAs violent actions absolutely were terrorism under our laws.
The vast majority of the public will not see that as terrorism . And strangely questions as to why they were even able to get that close to the military planes seems to have been ignored . What sort of poxy security was in place ?
Then the vast majority of people can vote to change the law.
Under the law passed by Tony Blair a quarter of a century ago, it is terrorism.
Should the rule of law not apply here?
You seem very happy to want the rule of law applied in the UK but seem to ignore it when it comes to international law .
You're too stupid to know the 2 things are not the same.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Thing is though HYUFD, even if Russia managed to pile into Ukraine, they would be left with an Afghanistan situation for potentially decades. Ukrainians wouldn’t just say “it’s a fair cop, we’re Russian now”, it would be an ongoing brutal bloodletting backed by weapons and intelligence from Europe. Might not be as good as having US backing but Russia cannot indefinitely take that so it’s in their interests for a settlement.
Am whilst Ukraine didn’t defeat Putin, Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine even with his paper advantages. They won’t roll over.
No but if Putin lost in Ukraine and withdrew completely he knows he would soon be toppled as President now after such a humiliation for Russia, so he cannot back down either
Then it comes to the question of what the power elite in Russia care more about, “winning” a war that they can anyway spin to the population however they wish, the fact that how badly it has gone anyway hasn’t moved the dial with the population shows that this isn’t an issue. Or do they want access to global business and money markets more.
If Putin can tell the power brokers, who are moneyed gangsters, “you can have your yachts, villas and bank accounts back but we have to make a fudge and declare it a victory” which do you think they will go for?
The elite are fat, they aren’t soldiers, the war would have been great if they had rolled over Ukraine but frankly it’s messing with their Daughters’ insta trips to Mykonos and their wives shopping in London and Paris.
As long as they have something they can, with the help of a compliant media, spin as a great victory, Putin’s internal enemies get to go back to making money.
Which still requires occupation of part of Ukraine even then, complete withdrawal could never be spun as a victory however hard the spinning
Also it assumes that Ukraine is the only demand that Putin has against the international system, which is not the case. The more serious problem is that Putin is riding the tiger: if the war stops, he is overthrown pretty much straight away. So for the survival of his regime and the longer term foreign policy direction of Russia the war, however futile and brutal, must continue. The only way that a stable peace can be achieved is that Russia is defeated and Putin removed.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Well the facts- massive increases in defence spending, the return of conscription and huge multi billion Euro assistance programs- suggest that they are notvas decadent as you seem to think. European voters recognise that they will have to maintain these policies until Russia (and Trump) ceases to be a threat.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
But think about all those freebie suits and shoes you could get.
But the politics of envy would kick in.
I'd get criticised for turning up to parliament or a constituency surgery wearing £700 Louis Vuitton shoes, £500 Turnbull & Asser shirt, and £3,500 bespoke suit, and that's me slumming it.
Edit - And I haven't even mentioned the watches.
How the heck are you spending £500 on T&A? My shirts are only £165 from Hilditch & Key and that’s a far better brand
Mine are Ben Sherman, and the sale at that.
It reminds me of the joke about 2 Russian oligarchs:
Oligarch one: Hey, Boris, get a load of my new jacket, it cost $2000
Oligarch two: That's nothing Vanya, I know where you can get the exact same jacket for $5000.
I have precisely one H&K shirt… most of mine are Hawes & Curtis at £100 for 4…
My shits are from Next. They were really good quality button-down Oxfords, with thick cotton. They don't make them any more. I get them patched when the elbows wear out.
The pool of potential future defectors from Labour is massively skewed. Just 5% of still Labour-ers see Reform as a potential vote, while around half are open to voting LD or Green. Even among Labour to DKs, twice as many would consider LD or Grns than Reform.
(1.8 million Lab voters have moved to LD or Green, compared to 700 000 to Reform. The threat to Labour is not from direct switchers to Reform, but rather its left flank)
Labour to Reform UK defectors are hugely skewed in two ways that is contrary to certain myths about them - they are disproportionately 2019 Conservatives (not forever red Labourites) and much more Scottish than average Labour voter. Probably some overlap here too.
(So the Scottish Reform surge seems to be from SLAB, and indirectly from 2019 SCon, showing the flexibility of the Scottish Unionist vote.)
And for the Tories it looks grim.
Demographics also continue to work against them. 2.8% of their 2024 coalition have already died, a rate unlike any other party in absolute or relative terms. The Tories are also not attracting any new voters (~25k first time voters), not much more than the SNP and PC (~15k).
'Evening pb. Just fulfilled a long held ambition: accompanied by my oldest daughter, I got the train to Penrith, then walked (yesterday) from Penrith to Troutbeck across High Street - staying last night at the Mortal Man - then today walked from Troutbeck over Wansfell Pike to Ambleside and then on to Windermere, getting the train back from Windermere. 50km in two days. Others have done more I'm sure but it's more than I've ever managed before (and the first day's 30km was more than I've ever managed in a day). Also fulfilled the side ambitions of seeing Haweswater (the one Lake District lake that has eluded me up until now), learning cribbage (daughter and I learned it last night) and using the Windermere-Oxenholme line (and wondering whether @Sunil_Prasannan had been on this line - but of course he has! - the latter was gratifyingly well-used). My feet are throbbing, but I feel elated.
I'm really glad you enjoyed it.
Such experiences are priceless, and will be a great memory and a great habit for you daughter.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
But think about all those freebie suits and shoes you could get.
But the politics of envy would kick in.
I'd get criticised for turning up to parliament or a constituency surgery wearing £700 Louis Vuitton shoes, £500 Turnbull & Asser shirt, and £3,500 bespoke suit, and that's me slumming it.
Edit - And I haven't even mentioned the watches.
How the heck are you spending £500 on T&A? My shirts are only £165 from Hilditch & Key and that’s a far better brand
Mine are Ben Sherman, and the sale at that.
It reminds me of the joke about 2 Russian oligarchs:
Oligarch one: Hey, Boris, get a load of my new jacket, it cost $2000
Oligarch two: That's nothing Vanya, I know where you can get the exact same jacket for $5000.
I have precisely one H&K shirt… most of mine are Hawes & Curtis at £100 for 4…
My shits are from Next. They were really good quality button-down Oxfords, with thick cotton. They don't make them any more. I get them patched when the elbows wear out.
Lands End sell decent button-down oxfords, at decent prices. Odd, because much of the rest of their catalog is cheap tat.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Well the facts- massive increases in defence spending, the return of conscription and huge multi billion Euro assistance programs- suggest that they are notvas decadent as you seem to think. European voters recognise that they will have to maintain these policies until Russia (and Trump) ceases to be a threat.
Witkoff’s proposal is not a runner, in any case.
Ukraine would have to give up several fair-sized towns and evacuate their populations, from Donetsk Oblast. And Russia would have to give up Melitopol and sacrifice the land bridge connecting Crimea to the rest of Russian-seized territory.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Well the facts- massive increases in defence spending, the return of conscription and huge multi billion Euro assistance programs- suggest that they are notvas decadent as you seem to think. European voters recognise that they will have to maintain these policies until Russia (and Trump) ceases to be a threat.
Witkoff’s proposal is not a runner, in any case.
Ukraine would have to give up several fair-sized towns and evacuate their populations, from Donetsk Oblast. And Russia would have to give up Melitopol and sacrifice the land bridge connecting Crimea to the rest of Russian-seized territory.
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
'Evening pb. Just fulfilled a long held ambition: accompanied by my oldest daughter, I got the train to Penrith, then walked (yesterday) from Penrith to Troutbeck across High Street - staying last night at the Mortal Man - then today walked from Troutbeck over Wansfell Pike to Ambleside and then on to Windermere, getting the train back from Windermere. 50km in two days. Others have done more I'm sure but it's more than I've ever managed before (and the first day's 30km was more than I've ever managed in a day). Also fulfilled the side ambitions of seeing Haweswater (the one Lake District lake that has eluded me up until now), learning cribbage (daughter and I learned it last night) and using the Windermere-Oxenholme line (and wondering whether @Sunil_Prasannan had been on this line - but of course he has! - the latter was gratifyingly well-used). My feet are throbbing, but I feel elated.
I'm really glad you enjoyed it.
Such experiences are priceless, and will be a great memory and a great habit for you daughter.
Don't think I recall any barriers - though I confess navigation got a little confused at each end! It did seem remarkable that you could (in theory) get a horseup there, though I did see a handful of cyclists (mostly on ebikes). Interesting though that it's the route of a Roman Road - presumably this was the main route in those days.
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
It's pretty sick that that headline in the Times (which may or may not be down to Janice Turner) uses 'vast company profits' pejoratively.
Indeed. God forbid a company should make profits! This is Britain after all
How much of their profits are coming from UK customers? Bet365 are alleged that their "vast company profits" come mostly from Asia.
Meanwhile Denise Coates alone pays £300m or £400m a year in income tax.
Has the government actually thought through what they might propose? I think that’s a rhetorical question.
Bet365 voluntarily left China this year. I can only think of two good reasons, they are thinking of floating or having regulatory issues over their grey market betting, possibly in the US.
One thing that map illustrates is just how urbanised the rump Labour vote is
Not sure that it does.
This is under FPTP, with the leading party (Reform) on 31%. It's the split opposition that creates this map. A map of second places might be much less urban for Labour.
This is a map of second places from last year. Lots of red in the shires:
For reasons that are beyond me my keyboard (including the on-screen keyboard) has switched around the @ and " symbols. Not the end of the world, but rather odd.
Edited: and the date format has been changed to the moronic American system.
One thing that map illustrates is just how urbanised the rump Labour vote is
Not sure that it does.
This is under FPTP, with the leading party (Reform) on 31%. It's the split opposition that creates this map. A map of second places might be much less urban for Labour.
This is a map of second places from last year. Lots of red in the shires:
So tech geeks, is there a way with AI that we could have PB where every poster can record a few key words so AI translates posts into speeach based on a selection of sentences and posts can be voice notes so you could set it, when you are doing other things to just voice the posts. Like hearing a conversation in a pub you can dip into bit actually based on our voices and personalities. I want to hear MalcolmG in his finest Scottish roar and Kinabalu’s finest RP when they pronounce their views on here.
A nice idea, but you'd have to be really subtle. Trouble is, British people are so sensitive to social nuance, including accents.
Take, for instance, Scots. For Malky alone, if you haven't met him already, you need to set your hypothetical babel fish module to allow for Scottish RP aka Standard Scottish English (West Central variety), demotic Glaswegian, and rustic Ayrshire just to provide for the most obvious possibilities; ditto the east coast and Borders versions of those for me. And that's assuming we haven't moved in from the Doric northeast or the Gàidhealtachd.
For reasons that are beyond me my keyboard (including the on-screen keyboard) has switched around the @ and " symbols. Not the end of the world, but rather odd.
Edited: and the date format has been changed to the moronic American system.
Sounds like the keyboard setting on your computer has been changed. Probably from EN-UK to EN-US.
The classic cause is that you accidentally hit the two keys that are a short cut.
For reasons that are beyond me my keyboard (including the on-screen keyboard) has switched around the @ and " symbols. Not the end of the world, but rather odd.
Edited: and the date format has been changed to the moronic American system.
Sounds like the keyboard setting on your computer has been changed. Probably from EN-UK to EN-US.
The classic cause is that you accidentally hit the two keys that are a short cut.
What operating system are you using?
Windows 11.
The dating system's back to normal. Not sure about changing the keyboard. To be fair, it's not the end of the world, but rather odd.
This is far less annoying than the first time I accidentally pressed the 'insert' key and had text overwriting what went before...
One thing that map illustrates is just how urbanised the rump Labour vote is
Not sure that it does.
This is under FPTP, with the leading party (Reform) on 31%. It's the split opposition that creates this map. A map of second places might be much less urban for Labour.
This is a map of second places from last year. Lots of red in the shires:
Great Map. The one on population shows just how skewed the UK is to the South East.
Yes, it also shows how urban the Green vote is. Their second places are in East London, and a lot of urban seats across England.
Of course it doesn't show how close that second place was, but potentially Polanski might do quite well in a number of these, assuming he is the new leader.
I also suspect that tactical voting will prevent the Reform landslide in the map above, perhaps looking more like their current seats and the second places.
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
For reasons that are beyond me my keyboard (including the on-screen keyboard) has switched around the @ and " symbols. Not the end of the world, but rather odd.
Edited: and the date format has been changed to the moronic American system.
Sounds like the keyboard setting on your computer has been changed. Probably from EN-UK to EN-US.
The classic cause is that you accidentally hit the two keys that are a short cut.
What operating system are you using?
If you press long on the he space bar you need the options to change back to eng-uk
The pool of potential future defectors from Labour is massively skewed. Just 5% of still Labour-ers see Reform as a potential vote, while around half are open to voting LD or Green. Even among Labour to DKs, twice as many would consider LD or Grns than Reform.
(1.8 million Lab voters have moved to LD or Green, compared to 700 000 to Reform. The threat to Labour is not from direct switchers to Reform, but rather its left flank)
Labour to Reform UK defectors are hugely skewed in two ways that is contrary to certain myths about them - they are disproportionately 2019 Conservatives (not forever red Labourites) and much more Scottish than average Labour voter. Probably some overlap here too.
(So the Scottish Reform surge seems to be from SLAB, and indirectly from 2019 SCon, showing the flexibility of the Scottish Unionist vote.)
And for the Tories it looks grim.
Demographics also continue to work against them. 2.8% of their 2024 coalition have already died, a rate unlike any other party in absolute or relative terms. The Tories are also not attracting any new voters (~25k first time voters), not much more than the SNP and PC (~15k).
Thanks for this Foxy.
But isn't Dylan's analysis that the Labour to Reform voters are disproportionately effective under FPTP, as Reform are now Labour’s primary opposition (as Lab acknowledge). He equates a Lab to Reform vote as 'worth' twice as much as a Lab to Grn/Lib which seems to be the 'nugget ' he emphasises.
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Even before recent mooted increases in expenditure, European NATO nations spent $380bn on military expenditure in 2024. That excludes the USA, merely European NATO nations.
Russia spent $149bn on its military.
European nations (including the UK) collectively outspend Russia by over 2.5 to 1.
Furthermore that represented merely 2.2% of European GDP versus 7.1% of Russian GDP, over 19% of Russian governmental expenditure. Not only does Europe have deeper pockets than Russia, but we have more room to move too.
That is why Russia is desperate to manipulate America into ending the war and hoping Europe caves too. It is only a lack of self-belief that could stop us from standing up to Russia - with or without the Americans.
Russia also has more nuclear weapons than any other nation
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Well the facts- massive increases in defence spending, the return of conscription and huge multi billion Euro assistance programs- suggest that they are notvas decadent as you seem to think. European voters recognise that they will have to maintain these policies until Russia (and Trump) ceases to be a threat.
Witkoff’s proposal is not a runner, in any case.
Ukraine would have to give up several fair-sized towns and evacuate their populations, from Donetsk Oblast. And Russia would have to give up Melitopol and sacrifice the land bridge connecting Crimea to the rest of Russian-seized territory.
I'll bet Putin can hardly believe his luck at the clown show that is American diplomacy.
Biden and Obama may have been weak and complacent when it came to Russia and much else but they managed to preserve at least a semblance of a united front with the Europeans and inflict a bit of damage on the Russians.
Trump and Witless Witkoff are so completely erratic, incompetent and desperate for any kind of deal that there's no telling what they are up to. Even David Lammy would probably do a slightly better job.
Such a tragedy for the brave Ukrainians having to be polite to that shower while their best men die in trenches.
The pool of potential future defectors from Labour is massively skewed. Just 5% of still Labour-ers see Reform as a potential vote, while around half are open to voting LD or Green. Even among Labour to DKs, twice as many would consider LD or Grns than Reform.
(1.8 million Lab voters have moved to LD or Green, compared to 700 000 to Reform. The threat to Labour is not from direct switchers to Reform, but rather its left flank)
Labour to Reform UK defectors are hugely skewed in two ways that is contrary to certain myths about them - they are disproportionately 2019 Conservatives (not forever red Labourites) and much more Scottish than average Labour voter. Probably some overlap here too.
(So the Scottish Reform surge seems to be from SLAB, and indirectly from 2019 SCon, showing the flexibility of the Scottish Unionist vote.)
And for the Tories it looks grim.
Demographics also continue to work against them. 2.8% of their 2024 coalition have already died, a rate unlike any other party in absolute or relative terms. The Tories are also not attracting any new voters (~25k first time voters), not much more than the SNP and PC (~15k).
Some polls have showed Kemi making gains with 18 to 24s.
In fact the only age group the Tories now lead Reform is the youngest 18 to 24 age group. Reform even lead with pensioners overall with the Tories second
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Even before recent mooted increases in expenditure, European NATO nations spent $380bn on military expenditure in 2024. That excludes the USA, merely European NATO nations.
Russia spent $149bn on its military.
European nations (including the UK) collectively outspend Russia by over 2.5 to 1.
Furthermore that represented merely 2.2% of European GDP versus 7.1% of Russian GDP, over 19% of Russian governmental expenditure. Not only does Europe have deeper pockets than Russia, but we have more room to move too.
That is why Russia is desperate to manipulate America into ending the war and hoping Europe caves too. It is only a lack of self-belief that could stop us from standing up to Russia - with or without the Americans.
Russia also has more nuclear weapons than any other nation
The number of functioning delivery systems is far less.
They’ve had significant problems just keeping the existing systems going, let alone developing new ones.
To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .
This country has lost its mind .
An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.
Yvette Cooper is the one wasting police time . A hysterical over reaction to what was criminal damage not terrorism .
Under the law passed by Tony Blair inflicting serious criminal damage in an attempt to force political changes you can't get via the ballot box is terrorism.
Like many laws passed by that authoritarian awful leader I'd love to see it repealed, but your upset that the rule of law is being upheld on these terrorists is amusing.
If you want political change then seek it via the ballot box, or non-violent protest. PAs violent actions absolutely were terrorism under our laws.
The vast majority of the public will not see that as terrorism . And strangely questions as to why they were even able to get that close to the military planes seems to have been ignored . What sort of poxy security was in place ?
Then the vast majority of people can vote to change the law.
Under the law passed by Tony Blair a quarter of a century ago, it is terrorism.
Should the rule of law not apply here?
You seem very happy to want the rule of law applied in the UK but seem to ignore it when it comes to international law .
You're too stupid to know the 2 things are not the same.
I’m well aware of the differences . My point stands , it’s a shame you chose to just become insulting which reflects poorly on you !
Penny East, the new chief executive of the Fawcett Society, the UK’s leading charity campaigning for women’s rights and gender equality, said the brand’s decision to collaborate with an OnlyFans star broke a new threshold in the mainstreaming of the controversial website and its explicit content, warranting “legitimate concern
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Even before recent mooted increases in expenditure, European NATO nations spent $380bn on military expenditure in 2024. That excludes the USA, merely European NATO nations.
Russia spent $149bn on its military.
European nations (including the UK) collectively outspend Russia by over 2.5 to 1.
Furthermore that represented merely 2.2% of European GDP versus 7.1% of Russian GDP, over 19% of Russian governmental expenditure. Not only does Europe have deeper pockets than Russia, but we have more room to move too.
That is why Russia is desperate to manipulate America into ending the war and hoping Europe caves too. It is only a lack of self-belief that could stop us from standing up to Russia - with or without the Americans.
Russia also has more nuclear weapons than any other nation
The number of functioning delivery systems is far less.
They’ve had significant problems just keeping the existing systems going, let alone developing new ones.
When it comes to nuclear weapons, only 10 per cent going bang is still too many.
There is, however, the suspicion this is what President Trump alluded to when allowing himself to be goaded by Medvedev into noisily moving American submarines closer – ours are properly maintained; are yours?
To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .
This country has lost its mind .
An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.
Yvette Cooper is the one wasting police time . A hysterical over reaction to what was criminal damage not terrorism .
Under the law passed by Tony Blair inflicting serious criminal damage in an attempt to force political changes you can't get via the ballot box is terrorism.
Like many laws passed by that authoritarian awful leader I'd love to see it repealed, but your upset that the rule of law is being upheld on these terrorists is amusing.
If you want political change then seek it via the ballot box, or non-violent protest. PAs violent actions absolutely were terrorism under our laws.
The vast majority of the public will not see that as terrorism . And strangely questions as to why they were even able to get that close to the military planes seems to have been ignored . What sort of poxy security was in place ?
Then the vast majority of people can vote to change the law.
Under the law passed by Tony Blair a quarter of a century ago, it is terrorism.
Should the rule of law not apply here?
You seem very happy to want the rule of law applied in the UK but seem to ignore it when it comes to international law .
You're too stupid to know the 2 things are not the same.
I’m well aware of the differences . My point stands , it’s a shame you chose to just become insulting which reflects poorly on you !
The point doesn't stand. I think pots and black kettles apply.
Penny East, the new chief executive of the Fawcett Society, the UK’s leading charity campaigning for women’s rights and gender equality, said the brand’s decision to collaborate with an OnlyFans star broke a new threshold in the mainstreaming of the controversial website and its explicit content, warranting “legitimate concern
Feminism for posh people hates sex workers, glamour models and anything not involving glass ceilings being smashed. That said, lord knows what L'Oreal's (or Urban Decay's) marketing director was thinking about.
To see an 89 year old arrested for holding a banner . At a time when the justice system is close to collapse we have a spectacle where the police are rounding up hundreds of people including a blind man in a wheelchair .
This country has lost its mind .
An alternative view is that these people are deliberately wasting police time when the police could be doing something else. There are many legal ways to protest about what is happening in Gaza. You can also legally protest about the heavy handed application of terrorism laws in this specific case. They know exactly what they are doing.
Yvette Cooper is the one wasting police time . A hysterical over reaction to what was criminal damage not terrorism .
Under the law passed by Tony Blair inflicting serious criminal damage in an attempt to force political changes you can't get via the ballot box is terrorism.
Like many laws passed by that authoritarian awful leader I'd love to see it repealed, but your upset that the rule of law is being upheld on these terrorists is amusing.
If you want political change then seek it via the ballot box, or non-violent protest. PAs violent actions absolutely were terrorism under our laws.
The vast majority of the public will not see that as terrorism . And strangely questions as to why they were even able to get that close to the military planes seems to have been ignored . What sort of poxy security was in place ?
Then the vast majority of people can vote to change the law.
Under the law passed by Tony Blair a quarter of a century ago, it is terrorism.
Should the rule of law not apply here?
You seem very happy to want the rule of law applied in the UK but seem to ignore it when it comes to international law .
You're too stupid to know the 2 things are not the same.
I’m well aware of the differences . My point stands , it’s a shame you chose to just become insulting which reflects poorly on you !
The point doesn't stand. I think pots and black kettles apply.
Surely if you want laws to be respected then you accept international law although much more difficult to enforce is there for a reason . Anyway we won’t agree so best to move on .
Penny East, the new chief executive of the Fawcett Society, the UK’s leading charity campaigning for women’s rights and gender equality, said the brand’s decision to collaborate with an OnlyFans star broke a new threshold in the mainstreaming of the controversial website and its explicit content, warranting “legitimate concern
Feminism for posh people hates sex workers, glamour models and anything not involving glass ceilings being smashed. That said, lord knows what L'Oreal's (or Urban Decay's) marketing director was thinking about.
Its difficult keeping up with all the strands of feminism. It wasn't long ago when we were asked to respect sex workers and that the bad in the industry was down to men / male dominated companies who controlled them. Now they have OnlyFans, which actually has a much more generous payout structure than the likes of being a YouTube creator, they are now bad people?
The people I went to school with wouldn’t have invited Alan Clark to tea - too much social climbing.
They were just fine inviting my parents (university lecturer and school teacher) to tea.
One suspects this upset Alan Clark.
What on earth does this mean? How did the hypothetical and completely made up scenario that some people you went to school with 'wouldn't have invited' someone to tea upset that person? Did it come to him in a dream?
Penny East, the new chief executive of the Fawcett Society, the UK’s leading charity campaigning for women’s rights and gender equality, said the brand’s decision to collaborate with an OnlyFans star broke a new threshold in the mainstreaming of the controversial website and its explicit content, warranting “legitimate concern
Feminism for posh people hates sex workers, glamour models and anything not involving glass ceilings being smashed. That said, lord knows what L'Oreal's (or Urban Decay's) marketing director was thinking about.
Its difficult keeping up with all the strands of feminism. It wasn't long ago when we were asked to respect sex workers and that the bad in the industry was down to men / male dominated companies who controlled them. Now they have OnlyFans, which actually has a much more generous payout structure than the likes of being a YouTube creator, they are now bad people?
It's almost like some feminists may believe different things from others. crazy I know
'Evening pb. Just fulfilled a long held ambition: accompanied by my oldest daughter, I got the train to Penrith, then walked (yesterday) from Penrith to Troutbeck across High Street - staying last night at the Mortal Man - then today walked from Troutbeck over Wansfell Pike to Ambleside and then on to Windermere, getting the train back from Windermere. 50km in two days. Others have done more I'm sure but it's more than I've ever managed before (and the first day's 30km was more than I've ever managed in a day). Also fulfilled the side ambitions of seeing Haweswater (the one Lake District lake that has eluded me up until now), learning cribbage (daughter and I learned it last night) and using the Windermere-Oxenholme line (and wondering whether @Sunil_Prasannan had been on this line - but of course he has! - the latter was gratifyingly well-used). My feet are throbbing, but I feel elated.
I'm really glad you enjoyed it.
Such experiences are priceless, and will be a great memory and a great habit for you daughter.
Don't think I recall any barriers - though I confess navigation got a little confused at each end! It did seem remarkable that you could (in theory) get a horseup there, though I did see a handful of cyclists (mostly on ebikes). Interesting though that it's the route of a Roman Road - presumably this was the main route in those days.
I still think that any Roman Road should be a public footpath by historic usage !
Statement by President Macron, Prime Minister Meloni, Chancellor Merz, Prime Minister Tusk, Prime Minister Starmer, President von der Leyen and President Stubb on Peace for Ukraine ahead of President Trump’s planned meeting with President Putin
We welcome President Trump’s work to stop the killing in Ukraine, end the Russian Federation’s war of aggression, and achieve just and lasting peace and security for Ukraine. We are convinced that only an approach that combines active diplomacy, support to Ukraine and pressure on the Russian Federation to end their illegal war can succeed. We stand ready to support this work diplomatically as well as by upholding our substantive military and financial support to Ukraine, including through the work of the Coalition of the Willing, and by upholding and imposing restrictive measures against the Russian Federation. We share the conviction that a diplomatic solution must protect Ukraine’s and Europe’s vital security interests. We agree that these vital interests include the need for robust and credible security guarantees that enable Ukraine to effectively defend its sovereignty and territorial integrity. Ukraine has the freedom of choice over its own destiny. Meaningful negotiations can only take place in the context of a ceasefire or reduction of hostilities. The path to peace in Ukraine cannot be decided without Ukraine. We remain committed to the principle that international borders must not be changed by force. The current line of contact should be the starting point of negotiations. We reiterate that Russia’s unprovoked and illegal invasion of Ukraine is a flagrant violation of the UN Charter, the Helsinki Final Act, the Budapest Memorandum, and successive Russian commitments. We underline our unwavering commitment to Ukraine’s sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity. We continue to stand firmly by the side of Ukraine. We are united as Europeans and determined to jointly promote our interests. And we will continue to cooperate closely with President Trump and with the United States of America, and with President Zelenskyy and the people of Ukraine, for a peace in Ukraine that protects our vital security interests.
ENDS
What a load of waffly bollocks. I’m sure the people of Luhansk and Donetsk will feel a whole lot safer reading that. The current line of contact should not be the starting point of negotiations. The pre war boundary should be. Then they can negotiate about handing Crimea back to Ukraine, and about reparations to Ukraine.
And the chances of Putin agreeing to that...less than zero
Which is why we need to support Ukraine until Putin is defeated.
Fat chance of that anytime soon, Ukraine couldn't even defeat Putin and force the Russians out of Ukraine when they had military aid from the US via Biden let alone now Trump is withdrawing US military aid to Zelensky
Russia is the invader not Ukraine and its much tougher to maintain an invasion than it is to defend your homeland.
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
Does it? European voters certainly aren't willing to cut public services and welfare funding to send missiles to Ukraine and Putin knows it.
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
Even before recent mooted increases in expenditure, European NATO nations spent $380bn on military expenditure in 2024. That excludes the USA, merely European NATO nations.
Russia spent $149bn on its military.
European nations (including the UK) collectively outspend Russia by over 2.5 to 1.
Furthermore that represented merely 2.2% of European GDP versus 7.1% of Russian GDP, over 19% of Russian governmental expenditure. Not only does Europe have deeper pockets than Russia, but we have more room to move too.
That is why Russia is desperate to manipulate America into ending the war and hoping Europe caves too. It is only a lack of self-belief that could stop us from standing up to Russia - with or without the Americans.
Russia also has more nuclear weapons than any other nation
The number of functioning delivery systems is far less.
They’ve had significant problems just keeping the existing systems going, let alone developing new ones.
Megaton range hydrogen weapons require a decent amount of tritium, which is extremely expensive- roughly $30,000 per gram. If you were, for example, a moderately corrupt Russian General, the temptation of not renewing the extremely expensive tritium in the warheads according to the maintenance schedule and instead taking your mistress on holiday to the Gulf is probably a no brainer.
Comments
I support liberal democracy, neither Nazi Germany nor ECHR-approved (until 2020) Russia were or are democracies.
Sacrificing democracy in the name of international law is no more appropriate than any other reason to end democracy.
The law should be determined by Parliament in free and fair elections, and no Parliament should ever bind its successors. Any law, including international ones, should be up for debate come election time if the people want change.
There's much more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_o4omd8T5c
" Nobody's Fault But Mine - Blind Willie Johnson " -- ~1927. It still somewhat boggles my mind that that's almost a century ago. I have mp3's of wax/edison cylinders from even before then.
I still think the recording of sound is one of our greatest modern achievements. I hope one day those weird looping 'recordings' from the 1800s can be recovered by some magic AI elf. There are some very early recordings recovered all the same :
https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/latest/oldest-recordings/
But there are tantalising earlier ones that would be magical to hear.
You were never meant to know about the court service IT bug" (£)
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/you-were-never-meant-to-know-about-the-court-service-it-bug
We have an example here with @TSE - he's still the striving lower class migrant but with really nice shirts. And good luck to him
It's this energy which powers Britain today
Just ask America in Afghanistan, or Russia there too.
Russia is bleeding men and money and Europe has deeper pockets than Russia with or without America. Even if America pulls out of supporting Ukraine, we can and should step up to the plate until Putin is defeated.
If you are born upper class you never need to strive for anything, you are born upper class and will be so your entire life and can even look down your nose at self made billionaires (even if you sometimes have to marry your daughters off to a wealthy American commoner from time to time to top up the family finances)
Am whilst Ukraine didn’t defeat Putin, Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine even with his paper advantages. They won’t roll over.
Joking
They might just about fund maintaining the status quo but that is it
If Putin can tell the power brokers, who are moneyed gangsters, “you can have your yachts, villas and bank accounts back but we have to make a fudge and declare it a victory” which do you think they will go for?
The elite are fat, they aren’t soldiers, the war would have been great if they had rolled over Ukraine but frankly it’s messing with their Daughters’ insta trips to Mykonos and their wives shopping in London and Paris.
As long as they have something they can, with the help of a compliant media, spin as a great victory, Putin’s internal enemies get to go back to making money.
So I can prove I descend from royalty (as is true of all of us, it’s just rarely provable, as @IanB2 trenchantly and correctly pointed out to me at the time)
One part of this weirdness is that I know my great great great great grandparents worked, at all hours, from aged 10, in the dangerous tin mines that THEIR great great great grandparents - Anglo-Norman-Cornish nobility - used to own
My undersea mining ancestors would not have been aware of this tremendous irony. But it is the case
So it’s all ridiculous in the end, albeit great material for novelists and snobs
Russia spent $149bn on its military.
European nations (including the UK) collectively outspend Russia by over 2.5 to 1.
Furthermore that represented merely 2.2% of European GDP versus 7.1% of Russian GDP, over 19% of Russian governmental expenditure. Not only does Europe have deeper pockets than Russia, but we have more room to move too.
That is why Russia is desperate to manipulate America into ending the war and hoping Europe caves too. It is only a lack of self-belief that could stop us from standing up to Russia - with or without the Americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Butcher
Reform 31% (-1)
Labour 22% (-3)
Tories 17% (=)
Lib Dems 13% (=)
Greens 9% (+1)
https://x.com/PolliticoUK/status/1954257986299244579
https://xcancel.com/LeftieStats/status/1954270518670164280#m
The only way that a stable peace can be achieved is that Russia is defeated and Putin removed.
https://bsky.app/profile/dylandifford.bsky.social/post/3lvy2ztfbu22p
There are a couple of interesting nuggets:
The pool of potential future defectors from Labour is massively skewed. Just 5% of still Labour-ers see Reform as a potential vote, while around half are open to voting LD or Green. Even among Labour to DKs, twice as many would consider LD or Grns than Reform.
(1.8 million Lab voters have moved to LD or Green, compared to 700 000 to Reform. The threat to Labour is not from direct switchers to Reform, but rather its left flank)
Labour to Reform UK defectors are hugely skewed in two ways that is contrary to certain myths about them - they are disproportionately 2019 Conservatives (not forever red Labourites) and much more Scottish than average Labour voter. Probably some overlap here too.
(So the Scottish Reform surge seems to be from SLAB, and indirectly from 2019 SCon, showing the flexibility of the Scottish Unionist vote.)
And for the Tories it looks grim.
Demographics also continue to work against them. 2.8% of their 2024 coalition have already died, a rate unlike any other party in absolute or relative terms. The Tories are also not attracting any new voters (~25k first time voters), not much more than the SNP and PC (~15k).
Such experiences are priceless, and will be a great memory and a great habit for you daughter.
Were there barriers on any of it
AIUI it's a bridleway, and here's a chap on a mountain bike (his fat bike):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtvwRL78xZs
Ukraine would have to give up several fair-sized towns and evacuate their populations, from Donetsk Oblast. And Russia would have to give up Melitopol and sacrifice the land bridge connecting Crimea to the rest of Russian-seized territory.
https://x.com/michaeldweiss/status/1954222900187164935
Has the government actually thought through what they might propose? I think that’s a rhetorical question.
Urban = Labour
South of Bham and naice = LDem
Scotland = SNP
Else = Reform
This is under FPTP, with the leading party (Reform) on 31%. It's the split opposition that creates this map. A map of second places might be much less urban for Labour.
This is a map of second places from last year. Lots of red in the shires:
https://worldmapper.org/maps/uk-general-election-2024-second-placed-parties/#&gid=1&pid=1
For reasons that are beyond me my keyboard (including the on-screen keyboard) has switched around the @ and " symbols. Not the end of the world, but rather odd.
Edited: and the date format has been changed to the moronic American system.
Take, for instance, Scots. For Malky alone, if you haven't met him already, you need to set your hypothetical babel fish module to allow for Scottish RP aka Standard Scottish English (West Central variety), demotic Glaswegian, and rustic Ayrshire just to provide for the most obvious possibilities; ditto the east coast and Borders versions of those for me. And that's assuming we haven't moved in from the Doric northeast or the Gàidhealtachd.
The classic cause is that you accidentally hit the two keys that are a short cut.
What operating system are you using?
The dating system's back to normal. Not sure about changing the keyboard. To be fair, it's not the end of the world, but rather odd.
This is far less annoying than the first time I accidentally pressed the 'insert' key and had text overwriting what went before...
Of course it doesn't show how close that second place was, but potentially Polanski might do quite well in a number of these, assuming he is the new leader.
I also suspect that tactical voting will prevent the Reform landslide in the map above, perhaps looking more like their current seats and the second places.
But isn't Dylan's analysis that the Labour to Reform voters are disproportionately effective under FPTP, as Reform are now Labour’s primary opposition (as Lab acknowledge). He equates a Lab to Reform vote as 'worth' twice as much as a Lab to Grn/Lib which seems to be the 'nugget ' he emphasises.
Biden and Obama may have been weak and complacent when it came to Russia and much else but they managed to preserve at least a semblance of a united front with the Europeans and inflict a bit of damage on the Russians.
Trump and Witless Witkoff are so completely erratic, incompetent and desperate for any kind of deal that there's no telling what they are up to. Even David Lammy would probably do a slightly better job.
Such a tragedy for the brave Ukrainians having to be polite to that shower while their best men die in trenches.
In fact the only age group the Tories now lead Reform is the youngest 18 to 24 age group. Reform even lead with pensioners overall with the Tories second
They’ve had significant problems just keeping the existing systems going, let alone developing new ones.
Penny East, the new chief executive of the Fawcett Society, the UK’s leading charity campaigning for women’s rights and gender equality, said the brand’s decision to collaborate with an OnlyFans star broke a new threshold in the mainstreaming of the controversial website and its explicit content, warranting “legitimate concern
https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2025/aug/09/loreal-hires-onlyfans-star-to-market-makeup-popular-with-teenagers
There is, however, the suspicion this is what President Trump alluded to when allowing himself to be goaded by Medvedev into noisily moving American submarines closer – ours are properly maintained; are yours?
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