Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
What about Welsh people who are not working class?
Asking for a friend.
I love all Welsh people, the Welsh rugby union team in recent months has given me so much material that I want to spend every waking moment with Welsh people.
Well you aren’t going to be sleeping around Welsh people, all that weird singing and moaning about the English.
No Welsh person would sleep with an English one unless there were no sheep around.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I mean its an absolute mystery why you weren't more popular with him. You had so many characteristics famously so loved by scousers.
The amusing thing is, so many Scousers do love me, all the mates I've gotten following Liverpool FC.
A lot of them are disparaging about 'Woolies' (aka Liverpool fans who aren't from Liverpool) but when they hear me talk about LFC, they know I am a true fan. I had them in stitches when I described one goal as 'Gary MacAllister's 44 yard better sex injury time free kick winner in the deby'.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I mean its an absolute mystery why you weren't more popular with him. You had so many characteristics famously so loved by scousers.
It is strange, I have loads of scouse friends who have no issue with my background or education. Mind you, I’ve never tried to marry their daughters.
Yes but unlike TSE you probably don't have a phone wallpaper of Margaret Thatcher or David Cameron?
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I mean its an absolute mystery why you weren't more popular with him. You had so many characteristics famously so loved by scousers.
It is strange, I have loads of scouse friends who have no issue with my background or education. Mind you, I’ve never tried to marry their daughters.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
What about Welsh people who are not working class?
Asking for a friend.
I love all Welsh people, the Welsh rugby union team in recent months has given me so much material that I want to spend every waking moment with Welsh people.
Okkaaaaayyyyy...
Well, that wasn't quite the answer I was expecting.
What about Max Verstappen? Or is he working class because he works?
I love Max Verstappen this year too.
His pain and struggles have cheered me up so much, inject his salty tears into my veins.
Ridiculous to see hundreds arrested for holding up a banner supporting Palestine Action . A total waste of police time and all caused by this moronic government labelling a group who might be guilty of criminal damage but in what world can they be labelled as a terrorist group .
A world in which they're terrorists as defined by law.
Change the law if you're unhappy with it.
A tall ask, that, for nico67.
And not your normal MO to say the letter of the law is the sole arbiter of what's right or wrong.
I never said anything about right or wrong, merely what the law is.
I'm entirely comfortable with people choosing to break the law if they are prepared to face the consequences for doing so. The consequences in this case are terrorism charges.
I'm also comfortable with campaigning to change and liberalise the law.
What I'm not comfortable with is authoritarian laws being passed on a nod and a wink that they won't be applied to people we like but will be applied to others instead. That's not on.
Under the law Blair passed these guys are absolutely 100% terrorists. Repeal Blair's law or campaign against it if it was wrong, don't act like the law doesnt exist or should be selectively applied.
Selective application of authoritarian laws is the worst of all worlds.
Sure. But your reaction was driven by your passionate support for Israel and corresponding antipathy to anything pro Palestine.
It'd be a bit like me getting pissed off with all the PB hating on the OSA and blurting, "It's the law. If you don’t like it change it."
Might do that actually, next time it crops up. Yes, you've sold me.
Quite - BartholomewRoberts is trying to reconcile his usual strident defence of free speech with his hatred for anyone opposing Israel's ethnic cleansing of Gaza by hiding behind "it's the law bro".
I actually entirely agree with and follow his logic - Palestine Action are a terrorist group under the law as written, the Home Secretary was likely within her rights to proscribe them, and therefore support for them is a offence too.
But it's absurd. The people cutting down bus lane cameras in Edinburgh have caused serious and expensive criminal damage, motivated by their politics. They are therefore terrorists. The Home Secretary could proscribe them with no consultation with parliament. Anyone wearing a t-shirt with the name of that group, or defending their actions on facebook, could also be arrested under the Terrorism Act.
No, I think the Home Secretary has to lay a statutory instrument before Parliament to add a group to the list.
Yes, you're right. Fair enough.
(I'd gently suggest that, with a huge majority, people on the right should not encourage the Labour Party to get a taste for proscribing political campaign groups).
Serious and expensive criminal damage is not quite the same as serious and expensive criminal damage done to our defensive capabilities. The latter is belongs to the area of sabotage and treason. I am not convinced that it makes the group a terror group either though. But I do think those involved specifically in those acts should have several books thrown at them.
It's an aggravating factor to any criminal damage charge. That's all it need be.
Keep it simple, avoid giving them some political martyrdom, and lock them up for being ordinary criminals.
Criminal damage doesn't cut it, I'm afraid. By rights, we should be asking why they weren't shot by security.
You can't apply that retrospectively.
But I'd be quite content for the increased defence budget to fund better armed security on RAF bases. With live ammo.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I mean its an absolute mystery why you weren't more popular with him. You had so many characteristics famously so loved by scousers.
It is strange, I have loads of scouse friends who have no issue with my background or education. Mind you, I’ve never tried to marry their daughters.
Yes but unlike TSE you probably don't have a phone wallpaper of Margaret Thatcher or David Cameron?
True, my wallpaper is a deep fake of Liz Truss on a stripper pole. So is my phone screen.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I mean its an absolute mystery why you weren't more popular with him. You had so many characteristics famously so loved by scousers.
It is strange, I have loads of scouse friends who have no issue with my background or education. Mind you, I’ve never tried to marry their daughters.
Yes but unlike TSE you probably don't have a phone wallpaper of Margaret Thatcher or David Cameron?
True, my wallpaper is a deep fake of Liz Truss on a stripper pole. So is my phone screen.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
This thread puts the Ukraine situation pretty well, IMO.
https://x.com/samagreene/status/1954095670312226953 As things stand, Ukraine and Europe are on the verge of being confronted with exactly the kind of Faustian deal they feared would emerge back in February. The fact that Europe hasn’t moved to block such a deal in the past six months is a failure of leadership and diplomacy.
Europe had a choice: it could fight for a seat at the US-Russia table and thereby create agency for itself and Ukraine, or it could create another table entirely. Europe has consistently chosen the former. Hence, here we are.
Ukraine is thus caught between two fatal delusions. The first is America’s delusion that Russia will provide security for Ukraine. It can’t and won’t. The second is Europe’s delusion that its security must run through America. Not anymore.
Security for Ukraine and Europe depends on the two coming together to insulate themselves from Washington and construct deterrence against Moscow. The talks that really matter, then, aren’t the ones in Alaska next week. They’re the ones in Europe, right now.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I mean its an absolute mystery why you weren't more popular with him. You had so many characteristics famously so loved by scousers.
It is strange, I have loads of scouse friends who have no issue with my background or education. Mind you, I’ve never tried to marry their daughters.
Yes but unlike TSE you probably don't have a phone wallpaper of Margaret Thatcher or David Cameron?
True, my wallpaper is a deep fake of Liz Truss on a stripper pole. So is my phone screen.
I thought only Leon had that.
Nah, I know most posters here are sensible and happily married but as a single chap, after quite a few drinks, stumbling into a hotel bar where they are holding a MAGA UK drinks party you would have a go. She would likely be great fun. I wouldn’t necessarily hang around for a lecture over Sunday lunch but variety is the spice of life and she’s not badly put together.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
Piece in the Telegraph that Badenoch being encouraged to focus on rural seats next time. Seems a logical approach - id be telling them to focus on rural, blue wall, west and central London. Forget the red wall, let Labour and Reform blow each other to hell there. Naturally they will ignore rural seats and try and win Leigh back or something stupid
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I mean its an absolute mystery why you weren't more popular with him. You had so many characteristics famously so loved by scousers.
It is strange, I have loads of scouse friends who have no issue with my background or education. Mind you, I’ve never tried to marry their daughters.
Yes but unlike TSE you probably don't have a phone wallpaper of Margaret Thatcher or David Cameron?
True, my wallpaper is a deep fake of Liz Truss on a stripper pole. So is my phone screen.
I thought only Leon had that.
Nah, I know most posters here are sensible and happily married but as a single chap, after quite a few drinks, stumbling into a hotel bar where they are holding a MAGA UK drinks party you would have a go. She would likely be great fun. I wouldn’t necessarily hang around for a lecture over Sunday lunch but variety is the spice of life and she’s not badly put together.
If you've had quite a few drinks (depending), you are possibly incapable of giving consent, so by the appropriate law a sexual assault may be in commission !
The problem is the other way too for MAGA types - how the hell do you tell whether they have been mainlining Class A drugs or not?
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
Passengers will also be asked a series of questions to confirm they have proof of accommodation, sufficient funds for the trip, medical insurance and a return or onward ticket. At most airports and ferry terminals passengers will complete the process at automated kiosks. Those who answer no to any questions are expected to be quizzed by a border officer, who has the power to refuse entry.
This going to catch out a load of people. There are definitely going to be stories of families screaming blue murder that they have been turned away because for breaching one of these conditions and pissing off some Spanish immigration officer.
Those certainly are the rules and a lot of Americans often ask about them when booking a trip to Europe. The rules are only applied to those who look as if they are vagrants to ensure they do not become a financial burden on that particular state.
If the Brits are continually asked about their travel plans, perhaps they could ask TSE for advice on how to present themselves i.e. no Rolex.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
Told the guy in the farm shop I was going to cut it into slices and cook it in a jar of Dolmio.
For a brief moment he believed me !
I bought a new BBQ a few months ago and it has a 'sizzle zone' on it. It heats to 1000 degrees C. It does a rib eye beautifully. 30 sec either side. I didn't buy it for this, but it is the best part of the BBQ. No mess, no cleaning and eating it within minutes.
OMG that sounds amazing. 1000 C, must be gas. A big improvement on the five quid trays we buy from Sainsbury’s !!
Could you, if you used a pizza stone, do a good pizza in it as well ?
You probably only need 450/500 C and 50 seconds
I was looking at an Ooni with my Xmas money but didn’t this year.
I doubt it as it is external and quite small. Yes it is gas. It is a Napoleon. Check out the sizzle zone online. The internal BBQ also heats to a much higher temperature than my old smaller Webber, but not 1000 C obviously. I do cook pizzas in it. I make the dough in the bread maker. They are nice, but I haven't perfected it yet and I think temperature is an issue.
I had a go at making pizzas in Italy this year. Those ovens are really hot. It is out pretty quickly and much nicer than I have managed at home.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
Told the guy in the farm shop I was going to cut it into slices and cook it in a jar of Dolmio.
For a brief moment he believed me !
I bought a new BBQ a few months ago and it has a 'sizzle zone' on it. It heats to 1000 degrees C. It does a rib eye beautifully. 30 sec either side. I didn't buy it for this, but it is the best part of the BBQ. No mess, no cleaning and eating it within minutes.
OMG that sounds amazing. 1000 C, must be gas. A big improvement on the five quid trays we buy from Sainsbury’s !!
Could you, if you used a pizza stone, do a good pizza in it as well ?
You probably only need 450/500 C and 50 seconds
I was looking at an Ooni with my Xmas money but didn’t this year.
I doubt it as it is external and quite small. Yes it is gas. It is a Napoleon. Check out the sizzle zone online. The internal BBQ also heats to a much higher temperature than my old smaller Webber, but not 1000 C obviously. I do cook pizzas in it. I make the dough in the bread maker. They are nice, but I haven't perfected it yet and I think temperature is an issue.
I had a go at making pizzas in Italy this year. Those ovens are really hot. It is out pretty quickly and much nicer than I have managed at home.
I got an Ooni a few years ago and it’s sitting in a cupboard after only being used a handful of times. The issue was the faff of the wood pellets: lighting them, topping them up etc. meant I needed 2 people working on the pizzas, ons managing the wood pellets and one preparing the food.
Gave up on pizza stones too. It takes an hour or more for them to get hot enough that they’re a boon rather a drag on temperature. I do pizzas on heavy metal sheets now, in the oven. Works reasonably well.
We do have a huge bread oven the size of a small building here in Burgundy but it takes a day to heat up with a full wood fire and about 2 days to cool down. Used to be the oven for the hamlet.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
And a very neat tree off to the side.
And a bright yellow sun with big rays!
Obviously. Big old rays. Should be located in the top right of the world, just before its direct descent
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Ridiculous to see hundreds arrested for holding up a banner supporting Palestine Action . A total waste of police time and all caused by this moronic government labelling a group who might be guilty of criminal damage but in what world can they be labelled as a terrorist group .
A world in which they're terrorists as defined by law.
Change the law if you're unhappy with it.
Most people think of terrorist groups as threatening the lives of the public not daubing paint on some military aircraft . They should be done for criminal damage , that’s it .
Not my cup of tea, but not terrorism, unless you completely debase the meaning of the term.
I'm both-sides on this one.
Crippling key assets in the RAF imo is arguably terrorism, or we need something else which is far more serious than "serious criminal damage", because there IS an attack on the security of this country, and at a time of serious threat when we have a thin air force it is putting us in peril. That's more serious than the attacks on infrastructure by JSO or IB which stopped after it was dealt with harshly.
(Never mind that they were sawdust-brained enough to attack assets that are not really used for supporting Netanyahu's war crimes in Gaza.)
Holding a placard saying "I support Palestine Action" is arguably not such. But it's opportunistic in the way that the SWP are sometimes opportunistic.
So I'm not convinced that this was the best step to take by the Govt, but I don't know enough detail to have a practical alternative.
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
And a very neat tree off to the side.
And a bright yellow sun with big rays!
Obviously. Big old rays. Should be located in the top right of the world, just before its direct descent
What’s the perfect house? If you could design the most user-friendly living space, with plentiful space and a reasonable degree of style, what would it look like?
After an hour or so strolling around the museum at St Romain en Gal a couple of days ago I think it’s probably the Roman villa.
Generally horizontal, but with some upper floors. Internal and external spaces, all connected. Timeless design. Without the excesses of neoclassical kitsch because there wasn’t yet any neo. Southern, but transportable to more temperate environments. Plenty of garden space. Privacy and sociability.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
There are only two classes. If you work for a living you are working class. If you live off other peoples work you are a parasite. Ok, three classes. Lawyers are somewhere in the middle.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
And a very neat tree off to the side.
And a bright yellow sun with big rays!
Obviously. Big old rays. Should be located in the top right of the world, just before its direct descent
What’s the perfect house? If you could design the most user-friendly living space, with plentiful space and a reasonable degree of style, what would it look like?
After an hour or so strolling around the museum at St Romain en Gal a couple of days ago I think it’s probably the Roman villa.
Generally horizontal, but with some upper floors. Internal and external spaces, all connected. Timeless design. Without the excesses of neoclassical kitsch because there wasn’t yet any neo. Southern, but transportable to more temperate environments. Plenty of garden space. Privacy and sociability.
Ridiculous to see hundreds arrested for holding up a banner supporting Palestine Action . A total waste of police time and all caused by this moronic government labelling a group who might be guilty of criminal damage but in what world can they be labelled as a terrorist group .
A world in which they're terrorists as defined by law.
Change the law if you're unhappy with it.
Most people think of terrorist groups as threatening the lives of the public not daubing paint on some military aircraft . They should be done for criminal damage , that’s it .
Not my cup of tea, but not terrorism, unless you completely debase the meaning of the term.
I'm both-sides on this one.
Crippling key assets in the RAF imo is arguably terrorism, or we need something else which is far more serious than "serious criminal damage", because there IS an attack on the security of this country, and at a time of serious threat when we have a thin air force it is putting us in peril. That's more serious than the attacks on infrastructure by JSO or IB which stopped after it was dealt with harshly.
(Never mind that they were sawdust-brained enough to attack assets that are not really used for supporting Netanyahu's war crimes in Gaza.)
Holding a placard saying "I support Palestine Action" is arguably not such. But it's opportunistic in the way that the SWP are sometimes opportunistic.
So I'm not convinced that this was the best step to take by the Govt, but I don't know enough detail to have a practical alternative.
I was cut up by a cyclist running a red light earlier. I want cyclists classed as terrorists. That’s how it works, right?
Told the guy in the farm shop I was going to cut it into slices and cook it in a jar of Dolmio.
For a brief moment he believed me !
I bought a new BBQ a few months ago and it has a 'sizzle zone' on it. It heats to 1000 degrees C. It does a rib eye beautifully. 30 sec either side. I didn't buy it for this, but it is the best part of the BBQ. No mess, no cleaning and eating it within minutes.
OMG that sounds amazing. 1000 C, must be gas. A big improvement on the five quid trays we buy from Sainsbury’s !!
Could you, if you used a pizza stone, do a good pizza in it as well ?
You probably only need 450/500 C and 50 seconds
I was looking at an Ooni with my Xmas money but didn’t this year.
I doubt it as it is external and quite small. Yes it is gas. It is a Napoleon. Check out the sizzle zone online. The internal BBQ also heats to a much higher temperature than my old smaller Webber, but not 1000 C obviously. I do cook pizzas in it. I make the dough in the bread maker. They are nice, but I haven't perfected it yet and I think temperature is an issue.
I had a go at making pizzas in Italy this year. Those ovens are really hot. It is out pretty quickly and much nicer than I have managed at home.
I got an Ooni a few years ago and it’s sitting in a cupboard after only being used a handful of times. The issue was the faff of the wood pellets: lighting them, topping them up etc. meant I needed 2 people working on the pizzas, ons managing the wood pellets and one preparing the food.
Gave up on pizza stones too. It takes an hour or more for them to get hot enough that they’re a boon rather a drag on temperature. I do pizzas on heavy metal sheets now, in the oven. Works reasonably well.
We do have a huge bread oven the size of a small building here in Burgundy but it takes a day to heat up with a full wood fire and about 2 days to cool down. Used to be the oven for the hamlet.
I have cooked bread and a pie on my old BBQ, but it really wasn't worth the faff. Oven is much better. Now I have a hotter BBQ I might try again, but it probably isn't worth it.
The sizzle zone though is a revelation. It only takes about 1 min to heat up and 30 sec each side for a rare steak. Nothing to clean either (everything evaporates). And the steaks are the best ever. It is a bit scary though. You don't want to touch it. Rib eye is my steak of choice.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
And a very neat tree off to the side.
And a bright yellow sun with big rays!
Obviously. Big old rays. Should be located in the top right of the world, just before its direct descent
What’s the perfect house? If you could design the most user-friendly living space, with plentiful space and a reasonable degree of style, what would it look like?
After an hour or so strolling around the museum at St Romain en Gal a couple of days ago I think it’s probably the Roman villa.
Generally horizontal, but with some upper floors. Internal and external spaces, all connected. Timeless design. Without the excesses of neoclassical kitsch because there wasn’t yet any neo. Southern, but transportable to more temperate environments. Plenty of garden space. Privacy and sociability.
Too dependent on location for there to be one. By the sea you might want lots of glass and terraces to benefit from the location, the country, solid walls and balance of light from Georgian Sash Windows where the glass walls of the seaside house would make you feel exposed. Hot countries you might want very little window space on the outer walls but courtyards and cloisters to enjoy the shade and light best.
Rainy climate, pitched roofs, dry, flat with a roof terrace.
I guess that’s why we have different global styles.
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
But fuck Lundedorf and Hindenburg. With a chainsaw up the arse. A blunt chainsaw. And turn it on slowly……
By 1917 there was no realistic path for the Central Powers to win the war, even allowing for the collapse of Russia.
But without American infantry and the promise of more to come, there was a reasonable chance that Germany could have held out long enough, and appeared strong enough, to force a genuinely negotiated settlement rather than essentially the conditional surrender they had to take in 1919.
Which would not have been what Germany wanted to start with but could possibly have been spun as a success if they had seized territory in Poland and Belgium.
'Evening pb. Just fulfilled a long held ambition: accompanied by my oldest daughter, I got the train to Penrith, then walked (yesterday) from Penrith to Troutbeck across High Street - staying last night at the Mortal Man - then today walked from Troutbeck over Wansfell Pike to Ambleside and then on to Windermere, getting the train back from Windermere. 50km in two days. Others have done more I'm sure but it's more than I've ever managed before (and the first day's 30km was more than I've ever managed in a day). Also fulfilled the side ambitions of seeing Haweswater (the one Lake District lake that has eluded me up until now), learning cribbage (daughter and I learned it last night) and using the Windermere-Oxenholme line (and wondering whether @Sunil_Prasannan had been on this line - but of course he has! - the latter was gratifyingly well-used). My feet are throbbing, but I feel elated.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
Heseltine was the real thing; it was Clarke that was the dilettante.
Though oddly, it's not the only scatological story I've heard this week. I was chatting to someone who worked in HR consultancy about a 'phantom pooer' in a previous company she worked for. He would leave his offerings everywhere and also used to splash cups of coffee all over the floors and walls. Suspicions came to surround him, but he was only eventually brought to book when he came in especially on his annual leave to resume his activities and was caught on camera signing in.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
Heseltine was the real thing; it was Clarke that was the dilettante.
Clarkie’s old man was a legend, must have been so disappointed with his son.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
Putting aside the self id angle. Taylor had 90 offences on her criminal record, many committed under the previous name of Martin Tarling....The actions meant Taylor breached a criminal behaviour order made in April 2023 at Nottinghamshire Magistrates' Court...Taylor was also ordered to do 100 hours' unpaid work....
Clearly a disturbed individual, but 90 previous offences and you still let them go free. What is 100hrs of picking up litter going to do? I think it is nailed on they reoffend in the near future.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
The number of over-50s claiming benefits has almost hit two million for the first time amid a growing “sick note” culture, a study has found. The number of people aged 50 to 64 who are out of work and claiming benefits has increased by 600,000 – or 43 per cent – to 1.99 million, from 1.4 million just before the Covid lockdown in March 2020.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
Heseltine was the real thing; it was Clarke that was the dilettante.
Clarkie’s old man was a legend, must have been so disappointed with his son.
God that was meant to say “”Clarke” not “Clarkie”. To clarify, Alan Clarke and I didn’t play Sunday league football together.
Ridiculous to see hundreds arrested for holding up a banner supporting Palestine Action . A total waste of police time and all caused by this moronic government labelling a group who might be guilty of criminal damage but in what world can they be labelled as a terrorist group .
A world in which they're terrorists as defined by law.
Change the law if you're unhappy with it.
A tall ask, that, for nico67.
And not your normal MO to say the letter of the law is the sole arbiter of what's right or wrong.
I never said anything about right or wrong, merely what the law is.
I'm entirely comfortable with people choosing to break the law if they are prepared to face the consequences for doing so. The consequences in this case are terrorism charges.
I'm also comfortable with campaigning to change and liberalise the law.
What I'm not comfortable with is authoritarian laws being passed on a nod and a wink that they won't be applied to people we like but will be applied to others instead. That's not on.
Under the law Blair passed these guys are absolutely 100% terrorists. Repeal Blair's law or campaign against it if it was wrong, don't act like the law doesnt exist or should be selectively applied.
Selective application of authoritarian laws is the worst of all worlds.
Sure. But your reaction was driven by your passionate support for Israel and corresponding antipathy to anything pro Palestine.
It'd be a bit like me getting pissed off with all the PB hating on the OSA and blurting, "It's the law. If you don’t like it change it."
Might do that actually, next time it crops up. Yes, you've sold me.
You're close to having a point, those objecting to the rule of law, many of them passionate supporters of "the rule of law" otherwise are raging hypocrites driven by their antipathy to Israel.
I'm enjoying calling out their hypocrisy, yes. I'm not being inconsistent with my principles either, I'd entirely be comfortable with the law being liberalised so people can support terrorists whether they be Islamic, neo-Nazi or Palestinian despite the fact I oppose them all.
What I'm not OK with is authoritarian laws being applied to some but not others.
Hmm, I think you're backfilling. Putting retro logic around what was an emotional comment.
But I won't press the point since you've closed off its air supply.
I think it is you who are retrofitting. Bart has been entirely consistent in his absolute criticism of Blair's Terrorism laws and also insistent that as long as they exist they should be uniformly enforced. There is nothing contradictory or hypocritical in that.
Like Bart I don't think PA should be considered a terrorist organisation and I also think the laws that insist they are should be repealed. But as with my views on taxes (as an example) as long as the law says something and that was passed democratically then I am going to both comply and insist others do the same.
Your enemy here is not Bart or myself. It is the illiberal Governments passing fecking stupid laws.
I'm opining that his brusque oneliner "it's the law, if you don't like it change it" riposte to nico67 was driven by his ardent pro Israelism not his concern for the impartial application of a law he doesn't support. Could be wrong, think I'm right.
Q on this topic: If I were to publicly protest not support for PA but opposition to it being proscribed as a terrorist organisation, would I be committing a crime?
Not sure. You shouldn't be in my opinion but who knows these days.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
At least your abode is three dimensional.
How do you know?
Don't tell anyone but I live in a tesseract
I see your tesseract and raise that I live in a secret penteract.
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
But fuck Lundedorf and Hindenburg. With a chainsaw up the arse. A blunt chainsaw. And turn it on slowly……
By 1917 there was no realistic path for the Central Powers to win the war, even allowing for the collapse of Russia.
I don't agree with that at all. The Frogs came quite close to collapse in 1917 when Nivelle's offensive failed, Russia was bugging out, Britain was close to being cut off from its imports and Italy was, well, Italy.
Had the Krauts had bit more luck with any of those, they could have secured an advantageous peace. Above all, the unrestricted submarine campaign saved us. Had the Germans realised that we were about to run out of cash for American supplies and not bothered with it, they could well have won.
But, as Keynes observed, fortunately the Germans were more stupid than us.
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
The British Army ended the war as the supreme fighting force, possibly the only time in history that this could be said. Despite all the later revisionist bullshit about Lions led by Donkeys, the British, in combination with The Empire had learned how to win WW1 battles, and at the end of the hundred days the vast bulk of the German army was facing them. It’s also true that Germany was starving and would have struggled to keep fighting through 1919. The US effort was extremely helpful, even if mainly for the threat at the start. American forces made a lot of mistakes early on but learned quickly (see also 1941 to 1945). Something else that is under appreciated is how closely the way the British fought in WW2 derives from how they ended WW1. Essentially all of Monty’s battles might as well have been fought in 1918 as 1943-1945. Huge preponderance of guns, surprise, creeping barrages the works.
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
The British Army ended the war as the supreme fighting force, possibly the only time in history that this could be said. Despite all the later revisionist bullshit about Lions led by Donkeys, the British, in combination with The Empire had learned how to win WW1 battles, and at the end of the hundred days the vast bulk of the German army was facing them. It’s also true that Germany was starving and would have struggled to keep fighting through 1919. The US effort was extremely helpful, even if mainly for the threat at the start. American forces made a lot of mistakes early on but learned quickly (see also 1941 to 1945). Something else that is under appreciated is how closely the way the British fought in WW2 derives from how they ended WW1. Essentially all of Monty’s battles might as well have been fought in 1918 as 1943-1945. Huge preponderance of guns, surprise, creeping barrages the works.
Absolutely - the linked pod covers that too. I was a bit questioning if the guest historian was a bit “lions led by donkeys” but he was in truth very fair and pointed out how the British army (including the empire generals) really got it right overall and how it played into WW2.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Because you are engaged in snobbery and virtue signaling at the same time.
Putting aside the self id angle. Taylor had 90 offences on her criminal record, many committed under the previous name of Martin Tarling....The actions meant Taylor breached a criminal behaviour order made in April 2023 at Nottinghamshire Magistrates' Court...Taylor was also ordered to do 100 hours' unpaid work....
Clearly a disturbed individual, but 90 previous offences and you still let them go free. What is 100hrs of picking up litter going to do? I think it is nailed on they reoffend in the near future.
'She' had already spent time in prison
'While being held on remand at HMP Durham since May, Taylor had been attacked several times by other inmates and now spends her time alone in a cell, Mr Lane told the court.'
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Because you are engaged in snobbery and virtue signaling at the same time.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Heseltine's father was a factory owner, and he went to Shrewsbury and Oxford so was pretty posh, even not as posh as Eton and Oxford and castle owning son of an art historian Clark
'Evening pb. Just fulfilled a long held ambition: accompanied by my oldest daughter, I got the train to Penrith, then walked (yesterday) from Penrith to Troutbeck across High Street - staying last night at the Mortal Man - then today walked from Troutbeck over Wansfell Pike to Ambleside and then on to Windermere, getting the train back from Windermere. 50km in two days. Others have done more I'm sure but it's more than I've ever managed before (and the first day's 30km was more than I've ever managed in a day). Also fulfilled the side ambitions of seeing Haweswater (the one Lake District lake that has eluded me up until now), learning cribbage (daughter and I learned it last night) and using the Windermere-Oxenholme line (and wondering whether @Sunil_Prasannan had been on this line - but of course he has! - the latter was gratifyingly well-used). My feet are throbbing, but I feel elated.
I spent a lot of my childhood holidays round Ullswater. One of God's own countries.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Because you are engaged in snobbery and virtue signaling at the same time.
Putting aside the self id angle. Taylor had 90 offences on her criminal record, many committed under the previous name of Martin Tarling....The actions meant Taylor breached a criminal behaviour order made in April 2023 at Nottinghamshire Magistrates' Court...Taylor was also ordered to do 100 hours' unpaid work....
Clearly a disturbed individual, but 90 previous offences and you still let them go free. What is 100hrs of picking up litter going to do? I think it is nailed on they reoffend in the near future.
'She' had already spent time in prison
'While being held on remand at HMP Durham since May, Taylor had been attacked several times by other inmates and now spends her time alone in a cell, Mr Lane told the court.'
I would have thought detention in a mental health institution would be appropriate. And see if there can anything be done to work towards not racking up a 92nd offence.
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
But fuck Lundedorf and Hindenburg. With a chainsaw up the arse. A blunt chainsaw. And turn it on slowly……
By 1917 there was no realistic path for the Central Powers to win the war, even allowing for the collapse of Russia.
I don't agree with that at all. The Frogs came quite close to collapse in 1917 when Nivelle's offensive failed, Russia was bugging out, Britain was close to being cut off from its imports and Italy was, well, Italy.
Had the Krauts had bit more luck with any of those, they could have secured an advantageous peace. Above all, the unrestricted submarine campaign saved us. Had the Germans realised that we were about to run out of cash for American supplies and not bothered with it, they could well have won.
But, as Keynes observed, fortunately the Germans were more stupid than us.
Reread my comment. Particularly this bit, which you have mysteriously cut:
But without American infantry and the promise of more to come, there was a reasonable chance that Germany could have held out long enough, and appeared strong enough, to force a genuinely negotiated settlement rather than essentially the conditional surrender they had to take in 1919.
Which would not have been what Germany wanted to start with but could possibly have been spun as a success if they had seized territory in Poland and Belgium.
'An advantageous peace' was not, in the eyes of the Kaiser, a win. Just as if Small One gets Donetsk and Luhansk he will not have achieved his war aims in Ukraine. Or areas that consistently have a 7.5% vote for Liberals are not put into single seats at the behest of Nick Clegg as a result of some mythical need for electoral advantage.
By 1917 there was no way an exhausted, starved and blockaded Germany, whose main allies were all in a far worse state of collapse than the countries you name, could achieve what it had intended to achieve by a war in the years leading up to 1914. It could not therefore 'win.'
The question at issue was whether they would have lost, which is not the same thing, without American intervention, to which I was saying yes they could still have lost but without it there was a definite possibility of stringing out the war for two more years and hoping the British and French gave up.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Heseltine's father was a factory owner, and he went to Shrewsbury and Oxford so was pretty posh, even not as posh as Eton and Oxford and castle owning son of an art historian Clark
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Heseltine's father was a factory owner, and he went to Shrewsbury and Oxford so was pretty posh, even not as posh as Eton and Oxford and castle owning son of an art historian Clark
Who cares ?
Plenty of posters for the last few hours on here by the looks of things
Western media have been useless and fell for the Trump being tougher on Russia narrative .
The whole thing has been a charade arranged between the Kremlin and the WH .
All Putin needs for Trump to fold is a reminder of the video footage from that Moscow hotel room circa 2003. In the light of Epstein, how old was young Svetlana by the way? Kyiv will be a Russian city by elevensies.
This is the sort of absurdity world affairs hinge upon in the Trump era.
In a sense we are back to the possibility of Trump selling Ukraine down the river, as he attempted when he was trying to get his minerals deal and talking over Europe's head.
That one was headed off at the pass. How to do that again?
Trump wants a ceasefire along current Russian lines of occupation in Ukraine, which to be fair to the author of the Art of the Deal is the minimum Putin would accept and the maximum Zelensky would accept
I think the issue is what other strings are attached . So in terms of the Ukraine military, peace keeping forces ,EU , NATO membership . Looking at the leak today . I don’t think it’s just about what territory might have to be ceded .
Reported in the US, the Trump (ie Putin) proposal consists of a ceasefire first stage which has Ukraine withdrawing troops from the entire Donetsk region, and freezing the front lines.
The second stage consists of Putin and Trump agreeing on a final 'peace plan', which only then be put to Zelensky.
So effectively Ukraine is required to put itself at a further disadvantage before anything is agreed. And they are to be shut out of the subsequent negotiation.
That's plainly absurd, but it could have the full weight of the US behind it.
Not a full report, 'the White House is trying to sway European leaders towards accepting an agreement that would include Russia taking the entire Donbas region in eastern Ukraine and keeping Crimea.
It would give up the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions, which it partially occupies, as part of the proposed agreement, CBS reports.'
So Russia wouldn't even keep all the land it currently occupies. Realistically if Zelensky couldn't retake all the above in the last 3 years despite lots of military supplies from the US Biden regime as well as Europe, Canada and the rest of NATO plus sanctions on Moscow he certainly won't with less military aid from the Trump regime and relying only on European and Canadian support.
So he may as well accept a ceasefire on the above lines while Trump remains in office, save thousands of Ukranian lives and hope the next US President is a Democrat who might resume increased US military aid to Kyiv again https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cvgnpv1x3ygt
It won't save 'thousands of Ukrainian lives', as Putin will just try again in a few years, when he has rebuilt much of his military. 2014-2022 redux.
In which case even the Trump administration would push back as Putin would have broken the Trump brokered ceasefire which Trump would see as a personal slight
I think you have rather rose-tinted glasses on over what Trump would do. Trump does not care one bit about Ukraine or Ukrainians, and Putin's not dumb. Putin would give Trump an excuse to do no tangible actions, e.g. by making out that Ukraine broke the ceasefire first.
I think that is presumptious, after all Trump has just imposed sanctions on India for buying Russian oil.
The alternative is for Zelensky to reject the ceasefire, Trump to remove sanctions on Russia too, thousands more Ukranians to die and at best Ukraine holding onto the land it currently still has with European and Canadian support which it would still keep under the proposed ceasefire anyway.
And your view is all presumptions as well.
Trump rally wants a ceasefire. I doubt he wants this because he wants to help Ukraine, or even wants peace; he has other reasons. Perhaps the Nobel peace prize, perhaps something else. The increase in sanctions is a weapon to get that. Once he gets what he wants, why do you think he'd care?
Do you agree it is right for the agreement to be agreed between the USA and Russia without (at least) Ukrainian involvement?
Trump won the presidential election last year on a platform which included a ceasefire in Ukraine and no more US military aid for Zelensky.
You may not like that but he has a mandate from US voters for it, so as long as Trump remains in the Oval Office and a Democrat is not President there is zero chance of Zelensky winning the war and having enough military support without US backing to force the Russians from Ukraine.
Ukraine will obviously have to agree to its terms too but once Harris and the Democrats lost last year, Zelensky was always going to have to cut his losses or just have more of the meat grinder of dead Ukranians while at best only holding current Ukranian lines
Europe, including the UK needs to put more pressure on Russia, military if necessary. We need to be independent of the untrustworthy Americans until they come to their senses and get rid of Trump and all his acolytes. If Putin is allowed to get hold of even a small part of Ukraine, who will be next? Estonia? Finland?
Putin doesn't care what Europe threatens, our continent has shown time and time again we prefer spending on welfare and health and public services far more than we do spending on defence, only the US is willing to match Russia on defence spending.
Yes we may spend a bit more now but still our voters won't back public service cuts to send more missiles to Ukraine.
Estonia and Finland are in NATO unlike Ukraine, Putin wants a greater Russia but he still doesn't want a full war with NATO
The majority of the twentieth century would somewhat contradict this.....
The opposite, Germany was only defeated in WW1 once the US entered the War in 1917.
Western Europe was also only freed from the Nazis in WW2 after the US entered the War in 1941, only the UK holding firm free of Fascism before that.
It was also US aid and arms spending which ultimately won the Cold War and saw the Soviet Union collapse
You really don't know much history do you. Go and read about the naval race and then we can talk.
Well the naval race didn't defeat Germany either did it
Ultimately, it did.
At Jutland, the prisoner assaulted the jailer. But the prisoner remained in prison.
The sane in WWII. The RN owned the surface. Which is how they enforced the blockade and eventually defeated the U Boats.
It was still only the arrival of US troops in 1917 that led to the Hundred Days Offensive in 1918 that pushed the Germans back far enough to effectively win the war.
The Americans did a small part of the fighting.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
To be fair, I used to mock the American fighting efforts in WW1 but this podcast fairly rebutted the efforts and involvement and sacrifice of the US in WW1. Their intervention on the Western front as fresh infantry, and how quickly they learned and tipped the balance is not appreciated but very important.
The British Army ended the war as the supreme fighting force, possibly the only time in history that this could be said. Despite all the later revisionist bullshit about Lions led by Donkeys, the British, in combination with The Empire had learned how to win WW1 battles, and at the end of the hundred days the vast bulk of the German army was facing them. It’s also true that Germany was starving and would have struggled to keep fighting through 1919. The US effort was extremely helpful, even if mainly for the threat at the start. American forces made a lot of mistakes early on but learned quickly (see also 1941 to 1945). Something else that is under appreciated is how closely the way the British fought in WW2 derives from how they ended WW1. Essentially all of Monty’s battles might as well have been fought in 1918 as 1943-1945. Huge preponderance of guns, surprise, creeping barrages the works.
You mention 'in combination with the Empire.'
It is worth noting it was Monash, and to a lesser extent Currie, who pioneered those new tactics.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Because you are engaged in snobbery and virtue signaling at the same time.
Busted on both.
Okay.
Tough gig here.
It truly is. Not as tough as the 29 hours a day, 12 days a week my father spent down the mines to afford to send me to school where they taught me to refer to him as “my father” rather than “old baastad” so eventually I could come on a website and virtue signal and be a snob at the same time. Hard times.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
You could be a Cameroon populist who tells it like it is and who people would like to have a pint with.
I am not a populist, I am commendably/recklessly honest.
'His outfit costs more than my second home but he looks like a Nov 5th Guy in it' quipped backbencher Woolie
It's funny you mention that, main (of the many) reasons my father-in-law to be didn't like me was that I drove a vehicle that cost more than his house.
His view was that nobody normal needs to spend that much on a vehicle.
It was a mystery why a working class Scouse/Irish heritage guy didn't like me, this brash, privately educated Tory.
I wear Amazon Essentials jeans. I know nothing bout nothing
Being thinner, they put a greater emphasis on your pertly toned butt, and your bulging thighs.
Probably.
I mean they are cheap. I'm built like a child's drawing of a human so emphasis is not my friend
I hope you also live in a child’s drawing of a house.
I wish! The luxury of a central front door and two stories!
And a very neat tree off to the side.
And a bright yellow sun with big rays!
Obviously. Big old rays. Should be located in the top right of the world, just before its direct descent
What’s the perfect house? If you could design the most user-friendly living space, with plentiful space and a reasonable degree of style, what would it look like?
After an hour or so strolling around the museum at St Romain en Gal a couple of days ago I think it’s probably the Roman villa.
Generally horizontal, but with some upper floors. Internal and external spaces, all connected. Timeless design. Without the excesses of neoclassical kitsch because there wasn’t yet any neo. Southern, but transportable to more temperate environments. Plenty of garden space. Privacy and sociability.
IMO it's impossible to design a good house without thinking about its environment, starting with the surroundings, the views and the effect of the changing sun.
I'd go for an updated version of the design principles applied here - Turn End in Buckinghamshire. Self built by an architect and his spouse (and some students) in 1966; they who still live there.
If you ever have a chance to visit, it is REALLY worth it. He's 92, so you won't be able to talk to him for much longer. He has more listed buildings than any other living architect.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
Not me, I hold all members of the working classes in incredibly low regard.
Have you ever considered standing for political office?
I have in the past but realised my sense of humour would get me into trouble.
But think about all those freebie suits and shoes you could get.
But the politics of envy would kick in.
I'd get criticised for turning up to parliament or a constituency surgery wearing £700 Louis Vuitton shoes, £500 Turnbull & Asser shirt, and £3,500 bespoke suit, and that's me slumming it.
Edit - And I haven't even mentioned the watches.
Norman StJohn Stevas would consider you underdressed and slovenly
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
Heseltine wordsmithwas the real thing; it was Clarke that was the dilettante.
Clarkie’s old man was a legend, must have been so disappointed with his son.
God that was meant to say “”Clarke” not “Clarkie”. To clarify, Alan Clarke and I didn’t play Sunday league football together.
Maybe you did, with A(l)lan or his brothers Wayne, Kelvin, Derek and Frank. Likewise if you ever jammed with the Hollies, Alan Clarke was your lead singer. On the other hand if you are thinking of the world class swordsman, wordsmith and the son of "Civilisation" writer Kenneth, that would be Alan Clark.
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
"Gambling is good and a sign of a free people. It hasn't led to huge societal problems and any problems it causes is the responsibility of the individual and outweighed by the innocent pleasure it gives. It is a sign and a token of freedom of the individual and should not be restrained. Janice Turner has not been elected and has no moral nor official authority to dictate the course of people's lives" - viewcode (free)
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
Heseltine wordsmithwas the real thing; it was Clarke that was the dilettante.
Clarkie’s old man was a legend, must have been so disappointed with his son.
God that was meant to say “”Clarke” not “Clarkie”. To clarify, Alan Clarke and I didn’t play Sunday league football together.
Maybe you did, with A(l)lan or his brothers Wayne, Kelvin, Derek and Frank. Likewise if you ever jammed with the Hollies, Alan Clarke was your lead singer. On the other hand if you are thinking of the world class swordsman, wordsmith and the son of "Civilisation" write, Kenneth, that would be Alan Clark.
Thank you for your correction, Lord Clark of Civilisation was the legend.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Because you are engaged in snobbery and virtue signaling at the same time.
Busted on both.
Okay.
Tough gig here.
It truly is. Not as tough as the 29 hours a day, 12 days a week my father spent down the mines to afford to send me to school where they taught me to refer to him as “my father” rather than “old baastad” so eventually I could come on a website and virtue signal and be a snob at the same time. Hard times.
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Heseltine's father was a factory owner, and he went to Shrewsbury and Oxford so was pretty posh, even not as posh as Eton and Oxford and castle owning son of an art historian Clark
Who cares ?
Plenty of posters for the last few hours on here by the looks of things
I have something of a bugbear of the phrase "who cares?". The implication is "no one cares", when often what the speaker should be conveying is "I, personally, don't care". I remember someone butting uninvited into a conversation I was unenthusiastically part of about the football world cup with a "who cares?" interjection. The speaker might reasonably have said that HE didn't care (though in this case noone asked him, nor solicited his involvement in the conversation) but to imply that NOBODY cared about the football world cup seemed a stretch.
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
"Labour should atone for its gambling sins Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits Janice Turner" (£)
"Gambling is good and a sign of a free people. It hasn't led to huge societal problems and any problems it causes is the responsibility of the individual and outweighed by the innocent pleasure it gives. It is a sign and a token of freedom of the individual and should not be restrained. Janice Turner has not been elected and has no moral nor official authority to dictate the course of people's lives" - viewcode (free)
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
That is just 'sophisticated conversationalism' though. It's not actually true.
Heseltine's father was a factory owner, and he went to Shrewsbury and Oxford so was pretty posh, even not as posh as Eton and Oxford and castle owning son of an art historian Clark
Who cares ?
Plenty of posters for the last few hours on here by the looks of things
I have something of a bugbear of the phrase "who cares?". The implication is "no one cares", when often what the speaker should be conveying is "I, personally, don't care". I remember someone butting uninvited into a conversation I was unenthusiastically part of about the football world cup with a "who cares?" interjection. The speaker might reasonably have said that HE didn't care (though in this case noone asked him, nor solicited his involvement in the conversation) but to imply that NOBODY cared about the football world cup seemed a stretch.
It could of course have been worse, they could have said “I could care less” and then followed later about something with “the proof is in the pudding”.
Some people hold white working class people in incredibly low regard. Almost as if they're a different species.
And you wonder, with many that do, how few generations of ancestors before them they had white working class people who worked hard to get subsequent generations “up” in the world to the point the current ones are in a financial/professional/social position to feel that they can look down on them.
On the contrary such people tend to exalt their working class roots. My right on friend (a professor of Gender Studies at a major university no less) self-identifies as working class because her grandparents were Welsh miners.
Looking down on Reform voters doesn't equate to looking down on the WWC, no matter how much people like Lee Andrrson tries to equate the two.
I have met far too many people who are seriously rude about the “white working class” who are second generation “money”, and usually not much to shout about. They are desperate to pull on the supposed behaviours and attitudes of upper middle and upper classes to an almost comedic effect and their theatrical dislike of hoi polloi is grim. I know a chap, have done since we were 5, whose grandfather was from a Birmingham slum, sharp as fuck and made millions in arms deals, starting with buying excess British army boots and selling them for double the cost to the Middle East. If you met this chap you would think he was a grotesque character of a rude duke but his manners are all book learned. He’s an uneducated buffoon who is rude to waiting staff and the like. He’s one example of so many people like him who want people to think they aren’t anything to do with the WWF.
I have had, since university, idiots ask me why I’m such good friends with x and y because they are, you know, a bit common/rough, uneducated. Honestly it would be funny if it wasn’t so sad that people whose parents and grandparents worked their way “up” suddenly feel they have to mock or hate the WWC to make themselves feel better.
There is a subset who do, as you say, embrace their “real” roots to give them cred but many more are utter shits who knock others in an attempt to elevate themselves.
Ah, so you look down on the nouveau riche. How very upper-middle class of you.
No, I don’t like people who are rude to people and look down on others for shitty reasons, in my experience there is usually a pattern to their backgrounds and it’s not cool. I don’t give a damn where anyone comes from, their accents, earnings, education but I’ve had the misfortune to have known too many who do. So instead of trying to find something to hit me with maybe you might agree that the sentiment is correct?
So you think that I should look down on them too?
Oh god, yes, look down on, or alternatively disapprove of, people who are shits to people because of some misplaced belief they have that they are superior and because their superiority is built in such fragile foundations they have to put down people in a worse position to bolster their own fragility and insecurity. It’s not controversial.
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Every tier in society looks down most aggressively on the tier just a tiny bit below it.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
Heseltine wordsmithwas the real thing; it was Clarke that was the dilettante.
Clarkie’s old man was a legend, must have been so disappointed with his son.
God that was meant to say “”Clarke” not “Clarkie”. To clarify, Alan Clarke and I didn’t play Sunday league football together.
Maybe you did, with A(l)lan or his brothers Wayne, Kelvin, Derek and Frank. Likewise if you ever jammed with the Hollies, Alan Clarke was your lead singer. On the other hand if you are thinking of the world class swordsman, wordsmith and the son of "Civilisation" writer Kenneth, that would be Alan Clark.
I met a dog called Derek yesterday. He was a pug. He had a brother/friend/fellow pug called Gary. In common with the majority of pugs I have met, he was a yappy idiot. I also met a dog today called Patrick. He was much more pleasant.
Comments
Er, I mean, because they might tell tales.
A lot of them are disparaging about 'Woolies' (aka Liverpool fans who aren't from Liverpool) but when they hear me talk about LFC, they know I am a true fan. I had them in stitches when I described one goal as 'Gary MacAllister's 44 yard better sex injury time free kick winner in the deby'.
His pain and struggles have cheered me up so much, inject his salty tears into my veins.
Probably.
https://x.com/samagreene/status/1954095670312226953
As things stand, Ukraine and Europe are on the verge of being confronted with exactly the kind of Faustian deal they feared would emerge back in February. The fact that Europe hasn’t moved to block such a deal in the past six months is a failure of leadership and diplomacy.
Europe had a choice: it could fight for a seat at the US-Russia table and thereby create agency for itself and Ukraine, or it could create another table entirely. Europe has consistently chosen the former. Hence, here we are.
Ukraine is thus caught between two fatal delusions. The first is America’s delusion that Russia will provide security for Ukraine. It can’t and won’t. The second is Europe’s delusion that its security must run through America. Not anymore.
Security for Ukraine and Europe depends on the two coming together to insulate themselves from Washington and construct deterrence against Moscow. The talks that really matter, then, aren’t the ones in Alaska next week. They’re the ones in Europe, right now.
As is Hymn by Ultravox.
Good day for the lawyers, again.
Naturally they will ignore rural seats and try and win Leigh back or something stupid
The problem is the other way too for MAGA types - how the hell do you tell whether they have been mainlining Class A drugs or not?
https://www.marshallandsaunders.com/blog/intoxication-and-consent
Law that super-charged our betting habit 20 years ago has led to huge societal problems — and vast company profits
Janice Turner" (£)
https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/labour-atone-gambling-sins-zfqhqvmjm
If the Brits are continually asked about their travel plans, perhaps they could ask TSE for advice on how to present themselves i.e. no Rolex.
I had a go at making pizzas in Italy this year. Those ovens are really hot. It is out pretty quickly and much nicer than I have managed at home.
The panic they induced in the cowardly scumbags of the German High Command was a sight though. “Oh shit, now we need to run away and claim a Big Boy beat us up.”
Gave up on pizza stones too. It takes an hour or more for them to get hot enough that they’re a boon rather a drag on temperature. I do pizzas on heavy metal sheets now, in the oven. Works reasonably well.
We do have a huge bread oven the size of a small building here in Burgundy but it takes a day to heat up with a full wood fire and about 2 days to cool down. Used to be the oven for the hamlet.
YouGov's research also found 53 per cent of respondents like pineapple on their pizza
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-14976475/pizza-toppings-say-you-science.html
Edit - and obviously close the nightclubs
The fact that these people aspire to be something and in doing so feel they need to mock others is not something that should be free from mockery and dislike. If you had a doctor start with you, where you know, because you had seen their application that they had been the first of their family to university and done well becoming a doctor then started slagging off patients for being less educated, less worldly I would hope you would pull them up.
My point was that I found found, and yes it’s anecdotal, that there is a spcertain section of society that are worse for knocking the WWC and they are usually less removed from the WWC and it’s not ok. I’m not sure why you think this is a reason to attack and not agree unless you have been so insultaped that you have never come across this phenomenon, considering your education, global exposure and life I can’t believe you haven’t.
Crippling key assets in the RAF imo is arguably terrorism, or we need something else which is far more serious than "serious criminal damage", because there IS an attack on the security of this country, and at a time of serious threat when we have a thin air force it is putting us in peril. That's more serious than the attacks on infrastructure by JSO or IB which stopped after it was dealt with harshly.
(Never mind that they were sawdust-brained enough to attack assets that are not really used for supporting Netanyahu's war crimes in Gaza.)
Holding a placard saying "I support Palestine Action" is arguably not such. But it's opportunistic in the way that the SWP are sometimes opportunistic.
So I'm not convinced that this was the best step to take by the Govt, but I don't know enough detail to have a practical alternative.
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dan-carlins-hardcore-history-addendum/id1326393257?i=1000408784571
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c62gn7j9q76o
After an hour or so strolling around the museum at St Romain en Gal a couple of days ago I think it’s probably the Roman villa.
Generally horizontal, but with some upper floors. Internal and external spaces, all connected. Timeless design. Without the excesses of neoclassical kitsch because there wasn’t yet any neo. Southern, but transportable to more temperate environments. Plenty of garden space. Privacy and sociability.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgkrge6e0z4o
The sizzle zone though is a revelation. It only takes about 1 min to heat up and 30 sec each side for a rare steak. Nothing to clean either (everything evaporates). And the steaks are the best ever. It is a bit scary though. You don't want to touch it. Rib eye is my steak of choice.
“An arriviste, certainly, who can't shoot straight and in Jopling's damning phrase 'bought all his own furniture', but who at any rate seeks the cachet. All the nouves in the party think he is the real thing” (Alan Clarke on Heseltine).
But fuck Lundedorf and Hindenburg. With a chainsaw up the arse. A blunt chainsaw. And turn it on slowly……
Rainy climate, pitched roofs, dry, flat with a roof terrace.
I guess that’s why we have different global styles.
But without American infantry and the promise of more to come, there was a reasonable chance that Germany could have held out long enough, and appeared strong enough, to force a genuinely negotiated settlement rather than essentially the conditional surrender they had to take in 1919.
Which would not have been what Germany wanted to start with but could possibly have been spun as a success if they had seized territory in Poland and Belgium.
My feet are throbbing, but I feel elated.
TBF, both were quite witty on occasion.
Though oddly, it's not the only scatological story I've heard this week. I was chatting to someone who worked in HR consultancy about a 'phantom pooer' in a previous company she worked for. He would leave his offerings everywhere and also used to splash cups of coffee all over the floors and walls. Suspicions came to surround him, but he was only eventually brought to book when he came in especially on his annual leave to resume his activities and was caught on camera signing in.
Clearly a disturbed individual, but 90 previous offences and you still let them go free. What is 100hrs of picking up litter going to do? I think it is nailed on they reoffend in the near future.
The number of over-50s claiming benefits has almost hit two million for the first time amid a growing “sick note” culture, a study has found. The number of people aged 50 to 64 who are out of work and claiming benefits has increased by 600,000 – or 43 per cent – to 1.99 million, from 1.4 million just before the Covid lockdown in March 2020.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/08/09/baby-boomer-benefits-claims-hit-record-high/
Had the Krauts had bit more luck with any of those, they could have secured an advantageous peace. Above all, the unrestricted submarine campaign saved us. Had the Germans realised that we were about to run out of cash for American supplies and not bothered with it, they could well have won.
But, as Keynes observed, fortunately the Germans were more stupid than us.
The US effort was extremely helpful, even if mainly for the threat at the start. American forces made a lot of mistakes early on but learned quickly (see also 1941 to 1945).
Something else that is under appreciated is how closely the way the British fought in WW2 derives from how they ended WW1. Essentially all of Monty’s battles might as well have been fought in 1918 as 1943-1945. Huge preponderance of guns, surprise, creeping barrages the works.
Busted on both.
Ref 31 (-1)
Lab 22 (-3)
Con 17 (=)
LD 13 (=)
Grn 9 (+1)
SNP 3 (=)
PC 1 (=)
Others 4 (+2)
'While being held on remand at HMP Durham since May, Taylor had been attacked several times by other inmates and now spends her time alone in a cell, Mr Lane told the court.'
But without American infantry and the promise of more to come, there was a reasonable chance that Germany could have held out long enough, and appeared strong enough, to force a genuinely negotiated settlement rather than essentially the conditional surrender they had to take in 1919.
Which would not have been what Germany wanted to start with but could possibly have been spun as a success if they had seized territory in Poland and Belgium.
'An advantageous peace' was not, in the eyes of the Kaiser, a win. Just as if Small One gets Donetsk and Luhansk he will not have achieved his war aims in Ukraine. Or areas that consistently have a 7.5% vote for Liberals are not put into single seats at the behest of Nick Clegg as a result of some mythical need for electoral advantage.
By 1917 there was no way an exhausted, starved and blockaded Germany, whose main allies were all in a far worse state of collapse than the countries you name, could achieve what it had intended to achieve by a war in the years leading up to 1914. It could not therefore 'win.'
The question at issue was whether they would have lost, which is not the same thing, without American intervention, to which I was saying yes they could still have lost but without it there was a definite possibility of stringing out the war for two more years and hoping the British and French gave up.
It is worth noting it was Monash, and to a lesser extent Currie, who pioneered those new tactics.
I'd go for an updated version of the design principles applied here - Turn End in Buckinghamshire. Self built by an architect and his spouse (and some students) in 1966; they who still live there.
If you ever have a chance to visit, it is REALLY worth it. He's 92, so you won't be able to talk to him for much longer. He has more listed buildings than any other living architect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNV1_EKo7Tg
https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/5287909/#Comment_5287909
I also met a dog today called Patrick. He was much more pleasant.