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Could the Tories have their sixth leader in six years? – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,318
edited February 16 in General
Could the Tories have their sixth leader in six years? – politicalbetting.com

The Tory Party is not a happy ship!?Shadow Cabinet ministers say Kemi Badenoch is bombing at PMQs?Reform's Nick Candy is hoovering up donors while Tories are cash-strapped?Kemi left a posh dinner with wealthy footie boss with no backing or chequehttps://t.co/iBIjb94MuP

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Comments

  • DavidL said:

    First?

    On topic, what is the point? It is not as if the Tories have a David Cameron or George Osborne (let alone both) to make the party relevant and coherent again sitting in the wings. Just remember that the alternative was Jenrick. That was the best they could come up with.

    Just look at the bar chart (and commentary) I've added.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 381
    These decisions are not specific to political parties. If any leader is a dud and the economic welfare of those that rely on that leader is at risk, then there will be some form of reaction short of mutiny.

    She's a dud.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152
    She is increasingly looking like a dud, but the Tories have to stick with Badenoch for at least a year. It's not as if there aren't any elections looming so poor polling is not really an issue yet.

    It's not as if there is any obvious alternative path open to them.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,937
    Yup. If they know what’s good for them they will switch.

    The big question is do they elect a Reform lite leader prepared to play lieutenant to Farage or do they elect someone who has the ambition to reassert a distinct identity and the charisma to win arguments.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,515

    DavidL said:

    First?

    On topic, what is the point? It is not as if the Tories have a David Cameron or George Osborne (let alone both) to make the party relevant and coherent again sitting in the wings. Just remember that the alternative was Jenrick. That was the best they could come up with.

    Just look at the bar chart (and commentary) I've added.
    Thought you were away this weekend?

    What the Tories really need is Osborne to come back into front line politics but he seems to be enjoying life making serious money and being an incisive commentator from the side lines. Penny was promoting herself yesterday and seems keen to get back but Osborne seems to have moved on, sadly. Cameron's greatest strength was having someone like that to watch his back. None of these others had that. Who does Kemi have?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,937
    If only Badenoch was half as good as she thinks she is.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152
    Jonathan said:

    Yup. If they know what’s good for them they will switch.

    The big question is do they elect a Reform lite leader prepared to play lieutenant to Farage or do they elect someone who has the ambition to reassert a distinct identity and the charisma to win arguments.

    Who is this mysterious someone with charisma and a distinct identity? Are we awaiting the return of Big Dog from the wilderness?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,937
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Yup. If they know what’s good for them they will switch.

    The big question is do they elect a Reform lite leader prepared to play lieutenant to Farage or do they elect someone who has the ambition to reassert a distinct identity and the charisma to win arguments.

    Who is this mysterious someone with charisma and a distinct identity? Are we awaiting the return of Big Dog from the wilderness?
    He would say yes and is no doubt plotting, but TSEs idea is better.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,662
    At the same stage of Starmer's leadership of Labour, nearly everybody was convinced he was a complete dud, but he turned out to be an election winner.
    The difference, though, is that Starmer had the full backing of his party. It doesn't seem that Badenoch does. So she's probably a goner.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,553
    No, Kemi won the Tory MPs and membership vote, something only Cameron and Boris managed of Conservative leaders this century. The party is much more than a few donors, especially as any uber small state, slash regulation City donors Candy is attracting to Reform will soon find the policies they want hitting the brickwall of the policies redwall voters want and Farage will find holding both a challenge.

    On most current polls anyway there will be a hung parliament, which would be more of an achievement for Kemi than Foot, Hague and Ed Miliband achieved after taking over as leader of their party after losing power. In any case if she was removed by MPs her replacement would likely be Stride or Philp who while they might do a bit better at PMQs would likely make little difference in polls, same as when Howard replaced IDS
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633
    Foxy said:

    Jonathan said:

    Yup. If they know what’s good for them they will switch.

    The big question is do they elect a Reform lite leader prepared to play lieutenant to Farage or do they elect someone who has the ambition to reassert a distinct identity and the charisma to win arguments.

    Who is this mysterious someone with charisma and a distinct identity? Are we awaiting the return of Big Dog from the wilderness?
    Big Dog is still firmly on Team Trump, which would seem to be a sub-optimal position these days...
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 791
    DavidL said:

    First?

    On topic, what is the point? It is not as if the Tories have a David Cameron or George Osborne (let alone both) to make the party relevant and coherent again sitting in the wings. Just remember that the alternative was Jenrick. That was the best they could come up with.

    The alternative should have been Cleverly but we're told the MPs tried to be too "clever" and effed it up.
    Wouldn't have delighted the culture war warriors but I'm sure that would have been forgotten with a few competent performances at PMQs. Also in these uncertain times more likely to support Starmer in the UK's best interest, which depressingly may well be necessary.

    Still Badenoch is there for a year, so probably until at least 2026 unless she resigns, but very unlikely to still be there for the GE. No value left in laying her to make 2029 or later on the markets
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,515
    What Kemi needs to do is some serious, hard thinking about what the Tories actually want from power beyond power itself. She should be setting up groups to think about what we need to do as a country on topics like social care, health, incentivising growth, defence, trade, immigration etc etc. Don't waste the time in opposition: use it to think.

    At the moment its all a bit self indulgent, attacking a government which in most respects is doing pretty much what they did in government having lost their way and being mocked for these reasons. If Kemi can't have an Osborne she needs a Keith Joseph or Geoffrey Howe to bring forward ideas and new thinking. She needs to define herself in the public mind. She has barely started that.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633
    @SkyNews

    'Look, I'm not even going to go there, Trevor'

    Shadow Foreign Secretary Dame @pritipatel pushes back on rumours that former PM Boris Johnson is planning a return to politics.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1891061156199989578
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,937
    Kemi is obviously a bit rubbish. What I can’t fathom is the mind blowing gap between her opinion of her own talent and everyone else’s. She carries on like she thinks she’s Elvis. It’s bizarre.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,515

    Tory are a bit like Man Utd. Once a highly successful force who always in the running. But now rotten to the core, lacking talent and no matter how many managerial switches they make, they are still really quite shit and totally devoid of new ideas.

    Ouch. Harsh but sadly true.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 791
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    First?

    On topic, what is the point? It is not as if the Tories have a David Cameron or George Osborne (let alone both) to make the party relevant and coherent again sitting in the wings. Just remember that the alternative was Jenrick. That was the best they could come up with.

    Just look at the bar chart (and commentary) I've added.
    Thought you were away this weekend?

    What the Tories really need is Osborne to come back into front line politics but he seems to be enjoying life making serious money and being an incisive commentator from the side lines. Penny was promoting herself yesterday and seems keen to get back but Osborne seems to have moved on, sadly. Cameron's greatest strength was having someone like that to watch his back. None of these others had that. Who does Kemi have?
    Osborne was pantomime villain levels of unpopular when he was CoE, I can't see him improving their chances.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,159
    God knows I’m no friend of the Conservatives but this is absurd.

    The Party experienced in July 2024 its worst defeat under universal suffrage - the only saving grace was it finished second in terms of votes and seats making it, by most definitions, still the credible alternative Government.

    Coming to terms with such a defeat doesn’t take seven months, it might need seven years or many more. There’s a more than reasonable argument even though the traditional principles of One Nation Toryism may seem irrelevant now their day will inevitably return when people grow tired of tedious populism and want more sensible politics.

    The Conservatives must prepare for that and be ready to explain conservatism for the 2030s and beyond.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,845
    edited February 16
    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    Is he allocating the money to lease Diego Garcia as defence spending?
    Not sure £90 million a year would make much difference to the numbers.
    Isn’t your point part of the problem? Everyone says “£90m is nothing in the big picture” except that all these £90 millions that aren’t that big add up and are collectively big.

    Think what you can buy for the military with £90m - how many machine guns, bullets, shells. It’s over 69,000 SA-80 machine guns for example.

    All these figures can be used and depending on where you sit, £90m for the army might be better than £90m to Mauritius.
    I agree. £90M UK spending just to little Mauritius every year for 99 years , just to lease back one island on behalf of American “friends”, seems way over the top to me! In defence spending - which yes surely the budget this must come out of as what other way does taxpayer enjoy leasing this island other than strong UK defence from it - it’s exactly same cost of keeping just one of our carriers in service every year.

    £90M is Still £40M lower than Liverpool FC’s annual £130M wage budget, for another comparison of how Ox guzzling UK society operates in 2025 though.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,561
    Foxy said:

    She is increasingly looking like a dud, but the Tories have to stick with Badenoch for at least a year. It's not as if there aren't any elections looming so poor polling is not really an issue yet.

    It's not as if there is any obvious alternative path open to them.

    I never get to see PMQs but by all account, and not just from people like yourself who are not Tories, her performance is poor and not getting any better.

    Maybe a caretaker in the form of a Michael Howard character, if there is one. I don’t know what the best choice for them is. It is hard to criticise labour when their 14 year record is so mediocre.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,887
    edited February 16
    Jonathan said:

    Kemi is obviously a bit rubbish. What I can’t fathom is the mind blowing gap between her opinion of her own talent and everyone else’s. She carries on like she thinks she’s Elvis. It’s bizarre.

    The Triggernometry interview she did last week was a classic of this. She absolutely tanked it in a setting where the interviewers are going to let you explain you position and even they were quite incredulous of her position as both having been amazing in government (stopped by the blob) but also unable to give any policy positions now because as an engineer....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152
    DavidL said:

    What Kemi needs to do is some serious, hard thinking about what the Tories actually want from power beyond power itself. She should be setting up groups to think about what we need to do as a country on topics like social care, health, incentivising growth, defence, trade, immigration etc etc. Don't waste the time in opposition: use it to think.

    At the moment its all a bit self indulgent, attacking a government which in most respects is doing pretty much what they did in government having lost their way and being mocked for these reasons. If Kemi can't have an Osborne she needs a Keith Joseph or Geoffrey Howe to bring forward ideas and new thinking. She needs to define herself in the public mind. She has barely started that.

    Kemi has at times hinted at that. She has mooted reducing maternity benefits, and in the past has criticised the triple lock.

    She lacks the authority in the party to carry through that sort of thinking, but if she does want lower taxes, she needs to find some benefits to cut first. These need to be better thought through than the antics of DOGEs teenage scribblers.

    The Tories best chance at the next election is to put forward a credible economic manifesto, as it is unlikely that Reform will, and it will be poor economic performance that is Labour's vulnerability.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,561
    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    'Look, I'm not even going to go there, Trevor'

    Shadow Foreign Secretary Dame @pritipatel pushes back on rumours that former PM Boris Johnson is planning a return to politics.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1891061156199989578

    That’s hardly pushing back

    The last thing we need is the return of Boris.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,515
    I really think we should have learned from Hague who was both witty and incisive at PMQs that they really don't matter a damn. What matters is having a story to tell that at least 40% of the population can relate to and agree with, even if they are not "natural" Tories.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619
    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    She is increasingly looking like a dud, but the Tories have to stick with Badenoch for at least a year. It's not as if there aren't any elections looming so poor polling is not really an issue yet.

    It's not as if there is any obvious alternative path open to them.

    I never get to see PMQs but by all account, and not just from people like yourself who are not Tories, her performance is poor and not getting any better.

    Maybe a caretaker in the form of a Michael Howard character, if there is one. I don’t know what the best choice for them is. It is hard to criticise labour when their 14 year record is so mediocre.
    The caretaker would have been James Cleverly. I'm not sure if he's still an option after he so cleverly manoeuvred himself out of the leadership contest.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,152
    Taz said:

    Dopermean said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    First?

    On topic, what is the point? It is not as if the Tories have a David Cameron or George Osborne (let alone both) to make the party relevant and coherent again sitting in the wings. Just remember that the alternative was Jenrick. That was the best they could come up with.

    Just look at the bar chart (and commentary) I've added.
    Thought you were away this weekend?

    What the Tories really need is Osborne to come back into front line politics but he seems to be enjoying life making serious money and being an incisive commentator from the side lines. Penny was promoting herself yesterday and seems keen to get back but Osborne seems to have moved on, sadly. Cameron's greatest strength was having someone like that to watch his back. None of these others had that. Who does Kemi have?
    Osborne was pantomime villain levels of unpopular when he was CoE, .
    Oh no he wasn’t.
    He's behind you!
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    edited February 16
    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,892

    Boiler sorted. Huzzah!

    Bit of an unchivalrous way to refer to Mrs Dancer but glad she’s ok now.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068

    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    Is he allocating the money to lease Diego Garcia as defence spending?
    Not sure £90 million a year would make much difference to the numbers.
    Isn’t your point part of the problem? Everyone says “£90m is nothing in the big picture” except that all these £90 millions that aren’t that big add up and are collectively big.

    Think what you can buy for the military with £90m - how many machine guns, bullets, shells. It’s over 69,000 SA-80 machine guns for example.

    All these figures can be used and depending on where you sit, £90m for the army might be better than £90m to Mauritius.
    I agree. £90M UK spending just to little Mauritius every year for 99 years , just to lease back one island on behalf of American “friends”, seems way over the top to me! In defence spending - which yes surely the budget this must come out of as what other way does taxpayer enjoy leasing this island other than strong UK defence from it - it’s exactly same cost of keeping just one of our carriers in service every year.

    £90M is Still £40M lower than Liverpool FC’s annual £130M wage budget, for another comparison of how Ox guzzling UK society operates in 2025 though.
    A single payment of £90m would have secured the AZN vaccine centre.

    A annual investment with a similar payoff would surely be vastly preferable to chucking the money away - if that is what we’re doing with this deal.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,900
    edited February 16
    Everyone knows @TheScreamingEagles would make a FAR better Tory leader than the Kembot!

    Good morning!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,336

    DavidL said:

    First?

    On topic, what is the point? It is not as if the Tories have a David Cameron or George Osborne (let alone both) to make the party relevant and coherent again sitting in the wings. Just remember that the alternative was Jenrick. That was the best they could come up with.

    Just look at the bar chart (and commentary) I've added.
    Apart from the height of Johnson’s bar, it could also be a graph of comparative competence.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,561
    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619

    Jonathan said:

    Kemi is obviously a bit rubbish. What I can’t fathom is the mind blowing gap between her opinion of her own talent and everyone else’s. She carries on like she thinks she’s Elvis. It’s bizarre.

    The Triggernometry interview she did last week was a classic of this. She absolutely tanked it in a setting where the interviewers are going to let you explain you position and even they were quite incredulous of her position as both having been amazing in government (stopped by the blob) but also unable to give any policy positions now because as an engineer....
    I find the engineer thing hilarious. If Badenoch actually was an engineer she would have killed dozens of people by now because she's so careless.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    Taz said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    'Look, I'm not even going to go there, Trevor'

    Shadow Foreign Secretary Dame @pritipatel pushes back on rumours that former PM Boris Johnson is planning a return to politics.

    https://x.com/SkyNews/status/1891061156199989578

    That’s hardly pushing back

    The last thing we need is the return of Boris.
    If they bring back the man so responsible for the Boriswave it is actually named after him then they will be giving up entirely
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,937
    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Your crush on Jenrick is curious.
  • Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 43,883
    edited February 16
    She has the first name business sorted. She seems to be "Kemi" to one and all. So that's the makings of a brand.

    What is it though? What is "Kemi"?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,902
    FF43 said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    She is increasingly looking like a dud, but the Tories have to stick with Badenoch for at least a year. It's not as if there aren't any elections looming so poor polling is not really an issue yet.

    It's not as if there is any obvious alternative path open to them.

    I never get to see PMQs but by all account, and not just from people like yourself who are not Tories, her performance is poor and not getting any better.

    Maybe a caretaker in the form of a Michael Howard character, if there is one. I don’t know what the best choice for them is. It is hard to criticise labour when their 14 year record is so mediocre.
    The caretaker would have been James Cleverly. I'm not sure if he's still an option after he so cleverly manoeuvred himself out of the leadership contest.
    Cleverly is favourite as next Tory leader on Betfair.
    Second favourite is Boris!
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,336

    Boiler sorted. Huzzah!

    The Dancer who came in from the cold.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,662
    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Doesn't sound very stealthy to me from that report.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    edited February 16
    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
  • novanova Posts: 715
    Electorally, it's almost pointless to start worrying. We're four and a half years away from an election, and no-one genuinely knows how that will play out for Labour. They were always playing a long game, and even a relatively small improvement to NHS waiting times, new house building, net zero, etc. will probably cement a second term, if there aren't any major economic shocks.

    If things don't improve, then Badenoch may just look better, or a new leader could come in, and could probably benefit from coming in close to the election.

    I assume the worry is that Reform will be in the position to take over if Labour do fail, and that they need to see off that threat quickly. However, I'm not sure Reform have that broad an appeal. We saw that Labour did incredibly well from a relatively small vote share, but that appears to be because the anti-Labour feeling was relatively low, so they, and the Lib Dems were able to easily swap votes and hoover up seats. Reform could hit the same overall number of votes, but they'll still likely suffer from the same problem as the Tories in 2024 - that anti-Reform voting will be stronger and they'll be facing a coalition of voters.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,214

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
    Inflationary and not stealthy.

    The example given in the article of extending the freeze on thresholds are the obvious ones.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,776
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    Jonathan said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Your crush on Jenrick is curious.
    He does look like the guy from the Killers…

    However my crush is not homoerotic - I tried being gay once - ick

    No I genuinely believe he has raw talent. The common touch allied with a cold calculating brain. If the Tories are ever going to recover it will be with a bruiser like him

    I cannot see that anywhere else. Cleverly is a friendly void. Hunt lol. Stride lol. Tugendhat ffs. They are
    bereft

    But maybe his chance has gone and the Tories will once again choose the wrong person after this wrong person and then they are finished forever. Fine by me

    Bring on the Nigel
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,662
    kinabalu said:

    She has the first name business sorted. She seems to be "Kemi" to one and all. So that's the makings of a brand.

    What is it though? What is "Kemi"?

    An anagram of Mike.
    That's about it.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,121

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Doesn't sound very stealthy to me from that report.
    keeping allowances at the same level beyond 2028/9 is definitely a stealth increase but it doesn't solve any of today's problems - it fixes some from 2029 onwards and gives a bit more wiggle room but that's it..

    Equally it will also mean pensioners will be paying it on their basic pension - as that is going to hit the £12570 sooner than then...
  • Jonathan said:

    Kemi is obviously a bit rubbish. What I can’t fathom is the mind blowing gap between her opinion of her own talent and everyone else’s. She carries on like she thinks she’s Elvis. It’s bizarre.

    It isn’t just her. It’s the party. The natural party of government doesn’t get to be the natural party of government without being supremely confident. And for a long time that confidence was rooted in reality.

    In more recent times? The leaders bar chart says it all. A succession of unelectable idiots who had the misfortune of being in office thanks to the efforts of someone before them. Getting further and further and further away from being seen as anything suitable for government.
  • eekeek Posts: 29,121
    kinabalu said:

    She has the first name business sorted. She seems to be "Kemi" to one and all. So that's the makings of a brand.

    What is it though? What is "Kemi"?

    Something that is Quiet and completely useless?
  • eekeek Posts: 29,121

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
    Would have the benefit of encouraging people to switch to EVs but it won't raise that much money as the tax take there is decreasing and no replacement has appeared...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372
    edited February 16

    Jonathan said:

    Kemi is obviously a bit rubbish. What I can’t fathom is the mind blowing gap between her opinion of her own talent and everyone else’s. She carries on like she thinks she’s Elvis. It’s bizarre.

    It isn’t just her. It’s the party. The natural party of government doesn’t get to be the natural party of government without being supremely confident. And for a long time that confidence was rooted in reality.

    In more recent times? The leaders bar chart says it all. A succession of unelectable idiots who had the misfortune of being in office thanks to the efforts of someone before them. Getting further and further and further away from being seen as anything suitable for government.
    I wonder how the Tories compare with Slab in the leader-month stakes? Without checking the data, I'd guess, not much better if even that.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,336
    DavidL said:

    What Kemi needs to do is some serious, hard thinking about what the Tories actually want from power beyond power itself. She should be setting up groups to think about what we need to do as a country on topics like social care, health, incentivising growth, defence, trade, immigration etc etc. Don't waste the time in opposition: use it to think.

    At the moment its all a bit self indulgent, attacking a government which in most respects is doing pretty much what they did in government having lost their way and being mocked for these reasons. If Kemi can't have an Osborne she needs a Keith Joseph or Geoffrey Howe to bring forward ideas and new thinking. She needs to define herself in the public mind. She has barely started that.

    The Tories have four years to rebuild. They should take the time to figure out:
    Where they are.
    Where they want to be.
    How to get there.
    Who will enable them to get there.

    Short term fixes are pointless. It won’t matter if Reform are 20% ahead in the polls next year. There won’t be an election next year.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,619
    edited February 16
    DavidL said:

    I really think we should have learned from Hague who was both witty and incisive at PMQs that they really don't matter a damn. What matters is having a story to tell that at least 40% of the population can relate to and agree with, even if they are not "natural" Tories.

    I think this is a problem for Labour as well as the Conservatives. Who do you think your party would make life better for, and why?

    In the Conservatives case the target would be a fifty year plus person end of career with older or grown up children. Concerns: job security, inheritance and healthcare provision. Those are the topics you go hard on and develop friendly policies for.

    Labour: thirty somethings, possibly starting a family, likely still renting. Your topics: childcare, schools, rents
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,892
    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    Is he allocating the money to lease Diego Garcia as defence spending?
    Not sure £90 million a year would make much difference to the numbers.
    Isn’t your point part of the problem? Everyone says “£90m is nothing in the big picture” except that all these £90 millions that aren’t that big add up and are collectively big.

    Think what you can buy for the military with £90m - how many machine guns, bullets, shells. It’s over 69,000 SA-80 machine guns for example.

    All these figures can be used and depending on where you sit, £90m for the army might be better than £90m to Mauritius.
    I agree. £90M UK spending just to little Mauritius every year for 99 years , just to lease back one island on behalf of American “friends”, seems way over the top to me! In defence spending - which yes surely the budget this must come out of as what other way does taxpayer enjoy leasing this island other than strong UK defence from it - it’s exactly same cost of keeping just one of our carriers in service every year.

    £90M is Still £40M lower than Liverpool FC’s annual £130M wage budget, for another comparison of how Ox guzzling UK society operates in 2025 though.
    A single payment of £90m would have secured the AZN vaccine centre.

    A annual investment with a similar payoff would surely be vastly preferable to chucking the money away - if that is what we’re doing with this deal.
    Indeed, it’s one of those things where I think civil servants and governments lose any sense of money. They see departmental budgets and tax takes in the billions and stop being able to really realise that tens of millions, even millions, deployed well are not only still huge sums of money that people worked hard for to generate the tax, but can also have bigger effects than some huge spends.

    Is buying a few hundred thousand infantry rifles and training a few hundred thousand people to use them and pay them a stipend to keep training so we have people who know how to shoot in an emergency which might cost, say £300m over many years better than spending it on 40 tanks?

    It’s probably easier in the minds of MOD people to think of spending a billion on 150 odd tanks as good as these are big objects and a billion isn’t that big a deal on the gov balance sheet.

    So 90m a year to Mauritius can be used better by the army, or specialist medical units, or helping clothe or feed kids who need help. Unfortunately I think a lot of MPs and Civil Servants just lose all sense of money once in place.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,776
    edited February 16
    FPT

    Reading the Sun leak, I'm going to make a few surmises:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/33399607/kemi-badenoch-tory-leadership/

    In my opinion it's the wets again. This is usually the source of most stabby briefings, right wingers tend to be more public, but the real reason I think that is the language used. "Keir is getting better" is very friendly to the Labour leader, using first name terms and complimenting his performance. This person almost seems ready to cross the floor. A more right wing leak might have read "Starmer is dreadful at PMQs but she can't even seem to beat him."

    That there's nothing about policy is also suspicious. Just that she needs to "listen to her team". So I think this is likely to be one of the centrist no-marks. Of course it could be Jenrick, who is also known to be pretty devious, but I just don't see him being the assassin - he would want to keep his own hands clean. At a stretch it could be an ally - but the leak would be more about the challenge from Reform, not how great 'Keir' is at PMQs.

    The medium is also telling - The Murdoch press. It's all very Gove. Very the people that engineered Kemi into place to start with.

    Despite saying that Kemi wasn't up to it from day 1, I do feel a bit sorry for her now with the Tory backbiting operation in full swing. She's trying to please everyone and pleasing no-one.

  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
    In interviews. A lot of examples where he’s gone in with a fact or an answer to a policy question, been probed on it and then fluffed his lines or contradicted himself.

    There are a few examples that you can find YouTube vids of, mostly from the last 12 months since he came to prominence but I can remember some very awkward Today outings when he was a minister (and that time he ducked a commons question on his planning scandal and sent his deputy).

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
    In interviews. A lot of examples where he’s gone in with a fact or an answer to a policy question, been probed on it and then fluffed his lines or contradicted himself.

    There are a few examples that you can find YouTube vids of, mostly from the last 12 months since he came to prominence but I can remember some very awkward Today outings when he was a minister (and that time he ducked a commons question on his planning scandal and sent his deputy).

    Citations or you’re talking nonsense
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,372
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
    In interviews. A lot of examples where he’s gone in with a fact or an answer to a policy question, been probed on it and then fluffed his lines or contradicted himself.

    There are a few examples that you can find YouTube vids of, mostly from the last 12 months since he came to prominence but I can remember some very awkward Today outings when he was a minister (and that time he ducked a commons question on his planning scandal and sent his deputy).

    Citations or you’re talking nonsense
    There's this chap on PB which replies to such demands by telling people to look things up themselves.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,776
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    I really think we should have learned from Hague who was both witty and incisive at PMQs that they really don't matter a damn. What matters is having a story to tell that at least 40% of the population can relate to and agree with, even if they are not "natural" Tories.

    I think this is a problem for Labour as well as the Conservatives. Who do you think your party would make life better for, and why?

    In the Conservatives case the target would be a fifty year plus person end of career with older or grown up children. Concerns: job security, inheritance and healthcare provision. Those are the topics you go hard on and develop friendly policies for.

    Labour: thirty somethings, possibly starting a family, likely still renting. Your topics: childcare, schools, rents
    It's the economy. The economy is at the root of all these things. With the ability to defend borders being a close second, or increasing GDP is a worthless exercise.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,198
    As a special Sunday treat, here's a slightly shorter than usual Undercutters podcast looking at whether F1 can live up to the hype in 2025:

    https://undercutters.podbean.com/e/will-the-2025-formula-1-season-live-up-to-the-hype/
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
    That's the least stealthy tax possible. The price is advertised in giant neon letters every 2 miles or so.

    (If the total cost of petrol had kept pace with inflation since 2010, it would now be 178p per litre. A real terms cut of 21%).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,887
    edited February 16
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
    Would have the benefit of encouraging people to switch to EVs but it won't raise that much money as the tax take there is decreasing and no replacement has appeared...
    Short term its not insignificant amount of money,

    Allowing Hunt’s 5p cut to expire this Spring would save £10 billion over the next four years. Letting fuel duty rise with inflation would add an additional £5 billion.

    https://www.smf.co.uk/commentary_podcasts/the-chancellor-can-save-15-billion-by-allowing-fuel-duty-cuts-to-expire/

    Not saying its a great idea, but you can see the temptation for a chancellor who has boxed herself in by ruling out so many of the usual levers. Would buy plenty of uniforms for all the new squaddies been sent to peacekeep in Ukraine.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,493
    The Sunday Rawnsley, curiously not obsessing over crazy Kemi this breezy morning:

    It was with his trademark contempt for his country’s traditional allies that the US president blindsided them by announcing that he had initiated peace negotiations with Vladimir Putin over the heads of Ukraine and the European members of Nato. The UK received no more warning of this bombshell than anyone else. So much for the vaunted “special relationship”. Humiliated and anguished, European leaders are crying “betrayal”. The UK government is not adding its voice to that charge in public, but it privately agrees.

    The biggest surprise is that so many people claim to be surprised. We knew that this US president despises America’s historic allies among the European democracies as he disdains the architecture of international security that his predecessors built. His geopolitics is one in which carnivorous great powers cut deals with each other and the smaller ones fall into line or get crushed underfoot. Europeans are right to be angry with Trump, but they should also be furious with themselves. They are to blame for leaving their continent so vulnerable to this danger-infused turn in world events.

    It is not that Europe lacks the resources to protect itself without US assistance. The means are there; what’s been lacking is the will. Defence spending is about to become a lively issue in British politics. George Robertson...has been leading a strategic defence review. His grim findings have just been delivered to the desks of the defence secretary and the prime minister.

    John Healey, the defence secretary, has effectively conceded that [Britain is not adequately resourcing its security] already by decrying the “hollowed-out” armed forces left behind by the Tories, a “dire inheritance” which includes the smallest army since the Napoleonic wars and an air force losing pilots faster than it can train replacements.

    People in a position to know tell me that Sir Keir is becoming swayed by the case to spend more. It is going to take a lot of effort to shift the dial, but the need to do so is becoming pressing. There’s an old diplomatic saw: “If you’re not at the table, you’ll probably be on the menu.” In this era of international relations, exemplified by Trump seeking to do a strongman-to-strongman deal with Putin to carve up Ukraine, the law of the jungle is beginning to prevail. If the UK and the rest of Europe don’t want their vital interests to be on the menu, we’re going to have to stump up the cost of a seat at the table.





  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    edited February 16
    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
    In interviews. A lot of examples where he’s gone in with a fact or an answer to a policy question, been probed on it and then fluffed his lines or contradicted himself.

    There are a few examples that you can find YouTube vids of, mostly from the last 12 months since he came to prominence but I can remember some very awkward Today outings when he was a minister (and that time he ducked a commons question on his planning scandal and sent his deputy).

    Citations or you’re talking nonsense
    There are lots, of varying picture and sound qualities, and I’m not going to curate them for you here just type “jenrick car crash interview” into google videos.

    But here’s one of the more embarrassing ones on one of the topics that makes him squirm the most. An extended illustration of Jenrick in policy interview rather than tirade mode.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04gg_6P5RjM

    And citation for the commons question dodge.

    https://www.cityam.com/robert-jenrick-ducks-questioning-on-his-role-in-unlawful-planning-decision/
  • Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
    That's the least stealthy tax possible. The price is advertised in giant neon letters every 2 miles or so.

    (If the total cost of petrol had kept pace with inflation since 2010, it would now be 178p per litre. A real terms cut of 21%).
    I wasn't suggesting it was stealthy (certainly not in the short term).
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    edited February 16
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
    That's the least stealthy tax possible. The price is advertised in giant neon letters every 2 miles or so.

    (If the total cost of petrol had kept pace with inflation since 2010, it would now be 178p per litre. A real terms cut of 21%).
    The time to do it was last Autumn’s budget. Everyone was expecting un unfreezing. Pump prices weee low. Reeves fluffed it. Now if she does it everyone will notice.
  • AnthonyTAnthonyT Posts: 114
    If you want to tax assets, CGT when properties are sold is the obvious one. No issues with valuation and the money is there.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
    In interviews. A lot of examples where he’s gone in with a fact or an answer to a policy question, been probed on it and then fluffed his lines or contradicted himself.

    There are a few examples that you can find YouTube vids of, mostly from the last 12 months since he came to prominence but I can remember some very awkward Today outings when he was a minister (and that time he ducked a commons question on his planning scandal and sent his deputy).

    Citations or you’re talking nonsense
    There's this chap on PB which replies to such demands by telling people to look things up themselves.
    No, there’s a difference between restating an obvious fact - easily provable - and making airy fairy and contentious claims - hard to prove - and refusing to provide evidence. But maybe @TimS has now done this. I haven’t reread the thread
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527
    edited February 16
    TimS said:

    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    FT reporting Reeves looking at some stealth taxes in March.

    https://x.com/merrynsw/status/1890712923632185519?s=61

    Fuel duty has to be the obvious one.
    That's the least stealthy tax possible. The price is advertised in giant neon letters every 2 miles or so.

    (If the total cost of petrol had kept pace with inflation since 2010, it would now be 178p per litre. A real terms cut of 21%).
    The time to do it was last Autumn’s budget. Everyone was expecting un unfreezing. Pump prices weee low. Reeves fluffed it. Now if she does it everyone will notice.
    It's ridiculous. The freeze has already reduced revenues by over £100 billion, and will be up to £200 billion by the end of this parliament. It's a significant tax cut for richer people, who are much more likely to own a car, and drive the most number of miles a year.

    HS2 to Manchester was a paltry £37 billion in comparison.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
    In interviews. A lot of examples where he’s gone in with a fact or an answer to a policy question, been probed on it and then fluffed his lines or contradicted himself.

    There are a few examples that you can find YouTube vids of, mostly from the last 12 months since he came to prominence but I can remember some very awkward Today outings when he was a minister (and that time he ducked a commons question on his planning scandal and sent his deputy).

    Citations or you’re talking nonsense
    There are lots, of varying picture and sound qualities, and I’m not going to curate them for you here just type “jenrick car crash interview” into google videos.

    But here’s one of the more embarrassing ones on one of the topics that makes him squirm the most. An extended illustration of Jenrick in policy interview rather than tirade mode.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04gg_6P5RjM

    And citation for the commons question dodge.

    https://www.cityam.com/robert-jenrick-ducks-questioning-on-his-role-in-unlawful-planning-decision/
    I’m reminded of the funniest bit in that affair. Admitting “apparent bias” as if he was in the third person. From the CityAM article:

    Jenrick admitted that he had unlawfully approved the planning application due to “apparent bias”, but he denies that he had accepted party donations for a favourable decision.

    (Desmond sat next to Jenrick at dinner just before he overturned the decision, and popped 12k into party coffers a couple of
    weeks afterwards).
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527
    AnthonyT said:

    If you want to tax assets, CGT when properties are sold is the obvious one. No issues with valuation and the money is there.

    And make other assets relatively more attractive for investment.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    First?

    On topic, what is the point? It is not as if the Tories have a David Cameron or George Osborne (let alone both) to make the party relevant and coherent again sitting in the wings. Just remember that the alternative was Jenrick. That was the best they could come up with.

    Just look at the bar chart (and commentary) I've added.
    Thought you were away this weekend?

    What the Tories really need is Osborne to come back into front line politics but he seems to be enjoying life making serious money and being an incisive commentator from the side lines. Penny was promoting herself yesterday and seems keen to get back but Osborne seems to have moved on, sadly. Cameron's greatest strength was having someone like that to watch his back. None of these others had that. Who does Kemi have?
    The brains of the Tory party - Michael Gove - is no longer an MP.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,073
    edited February 16
    AnthonyT said:

    If you want to tax assets, CGT when properties are sold is the obvious one. No issues with valuation and the money is there.

    Depends whether you want to encourage or discourage liquidity events.

    Taxing a sale discourages sales. Taxing an illiquid asset (eg with land value tax) encourages (forces) sales.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,473
    I still think Kemi was the best option available.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,068
    boulay said:

    Nigelb said:

    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    Is he allocating the money to lease Diego Garcia as defence spending?
    Not sure £90 million a year would make much difference to the numbers.
    Isn’t your point part of the problem? Everyone says “£90m is nothing in the big picture” except that all these £90 millions that aren’t that big add up and are collectively big.

    Think what you can buy for the military with £90m - how many machine guns, bullets, shells. It’s over 69,000 SA-80 machine guns for example.

    All these figures can be used and depending on where you sit, £90m for the army might be better than £90m to Mauritius.
    I agree. £90M UK spending just to little Mauritius every year for 99 years , just to lease back one island on behalf of American “friends”, seems way over the top to me! In defence spending - which yes surely the budget this must come out of as what other way does taxpayer enjoy leasing this island other than strong UK defence from it - it’s exactly same cost of keeping just one of our carriers in service every year.

    £90M is Still £40M lower than Liverpool FC’s annual £130M wage budget, for another comparison of how Ox guzzling UK society operates in 2025 though.
    A single payment of £90m would have secured the AZN vaccine centre.

    A annual investment with a similar payoff would surely be vastly preferable to chucking the money away - if that is what we’re doing with this deal.
    Indeed, it’s one of those things where I think civil servants and governments lose any sense of money. They see departmental budgets and tax takes in the billions and stop being able to really realise that tens of millions, even millions, deployed well are not only still huge sums of money that people worked hard for to generate the tax, but can also have bigger effects than some huge spends.

    Is buying a few hundred thousand infantry rifles and training a few hundred thousand people to use them and pay them a stipend to keep training so we have people who know how to shoot in an emergency which might cost, say £300m over many years better than spending it on 40 tanks?

    It’s probably easier in the minds of MOD people to think of spending a billion on 150 odd tanks as good as these are big objects and a billion isn’t that big a deal on the gov balance sheet.

    So 90m a year to Mauritius can be used better by the army, or specialist medical units, or helping clothe or feed kids who need help. Unfortunately I think a lot of MPs and Civil Servants just lose all sense of money once in place.
    Their ability to happily deploy billions wastefully - half completed then cancelled HS2; CCS etc - is yet worse.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,417
    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    Leon said:

    The Tories are probably doomed whatever they do

    But Jenrick is a bit of a star, is quick witted, amoral and nasty, and would - at least - give starmer a booting at PMQs, which would cheer them up if nowt else

    Sadly I can’t see Kemi improving. I feared she was a lightweight, I thought she was worth the risk anyway. But she’s turned out to be lightweight - indeed worse than feared

    Better to strike now while no one cares or notices

    Jenrick has a history like Badenoch of being unprepared and fluffing his lines. He’s had more car crashes than a rally driver. And he doesn’t do sharp wit. So I can imagine PMQs might not suit him either.

    He is much better at the pre-recorded piece to camera where he does the whole anger with a steely glint look.
    Hmmm. I haven't seen him fluff things up too much - in the HOC do you mean?
    In interviews. A lot of examples where he’s gone in with a fact or an answer to a policy question, been probed on it and then fluffed his lines or contradicted himself.

    There are a few examples that you can find YouTube vids of, mostly from the last 12 months since he came to prominence but I can remember some very awkward Today outings when he was a minister (and that time he ducked a commons question on his planning scandal and sent his deputy).

    Citations or you’re talking nonsense
    There are lots, of varying picture and sound qualities, and I’m not going to curate them for you here just type “jenrick car crash interview” into google videos.

    But here’s one of the more embarrassing ones on one of the topics that makes him squirm the most. An extended illustration of Jenrick in policy interview rather than tirade mode.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04gg_6P5RjM

    And citation for the commons question dodge.

    https://www.cityam.com/robert-jenrick-ducks-questioning-on-his-role-in-unlawful-planning-decision/
    Meh. A moderately bruising interview taking place live in the the middle of the first lockdown madness - and Jenrick also has to cope with loonies shouting at him from the silent london streets (london was especially crazy during that first lockdown)

    If that’s the best you can do then pfff
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633

    The brains of the Tory party - Michael Gove - is no longer an MP.

    The brains of the Tory party were expelled by BoZo and are therefore no longer MPs
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,845
    Nigelb said:
    The fisticuffs seem to be an expected part of the sport.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 791
    AnthonyT said:

    If you want to tax assets, CGT when properties are sold is the obvious one. No issues with valuation and the money is there.

    On primary residence?
    That would totally f*** labour mobility by meaning no home/mortgage owner ever moves home again, it's dis-incentivised already with fees and stamp duty.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104
    IanB2 said:

    The Sunday Rawnsley, curiously not obsessing over crazy Kemi this breezy morning:

    It was with his trademark contempt for his country’s traditional allies that the US president blindsided them by announcing that he had initiated peace negotiations with Vladimir Putin over the heads of Ukraine and the European members of Nato. The UK received no more warning of this bombshell than anyone else. So much for the vaunted “special relationship”. Humiliated and anguished, European leaders are crying “betrayal”. The UK government is not adding its voice to that charge in public, but it privately agrees.

    The biggest surprise is that so many people claim to be surprised. We knew that this US president despises America’s historic allies among the European democracies as he disdains the architecture of international security that his predecessors built. His geopolitics is one in which carnivorous great powers cut deals with each other and the smaller ones fall into line or get crushed underfoot. Europeans are right to be angry with Trump, but they should also be furious with themselves. They are to blame for leaving their continent so vulnerable to this danger-infused turn in world events.

    It is not that Europe lacks the resources to protect itself without US assistance. The means are there; what’s been lacking is the will. Defence spending is about to become a lively issue in British politics. George Robertson...has been leading a strategic defence review. His grim findings have just been delivered to the desks of the defence secretary and the prime minister.

    John Healey, the defence secretary, has effectively conceded that [Britain is not adequately resourcing its security] already by decrying the “hollowed-out” armed forces left behind by the Tories, a “dire inheritance” which includes the smallest army since the Napoleonic wars and an air force losing pilots faster than it can train replacements.

    People in a position to know tell me that Sir Keir is becoming swayed by the case to spend more. It is going to take a lot of effort to shift the dial, but the need to do so is becoming pressing. There’s an old diplomatic saw: “If you’re not at the table, you’ll probably be on the menu.” In this era of international relations, exemplified by Trump seeking to do a strongman-to-strongman deal with Putin to carve up Ukraine, the law of the jungle is beginning to prevail. If the UK and the rest of Europe don’t want their vital interests to be on the menu, we’re going to have to stump up the cost of a seat at the table.

    Morning, everyone. Brighter here today.

    However, as things stand at the moment, I would be too surprised to see Trump actually at the Russian May Day celebrations, and celebrating, with Putin, 'peace' in Ukraine.
    Meanwhile Zelenskyy will be seeking asylum in the West.
    The people notably not celebrating will be the Iranians who will not only lost a market for their drones but will have to reduce the price of their oil.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,232
    I fear The Wine Society may have over-estimated the open-mindedness of its customer base here:

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crm73z0np93o.amp

    "The French winemaker whose wines are illegal in his home country"
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,104

    Nigelb said:
    The fisticuffs seem to be an expected part of the sport.
    Keeping their balance on skates while exchanging quite hefty blows is impressive.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,768
    kinabalu said:

    She has the first name business sorted. She seems to be "Kemi" to one and all. So that's the makings of a brand.

    What is it though? What is "Kemi"?

    Sounds like a new street drug.

    'That Kemi has turned my mate into a zombie'
    'I hear Elon is on the Kemi now'
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,018
    Cookie said:

    I still think Kemi was the best option available.

    Best option for what? A fucking doorstop? Because Gig Lamps was not the best option for LotO. That was transparently obvious from the start. Jobert Renwick would have served alt-right c-nt all over the place by now. He is sufficiently devoid of any moral restraint so that he can take on Farage in appealing to people who have horrible kids called Jaxxon and is enough of an opportunistic schemer to cause SKS and his Red Reform project a few problems.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,527
    edited February 16
    Dopermean said:

    AnthonyT said:

    If you want to tax assets, CGT when properties are sold is the obvious one. No issues with valuation and the money is there.

    On primary residence?
    That would totally f*** labour mobility by meaning no home/mortgage owner ever moves home again, it's dis-incentivised already with fees and stamp duty.
    The clever reform would be to charge CGT on primary residence (and IHT), but abolish Stamp Duty/LBTT entirely. Make it roughly fiscally neutral.

    But like fuel duty, or WFP, the country would descend into hysterics.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,473
    Eabhal said:

    Dopermean said:

    AnthonyT said:

    If you want to tax assets, CGT when properties are sold is the obvious one. No issues with valuation and the money is there.

    On primary residence?
    That would totally f*** labour mobility by meaning no home/mortgage owner ever moves home again, it's dis-incentivised already with fees and stamp duty.
    The clever reform would be to charge CGT on primary residence (and IHT), but abolish Stamp Duty/LBTT entirely. Make it roughly fiscally neutral.
    Then why bother?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,632
    Dura_Ace said:

    Cookie said:

    I still think Kemi was the best option available.

    Best option for what? A fucking doorstop? Because Gig Lamps was not the best option for LotO. That was transparently obvious from the start. Jobert Renwick would have served alt-right c-nt all over the place by now. He is sufficiently devoid of any moral restraint so that he can take on Farage in appealing to people who have horrible kids called Jaxxon and is enough of an opportunistic schemer to cause SKS and his Red Reform project a few problems.
    Calm down.
  • DavidL said:

    What Kemi needs to do is some serious, hard thinking about what the Tories actually want from power beyond power itself. She should be setting up groups to think about what we need to do as a country on topics like social care, health, incentivising growth, defence, trade, immigration etc etc. Don't waste the time in opposition: use it to think.

    At the moment its all a bit self indulgent, attacking a government which in most respects is doing pretty much what they did in government having lost their way and being mocked for these reasons. If Kemi can't have an Osborne she needs a Keith Joseph or Geoffrey Howe to bring forward ideas and new thinking. She needs to define herself in the public mind. She has barely started that.

    The Tories have four years to rebuild. They should take the time to figure out:
    Where they are.
    Where they want to be.
    How to get there.
    Who will enable them to get there.

    Short term fixes are pointless. It won’t matter if Reform are 20% ahead in the polls next year. There won’t be an election next year.
    There are elections in Scotland and Wales next year. If Reform get ahead of the Tories in Scotland, or even top the poll in Wales, .. ??
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,633
    Interesting line from elsewhere

    "2025 is about what Europeans do, not what Americans say"

    Which is either a truly hopeful way of looking at it, or presages unfathomable despair...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 61,845
    Cookie said:

    I still think Kemi was the best option available.

    @Leon describes Jenrick as amoral and nasty.

    That's true, and why I couldn't (and didn't) vote for him.
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