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Could the Tories have their sixth leader in six years? – politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,505
    The hyperbolic breathless fundraising emails that Trump is apparently sending out to his supporters this weekend are - if genuine - truly bizarre.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting:

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    It is a strategic miscalculation. Without the fisheries protection cutters and the presidential band, Europe's defences against the Russian Federation could be fatally undermined.
    Ireland probably has more functioning vessels than we have :lol:
    Not quite. But if all this had happened a few years later we might very well already have scrapped the lot to fund pension payouts.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,839
    Nigelb said:

    S

    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    I spent nearly 5 weeks in hospital some years ago. The food was draeadful, not helped by the chemotherapy impacting my tastebuds. What I really objected too was the lunatic idea that every much must be nutritionally balanced. Why? If you are in for a short time it’s irrelevant. And if you are there longer then look at balance over a week, or a fortnight.
    And don’t get me started on the schedule. Breakfast at 7? It’s not like I’ve got much on for the rest of the day. Main meal at 12.30? Really? It’s 2025… and then the supper at 6… Truly a Victorian regime.
    I had some two months in hospital late 2022; two hospitals, one acute, one recuperation and, theoretically, physiotherapy.
    Food, according to my diet wasn't too bad, and served at reasonable times. Breakfast could be very hit-and-miss, though.
    When my father was in hospital, recently, the food was a waste of time. Since we trying to get him to eat, bought in home cooked as much as possible.
    Likewise, my dad would have died from malnutrition a couple of decades back, when he was hospitalised.
    It’s not just that the food was crap: it was also that the staff didn’t really notice if older patients actually ate, or even drank anything.

    Our family visited him every day, with food.
    Oh, are you not hungry today Mrs X?

    Ignoring the fact that Mrs X was either asleep or cannot reach the food.

    Hospital is the worst place to be ill.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,783
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    The moral colossus and arbiter of martial ardour that is Trump says that we’ve been freeloading for years. We should do it out of shame.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,804

    ydoethur said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    I see Starmer is planning to 'overrule' HMT/Reeves to get to 2.5% of GDP by the end of this Parliament, which is a tiny move up from this previously being policy but with no timetable. I also understand the SDR will be asked what can be done to better defend Britain within a 2.5% envelope.

    Sadly, I fear that's still inadequate. Defence chiefs have asked for 2.65% and I think that's reasonable.

    As Hunt said on his podcast the other day if the US totally withdrew from Europe all this 2.5% stuff would go away and we'd be talking about 6, 7, 8 or even 10% of GDP on defence.

    Because we'd have no choice.

    The value for money choice would be to spend an additional say 0.5% of our gdp financially supporting countries close to Russia that have cheaper manufacturing so that they can spend 10% of their GDP. And to allow Poland to go nuclear.

    If any country deserves to have nuclear weapons given its geopolitical situation and history it’s Poland.

    But in the meantime the more we can all suppress Russian GDP by not buying anything from them and making life difficult for anyone who does (including the USA it seems), the more we remove the financial driver for 90% of our defence needs in Europe.
    Which, of course, is similar to the Napoleonic Wars when we built continental coalitions by doing the same.

    But, I don't think there's any escaping the conclusion our Armed Forces are now woefully and dangerously undersized and underprepared, our army is essentially just a performative militia now with some special forces on top, and we're going to have to cough up.
    The country ought to. Starmer probably won't. Other priorities. The enormous social security budget, mostly.
    That's got to change, I'm afraid.

    Social security means nothing without national security.
    But the voters.

    Unless Trump brings enough economic pressure to bear to frighten him into compliance, he won't do it. There are no votes in defence and, as I said the other day, there won't be until the Russians have reached the Rhine and Britain and France have no cards to play save to threaten nuclear war. By which point it'll be a little late.
    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
    The problem is, there are always votes in raising spending, but precious few in raising taxes.
    I am inclined to think we *may* need to spend a bit more to get A LOT more, but just keep the current system and bung a massive chunk more money at the MOD? Piss off. Tell us precisely what you want the money for.
    Deterring your friends from attacking us.
    Still upset about earlier are we? Oh well.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,949
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    It’s about gearing up to destroy The Manhood of Russia with Trans Gay NATOism.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,662
    @bpolitics

    Breaking: Donald Trump asked the Supreme Court to let him to fire the head of the agency that protects government whistleblowers.

    https://x.com/bpolitics/status/1891222832987636207
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,901
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Jeez. Ukraine reduced. NATO cast down. Russia turned into a militarised war economy. What next? Maybe the Poles won't wait to find out?
  • pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting:

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    It is a strategic miscalculation. Without the fisheries protection cutters and the presidential band, Europe's defences against the Russian Federation could be fatally undermined.
    Ireland probably has more functioning vessels than we have :lol:
    Not quite. But if all this had happened a few years later we might very well already have scrapped the lot to fund pension payouts.
    I'm partial to the George Bernard Shaw, nice sleek-looking ship.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Because Russia has two separate strands of power projection:

    *) Firstly they interfere politically, in a big way.
    *) If the people reject their interference, they go for a more militaristic approach.

    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.
  • IanB2 said:

    The hyperbolic breathless fundraising emails that Trump is apparently sending out to his supporters this weekend are - if genuine - truly bizarre.

    To paraphrase Taylor Swift - grifters gonna grift, grift, grift, grift, grift.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151

    rkrkrk said:

    S

    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    I spent nearly 5 weeks in hospital some years ago. The food was draeadful, not helped by the chemotherapy impacting my tastebuds. What I really objected too was the lunatic idea that every much must be nutritionally balanced. Why? If you are in for a short time it’s irrelevant. And if you are there longer then look at balance over a week, or a fortnight.
    And don’t get me started on the schedule. Breakfast at 7? It’s not like I’ve got much on for the rest of the day. Main meal at 12.30? Really? It’s 2025… and then the supper at 6… Truly a Victorian regime.
    I had some two months in hospital late 2022; two hospitals, one acute, one recuperation and, theoretically, physiotherapy.
    Food, according to my diet wasn't too bad, and served at reasonable times. Breakfast could be very hit-and-miss, though.
    When my father was in hospital, recently, the food was a waste of time. Since we trying to get him to eat, bought in home cooked as much as possible.
    I think there's decent evidence that bringing in home cooked food speeds recovery
    Given there is a danger the patient might eat, and the large amount of evidence that eating food prevents death….

    In his ward, there were a several others. Who didn’t get daily visits. Their hospital meals often sat uneaten, next to them. They were all elderly, like my father.
    Exactly my experience.
    Saw several bodies wheeled out over a couple of weeks.

    I hope things have improved since.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086

    TimS said:

    I see Starmer is planning to 'overrule' HMT/Reeves to get to 2.5% of GDP by the end of this Parliament, which is a tiny move up from this previously being policy but with no timetable. I also understand the SDR will be asked what can be done to better defend Britain within a 2.5% envelope.

    Sadly, I fear that's still inadequate. Defence chiefs have asked for 2.65% and I think that's reasonable.

    As Hunt said on his podcast the other day if the US totally withdrew from Europe all this 2.5% stuff would go away and we'd be talking about 6, 7, 8 or even 10% of GDP on defence.

    Because we'd have no choice.

    The value for money choice would be to spend an additional say 0.5% of our gdp financially supporting countries close to Russia that have cheaper manufacturing so that they can spend 10% of their GDP. And to allow Poland to go nuclear.

    If any country deserves to have nuclear weapons given its geopolitical situation and history it’s Poland.

    But in the meantime the more we can all suppress Russian GDP by not buying anything from them and making life difficult for anyone who does (including the USA it seems), the more we remove the financial driver for 90% of our defence needs in Europe.
    Do you understand that someone reading this 'might' think that you are arguing, perhaps by habit, against the UK's national interest?

    1. You support a legal situation that makes manufacturing in the UK cost prohibitive, and that threatens the production of virgin steel, essential for the armaments industry, which is a key industry for us and (up until now) a success story.

    2. You suggest that rather than support this vital industry and its development in this country, we give half a percent of our GDP directly to countries 'that have cheaper manufacturing' - I mean why the fuck do you think they have cheap manufacturing in the first place? This actively accelerates our economical decline, and means that if somehow Russia does overrun Europe (which is presumably what you purport to be the danger, we lose those facilities altogether.

    3. In the meantime, we antagonise everyone who buys stuff from Russia (which is basically everyone except continental Europe), but we do nothing to restart our own hydrocarbon industry, which would be the only *actual* thing that would make us safe from Russian energy blackmail.

    I find your suggestions and thought process quite disturbing.

    You half misunderstand (wilfully, of course). The question is how we defend ourselves - and by ourselves I mean Europe - against a fascistic empire that wants to eliminate and subsume Eastern Europe.

    The front line states have cheaper weapons manufacturing because they are poorer than us and have lower wages.

    You moan that we might inhibit free trade with that fascistic empire and thereby piss off American appeasers. Then you bring it round to your favourite topic, net zero. Because you don’t believe climate change is a threat. And thus the actual gripe is revealed.

    We could drill every possible oil or gas well on sea and on land and our manufacturing would still be more expensive than in Ukraine, Moldova or the Baltics.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031
    edited February 16


    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.

    Well massively increasing conventional defence spending is going to do precisely fuck all to counter that threat so why, exactly, is the UK doing it?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Another excellent move from Trump.

    50% cut to military expenditure.

    I wouldn't have voted for him but his Corbynite stance on military and wars is really impressive.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151

    The Army needs to field a fully equipped warfighting division with another in reserve. So it can place a clear continental deterrent and sustain it on the central European plain for 6 months at a time.

    I can't see how it does it without regular forces going back up to 105-120k men.

    That's not going to be cheap and will probably take 5-7 years to achieve.

    We’ve trained 45k Ukrainian recruits since 2022.
    With our current run down establishment.

  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    It’s an important point, which is why it makes way more sense arming Eastern European states and letting them do the dirty work for us.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,091

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting:

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    It is a strategic miscalculation. Without the fisheries protection cutters and the presidential band, Europe's defences against the Russian Federation could be fatally undermined.
    Ireland probably has more functioning vessels than we have :lol:
    Eight ships and an establishment around 1000 vs over sixty and 32000 active personal says otherwise.
    Far cry from the era(s) when Britain really did rule the waves.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,438
    edited February 16

    Leon said:

    Cicero said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    I see Starmer is planning to 'overrule' HMT/Reeves to get to 2.5% of GDP by the end of this Parliament, which is a tiny move up from this previously being policy but with no timetable. I also understand the SDR will be asked what can be done to better defend Britain within a 2.5% envelope.

    Sadly, I fear that's still inadequate. Defence chiefs have asked for 2.65% and I think that's reasonable.

    As Hunt said on his podcast the other day if the US totally withdrew from Europe all this 2.5% stuff would go away and we'd be talking about 6, 7, 8 or even 10% of GDP on defence.

    Because we'd have no choice.

    The value for money choice would be to spend an additional say 0.5% of our gdp financially supporting countries close to Russia that have cheaper manufacturing so that they can spend 10% of their GDP. And to allow Poland to go nuclear.

    If any country deserves to have nuclear weapons given its geopolitical situation and history it’s Poland.

    But in the meantime the more we can all suppress Russian GDP by not buying anything from them and making life difficult for anyone who does (including the USA it seems), the more we remove the financial driver for 90% of our defence needs in Europe.
    Which, of course, is similar to the Napoleonic Wars when we built continental coalitions by doing the same.

    But, I don't think there's any escaping the conclusion our Armed Forces are now woefully and dangerously undersized and underprepared, our army is essentially just a performative militia now with some special forces on top, and we're going to have to cough up.
    The country ought to. Starmer probably won't. Other priorities. The enormous social security budget, mostly.
    That's got to change, I'm afraid.

    Social security means nothing without national security.
    But the voters.

    Unless Trump brings enough economic pressure to bear to frighten him into compliance, he won't do it. There are no votes in defence and, as I said the other day, there won't be until the Russians have reached the Rhine and Britain and France have no cards to play save to threaten nuclear war. By which point it'll be a little late.
    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
    Putin doesn't want go to the Rhine. He wants to absorb the Baltics, and subvert most of E Europe including Poland and poss the Scandis. He's an old man in a hurry with a war economy facing a demogrsphic cliff edge. With the US out of the picture very serious stuff could very likely happen.
    He wont succeed with Poland or the Scandinavian countries, but the Baltics are so small he could easily be tempted to conquer them and dare us to do something about it. The man is obviously trying to reassemble the Soviet Union, either by annexation or the establishment of secure client regimes.
    The Baltic has now got strategic depth with Sweden now in NATO and with the extremely capable armies of Finland and Poland on each flank. If Russia makes a move then K'grad is liberated in a few days and St Petersburg and Murmansk under immediate direct attack. A Russian attack could be defeated pretty quickly. The consequences for Putin could quite literally be fatal.
    You could have told us you wrote a whole SONG expressing your passionate views. And produced by ex-PBer @eadric?!

    https://www.udio.com/songs/jFyU2EzeZ9c3SSxyKVzYWG
    It interesting that Udio (or any of the other text to music apps) has never gone viral in the way text to image / video continuously do.
    Because you still need talent. As that song shows

    https://www.udio.com/songs/jFyU2EzeZ9c3SSxyKVzYWG

    It’s not just pressing a button, @cicero can REALLY sing and play guitar, and he’s got a real raw story to tell

    I often tease him but this time, no. Bravo
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting:

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    It is a strategic miscalculation. Without the fisheries protection cutters and the presidential band, Europe's defences against the Russian Federation could be fatally undermined.
    Ireland probably has more functioning vessels than we have :lol:
    Not quite. But if all this had happened a few years later we might very well already have scrapped the lot to fund pension payouts.
    I'm partial to the George Bernard Shaw, nice sleek-looking ship.
    The original anti-vaxer. Described it as 'witchcraft'.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    Dura_Ace said:


    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.

    Well massively increasing conventional defence spending is going to do exactly fuck all to counter that threat so why, exactly, is the UK doing it?
    Because if the sh*t does hit the fan, we're in a better situation than if we had not done it. Insurance.

    Those trained troops can start training the raw recruits; those welders welding armour can train other welders.

    Why are you so defeatist? Why are you sol willing to give in to a Russia whose language you know...

    Oh.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,408
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Leon said:

    Carnyx said:

    Leon said:

    Ooh. First pang of homesickness in 6 weeks.

    Cause? Looking at a photo of Wolverhampton School of Arts

    Obvs missing the heights of "British" or at least Brutalist culture.
    Yes. It’s a big lump of brutalism and there’s some campaign to save it. And I can sort of see why - it’s got a bit of character. Nothing amazing, but not nothing

    I do like the odd rare example of brutalism. One of my lesser architectural ambitions is to see Preston Bus Station - looks incredible in photos

    I like the Barbican, esp the serrated towers
    The Wolverhampton School of Arts sits nicely in its space. A much better example of Brutalism than many car paprks and bus stations.
    The Economist building on St James's Street is another example of brutalism worth keeping.
    1. The Economist Building is not brutalism

    2. It’s crap and ugly. Peter and Alison Smithson were two of the worst architects in human history. I wish they were still alive so I could urinate all over them as they pissed all over Britain
    NB I’ve checked and there is dispute here. Some people claim the Economist Building IS brutalist. But this is surely wrong

    “Brutalism” comes from the French phrase "béton brut," meaning "raw concrete." This refers to the unfinished, exposed concrete that is a hallmark of the
    style. The National Theatre IS brutalist. You can still see the impressions of the wooden cases that enclosed the raw concrete. A deliberate choice by Denys Lasdun

    The Economist Building has a concrete frame but it is clad in Portland Stone. Concrete plays little part in its expression. It is not “brutalist”. It is quite banal “international style” modernism
    Any views on Jonathan Meades - an exponent of brutalism? Always enjoyed his telly shows on architecture. Apparently lives in a Le Corbusier structure in Marseilles. His latest novel - Empty Wigs - is quite a bruiser, not for the faint- hearted.
    I think he's brilliant, I've watched nearly all of his TV shows. Available here.

    https://meadesshrine.blogspot.com

    He lives in that enormous Brutalist building in Marseille.
    That's missing a load of stuff. Especially his early The Victorian House which I rewatched recently.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    Apols of this is a duplicate.

    US
    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    That depends on the hospital, and on your definition of "really appetising".
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 53,592

    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.

    That's not how it works. To take one of the most high-profile examples, they didn't get Schroeder elected by manipulating German public opinion.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031

    Dura_Ace said:


    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.

    Well massively increasing conventional defence spending is going to do exactly fuck all to counter that threat so why, exactly, is the UK doing it?
    Because if the sh*t does hit the fan, we're in a better situation than if we had not done it. Insurance.

    With insurance one balances the cost of premium against the likelihood and consequences of the risk. The risk of the UK being in a shooting war with Russia is as close to zero as makes no difference. And if it did happen and it didn't go nuclear they would be overwhelmed in days. Unless they are sandbagging metaphorically as well as literally in their Novorossiya exploits.
  • pigeon said:

    Leon said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting:

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Can’t believe they haven’t invited the Taoiseach given the vast amounts valiant Ireland expends on defence
    It is a strategic miscalculation. Without the fisheries protection cutters and the presidential band, Europe's defences against the Russian Federation could be fatally undermined.
    Ireland probably has more functioning vessels than we have :lol:
    Eight ships and an establishment around 1000 vs over sixty and 32000 active personal says otherwise.
    Far cry from the era(s) when Britain really did rule the waves.
    According to my calculations (which are sometimes correct), we have the following large vessels:

    6 "Nucular" attack subs
    4 "Nucular" Ballistic subs
    2 Aircraft carriers
    2 Assault ships
    6 Destroyers
    9 Frigates
    8 large patrol vessels
    Total 37

    Trumpistan has by contrast:

    51 "Nucular" attack subs
    18 "Nucular" ballistic subs
    11 Aircraft carriers
    9 Helicopter carriers
    22 Assault ships
    9 Cruisers
    76 Destroyers
    25 Frigates
    37 Patrol/Littoral vessels
    Total 258
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    Is Putin a war monger?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    Half-agree, half-disagree.

    He's consistently against us and our allies, consistently in favour of our enemies.

    Russia wants land, it can invade and take it.

    Israel is attacked? It has no right to take land even when attacked first.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,821
    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    No one here can explain why, evidently, but quite a number of them are still all for it ...
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,576
    Wifey voted for all but three of the BAFTA category winners.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    HYUFD said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    I see Starmer is planning to 'overrule' HMT/Reeves to get to 2.5% of GDP by the end of this Parliament, which is a tiny move up from this previously being policy but with no timetable. I also understand the SDR will be asked what can be done to better defend Britain within a 2.5% envelope.

    Sadly, I fear that's still inadequate. Defence chiefs have asked for 2.65% and I think that's reasonable.

    As Hunt said on his podcast the other day if the US totally withdrew from Europe all this 2.5% stuff would go away and we'd be talking about 6, 7, 8 or even 10% of GDP on defence.

    Because we'd have no choice.

    The value for money choice would be to spend an additional say 0.5% of our gdp financially supporting countries close to Russia that have cheaper manufacturing so that they can spend 10% of their GDP. And to allow Poland to go nuclear.

    If any country deserves to have nuclear weapons given its geopolitical situation and history it’s Poland.

    But in the meantime the more we can all suppress Russian GDP by not buying anything from them and making life difficult for anyone who does (including the USA it seems), the more we remove the financial driver for 90% of our defence needs in Europe.
    Which, of course, is similar to the Napoleonic Wars when we built continental coalitions by doing the same.

    But, I don't think there's any escaping the conclusion our Armed Forces are now woefully and dangerously undersized and underprepared, our army is essentially just a performative militia now with some special forces on top, and we're going to have to cough up.
    The country ought to. Starmer probably won't. Other priorities. The enormous social security budget, mostly.
    That's got to change, I'm afraid.

    Social security means nothing without national security.
    But the voters.

    Unless Trump brings enough economic pressure to bear to frighten him into compliance, he won't do it. There are no votes in defence and, as I said the other day, there won't be until the Russians have reached the Rhine and Britain and France have no cards to play save to threaten nuclear war. By which point it'll be a little late.
    All the main parties support increased defence spending though, including Reform, as does Merz, likely next German Chancellor
    In theory. Where is the money going to come from in practice?

    We'll know they're serious only when they are prepared to upset voters to do it.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,408
    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    There have been a few 'celebrity chefs' down the years trying to highlight the poor quality of food in hospitals (and schools). Nothing much seems to have resulted from it though. I remember being quite nauseated watching someone microwaving an insipid frozen omelette to serve up to their 'eager' custodians.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,832

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting. Only Tusk from the post-expansion EU.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Nice try, but it's just a list of the most populous countries in Europe, except with Denmark instead of Romania.

    Or it's the top 10 European NATO members by defence budget, with Sweden and Norway missing.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 25,233
    geoffw said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

     

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    With the fried breakfast, I think it's more the vast amounts of salt and vegetable oil sometimes used in its creation that are the primary health risks, rather than the existence of meat in there.
    Indeed. Putting the meat in the air fryer is how I cook mine, no oil necessary then.
    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I’m intrigued how fat you were. So you have lost 5 stone, unless you are a big big chap that’s a huge amount of weight to lose voluntarily, what weight are you now?
    I peaked at 252lbs during lockdown. When I started my carnivore diet (Oct 2023) I was on 247 lbs.

    I'm now 177 lbs, so 70 down since I switched diet, 75 down from my peak.
    Can I ask how tall you are? Just seems like a massive weight shift. I’m guessing you aren’t looking anorexic at 12.5 stone?
    5'8" so, no, not anorexic. Gone from BMI of 38 to 27.
    …………… 38??????

    😳

    Fucking hell

    But bravo on bringing that down to 27. That’s seriously impressive work, my dude

    👏
    Thanks. No drugs or surgery, just a diet of the five important food groups: meat, cheese, eggs, milk and coffee.
    Do you know how/why your weight got so out of hand?

    You are under no obligation to answer. I’ve no desire to push buttons

    You should be on telly. That’s incredible weight loss, and without ozempic!
    Thanks. I've long struggled with my weight, the last time I weighed what I do now was about 15 years ago. I was typically around 220 and would diet and get it close to 200 but never got it down below 200.

    I was always active despite being overweight so never too concerned. Lockdown was bad for my health. Went from doing upto 20k steps a day to sub 4k. That's when my weight went up to 252 and I struggled to get it back down again before I switched my diet.

    Despite it being rather American, I took a long time ago to weighing in pounds alone. Easier to keep track using that as a decimal rather than messing around with stone conversions, and easier to notice differences when dieting than dealing with kg.
    But you calculate bmi with imperial units..?

    Just Google a calculator and it does it for you.

    I prefer metric on a philosophical basis, but know my height in an imperial one so what difference does it make. I could do the maths but it is easy enough to find a calculator online that takes weight in pounds and height in feet and inches.
    It would be nice to have a calculator get the square of height calculating only in feet and inches

    Nobody should get too hung up on BMI in any case. It is a poor measure.
    Well yes, but I was interested solely in the calculation - what is the square of 5'10" ?

    a*a + 2ab + b*b

    or (60+10)(60-10)
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,949
    Nigelb said:

    rkrkrk said:

    S

    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    I spent nearly 5 weeks in hospital some years ago. The food was draeadful, not helped by the chemotherapy impacting my tastebuds. What I really objected too was the lunatic idea that every much must be nutritionally balanced. Why? If you are in for a short time it’s irrelevant. And if you are there longer then look at balance over a week, or a fortnight.
    And don’t get me started on the schedule. Breakfast at 7? It’s not like I’ve got much on for the rest of the day. Main meal at 12.30? Really? It’s 2025… and then the supper at 6… Truly a Victorian regime.
    I had some two months in hospital late 2022; two hospitals, one acute, one recuperation and, theoretically, physiotherapy.
    Food, according to my diet wasn't too bad, and served at reasonable times. Breakfast could be very hit-and-miss, though.
    When my father was in hospital, recently, the food was a waste of time. Since we trying to get him to eat, bought in home cooked as much as possible.
    I think there's decent evidence that bringing in home cooked food speeds recovery
    Given there is a danger the patient might eat, and the large amount of evidence that eating food prevents death….

    In his ward, there were a several others. Who didn’t get daily visits. Their hospital meals often sat uneaten, next to them. They were all elderly, like my father.
    Exactly my experience.
    Saw several bodies wheeled out over a couple of weeks.

    I hope things have improved since.
    Given this was a few months ago…
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,880
    MattW said:

    geoffw said:

    pigeon said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

     

    Leon said:

    Leon said:

    boulay said:

    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    With the fried breakfast, I think it's more the vast amounts of salt and vegetable oil sometimes used in its creation that are the primary health risks, rather than the existence of meat in there.
    Indeed. Putting the meat in the air fryer is how I cook mine, no oil necessary then.
    boulay said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I’m intrigued how fat you were. So you have lost 5 stone, unless you are a big big chap that’s a huge amount of weight to lose voluntarily, what weight are you now?
    I peaked at 252lbs during lockdown. When I started my carnivore diet (Oct 2023) I was on 247 lbs.

    I'm now 177 lbs, so 70 down since I switched diet, 75 down from my peak.
    Can I ask how tall you are? Just seems like a massive weight shift. I’m guessing you aren’t looking anorexic at 12.5 stone?
    5'8" so, no, not anorexic. Gone from BMI of 38 to 27.
    …………… 38??????

    😳

    Fucking hell

    But bravo on bringing that down to 27. That’s seriously impressive work, my dude

    👏
    Thanks. No drugs or surgery, just a diet of the five important food groups: meat, cheese, eggs, milk and coffee.
    Do you know how/why your weight got so out of hand?

    You are under no obligation to answer. I’ve no desire to push buttons

    You should be on telly. That’s incredible weight loss, and without ozempic!
    Thanks. I've long struggled with my weight, the last time I weighed what I do now was about 15 years ago. I was typically around 220 and would diet and get it close to 200 but never got it down below 200.

    I was always active despite being overweight so never too concerned. Lockdown was bad for my health. Went from doing upto 20k steps a day to sub 4k. That's when my weight went up to 252 and I struggled to get it back down again before I switched my diet.

    Despite it being rather American, I took a long time ago to weighing in pounds alone. Easier to keep track using that as a decimal rather than messing around with stone conversions, and easier to notice differences when dieting than dealing with kg.
    But you calculate bmi with imperial units..?

    Just Google a calculator and it does it for you.

    I prefer metric on a philosophical basis, but know my height in an imperial one so what difference does it make. I could do the maths but it is easy enough to find a calculator online that takes weight in pounds and height in feet and inches.
    It would be nice to have a calculator get the square of height calculating only in feet and inches

    Nobody should get too hung up on BMI in any case. It is a poor measure.
    Well yes, but I was interested solely in the calculation - what is the square of 5'10" ?

    a*a + 2ab + b*b

    or (60+10)(60-10)
    eh?

  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    kamski said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting. Only Tusk from the post-expansion EU.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Nice try, but it's just a list of the most populous countries in Europe, except with Denmark instead of Romania.

    Or it's the top 10 European NATO members by defence budget, with Sweden and Norway missing.
    It's essentially the principals, with Denmark apparently acting as a joint representative for the Scandis.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,949
    MattW said:

    Apols of this is a duplicate.

    US

    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    That depends on the hospital, and on your definition of "really appetising".
    Put it in the contracts of all senior consultants and managers, that they have to eat at least 2 meals a day in the hospital. From the hospital kitchens, standard menu, provided free.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031
    Chris said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    No one here can explain why, evidently, but quite a number of them are still all for it ...
    I can see the justification for more investment in intelligence, psy-ops and cyber to counter asymmetric/grey threats but all the rest of is just the pb.com General Staff enjoying the sound of their boot heels on parquet floors.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    define 'opposed'? Gone on the streets to willy-wave about preventing? None.

    Opposed in theory - which is all we Internet warriors can do? Many. I mean, I've spoken about the Rohingya's on here in the past, and the cause of the Kurds (and that is *complex*). And the Armenians. If you were a real warrior against war, you would be apoplectic about Sudan and Ethiopia. Or Somalia. Or Yemen. Or many others.

    I even wrote a threader about the potential conflict between Venezuela and Guyana.

    I know those are not trendy for you, and trendy wars are all you care about. Or the Jews.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    Half-agree, half-disagree.

    He's consistently against us and our allies, consistently in favour of our enemies.

    Russia wants land, it can invade and take it.

    Israel is attacked? It has no right to take land even when attacked first.
    I opposed Putins invasion but Trump says the main reason was provocation from Ukraine wanting to join NATO. If you regard the US as our ally you are a baddie like Zelensky

    Israel took land in 1948 So attacked first is total bollocks. Palestine has a right in international law to fight the occupiers Israel doesn't have a right to commit genocide.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.

    Well massively increasing conventional defence spending is going to do exactly fuck all to counter that threat so why, exactly, is the UK doing it?
    Because if the sh*t does hit the fan, we're in a better situation than if we had not done it. Insurance.

    With insurance one balances the cost of premium against the likelihood and consequences of the risk. The risk of the UK being in a shooting war with Russia is as close to zero as makes no difference. And if it did happen and it didn't go nuclear they would be overwhelmed in days. Unless they are sandbagging metaphorically as well as literally in their Novorossiya exploits.
    You miss the political interference Russia has been attempting - successfully in some cases.

    It doesn't have to be a 'shooting war'. I'm curious about why someone as intelligent as yourself ignores the way Russia operates.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    Half-agree, half-disagree.

    He's consistently against us and our allies, consistently in favour of our enemies.

    Russia wants land, it can invade and take it.

    Israel is attacked? It has no right to take land even when attacked first.
    I opposed Putins invasion but Trump says the main reason was provocation from Ukraine wanting to join NATO. If you regard the US as our ally you are a baddie like Zelensky

    Israel took land in 1948 So attacked first is total bollocks. Palestine has a right in international law to fight the occupiers Israel doesn't have a right to commit genocide.

    Whom did Israel take land from in 1948?

    In 1948 Israel accepted the partition of land, but it was rejected by Transjordan and Egypt who invaded and attempted to wipe out Israel and annexed Palestine.

    Unfortunately for them, they lost the war.
  • kamski said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting. Only Tusk from the post-expansion EU.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Nice try, but it's just a list of the most populous countries in Europe, except with Denmark instead of Romania.

    Or it's the top 10 European NATO members by defence budget, with Sweden and Norway missing.
    Sky report on attendees

    https://news.sky.com/story/trump-putin-call-ukraine-war-peace-talks-moscow-zelenskyy-kremlin-live-sky-news-latest-12541713?postid=9119574#liveblog-body
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    Half-agree, half-disagree.

    He's consistently against us and our allies, consistently in favour of our enemies.

    Russia wants land, it can invade and take it.

    Israel is attacked? It has no right to take land even when attacked first.
    I opposed Putins invasion but Trump says the main reason was provocation from Ukraine wanting to join NATO
    Isn't it up to Ukraine whether or not they join NATO?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,832
    edited February 16
    pigeon said:

    kamski said:

    Interesting list of who’s attending Macron’s emergency meeting. Only Tusk from the post-expansion EU.

    https://x.com/visegrad24/status/1891210114780053587

    Leaders attending tomorrow’s European emergency meeting on Ukraine hosted by Macron in Paris:

    🇫🇷 Macron
    🇩🇪 Scholz
    🇬🇧 Starmer
    🇮🇹 Meloni
    🇵🇱 Tusk
    🇪🇸 Sánchez
    🇳🇱 Schoof
    🇩🇰 Frederiksen
    🇪🇺 von der Leyen
    🇪🇺 Costa
    NATO's Rutte

    Nice try, but it's just a list of the most populous countries in Europe, except with Denmark instead of Romania.

    Or it's the top 10 European NATO members by defence budget, with Sweden and Norway missing.
    It's essentially the principals, with Denmark apparently acting as a joint representative for the Scandis.
    Makes sense
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    So why do you support a war monger who's invaded and occupied parts of both Georgia AND Ukraine?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    Half-agree, half-disagree.

    He's consistently against us and our allies, consistently in favour of our enemies.

    Russia wants land, it can invade and take it.

    Israel is attacked? It has no right to take land even when attacked first.
    I opposed Putins invasion but Trump says the main reason was provocation from Ukraine wanting to join NATO. If you regard the US as our ally you are a baddie like Zelensky

    Israel took land in 1948 So attacked first is total bollocks. Palestine has a right in international law to fight the occupiers Israel doesn't have a right to commit genocide.

    "I opposed Putins invasion but Trump says the main reason was provocation from Ukraine wanting to join NATO."

    So you believe what Trump says?

    How the extreme left and extreme right meet...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    define 'opposed'? Gone on the streets to willy-wave about preventing? None.

    Opposed in theory - which is all we Internet warriors can do? Many. I mean, I've spoken about the Rohingya's on here in the past, and the cause of the Kurds (and that is *complex*). And the Armenians. If you were a real warrior against war, you would be apoplectic about Sudan and Ethiopia. Or Somalia. Or Yemen. Or many others.

    I even wrote a threader about the potential conflict between Venezuela and Guyana.

    I know those are not trendy for you, and trendy wars are all you care about. Or the Jews.
    You mix up Zionists and Jews again.

    You really should get some anti semitism training
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,108

    MattW said:

    Apols of this is a duplicate.

    US

    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    That depends on the hospital, and on your definition of "really appetising".
    Put it in the contracts of all senior consultants and managers, that they have to eat at least 2 meals a day in the hospital. From the hospital kitchens, standard menu, provided free.
    It’s some years since I worked in a hospital, or indeed worked at all, but it wasn’t unusual for senior staff to eat in the canteen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,623

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    Half-agree, half-disagree.

    He's consistently against us and our allies, consistently in favour of our enemies.

    Russia wants land, it can invade and take it.

    Israel is attacked? It has no right to take land even when attacked first.
    I opposed Putins invasion but Trump says the main reason was provocation from Ukraine wanting to join NATO. If you regard the US as our ally you are a baddie like Zelensky

    Israel took land in 1948 So attacked first is total bollocks. Palestine has a right in international law to fight the occupiers Israel doesn't have a right to commit genocide.

    "I opposed Putins invasion but Trump says the main reason was provocation from Ukraine wanting to join NATO."

    So you believe what Trump says?

    How the extreme left and extreme right meet...
    Trump and Corbyn are very different people.

    One pretends to be on the side of workers while taking large sums of money from fat cats, promotes cronies to key positions they're totally unequal to, claims to have actually won an election he lost and will sell out to the Russians in a heartbeat.

    The other actually won an election and is - unfortunately - now President of the United States.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    define 'opposed'? Gone on the streets to willy-wave about preventing? None.

    Opposed in theory - which is all we Internet warriors can do? Many. I mean, I've spoken about the Rohingya's on here in the past, and the cause of the Kurds (and that is *complex*). And the Armenians. If you were a real warrior against war, you would be apoplectic about Sudan and Ethiopia. Or Somalia. Or Yemen. Or many others.

    I even wrote a threader about the potential conflict between Venezuela and Guyana.

    I know those are not trendy for you, and trendy wars are all you care about. Or the Jews.
    You mix up Zionists and Jews again.

    You really should get some anti semitism training
    And a lot of anti-Semites hide behind being anti-Zionist.

    What issue do you have with my stated views on the situation in Israel/Palestine? I stated them just the other day...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    So why do you support a war monger who's invaded and occupied parts of both Georgia AND Ukraine?
    I don't

    I think you are mixing me up with Tony Blair and Peter Mandleson.

    The Messiah that is Jeremy Corbyn has been the most consistently critical politician of Putin.

    Pity you chose to support those who backed Putin when it was trendy to do so.

    Next
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Israel are the ones defending themselves, which they have every damned right to do. They were defending themselves in 1948, 1967, 2023 and still are.

    If Hamas lay down their arms, the war would be over.
    If Israel lay down their arms, every Jew "from the river to the sea" would be murdered.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    So why do you support a war monger who's invaded and occupied parts of both Georgia AND Ukraine?
    I don't

    I think you are mixing me up with Tony Blair and Peter Mandleson.

    Why are you supporting someone who's CURRENTLY occupying parts of both Georgia AND Ukraine?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,623
    “Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution; it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said in an interview with a Beirut-based TV channel last August. “We might be in for years and years of war in Ukraine.”

    He added: “What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.

    “This war is disastrous for the people of Ukraine, for the people of Russia, and for the safety and security of the whole world, and therefore there has to be much more effort put into peace.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/26/labour-left-breaks-with-jeremy-corbyn-over-sending-weapons-to-ukraine

    Just in case anyone thought Corbyn was actually anti-Putin.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    MattW said:

    Apols of this is a duplicate.

    US

    pigeon said:

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Whatever the rights and wrongs of the motivation I confess this is another of those topics that just riles me up irrationally - let the poor buggers in hospital keep their bloody sausages.

    These people are insane. How do we get rid of them?

    “We don't allow patients to smoke or drink so why should eating processed meat, a recognised carcinogen, be treated any differently?” #slipperyslope https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-14402239/Hospitals-processed-foods-cancer.html
    https://nitter.poast.org/cjsnowdon/status/1891160646374260994#m

    Utterly insane bollocks.

    Switching to a carnivore diet has done wonders for my health. Down 70 pounds now since I made the switch, pretty close to my goal weight now, and health is far better than it was. Get rid of plant-based crap.
    I don't think one has to share your carnivore based tastes to think letting people enjoy some fried breakfasts when very ill or dying is perhaps worth the risks.
    Or that its good for you.
    I don't think the kitchens in big hospitals are really set up to serve people with actually appetising food. Too many patients, and probably operating to a derisory budget per head. The meal times don't help either: when my husband was in hospital for a couple of days last year, his dinner was served at five o'clock and that was that for the night. I'm not sure of that was inspired by the eating habits of very elderly people or of nursery school infants, but regardless it was hardly helpful.
    That depends on the hospital, and on your definition of "really appetising".
    Put it in the contracts of all senior consultants and managers, that they have to eat at least 2 meals a day in the hospital. From the hospital kitchens, standard menu, provided free.
    It’s some years since I worked in a hospital, or indeed worked at all, but it wasn’t unusual for senior staff to eat in the canteen.
    It is, of course, quite possible that the food served in the staff canteen is better than what makes it to the wards, but I can't say more than that. Your remark triggers distant memories of my having had some meals in a hospital canteen many years ago, under circumstances I can no longer recall but are probably related to the employment of a long since retired relative there. I thought the canteen pretty decent, but what offerings were presented to the patients I don't know - save for the fact that this also triggers a distinct memory of my grandmother having once been presented with a smoked lentil sandwich for lunch, whilst residing in the same hospital as a patient. She thought it revolting. It certainly sounded revolting.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.

    Well massively increasing conventional defence spending is going to do exactly fuck all to counter that threat so why, exactly, is the UK doing it?
    Because if the sh*t does hit the fan, we're in a better situation than if we had not done it. Insurance.

    With insurance one balances the cost of premium against the likelihood and consequences of the risk. The risk of the UK being in a shooting war with Russia is as close to zero as makes no difference. And if it did happen and it didn't go nuclear they would be overwhelmed in days. Unless they are sandbagging metaphorically as well as literally in their Novorossiya exploits.
    You miss the political interference Russia has been attempting - successfully in some cases.

    It doesn't have to be a 'shooting war'. I'm curious about why someone as intelligent as yourself ignores the way Russia operates.


    Once again, increasing conventional defence spending, which is the subject under discussion does NOTHING to address the political interference and similar threats. One has to consider why you are hell-bent on directing resources away from the real threats and toward illusory ones to the great detriment of the country's security. I have my suspicions.
  • Wifey is three for three on the BAFTAs she voted for....

    If wifey did not tip them up on pb so we could bet on the BAFTAs, wifey is no Roger.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,804
    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    It’s an important point, which is why it makes way more sense arming Eastern European states and letting them do the dirty work for us.
    If Russia doesn't threaten us militarily, why is it 'our work' to contain it?

    They are clearly not a nice regime. Being their neighbour must be hell. Living there must be very disagreeable. But why 'them' especially, not Xi, not Erdogan, not the Saudis, not Al Shabab in Mozambique? The reason is because Russia has been the USA's number one foe, regardless of Republican or Democrat, for the past 15 years or so. The others, regardless of their evil, their brutality, their invasions, their scant regard for peoples' freedoms, have not. That is why Putin is public enemy No. 1, not just another gargoyle in a whole unpleasant gallery of them.

    If the USA vs. Russia situation changes, as it looks like it might, it's quite awkward for Europe's leaders, because it's no longer a competition to declare how dangerous Putin is (despite his failure to conquer Ukraine) because now the US doesn't give a shit. Just like it has never given a shit about the Saudis chopping people up, so you don't hear a peep about that from anyone.

    In the long run, if it sticks, we will all care about Russia a lot less, and move on to hating whoever is at the top of America's shitlist next. And Jessop will be haranguing us all to declare war on whoever that is.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 53,576

    Wifey is three for three on the BAFTAs she voted for....

    If wifey did not tip them up on pb so we could bet on the BAFTAs, wifey is no Roger.
    Can you bet on the BAFTAs?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:


    Those who concentrate on an 'amphibious invasion of Norfolk' are being silly. Russia are much more likely to try to get a pet politician and party into power, using Internet trolls to back them up.

    Well massively increasing conventional defence spending is going to do exactly fuck all to counter that threat so why, exactly, is the UK doing it?
    Because if the sh*t does hit the fan, we're in a better situation than if we had not done it. Insurance.

    With insurance one balances the cost of premium against the likelihood and consequences of the risk. The risk of the UK being in a shooting war with Russia is as close to zero as makes no difference. And if it did happen and it didn't go nuclear they would be overwhelmed in days. Unless they are sandbagging metaphorically as well as literally in their Novorossiya exploits.
    You miss the political interference Russia has been attempting - successfully in some cases.

    It doesn't have to be a 'shooting war'. I'm curious about why someone as intelligent as yourself ignores the way Russia operates.


    Once again, increasing conventional defence spending, which is the subject under discussion does NOTHING to address the political interference and similar threats. One has to consider why you are hell-bent on directing resources away from the real threats and toward illusory ones to the great detriment of the country's security. I have my suspicions.
    Let's take one example which disproves your point.

    I'd argue that the British government cutting German cables in 1914 was a major factor in us winning the war four years later. One of the first things we did on the outbreak of hostilities. If you want I could go into detail.

    We have seen Russian and (perhaps) China go after power and comms cables in the Baltic, and examine them in the North Sea.

    There is still a need for a strong navy, particularly for an island nation. i would have expected you, with your alleged 'background', to see that.

    WW1 actually shows the issue well: what wins the war is not obvious at the beginning. You need both strength and flexibility if the war lasts more than six months,
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    define 'opposed'? Gone on the streets to willy-wave about preventing? None.

    Opposed in theory - which is all we Internet warriors can do? Many. I mean, I've spoken about the Rohingya's on here in the past, and the cause of the Kurds (and that is *complex*). And the Armenians. If you were a real warrior against war, you would be apoplectic about Sudan and Ethiopia. Or Somalia. Or Yemen. Or many others.

    I even wrote a threader about the potential conflict between Venezuela and Guyana.

    I know those are not trendy for you, and trendy wars are all you care about. Or the Jews.
    You mix up Zionists and Jews again.

    You really should get some anti semitism training
    And a lot of anti-Semites hide behind being anti-Zionist.

    What issue do you have with my stated views on the situation in Israel/Palestine? I stated them just the other day...
    I didn't see your post I don't visit as frequently as I used to.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Those sneaky Russkies will take advantage of the Trump truce to rearm with shiny new kit, whereas Britain will be halfway through the first Badenoch premiership before the MOD committees have finalised our order for new boots.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,031



    WW1 actually shows the issue well: what wins the war is not obvious at the beginning. You need both strength and flexibility if the war lasts more than six months,

    Do you understand that we, despite your best efforts, are not actually at war with Russia are very unlikely to be so?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Many Jews felt they were safe in Europe in the early twentieth century, given the way they were being cleansed from the Middle East.

    How do you think that ended up for them?

    ('Zionism' and ethnic cleansing is an interesting relationship. You should perhaps consider that.)
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613
    Dura_Ace said:



    WW1 actually shows the issue well: what wins the war is not obvious at the beginning. You need both strength and flexibility if the war lasts more than six months,

    Do you understand that we, despite your best efforts, are not actually at war with Russia are very unlikely to be so?
    We are at 'war' with Russia; if you call 'war' a cold war.

    How else would you explain Litvinenko? Salisbury?

    Friendly acts?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
    No, not vice-versa.

    Israel are the victim of the aggression, not the aggressor. They were attacked in 48, they were attacked again in 67, they tried to negotiate a peace agreement with Arafat who walked away. Time and time again they have opted for peace only to have it spurned.

    The other side should lay down their arms, or they should be defeated.
  • Nato at odds with Ukraine over Soviet-style tactics
    British defence sources have accused Zelensky’s troops of wasting expensive weapons and equipment

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2025/02/16/nato-ukraine-soviet-battlefield-tactics-squandered-weapons/ (£££)

    Or try this gift URL but I've no idea how long it works, maybe only once.
    https://telegraph.co.uk/gift/62e94c77ca76f982
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    It’s an important point, which is why it makes way more sense arming Eastern European states and letting them do the dirty work for us.
    If Russia doesn't threaten us militarily, why is it 'our work' to contain it?

    They are clearly not a nice regime. Being their neighbour must be hell. Living there must be very disagreeable. But why 'them' especially, not Xi, not Erdogan, not the Saudis, not Al Shabab in Mozambique? The reason is because Russia has been the USA's number one foe, regardless of Republican or Democrat, for the past 15 years or so. The others, regardless of their evil, their brutality, their invasions, their scant regard for peoples' freedoms, have not. That is why Putin is public enemy No. 1, not just another gargoyle in a whole unpleasant gallery of them.

    If the USA vs. Russia situation changes, as it looks like it might, it's quite awkward for Europe's leaders, because it's no longer a competition to declare how dangerous Putin is (despite his failure to conquer Ukraine) because now the US doesn't give a shit. Just like it has never given a shit about the Saudis chopping people up, so you don't hear a peep about that from anyone.

    In the long run, if it sticks, we will all care about Russia a lot less, and move on to hating whoever is at the top of America's shitlist next. And Jessop will be haranguing us all to declare war on whoever that is.
    He us in the majority. War mongers love getting their knobs out and spending taxpayers money even when at the same time rotating there is no money for anything else.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,223
    Astonishing to see MAGA Cult twitter new found utter hate of Canada.

    Completely out of the blue. Completely without precedent.

    Completely because their false god idol has told them Canada is next.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    ydoethur said:

    “Pouring arms in isn’t going to bring about a solution; it’s only going to prolong and exaggerate this war,” Corbyn said in an interview with a Beirut-based TV channel last August. “We might be in for years and years of war in Ukraine.”

    He added: “What I find disappointing is that hardly any of the world’s leaders use the word peace; they always use the language of more war, and more bellicose war.

    “This war is disastrous for the people of Ukraine, for the people of Russia, and for the safety and security of the whole world, and therefore there has to be much more effort put into peace.”


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/26/labour-left-breaks-with-jeremy-corbyn-over-sending-weapons-to-ukraine

    Just in case anyone thought Corbyn was actually anti-Putin.

    Funny how "much more effort put into peace" requires no effort be put into telling Russia to get the hell out of Ukraine.

    That would secure peace.
    Only one person can stop the Ukraine war.

    Putin.

    If Zelensky was to give in, there would be a Maquis-style resistance. And rightly so. In February 2022 I said on here that Ukraine would be independent within a few decades - because the people obviously did not want to be Russian.

    If Putin was to give in... peace. Including for him, who would find an eternal peace from a fortieth-storey window suddenly materialise in his underground bunker.

    And that, IMO, is the problem.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,223
    If USA attacks Canada how does NATO article 5 work?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
    How far back into history do you want to go?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
    No, not vice-versa.

    Israel are the victim of the aggression, not the aggressor. They were attacked in 48, they were attacked again in 67, they tried to negotiate a peace agreement with Arafat who walked away. Time and time again they have opted for peace only to have it spurned.

    The other side should lay down their arms, or they should be defeated.
    See that's your problem you can't see what's right in front of your eyes. Look at the death statistics that makes it clear who the aggressor and land stealing illegal occupier is.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    TimS said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    It’s an important point, which is why it makes way more sense arming Eastern European states and letting them do the dirty work for us.
    If Russia doesn't threaten us militarily, why is it 'our work' to contain it?

    They are clearly not a nice regime. Being their neighbour must be hell. Living there must be very disagreeable. But why 'them' especially, not Xi, not Erdogan, not the Saudis, not Al Shabab in Mozambique? The reason is because Russia has been the USA's number one foe, regardless of Republican or Democrat, for the past 15 years or so. The others, regardless of their evil, their brutality, their invasions, their scant regard for peoples' freedoms, have not. That is why Putin is public enemy No. 1, not just another gargoyle in a whole unpleasant gallery of them.

    If the USA vs. Russia situation changes, as it looks like it might, it's quite awkward for Europe's leaders, because it's no longer a competition to declare how dangerous Putin is (despite his failure to conquer Ukraine) because now the US doesn't give a shit. Just like it has never given a shit about the Saudis chopping people up, so you don't hear a peep about that from anyone.

    In the long run, if it sticks, we will all care about Russia a lot less, and move on to hating whoever is at the top of America's shitlist next. And Jessop will be haranguing us all to declare war on whoever that is.
    Yes, comrade.
  • Astonishing to see MAGA Cult twitter new found utter hate of Canada.

    Completely out of the blue. Completely without precedent.

    Completely because their false god idol has told them Canada is next.

    The feeling is pretty mutual.

    My father-in-law is a self-professed "high elevation Williams" (hillbilly) from Alberta who was until recently a bit of a Trump fan.

    He's only just discovered that Trump is certifiably insane and detests him now.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,230
    boulay said:

    Cicero said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    I see Starmer is planning to 'overrule' HMT/Reeves to get to 2.5% of GDP by the end of this Parliament, which is a tiny move up from this previously being policy but with no timetable. I also understand the SDR will be asked what can be done to better defend Britain within a 2.5% envelope.

    Sadly, I fear that's still inadequate. Defence chiefs have asked for 2.65% and I think that's reasonable.

    As Hunt said on his podcast the other day if the US totally withdrew from Europe all this 2.5% stuff would go away and we'd be talking about 6, 7, 8 or even 10% of GDP on defence.

    Because we'd have no choice.

    The value for money choice would be to spend an additional say 0.5% of our gdp financially supporting countries close to Russia that have cheaper manufacturing so that they can spend 10% of their GDP. And to allow Poland to go nuclear.

    If any country deserves to have nuclear weapons given its geopolitical situation and history it’s Poland.

    But in the meantime the more we can all suppress Russian GDP by not buying anything from them and making life difficult for anyone who does (including the USA it seems), the more we remove the financial driver for 90% of our defence needs in Europe.
    Which, of course, is similar to the Napoleonic Wars when we built continental coalitions by doing the same.

    But, I don't think there's any escaping the conclusion our Armed Forces are now woefully and dangerously undersized and underprepared, our army is essentially just a performative militia now with some special forces on top, and we're going to have to cough up.
    The country ought to. Starmer probably won't. Other priorities. The enormous social security budget, mostly.
    That's got to change, I'm afraid.

    Social security means nothing without national security.
    But the voters.

    Unless Trump brings enough economic pressure to bear to frighten him into compliance, he won't do it. There are no votes in defence and, as I said the other day, there won't be until the Russians have reached the Rhine and Britain and France have no cards to play save to threaten nuclear war. By which point it'll be a little late.
    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
    Putin doesn't want go to the Rhine. He wants to absorb the Baltics, and subvert most of E Europe including Poland and poss the Scandis. He's an old man in a hurry with a war economy facing a demogrsphic cliff edge. With the US out of the picture very serious stuff could very likely happen.
    He wont succeed with Poland or the Scandinavian countries, but the Baltics are so small he could easily be tempted to conquer them and dare us to do something about it. The man is obviously trying to reassemble the Soviet Union, either by annexation or the establishment of secure client regimes.
    The Baltic has now got strategic depth with Sweden now in NATO and with the extremely capable armies of Finland and Poland on each flank. If Russia makes a move then K'grad is liberated in a few days and St Petersburg and Murmansk under immediate direct attack. A Russian attack could be defeated pretty quickly. The consequences for Putin could quite literally be fatal.
    Absolutely agree that between Finland, Sweden and Poland they would smash an attack I don’t think they would actually attack St P and Murmansk. We suffer the “decency” problem where we are trying to tell ordinary Russians we aren’t a threat and aren’t aggressors - European troops invading Russia, regardless of provocation, is counterproductive.

    On top of that the logistics yet alone the military reality of attacking St P an other places are very problematic - naval invasion? Land invasion? None are remotely easy or palatable.

    And if Kaliningrad is full of Russian nationals, is it really a liberation or an invasion? It’s a boil on Europe’s shoulder but what if they actually don’t want to be “liberated”?

    I would of course love it if it was no longer under Russian control btw.
    Russia has to be defeated, so the counter threat to Russia has be at least credible. The defeat of Putinism may need us to be able to occupy the major naval bases that could launch against us.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
    No, not vice-versa.

    Israel are the victim of the aggression, not the aggressor. They were attacked in 48, they were attacked again in 67, they tried to negotiate a peace agreement with Arafat who walked away. Time and time again they have opted for peace only to have it spurned.

    The other side should lay down their arms, or they should be defeated.
    See that's your problem you can't see what's right in front of your eyes. Look at the death statistics that makes it clear who the aggressor and land stealing illegal occupier is.
    The statistics just show who is stronger, it says jack shit about the aggressor.

    Whom did Israel "steal" land from? Egypt? Jordan? They don't want it back.

    Israel never attacked a country called Palestine.
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
    How far back into history do you want to go?
    However far back we go we can see time and again Israel offering to make peace with her neighbours and that being spurned by the Arabs.

    There is only one reason there is no Palestinian state and that is not Israel, it is Arab leadership down the years.

    The second Israel lays down their arms, they'd be wiped out. The second the other side does, the war would be over.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,151

    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    TimS said:

    I see Starmer is planning to 'overrule' HMT/Reeves to get to 2.5% of GDP by the end of this Parliament, which is a tiny move up from this previously being policy but with no timetable. I also understand the SDR will be asked what can be done to better defend Britain within a 2.5% envelope.

    Sadly, I fear that's still inadequate. Defence chiefs have asked for 2.65% and I think that's reasonable.

    As Hunt said on his podcast the other day if the US totally withdrew from Europe all this 2.5% stuff would go away and we'd be talking about 6, 7, 8 or even 10% of GDP on defence.

    Because we'd have no choice.

    The value for money choice would be to spend an additional say 0.5% of our gdp financially supporting countries close to Russia that have cheaper manufacturing so that they can spend 10% of their GDP. And to allow Poland to go nuclear.

    If any country deserves to have nuclear weapons given its geopolitical situation and history it’s Poland.

    But in the meantime the more we can all suppress Russian GDP by not buying anything from them and making life difficult for anyone who does (including the USA it seems), the more we remove the financial driver for 90% of our defence needs in Europe.
    Which, of course, is similar to the Napoleonic Wars when we built continental coalitions by doing the same.

    But, I don't think there's any escaping the conclusion our Armed Forces are now woefully and dangerously undersized and underprepared, our army is essentially just a performative militia now with some special forces on top, and we're going to have to cough up.
    The country ought to. Starmer probably won't. Other priorities. The enormous social security budget, mostly.
    That's got to change, I'm afraid.

    Social security means nothing without national security.
    But the voters.

    Unless Trump brings enough economic pressure to bear to frighten him into compliance, he won't do it. There are no votes in defence and, as I said the other day, there won't be until the Russians have reached the Rhine and Britain and France have no cards to play save to threaten nuclear war. By which point it'll be a little late.
    Russia is not going to reach the Rhine through conventional military force.

    But that’s not to say that we shouldn’t look at our defence spending. I note several people here strongly support increased defence spending, so maybe there are votes in it.
    Dura_Ace said:

    I note that a lot of the pb tories/fukkers are starting from the conclusion that there is no need for an EU force and working back from there to the conclusion that NATO minus US will be fine. This is understandable for reasons of, what Iggy Pop called, 'psychic self-defence'.

    However, NATO as constituted is a finely calibrated instrument for advancing American hegemony and supporting its strategic interests. It's CinC (ironically called SACEUR) is always an American 4* and never rotates among other nations. So NATO minus US would need a lot of reconfiguration and probably new treaties and would end up looking a lot like the EU's PESCO plus some mutual defence obligations. At that point the EU will quite forcefully position PESCO as the heir to NATO with some justification.

    Agreed.
    As far as European front line defence (ie Ukraine) is concerned, NATO is nullified for the next four years.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,541

    Astonishing to see MAGA Cult twitter new found utter hate of Canada.

    Completely out of the blue. Completely without precedent.

    Completely because their false god idol has told them Canada is next.

    I searched for "Zelensky" on twitter and 17/20 of the first posts were anti-Semitic or a parrot of Russian talking points.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,086

    If USA attacks Canada how does NATO article 5 work?

    In the same way as if Turkey attacks Greece: not easily.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 64,223
    I'm guessing the US processed food industry wont be donating much to Trump campaign in coming years.
  • TimS said:

    If USA attacks Canada how does NATO article 5 work?

    In the same way as if Turkey attacks Greece: not easily.
    Theoretically wouldn't it be an attack on Canada so could be invoked by them?

    Article 5 is about being attacked, not attacking. Hence we couldn't invoke it to get allies to join us in attacking Iraq.
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,491

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
    How far back into history do you want to go?
    However far back we go we can see time and again Israel offering to make peace with her neighbours and that being spurned by the Arabs.

    There is only one reason there is no Palestinian state and that is not Israel, it is Arab leadership down the years.

    The second Israel lays down their arms, they'd be wiped out. The second the other side does, the war would be over.
    This issue is explored in the bitter-sweet ending to Fiddler on the Roof. After a routine early 20th century pogrom somewhere out east the survivors decide to pack their bags and leave. Some head all the way to America. Others decide Poland is far enough. A fatal error, I'm sure we can all agree.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,613

    Dura_Ace said:

    Does anybody have a sufficient level of cognitive dissonance to explain why, if the armed forces of the Russian Federation can't even secure their own territorial integrity by kicking the Mazepists out of Kursk, they are such a conventional threat to Britain that we need to embark on a massive, ruinously expensive and socially destructive re-armament program?

    What specific threat are we gunning up to counter? Amphibious invasion of Norfolk?

    Spot on.

    War mongers of the world unite to defend us against f**k all
    You are in favour of the warmongers in Russia and the warmongers of Hamas.

    You have no consistency on war and peace; only a nasty political viewpoint that leads to more deaths.
    No I am not.

    How many times do I have to post I oppose them both but I also oppose the war mongers of the West and its "allies" before you
    can get it into your skull?

    Which war have you ever opposed?
    Is Putin a war monger?
    Yes

    Next
    Are Hamas war mongers?
    Not so much more defenders against an illegal occupation but that still didnt give them the right to do what they did in Oct 2023

    Is Bibi a warmonger or are you happy shooting thousands of unarmed children in the head

    Why are you totally
    Where, in your view, would Jews feel safe to live given the past 1,000 years of history? In which state would you have them living, or where would you have them having a state?

    Anti-Semitism has a long and sad history, well outside Palestine.

    (And the answer is not 'Madagascar'...)
    Anywhere they wish AFAIAC

    London, New York Europe for example many Jewish people seem perfectly happy living there.The world is literally their oyster

    Zionists don't seem capable of coexisting in harmony with Arabs in the middle East since Zionism took hold though.
    Because the Arabs attacked.

    The reason there's no Palestinian state is the Arab states rejected it, annexed the land and attempted to wipe out Israel. Then tried again decades later, losing again.

    Israelis have every right to defend themselves against Arab aggression.
    And vice versa?
    How far back into history do you want to go?
    However far back we go we can see time and again Israel offering to make peace with her neighbours and that being spurned by the Arabs.

    There is only one reason there is no Palestinian state and that is not Israel, it is Arab leadership down the years.

    (Snip)
    I quibble with that.

    I am a firm believer that the Kurds deserve (and deserved...) their own state. As the Armenians got,

    The reason they did not get such a state was line drawn on a map, many miles away. Palestinians, and Jews, could have got such states.

    But that is not to say that, as with Armenia, everything would have been rosy and peaceful if they had got individual states.

    Quite the opposite. Lines drawn on a map are easily erased.
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