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A reminder, people with class do not talk about class – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,329

    ... but once Carney becomes leader the Liberals will be edging ahead.

    Justin's played a blinder.
    Maybe. But, remember the fate of Kim Campbell.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    Sean_F said:

    I guess Philippe Sands has instructed the Nodding Donkey to do so.
    Morgan meanwhile is screaming and banging his head on a desk.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,379
    kle4 said:

    Feels like it would be a rare occurence of swapping out the Leader actually working, and would suggest it really was Trudeau wearing out his welcome which was the biggest problem.
    Worked for Labour in New Zealand when they dumped Andrew Little for Jacinda Ardern - Kiwis are surprised when I tell them how much we all admire Jacinda on PB.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,379
    Eabhal said:

    The pies are extraordinary. Though they do always taste good after 5 days tramping across waist-deep rivers, glaciers and through that incredibly spiky grass.
    You’re so right about the pies. I’ve found three or four really good bakeries on my travels. My favourites are mince & cheese and potato top.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 54,206
    DavidL said:

    Is there some part of we have no f****** money left that they are not getting?
    Labour will always have your money...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,329

    Morgan meanwhile is screaming and banging his head on a desk.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that Starmer is actually quite stupid. He and his government are rudderless.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,571
    edited February 7

    They did say Americans were looking for a strong leader.
    This deserves far more compliments than it has so far received. Chapeau, sir.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,424
    Foxy said:

    I was last there in 1990.

    I remember asking at a hotel about the menu, and they told me to order quickly as the kitchen was closing soon. It was 18:45...
    Back when I was in NZ anywhere out of the big cities was like 1845 (the year).
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    Exactly what I thought when I saw the original 'I am in the cult' tweet.

    Suspect all is not well behind the scenes...



    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol
    ·
    1h
    Elon’s desperate. He knows that Trump knows that Elon’s undercutting him and damaging him.

    And Elon’s profession of love won’t save him.


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    Exactly what I thought when I saw the original 'I am in the cult' tweet.

    Suspect all is not well behind the scenes...



    Bill Kristol
    @BillKristol
    ·
    1h
    Elon’s desperate. He knows that Trump knows that Elon’s undercutting him and damaging him.

    And Elon’s profession of love won’t save him.


    Musk is useful, but how much does Trump actually need him? It's not like he will suddenly turn in to a powerful opponent of Trump's if he gets cut down to size.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,425
    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1887992061284204765

    At my direction, we are going to make the Kennedy Center in Washington D.C., GREAT AGAIN. I have decided to immediately terminate multiple individuals from the Board of Trustees, including the Chairman, who do not share our Vision for a Golden Age in Arts and Culture. We will soon announce a new Board, with an amazing Chairman, DONALD J. TRUMP! Just last year, the Kennedy Center featured Drag Shows specifically targeting our youth — THIS WILL STOP. The Kennedy Center is an American Jewel, and must reflect the brightest STARS on its stage from all across our Nation. For the Kennedy Center, THE BEST IS YET TO COME!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,306

    Labour to open talks on slavery reparations
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/07/foreign-office-opens-talks-on-paying-slavery-reparations/

    I am sure we were told that really it was Starmer just playing 4d chess with Commonwealth leaders and it would all be forgotten and nothing more would be ever heard of this ever again.

    Chagos was just the beginning. Utterly barmy.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,948

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1887992061284204765

    At my direction, we are going to make the Kennedy Center in Washington D.C., GREAT AGAIN. I have decided to immediately terminate multiple individuals from the Board of Trustees, including the Chairman, who do not share our Vision for a Golden Age in Arts and Culture. We will soon announce a new Board, with an amazing Chairman, DONALD J. TRUMP! Just last year, the Kennedy Center featured Drag Shows specifically targeting our youth — THIS WILL STOP. The Kennedy Center is an American Jewel, and must reflect the brightest STARS on its stage from all across our Nation. For the Kennedy Center, THE BEST IS YET TO COME!

    It's all getting a bit 'degenerate art' isn't it?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    RobD said:

    Chagos was just the beginning. Utterly barmy.
    As I say, Morgan McSweeney must be bouncing off walls.

    This feels like the US Dems 2024 all over again.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited February 7
    Having heard all the amazing things AI can now do, are the government coming up with strategies using ChatGPT v3 rather than o3?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,109

    Labour to open talks on reparations. “Caribbean sources said they were keen for Lord Hermer to be involved.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/07/foreign-office-opens-talks-on-paying-slavery-reparations/

    There must be a Reform mole in the Labour camp.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,378

    Labour to open talks on reparations. “Caribbean sources said they were keen for Lord Hermer to be involved.”

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/02/07/foreign-office-opens-talks-on-paying-slavery-reparations/

    ELEPHANT TRAP - AVOID.
    Won't happen, regardless as Reeves will veto due to finances and McSweeney can recognise the elephant trap from a mile off.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413
    Sean_F said:

    They would be. Lord Hermer actively detests, and works against the interests of, his own country.
    Starmer's old firm represents Mauritius does it not? That firm will be on for a nice chunk of the £18bn. Years later, when Sir Kier starts a charitable foundation, wherein he travels the world, dispensing wisdom and pouring oil on troubled global waters, it may be that that firm, in a totally unrelated charitable act, donates a large sum to Sir Keir's foundation to enable its vital work.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413

    ELEPHANT TRAP - AVOID.
    Won't happen, regardless as Reeves will veto due to finances and McSweeney can recognise the elephant trap from a mile off.
    Like she has vetoed Chagos?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242
    biggles said:

    If I was asked to brainstorm ways to get Reform over 30%, this would be high on the list.
    That sort of proposal brings out my inner Trump.

    And if it does that to me, I have to assume others will be incandescent about it.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,330
    Pardoned Jan 6 rioter arrested for soliciting sex with a minor: https://www.latintimes.com/pardoned-january-6-rioter-arrested-texas-soliciting-sex-minor-574925
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,378

    As I say, Morgan McSweeney must be bouncing off walls.

    This feels like the US Dems 2024 all over again.
    What price on Lammy being the next person to leave the Cabinet? If there's any truth in there being a meeting, McSweeney and Redwall MPs are going to be furious.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,557
    HYUFD said:

    Alba are on 7% in the latest Holyrood poll

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Scottish_Parliament_election
    That means nothing. They are nothing. Even with Salmond at their head they won zero seats in the Scottish Parliament. And now they are imploding. I imagine the more fruit-loop bits of their vote will go to Reform or splinter parties.

    I still think Reform could end up recruiting Sheridan. The "I was set up by the blob/media/whatever" line might work for them here.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413
    kle4 said:

    That sort of proposal brings out my inner Trump.

    And if it does that to me, I have to assume others will be incandescent about it.
    It needs to. A soft right Tory Government that does things "a little bit less bad" than Labour is not going to cut it. Surely that has become abundantly clear.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,330

    Pardoned Jan 6 rioter arrested for soliciting sex with a minor: https://www.latintimes.com/pardoned-january-6-rioter-arrested-texas-soliciting-sex-minor-574925

    The running total is reported to be…

    1 shot dead by a cop
    2 arrested for soliciting sex with a minor
    1 arrested with child sexual abuse material
    1 arrested on federal gun charges
    1 arrested on vehicular manslaughter (killing someone while drunk driving)
    7 more arrested for unknown reasons
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013

    What price on Lammy being the next person to leave the Cabinet? If there's any truth in there being a meeting, McSweeney and Redwall MPs are going to be furious.
    Well I suppose you can say it is just a meeting.

    But that 'aint gonna be how Reform play this in northern/midlands WC marginal seats.

    "My nan can't get anyone to help her onto the toilet etc etc..."


  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413

    Pardoned Jan 6 rioter arrested for soliciting sex with a minor: https://www.latintimes.com/pardoned-january-6-rioter-arrested-texas-soliciting-sex-minor-574925

    Poor man. He should have asked for a proper Joe Biden pardon.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,733
    It's amazing how much credence folk give to a Telegraph hatchet job on Labour - they're two a penny.
    Labour won't agree to paying any reparations. People may not like Starmer or Lammy, but they're not mad.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,330

    https://x.com/trump_repost/status/1887992061284204765

    At my direction, we are going to make the Kennedy Center in Washington D.C., GREAT AGAIN. I have decided to immediately terminate multiple individuals from the Board of Trustees, including the Chairman, who do not share our Vision for a Golden Age in Arts and Culture. We will soon announce a new Board, with an amazing Chairman, DONALD J. TRUMP! Just last year, the Kennedy Center featured Drag Shows specifically targeting our youth — THIS WILL STOP. The Kennedy Center is an American Jewel, and must reflect the brightest STARS on its stage from all across our Nation. For the Kennedy Center, THE BEST IS YET TO COME!

    Drag Shows targeting our youth? In the UK, we call that panto.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    What price on Lammy being the next person to leave the Cabinet? If there's any truth in there being a meeting, McSweeney and Redwall MPs are going to be furious.
    Aargh! Red Wall. Red! Wall!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,306

    It's amazing how much credence folk give to a Telegraph hatchet job on Labour - they're two a penny.
    Labour won't agree to paying any reparations. People may not like Starmer or Lammy, but they're not mad.

    What? Starmer himself agreed that there needed to be a serious discussion about it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    1m
    To agree to a single penny of slavery reparations would be to disown & dishonour one of history's greatest acts of collective virtue, spitting on the graves of all those who campaigned, sailed, fought & died suppressing the slave trade, earning contempt from friend & foe alike.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 13,330
    ohnotnow said:

    That means nothing. They are nothing. Even with Salmond at their head they won zero seats in the Scottish Parliament. And now they are imploding. I imagine the more fruit-loop bits of their vote will go to Reform or splinter parties.

    I still think Reform could end up recruiting Sheridan. The "I was set up by the blob/media/whatever" line might work for them here.
    They won zero seats anywhere. Alba have never won a single election, never had a single person elected to office.
  • RandallFlaggRandallFlagg Posts: 1,378

    ELEPHANT TRAP - AVOID.
    Won't happen, regardless as Reeves will veto due to finances and McSweeney can recognise the elephant trap from a mile off.
    I think there's a difference between £9-18bn over 99 years and reparations several times the UK's GDP. Any fool in the Cabinet should be able to see the gigantic hole in the ground Lammy wants to peer into.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242
    edited February 7

    It's amazing how much credence folk give to a Telegraph hatchet job on Labour - they're two a penny.
    Labour won't agree to paying any reparations. People may not like Starmer or Lammy, but they're not mad.

    It's not a story where nuance will particularly help them among those who dislike the ieda. They presumably cannot unequivocally just say it will be no else the exercise is pointless, even if no is definitely the plan, so there will be plenty of political capital to mine from a delicate, diplomatic answer that they would need to give.

    Discussions on the idea, in themselves, will play badly with a lot of people, because it has a presumption that the idea has reasonable merit.

    Some do feel that is the case. Many others (like me) do not, that there is no benefit to be gained by doing it. And so even discussions, which may go nowhere, will stir up negative emotion.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    RobD said:

    What? Starmer himself agreed that there needed to be a serious discussion about it.
    Well, could be talks about talks to be honest.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,738
    % who agree that the U.S. is in a constitutional crisis
    U.S. adult citizens 54%
    Democrats 70%
    Republicans 36%
    ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/De...

    https://bsky.app/profile/today.yougov.com/post/3lhmpelxgl22v
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,948

    It's amazing how much credence folk give to a Telegraph hatchet job on Labour - they're two a penny.
    Labour won't agree to paying any reparations. People may not like Starmer or Lammy, but they're not mad.

    I suspect this is a kite flying exercise by Labour, so the mighty Sir Keir looks like an unsentimental, hard-nosed bruiser when he shoots the proposal down.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    kle4 said:

    Aargh! Red Wall. Red! Wall!

    @real-donald-golf-trump

    RED wall. I LOVE those people. MY grandmothers PEOPLE. WE will NOT let them spend ONE BRIT POUND on slaves from FIVE generations ago. DOGE.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413
    Foxy said:

    % who agree that the U.S. is in a constitutional crisis
    U.S. adult citizens 54%
    Democrats 70%
    Republicans 36%
    ygo-assets-websites-editorial-emea.yougov.net/documents/De...

    https://bsky.app/profile/today.yougov.com/post/3lhmpelxgl22v

    Lucky them - I'd love to live in a country that's only in one sort of crisis.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,480
    Sean_F said:

    The voting intention is in fact Con 40% to Liberal 34%. Most polling still points to a big Conservative lead.
    Even a 6% lead would be a slashing of the over 20% Conservative lead before Christmas and as the polling shows would be neck and neck if Carney replaced Trudeau
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,733
    RobD said:

    What? Starmer himself agreed that there needed to be a serious discussion about it.
    Towards the end of the Telegraph hatchet job linked to:
    At the summit, Sir Keir resisted pressure from member states to prioritise putting reparations on the agenda. Downing Street said that the UK would reject calls for reparations, and would not be issuing an apology for Britain’s role in the slave trade.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,480

    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    1m
    To agree to a single penny of slavery reparations would be to disown & dishonour one of history's greatest acts of collective virtue, spitting on the graves of all those who campaigned, sailed, fought & died suppressing the slave trade, earning contempt from friend & foe alike.

    I see Downing Street has been swift to put out a statement there will be no reparations this evening
  • DriverDriver Posts: 5,560

    It's amazing how much credence folk give to a Telegraph hatchet job on Labour - they're two a penny.
    Labour won't agree to paying any reparations. People may not like Starmer or Lammy, but they're not mad.

    Are you going to try to persuade me that Starmer and Lammy don't believe in "reparations"?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited February 7

    Towards the end of the Telegraph hatchet job linked to:
    At the summit, Sir Keir resisted pressure from member states to prioritise putting reparations on the agenda. Downing Street said that the UK would reject calls for reparations, and would not be issuing an apology for Britain’s role in the slave trade.
    He went to the summit with a red line of not agreeing to anything...yet here we are now in discussions (which was reported as a fudge that wouldn't see the light of day anytime soon).

    The UK doesn't have the money so won't be paying the money being asked for, but terrible politics now means they will regularly have these meetings and government have to try and explain to people yeah, but no, but yeah, giving opposition parties easy attack points.

    Also, the government keep giving in on every negotiation they have got involved in. Public Sector workers, here have even more than you asked for, no strings attached, no modernisation, no efficiency savings, Chagos Islands, oh we will make it inflation linked making it twice as expensive, ...

    They make Trump look good at bargaining.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,480
    stodge said:

    Worked for Labour in New Zealand when they dumped Andrew Little for Jacinda Ardern - Kiwis are surprised when I tell them how much we all admire Jacinda on PB.
    Plus when the Tories here replaced Thatcher with Major in 1990 and May with Boris in 2019.

    Though it is fury from Canadians at Trump and his tariffs as much as a change of leader boosting the Liberals but Carney does seem most competent to handle Trump
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,733
    Driver said:

    Are you going to try to persuade me that Starmer and Lammy don't believe in "reparations"?
    It doesn't really matter what they 'believe'. There won't be any financial reparations.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    Well, could be talks about talks to be honest.
    It'll be overplayed, to be sure. But the idea will be to flush out those on the government benches who currently or historically have said it was a good idea. Fair or not on the official position, it will be hard to counter without the kind of blunt talk that is unlikely, even with the example Northern_Al provides.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413
    HYUFD said:

    I see Downing Street has been swift to put out a statement there will be no reparations this evening
    But what about tomorrow evening?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,480
    edited February 7
    Sean_F said:

    Maybe. But, remember the fate of Kim Campbell.
    Campbell had a party to her right surging before she took over, the NDP however are collapsing to below 10% in Canada as the main alternative to the Liberals left.

    Though yes you are right to say that Campbell's initial main big bounce soon faded. Ironically Carney will probably want a tariff war with Trump as his best chance to win
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,866
    HYUFD said:

    I see Downing Street has been swift to put out a statement there will be no reparations this evening
    Starts tomorrow?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,109
    edited February 7
    The best way to defeat populism is by going back to benevolent aristocracy, or high Toryism. The village squire who is genuinely respected by all the villagers, that type of thing. Any other attempt to defeat populism will probably fail.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413
    Andy_JS said:

    The best way to defeat populism is by going back to benevolent aristocracy, or high Toryism. The village squire who is genuinely respected by all the villagers, that type of thing. Any other attempt to defeat populism will probably fail.

    We need a dose of populism.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242
    Andy_JS said:

    The best way to defeat populism is by going back to benevolent aristocracy, or high Toryism. The village squire who is genuinely respected by all the villagers, that type of thing. Any other attempt to defeat populism will probably fail. So that's the choice.

    What kind of a plan is that? I don't even know what it would mean, in practical terms, for an existing or new party to go with 'high Toryism'.

    Where would you even find these village squires? Idiotic rabble rousers are better known than any genteel squire type.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,733
    Anyway, given the backlash against progressive politics and the 'vibe-shift' (yuk) in the USA. I expect slavery will soon be seen as a jolly good thing and it should be the slaves' ancestors who should be apologising for getting stroppy about it.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,557

    I think there's a difference between £9-18bn over 99 years and reparations several times the UK's GDP. Any fool in the Cabinet should be able to see the gigantic hole in the ground Lammy wants to peer into.
    "Any policemen down there? No? I thought so!"
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,866
    HYUFD said:

    Even a 6% lead would be a slashing of the over 20% Conservative lead before Christmas and as the polling shows would be neck and neck if Carney replaced Trudeau
    It does.
    And you really couldn't have chosen a better issue to split CPC. (It's a union of the Tories and Reform).
    There was a poll showing 15% want to join the US. That's the Reform half of the Party. The old style Tory are super patriotic and pro Monarchy. There are links back to Loyalists from the US War of Independence and Scots Unionists.
    It's a dynamite issue.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,424
    HYUFD said:

    I see Downing Street has been swift to put out a statement there will be no reparations this evening
    What about tomorrow though?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    He went to the summit with a red line of not agreeing to anything...yet here we are now in discussions (which was reported as a fudge that wouldn't see the light of day anytime soon).

    The UK doesn't have the money so won't be paying the money being asked for, but terrible politics now means they will regularly have these meetings and government have to try and explain to people yeah, but no, but yeah, giving opposition parties easy attack points.

    Also, the government keep giving in on every negotiation they have got involved in. Public Sector workers, here have even more than you asked for, no strings attached, no modernisation, no efficiency savings, Chagos Islands, oh we will make it inflation linked making it twice as expensive, ...

    They make Trump look good at bargaining.
    I genuinely don't think the government will agree to any reparations, but if they keep having to have the conversation (even at the 'no, we're not going to' level), it will make people think they might give in eventually. After all, we get told a lot that the UK alone cannot dictate to others and has to compromise, and from the Comonwealth perspective at least there's little downside to trying to embarass the government by pushing for reparations, no matter what they sincerely think they'll get.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,306

    Towards the end of the Telegraph hatchet job linked to:
    At the summit, Sir Keir resisted pressure from member states to prioritise putting reparations on the agenda. Downing Street said that the UK would reject calls for reparations, and would not be issuing an apology for Britain’s role in the slave trade.
    He signed the memorandum

    Commonwealth leaders have agreed the "time has come" for a conversation about reparations for the slave trade, despite the UK's desire to keep the subject off the agenda at a two-day summit in Samoa.
    A document signed by 56 heads of government, including UK Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, acknowledges calls for "discussions on reparatory justice" for the "abhorrent" transatlantic slave trade.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c207m3m0xpjo.amp
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,557

    They won zero seats anywhere. Alba have never won a single election, never had a single person elected to office.
    I admit, I couldn't remember if they'd possibly won a local council set somewhere, once. So was hedging my post. I know they now have the political titan Ash Regan - but that doesn't count. In many senses.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,109
    edited February 7

    Having heard all the amazing things AI can now do, are the government coming up with strategies using ChatGPT v3 rather than o3?

    I can't stop having dystopian feelings about AI. Just feels like it's going to do more bad than good.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,733
    RobD said:

    He signed the memorandum

    Commonwealth leaders have agreed the "time has come" for a conversation about reparations for the slave trade, despite the UK's desire to keep the subject off the agenda at a two-day summit in Samoa.
    A document signed by 56 heads of government, including UK Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, acknowledges calls for "discussions on reparatory justice" for the "abhorrent" transatlantic slave trade.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c207m3m0xpjo.amp
    That's just diplomacy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    Andrew Lilico
    @andrew_lilico
    ·
    1m
    To agree to a single penny of slavery reparations would be to disown & dishonour one of history's greatest acts of collective virtue, spitting on the graves of all those who campaigned, sailed, fought & died suppressing the slave trade, earning contempt from friend & foe alike.

    I don't think it's even necessary to go down that argument, to get into disputes about whether the abolion efforts somehow 'make up' for what went before.

    It's just impractical and even silly to punish people who had nothing to do with it to give to others who have nothing to do with it, and would probably be wasted to boot, without mollifying anyone in moral terms. Current iniquities or lingering effects in our society or between societies would surely take more effort to address than something performative like this.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413
    kle4 said:

    I genuinely don't think the government will agree to any reparations, but if they keep having to have the conversation (even at the 'no, we're not going to' level), it will make people think they might give in eventually. After all, we get told a lot that the UK alone cannot dictate to others and has to compromise, and from the Comonwealth perspective at least there's little downside to trying to embarass the government by pushing for reparations, no matter what they sincerely think they'll get.
    I think it's the Chagos effect. Other countries have realised the UK is giving out free money.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,445
    edited February 7
    kle4 said:

    I genuinely don't think the government will agree to any reparations, but if they keep having to have the conversation (even at the 'no, we're not going to' level), it will make people think they might give in eventually. After all, we get told a lot that the UK alone cannot dictate to others and has to compromise, and from the Comonwealth perspective at least there's little downside to trying to embarass the government by pushing for reparations, no matter what they sincerely think they'll get.
    It diverts the attention of their people from their shitty governments and terrible lives onto a convenient scapegoat.

    Much easier than actually improving the lives of their populations by boring things like good governance and sensible policies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242
    edited February 7

    That's just diplomacy.
    Yes it is, but what do people mean when they say the time has come for a 'conversation'? Most of those who want to have the conversation presumably have some kind of outcome in mind, I think that's pretty uncontroversial.

    The government has not committment to that specific outcome and it would false to claim they definitely have, but people looking at such a statement know what the Commonwealth leaders mean when they want to have that conversation about 'reparatory justice', so they're not going to think 'Ok, so when the government says no, the issue will just be dropped then, as the conversation will have been had'.

    So the goverment is in a bind where it cannot simply tell them to bugger off, it wants good relations with everyone of course, but anything less looks like they are taking it seriously, even if they say they are not.

    And that will make for good attack headlines every time it comes up.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,306

    That's just diplomacy.
    Extremely bad diplomacy if, as you assert, there is no chance of reparations ever happening.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,557
    Andy_JS said:

    I can't stop having dystopian feelings about AI. Just feels like it's going to do more bad than good.
    You're just not raising enough VC money. What more good in the world is there?

    :: insert pictures of happy babies ::
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    HYUFD said:

    I see Downing Street has been swift to put out a statement there will be no reparations this evening
    Why meet then?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,306

    Why meet then?
    Because the UK government signed up to discuss the issue.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,413
    I watched Hercules with Dwayne 'The Rock' on TV the other day. I was expecting it to be mindless action and pretty bad, and he's such a cheeseball, but I came away thinking it was really very good. The idea of Hercules being a bit of a clapped out old stager was a very original theme. The battle scenes were very riveting - one really wanted the heroes to win. 7.5/10, give it a chance.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    I think it's the Chagos effect. Other countries have realised the UK is giving out free money.
    Maybe. If I were the other heads of government I'd press it regardless of an expected outcome, because it unsettles the UK, diverts from any other topics if a distraction is desired, and serves as a useful moral high ground if the UK ever seeks to lecture or pressurise anyone.

    I don't think the Chagos thing has cut through with the public yet, but reparations discussions would - Chagos seems to me to be an arcane dispute between lawyers and about cold calculations of national interest between us and Mauritius and the USA. Reparations gets emotional, and there are significant numbers of people and politicians who will argue passionately for the Commonwealth position, and that makes for more interesting news coverage.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    I watched Hercules with Dwayne 'The Rock' on TV the other day. I was expecting it to be mindless action and pretty bad, and he's such a cheeseball, but I came away thinking it was really very good. The idea of Hercules being a bit of a clapped out old stager was a very original theme. The battle scenes were very riveting - one really wanted the heroes to win. 7.5/10, give it a chance.

    It was a decent flick. I recall it being described as a classic 1980s mercenary film, just with Hercules in it.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 4,557
    kle4 said:

    I genuinely don't think the government will agree to any reparations, but if they keep having to have the conversation (even at the 'no, we're not going to' level), it will make people think they might give in eventually. After all, we get told a lot that the UK alone cannot dictate to others and has to compromise, and from the Comonwealth perspective at least there's little downside to trying to embarass the government by pushing for reparations, no matter what they sincerely think they'll get.
    I suspect they will agree to a very expensive enquiry into reparations, however. Maybe a whole new department. Inter-government panels. Expert reports from academics. It could be years of fruitful busywork! And the final report! How solemnly it could be accepted. Stately. Tear in the eye. Serious, almost breaking voice.

    Filed away amongst the reports into various other Things To Be Forgotten.

    And then back to he said she said they said he said. The important stuff.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,866
    HYUFD said:

    Campbell had a party to her right surging before she took over, the NDP however are collapsing to below 10% in Canada as the main alternative to the Liberals left.

    Though yes you are right to say that Campbell's initial main big bounce soon faded. Ironically Carney will probably want a tariff war with Trump as his best chance to win
    Where are you getting this NDP below 10% from?
    The lowest (and that's quite an outlier is 11.8%).
    Not surprising as they are similar to the LD'S here, as the only possible alternative to the Cons in much of the West. As well as having other pockets of strength.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    ohnotnow said:

    I suspect they will agree to a very expensive enquiry into reparations, however. Maybe a whole new department. Inter-government panels. Expert reports from academics. It could be years of fruitful busywork! And the final report! How solemnly it could be accepted. Stately. Tear in the eye. Serious, almost breaking voice.

    Filed away amongst the reports into various other Things To Be Forgotten.

    And then back to he said she said they said he said. The important stuff.
    Lawyers always do very well out of such enquiries....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,242

    Lawyers always do very well out of such enquiries....
    Given all the retired judges willing to sit for years with such things, maybe we'd have speedier justice if we just kept them on as judges for that time.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,686
    RobD said:

    Because the UK government signed up to discuss the issue.
    *Fucking* *Idiots*
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,332
    edited February 7
    kle4 said:

    Given all the retired judges willing to sit for years with such things, maybe we'd have speedier justice if we just kept them on as judges for that time.
    Dutch auction the position off. If we add suitably large entry and bidding fees we might even be able to turn a profit.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,109
    "Labour councillor defects to Reform over Starmer’s ‘disappointing’ performance
    Ashfield’s Cathy Mason says people are ‘suffering’ and Nigel Farage’s party is the only one ‘offering change’"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2025/02/07/labour-councillor-defects-reform-starmer-farage-polls/
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    “Trump has a limit to others getting credit,” a prominent Republican strategist told me.

    Vanity Fair
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    Cookie said:

    *Fucking* *Idiots*
    Somebody should warn those hoping for a £ cheque from their ancestor's slavery about how long it is taken to get even remotely near a cheque if you are illegally and wrongly accused for decades of robbing 2nd class stamps from your own sub-postoffice or your blood was infected thanks to the NHS being crap.

  • ChelyabinskChelyabinsk Posts: 509
    edited February 8
    Thanks to the Labour supporters on here: I can't tell you how relieved I am to know that, although the government just agreed to open talks about reparations for slavery, the twin force of our intellectual powerhouse Foreign Secretary David Lammy and a guy whose grandad was in the IRA will make sure it goes nowhere.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 34,109
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    Andy_JS said:
    The electorate love a good laugh every so often.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,480
    dixiedean said:

    Where are you getting this NDP below 10% from?
    The lowest (and that's quite an outlier is 11.8%).
    Not surprising as they are similar to the LD'S here, as the only possible alternative to the Cons in much of the West. As well as having other pockets of strength.
    The hypothetical poll with a Carney led Liberals had the NDP falling to just 8%. The NDP are ideologically of course the Canadian equivalent of our Labour party, the Liberals the cousins of our LDs

    https://files.constantcontact.com/f737aa99901/481ac616-abe0-4f16-808f-12b7e595ac25.pdf
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,993
    RobD said:

    He signed the memorandum

    Commonwealth leaders have agreed the "time has come" for a conversation about reparations for the slave trade, despite the UK's desire to keep the subject off the agenda at a two-day summit in Samoa.
    A document signed by 56 heads of government, including UK Prime Minister Sir Keir Starmer, acknowledges calls for "discussions on reparatory justice" for the "abhorrent" transatlantic slave trade.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c207m3m0xpjo.amp
    I think you're thinking too small here.

    British sailors manned ships taking slaves to the Americas. Those sailors will have been emotionally scarred by that experience, and it is right that their families (i.e. decedents) receive proper compensation.

    Ultimately, the transatlantic slave trade existed because the US (and its predecessors) were addicted to slave labour, and therefore it is right that it is the US that pays. Simply: we, Britain, were victims too of America's addition to slavery.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,993
    dixiedean said:

    Where are you getting this NDP below 10% from?
    The lowest (and that's quite an outlier is 11.8%).
    Not surprising as they are similar to the LD'S here, as the only possible alternative to the Cons in much of the West. As well as having other pockets of strength.
    Ummm: aren't the NDP to the left of the Liberals?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    David Frum
    @davidfrum
    ·
    3h
    Resigning early for racist tweets may turn out to be a much happier personal ending than going to prison later for violating dozens of federal statutes.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,013
    Maybe something to do with the "algorithm" but Gov Pritzker of Illinois in his 'fighting back' mode just keeps coming up on my X feed.

    60/1
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,217
    edited February 8
    I've been fascinated for years by those who worry about slavery in the 19th century, but are indifferent to modern slavery. If it is the ultimate evil, shouldn't, for example, France end it in Mauritania? And other places once ruled by France.

    Incidentally, the US has done something about modern slavery. The existence of South Sudan is in large part due to the desire of the George W. Bush administration to end slavery in that area. May I again suggest that some of you read Francis Bok's "Escape from Slavery".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bok

    (Naturally, the Obama administraion, showing the empathy for which they are so well known, neglected the new nation, which fell into a terrible civil war.)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,922
    Anybody who wants to keep track of Die Oppelbevelhebber Musk, the website Wired is keeping tabs. The Bsky is here: https://bsky.app/profile/wired.com
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,817
    kle4 said:

    Musk is useful, but how much does Trump actually need him? It's not like he will suddenly turn in to a powerful opponent of Trump's if he gets cut down to size.
    I suspect it is not Trump but Vance who is opposed to Musk, and mainstream Republicans who are nervous of what he is doing. Permanent revolution is not why they entered politics.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited February 8

    I've been fascinated for years by those who worry about slavery in the 19th century, but are indifferent to modern slavery. If it is the ultimate evil, shouldn't, for example, France end it in Mauritania? And other places once ruled by France.

    Incidentally, the US has done something about modern slavery. The existence of South Sudan is in large part due to the desire of the George W. Bush administration to end slavery in that area. May I again suggest that some of you read Francis Bok's "Escape from Slavery".
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bok

    (Naturally, the Obama administraion, showing the empathy for which they are so well known, neglected the new nation, which fell into a terrible civil war.)

    It seems the UK is going allow Shein floatation on the FTSE (the US won't touch them)....who depend on cotton picked by slaves.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 83,131
    edited February 8
    US President Donald Trump has said he is revoking Joe Biden's security clearance and access to daily intelligence briefings, after his predecessor did the same to him four years ago.

    "There is no need for Joe Biden to continue receiving access to classified information," Trump wrote in a post on his Truth Social platform. "JOE, YOU'RE FIRED," the Republican added in a reference to his catchphrase on the reality TV show The Apprentice.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn57p5r99xyo

    On this one Trump is probably right for the wrong motivation, Biden isn't mentally capable of taking onboard daily intelligence briefings.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 23,922

    I suspect it is not Trump but Vance who is opposed to Musk, and mainstream Republicans who are nervous of what he is doing. Permanent revolution is not why they entered politics.
    In all seriousness... what is a "mainstream" Republican? The country-club Republicans were thrown out and the Big Business Republicans bent the knee and kissed the ring in minutes. The MAGA Republicans own the party now. Did you mean mainstream Republican *voters* ?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,817
    viewcode said:

    In all seriousness... what is a "mainstream" Republican? The country-club Republicans were thrown out and the Big Business Republicans bent the knee and kissed the ring in minutes. The MAGA Republicans own the party now. Did you mean mainstream Republican *voters* ?
    Mainstream Republicans who may be cowed by MAGA, who may even support Trump as a means of getting into power, but who are holding their noses because they do not support all of his policies, insofar as he has very many of them, and who look aghast at Project 2025 and Vance and especially Elon Musk.

    If you want a domestic parallel, there were lots of Conservatives who did not support Boris and Dominic Cummings, except to get elected, and nor was there a strong policy link between Boris himself and Cummings.
This discussion has been closed.