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The government sinks to a new low yet still leads the Tories who remain in third place

SystemSystem Posts: 12,320
edited February 18 in General
The government sinks to a new low yet still leads the Tories who remain in third place

Disapproval in the government reaches its highest level since the electionApprove: 16% (-4 from 18-20 Jan)Disapprove: 64% (+4)Net: -48 (-8)yougov.co.uk/topics/polit…

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Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,188
    First, like Labour.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,615
    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,835
    Foxy said:

    First, like Labour.

    Second, like Labour will be lucky to scrape in the next election.
  • So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,954

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    Meaningless words.
  • So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    What a contemptable man he is
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,742

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,135

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    At the moment he and Reeves are talking a lot, but he will be judged by his actions.

    I am becoming increasingly convinced this government talks the talk on deregulation without any real resolve to do what is needed to fix it. To do so would be to drive fundamental reform of the bureaucratic state that has been built and would cause significant disruption. If this is what they’re after then time is slipping away from them - it’s a huge undertaking.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 38,085
    Governments are never liked. But approval ratings tend to lead, not lag, voting intentions. Labour are still likely to drop to third, in coming months.

    As an aside, the two Canadian EKOS polls, which show a big rise in Liberal support, look like outliers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,488
    Here's the 2.Bundesliga table from this weekend:



    Notice how the top placed team - FC Magdeburg - has managed to win exactly zero games at home.

    All I can assume is that SKS is moonlighting as their manager.

  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 7,135
    DavidL said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    And then something will happen somewhere. And there will be the inevitable inquiry. And yet more recommendations as to how that particular something can be avoided. And yet more regulations. We have been stuck on this escalator for decades now, regardless of the stripe of government. I can't believe Starmer is the man to stop it myself.
    The governments problem in a nutshell. They’re instinctively keen on more regulation, (and tax) whilst simultaneously complaining about the effects of it.

    There is a lack of a clear ideological or mission-driven underpinning to all this.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,281

    DavidL said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    And then something will happen somewhere. And there will be the inevitable inquiry. And yet more recommendations as to how that particular something can be avoided. And yet more regulations. We have been stuck on this escalator for decades now, regardless of the stripe of government. I can't believe Starmer is the man to stop it myself.
    The governments problem in a nutshell. They’re instinctively keen on more regulation, (and tax) whilst simultaneously complaining about the effects of it.

    There is a lack of a clear ideological or mission-driven underpinning to all this.
    Being "Not the Tories" has run out of road.....
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 391

    DavidL said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    And then something will happen somewhere. And there will be the inevitable inquiry. And yet more recommendations as to how that particular something can be avoided. And yet more regulations. We have been stuck on this escalator for decades now, regardless of the stripe of government. I can't believe Starmer is the man to stop it myself.
    The governments problem in a nutshell. They’re instinctively keen on more regulation, (and tax) whilst simultaneously complaining about the effects of it.

    There is a lack of a clear ideological or mission-driven underpinning to all this.
    Are you sure? Looks like they are going all Keynesian with their infrastructure projects. Of course, they could just flood the market with cheap capital and hope it trickles down.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Here's the 2.Bundesliga table from this weekend:



    Notice how the top placed team - FC Magdeburg - has managed to win exactly zero games at home.

    All I can assume is that SKS is moonlighting as their manager.

    Fun fact, their manager is called Christian Titz, and yes his surname is pronounced exactly how your inner 14 year old schoolboy thinks it is.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,188
    edited January 29
    rcs1000 said:

    Here's the 2.Bundesliga table from this weekend:



    Notice how the top placed team - FC Magdeburg - has managed to win exactly zero games at home.

    All I can assume is that SKS is moonlighting as their manager.

    And yet they are top.

    Presumably because all the alternatives are worse, which largely explains the polling too.

    It's only 6 months in to a 5 year term, but there is no sign of a functioning opposition developing, just a bunch of keyboard warriors spamming each other.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Another morning, and we have another massive Russian oil refinery on fire.

    https://x.com/jayinkyiv/status/1884457729827242307

    Last weekend’s one was the 3rd biggest in the country, this one is 4th biggest with a capacity of 17m tonnes per year.

    Oh well, what a shame.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    I’ll believe he’s taking growth seriously when Ed Miliband gets fired and all the overdue infrastructure projects have spades in the ground.
  • Time to make Chelsea part of a POCA and relegate them to the National League.

    Roman Abramovich could owe UK £1bn over tax dodge that helped bankroll Chelsea FC

    Sanctioned Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich could owe the UK up to £1bn after a botched attempt to avoid tax on hedge fund investments, evidence seen by the BBC suggests.

    Leaked papers reveal investments worth $6bn (£4.7bn) were routed through companies in the British Virgin Islands (BVI). But evidence suggests they were managed from the UK, so should have been taxed there.

    Some of the money that funded Chelsea FC when Mr Abramovich owned it can be traced back to companies involved in the scheme, the BBC and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) also found.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrnqvqek4ro
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105

    DavidL said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    And then something will happen somewhere. And there will be the inevitable inquiry. And yet more recommendations as to how that particular something can be avoided. And yet more regulations. We have been stuck on this escalator for decades now, regardless of the stripe of government. I can't believe Starmer is the man to stop it myself.
    The governments problem in a nutshell. They’re instinctively keen on more regulation, (and tax) whilst simultaneously complaining about the effects of it.

    There is a lack of a clear ideological or mission-driven underpinning to all this.
    But that’s the problem with discussions about “regulation”. People convince themselves it’s a bad thing per se, rather than being something that’s there to protect consumers and just needs refinement.

    So someone comes along and deregulates unthinkingly, or regulates with a “light touch”. Then we get a disaster - a physical one like Grenfell, or a financial one like 2008, and everyone asks “how was this allowed to happen”?

    What the current government has started doing seems sensible, looking at ways in which regulations can be made fit for purpose. But if they start getting carried away, well that’s when things will start to go wrong.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,615
    Sandpit said:

    Another morning, and we have another massive Russian oil refinery on fire.

    https://x.com/jayinkyiv/status/1884457729827242307

    Last weekend’s one was the 3rd biggest in the country, this one is 4th biggest with a capacity of 17m tonnes per year.

    Oh well, what a shame.

    Allegedly one they recently hit had some from of anti-drone netting/wiring installed over it. Obviously it did not work, or did not protect enough of the plant.

    Perhaps we should not laugh: we are very susceptible to bad actors playing the sort of tactics Ukraine are. Given Russia's 'trials' at setting commercial aircraft afire, I would not rule it out, from them or a.n.other...

    (There are also videos of trails of fibre-optic cables across fields, from the wired drones Russia have started using to get round jamming.)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021

    Time to make Chelsea part of a POCA and relegate them to the National League.

    Roman Abramovich could owe UK £1bn over tax dodge that helped bankroll Chelsea FC

    Sanctioned Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich could owe the UK up to £1bn after a botched attempt to avoid tax on hedge fund investments, evidence seen by the BBC suggests.

    Leaked papers reveal investments worth $6bn (£4.7bn) were routed through companies in the British Virgin Islands (BVI). But evidence suggests they were managed from the UK, so should have been taxed there.

    Some of the money that funded Chelsea FC when Mr Abramovich owned it can be traced back to companies involved in the scheme, the BBC and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) also found.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrnqvqek4ro

    That’ll buy a few HIMARS and ATACMS missiles.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105

    Sandpit said:

    Another morning, and we have another massive Russian oil refinery on fire.

    https://x.com/jayinkyiv/status/1884457729827242307

    Last weekend’s one was the 3rd biggest in the country, this one is 4th biggest with a capacity of 17m tonnes per year.

    Oh well, what a shame.

    Allegedly one they recently hit had some from of anti-drone netting/wiring installed over it. Obviously it did not work, or did not protect enough of the plant.

    Perhaps we should not laugh: we are very susceptible to bad actors playing the sort of tactics Ukraine are. Given Russia's 'trials' at setting commercial aircraft afire, I would not rule it out, from them or a.n.other...

    (There are also videos of trails of fibre-optic cables across fields, from the wired drones Russia have started using to get round jamming.)
    It’s time Sir Keir expands the definition of “terrorist” to include Russia.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,666
    @100glitterstars

    Possibly the quote of the week, the year, the century and for eternity.

    "The minute we start going down that track *of looking for evidence*, I think we start to lose our way"

    Kemi Badenoch
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,373
    The passage of time might help Labour, even as the government does nothing.

    For the past two months, many families have been skint owing to Christmas. Not only is it a huge expense in itself but for people living from one payday to the next, there is a large gap caused by many employers paying wages early before Christmas, which then means a six or seven week gap to January's payday. (You can see service workers complaining about the lack of tips, btw, as both a corollary of this and an aggravating factor.)

    And much of the country has suffered the most appalling weather, with one named storm after another bringing wind and rain and floods and power cuts. Oh, and snow just after some idiot axed the heating or eating allowance.

    And on top of that, one of the worst flu seasons in memory.

    All of these things will naturally get better with time. Winter storms will end, temperatures will rise, money will flow into bank accounts this week, and so on.

    People will feel better, and as their woes evaporate, there is less reason to blame the government.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,210
    Good morning, everybody.

    I'm not sure it does demonstrate how damaged the Tory brand has become. In the past, how many times has a newly elected government become so unpopular so quickly? Maybe, in the past, the previous government has had time for memories to fade and refreshment to happen before the new government's honeymoon ended.
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 796
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    I’ll believe he’s taking growth seriously when Ed Miliband gets fired and all the overdue infrastructure projects have spades in the ground.
    Including all those overdue infrastructure projects being pushed forward by Ed Miliband’s department?

    Which minister has initiated by far the biggest volume of infrastructure investment since the election? Ed Miliband.

    “We need to build infrastructure!” “Oh, no not THAT sort of infrastructure.”
    Wrong sort of management seems to be main problem, large projects I've been on have prioritised senior managements' KPIs to the detriment of the project.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,954
    All the parties are unpopular. It's the theme of our times.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,543
    Good morning PB.

    Kemi will turn it around, but it will take a couple of years for people to be willing to take a fresh look at the Tories, IMO.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,543

    Good morning all from the golf course


    Nice photo! Thanks for sharing.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,506
    I am going to repost the link to that Atlantic article again, as it is well worth a read (if you can), and is tangentially relevant to this topic also.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/05/social-media-democracy-trust-babel

    In the contemporary political environment, it is hard to envisage what a government that does command majority approval would look like? Trump might be managing it for a short while through performative stunts, but when the hard work of governing begins….
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,945

    The passage of time might help Labour, even as the government does nothing.

    For the past two months, many families have been skint owing to Christmas. Not only is it a huge expense in itself but for people living from one payday to the next, there is a large gap caused by many employers paying wages early before Christmas, which then means a six or seven week gap to January's payday. (You can see service workers complaining about the lack of tips, btw, as both a corollary of this and an aggravating factor.)

    And much of the country has suffered the most appalling weather, with one named storm after another bringing wind and rain and floods and power cuts. Oh, and snow just after some idiot axed the heating or eating allowance.

    And on top of that, one of the worst flu seasons in memory.

    All of these things will naturally get better with time. Winter storms will end, temperatures will rise, money will flow into bank accounts this week, and so on.

    People will feel better, and as their woes evaporate, there is less reason to blame the government.

    Another one, which I think caused a genuine bouncelet for the government in the Sunak years.

    Many people still pay their Council Tax in ten installments with a payment holiday in February and March. So there's a nice surprise coming up.

    Besides, today was the first day when it was plausibly light when I left the house.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,506
    Sean_F said:

    Governments are never liked. But approval ratings tend to lead, not lag, voting intentions. Labour are still likely to drop to third, in coming months.

    As an aside, the two Canadian EKOS polls, which show a big rise in Liberal support, look like outliers.

    An anti-Trump backlash in Canada is to be expected in the circs, surely?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,923

    Time to make Chelsea part of a POCA and relegate them to the National League.

    Roman Abramovich could owe UK £1bn over tax dodge that helped bankroll Chelsea FC

    Sanctioned Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich could owe the UK up to £1bn after a botched attempt to avoid tax on hedge fund investments, evidence seen by the BBC suggests.

    Leaked papers reveal investments worth $6bn (£4.7bn) were routed through companies in the British Virgin Islands (BVI). But evidence suggests they were managed from the UK, so should have been taxed there.

    Some of the money that funded Chelsea FC when Mr Abramovich owned it can be traced back to companies involved in the scheme, the BBC and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) also found.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrnqvqek4ro

    Sadly it’s reported that the Premier League have accepted Chelsea’s argument that the dodgy payments were by the old owners so they shouldn’t get a points punishment, just a fine, and so I guess this would be viewed the same way.

    I guess City have the heads up that they will get a fine and transfer ban hence the big spending on expensive young players this window too.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,488
    Scott_xP said:

    @100glitterstars

    Possibly the quote of the week, the year, the century and for eternity.

    "The minute we start going down that track *of looking for evidence*, I think we start to lose our way"

    Kemi Badenoch

    Could I have a link please?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 44,615

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    I agree, there is a lot of stupid blind opposition (tbf, there was when the Conservatives were in power). But it is possible to believe this government want to deregulate, but not believe they will find it possible because they are ideologically incapable of deregulating.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,543
    edited January 29

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Well, what exactly have the government done so far to "go for growth" (other than saying they are going for growth) ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Rather like Rishi Sunak thinking that all he needed to do was talk about stopping the boats, all Keir Starmer thinks he needs to do all talk about growth, rather than actually doing anything about it. Everything his government has actually done in the last six months will strangle growth rather than enable it.

    I’ll be first in line to give him his dues, when he actually produces growth through his actions and those of his government.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,543
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @100glitterstars

    Possibly the quote of the week, the year, the century and for eternity.

    "The minute we start going down that track *of looking for evidence*, I think we start to lose our way"

    Kemi Badenoch

    Could I have a link please?
    Sounds like Fake News doesn't it?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,541

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    I agree, there is a lot of stupid blind opposition (tbf, there was when the Conservatives were in power). But it is possible to believe this government want to deregulate, but not believe they will find it possible because they are ideologically incapable of deregulating.
    I'm quite close to putting "deregulate" in the same box as "productivity growth" and "reform", as things that people say all the time, but don't understand and/or can't be specific about.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,923
    GIN1138 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @100glitterstars

    Possibly the quote of the week, the year, the century and for eternity.

    "The minute we start going down that track *of looking for evidence*, I think we start to lose our way"

    Kemi Badenoch

    Could I have a link please?
    Sounds like Fake News doesn't it?
    I doubt it, only the populist right does shit like that.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    GIN1138 said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Well, what exactly have the government done so far to "go for growth" (other than saying they are going for growth) ?
    They have sought the advice of the regulators and raised employment costs on businesses.

    A winning strategy.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,835
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    I’ll believe he’s taking growth seriously when Ed Miliband gets fired and all the overdue infrastructure projects have spades in the ground.
    Including all those overdue infrastructure projects being pushed forward by Ed Miliband’s department?

    Which minister has initiated by far the biggest volume of infrastructure investment since the election? Ed Miliband.

    “We need to build infrastructure!” “Oh, no not THAT sort of infrastructure.”
    Sorry, perhaps we should specify 'necessary and useful infrastructure'.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Taz said:

    GIN1138 said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Well, what exactly have the government done so far to "go for growth" (other than saying they are going for growth) ?
    They have sought the advice of the regulators and raised employment costs on businesses.

    A winning strategy.
    Regulate yourself to growth, it’s as easy as spending your way out of debt.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105
    I suspect the opinion shifts in polling as usual are not happening uniformly but rather in social and regional patterns that are evened out in national polling.

    Among the professional metro remainer capitalist world this government really annoyed everyone in the run up to and the month or so after the budget. There was a sense of real disillusionment at a seeming lack of ideas or common sense. But that has definitely changed since new year. I’m sensing more positivity towards the government again. Probably associated with the vibe shift on the economy.

    I’d guess the ceasefire in Gaza probably helps shore up Labour support in the cities too.

    Meanwhile as we see on this forum, the more Brexity, Red wally Labour vote that left in 2019 but returned last year appears to be switching away in droves.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    edited January 29

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    What is there to analyse. It is just words at the moment.

    If they do it, great, Reeves is starting to say the right things IMV on growth and I have said as much here but there comes a time when you have to walk the walk rather than just talk the talk.

    Hopefully that time is now.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    Sandpit said:

    Taz said:

    GIN1138 said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Well, what exactly have the government done so far to "go for growth" (other than saying they are going for growth) ?
    They have sought the advice of the regulators and raised employment costs on businesses.

    A winning strategy.
    Regulate yourself to growth, it’s as easy as spending your way out of debt.
    The only thing you grow is regulators and the only thing you build are bat shelters.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    I’ll believe he’s taking growth seriously when Ed Miliband gets fired and all the overdue infrastructure projects have spades in the ground.
    Including all those overdue infrastructure projects being pushed forward by Ed Miliband’s department?

    Which minister has initiated by far the biggest volume of infrastructure investment since the election? Ed Miliband.

    “We need to build infrastructure!” “Oh, no not THAT sort of infrastructure.”
    Sorry, perhaps we should specify 'necessary and useful infrastructure'.
    I know we’re all Trumpists now but there remain a few people in the country for whom, for example, government fast tracking for offshore wind farms is necessary and useful.

    “I want infrastructure, but not in my ideological back yard”.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105
    edited January 29
    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Rather like Rishi Sunak thinking that all he needed to do was talk about stopping the boats, all Keir Starmer thinks he needs to do all talk about growth, rather than actually doing anything about it. Everything his government has actually done in the last six months will strangle growth rather than enable it.

    I’ll be first in line to give him his dues, when he actually produces growth through his actions and those of his government.
    To be fair, Reeves’ negative talk last autumn had a definite impact on business and consumer confidence. It stands to reason that if careless talk costs growth, then positive talk is going to help. Can’t have it both ways.
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    I agree, there is a lot of stupid blind opposition (tbf, there was when the Conservatives were in power). But it is possible to believe this government want to deregulate, but not believe they will find it possible because they are ideologically incapable of deregulating.
    The alternative take is Starmer's approach to that A47 protestor. No, there won't be a bonfire of regulation. But there will be a meaningful pruning of regulatory abuse and overreach. And someone who believes in rules has got a better chance of making that work and stick than someone who just wants to burn it all down.

    But yes, proof of pudding, eating and all that. For the next four years, all most of us can do is wait and see and heckle.
    One thing said to embolden these frivolous complaints is the cap on the complainants costs due to the Aarhus convention.

    Assuming this is correct, it is something people have commented on social media about, is this something we can simply opt out of to ensure they pay the full cost incurred.

    https://www.landmarkchambers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/TB-Aarhus-costs-rules.pdf
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,004
    edited January 29
    GIN1138 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @100glitterstars

    Possibly the quote of the week, the year, the century and for eternity.

    "The minute we start going down that track *of looking for evidence*, I think we start to lose our way"

    Kemi Badenoch

    Could I have a link please?
    Sounds like Fake News doesn't it?
    I think it is from her evidence to the Covid Inquiry on Monday, she was Equalities Minister during Covid and was focussing on why initially the vaccine had a lower uptake amongst ethnic minorities at the start.

    She was talking about people looking for fake news in that quote to justify not having the vaccine.
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 391

    All the parties are unpopular. It's the theme of our times.

    Or if you hold to some of Varoufakis's theory we're being told how to think by those controlling social media

    @rcs1000 and @TheScreamingEagles may wish to comment - or tell us what to say.

    https://x.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1754175896146080157
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 52,958
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    And then something will happen somewhere. And there will be the inevitable inquiry. And yet more recommendations as to how that particular something can be avoided. And yet more regulations. We have been stuck on this escalator for decades now, regardless of the stripe of government. I can't believe Starmer is the man to stop it myself.
    The governments problem in a nutshell. They’re instinctively keen on more regulation, (and tax) whilst simultaneously complaining about the effects of it.

    There is a lack of a clear ideological or mission-driven underpinning to all this.
    But that’s the problem with discussions about “regulation”. People convince themselves it’s a bad thing per se, rather than being something that’s there to protect consumers and just needs refinement.

    So someone comes along and deregulates unthinkingly, or regulates with a “light touch”. Then we get a disaster - a physical one like Grenfell, or a financial one like 2008, and everyone asks “how was this allowed to happen”?

    What the current government has started doing seems sensible, looking at ways in which regulations can be made fit for purpose. But if they start getting carried away, well that’s when things will start to go wrong.
    Both the finance industry and building are (and were) heavily regulated.

    It’s just that the performative bullshit didn’t including proper risk management in the banks. And buildings covered in firelighters was AOK according to the regs - though there was additional lying at Grenfell.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,445
    Remind me never to fly “Myanmar International Airways” ever again. Ever
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,202
    edited January 29
    IanB2 said:

    I am going to repost the link to that Atlantic article again, as it is well worth a read (if you can), and is tangentially relevant to this topic also.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2022/05/social-media-democracy-trust-babel

    In the contemporary political environment, it is hard to envisage what a government that does command majority approval would look like? Trump might be managing it for a short while through performative stunts, but when the hard work of governing begins….

    Got a page not found error.
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Rather like Rishi Sunak thinking that all he needed to do was talk about stopping the boats, all Keir Starmer thinks he needs to do all talk about growth, rather than actually doing anything about it. Everything his government has actually done in the last six months will strangle growth rather than enable it.

    I’ll be first in line to give him his dues, when he actually produces growth through his actions and those of his government.
    To be fair, Reeves’ negative talk last autumn had a definite impact on business and consumer confidence. It stands to reason that if careless talk costs growth, then positive talk is going to help. Can’t have it both ways.
    While positive talk is a good thing, many processes only work one way. You can boil an egg, but cooling it down won't unboil it.

    Edited extra bit: oh, and good morning, everyone.
  • Leon said:

    Remind me never to fly “Myanmar International Airways” ever again. Ever

    Yes, fly Air France next time.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    edited January 29
    Leon said:

    Remind me never to fly “Myanmar International Airways” ever again. Ever

    Worse than Air France?

    Edit: damn, beaten to it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,624

    Leon said:

    Remind me never to fly “Myanmar International Airways” ever again. Ever

    Yes, fly Air France next time.
    I thought it was 'crash with Air Chance?'
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,612
    edited January 29
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Rather like Rishi Sunak thinking that all he needed to do was talk about stopping the boats, all Keir Starmer thinks he needs to do all talk about growth, rather than actually doing anything about it. Everything his government has actually done in the last six months will strangle growth rather than enable it.

    I’ll be first in line to give him his dues, when he actually produces growth through his actions and those of his government.
    To be fair, Reeves’ negative talk last autumn had a definite impact on business and consumer confidence. It stands to reason that if careless talk costs growth, then positive talk is going to help. Can’t have it both ways.
    We must hope it will and the mood music from the govt has really changed in that respect since last summer. I personally feel people tend to be more negative than positive and will listen to bad news far more than optimism. However the talking the economy down ended up with the economy going into reverse. So far the optimistic mood music from the govt has not seen a resultant improvement in the economy so far. Once it does I think people will give them a fair hearing.

    But one can only hope the positivity now emanating from the govt cascades through into the wider economy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Battlebus said:

    All the parties are unpopular. It's the theme of our times.

    Or if you hold to some of Varoufakis's theory we're being told how to think by those controlling social media

    @rcs1000 and @TheScreamingEagles may wish to comment - or tell us what to say.

    https://x.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1754175896146080157
    A long thread on how the US election was won online.

    https://x.com/njhochman/status/1883885981092438059
  • BattlebusBattlebus Posts: 391
    Taz said:

    GIN1138 said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Well, what exactly have the government done so far to "go for growth" (other than saying they are going for growth) ?
    They have sought the advice of the regulators and raised employment costs on businesses.

    A winning strategy.
    You don't get growth by holding the status quo. Some of the jobs (and companies) around are in a holding pattern. They should have folded during Covid but we kept going by grants, loans and in some cases, fraud.

    If you want change / growth / whatever you want to call it, some jobs/companies have to die if they cannot adapt to the pressures.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,923
    edited January 29
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Rather like Rishi Sunak thinking that all he needed to do was talk about stopping the boats, all Keir Starmer thinks he needs to do all talk about growth, rather than actually doing anything about it. Everything his government has actually done in the last six months will strangle growth rather than enable it.

    I’ll be first in line to give him his dues, when he actually produces growth through his actions and those of his government.
    To be fair, Reeves’ negative talk last autumn had a definite impact on business and consumer confidence. It stands to reason that if careless talk costs growth, then positive talk is going to help. Can’t have it both ways.
    Only to a point. If you say to your wife “you are a terrible cook, a useless lover and your face makes me vomit” and then turn round seven months later and say “your food is exquisite, your lovemaking is heavenly and your face is alright” the damage is done and you might get a bit of credit that things have improved in your mind but the scars are still there and the fact that she went and shagged your best friend to make her feel better can’t be undone.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,785

    rcs1000 said:

    Here's the 2.Bundesliga table from this weekend:



    Notice how the top placed team - FC Magdeburg - has managed to win exactly zero games at home.

    All I can assume is that SKS is moonlighting as their manager.

    Fun fact, their manager is called Christian Titz, and yes his surname is pronounced exactly how your inner 14 year old schoolboy thinks it is.
    Needs a job in Italy so he can call himself Signor Titz
    La Liga also.

    France - Monsieur (miss your) Titz.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 56,021
    Ooh, it’s not just old Soviet Hamas kit flying from Israel to Poland, 90 Patriot batteries on the way too.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/1884332534751977932
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,156

    Time to make Chelsea part of a POCA and relegate them to the National League.

    Roman Abramovich could owe UK £1bn over tax dodge that helped bankroll Chelsea FC

    Sanctioned Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich could owe the UK up to £1bn after a botched attempt to avoid tax on hedge fund investments, evidence seen by the BBC suggests.

    Leaked papers reveal investments worth $6bn (£4.7bn) were routed through companies in the British Virgin Islands (BVI). But evidence suggests they were managed from the UK, so should have been taxed there.

    Some of the money that funded Chelsea FC when Mr Abramovich owned it can be traced back to companies involved in the scheme, the BBC and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism (TBIJ) also found.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgrnqvqek4ro

    Perhaps the Treasury could take it in lieu of tax.
    And redevelop the site as social housing...
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105

    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    And then something will happen somewhere. And there will be the inevitable inquiry. And yet more recommendations as to how that particular something can be avoided. And yet more regulations. We have been stuck on this escalator for decades now, regardless of the stripe of government. I can't believe Starmer is the man to stop it myself.
    The governments problem in a nutshell. They’re instinctively keen on more regulation, (and tax) whilst simultaneously complaining about the effects of it.

    There is a lack of a clear ideological or mission-driven underpinning to all this.
    But that’s the problem with discussions about “regulation”. People convince themselves it’s a bad thing per se, rather than being something that’s there to protect consumers and just needs refinement.

    So someone comes along and deregulates unthinkingly, or regulates with a “light touch”. Then we get a disaster - a physical one like Grenfell, or a financial one like 2008, and everyone asks “how was this allowed to happen”?

    What the current government has started doing seems sensible, looking at ways in which regulations can be made fit for purpose. But if they start getting carried away, well that’s when things will start to go wrong.
    Both the finance industry and building are (and were) heavily regulated.

    It’s just that the performative bullshit didn’t including proper risk management in the banks. And buildings covered in firelighters was AOK according to the regs - though there was additional lying at Grenfell.
    Grenfell was a classic case of regulators lacking independence and being too influenced by industry, and becoming box ticking rather than judgment based. Exactly the point: regulation is necessary and important. The thing is to regulate effectively.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,156
    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Rather like Rishi Sunak thinking that all he needed to do was talk about stopping the boats, all Keir Starmer thinks he needs to do all talk about growth, rather than actually doing anything about it. Everything his government has actually done in the last six months will strangle growth rather than enable it.

    I’ll be first in line to give him his dues, when he actually produces growth through his actions and those of his government.
    To be fair, Reeves’ negative talk last autumn had a definite impact on business and consumer confidence. It stands to reason that if careless talk costs growth, then positive talk is going to help. Can’t have it both ways.
    Only to a point. If you say to your wife “you are a terrible cook, a useless lover and your face makes me vomit” and then turn round seven months later and say “your food is exquisite, your lovemaking is heavenly and your face is alright” the damage is done and you might get a bit of credit that things have improved in your mind but the scars are still there and the fact that she went and shagged your best friend to make her feel better can’t be undone.

    Is that the previous government, or this one that you're on about ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,445
    edited January 29
    Inter alia the stuff coming out of Labour - deregulate and grow! - is not just vapid bilge - it is also a tacit but clinching argument for Brexit

    Because, even if we did manage to sweep away all the stifling red tape and wankery, if we were still in the EU we would then confront an immovable second layer of EU rules and regs. Which are now destroying the EU economically

  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,445
    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Remind me never to fly “Myanmar International Airways” ever again. Ever

    Worse than Air France?

    Edit: damn, beaten to it.
    I got the distinct impression the pilot didn’t know how to fly a plane

    Sub-optimal
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,803
    TimS said:

    By and large the UK has a pretty effective and intelligent regulatory regime by international standards. Just ask any multinational investor: it’s relatively easy to start and run a business, hire and fire, raise capital, pay tax, restructure. We’re seen as one of the straightforward markets, without being the Wild West.

    The big area where we are recalcitrant and extremely difficult to navigate is the planning regime. Yes there are other aspects of regulation that should be looked at, but when it comes to regulation that strangles growth it’s planning planning planning.

    Does the electorate want development? I am not so sure
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105
    boulay said:

    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Rather like Rishi Sunak thinking that all he needed to do was talk about stopping the boats, all Keir Starmer thinks he needs to do all talk about growth, rather than actually doing anything about it. Everything his government has actually done in the last six months will strangle growth rather than enable it.

    I’ll be first in line to give him his dues, when he actually produces growth through his actions and those of his government.
    To be fair, Reeves’ negative talk last autumn had a definite impact on business and consumer confidence. It stands to reason that if careless talk costs growth, then positive talk is going to help. Can’t have it both ways.
    Only to a point. If you say to your wife “you are a terrible cook, a useless lover and your face makes me vomit” and then turn round seven months later and say “your food is exquisite, your lovemaking is heavenly and your face is alright” the damage is done and you might get a bit of credit that things have improved in your mind but the scars are still there and the fact that she went and shagged your best friend to make her feel better can’t be undone.

    What they were attempting to say was “your ex husband was even more of a shit than I thought. He’s left you a broken woman”. Trouble is they stopped there. They just forgot to add “but together we’re going to put that bastard behind us. You and me were made to be together”.

    But kind of better to be saying nice things now than carrying on with the negging, right?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,666
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @100glitterstars

    Possibly the quote of the week, the year, the century and for eternity.

    "The minute we start going down that track *of looking for evidence*, I think we start to lose our way"

    Kemi Badenoch

    Could I have a link please?
    It's from her weekend BBC interview

    She said people ask what the evidence is and then conversations turn to language.

    “The minute you start going down that sort of track, we start to lose our way,” she said.

    Badenoch added: “It’s very difficult to get this kind of evidence, we do need personal experience, we do need anecdotes, those are things that really help us shift the dial. We need a whole society approach and integration, I’m not scared to tell these hard truths.”


    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/kemi-badenoch-says-no-further-115508311.html
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,156

    GIN1138 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @100glitterstars

    Possibly the quote of the week, the year, the century and for eternity.

    "The minute we start going down that track *of looking for evidence*, I think we start to lose our way"

    Kemi Badenoch

    Could I have a link please?
    Sounds like Fake News doesn't it?
    I think it is from her evidence to the Covid Inquiry on Monday, she was Equalities Minister during Covid and was focussing on why initially the vaccine had a lower uptake amongst ethnic minorities at the start.

    She was talking about people looking for fake news in that quote to justify not having the vaccine.
    Though from recent commentary, she seems to have taken it as a general lesson, and ever since eschewed any effort to seek evidence for her policies.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105

    TimS said:

    By and large the UK has a pretty effective and intelligent regulatory regime by international standards. Just ask any multinational investor: it’s relatively easy to start and run a business, hire and fire, raise capital, pay tax, restructure. We’re seen as one of the straightforward markets, without being the Wild West.

    The big area where we are recalcitrant and extremely difficult to navigate is the planning regime. Yes there are other aspects of regulation that should be looked at, but when it comes to regulation that strangles growth it’s planning planning planning.

    Does the electorate want development? I am not so sure
    They do, but…er…not in their backyards.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,156
    Leon said:

    Sandpit said:

    Leon said:

    Remind me never to fly “Myanmar International Airways” ever again. Ever

    Worse than Air France?

    Edit: damn, beaten to it.
    I got the distinct impression the pilot didn’t know how to fly a plane

    Sub-optimal
    You landed in one piece, didn't you ?

    S Korea seems to be having less luck.
    https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=391171
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,803

    TimS said:

    By and large the UK has a pretty effective and intelligent regulatory regime by international standards. Just ask any multinational investor: it’s relatively easy to start and run a business, hire and fire, raise capital, pay tax, restructure. We’re seen as one of the straightforward markets, without being the Wild West.

    The big area where we are recalcitrant and extremely difficult to navigate is the planning regime. Yes there are other aspects of regulation that should be looked at, but when it comes to regulation that strangles growth it’s planning planning planning.

    Does the electorate want development? I am not so sure
    To expand on this, ever been on a local community facebook group where there’s a post about planning permission? Hundreds of comments about any development being too big, inappropriate, too many people, “we are not a city”, “the council should build X instead”etc etc. These kind of comments are not usually from the Labour voting type but the Tory/Reform voting type.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,105

    TimS said:

    By and large the UK has a pretty effective and intelligent regulatory regime by international standards. Just ask any multinational investor: it’s relatively easy to start and run a business, hire and fire, raise capital, pay tax, restructure. We’re seen as one of the straightforward markets, without being the Wild West.

    The big area where we are recalcitrant and extremely difficult to navigate is the planning regime. Yes there are other aspects of regulation that should be looked at, but when it comes to regulation that strangles growth it’s planning planning planning.

    Does the electorate want development? I am not so sure
    To expand on this, ever been on a local community facebook group where there’s a post about planning permission? Hundreds of comments about any development being too big, inappropriate, too many people, “we are not a city”, “the council should build X instead”etc etc. These kind of comments are not usually from the Labour voting type but the Tory/Reform voting type.
    In my experience they’re from all types (over the age of 50). We even get them here in inner London.

    I make a point of never adding my name to an objection, and writing in support of developments (including one literally in - well overlooking - my backyard).
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 14,032
    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, it’s not just old Soviet Hamas kit flying from Israel to Poland, 90 Patriot batteries on the way too.

    https://x.com/maks_nafo_fella/status/1884332534751977932

    An interceptor is 1 x PAC-2/3 missile not a whole battery. They are only about 40 batteries in the entire US arsenal.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,445

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Because this Labour government is simultaneously lying, delusional, stupid, talentless, idiotic, self-destructive, and inept

    I’ll believe this new “growth strategy” when a spade goes in the dirt at Heathrow. Not until
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,624
    Leon said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Because this Labour government is simultaneously lying, delusional, stupid, talentless, idiotic, self-destructive, and inept

    I’ll believe this new “growth strategy” when a spade goes in the dirt at Heathrow. Not until
    Are you suggesting that only an idiot would have voted for them?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,803
    edited January 29
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    By and large the UK has a pretty effective and intelligent regulatory regime by international standards. Just ask any multinational investor: it’s relatively easy to start and run a business, hire and fire, raise capital, pay tax, restructure. We’re seen as one of the straightforward markets, without being the Wild West.

    The big area where we are recalcitrant and extremely difficult to navigate is the planning regime. Yes there are other aspects of regulation that should be looked at, but when it comes to regulation that strangles growth it’s planning planning planning.

    Does the electorate want development? I am not so sure
    To expand on this, ever been on a local community facebook group where there’s a post about planning permission? Hundreds of comments about any development being too big, inappropriate, too many people, “we are not a city”, “the council should build X instead”etc etc. These kind of comments are not usually from the Labour voting type but the Tory/Reform voting type.
    In my experience they’re from all types (over the age of 50). We even get them here in inner London.

    I make a point of never adding my name to an objection, and writing in support of developments (including one literally in - well overlooking - my backyard).
    Here’s a good topical example in Morpeth, Northumberland.

    https://publicaccess.northumberland.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=details&keyVal=SOC7YZQSG1700
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,666
    Sir Keir Starmer has compared his government to Margaret Thatcher’s as he pledges to cut through “thickets of red tape” to clear the way for growth.

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg

    Sorry, what was that, "join the single market" you say...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,243
    Quebec's new language law going well:

    https://www.montrealgazette.com/news/article710168.html

    "Montreal library cites language law for refusing space to anglo book club."

    I suppose we should be glad they're not kidnapping diplomats any more.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 58,445
    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Because this Labour government is simultaneously lying, delusional, stupid, talentless, idiotic, self-destructive, and inept

    I’ll believe this new “growth strategy” when a spade goes in the dirt at Heathrow. Not until
    Are you suggesting that only an idiot would have voted for them?
    Either that or someone so small minded and petty he voted for Labour solely to discomfort a woke retired accountant in Hampstead
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,164
    Evening all from New Zealand :)

    It’s all about “growth” here as well and Prime Minister Luxon’s latest gimmick has been to increase speed limits on parts of the State Highway network from 80 kph to 100 kph as part of “accelerating New Zealand”.

    Well, yes, and 100 kph is interesting on a worn single carriage way road masquerading as a major arterial road. To be fair, there seems plenty of support for the changes but whether they will deliver high levels of growth remains to be seen.

    The Luxon/Willis/Bishop axis is about doing things the old fashioned way with a nod to Cameron-Osborne-Clegg austerity but the intended sale of some State “assets” has drawn the ire of Winston Peters, the head of New Zealand First, who, rather like Reform, quite likes public spending especially in rural parts of New Zealand.

    New Zealand depends on a strong export market and the chill wind of protectionism is worrying many here.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 125,652
    It should be noted that even on that new Yougov poll the Tories would remain comfortably second on seats even if behind Reform by 1% on votes.

    However Labour would scrape home with a tiny majority under FPTP because of the divide on the right between Tories and Reform despite Starmer only matching Foot's voteshare in 1983
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 9,541

    TimS said:

    By and large the UK has a pretty effective and intelligent regulatory regime by international standards. Just ask any multinational investor: it’s relatively easy to start and run a business, hire and fire, raise capital, pay tax, restructure. We’re seen as one of the straightforward markets, without being the Wild West.

    The big area where we are recalcitrant and extremely difficult to navigate is the planning regime. Yes there are other aspects of regulation that should be looked at, but when it comes to regulation that strangles growth it’s planning planning planning.

    Does the electorate want development? I am not so sure
    The only way it is remotely (politically) feasible is if you reduce net migration to the low 10,000s.
  • UnpopularUnpopular Posts: 899
    TimS said:

    Sandpit said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    I’ll believe he’s taking growth seriously when Ed Miliband gets fired and all the overdue infrastructure projects have spades in the ground.
    Including all those overdue infrastructure projects being pushed forward by Ed Miliband’s department?

    Which minister has initiated by far the biggest volume of infrastructure investment since the election? Ed Miliband.

    “We need to build infrastructure!” “Oh, no not THAT sort of infrastructure.”
    There does seem to be a bit of a blind spot with Ed Miliband. I was reading in the Times last week (someone had left it about, I don't make a habit of it) about a protest over a solar farm at Blenheim and that Miliband is likely to push it through. I think people are remembering him from his time in opposition, which was both a) a long time ago and b) a different environment to being in Government. Generally he seems pretty keen on delivering green (washed?) infrastructure.

    Incidentally I think you can look at end IHT allowance for Farmers in this context too. The NPPF is going to provide development opportunities for some of that land and if Farmers (or, more importantly, people who brought as an IHT dodge) end up downsizing they might get a pretty good price. It seems to me that the Government is at least incentivising development.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 74,156
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Because this Labour government is simultaneously lying, delusional, stupid, talentless, idiotic, self-destructive, and inept

    I’ll believe this new “growth strategy” when a spade goes in the dirt at Heathrow. Not until
    Are you suggesting that only an idiot would have voted for them?
    Either that or someone so small minded and petty he voted for Labour solely to discomfort a woke retired accountant in Hampstead
    Someone's been working in that excuse for months.
    Less convincing than Reeves.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,624
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    Leon said:

    So how do Labour turn this around?

    There are ways - an appearance of competence would be a good start - but I'm unsure SKS or his team have it in them.

    Keir Starmer invokes Margaret Thatcher as he goes for growth

    We must ‘cure the sickness of stagnation and decline’ in Britain, the PM says while taking aim at ‘overreach’ by watchdogs


    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/keir-starmer-invokes-margaret-thatcher-as-he-goes-for-growth-kvp2fhbmg
    yes, but he wont scrap them will he ? He'll make bleaty noises and then approve more laws and restrictions.
    PB Right: the government should go for growth and deregulate.

    Government: we should go for growth and deregulate.

    PB Right: don’t believe them.

    What is the point of this discourse? There is no analysis, no engagement, just blind opposition for the sake of it.
    Because this Labour government is simultaneously lying, delusional, stupid, talentless, idiotic, self-destructive, and inept

    I’ll believe this new “growth strategy” when a spade goes in the dirt at Heathrow. Not until
    Are you suggesting that only an idiot would have voted for them?
    Either that or someone so small minded and petty he voted for Labour solely to discomfort a woke retired accountant in Hampstead
    Well, we could never accuse you of that.

    Perhaps it was Eadric that did it?
This discussion has been closed.