I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not and never have been a core Labour voter.
If I were to be polled now I'd say "don't know".
We need a psephological category for people who voted like you in 2024. How about "Starmer's Strivers"?
There seem to be quite a disparate group of us on PB.com who voted Labour for the first time, or at least the first time in a long time, at the GE. The only thing that seems to unite us is the belief that the Tory government had completely jumped the shark, and the country couldn't move on until they were ejected from office. So perhaps something like,
Starmer's Standards Stormtroopers
It's particularly striking given that Labour's poll share at the GE was surprisingly low, that there were so many of us lending our vote to them last time.
PMQs should be a bit more interesting . Badenoch is a bit of a mystery for most of the public and it will be interesting to see how she performs in her new role.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
We don't need his vote at the moment, we could form a government with won back Reform voters or in coalition with Reform even if Bart stayed voting Labour
You really are a blue Corbynite.
Chase after Farage and his bunch of racists, nuts and loons and I won't be the only ex Tory voting Labour to keep you and him out of office.
38% voted Tory and Reform in July, 34% like you voted Labour
Tory and Reform are different parties.
You don't get to add different parties votes together.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
We don't need his vote at the moment, we could form a government with won back Reform voters or in coalition with Reform even if Bart stayed voting Labour
You really are a blue Corbynite.
Chase after Farage and his bunch of racists, nuts and loons and I won't be the only ex Tory voting Labour to keep you and him out of office.
While not all Reform voters are racist it seems a fair number are the "Tommy Robinson Tendency". It was notable that the Reform polling noticably ticked up when Sunak became leader. I suspect that Kemi won't win over those voters, but I think that a good thing for the Conservative Party.
I shall be interested who she brings onto the Front Bench that she installs. I don't believe in "The Blob" in the sense of an inertia riddled Civil Service, but I think it does exist in the wider sense. Even the most modest of changes to welfare entitlements or to tax policy involving a mere 3.5% change in UK tax revenue creates a furore as if the sky is falling, not just within the press and social media but also the financial markets. Proposing anything like Truss or Corbyn would probably be impossible now.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
Rees Mogg isn't an MP.
Some good news for the Conservative Party from the last election.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
Rees Mogg isn't an MP.
On this week's BMG poll Rees Mogg would win back his Somerset seat from Labour at the next general election
The Tories need to enter the next election as the clear challengers, which means defeating Reform first.
In what world do the Tories not enter the next election as clear challengers?
I fear that in your hurry to give the Tories what you think of as bad advice you have strayed into an absurdity.
Reform want to surpass the Tories. In 2024 they were only a few percentage points behind. It would take much if Badenoch tanks. And even if she doesn’t with only 120 seats in FPTP it is folly to ignored Reform.
23.7 vs 14.3 is "only a few percentage points"?
And can you remind me of the current makeup of Reform's target seats?
So complacent. The SDP had zero % of the vote in 79 and nearly came second in 83. The Tories are more vulnerable than they have ever been. They lost Horsham and Chichester last time. Yet that is ignored. Weird.
The leadership result is announced at 11am but I'm busy then, so I'll pick it up later.
Kemi should have it, but why do I have this lingering feeling of unease that Jenrick is going to spring a surprise?
Same here but I know why I have the feeling of unease.
It's a direct consequence of the feeling of unease I have that there is a large enough proportion of the Tory membership who are racist to tip the balance.
My suspicions were misplaced, I was wrong. Regardless of the quality or otherwise of the victor, I think it's a huge positive that the Troy membership has elected a black leader.
Congratulations to (not Nigerian born) Kemi Badenoch and to the Tory members for choosing the better of the two unpalatable offerings available. I also have some doubts about her being leader at the time of the next GE, but I'm sure she'll give it a good shot. Can she turn her focus away from owning the libz and onto the kind of issues that normal people care about? I suspect not but let's see.
from which the first link is taken, are essential reading on what kind of direction Kemi's Conservatives might take.
I'm an incredibly socially liberal, libertarian type, and still manage to find much to agree with in the above writings.
Rather than being part of the "PC gone mad" "common sense" anti-woke stuff Reform push, it's a much more comprehensive argument that society has become less liberal and tolerant as a result of ideological capture by left leaning bureaucracy - call it the blob, the nu10k, whatever. And that its view is more bureaucracy, more government, is always the solution, and that needs to be challenged.
Her argument seems to be more that the "bureaucratic class" is an assault on capitalism, rather than "woke ideology is destroying our children".
Cautiously optimistic that Kemi will surprise to the upside. With Starmer and Reeves pushing tax and spend, low growth, big government, on us all, we will need an effective opposition to challenge an ever encroaching state.
Thanks for the link, an interesting read although I was slightly triggered by the capitalisation of Malaise.
Thing is, I think this is superficially very appealing (and I say that as a fairly hard leftist). But my only experience of the reality of this is in teaching, where one of the main sources of bureaucracy comes in through trying to prevent kids being abused, either at home or in school. Whilst the form-filling is time consuming and creates unproductive roles for administrators, I still think that is a better world than one in which child molesters are allowed to be with kids unsupervised.
To rephrase, how to do you remove the bureaucracy whilst keeping protections in place? Or do you accept less protection eg more kids being abused? Or is there another solution?
I realise I've just picked one aspect of bureaucracy, but there is also a wider question - which bits of paperwork for eg planning are the important ones? That's quite a hard, value-laden question to answer (not to say it shouldn't be asked, though).
Re-reading your comment on planning
A friend had an old property that he didn’t need. He got the planning permission to turn it into 2 units and then gave it to a local charity for social housing.
The planning people made the charity redo all the expert reports - at a cost of thousands and a delay of months - because the LibDems on the council insisted that because they were addressed to my friend they were no longer valid and it wasn’t possible to assign the reports to the charity.
Is there a name for this council that actually allows councillors to get that close to the details?
It was in Hampshire
There is more to this story. Normally Councillors do not get involved in planning issues. A Councillor would have to "call it in". It seems unlikely in the extreme that a Councillor of any party would call in a planning issue to delay things and increase costs to a charity. It just doesn't ring true.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
If the right wing loon fails, replace her with an even bigger right wing loon.
Yes. That will work.
Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017, higher than Starmer, Brown or Ed Miliband or even Blair in 2005 got and a hung parliament by uniting the left behind him. Under FPTP or even PR not impossible a united right can win
"The Right" has already lost its left flank to the Lib Dems and in some cases even to Labour. Lurching further rightwards and any remaining One Nation types will be saying goodbye to the Tories too.
And as been said on here many, many times, not all ReFuk voters are Tories on a gap year. Many have never voted, and would never vote, Conservative.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
We don't need his vote at the moment, we could form a government with won back Reform voters or in coalition with Reform even if Bart stayed voting Labour
You really are a blue Corbynite.
Chase after Farage and his bunch of racists, nuts and loons and I won't be the only ex Tory voting Labour to keep you and him out of office.
While not all Reform voters are racist it seems a fair number are the "Tommy Robinson Tendency". It was notable that the Reform polling noticably ticked up when Sunak became leader. I suspect that Kemi won't win over those voters, but I think that a good thing for the Conservative Party.
I shall be interested who she brings onto the Front Bench that she installs. I don't believe in "The Blob" in the sense of an inertia riddled Civil Service, but I think it does exist in the wider sense. Even the most modest of changes to welfare entitlements or to tax policy involving a mere 3.5% change in UK tax revenue creates a furore as if the sky is falling, not just within the press and social media but also the financial markets. Proposing anything like Truss or Corbyn would probably be impossible now.
Rishi's government was characterised by other things than his race though. Primarily, it was thought by many conservatives not to be particularly conservative - on tax and spend, on immigration, etc. That, far more than Rishi's akin colour, explains the leak to Reform.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
We don't need his vote at the moment, we could form a government with won back Reform voters or in coalition with Reform even if Bart stayed voting Labour
You really are a blue Corbynite.
Chase after Farage and his bunch of racists, nuts and loons and I won't be the only ex Tory voting Labour to keep you and him out of office.
While not all Reform voters are racist it seems a fair number are the "Tommy Robinson Tendency". It was notable that the Reform polling noticably ticked up when Sunak became leader. I suspect that Kemi won't win over those voters, but I think that a good thing for the Conservative Party.
I shall be interested who she brings onto the Front Bench that she installs. I don't believe in "The Blob" in the sense of an inertia riddled Civil Service, but I think it does exist in the wider sense. Even the most modest of changes to welfare entitlements or to tax policy involving a mere 3.5% change in UK tax revenue creates a furore as if the sky is falling, not just within the press and social media but also the financial markets. Proposing anything like Truss or Corbyn would probably be impossible now.
Ha
It was always thus. Because government is merely the largest of organisations. So if you propose to change anything, a horde of people will have their rice bowl broken.
Eliminate a report? - there’s a whole department that lives off that report. Feeds their children off it. Will retire from it.
Which is why, if Starmer, say, turns his eye on the pace at which we can approve the construction of homes, a horde of skeletons will pop out of the ground and attack him. Just like in Jason and the Argonauts.
Thatcher smashed a lot of rice bowls - some in surprising places. She changed *the culture* of the system.
The Tories need to enter the next election as the clear challengers, which means defeating Reform first.
In what world do the Tories not enter the next election as clear challengers?
I fear that in your hurry to give the Tories what you think of as bad advice you have strayed into an absurdity.
Reform want to surpass the Tories. In 2024 they were only a few percentage points behind. It would take much if Badenoch tanks. And even if she doesn’t with only 120 seats in FPTP it is folly to ignored Reform.
23.7 vs 14.3 is "only a few percentage points"?
And can you remind me of the current makeup of Reform's target seats?
So complacent. The SDP had zero % of the vote in 79 and nearly came second in 83. The Tories are more vulnerable than they have ever been. They lost Horsham and Chichester last time. Yet that is ignored. Weird.
You could try responding to the points you're quoting rather than deflecting. You might find it fun.
PMQs should be a bit more interesting . Badenoch is a bit of a mystery for most of the public and it will be interesting to see how she performs in her new role.
This is a good piece for anyone looking to understand a certain sort of Tory mindset right now, and well worth using the 12 foot ladder to read.
Did Bob Blackman really introduce her like that though? What a chump. If that had been how Labour or the LDs had introduced a new leader we would have rightly castigated them for it.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Do I have to wait until I'm a pensioner before the Tories do anything for me?
The leadership result is announced at 11am but I'm busy then, so I'll pick it up later.
Kemi should have it, but why do I have this lingering feeling of unease that Jenrick is going to spring a surprise?
Same here but I know why I have the feeling of unease.
It's a direct consequence of the feeling of unease I have that there is a large enough proportion of the Tory membership who are racist to tip the balance.
My suspicions were misplaced, I was wrong. Regardless of the quality or otherwise of the victor, I think it's a huge positive that the Troy membership has elected a black leader.
We don't need your Woke takes, thanks.
We've elected Kemi. Not a "black leader".
This shit is (thankfully) on its way out and you need to wise up to it.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Do I have to wait until I'm a pensioner before the Tories do anything for me?
It's amusing how he's complaining about taxes going up while complaining about spending being cut.
If the Tories were serious about cutting taxes, or not raising them, they'd have cut the winter fuel allowance themselves.
The Tories need to enter the next election as the clear challengers, which means defeating Reform first.
In what world do the Tories not enter the next election as clear challengers?
I fear that in your hurry to give the Tories what you think of as bad advice you have strayed into an absurdity.
Reform want to surpass the Tories. In 2024 they were only a few percentage points behind. It would take much if Badenoch tanks. And even if she doesn’t with only 120 seats in FPTP it is folly to ignored Reform.
23.7 vs 14.3 is "only a few percentage points"?
And can you remind me of the current makeup of Reform's target seats?
So complacent. The SDP had zero % of the vote in 79 and nearly came second in 83. The Tories are more vulnerable than they have ever been. They lost Horsham and Chichester last time. Yet that is ignored. Weird.
You could try responding to the points you're quoting rather than deflecting. You might find it fun.
Eh? The gap is less than 10%, which is mind blowing. The Reform seats are irrelevant, it’s the seats they denied the Tories (and might continue to deny the Tories) that matter. I would say that the Tories only won 120 seats might bother them strategically.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
If the right wing loon fails, replace her with an even bigger right wing loon.
Yes. That will work.
Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017, higher than Starmer, Brown or Ed Miliband or even Blair in 2005 got and a hung parliament by uniting the left behind him. Under FPTP or even PR not impossible a united right can win
"The Right" has already lost its left flank to the Lib Dems and in some cases even to Labour. Lurching further rightwards and any remaining One Nation types will be saying goodbye to the Tories too.
And as been said on here many, many times, not all ReFuk voters are Tories on a gap year. Many have never voted, and would never vote, Conservative.
And a good chunk of the rest voted Tory for the first time in 2019 and never will again.
PMQs should be a bit more interesting . Badenoch is a bit of a mystery for most of the public and it will be interesting to see how she performs in her new role.
This is a good piece for anyone looking to understand a certain sort of Tory mindset right now, and well worth using the 12 foot ladder to read.
Did Bob Blackman really introduce her like that though? What a chump. If that had been how Labour or the LDs had introduced a new leader we would have rightly castigated them for it.
Sorry, quote cockup! The above was meant in reply to this post:
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not and never have been a core Labour voter.
If I were to be polled now I'd say "don't know".
We need a psephological category for people who voted like you in 2024. How about "Starmer's Strivers"?
There seem to be quite a disparate group of us on PB.com who voted Labour for the first time, or at least the first time in a long time, at the GE. The only thing that seems to unite us is the belief that the Tory government had completely jumped the shark, and the country couldn't move on until they were ejected from office. So perhaps something like,
Starmer's Standards Stormtroopers
It's particularly striking given that Labour's poll share at the GE was surprisingly low, that there were so many of us lending our vote to them last time.
PB is desperately atypical I think. Most people know who they're going to vote for but often have difficulty getting to the polling booth ... PBers to a man (And woman) know we're going to vote and then decide who for.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Do I have to wait until I'm a pensioner before the Tories do anything for me?
If you are an employer hammered by Labour's NI tax rise, if an investor hammered by Labour's CGT rise, if a farmer hammered by Labour's IHT rise clearly not
May be, like Tennant, you “just wish [her] to shut up”?
Or dream of a world where you wake up and she “ doesn’t exist”?
(Snip)
The problem is that many anti-trans people don't want trans people to exist, deny they exist, and/or want to make it impossible for them to transition at any age.
Hence calling transmen "confused lesbians", or transwomen "men in skirts", and the attempts to stop trans people from using womens toilets.
That is definitely not Rowling's position. On her blog: "Again and again I’ve been told to ‘just meet some trans people.’ I have: in addition to a few younger people, who were all adorable, I happen to know a self-described transsexual woman who’s older than I am and wonderful. Although she’s open about her past as a gay man, I’ve always found it hard to think of her as anything other than a woman, and I believe (and certainly hope) she’s completely happy to have transitioned. Being older, though, she went through a long and rigorous process of evaluation, psychotherapy and staged transformation. The current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass. A man who intends to have no surgery and take no hormones may now secure himself a Gender Recognition Certificate and be a woman in the sight of the law." That's the issue. The vast majority of people are not anti-trans. They are supportive or just not interested. The problem lies with the very small minority of trans activists who are trying to coerce the rest of us to not only accept self identification (fair enough) but use the law to enforce the right of Self ID trans to have access to women's spaces.
I'm supportive of animal rights but not animal rights activists. I'm supportive of protection of the environment and action on climate change, but not of the extreme activists. The activists do more harm than good to their cause. Including trans activists. And yes I know about the suffragettes. I don't think the extremists helped their cause.
She also routinely misgenders people. If she meant what she said above, she wouldn't. It strikes me as being like a racist who knows and likes one black person, and therefore thinks it excuses racism towards others. "Of course I'm not racist; an old friend of mine is black."
I'm unsure that "The vast majority of people are not anti-trans." It'd be interesting to see figures on that.
Even the tweet mocking David Tennant today is a low blow.
One of Tennant's children is, IIRC, trans / gender non-conforming.
To use an analogy people on here might understand, Leon didn't just get the banhammer for casual racism, it was because he offended to the core people whose partners and children are non-white, by implying their loved ones had less value than 'white babies'. And that felt like a visceral, personal attack.
To some of us, trans people aren't just strange concepts that only exist in theory, they are our friends, family and loved ones. And when people make comments that seek to erase their existence, as Rowling frequently does, e.g. with the casual misgendering, it wounds to the very core.
Rowling's transphobia is out there in the open for all to see.
I don't want to get involved in a long, drawn out debate on the trans issue. But I do want to stand up for, and speak up for, the people I love.
David Tennant wasn't some rich lefty engaging in virtue signalling. He was a father standing up for his child's right to exist.
Nobody should be made to feel less valid as a human being because of the colour of their skin, their sexuality, or their gender identity. Rowling, sadly, has a great deal of form with the latter.
Thanks for this.
Being Trans seemed a peculiar theoretical to me, but a couple of years back a friend of Fox jr2 who he has known since they were in Beavers together, and still flatshare came out as Trans and now uses female pronouns. She has not yet had either hormonal or surgical treatment, mostly because of difficulties accessing gender affirming treatment. Fox jr2 reckons coming out as Trans has saved her life.
They are the same kind, generous person that I have known for years, and deserve kindness and generosity of spirit as they set out on what is clearly going to be a life where people are prejudiced against her and consider her a threat.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Do I have to wait until I'm a pensioner before the Tories do anything for me?
That depends how old you are. They might have shut down your Sure Start centre when you were a toddler. Or trebled your tuition fees when you went to university. Or even increased the time you had to wait for NHS treatment from a few weeks to many months.
Thank goodness they aren't in a position to do anything else for you.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Do I have to wait until I'm a pensioner before the Tories do anything for me?
If you are an employer hammered by Labour's NI tax rise, if an investor hammered by Labour's CGT rise, if a farmer hammered by Labour's IHT rise clearly not
You speak as if the Tories weren't raising taxes themselves.
And since you object to cutting unnecessary expenditure on things like the WFA, you've learnt no lessons yet.
The only way to cut taxes is to cut expenditure. On your own core voters as well as everyone else.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
We don't need his vote at the moment, we could form a government with won back Reform voters or in coalition with Reform even if Bart stayed voting Labour
You really are a blue Corbynite.
Chase after Farage and his bunch of racists, nuts and loons and I won't be the only ex Tory voting Labour to keep you and him out of office.
While not all Reform voters are racist it seems a fair number are the "Tommy Robinson Tendency". It was notable that the Reform polling noticably ticked up when Sunak became leader. I suspect that Kemi won't win over those voters, but I think that a good thing for the Conservative Party.
I shall be interested who she brings onto the Front Bench that she installs. I don't believe in "The Blob" in the sense of an inertia riddled Civil Service, but I think it does exist in the wider sense. Even the most modest of changes to welfare entitlements or to tax policy involving a mere 3.5% change in UK tax revenue creates a furore as if the sky is falling, not just within the press and social media but also the financial markets. Proposing anything like Truss or Corbyn would probably be impossible now.
Ha
It was always thus. Because government is merely the largest of organisations. So if you propose to change anything, a horde of people will have their rice bowl broken.
Eliminate a report? - there’s a whole department that lives off that report. Feeds their children off it. Will retire from it.
Which is why, if Starmer, say, turns his eye on the pace at which we can approve the construction of homes, a horde of skeletons will pop out of the ground and attack him. Just like in Jason and the Argonauts.
Thatcher smashed a lot of rice bowls - some in surprising places. She changed *the culture* of the system.
She also smashed rice bowls such as s culture of artistic and intellectual TV broadcasting, though.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
If the right wing loon fails, replace her with an even bigger right wing loon.
Yes. That will work.
Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017, higher than Starmer, Brown or Ed Miliband or even Blair in 2005 got and a hung parliament by uniting the left behind him. Under FPTP or even PR not impossible a united right can win
"The Right" has already lost its left flank to the Lib Dems and in some cases even to Labour. Lurching further rightwards and any remaining One Nation types will be saying goodbye to the Tories too.
And as been said on here many, many times, not all ReFuk voters are Tories on a gap year. Many have never voted, and would never vote, Conservative.
On the BMG Poll last week Conservatives + Reform on 46% combined are even bigger still than Labour + LDs on 41% combined.
The vast majority of Reform voters would vote Tory over Labour or LD on a forced choice, the vast majority of 2024 Tories would vote Reform over Labour too even if a few voted LD over Reform
Anyway, whatever happened to politics as showbusiness for ugly people. Kemi is clearly the best looking Tory leader of my lifetime. And probably, to be even-handed, ditto SKS, Labour.
The leadership result is announced at 11am but I'm busy then, so I'll pick it up later.
Kemi should have it, but why do I have this lingering feeling of unease that Jenrick is going to spring a surprise?
Same here but I know why I have the feeling of unease.
It's a direct consequence of the feeling of unease I have that there is a large enough proportion of the Tory membership who are racist to tip the balance.
My suspicions were misplaced, I was wrong. Regardless of the quality or otherwise of the victor, I think it's a huge positive that the Troy membership has elected a black leader.
We don't need your Woke takes, thanks.
We've elected Kemi. Not a "black leader".
This shit is (thankfully) on its way out and you need to wise up to it.
That is indeed my point, if only you'd care to read my post properly.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Wending my way back to Devon after a week in Turkmenistan and then a week in Abu Dhabi.
Glad Kemi won. A lot of work to do to rise to the job. But I wish her the best in the role, for as long as she holds it. (Implying nothing other than she might upgrade her job to PM.)
Still startling that 40% of the party couldn't see Jenrick for the sleazeball slimebag he clearly is.
You have picked a tremendous leader, I suspect she will surprise on the upside, particularly bearing in mind how vile the alternative would have been.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
What a stupid comment
Time for you to get a cuppa and a rich tea biscuit
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
"I have always voted Conservative"
Except for when you voted Plaid Cymru to negate your Conservative vote.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not and never have been a core Labour voter.
If I were to be polled now I'd say "don't know".
We need a psephological category for people who voted like you in 2024. How about "Starmer's Strivers"?
There seem to be quite a disparate group of us on PB.com who voted Labour for the first time, or at least the first time in a long time, at the GE. The only thing that seems to unite us is the belief that the Tory government had completely jumped the shark, and the country couldn't move on until they were ejected from office. So perhaps something like,
Starmer's Standards Stormtroopers
It's particularly striking given that Labour's poll share at the GE was surprisingly low, that there were so many of us lending our vote to them last time.
Last election was about kicking the tories in their face.
It may well be the next election is about kicking labour in the face. Certainly my hope when doing the former was I'd subsequently be doing the latter.
The leadership result is announced at 11am but I'm busy then, so I'll pick it up later.
Kemi should have it, but why do I have this lingering feeling of unease that Jenrick is going to spring a surprise?
Same here but I know why I have the feeling of unease.
It's a direct consequence of the feeling of unease I have that there is a large enough proportion of the Tory membership who are racist to tip the balance.
My suspicions were misplaced, I was wrong. Regardless of the quality or otherwise of the victor, I think it's a huge positive that the Troy membership has elected a black leader.
This shit is (thankfully) on its way out and you need to wise up to it.
That's no way to refer to Rishi! I thought he was a decent guy put into an impossible position by Johnson and Truss!
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
Given a forced choice between Farage and Kemi almost all Reform voters would vote Farage, though she might be able to squeeze a few in seats Labour one last time where the Tories were second.
Bart is a whinging narcissist who expects the Tories do do everything he demands or he throws his toys out the pram!
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
Given a forced choice between Farage and Kemi almost all Reform voters would vote Farage, though she might be able to squeeze a few in seats Labour one last time where the Tories were second.
Bart is a whinging narcissist who expects the Tories do do everything he demands or he throws his toys out the pram!
Again - you are not a good advert for the conservative party but thankfully you seem to be fairly unique
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
On Badenoch. I've just read the 40-page Conservatism in Crisis essay linked to earlier. Based on its content, I'd argue that Badenoch is significantly to the right of current mainstream Tories (even of Jenrick, if one excludes his stuff on immigration). She could be a formidable opponent for Labour. The focus on the rise of the 'bureaucratic class' will be popular with those on here who bemoan the Blob or the NU10K or whatever.
Much of the analysis is contentious, and there's little in the way of practical solutions yet. To give two examples. Firstly, it does, implicitly if not explicitly, seem to want to roll back many of the progressive (and consensual) measures of the last 60 years - indeed, it provides a voluminous list of such measures, slightly disapprovingly - for example, changes to family life and the role of women/feminism. Secondly, to destroy the 'bureaucratic class' entails reducing the role of the state significantly, but there's little to no indication of how this would be done.
As a side note, she/it (the essay) argues strongly that the bureaucratic class and the left disapprove of the 'nation state' and seek to undermine it. I see no evidence of this from Starmer or others.
Nevertheless, as a leftie I think she will be a much more formidable opponent than Jenrick or her recent predecessors. Whether she can formulate a coherent set of policies from her diagnosis of our current ills remains to be seen.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
HY will come around, he always does.
He wasn't that tonked, Jenrick still got a higher percentage of members votes than any losing Tory leadership candidate before
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
HY will come around, he always does.
Certainly he seems to be having an adverse reaction and I am not sure he will come round - time will tell
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
"I have always voted Conservative"
Except for when you voted Plaid Cymru to negate your Conservative vote.
I voted for every Tory candidate on that ballot paper, just there were only 4 Tory candidates in a Town council election for 6 seats and Plaid were the only other party standing so as I use every vote I have on principle I used my last 2 for them
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
If the right wing loon fails, replace her with an even bigger right wing loon.
Yes. That will work.
Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017, higher than Starmer, Brown or Ed Miliband or even Blair in 2005 got and a hung parliament by uniting the left behind him. Under FPTP or even PR not impossible a united right can win
"The Right" has already lost its left flank to the Lib Dems and in some cases even to Labour. Lurching further rightwards and any remaining One Nation types will be saying goodbye to the Tories too.
And as been said on here many, many times, not all ReFuk voters are Tories on a gap year. Many have never voted, and would never vote, Conservative.
On the BMG Poll last week Conservatives + Reform on 46% combined are even bigger still than Labour + LDs on 41% combined.
The vast majority of Reform voters would vote Tory over Labour or LD on a forced choice, the vast majority of 2024 Tories would vote Reform over Labour too even if a few voted LD over Reform
1. Taking that nonsensical approach, you should add Green, SNP, PC, Workers Party, TUSC and pro-Palastine Independents to our side. But you can have Tommy Robinson and his mates.
2. There isn't a forced choice. That would require us to use a system such as AV.
Anyway, whatever happened to politics as showbusiness for ugly people. Kemi is clearly the best looking Tory leader of my lifetime. And probably, to be even-handed, ditto SKS, Labour.
I'm sorry Cookie, whatever floats your boat. Starmer does nothing for me, he's all yours!
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
I suspect @HYUFD is in deep morning at the result, as he sees the right defeated and prospect of his desire for Johnson or JRM to lead the party disappear
For now, remember Badenoch beat Jenrick by slightly less than Truss beat Sunak.
If she fails Jenrich or Rees Mogg will be waiting in the wings to replace her as leader.
However Kemi has a mandate and I will support her as leader until the next general election as we need to get rid of this awful Labour government above all else
If the right wing loon fails, replace her with an even bigger right wing loon.
Yes. That will work.
Corbyn got 40% of the vote in 2017, higher than Starmer, Brown or Ed Miliband or even Blair in 2005 got and a hung parliament by uniting the left behind him. Under FPTP or even PR not impossible a united right can win
"The Right" has already lost its left flank to the Lib Dems and in some cases even to Labour. Lurching further rightwards and any remaining One Nation types will be saying goodbye to the Tories too.
And as been said on here many, many times, not all ReFuk voters are Tories on a gap year. Many have never voted, and would never vote, Conservative.
On the BMG Poll last week Conservatives + Reform on 46% combined are even bigger still than Labour + LDs on 41% combined.
The vast majority of Reform voters would vote Tory over Labour or LD on a forced choice, the vast majority of 2024 Tories would vote Reform over Labour too even if a few voted LD over Reform
1. Taking that nonsensical approach, you should add Green, SNP, PC, Workers Party, TUSC and pro-Palastine Independents to our side. But you can have Tommy Robinson and his mates.
2. There isn't a forced choice. That would require us to use a system such as AV.
If you think the Workers Party and TUSC and pro Palestine Independents would touch Starmer with a bargepole at the moment I have a bridge to sell you.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
HY will come around, he always does.
He wasn't that tonked, Jenrick still got a higher percentage of members votes than any losing Tory leadership candidate before
Calm down dear!
I did caveat my post, although when 52 plays 48 is claimed to be a comprehensive victory, in my book Jenrick was mullered.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
HY will come around, he always does.
He wasn't that tonked, Jenrick still got a higher percentage of members votes than any losing Tory leadership candidate before
It is academic - Kemi won and Jenrick lost - you need to accept it
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
Given a forced choice between Farage and Kemi almost all Reform voters would vote Farage, though she might be able to squeeze a few in seats Labour one last time where the Tories were second.
Bart is a whinging narcissist who expects the Tories do do everything he demands or he throws his toys out the pram!
Don't be absurd, no party has ever done everything I demand and none ever will.
But I will vote for my beliefs over my party. Unashamedly so too, anyone who votes party over principles does not have any of the latter.
I believe in low taxes but to have low taxes you need to cut expenditure. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories were the best party for that. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories did many things I opposed but I happily voted for them as the best option available.
Unfortunately now all unnecessary expenditure is going on your core vote and in recent years your party, my ex party, has decided to protect its core vote over cutting expenditure and thus taxes.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
HY will come around, he always does.
He wasn't that tonked, Jenrick still got a higher percentage of members votes than any losing Tory leadership candidate before
That's because the last two losers were perceived as more centrist. And the swivel eyed membership couldn't vote for someone of that persuasion to be their leader.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not and never have been a core Labour voter.
If I were to be polled now I'd say "don't know".
We need a psephological category for people who voted like you in 2024. How about "Starmer's Strivers"?
There seem to be quite a disparate group of us on PB.com who voted Labour for the first time, or at least the first time in a long time, at the GE. The only thing that seems to unite us is the belief that the Tory government had completely jumped the shark, and the country couldn't move on until they were ejected from office. So perhaps something like,
Starmer's Standards Stormtroopers
It's particularly striking given that Labour's poll share at the GE was surprisingly low, that there were so many of us lending our vote to them last time.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
"I have always voted Conservative"
Except for when you voted Plaid Cymru to negate your Conservative vote.
I voted for every Tory candidate on that ballot paper, just there were only 4 Tory candidates in a Town council election for 6 seats and Plaid were the only other party standing so as I use every vote I have on principle I used my last 2 for them
Isn't voting for another party grounds for expulsion from the Conservatives? It is with Labour. (If you get found out.)
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
The equivalent Universal Credit allowance for someone with no kids and no housing costs is £4,720 per annum. You don't get it at all if you have savings over £16,000, and anything over £6,000 is tapered away.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
Given a forced choice between Farage and Kemi almost all Reform voters would vote Farage, though she might be able to squeeze a few in seats Labour one last time where the Tories were second.
Bart is a whinging narcissist who expects the Tories do do everything he demands or he throws his toys out the pram!
Don't be absurd, no party has ever done everything I demand and none ever will.
But I will vote for my beliefs over my party. Unashamedly so too, anyone who votes party over principles does not have any of the latter.
I believe in low taxes but to have low taxes you need to cut expenditure. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories were the best party for that. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories did many things I opposed but I happily voted for them as the best option available.
Unfortunately now all unnecessary expenditure is going on your core vote and in recent years your party, my ex party, has decided to protect its core vote over cutting expenditure and thus taxes.
Well I'm not voting for that.
I genuinely hope Kemi will change the narrative from the core pensioner vote, and address the younger vote including housing and show a pathway to lower taxes on people and businesses to get the real growth the country needs
She is only 44 herself which is considerably younger than my three children
The Tories need to enter the next election as the clear challengers, which means defeating Reform first.
In what world do the Tories not enter the next election as clear challengers?
I fear that in your hurry to give the Tories what you think of as bad advice you have strayed into an absurdity.
Reform want to surpass the Tories. In 2024 they were only a few percentage points behind. It would take much if Badenoch tanks. And even if she doesn’t with only 120 seats in FPTP it is folly to ignored Reform.
23.7 vs 14.3 is "only a few percentage points"?
And can you remind me of the current makeup of Reform's target seats?
So complacent. The SDP had zero % of the vote in 79 and nearly came second in 83. The Tories are more vulnerable than they have ever been. They lost Horsham and Chichester last time. Yet that is ignored. Weird.
You could try responding to the points you're quoting rather than deflecting. You might find it fun.
Eh? The gap is less than 10%, which is mind blowing. The Reform seats are irrelevant, it’s the seats they denied the Tories (and might continue to deny the Tories) that matter. I would say that the Tories only won 120 seats might bother them strategically.
On Badenoch. I've just read the 40-page Conservatism in Crisis essay linked to earlier. Based on its content, I'd argue that Badenoch is significantly to the right of current mainstream Tories (even of Jenrick, if one excludes his stuff on immigration). She could be a formidable opponent for Labour. The focus on the rise of the 'bureaucratic class' will be popular with those on here who bemoan the Blob or the NU10K or whatever.
Much of the analysis is contentious, and there's little in the way of practical solutions yet. To give two examples. Firstly, it does, implicitly if not explicitly, seem to want to roll back many of the progressive (and consensual) measures of the last 60 years - indeed, it provides a voluminous list of such measures, slightly disapprovingly - for example, changes to family life and the role of women/feminism. Secondly, to destroy the 'bureaucratic class' entails reducing the role of the state significantly, but there's little to no indication of how this would be done.
As a side note, she/it (the essay) argues strongly that the bureaucratic class and the left disapprove of the 'nation state' and seek to undermine it. I see no evidence of this from Starmer or others.
Nevertheless, as a leftie I think she will be a much more formidable opponent than Jenrick or her recent predecessors. Whether she can formulate a coherent set of policies from her diagnosis of our current ills remains to be seen.
I think there is a possible political space for a low tax small government party, though tough spending cuts would have to include state pensions and the NHS to balance the books. That might play well in Tufton St, but unlikely to do so in core Tory voter demographics. Just look at the extreme reaction to cutting WFP for an example.
It might even be a package that could appeal to sound money centrists like me, though I would also expect small government to include butting out of the lives of Trans people etc, in the words of Coach Walz "mind your own damn business".
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
UC single person allowance is £4.4k pa.
UC single person looking after two children = £10.2k pa. That's three people living off just over £10k
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
Given a forced choice between Farage and Kemi almost all Reform voters would vote Farage, though she might be able to squeeze a few in seats Labour one last time where the Tories were second.
Bart is a whinging narcissist who expects the Tories do do everything he demands or he throws his toys out the pram!
Don't be absurd, no party has ever done everything I demand and none ever will.
But I will vote for my beliefs over my party. Unashamedly so too, anyone who votes party over principles does not have any of the latter.
I believe in low taxes but to have low taxes you need to cut expenditure. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories were the best party for that. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories did many things I opposed but I happily voted for them as the best option available.
Unfortunately now all unnecessary expenditure is going on your core vote and in recent years your party, my ex party, has decided to protect its core vote over cutting expenditure and thus taxes.
Well I'm not voting for that.
I genuinely hope Kemi will change the narrative from the core pensioner vote, and address the younger vote including housing and show a pathway to lower taxes on people and businesses to get the real growth the country needs
She is only 44 herself which is considerably younger than my three children
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
UC single person allowance is £4.4k pa.
UC single person looking after two children = £10.2k pa. That's three people living off just over £10k
Child benefit is also £26 a week and the vast majority of children will be less at risk of pneumonia regardless of parental income than an 80 or 90 year old on £13k a year with no winter fuel allowance now
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
UC single person allowance is £4.4k pa.
UC single person looking after two children = £10.2k pa. That's three people living off just over £10k
Child benefit is also £26 a week and the vast majority of children will be less at risk of pneumonia regardless of parental income than an 80 or 90 year old on £13k a year with no winter fuel allowance now
Infants under one are at a higher risk of pneumonia than adults of any age.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
"I have always voted Conservative"
Except for when you voted Plaid Cymru to negate your Conservative vote.
I voted for every Tory candidate on that ballot paper, just there were only 4 Tory candidates in a Town council election for 6 seats and Plaid were the only other party standing so as I use every vote I have on principle I used my last 2 for them
Isn't voting for another party grounds for expulsion from the Conservatives? It is with Labour. (If you get found out.)
No otherwise you would have to have expelled half the Tory membership who voted for Farage in European Parliament elections (and of course I voted for all Tory candidates in that election anyway).
Campaigning or open support for another party ahead of the Tory party is but that is not the same.
Ironically of course Bart also voted for Farage in the 2019 European elections while I still voted for May's Tories making his current attacks on me as a so called far rightwinger particularly repulsive
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
UC single person allowance is £4.4k pa.
UC single person looking after two children = £10.2k pa. That's three people living off just over £10k
Child benefit is also £26 a week and the vast majority of children will be less at risk of pneumonia regardless of parental income than an 80 or 90 year old on £13k a year with no winter fuel allowance now
Infants under one are at a higher risk of pneumonia than adults of any age.
All pensioners get an annual flu jab and the poorest pensioners will receive the WFP
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
Given a forced choice between Farage and Kemi almost all Reform voters would vote Farage, though she might be able to squeeze a few in seats Labour one last time where the Tories were second.
Bart is a whinging narcissist who expects the Tories do do everything he demands or he throws his toys out the pram!
You don't need to be looking at the racist underbelly for your win. Farage will out-fash Jenrick 8 days a week.
You need to be attracting people like me to your party. Well, not me, but people like me. I am unlikely to ever vote Conservative granted, but I can assure you I will never ever vote for Farage, Jenrick or your hero Johnson to be Prime Minister.
Your party has had a good day today. You should accept that and move forward.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
Just stop it will you
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
No I won't join Reform, I have always voted Conservative and to re elect Tory PMs and their governments at every general election since 18 unlike you and Bart.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
I am quietly confident Kemi will win back some Reform voters,,but as important she needs to win back former conservatives voters like @BartholomewRoberts and others who you seem to want to judge and put off
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
I detect that HY is a little emotional after his guy got well and truly tonked! (Although not as well and truly tonked as he deserved).
HY will come around, he always does.
He wasn't that tonked, Jenrick still got a higher percentage of members votes than any losing Tory leadership candidate before
That's because the last two losers were perceived as more centrist. And the swivel eyed membership couldn't vote for someone of that persuasion to be their leader.
They voted for centrist Cameron to be leader in 2005
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
UC single person allowance is £4.4k pa.
UC single person looking after two children = £10.2k pa. That's three people living off just over £10k
Child benefit is also £26 a week and the vast majority of children will be less at risk of pneumonia regardless of parental income than an 80 or 90 year old on £13k a year with no winter fuel allowance now
Infants under one are at a higher risk of pneumonia than adults of any age.
All pensioners get an annual flu jab and the poorest pensioners will receive the WFP
Quite reasonable that. No objections to that.
Children get vaccines too. Quite reasonable too.
Nobody should be denied what is needed, particularly vaccines, but spending money on people purely because they are "core vote" is no way to spend taxpayers money.
Labour’s support in Scotland has plunged in the wake of Rachel Reeves’s budget, which voters believe will hit them in their pockets and damage the country, a new poll has found.
Backing for Anas Sarwar’s party has dropped to such an extent that it would be virtually impossible for him to form a Scottish government if the results were replicated at the Holyrood 2026 election.
The poll by Norstat, the first conducted in Scotland since the chancellor unveiled her tax and spending plans, suggested that while voters felt warmly about the budget’s main policies, they felt that they would lose out overall.
The research put support for Labour in Scottish parliamentary constituencies at 23 per cent, a drop of seven points since the last survey in August and the lowest since Nicola Sturgeon quit as first minister last March. Backing for Scottish Labour on the more proportional regional list fell by six points to 22 per cent.
Analysis by Sir John Curtice, the polling expert and professor of politics at the University of Strathclyde, found this would leave Labour with 29 MSPs, an increase of seven on its current level.
The SNP has failed to capitalise on Labour’s woes — remaining unchanged on 33 per cent for constituency votes and increasing backing by only one point to 29 per cent on the regional list — but its projected return of 51 MSPs would almost certainly see John Swinney remain first minister despite losing 13 seats compared with the 2021 election.
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
Don't be pathetic.
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Even the minimum wage is higher than £13k a year now
UC single person allowance is £4.4k pa.
UC single person looking after two children = £10.2k pa. That's three people living off just over £10k
Child benefit is also £26 a week and the vast majority of children will be less at risk of pneumonia regardless of parental income than an 80 or 90 year old on £13k a year with no winter fuel allowance now
Infants under one are at a higher risk of pneumonia than adults of any age.
All pensioners get an annual flu jab and the poorest pensioners will receive the WFP
Quite reasonable that. No objections to that.
Children get vaccines too. Quite reasonable too.
Nobody should be denied what is needed, particularly vaccines, but spending money on people purely because they are "core vote" is no way to spend taxpayers money.
Children won’t be getting vaccines in the US if Trump wins - RFK believes vaccines cause autism
On Badenoch. I've just read the 40-page Conservatism in Crisis essay linked to earlier. Based on its content, I'd argue that Badenoch is significantly to the right of current mainstream Tories (even of Jenrick, if one excludes his stuff on immigration). She could be a formidable opponent for Labour. The focus on the rise of the 'bureaucratic class' will be popular with those on here who bemoan the Blob or the NU10K or whatever.
Much of the analysis is contentious, and there's little in the way of practical solutions yet. To give two examples. Firstly, it does, implicitly if not explicitly, seem to want to roll back many of the progressive (and consensual) measures of the last 60 years - indeed, it provides a voluminous list of such measures, slightly disapprovingly - for example, changes to family life and the role of women/feminism. Secondly, to destroy the 'bureaucratic class' entails reducing the role of the state significantly, but there's little to no indication of how this would be done.
As a side note, she/it (the essay) argues strongly that the bureaucratic class and the left disapprove of the 'nation state' and seek to undermine it. I see no evidence of this from Starmer or others.
Nevertheless, as a leftie I think she will be a much more formidable opponent than Jenrick or her recent predecessors. Whether she can formulate a coherent set of policies from her diagnosis of our current ills remains to be seen.
How does this compare with National Conservative ideas?
While I agree with those saying that Kemi's race and sex are irrelevant; we just wanted the best potential leader
I also think it's good that we can set an example in showing that race and sex don't matter
And it's good because it'll make some Lab MPs squirm
As I alluded in the postscript I also expect some on the non Tory right to expose themselves as idiots because of Badenoch's race and background.
I've experienced this first hand because I'm either superficially brown or an invader.
People who prejudge others by their skin colour or their name should have no place in the Conservative Party
Religion is trickier
If someone tells me that they're Christian and that God is good, then they should probably be allowed in the Conservative Party, but I would prejudge them
I think Badenoch will survive, she is the only Conservative leader this century to have won most votes from Tory MPs and Tory members other than Cameron and Johnson.
Given how awful and unpopular this Labour government already is she will also find it much easier to capitalise on that and gain poll leads than Hague did in 1997. I think she will at least keep 2024 Tories and hope Reform eats further into working class Labour votes without getting too close to her. However Jenrick would have been better to appeal to Reform voters, Tugendhat to LD voters and Cleverly to Labour voters so I don't expect to see a surge in Tory support in polls this month
Jenrick is perfectly at liberty to join Reform as are those who seem to think he is the bees knees
The one thing is certain the polls would not have improved if Jenrick had won with his far right agenda
Forget Reform and concentrate on giving Kemi your full backing and watch how she takes on labour, that is where the next election is won or lost
Don’t the Tories need to defeat Reform first to challenge Labour, much as Labour needed to defeat the SDP.
First past the post is cruel. ..
QTWAIN.
The Tories need to defeat Labour and the Lib Dems.
Labour losing its extremists to the Greens, Hamas Independents etc helped them win a landslide majority.
I’m not so sure. You’re obviously fishing in the same pool. I’m not sure the Lib Dena are a rich seam, they’ll be perfectly positioned next time to keep the buggers out.
Every ex Tory like myself who voted Labour or Lib Dem this year* is worth 2 ex Tory to Reform votes if won back.
* Personally I voted Lib Dem in the Council elections and Labour in the GE.
So you were one of the 33% at the GE, now down to 28% of core Labour voters given the Tories are now 1% ahead in the latest poll
I'm not really sure why you think making snide comments like this to someone whose vote your party needs is at all helpful to your cause?
HYUFD has long made it clear that as a Conservative liberal he actively doesn't want my vote.
He'd rather the Tories lose as a purely conservative party to 19th century Tory ideals than win by appealing to right wing liberals as the party has striven to do throughout the 20th and 21st centuries.
I know right wing liberals, you are no right wing liberal. A right wing liberal I could just about understand voting LD or for Blair in the noughties, no right wing liberal would have voted for Labour in July and Starmer and Reeves and their statist, high tax near socialist budget last week
I didn't vote for, and opposed, the tax rising budget last week.
Just as I opposed the tax rising budgets in the last few years by the Conservatives.
Unfortunately with your party preventing enough homes from being built, a policy you personally vehemently champion, Starmer's party was the least worst option this year.
You are just as anti business and high tax as Starmer. Until you stop supporting planning restrictions, the triple lock, blowing money on things like the winter fuel allowance etc there is no difference between them and you in being high tax.
It was of course Jenrick most vehemently pushing new homes.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
The fact you want to pamper your "core vote" with taxpayers money for no good reason other than they vote for you confirms you're not fit for office.
The fact you want pensioners on £13 k a year to die of pneumonia this year confirms we don't need nor want your vote
What a stupid comment
Time for you to get a cuppa and a rich tea biscuit
Whatever you do don't give him one of those revolutionary republican Garibaldi biscuits.
Comments
Starmer's Standards Stormtroopers
It's particularly striking given that Labour's poll share at the GE was surprisingly low, that there were so many of us lending our vote to them last time.
Tim Stanley - ‘Mummy won and I’m very happy’ – she’ll give this country the kick up the backside it needs
You don't get to add different parties votes together.
He's the father of a trans child.
He's immensely protective of them.
I shall be interested who she brings onto the Front Bench that she installs. I don't believe in "The Blob" in the sense of an inertia riddled Civil Service, but I think it does exist in the wider sense. Even the most modest of changes to welfare entitlements or to tax policy involving a mere 3.5% change in UK tax revenue creates a furore as if the sky is falling, not just within the press and social media but also the financial markets. Proposing anything like Truss or Corbyn would probably be impossible now.
My suspicions were misplaced, I was wrong. Regardless of the quality or otherwise of the victor, I think it's a huge positive that the Troy membership has elected a black leader.
The fact you want to throw our core vote pensioners on the scrap heap by scrapping the winter fuel allowance and triple fuel allowance confirms we are much better off at the moment without you.
In government the Tories at least kept winter fuel allowance and didn't raise NI on employers or CGT or hammer farmers as Labour has
And as been said on here many, many times, not all ReFuk voters are Tories on a gap year. Many have never voted, and would never vote, Conservative.
It was always thus. Because government is merely the largest of organisations. So if you propose to change anything, a horde of people will have their rice bowl broken.
Eliminate a report? - there’s a whole department that lives off that report. Feeds their children off it. Will retire from it.
Which is why, if Starmer, say, turns his eye on the pace at which we can approve the construction of homes, a horde of skeletons will pop out of the ground and attack him. Just like in Jason and the Argonauts.
Thatcher smashed a lot of rice bowls - some in surprising places. She changed *the culture* of the system.
Josh Fenton-Glynn MP @JoshFG
Do Labour MPs now have to declare this as a gift?
https://x.com/JoshFG/status/1852690130554806405
Did Bob Blackman really introduce her like that though? What a chump. If that had been how Labour or the LDs had introduced a new leader we would have rightly castigated them for it.
We've elected Kemi. Not a "black leader".
This shit is (thankfully) on its way out and you need to wise up to it.
Many would say the party would be better without you
Join Reform
If the Tories were serious about cutting taxes, or not raising them, they'd have cut the winter fuel allowance themselves.
However it is also clear we cannot get a Conservative majority again without winning back some former Conservative voters now voting Reform. Otherwise at best the Tories could get a hung parliament and would have to form a government with Reform support or less likely now the LDs again
PBers to a man (And woman) know we're going to vote and then decide who for.
Chance of winning
Trump 50.4%
Harris 49.4%
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/
Being Trans seemed a peculiar theoretical to me, but a couple of years back a friend of Fox jr2 who he has known since they were in Beavers together, and still flatshare came out as Trans and now uses female pronouns. She has not yet had either hormonal or surgical treatment, mostly because of difficulties accessing gender affirming treatment. Fox jr2 reckons coming out as Trans has saved her life.
They are the same kind, generous person that I have known for years, and deserve kindness and generosity of spirit as they set out on what is clearly going to be a life where people are prejudiced against her and consider her a threat.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/11/02/labour-mp-shares-post-badenoch-blackface-white-supremacy/
Thank goodness they aren't in a position to do anything else for you.
And since you object to cutting unnecessary expenditure on things like the WFA, you've learnt no lessons yet.
The only way to cut taxes is to cut expenditure. On your own core voters as well as everyone else.
Ever the chemist rather than the philosopher.
You are not a good advert for the party sadly
The vast majority of Reform voters would vote Tory over Labour or LD on a forced choice, the vast majority of 2024 Tories would vote Reform over Labour too even if a few voted LD over Reform
I don't want anyone on 13k a year, pensioner or baby or anyone else, to die from pneumonia.
The most vulnerable to pneumonia are not the elderly, it's those under 1 year old. Yet they're not entitled to the WFA. Odd that isn't it?
Waiter in Indian restaurant
Server in McDonald's
I don't know what Starmer or Corbyn did for their first jobs
Time for you to get a cuppa and a rich tea biscuit
Except for when you voted Plaid Cymru to negate your Conservative vote.
It may well be the next election is about kicking labour in the face. Certainly my hope when doing the former was I'd subsequently be doing the latter.
Bart is a whinging narcissist who expects the Tories do do everything he demands or he throws his toys out the pram!
HY will come around, he always does.
Much of the analysis is contentious, and there's little in the way of practical solutions yet. To give two examples. Firstly, it does, implicitly if not explicitly, seem to want to roll back many of the progressive (and consensual) measures of the last 60 years - indeed, it provides a voluminous list of such measures, slightly disapprovingly - for example, changes to family life and the role of women/feminism. Secondly, to destroy the 'bureaucratic class' entails reducing the role of the state significantly, but there's little to no indication of how this would be done.
As a side note, she/it (the essay) argues strongly that the bureaucratic class and the left disapprove of the 'nation state' and seek to undermine it. I see no evidence of this from Starmer or others.
Nevertheless, as a leftie I think she will be a much more formidable opponent than Jenrick or her recent predecessors. Whether she can formulate a coherent set of policies from her diagnosis of our current ills remains to be seen.
2. There isn't a forced choice. That would require us to use a system such as AV.
Kemi on the other hand is a fine looking lady.
I did caveat my post, although when 52 plays 48 is claimed to be a comprehensive victory, in my book Jenrick was mullered.
But I will vote for my beliefs over my party. Unashamedly so too, anyone who votes party over principles does not have any of the latter.
I believe in low taxes but to have low taxes you need to cut expenditure. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories were the best party for that. Under Cameron and Osborne the Tories did many things I opposed but I happily voted for them as the best option available.
Unfortunately now all unnecessary expenditure is going on your core vote and in recent years your party, my ex party, has decided to protect its core vote over cutting expenditure and thus taxes.
Well I'm not voting for that.
Twats gonna Twatter.
https://youtu.be/d3Mrfut-FSw?si=9ow3m43ddCJuTZg4
She is only 44 herself which is considerably younger than my three children
At the Tories' lowest ebb.
It might even be a package that could appeal to sound money centrists like me, though I would also expect small government to include butting out of the lives of Trans people etc, in the words of Coach Walz "mind your own damn business".
UC single person looking after two children = £10.2k pa. That's three people living off just over £10k
If she does, she'll get my vote back.
I also think it's good that we can set an example in showing that race and sex don't matter
And it's good because it'll make some Lab MPs squirm
Campaigning or open support for another party ahead of the Tory party is but that is not the same.
Ironically of course Bart also voted for Farage in the 2019 European elections while I still voted for May's Tories making his current attacks on me as a so called far rightwinger particularly repulsive
I've experienced this first hand because I'm either superficially brown or an invader.
You need to be attracting people like me to your party. Well, not me, but people like me. I am unlikely to ever vote Conservative granted, but I can assure you I will never ever vote for Farage, Jenrick or your hero Johnson to be Prime Minister.
Your party has had a good day today. You should accept that and move forward.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/23/keir-starmer-caught-illegally-selling-ice-creams-french-riviera?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
Corbyns first job was a local newspaper reporter, then a VSO worker in Jamaica, doing youth work and teaching geography.
Children get vaccines too. Quite reasonable too.
Nobody should be denied what is needed, particularly vaccines, but spending money on people purely because they are "core vote" is no way to spend taxpayers money.
That would mean Lando in starting first and Max in last place
Backing for Anas Sarwar’s party has dropped to such an extent that it would be virtually impossible for him to form a Scottish government if the results were replicated at the Holyrood 2026 election.
The poll by Norstat, the first conducted in Scotland since the chancellor unveiled her tax and spending plans, suggested that while voters felt warmly about the budget’s main policies, they felt that they would lose out overall.
The research put support for Labour in Scottish parliamentary constituencies at 23 per cent, a drop of seven points since the last survey in August and the lowest since Nicola Sturgeon quit as first minister last March. Backing for Scottish Labour on the more proportional regional list fell by six points to 22 per cent.
Analysis by Sir John Curtice, the polling expert and professor of politics at the University of Strathclyde, found this would leave Labour with 29 MSPs, an increase of seven on its current level.
The SNP has failed to capitalise on Labour’s woes — remaining unchanged on 33 per cent for constituency votes and increasing backing by only one point to 29 per cent on the regional list — but its projected return of 51 MSPs would almost certainly see John Swinney remain first minister despite losing 13 seats compared with the 2021 election.
https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/scottish-labour-popularity-poll-rachel-reeves-budget-2024-5jmhqwjkr
?
I think I might damage a rib laughing if that happens.
Religion is trickier
If someone tells me that they're Christian and that God is good, then they should probably be allowed in the Conservative Party, but I would prejudge them
Oh well. Whatever you do don't give him one of those revolutionary republican Garibaldi biscuits.