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The scale of the Tory challenge (and why being a lawyer helps Jenrick) – politicalbetting.com

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  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,176

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s been some poor polling for Harris over recent days .

    TIPP when it was with IBD was pretty accurate last time has shown her dropping back . The caveat though is if you read their site this cycle it’s really a daily anti Harris diatribe of articles and their state polling has shown some weird turnouts in urban areas .

    Last night Atlas Intel which again was okay last time dropped a poll with Trump 3 points ahead , the same as a few weeks back.

    Their state polling was a mixed bag with some good and bad news for Harris which really didn’t fit with the national poll.

    We should get lots of new polling next week . In terms of early vote , that’s looking a bit ropey for Harris but what’s complicating things is the GOP are now pushing early and mail in vote . This means the Election Day vote is likely to be less red and those early votes are likely to be less deep blue .

    Where are you seeing that early voting isn't looking good for Harris?
    I have the same question.
    And we will wait patiently for the answer.
    Am not OP but will guess

    Kamala is ahead in the early voting (postal+in-person) but by a considerably smaller margin than Biden was in 2020 at t-16 days. This may be explained by a reduction in her support or a greater emphasis on early voting by the GOP.

    Compare this page: https://election.lab.ufl.edu/early-vote/2024-early-voting/
    to this page: https://electproject.github.io/Early-Vote-2020G/Early_Vote_Analysis_10_18.html
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,055
    Just checking on train times on Real Time Trains, when up popped an ad from Kemi.

    Targeting the commuter & crank elements of the Tory membership.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,652
    FF43 said:

    As I got somewhat beaten up here about Boris Johnson's position on Amazon Charts, I notice he has dropped to third place one week in in the most sold non fiction list

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/charts/2024-10-13/mostsold/nonfiction?ref=chrt_bk_dx_intra_sd_nf

    Tommy Robinson at number 17 a bit worrying.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,176
    kyf_100 said:

    viewcode said:

    I notice Wes Streeting announcement of smart watches (Leon just wet himself) and smart rings. Details of this will be interesting.

    I have ethical objections to allowing the State to strap a tracking device to me. I am continually saddened by nominally-right-wing people who like a Government that increases/encourage datagathering and monitoring private information and selling it to private individuals. The Government are treating us like a resource to be exploited, not citizens to be served.
    Just wait and see what's in store once programmable money is a thing.

    It will start with people on benefits. Not allowed to buy alcohol and so on. And people will acquiesce to it because they think why should my hard earned tax money be going to bunch of jobless alkies.

    But then it will come for the rest of us. Drinking too much? You'll have a choice - go on the 'no buying alcohol plan' or lose the right to NHS treatment. Not a drinker, but a bit of a fatty? Cards blocked from fast food shops and takeaways.

    People not switching to EVs fast enough? Your card will stop working when you buy more than £100 of petrol a month. And so on, and so forth.

    And we will all be told it's for our own good, of course.
    And we will not only accept it but embrace it and enforce it on other. We are bad people :(
  • "I have ethical objections to allowing the State to strap a tracking device to me. I am continually saddened by nominally-right-wing people who like a Government that increases/encourage data gathering and monitoring private information and selling it to private individuals. The Government are treating us like a resource to be exploited, not citizens to be served.

    Bang on..👌 1984/Brave New World scenarios not welcome..🤨


  • Just checking on train times on Real Time Trains, when up popped an ad from Kemi.

    Targeting the commuter & crank elements of the Tory membership.

    Make Britian Great Again!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,607

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
  • Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209
    edited October 20

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And the pictures he's replaced them with are *hideous*, if the images on Twitter are correct. Shakespeare also represents a lot about this country. The supposed replacements... less so.
    I don't have a view on appropriate art for the walls of Downing Street but I actually like the Paula Rego paintings.
    I don't, but I understand tastes vary. However, they say f-all about the UK. Shakespeare does.
    I think you can make a case for Paula Rego. She is probably the preeminent woman artist of this century who came to the UK as a refugee. Do two of her original works say more, or less, about the UK than a not particularly good copy of a famous portrait of our most famous writer?
  • "I have ethical objections to allowing the State to strap a tracking device to me. I am continually saddened by nominally-right-wing people who like a Government that increases/encourage data gathering and monitoring private information and selling it to private individuals. The Government are treating us like a resource to be exploited, not citizens to be served.

    Bang on..👌 1984/Brave New World scenarios not welcome..🤨


    Completely correct. Milking us likecows. It is about Profit and nothing else. A con.
  • RHuntRHunt Posts: 44

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,411

    MattW said:

    PJH said:

    PJH said:

    The flaw with Cleverley as the saviour in a couple of years time is the spectacular lack of political nous he demonstrated in managing to lose from the position he found himself in. If the next Tory leader does turn out to be a dud, they may be better off looking at someone entirely new.

    I wasn't impressed by Cleverley as a minister - but the reason for his support is that his flaws are less obvious than either Badenoch or Jenrick. I agree with you in theory, but the problem the Tories have in practice is - who is that entirely new superstar?
    Rory Stewart
    Yes, good suggestion except that he doesn't seem interested in resuming a parliamentary career. But he illustrates two problems the Conservative party currently has:

    Politically he is much closer to the LDs than the Conservatives, and it is not his views that have changed much.

    If he (or someone like him) did manage to be elected leader somehow, there would be a mass exodus to Reform. Maybe that would be best for the Conservatives and the country in the long run, but it would probably hole the party below the waterline before it had a chance to rebuild.
    I get the impression that Rory Stewart quite likes being a post politics pontificator. And the podcast is (I assume) paid OK in some way, and if the network is in it's not-yet-profitable phase, Gary Lineker can afford it.

    I can't see any reason for him to go back to a shark infested paddling pool.
    I would imagine the live spin-off shows pay very well and have minimal costs really.
    That's the Iain Dale / Anne Widdecombe track.

    IIRC they even made it to Newark.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,327
    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s been some poor polling for Harris over recent days .

    TIPP when it was with IBD was pretty accurate last time has shown her dropping back . The caveat though is if you read their site this cycle it’s really a daily anti Harris diatribe of articles and their state polling has shown some weird turnouts in urban areas .

    Last night Atlas Intel which again was okay last time dropped a poll with Trump 3 points ahead , the same as a few weeks back.

    Their state polling was a mixed bag with some good and bad news for Harris which really didn’t fit with the national poll.

    We should get lots of new polling next week . In terms of early vote , that’s looking a bit ropey for Harris but what’s complicating things is the GOP are now pushing early and mail in vote . This means the Election Day vote is likely to be less red and those early votes are likely to be less deep blue .

    Where are you seeing that early voting isn't looking good for Harris?
    I have the same question.
    And we will wait patiently for the answer.
    Am not OP but will guess

    Kamala is ahead in the early voting (postal+in-person) but by a considerably smaller margin than Biden was in 2020 at t-16 days. This may be explained by a reduction in her support or a greater emphasis on early voting by the GOP.

    Compare this page: https://election.lab.ufl.edu/early-vote/2024-early-voting/
    to this page: https://electproject.github.io/Early-Vote-2020G/Early_Vote_Analysis_10_18.html
    Cheers thanks. I'd expect that though because last time Trump asked his voters not to use the early mail option.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    edited October 20
    kyf_100 said:

    viewcode said:

    I notice Wes Streeting announcement of smart watches (Leon just wet himself) and smart rings. Details of this will be interesting.

    I have ethical objections to allowing the State to strap a tracking device to me. I am continually saddened by nominally-right-wing people who like a Government that increases/encourage datagathering and monitoring private information and selling it to private individuals. The Government are treating us like a resource to be exploited, not citizens to be served.
    Just wait and see what's in store once programmable money is a thing.

    It will start with people on benefits. Not allowed to buy alcohol and so on. And people will acquiesce to it because they think why should my hard earned tax money be going to bunch of jobless alkies.

    But then it will come for the rest of us. Drinking too much? You'll have a choice - go on the 'no buying alcohol plan' or lose the right to NHS treatment. Not a drinker, but a bit of a fatty? Cards blocked from fast food shops and takeaways.

    People not switching to EVs fast enough? Your card will stop working when you buy more than £100 of petrol a month. And so on, and so forth.

    And we will all be told it's for our own good, of course.
    This is already the case for things like liver transplants. The problem with universal, unconditional public services is the abdication of personal responsibility sees the system collapse. AKA moral hazard.

    If we went for a private healthcare system what you describe would become reality. For example, in the US your premium can be a lot lower if you are a healthy weight - obesity is not a protected pre-existing condition. And in the UK, life insurance already takes into account your lifestyle.

    No one is forced to use the NHS. But I think we should do more to make the service sustainable, including taxing crappy food and incentivising people to keep more active.
  • RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    The east is where there are over 5 trillon dollars of metals under the ground. Russia might settle for that!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209

    Just checking on train times on Real Time Trains, when up popped an ad from Kemi.

    Targeting the commuter & crank elements of the Tory membership.

    Question is, will she make them run on time?
  • FF43 said:

    Just checking on train times on Real Time Trains, when up popped an ad from Kemi.

    Targeting the commuter & crank elements of the Tory membership.

    Question is, will she make them run on time?
    Of course she will.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    edited October 20

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    edited October 20
    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    They were never getting Crimea back, the current phases have been about whether they might be able to get other areas back before things settled into a de facto stalemate. Sad stuff. Not as much back as they would have liked, but not as must lost to Russia as Russia would have wanted.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 3,889
    FF43 said:

    Just checking on train times on Real Time Trains, when up popped an ad from Kemi.

    Targeting the commuter & crank elements of the Tory membership.

    Question is, will she make them run on time?
    ..like Mussolini?..
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And the pictures he's replaced them with are *hideous*, if the images on Twitter are correct. Shakespeare also represents a lot about this country. The supposed replacements... less so.
    I don't have a view on appropriate art for the walls of Downing Street but I actually like the Paula Rego paintings.
    I don't, but I understand tastes vary. However, they say f-all about the UK. Shakespeare does.
    I think you can make a case for Paula Rego. She is probably the preeminent woman artist of this century who came to the UK as a refugee. Do two of her original works say more, or less, about the UK than a not particularly good copy of a famous portrait of our most famous writer?
    Ultimately, if Starmer is happier with different things on the wall in the offices he works in, isn't that enough reason to change things?

    More interesting is why these stories keep coming out. Is it a Downing Street malcontent, or a unofficially official leak? After all, the Telegraph wants to print negative stories about SKS, so better to feed them something negative but a bit silly.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,687
    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    Odessa and (I presume you mean) Kharkiv? Dream on.

    What do you think of Ukraine getting nukes again?
  • FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And the pictures he's replaced them with are *hideous*, if the images on Twitter are correct. Shakespeare also represents a lot about this country. The supposed replacements... less so.
    I don't have a view on appropriate art for the walls of Downing Street but I actually like the Paula Rego paintings.
    I don't, but I understand tastes vary. However, they say f-all about the UK. Shakespeare does.
    I think you can make a case for Paula Rego. She is probably the preeminent woman artist of this century who came to the UK as a refugee. Do two of her original works say more, or less, about the UK than a not particularly good copy of a famous portrait of our most famous writer?
    Ultimately, if Starmer is happier with different things on the wall in the offices he works in, isn't that enough reason to change things?

    More interesting is why these stories keep coming out. Is it a Downing Street malcontent, or a unofficially official leak? After all, the Telegraph wants to print negative stories about SKS, so better to feed them something negative but a bit silly.
    Bring back Pete Mandelson. He would sort out the press.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,411
    edited October 20
    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    I think it's more likely that Russia will lose Manchuria, plus China will gain access to the Pacific, since Russia is firmly on the glide path to 3rd-World-Country-with-some-nukes status, and China has been in population decline since about 2021, and have a need to act PDQ.

    Putin is Xi's bitch, and he knows it.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,176

    Just checking on train times on Real Time Trains, when up popped an ad from Kemi.

    Targeting the commuter & crank elements of the Tory membership.

    The ads you are fed depend on the previous sites you have visited and your favorites. This is why I keep getting ads for Star Trek Online, Eve Online, Ground News and that investment charlatan, despite the fact that I am not a gamer and wouldn't invest with him if you paid me.

    Oh, before I forget, welcome back @MoonRabbit and good article from yesterday @maxh
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950

    Just checking on train times on Real Time Trains, when up popped an ad from Kemi.

    Targeting the commuter & crank elements of the Tory membership.

    Yesterday, paid a brief visit to Doncaster, and in doing so did Werrington dive-under northbound (southbound two weeks back), Gainsborough to Doncaster northbound (did it southbound five YEARS ago!), and the Sleaford Avoider both ways.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209
    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,832
    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s been some poor polling for Harris over recent days .

    TIPP when it was with IBD was pretty accurate last time has shown her dropping back . The caveat though is if you read their site this cycle it’s really a daily anti Harris diatribe of articles and their state polling has shown some weird turnouts in urban areas .

    Last night Atlas Intel which again was okay last time dropped a poll with Trump 3 points ahead , the same as a few weeks back.

    Their state polling was a mixed bag with some good and bad news for Harris which really didn’t fit with the national poll.

    We should get lots of new polling next week . In terms of early vote , that’s looking a bit ropey for Harris but what’s complicating things is the GOP are now pushing early and mail in vote . This means the Election Day vote is likely to be less red and those early votes are likely to be less deep blue .

    Where are you seeing that early voting isn't looking good for Harris?
    I have the same question.
    And we will wait patiently for the answer.
    Am not OP but will guess

    Kamala is ahead in the early voting (postal+in-person) but by a considerably smaller margin than Biden was in 2020 at t-16 days. This may be explained by a reduction in her support or a greater emphasis on early voting by the GOP.

    Compare this page: https://election.lab.ufl.edu/early-vote/2024-early-voting/
    to this page: https://electproject.github.io/Early-Vote-2020G/Early_Vote_Analysis_10_18.html
    Cheers thanks. I'd expect that though because last time Trump asked his voters not to use the early mail option.
    He might regret that if the New York rally is his Sheffield moment.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    MattW said:

    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    I think it's more likely that Russia will lose Manchuria, plus China will gain access to the Pacific, since Russia is firmly on the glide path to 3rd-World-Country-with-some-nukes status, and China is has been in population decline since about 2021, and have a need to act PDQ.

    Putin is Xi's bitch, and he knows it.
    Putin is 72, he just needs to hold off formal capitulation to China until he dies and he'll go happy.

  • HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    That's Putin's wet dream.
  • kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    kinabalu said:

    nico679 said:

    There’s been some poor polling for Harris over recent days .

    TIPP when it was with IBD was pretty accurate last time has shown her dropping back . The caveat though is if you read their site this cycle it’s really a daily anti Harris diatribe of articles and their state polling has shown some weird turnouts in urban areas .

    Last night Atlas Intel which again was okay last time dropped a poll with Trump 3 points ahead , the same as a few weeks back.

    Their state polling was a mixed bag with some good and bad news for Harris which really didn’t fit with the national poll.

    We should get lots of new polling next week . In terms of early vote , that’s looking a bit ropey for Harris but what’s complicating things is the GOP are now pushing early and mail in vote . This means the Election Day vote is likely to be less red and those early votes are likely to be less deep blue .

    Where are you seeing that early voting isn't looking good for Harris?
    I have the same question.
    And we will wait patiently for the answer.
    Am not OP but will guess

    Kamala is ahead in the early voting (postal+in-person) but by a considerably smaller margin than Biden was in 2020 at t-16 days. This may be explained by a reduction in her support or a greater emphasis on early voting by the GOP.

    Compare this page: https://election.lab.ufl.edu/early-vote/2024-early-voting/
    to this page: https://electproject.github.io/Early-Vote-2020G/Early_Vote_Analysis_10_18.html
    Cheers thanks. I'd expect that though because last time Trump asked his voters not to use the early mail option.
    He might regret that if the New York rally is his Sheffield moment.
    Neil!
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And the pictures he's replaced them with are *hideous*, if the images on Twitter are correct. Shakespeare also represents a lot about this country. The supposed replacements... less so.
    I don't have a view on appropriate art for the walls of Downing Street but I actually like the Paula Rego paintings.
    I don't, but I understand tastes vary. However, they say f-all about the UK. Shakespeare does.
    I think you can make a case for Paula Rego. She is probably the preeminent woman artist of this century who came to the UK as a refugee. Do two of her original works say more, or less, about the UK than a not particularly good copy of a famous portrait of our most famous writer?
    Given the impact Shakespeare had on the country, and even our language, they say a heck of a lot less. Orders of magnitude less.
  • RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    That's Putin's wet dream.
    As are the metals under Ukraines ground.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    IME Dura is a lot less knowledgeable than he would make out on such matters. Sometimes, he is provably, and hilariously, wrong.

    Look at what Ukraine's managed to do to Russia's air defences, with a tiny air force (albeit also with an increasingly large drone force...)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    It says much about what he values
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313
    MattW said:

    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    I think it's more likely that Russia will lose Manchuria, plus China will gain access to the Pacific, since Russia is firmly on the glide path to 3rd-World-Country-with-some-nukes status, and China has been in population decline since about 2021, and have a need to act PDQ.

    Putin is Xi's bitch, and he knows it.
    Trump is closer to Putin than Xi, he will impose massive tariffs on Chinese imports but not Russian, he appreciates a fellow white nationalist
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,910

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    ..

    spudgfsh said:

    The only way that the Tories can make enough gains to get close to a majority at the next election they need to do two things.
    1) Reconcile the divide in the right by merging with or destroying the reform party
    2) have policies which can take centre or centre right votes off the Lib Dems.

    Even the best leader in the world would struggle to do both of those but Jenrick and Badenoch will struggle to do one of them.

    I don't think the Conservatives will manage (1) as long as Farage is around. I think their real hope is he disappears. Europe is littered with the remains of Centre Right parties that have at inconsistently tried to co-opt and beat far right alternatives.
    If they can't beat them they may well join with them, Forza Italia are now in government with Lega Nord and Brothers of Italy, the Spanish Popular Party in alliance with Vox and the Moderates in Sweden in government with the Sweden Democrats for instance
    This would be an option for the Conservatives in a PR electoral system. The Berlusconi Party is also very much a junior partner in the Italian coalition.
    Suppose it's a PR system, and the Tories get 35% and the LDs and Reform 16% each, who would the Tories want as partners?
    The queston is the wrong way round though. Who would want to partner with the Tories?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702

    kle4 said:

    Eabhal said:

    My follower count on Bluesky has quintupled over the last 48 hours.

    (but remains less than 5% of my twitter followers)

    Is BlueSky the latest Mastodon? Strangely all the people who said never posting on tw@tter ever again, find me on Mastodon, now never post on Mastodon anymore. And Threads...is that still going? I don't think I ever heard anybody talk about Threads other than the likes of the BBC who got very excited for a day about it.
    Musk may have wanted to back out of the purchase of twitter, and it may be struggling with various issues, but it remains the only game in town.
    What “town”? Let’s look at monthly active user figures, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_platforms_with_at_least_100_million_active_users Twitter has been falling in the ranking and is now down to 15th. The top five are Facebook, YouTube, WhatsApp, Instagram and TikTok.

    OK, if we just focus on microblogging sites, then you could argue that Twitter is… 2nd. It’s still beaten by Weibo. It does remain the largest microblogging site outside of China, but user numbers are falling, and BlueSky is rising: https://techcrunch.com/2024/10/18/bluesky-surges-into-the-top-5-as-x-changes-blocks-permits-ai-training-on-its-data/
    But Bluesky is completely dominated by boring middlebrow unfunny woke lefties like, well, you. Its desperately earnest and dull and there are no opposing arguments

    I can see that boring middlebrow Etcs must like it
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    You still haven’t answered the important question - if a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't think it's a good idea to put everything online. I'd be happier if my medical records stayed on a paper record in a filing cabinet in the local GP surgery.

    In general we are placing a lot of reliance on systems that are open to attack. In a similar way the smartphone, if it became a problem, would be a major one.

    Mine will be the last generation who realises that this is odd:

    A smartphone is: bank, newspaper, magazines, supermarket, multi-retailer and department store, car distributor, postal service, telephone, library and reference library, TV, radio, CD player, work conference, camera, video recorder, church, university of the 3rd and any age, archive, filing cabinet, dating agency.
    It’s notable that in depth digitalisation has worked in the Baltic states (for example). Which have been under continuous online attack from Russia. For decades.
    The Baltics (1) went full in and so committed properly to digitisation (2) saw it primarily as a way to make things better not to reduce costs and (3) realised the security aspect and reacted accordingly.

    The problem in the UK is that we get the worst of both worlds - digitisation which is done primarily to save costs and, because (unlike the US) there is not a major legal / regulatory punishment for those organisations that fail to maintain sufficient security arrangements, nobody really cares about the protection of information aspect.

    Taiwan has done something very similar.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,581
    edited October 20
    I’m looking for a comparison on early voting with 2012. As others have said, Trump discouraged the practice last time (for reasons known only to himself).
  • I’m looking for a comparison on early voting with 2012. As others have said, Trump dissuaded the practice last time (for reasons known only to himself).

    Because The Lord told him to do so.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't think it's a good idea to put everything online. I'd be happier if my medical records stayed on a paper record in a filing cabinet in the local GP surgery.

    In general we are placing a lot of reliance on systems that are open to attack. In a similar way the smartphone, if it became a problem, would be a major one.

    Mine will be the last generation who realises that this is odd:

    A smartphone is: bank, newspaper, magazines, supermarket, multi-retailer and department store, car distributor, postal service, telephone, library and reference library, TV, radio, CD player, work conference, camera, video recorder, church, university of the 3rd and any age, archive, filing cabinet, dating agency.
    Excellent, that should make us more open to civilizational collapse.
    Brillant! Do you remember Samuel L Jackson in Kingsman. Controlling the human race threw the smart phone?
    Surely that was Gordon Brown ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win
  • Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    algarkirk said:

    Andy_JS said:

    I don't think it's a good idea to put everything online. I'd be happier if my medical records stayed on a paper record in a filing cabinet in the local GP surgery.

    In general we are placing a lot of reliance on systems that are open to attack. In a similar way the smartphone, if it became a problem, would be a major one.

    Mine will be the last generation who realises that this is odd:

    A smartphone is: bank, newspaper, magazines, supermarket, multi-retailer and department store, car distributor, postal service, telephone, library and reference library, TV, radio, CD player, work conference, camera, video recorder, church, university of the 3rd and any age, archive, filing cabinet, dating agency.
    Excellent, that should make us more open to civilizational collapse.
    Brillant! Do you remember Samuel L Jackson in Kingsman. Controlling the human race threw the smart phone?
    Surely that was Gordon Brown ?
    Wait ....... It was....... Ed Balls.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452

    HYUFD said:
    The bard. Well I never!
    Bard barred.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,176

    I’m looking for a comparison on early voting with 2012. As others have said, Trump dissuaded the practice last time (for reasons known only to himself).

    I don't have the early voting numbers going back to 2012. The only resource I know for 2016, 2020, 2024 is here: https://election.lab.ufl.edu/early-vote/
  • Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    Let's face it. You want The Don to win. As long as it makes you happy then fine.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,581

    RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    You still haven’t answered the important question - if a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    Why is he still here?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And the pictures he's replaced them with are *hideous*, if the images on Twitter are correct. Shakespeare also represents a lot about this country. The supposed replacements... less so.
    I don't have a view on appropriate art for the walls of Downing Street but I actually like the Paula Rego paintings.
    I don't, but I understand tastes vary. However, they say f-all about the UK. Shakespeare does.
    I think you can make a case for Paula Rego. She is probably the preeminent woman artist of this century who came to the UK as a refugee. Do two of her original works say more, or less, about the UK than a not particularly good copy of a famous portrait of our most famous writer?
    Given the impact Shakespeare had on the country, and even our language, they say a heck of a lot less. Orders of magnitude less.
    Fair enough. I don't have a view on which art is more appropriate.
  • RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    Well done to be still here on a Sunday.
  • RHunt said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    So we are done for. The end is not far off.
    Yes I think Ukraine will have to sacrifice the industrial east and likely Odessa and Krarkiv. They will remain as a rump state in the west and kyiv will stay capital.
    You still haven’t answered the important question - if a plane crashes on the Ukraine/Republic of China border, which side do you bury the survivors?
    Why is he still here?
    In your back garden.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,581
    viewcode said:

    I’m looking for a comparison on early voting with 2012. As others have said, Trump dissuaded the practice last time (for reasons known only to himself).

    I don't have the early voting numbers going back to 2012. The only resource I know for 2016, 2020, 2024 is here: https://election.lab.ufl.edu/early-vote/
    Yes, they aren’t easy to find unfortunately. I have looked - although perhaps I haven’t looked hard enough.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,950
    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    The man-love is strong with this one! :lol:
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
    Erdogan is not really 'mates' with Putin. He has done many things Putin hates: e.g. closing the Bosphorus Strait; providing weapons to Ukraine; and says it wants Ukraine as part of NATO. But they also accept lots of Russians tourists, money and grain.

    Erdogan plays both sides, as is kinda the tradition in Turkey. This does have some advantages, as the original grain deal (broken by Russia) was brokered by Turkey.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    FF43 said:

    As I got somewhat beaten up here about Boris Johnson's position on Amazon Charts, I notice he has dropped to third place one week in in the most sold non fiction list

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/charts/2024-10-13/mostsold/nonfiction?ref=chrt_bk_dx_intra_sd_nf

    Possibly folk have been confused by the large fiction element in BJ’s opus.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    Eabhal said:

    kyf_100 said:

    viewcode said:

    I notice Wes Streeting announcement of smart watches (Leon just wet himself) and smart rings. Details of this will be interesting.

    I have ethical objections to allowing the State to strap a tracking device to me. I am continually saddened by nominally-right-wing people who like a Government that increases/encourage datagathering and monitoring private information and selling it to private individuals. The Government are treating us like a resource to be exploited, not citizens to be served.
    Just wait and see what's in store once programmable money is a thing.

    It will start with people on benefits. Not allowed to buy alcohol and so on. And people will acquiesce to it because they think why should my hard earned tax money be going to bunch of jobless alkies.

    But then it will come for the rest of us. Drinking too much? You'll have a choice - go on the 'no buying alcohol plan' or lose the right to NHS treatment. Not a drinker, but a bit of a fatty? Cards blocked from fast food shops and takeaways.

    People not switching to EVs fast enough? Your card will stop working when you buy more than £100 of petrol a month. And so on, and so forth.

    And we will all be told it's for our own good, of course.
    This is already the case for things like liver transplants. The problem with universal, unconditional public services is the abdication of personal responsibility sees the system collapse. AKA moral hazard.

    If we went for a private healthcare system what you describe would become reality. For example, in the US your premium can be a lot lower if you are a healthy weight - obesity is not a protected pre-existing condition. And in the UK, life insurance already takes into account your lifestyle.

    No one is forced to use the NHS. But I think we should do more to make the service sustainable, including taxing crappy food and incentivising people to keep more active.
    There's a line. Not getting a liver transplant if you don't give up drinking, taxing junk food and so on sits on one side of it. Then it gets murkier. Prescribing PrEP for example. I can see a hard right government in the future arguing it creates a 'moral hazard' by encouraging 'immoral' lifestyles. You see this already with trans healthcare, where the entire system is designed to shunt people into private care. Then you have the really slippery slope. Wear the NHS smartwatch, data gets reported back, now you're ineligible for certain treatments, or data gets sold on to third parties, now you can't get insurance for something (as the supermarket loyalty cards tried to sell data to insurers a few years ago).

    Programmable money is probably the end of the sliding scale, but does seem like a slide we could end up on. Starting with the age old notions of the "deserving poor" vs the "undeserving poor" and limiting how they can spend their money, but ending up being used on all of us, for example to force the transition to EVs.

    Ultimately my view is that big data is going to be used to interfere in all our lives eventually, and it will be state actors, not just insurers, with the power over us.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,452
    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    Your new avatar ?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,313

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
    In containing Israel yes, on Ukraine he is not in full alignment with Putin

    https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-disagrees-with-turkeys-erdogan-that-crimea-should-return-kyivs-control-2024-09-13/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,327
    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    Tipping the odds on fav - that's a bit normcore for such a groovy sounding guy.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
    In containing Israel yes, on Ukraine he is not in full alignment with Putin

    https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-disagrees-with-turkeys-erdogan-that-crimea-should-return-kyivs-control-2024-09-13/
    I understand. If the situation arises where he will be called upon for his assistance I will wait to see what happens as that will show whether he is totally committed by his actions or not irrespective of what he is supposed to do or what the rules say. You only have to look at the way Turkey is governed to see he is a tricky customer.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And the pictures he's replaced them with are *hideous*, if the images on Twitter are correct. Shakespeare also represents a lot about this country. The supposed replacements... less so.
    I don't have a view on appropriate art for the walls of Downing Street but I actually like the Paula Rego paintings.
    I don't, but I understand tastes vary. However, they say f-all about the UK. Shakespeare does.
    That we like mediocre copies from a distant past done of works from an even more distant past?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
    In containing Israel yes, on Ukraine he is not in full alignment with Putin

    https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-disagrees-with-turkeys-erdogan-that-crimea-should-return-kyivs-control-2024-09-13/
    I understand. If the situation arises where he will be called upon for his assistance I will wait to see what happens as that will show whether he is totally committed by his actions or not irrespective of what he is supposed to do or what the rules say. You only have to look at the way Turkey is governed to see he is a tricky customer.
    Interesting article. Actions speak louder than words.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930
    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    My head is now telling me Trump is going to win. My heart still hopes otherwise.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,581

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    I mean, that is a classic of the Godwin genre.

    Wow.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
    In containing Israel yes, on Ukraine he is not in full alignment with Putin

    https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-disagrees-with-turkeys-erdogan-that-crimea-should-return-kyivs-control-2024-09-13/
    And Turkey sells weapons to Ukraine, cheap…
  • DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    My head is now telling me Trump is going to win. My heart still hopes otherwise.
    Really? You seem like you want him to win. I may be wrong by the way.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    I was just seeing what your breaking point of "Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?" lies.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    edited October 20
    MaxPB said:

    Glad to see that Labour are shutting down the whole slavery apology business. It will irk a lot of their support base but fundamentally we shouldn't be sorry for it, no one who is alive today perpetrated slavery and I think apologising for it opens the door to reparations which is obviously a non-starter. If that means more Caribbean countries leave the commonwealth then so be it, let them throw their lot in with China and suffer the fate of Sri Lanka.

    Apologising for slavery is quite good for the UK because it highlights just how much better we were at abolishing it. If Labour put up a statue of Wilberforce on the 4th plinth at the same time it would be quite the PR coup. Or even a HMS Wilberforce given the role the RN played .

    Could even link it to other historical "wins" like Magna Carta to really wind up people on facebook.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,581
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    My head is now telling me Trump is going to win. My heart still hopes otherwise.
    I agree, David. But I may have been overly swayed by the Tipp tracker.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    I mean, that is a classic of the Godwin genre.

    Wow.
    Intentionally. From the replies, I guess people *do* care about the decor of a building they've never been in and aren't allowed in.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,581

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    I mean, that is a classic of the Godwin genre.

    Wow.
    Intentionally. From the replies, I guess people *do* care about the decor of a building they've never been in and aren't allowed in.
    In which case please accept my congratulations on a beautifully crafted Godwin!
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,209

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    I was just seeing what your breaking point of "Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?" lies.
    And when you look back on your life, will you think, “Yes, at 3pm on Sunday 20th October 2024, I contributed to the improvement of online discourse”?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Glad to see that Labour are shutting down the whole slavery apology business. It will irk a lot of their support base but fundamentally we shouldn't be sorry for it, no one who is alive today perpetrated slavery and I think apologising for it opens the door to reparations which is obviously a non-starter. If that means more Caribbean countries leave the commonwealth then so be it, let them throw their lot in with China and suffer the fate of Sri Lanka.

    Apologising for slavery is quite good for the UK because it highlights just how much better we were at abolishing it. If Labour put up a statue of Wilberforce on the 4th plinth at the same time it would be quite the PR coup. Or even a HMS Wilberforce given the role the RN played .

    Could even link it to other historical "wins" like Magna Carta to really wind up people on facebook.
    Wonder how long before “historic war crimes” in the suppression of slavery are raised?

    See the diary I found as a student of an officer stationed on the African anti-slavery patrol….
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,930

    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    My head is now telling me Trump is going to win. My heart still hopes otherwise.
    Really? You seem like you want him to win. I may be wrong by the way.
    I gave a list of reasons why I think Trump being reelected would be bad for the UK this morning. I very much regret the Americans’ choice in this.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    I was just seeing what your breaking point of "Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?" lies.
    How many portraits of the bard do you have up in your house?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
    Erdogan is not really 'mates' with Putin. He has done many things Putin hates: e.g. closing the Bosphorus Strait; providing weapons to Ukraine; and says it wants Ukraine as part of NATO. But they also accept lots of Russians tourists, money and grain.

    Erdogan plays both sides, as is kinda the tradition in Turkey. This does have some advantages, as the original grain deal (broken by Russia) was brokered by Turkey.
    I have read your comments. He does play it both ways. You are right.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 38,877
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Glad to see that Labour are shutting down the whole slavery apology business. It will irk a lot of their support base but fundamentally we shouldn't be sorry for it, no one who is alive today perpetrated slavery and I think apologising for it opens the door to reparations which is obviously a non-starter. If that means more Caribbean countries leave the commonwealth then so be it, let them throw their lot in with China and suffer the fate of Sri Lanka.

    Apologising for slavery is quite good for the UK because it highlights just how much better we were at abolishing it. If Labour put up a statue of Wilberforce on the 4th plinth at the same time it would be quite the PR coup. Or even a HMS Wilberforce given the role the RN played .

    Could even link it to other historical "wins" like Magna Carta to really wind up people on facebook.
    No it isn't because the logical course is "well you say you're sorry but words are empty" to which the government will either have to say "words aren't empty" and struggle to justify not having a reparations programme for the Caribbean and some African countries or they'll have to go into a reparations programme willingly.

    We have nothing to apologise for, all great nations and empires were built on the back of slavery of some kind. Subjugation of the "lesser" still occurs today, where is the outcry about indentured servitude and slavery across the middle east of South Asians and black Africans?

    Fundamentally we don't open the door to these conversations and for once Labour seem to have a bit of a backbone on it. Next stop let's cut the aid budget to 0.2% of GDP and reserve it for disaster relief, it's time for us to look after our own.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,545

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    It is odd though, Starmer's actions are oddly designed as if he's a Tory sleeper agent designed to make Labour so unpopular that mass street parties break out when his party is removed from Government. Banning of smoking in pub gardens, tax rises, getting rid of Shakespeare and Good Queen Bess, the threat of blackouts, giving chunks of territory away and paying for the privilage over 99 years, locking up grannies for spouting off on Facebook and letting out violent criminals - it's like left wing dystopia bingo. Can the banning of Christmas, chips, and unexpectedly sunny afternoons be too far away?

    It reminds me a bit of the Cromwells - except that they were actually competent.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    The Trump is edging it view that we've seen over the last two weeks suits both sides. Harris because in an election in which turnout will be crucial it gives an extra push to their GTTVO operation, and Trump in preparing the ground for his stolen election narrative.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,656

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    Dura also said that Russian air defences are so good that a battery at Moscow could shoot down any NATO aircraft over Ukraine.

    He also claimed that anti-tank missiles never work.

    While today Ukrainian planes keep flying, Ukrainian drones keep hitting any target deep in Russia and Russia has lost thousands of tanks.

    There have been many inaccurate predictions from many people irrespective of their knowledge and experience.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,375
    MattW said:

    RHunt said:

    Barnesian said:

    RHunt said:

    DavidL said:

    If (when) Trump wins we have some very serious decisions to make.

    It has to be doubtful that NATO, the cornerstone of our defence policy since WW2, will survive in its current form.

    Western Europe will have to make a decision about whether they are willing to support Ukraine sufficiently in the absence of American support. This would be a major financial effort.

    We have to decide how we respond to his absurd Tariff policies. In many respects we are already in a post GATT world given the consistent US blocking of new judges to the court but this would rip away any pretense.

    We may have the USA in the same category as China, where we are nervous about having significant parts of our IT infrastructure dependent on them.

    Taiwan and SK will, if anything, be even more scared than western Europe.

    So massive increases in defence spending for less security than we enjoy now, a much more hands on role in a major European war, a major increase in economic instability and a world where dictators get to do what they want provided they say Donald is a nice guy. Overall, I consider this to be suboptimal.

    I think Europe will just let Ukraine go in this instance. The financial cost is too much.
    If Trump wins, Ukraine will go nuclear.
    I think this is right, and it's where the real risk of nuclear war lies.

    People are naive if they think the US and Europe have total discretion with respect to Ukraine. They are not simply going to give up in the face of being abandoned, and meekly accept Russian conquest and national annihilation.

    Ukraine will reach to whatever tools they can to fight for their independence. If they are capable of making nuclear weapons then they will, and if they are to use them to establish a credible deterrence then they will have to prove that they are functional and detonate one. At that point there's a high risk of a Russian retaliation and a large-scale nuclear exchange, depending on how many operational nukes each side has.
    Nonsense. Russia will be in Kyiv in 6 months as the ukraine army collapses.
    3 days, Shirley?

    At least that's what Vlad the Inhaler said before his army had 600k+ killed and wounded trying to achieve it.

    Obviously, he remains a Master Strategist.
    Their mayday parade next year should be fun , one chinese golf cart , two one legged Russians and a couple of North Koreans will be about the limit
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,327

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    I was just seeing what your breaking point of "Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?" lies.
    Well you did it wrong then because going straight in with Hitler is going to get a No from everyone. You need to start with something less extreme and then slide it until you hit that break point.

    So, like this for your opening salvo ...

    "I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Prince up, along with his Purple Rain lyrics as 'art', to be seen by all visitors?"

    And see where that leads.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,545

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Surely we could get air superiority over Ukraine in concert with others?

    Early in the war Dura would regularly say that only the US has the capability to take apart Russian air defences to establish air supremacy.

    Without the US acting as a keystone the rest of NATO lacks key warfighting capabilities.
    France and the UK, Canada and Turkey and Germany and Italy combined have the airpower to more than match Russia but given they haven't even sent combat jets into Ukraine now with US support they certainly won't be without US support. Only in self defence if an actual NATO member attacked.

    If Trump gets in again Zelensky and Ukraine either get nukes or have to accept partition of their nation with Russia
    Partition I would guess. Turkey. The guy who runs the joint is mates with Putin?
    Turkey is part of NATO
    It is .Erdogan is mates with Putin. There lies the contradiction.
    In containing Israel yes, on Ukraine he is not in full alignment with Putin

    https://www.reuters.com/world/moscow-disagrees-with-turkeys-erdogan-that-crimea-should-return-kyivs-control-2024-09-13/
    And Turkey sells weapons to Ukraine, cheap…
    That's big of them. Probably paid for with David Lammy's cheque.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809
    Eabhal said:

    MaxPB said:

    Glad to see that Labour are shutting down the whole slavery apology business. It will irk a lot of their support base but fundamentally we shouldn't be sorry for it, no one who is alive today perpetrated slavery and I think apologising for it opens the door to reparations which is obviously a non-starter. If that means more Caribbean countries leave the commonwealth then so be it, let them throw their lot in with China and suffer the fate of Sri Lanka.

    Apologising for slavery is quite good for the UK because it highlights just how much better we were at abolishing it. If Labour put up a statue of Wilberforce on the 4th plinth at the same time it would be quite the PR coup. Or even a HMS Wilberforce given the role the RN played .

    Could even link it to other historical "wins" like Magna Carta to really wind up people on facebook.
    By the same logic we should have a statue of Hitler. By shooting himself in the face he brought peace to Europe.
  • Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    I was just seeing what your breaking point of "Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?" lies.
    How many portraits of the bard do you have up in your house?
    I never was into Shakespeare. None.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,656

    The Trump is edging it view that we've seen over the last two weeks suits both sides. Harris because in an election in which turnout will be crucial it gives an extra push to their GTTVO operation, and Trump in preparing the ground for his stolen election narrative.

    Although if Trump does lose, a 'stolen election' narrative might suit his ego and his supporters it may be contrary to his own interests.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,832
    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    I was just seeing what your breaking point of "Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?" lies.
    Well you did it wrong then because going straight in with Hitler is going to get a No from everyone. You need to start with something less extreme and then slide it until you hit that break point.

    So, like this for your opening salvo ...

    "I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Prince up, along with his Purple Rain lyrics as 'art', to be seen by all visitors?"

    And see where that leads.
    Starmer clearly has hangups about 'the pictures of the jockeys that were there before me'.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702

    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    Let's face it. You want The Don to win. As long as it makes you happy then fine.
    I don’t. I want the best possible information from good sources

    And he seems like one of those. Extremely well travelled but also highly American. New York Jewish

    He was politically fascinating because he was
    neither Dem nor Rep but deeply analytical

    We had a specific conversation which went like this:

    Him: “Analysts have shown that the most soothing colour is pale green, in fact they’ve shown it is specifically the pale green of sunlight filtered through leaves. In evolutionary terms this is because it means we are sheltered, the weather is good, we are surrounded by fertile land, the trees around us will afford wood for building..”

    Me: “wow. That’s wild because about a year ago I went to the last ICBM silo in America. The one that hosts the Titan city buster nuke missile in Arizona. And they take you down to the depths and they show you the launch room. The place where men would have to press the buttons dooming humanity. And it is painted pale green because they did research to find the most soothing colour and it was that. The didn’t want the nuke launchers freaking
    out”

    Him: “wow! That’s amazing coz…”

    Etc etc. Then we went back to joking about sex

    It did feel a bit like falling in love, the beginnings of a bromance, unfortunately neither of us is gay

    However we did come up with a cool title for his forthcoming short story collection

    THE PALE GREEN NUCLEAR ROOM
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,670
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:
    And the pictures he's replaced them with are *hideous*, if the images on Twitter are correct. Shakespeare also represents a lot about this country. The supposed replacements... less so.
    I don't have a view on appropriate art for the walls of Downing Street but I actually like the Paula Rego paintings.
    I don't, but I understand tastes vary. However, they say f-all about the UK. Shakespeare does.
    I think you can make a case for Paula Rego. She is probably the preeminent woman artist of this century who came to the UK as a refugee. Do two of her original works say more, or less, about the UK than a not particularly good copy of a famous portrait of our most famous writer?
    Given the impact Shakespeare had on the country, and even our language, they say a heck of a lot less. Orders of magnitude less.
    Fair enough. I don't have a view on which art is more appropriate.
    There is a fair amount of the wonderful Paula Rego's output I would not especially want to see every day on the stairs or over the fireplace.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,809

    kinabalu said:

    HYUFD said:
    Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?
    I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Hitler up, along with swastikas as 'art', which is seen by all visitors?
    Is that in any way, shape or form like what has happened? No.
    I was just seeing what your breaking point of "Why do you care about the decor of a building you’ve never been in and aren’t allowed in?" lies.
    Well you did it wrong then because going straight in with Hitler is going to get a No from everyone. You need to start with something less extreme and then slide it until you hit that break point.

    So, like this for your opening salvo ...

    "I guess you would not complain if a PM put portraits of Prince up, along with his Purple Rain lyrics as 'art', to be seen by all visitors?"

    And see where that leads.
    Starmer clearly has hangups about 'the pictures of the jockeys that were there before me'.
    Shakespeare was PM?

    I must have missed that bit at school.
  • Leon said:

    Leon said:

    I have made a spiffing new American friend, Jesse, who is a Japanese language/cultural expert from Brooklyn, a soon-to-be famous writer, the son of a VERY well known US intelligence person

    Here we are having shabu shabu duck together



    Turned out we have equally obsessive interests in ancient archeology, geopolitics, the future of literature, gin, birdwatching, potentially travelling to Taiwan, sex, and AI

    He’s one of the smartest people I’ve ever met

    And he’s convinced Trump is going to win

    Let's face it. You want The Don to win. As long as it makes you happy then fine.
    I don’t. I want the best possible information from good sources

    And he seems like one of those. Extremely well travelled but also highly American. New York Jewish

    He was politically fascinating because he was
    neither Dem nor Rep but deeply analytical

    We had a specific conversation which went like this:

    Him: “Analysts have shown that the most soothing colour is pale green, in fact they’ve shown it is specifically the pale green of sunlight filtered through leaves. In evolutionary terms this is because it means we are sheltered, the weather is good, we are surrounded by fertile land, the trees around us will afford wood for building..”

    Me: “wow. That’s wild because about a year ago I went to the last ICBM silo in America. The one that hosts the Titan city buster nuke missile in Arizona. And they take you down to the depths and they show you the launch room. The place where men would have to press the buttons dooming humanity. And it is painted pale green because they did research to find the most soothing colour and it was that. The didn’t want the nuke launchers freaking
    out”

    Him: “wow! That’s amazing coz…”

    Etc etc. Then we went back to joking about sex

    It did feel a bit like falling in love, the beginnings of a bromance, unfortunately neither of us is gay

    However we did come up with a cool title for his forthcoming short story collection

    THE PALE GREEN NUCLEAR ROOM
    Fair enough.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331

    The Trump is edging it view that we've seen over the last two weeks suits both sides. Harris because in an election in which turnout will be crucial it gives an extra push to their GTTVO operation, and Trump in preparing the ground for his stolen election narrative.

    Although if Trump does lose, a 'stolen election' narrative might suit his ego and his supporters it may be contrary to his own interests.
    Frankly, if he loses he's going down anyway. Unless Harris decrees a federal pardon, which is not inconceivable.
This discussion has been closed.