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Why Trump is (a bit) like Hamas – politicalbetting.com

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,209
    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
  • RHuntRHunt Posts: 44
    We take for granted that young people will ALWAYS be left, but if the young male vote ends up even close to what some polling is saying, it will be years of electoral disaster for Democrats. These voters are reachable. But we struggle to talk to them in a way that isn’t annoying.
    7:13 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    307K
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847340323799777589
  • Russian comments or not, this is an issue.

    Young men and women also seem to be somewhat diverging in politics, in the U.K.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    edited October 19
    NEW THEORY ALERT

    The Japanese toilet is an amazing thing. Warmed seat, choice of electro-sploosh, every toileting whim catered for, then a bottom-friendly air dryer. Superb

    It is also supreme hygienic - what on earth do they think of westerners who are satisfied with dry paper tissues?!

    Anyway their modern toilets are of a piece with their general obsession with hygiene. Not just “shoes off at the door” but separate slippers for different rooms, manic cleaning stations at every public bath, everything you handle wrapped in plastic, ritual
    washing at shrines

    And there’s the very clean rub. I now believe their hygiene obsession comes from their native Shinto religion, with its pressing insistence on purity V defilement. That which is deemed clean must never touch that which is deemed dirty, or the universe will wobble and collapse

    And where does animist Shinto come from? From the animist beliefs of the Siberian Jomon people, who migrated to and settled Japan 14,000 years ago

    So when you marvel at the “front bottom rinse” button on a modern Japanese toilet, you are seeing the belief system of a Paleolithic people (albeit tempered by Zen Buddhism) who crossed the wild Pacific before the end of the Ice Age

    Thanks. I’m here all week. Try the octopus sushi
  • CookieCookie Posts: 13,896
    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    That's because you see "the bad guys" as the bad guys rather than people who have different views to you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,832
    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    The good guys are the ones who categorise people as good or bad, and then accuse the bad guys of being divisive?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,411
    edited October 19
    Leon said:

    NEW THEORY ALERT

    The Japanese toilet is an amazing thing. Warmed seat, choice of electro-sploosh, every toileting whim catered for, then a bottom-friendly air dryer. Superb

    It is also supreme hygienic - what on earth do they think of westerners who are satisfied with dry paper tissues?!

    Anyway their modern toilets are of a piece with their general obsession with hygiene. Not just “shoes off at the door” but separate slippers for different rooms, manic cleaning stations at every public bath, everything you handle wrapped in plastic, ritual
    washing at shrines

    And there’s the very clean rub. I now believe their hygiene obsession comes from their native Shinto religion, with its pressing insistence on purity V defilement. That which is deemed clean must never touch that which is deemed dirty, or the universe will wobble and collapse

    And where does animist Shinto come from? From the animist beliefs of the Siberian Jomon people, who migrated to and settled Japan 14,000 years ago

    So when you marvel at the “front bottom rinse” button on a modern Japanese toilet, you are seeing the belief system of a Paleolithic people (albeit tempered by Zen Buddhism) who crossed the wild Pacific before the end of the Ice Age

    Thanks. I’m here all week. Try the octopus sushi

    Thank-you for the reflection. My feeling is that Ockham's Razor disposes of most of the accoutrements, though they may come into their own in a demographically aging society.

    Serious question - do many of these have a shattaf attached? I'm guessing that as a world-traveller across Asia and the ME you know all about shattafs, and how many regard western toilet paper as unsanitary and backward.

    I wonder if someone will fit a robot proctologist to one?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    edited October 19
    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    That's because you see "the bad guys" as the bad guys rather than people who have different views to you.
    Whether he is doing that I don't think that is the reason he doesn't understand the argument, because the argument does not rely on whether people are agreed on who are good guys or bad guys - but rather how person A doing something is really the fault of person B somehow.

    Put it in your terms that it is people who have different views, why is person with view A to blame for person with view B doing something? It might be a contributing factor for why they are doing it, or why people support it, but it is still the choice of person with view B.

    So I don't think it is as easy to dismiss just because it was framed as good vs bad rather than view A or B, it's more a point of personal responsibility of politicians and their supporters.
  • RHuntRHunt Posts: 44
    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
    Trump is 8/13 to win so the clear favourite.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
    What you need to do is travel to America and talk to people. As I have done extensively these last years - from California to Colorado to New Orleans, Boston and DC

    So much of the most asinine commentary about Trump - on here - comes from people who haven’t left the fucking UK in five years or if they have they went to Malaga or Lanzarote or Prague yet they think that can opine with great wisdom on American politics

    Twats
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    RHunt said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
    Trump is 8/13 to win so the clear favourite.
    I think he has a good shot at winning, but bookies and bettors don't know jack anymore than media pundits do, so whether it's 8/13, 4/7 or 6/7 I would find hard to judge what is value.

    Particularly when it could once again come down to a handful of states with under 1% difference in voteshare, and how any legal challenges work out.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,411
    kle4 said:

    RHunt said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
    Trump is 8/13 to win so the clear favourite.
    I think he has a good shot at winning, but bookies and bettors don't know jack anymore than media pundits do, so whether it's 8/13, 4/7 or 6/7 I would find hard to judge what is value.

    Particularly when it could once again come down to a handful of states with under 1% difference in voteshare, and how any legal challenges work out.
    Given Musk's manipulation, perhaps the value is in laying Trump?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225

    Russian comments or not, this is an issue.

    Young men and women also seem to be somewhat diverging in politics, in the U.K.

    In what direction? In some countries the younger men are getting more right wing, is that the case here? Or one is more liberal than the other?

    Liberal minded women in their 20s might have to find suitable partners among liberal minded men in their 30s perhaps.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,449

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    The good guys are the ones who categorise people as good or bad, and then accuse the bad guys of being divisive?
    Like Trump does?
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,915
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
    What you need to do is travel to America and talk to people. As I have done extensively these last years - from California to Colorado to New Orleans, Boston and DC

    So much of the most asinine commentary about Trump - on here - comes from people who haven’t left the fucking UK in five years or if they have they went to Malaga or Lanzarote or Prague yet they think that can opine with great wisdom on American politics

    Twats
    I concur its a bit like lots of the asinine commentary about the UK comes from people who spend little time here and are generally in Japan, Baku or Switzerland, yet thinks he can opine with great wisdom on our politics. Twat.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    NEW THEORY ALERT

    The Japanese toilet is an amazing thing. Warmed seat, choice of electro-sploosh, every toileting whim catered for, then a bottom-friendly air dryer. Superb

    It is also supreme hygienic - what on earth do they think of westerners who are satisfied with dry paper tissues?!

    Anyway their modern toilets are of a piece with their general obsession with hygiene. Not just “shoes off at the door” but separate slippers for different rooms, manic cleaning stations at every public bath, everything you handle wrapped in plastic, ritual
    washing at shrines

    And there’s the very clean rub. I now believe their hygiene obsession comes from their native Shinto religion, with its pressing insistence on purity V defilement. That which is deemed clean must never touch that which is deemed dirty, or the universe will wobble and collapse

    And where does animist Shinto come from? From the animist beliefs of the Siberian Jomon people, who migrated to and settled Japan 14,000 years ago

    So when you marvel at the “front bottom rinse” button on a modern Japanese toilet, you are seeing the belief system of a Paleolithic people (albeit tempered by Zen Buddhism) who crossed the wild Pacific before the end of the Ice Age

    Thanks. I’m here all week. Try the octopus sushi

    Thank-you for the reflection. My feeling is that Ockham's Razor disposes of most of the accoutrements, though they may come into their own in a demographically aging society.

    Serious question - do many of these have a shattaf attached? I'm guessing that as a world-traveller across Asia and the ME you know all about shattafs, and how many regard western toilet paper as unsanitary and backward.

    I wonder if someone will fit a robot proctologist to one?
    You mean a “bum gun”? I have one of these at home in London. I got so used to superior foreign toilets I can’t abide British/western toilets now - most unsanitary

    But the japs have gone beyond the bum gun. In the best places they gave special nozzles under the lav underhang which automatically zzzzzip out and sploosh you just how you like it, and then retract

    Lovely. And the warm toilet seats are bliss

  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    edited October 19

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
    What you need to do is travel to America and talk to people. As I have done extensively these last years - from California to Colorado to New Orleans, Boston and DC

    So much of the most asinine commentary about Trump - on here - comes from people who haven’t left the fucking UK in five years or if they have they went to Malaga or Lanzarote or Prague yet they think that can opine with great wisdom on American politics

    Twats
    I concur its a bit like lots of the asinine commentary about the UK comes from people who spend little time here and are generally in Japan, Baku or Switzerland, yet thinks he can opine with great wisdom on our politics. Twat.
    I spend about a quarter/third of the year in the UK
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    MattW said:

    kle4 said:

    RHunt said:

    kle4 said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    There's perhaps a point to be made about complacency or elitist arrogance, sure, but it can be taken rather too far.

    I find it hard to judge the US scene because of how polarised it is, way more than anything we see here. I'm inundated by anti-Trump stories because of things I've looked at before, and some are increasingly confident of a win but others are very much still quaking in their boots at how close it might be, and the pro-Trump stuff from the UK itself is so limited to places like Guido that it is like looking at another world, despite the massive support Trump has in america itself.
    Trump is 8/13 to win so the clear favourite.
    I think he has a good shot at winning, but bookies and bettors don't know jack anymore than media pundits do, so whether it's 8/13, 4/7 or 6/7 I would find hard to judge what is value.

    Particularly when it could once again come down to a handful of states with under 1% difference in voteshare, and how any legal challenges work out.
    Given Musk's manipulation, perhaps the value is in laying Trump?
    The thing I find funny about Musk's personal rhetoric, and it's not something unique to him, is that it is so apocalyptic about the need to support Trump that the question would have to be why didn't he come out in fulsome support so much longer ago? I remember thinking when Carswell quit the Tories for UKIP he gave an explanation which was so detailed it was like 'and you only just quit now?'. I get not making such a move lightly, but people can really oversell it.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,674

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Your two answers show why the problem hasn't been addressed.
  • RHuntRHunt Posts: 44
    kle4 said:

    Russian comments or not, this is an issue.

    Young men and women also seem to be somewhat diverging in politics, in the U.K.

    In what direction? In some countries the younger men are getting more right wing, is that the case here? Or one is more liberal than the other?

    Liberal minded women in their 20s might have to find suitable partners among liberal minded men in their 30s perhaps.
    Ah i see. You are pitching for young women in their 20s by posing as a liberal. Excellent strategy.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    There has definitely been an attempt by the Democrats. They aren't ignoring places like Wisconsin, Kamala has firmed up on issues like immigration, and tried to recover lost ground among latino voters etc.

    It may not work sufficiently, we shall see, but they have made some effort to repivot where they know they have lost some support. Young white men is probably an area which needs more time and effort to address.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,074
    edited October 19
    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    The Democrats have run a dismal campaign. It's been a masterclass in how NOT to do things. They've been staggeringly complacent - though in fairness there were plenty of people on here who thought Biden would walk it when Trump has convicted of 34 felonies, or that Kamala's honeymoon period would be sustained.

    They'd probably been in better shape if they hadn't:

    - shamelessly lied about Biden being mentally up to it when he clearly wasn't
    - bypassed any kind of normal selection procedure to give the role to someone who lost the Democratic primaries convincingly in 2020
    - gone about attracting young working class white men by rubber-stamping a middle-aged, middle class, non-white woman
    - above all, chosen a candidate who is completely free of charisma and the kind of sunny optimism, however vacuous, that can beat Donald Trump's nasty pessimism.

    If Trump wins in a couple of weeks, I think it will have been an entirely avoidable disaster for the free world. I wouldn't care if the consequences were confined to a few offices and campuses in New York and Washington. I'm worried that the brave soldiers of Ukraine may well bear the brunt of it.
  • RHuntRHunt Posts: 44
    I remember as far back as 2014 i met a guy in Costa Rica who told me how pissed off Americans were and he had left the country and married a costa rican as american women had too much power. This stuff has been brewing for ages.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225

    “The “Andrew Tate Trump” appeals to young Alpha Males who fear a life treading on eggshells and being bossed around by cat ladies.”

    Is it only Leon among you, who feels this particular appeal of giving Trump power? Are the rest of you all Beta Males?

    PB - the Al Gore of political blogs?

    The voters will never make a Beta Male President.

    Its not the Alpha Males he's appealing to but the Gamma and Delta Males who think they deserve to be Alpha Males.
    As a beta male at best I don't quite get how gamma and delta males fawning over the likes of Tate will turn them into their perferred vision of an alpha. I assume there's a degree of envious admiration of his lifestyle and don't give a crap attitude which people wish they could indulge in as well, but I'd expect fervour to come from expecting to one day be able to be like him, which simping for him would not achieve.

    It feels like running a course on assertiveness, where the endgoal would be the particants have the confidence to tell the trainer they are not needed.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,674
    John Gray has one of the best explanations for populism imo.

    "What they call populism is the political blowback against the social disruption their policies have produced. They can't understand the connection between what they've done and populism".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rsGkfngA5M
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,327
    edited October 19
    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    Horseshit, isn't it. Most of Trump's vote is not economically disadvantaged and most of the economically disadvantaged do not vote Trump.
  • RHuntRHunt Posts: 44
    Fishing said:

    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    The Democrats have run a dismal campaign. It's been a masterclass in how NOT to do things.

    They'd probably been in better shape if they hadn't:

    - shamelessly lied about Biden being mentally up to it when he clearly wasn't
    - bypassed any kind of normal selection procedure to give the role to someone who lost the Democratic primaries convincingly in 2020
    - gone about attracting young working class white men by rubber-stamping a middle-aged, middle class, non-white woman
    - above all, chosen a candidate who is completely free of charisma and the kind of sunny optimism, however vacuous, that can beat Donald Trump's nasty pessimism.

    If Trump wins in a couple of weeks, I think it will have been an entirely avoidable disaster for the free world. I wouldn't care if the consequences were confined to a few offices and campuses in New York and Washington. I'm worried that the brave soldiers of Ukraine may well bear the brunt of it.
    Sadly if Trump wins in 2 weeks its over for Ukraine. It will also likely lead to a surge in the far right throughout Europe as thesr movements are emboldened.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    Load of horseshit. Most of Trump's vote is not economically disadvantaged and most of the economically disadvantaged do not vote Trump.
    Ah, the Sage of Bruges. He speaks
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,674
    Wisconsin has joined Pennsylvania as an "even" state with 538.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,753
    Andy_JS said:

    John Gray has one of the best explanations for populism imo.

    "What they call populism is the political blowback against the social disruption their policies have produced. They can't understand the connection between what they've done and populism".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rsGkfngA5M

    The main explanation is pure stupidity on the part of people who vote for populists.

    What's the solution to that problem?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Fishing said:

    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    The Democrats have run a dismal campaign. It's been a masterclass in how NOT to do things.

    They'd probably been in better shape if they hadn't:

    - shamelessly lied about Biden being mentally up to it when he clearly wasn't
    - bypassed any kind of normal selection procedure to give the role to someone who lost the Democratic primaries convincingly in 2020
    - gone about attracting young working class white men by rubber-stamping a middle-aged, middle class, non-white woman
    - above all, chosen a candidate who is completely free of charisma and the kind of sunny optimism, however vacuous, that can beat Donald Trump's nasty pessimism.

    If Trump wins in a couple of weeks, I think it will have been an entirely avoidable disaster for the free world. And the brave soldiers of Ukraine may well bear the brunt of it.
    The bottom 3 points you raise are really all a consequence of the first. By the time Biden's decline was too obvious to be excusable or accepted in a 'let's just get through November and deal with it then' kind of way it was probably too late for any kind protracted contest and reorganisation to unify. By the very act of Biden going there was never able to be a 'normal' selection procedure after that.

    I don't really get the no charisma argument about Harris though. She didn't do well in the primaries, and she doesn't seem amazing, which might be a worthy criticism of ending up with her as the candidate, but she's not a charisma black hole either, she's decently animated and expressive. If she fails that will be a terrible failure, but she's not Corbynesque or anything.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,411
    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    NEW THEORY ALERT

    The Japanese toilet is an amazing thing. Warmed seat, choice of electro-sploosh, every toileting whim catered for, then a bottom-friendly air dryer. Superb

    It is also supreme hygienic - what on earth do they think of westerners who are satisfied with dry paper tissues?!

    Anyway their modern toilets are of a piece with their general obsession with hygiene. Not just “shoes off at the door” but separate slippers for different rooms, manic cleaning stations at every public bath, everything you handle wrapped in plastic, ritual
    washing at shrines

    And there’s the very clean rub. I now believe their hygiene obsession comes from their native Shinto religion, with its pressing insistence on purity V defilement. That which is deemed clean must never touch that which is deemed dirty, or the universe will wobble and collapse

    And where does animist Shinto come from? From the animist beliefs of the Siberian Jomon people, who migrated to and settled Japan 14,000 years ago

    So when you marvel at the “front bottom rinse” button on a modern Japanese toilet, you are seeing the belief system of a Paleolithic people (albeit tempered by Zen Buddhism) who crossed the wild Pacific before the end of the Ice Age

    Thanks. I’m here all week. Try the octopus sushi

    Thank-you for the reflection. My feeling is that Ockham's Razor disposes of most of the accoutrements, though they may come into their own in a demographically aging society.

    Serious question - do many of these have a shattaf attached? I'm guessing that as a world-traveller across Asia and the ME you know all about shattafs, and how many regard western toilet paper as unsanitary and backward.

    I wonder if someone will fit a robot proctologist to one?
    You mean a “bum gun”? I have one of these at home in London. I got so used to superior foreign toilets I can’t abide British/western toilets now - most unsanitary

    But the japs have gone beyond the bum gun. In the best places they gave special nozzles under the lav underhang which automatically zzzzzip out and sploosh you just how you like it, and then retract

    Lovely. And the warm toilet seats are bliss

    Not sure what that means. Is a "bum gun" mounted on the loo, like the traditional "up the bum" fountain in a bidet?

    I think the common English phrase is Hand Shower. Colloquially some use "Muslim Shower".

    Example:
    https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/modern-chrome-manual-douche-spray-kit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    edited October 19
    RHunt said:

    kle4 said:

    Russian comments or not, this is an issue.

    Young men and women also seem to be somewhat diverging in politics, in the U.K.

    In what direction? In some countries the younger men are getting more right wing, is that the case here? Or one is more liberal than the other?

    Liberal minded women in their 20s might have to find suitable partners among liberal minded men in their 30s perhaps.
    Ah i see. You are pitching for young women in their 20s by posing as a liberal. Excellent strategy.
    Only results will determine if it is excellent or not.

    Also, people in their 40s are more interesting.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,176
    edited October 19

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    nico679 said:

    And how exactly will Trumps policies help the alleged downtrodden of forgotten America ?

    I could understand Trumps support if he had any policies that would help the Average Joe . As it is Trump appeals to the “ its always someone else’s fault “ brigade .

    Aswell as the racists and migrant haters .

    Thankfully our politics here hasn’t descended to the level of hate and polarization seen in the USA and there are still lines that can’t be crossed if you want to get elected .

    They won’t help. But my gut tells me the momentum is now with him and he’s going to win this one. We should be buckling up for an interesting 4 years.

    European currencies the day of his victory will be interesting as they’ll tell us how seriously or otherwise the markets take his tariff threats. If he goes ahead with what he’s promised we’re talking global trade depression, given China’s economy is simultaneously buckling under.
    It’s worth noting that Biden has been pursuing a protectionist, tariff policy in various areas. To explicitly bring manufacturing back to the US.
    But notably not focused on Europe except in very narrow areas. It’s 90% China policy.
    Yup. And Trumpian voters are not worried about French Brie undermining their jobs.

    Biden’s project was to turn around the belief that outsourcing everything to China and Mexico was the way to go.

    On the left, this outsourcing is seen as part and parcel of financialisarion of companies.

    1) take over company
    2) outsource production/workforce
    3) sell the assets
    4) load up with debt

    The difference with Trump is the degree, and the stark violation of norms he proposes, to deal with the issue.

    These are the two of the reasons he gets votes.
    Speaking of selling England by the pound, we haven't talked about Palantir for a while:

    https://nitter.poast.org/JolyonMaugham/status/1847287463137382444#m
    https://nitter.poast.org/JolyonMaugham/status/1846906016081846365#m
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    MattW said:

    Leon said:

    NEW THEORY ALERT

    The Japanese toilet is an amazing thing. Warmed seat, choice of electro-sploosh, every toileting whim catered for, then a bottom-friendly air dryer. Superb

    It is also supreme hygienic - what on earth do they think of westerners who are satisfied with dry paper tissues?!

    Anyway their modern toilets are of a piece with their general obsession with hygiene. Not just “shoes off at the door” but separate slippers for different rooms, manic cleaning stations at every public bath, everything you handle wrapped in plastic, ritual
    washing at shrines

    And there’s the very clean rub. I now believe their hygiene obsession comes from their native Shinto religion, with its pressing insistence on purity V defilement. That which is deemed clean must never touch that which is deemed dirty, or the universe will wobble and collapse

    And where does animist Shinto come from? From the animist beliefs of the Siberian Jomon people, who migrated to and settled Japan 14,000 years ago

    So when you marvel at the “front bottom rinse” button on a modern Japanese toilet, you are seeing the belief system of a Paleolithic people (albeit tempered by Zen Buddhism) who crossed the wild Pacific before the end of the Ice Age

    Thanks. I’m here all week. Try the octopus sushi

    Thank-you for the reflection. My feeling is that Ockham's Razor disposes of most of the accoutrements, though they may come into their own in a demographically aging society.

    Serious question - do many of these have a shattaf attached? I'm guessing that as a world-traveller across Asia and the ME you know all about shattafs, and how many regard western toilet paper as unsanitary and backward.

    I wonder if someone will fit a robot proctologist to one?
    You mean a “bum gun”? I have one of these at home in London. I got so used to superior foreign toilets I can’t abide British/western toilets now - most unsanitary

    But the japs have gone beyond the bum gun. In the best places they gave special nozzles under the lav underhang which automatically zzzzzip out and sploosh you just how you like it, and then retract

    Lovely. And the warm toilet seats are bliss

    Not sure what that means. Is a "bum gun" mounted on the loo, like the traditional "up the bum" fountain in a bidet?

    I think the common English phrase is Hand Shower. Colloquially some use "Muslim Shower".

    Example:
    https://www.victorianplumbing.co.uk/modern-chrome-manual-douche-spray-kit
    Yes. The bum gun

    Increasingly found across the world - especially in high end hotels - as richer customers demand it
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Leon said:

    NEW THEORY ALERT

    The Japanese toilet is an amazing thing. Warmed seat, choice of electro-sploosh, every toileting whim catered for, then a bottom-friendly air dryer. Superb

    It is also supreme hygienic - what on earth do they think of westerners who are satisfied with dry paper tissues?!

    Anyway their modern toilets are of a piece with their general obsession with hygiene. Not just “shoes off at the door” but separate slippers for different rooms, manic cleaning stations at every public bath, everything you handle wrapped in plastic, ritual
    washing at shrines

    And there’s the very clean rub. I now believe their hygiene obsession comes from their native Shinto religion, with its pressing insistence on purity V defilement. That which is deemed clean must never touch that which is deemed dirty, or the universe will wobble and collapse

    And where does animist Shinto come from? From the animist beliefs of the Siberian Jomon people, who migrated to and settled Japan 14,000 years ago

    So when you marvel at the “front bottom rinse” button on a modern Japanese toilet, you are seeing the belief system of a Paleolithic people (albeit tempered by Zen Buddhism) who crossed the wild Pacific before the end of the Ice Age

    Thanks. I’m here all week. Try the octopus sushi

    I truly hope this is part of their marketing copy, it would get me interested.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,674
    edited October 19
    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    kle4 said:

    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    There has definitely been an attempt by the Democrats. They aren't ignoring places like Wisconsin, Kamala has firmed up on issues like immigration, and tried to recover lost ground among latino voters etc.

    It may not work sufficiently, we shall see, but they have made some effort to repivot where they know they have lost some support. Young white men is probably an area which needs more time and effort to address.
    I wonder if the sudden pessimism amongst dems is justified?! The polls have only shifted a tad

    Harris has made several errors recently, the worst of which was that “let blacks be weed dealers” tweet. Unbelievably stupid. That might lose her the election. And the GOP cleverly dug up her old woke Columbus Day shite. That also harmed her

    However Trump is a very poor and increasingly deranged candidate. I’d still have Harris as favourite

    Maybe 62/38 percent so
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,775
    Be interesting to see if Reeves announces a significant investment in "bum guns" in the budget. Might be the kind of nifty idea that transforms the UK economy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    Eabhal said:

    Be interesting to see if Reeves announces a significant investment in "bum guns" in the budget. Might be the kind of nifty idea that transforms the UK economy.

    I would probably vote for anyone who made bum guns, at a minimum, mandatory in the UK

    At best we want Japanese toilets, as @Andy_JS notes
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    There has definitely been an attempt by the Democrats. They aren't ignoring places like Wisconsin, Kamala has firmed up on issues like immigration, and tried to recover lost ground among latino voters etc.

    It may not work sufficiently, we shall see, but they have made some effort to repivot where they know they have lost some support. Young white men is probably an area which needs more time and effort to address.
    I wonder if the sudden pessimism amongst dems is justified?! The polls have only shifted a tad

    Harris has made several errors recently, the worst of which was that “let blacks be weed dealers” tweet. Unbelievably stupid. That might lose her the election. And the GOP cleverly dug up her old woke Columbus Day shite. That also harmed her

    However Trump is a very poor and increasingly deranged candidate. I’d still have Harris as favourite

    Maybe 62/38 percent so
    If the 'exhausted and disorientated Trump' attacks can hit home among the few people who still do not know that is how he is now (his energy levels in previous campaigns was genuinely impressive, not so much now) then that may claw things back a bit.

    Ruthless effort now needed from them - no getting distracted with dreams of Florida or Texas.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    Leon said:

    NEW THEORY ALERT

    The Japanese toilet is an amazing thing. Warmed seat, choice of electro-sploosh, every toileting whim catered for, then a bottom-friendly air dryer. Superb

    It is also supreme hygienic - what on earth do they think of westerners who are satisfied with dry paper tissues?!

    Anyway their modern toilets are of a piece with their general obsession with hygiene. Not just “shoes off at the door” but separate slippers for different rooms, manic cleaning stations at every public bath, everything you handle wrapped in plastic, ritual
    washing at shrines

    And there’s the very clean rub. I now believe their hygiene obsession comes from their native Shinto religion, with its pressing insistence on purity V defilement. That which is deemed clean must never touch that which is deemed dirty, or the universe will wobble and collapse

    And where does animist Shinto come from? From the animist beliefs of the Siberian Jomon people, who migrated to and settled Japan 14,000 years ago

    So when you marvel at the “front bottom rinse” button on a modern Japanese toilet, you are seeing the belief system of a Paleolithic people (albeit tempered by Zen Buddhism) who crossed the wild Pacific before the end of the Ice Age

    Thanks. I’m here all week. Try the octopus sushi

    But do they know how to use The Three Seashells?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    Andy_JS said:

    John Gray has one of the best explanations for populism imo.

    "What they call populism is the political blowback against the social disruption their policies have produced. They can't understand the connection between what they've done and populism".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rsGkfngA5M

    They're totally incapable of understanding it because they can't accept there would be any that isn't entirely beneficial.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
  • I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    There has definitely been an attempt by the Democrats. They aren't ignoring places like Wisconsin, Kamala has firmed up on issues like immigration, and tried to recover lost ground among latino voters etc.

    It may not work sufficiently, we shall see, but they have made some effort to repivot where they know they have lost some support. Young white men is probably an area which needs more time and effort to address.
    I wonder if the sudden pessimism amongst dems is justified?! The polls have only shifted a tad

    Harris has made several errors recently, the worst of which was that “let blacks be weed dealers” tweet. Unbelievably stupid. That might lose her the election. And the GOP cleverly dug up her old woke Columbus Day shite. That also harmed her

    However Trump is a very poor and increasingly deranged candidate. I’d still have Harris as favourite

    Maybe 62/38 percent so
    If the 'exhausted and disorientated Trump' attacks can hit home among the few people who still do not know that is how he is now (his energy levels in previous campaigns was genuinely impressive, not so much now) then that may claw things back a bit.

    Ruthless effort now needed from them - no getting distracted with dreams of Florida or Texas.
    Hysterical fear of Trump makes them exaggerate his chances of winning

    Tho, he does have a notable chance of winning, given his manifold flaws
  • Andy_JS said:

    John Gray has one of the best explanations for populism imo.

    "What they call populism is the political blowback against the social disruption their policies have produced. They can't understand the connection between what they've done and populism".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rsGkfngA5M

    He's partly right, but it's also blowback against policies I seem to remember him supporting. He was a Thatcherite favourite, as I remember.

    This is a common problem on the right, nowadays. These politicians are somehow "blowback" against "Liberal Globalisation" , and "Global Elites", but somehow also not simultaneously against the Thatcher and Reagan policies that did so much to bring this state of affairs about.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557

    Andy_JS said:

    John Gray has one of the best explanations for populism imo.

    "What they call populism is the political blowback against the social disruption their policies have produced. They can't understand the connection between what they've done and populism".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rsGkfngA5M

    They're totally incapable of understanding it because they can't accept there would be any that isn't entirely beneficial.
    I should add, that taken to its logical conclusion it means that there's a risk that all the positive gains of liberalism get overturned in the next 30-50 years.

    Which means we could go back to societies where sexism, racism and discrimination are normalised again, with limited rights, unless they rein it in and listen to the concerns of the overreach their policies have caused and the blowback.

    The alternative - condemning them harder and faster - will only accelerate their eventual demise.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,557
    Cookie said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    That's because you see "the bad guys" as the bad guys rather than people who have different views to you.
    He's incapable of understanding.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    edited October 19
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
    Toilet/sanitation standards are an excellent measure of a civilisation’s standing and trajectory

    Eg we admire the Romans for their clever toilets and sewage systems (and central heating and baths etc)

    The West was once far ahead in all this. The British invented the flushing loo with u-bend. Since then we’ve, er, sat on our laurels and others have overtaken us and look askance on our facilities, and that speaks to a wider decline
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
    Toilet/sanitation standards are an excellent measure of a civilisation’s standing and trajectory

    Eg we admire the Romans for their clever toilets and sewage systems (and central heating and baths etc)

    The West was once far ahead in all this. The British invented the flushing loo with u-bend. Since then we’ve, er, sat on our laurels and others have overtaken us and look askance on our facilities, and that speaks to a wider decline
    A 'How well did they clean up their shit?' index/thesis would make for an interesting read to assess cultures across history.

    Never forget even rich people used to have go in glorified buckets, and now look at us - so no one tell us the industrialisation of humanity and associated developments has been a bad thing!
  • kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    I have taken into account your point of view. Global arms sales are worth quite a few Trillion. I can see a lot of waffle and backtracking on the horizon if Trump wins. The reality USA Arms companies will continue to find a way to ship their Arms there and anywhere else they can in the World. Whoever wins the election, and they will continue to do for the forseeable future unless the demand for arms worldwide miraculously stops.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    edited October 19
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
    Toilet/sanitation standards are an excellent measure of a civilisation’s standing and trajectory

    Eg we admire the Romans for their clever toilets and sewage systems (and central heating and baths etc)

    The West was once far ahead in all this. The British invented the flushing loo with u-bend. Since then we’ve, er, sat on our laurels and others have overtaken us and look askance on our facilities, and that speaks to a wider decline
    A 'How well did they clean up their shit?' index/thesis would make for an interesting read to assess cultures across history.

    Never forget even rich people used to have go in glorified buckets, and now look at us - so no one tell us the industrialisation of humanity and associated developments has been a bad thing!
    One of the many amazing aspects of the Palace of Versailles is that the glorious architecture was far in advance of the necessary sanitation, which simply didn’t exist

    They built a couple of water closets for the Sun King but they had no idea how to install facilities for hundreds of nobles and thousands of servants

    So rich aristo Frenchwomen were forced to literally squat and pee in Versailles corridors, hoping no one would come along
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,082
    Eabhal said:

    Be interesting to see if Reeves announces a significant investment in "bum guns" in the budget. Might be the kind of nifty idea that transforms the UK economy.

    Perhaps it will be in the budget as mandatory for all toilets nationwide to be so equipped by 2029. An objectively good idea defeated by a ludicrously expensive deadline would seem about par for the government's performance so far.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,832
    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
    Toilet/sanitation standards are an excellent measure of a civilisation’s standing and trajectory

    Eg we admire the Romans for their clever toilets and sewage systems (and central heating and baths etc)

    The West was once far ahead in all this. The British invented the flushing loo with u-bend. Since then we’ve, er, sat on our laurels and others have overtaken us and look askance on our facilities, and that speaks to a wider decline
    A 'How well did they clean up their shit?' index/thesis would make for an interesting read to assess cultures across history.

    Never forget even rich people used to have go in glorified buckets, and now look at us - so no one tell us the industrialisation of humanity and associated developments has been a bad thing!
    It could be a bestselling book entitled “What a load of old shit”.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    To aspiring young Britons, who will be out next Joseph Bazalgette?
  • On the question about diverging male/female politics, weren't spme of the polls beginning to show some similar signs to the U.S., here , with men to the right and women to the left? At least I thought so.

    On toilets, although I like Leon's descriptions of.Japan, I'm not sure that the very German, Japanese or American concepts of cleanliness as always linked to civilisation.always hold water, so to speak. The French are both more civilised and less civilised than the Anglo-Saxon world, for instance, and tend to be a bit less bothered, on it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476
    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,405
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
    Toilet/sanitation standards are an excellent measure of a civilisation’s standing and trajectory

    Eg we admire the Romans for their clever toilets and sewage systems (and central heating and baths etc)

    The West was once far ahead in all this. The British invented the flushing loo with u-bend. Since then we’ve, er, sat on our laurels and others have overtaken us and look askance on our facilities, and that speaks to a wider decline
    A 'How well did they clean up their shit?' index/thesis would make for an interesting read to assess cultures across history.

    Never forget even rich people used to have go in glorified buckets, and now look at us - so no one tell us the industrialisation of humanity and associated developments has been a bad thing!
    One of the many amazing aspects of the Palace of Versailles is that the glorious architecture was far in advance of the necessary sanitation, which simply didn’t exist

    They built a couple of water closets for the Sun King but they had no idea how to install facilities for hundreds of nobles and thousands of servants

    So rich aristo Frenchwomen were forced to literally squat and pee in Versailles corridors, hoping no one would come along
    They had hot and cold running water for baths, yet considered toilets unimportant. Yet, Windsor Castle had privies in the 14th century.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,476

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
    Toilet/sanitation standards are an excellent measure of a civilisation’s standing and trajectory

    Eg we admire the Romans for their clever toilets and sewage systems (and central heating and baths etc)

    The West was once far ahead in all this. The British invented the flushing loo with u-bend. Since then we’ve, er, sat on our laurels and others have overtaken us and look askance on our facilities, and that speaks to a wider decline
    A 'How well did they clean up their shit?' index/thesis would make for an interesting read to assess cultures across history.

    Never forget even rich people used to have go in glorified buckets, and now look at us - so no one tell us the industrialisation of humanity and associated developments has been a bad thing!
    It could be a bestselling book entitled “What a load of old shit”.
    Or ‘the art of the deal?’
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,702
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    I predict the Ukrainians will have another pop at Trump before November 5
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,405

    On the question about diverging male/female politics, weren't spme of the polls beginning to show some similar signs to the U.S., here , with men to the right and women to the left? At least I thought so.

    On toilets, although I like Leon's descriptions of.Japan, I'm not sure that the very German, Japanese or American concepts of cleanliness as always linked to civilisation.always hold water, so to speak. The French are both more civilised and less civilised than the Anglo-Saxon world, for instance, and tend to be a bit less bothered, on it.

    I remember once having lunch at a Parisian cafe, when a man came up, squatted down, and took a dump in the gutter, in front of me.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    The American political system has many serious structural problems but maybe the biggest is its sheer cost - a point which is almost never addressed and taken by those there as simply a law of nature.

    If it costs hundreds of millions or billions to run for high office, you need to please those who donate. It's not a coincidence that the mega-wealthy have done very well out of DC in the last 30-40 years, while middle-class incomes have stagnated. A system that relies on the super-rich will not excessively cross their interests.

    But as so often, a skilled manipulator - which Trump is - can deflect the anger of the mob to an even more marginalised group, while maintaining a status quo that suits him very well.
    Read the history of the late Roman Republic. Which was carefully and explicitly run by the rich. The job of the Censors, for example, was to throw out of the debate anyone who wasn’t rich enough…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Clodius_Pulcher
  • Russia still want the $10 Trillon worth of precious metals under the ground in Ukraine. Crimea was a oil and gas grab. This is a metal one.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293
    kle4 said:

    To aspiring young Britons, who will be out next Joseph Bazalgette?

    We have people able to do this stuff;

    https://tideway.london/the-tunnel

    (I took a school trip to one of the holes about a decade ago, while it was still being built. One one hand, I really know how to show people a good time, but it is a stunning bit of empty space.)

    What we don't neessarily have is the social will to permit these things to happen, either in terms of enduring disruption or stumping up the cash. After all, most of the benefits will go to people who haven't even been born yet.
  • Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    The American political system has many serious structural problems but maybe the biggest is its sheer cost - a point which is almost never addressed and taken by those there as simply a law of nature.

    If it costs hundreds of millions or billions to run for high office, you need to please those who donate. It's not a coincidence that the mega-wealthy have done very well out of DC in the last 30-40 years, while middle-class incomes have stagnated. A system that relies on the super-rich will not excessively cross their interests.

    But as so often, a skilled manipulator - which Trump is - can deflect the anger of the mob to an even more marginalised group, while maintaining a status quo that suits him very well.
    Read the history of the late Roman Republic. Which was carefully and explicitly run by the rich. The job of the Censors, for example, was to throw out of the debate anyone who wasn’t rich enough…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Clodius_Pulcher
    I completely agree with you.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,888
    kle4 said:

    To aspiring young Britons, who will be out next Joseph Bazalgette?

    I've got a couple of Institute of Civil Engineer hardback publications. One is 'The Contracrors' (1). Amongst other things, it gives some good potted biographies of some contractors, famous and less-famous.

    The thing is, we do have really good engineers and contractors in this country, but instead of individuals, they tend to be large organisations. An obvious modern parallel with Bazalgette is the recently-completed London super sewer (2), though there is no single person behind it.

    But some of those old names are still about: McAlpine is one example, as are Balfour Beatty (George Balfour; also a Conservative MP); and Kier (Olaf Kier).

    So IMO we will not get a 'next Joseph Bazalgette'.

    (1): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Contractors-Story-British-Civil-Engineering/dp/0727758306
    (2): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Tideway_Tunnel
  • Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    The American political system has many serious structural problems but maybe the biggest is its sheer cost - a point which is almost never addressed and taken by those there as simply a law of nature.

    If it costs hundreds of millions or billions to run for high office, you need to please those who donate. It's not a coincidence that the mega-wealthy have done very well out of DC in the last 30-40 years, while middle-class incomes have stagnated. A system that relies on the super-rich will not excessively cross their interests.

    But as so often, a skilled manipulator - which Trump is - can deflect the anger of the mob to an even more marginalised group, while maintaining a status quo that suits him very well.
    Read the history of the late Roman Republic. Which was carefully and explicitly run by the rich. The job of the Censors, for example, was to throw out of the debate anyone who wasn’t rich enough…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Clodius_Pulcher
    All correct!
  • Just partook in a YouGov poll of Tory members.

    One the supplementaties it asked me to define what One Nation Toryism means.

    I feel sorry for the YouGov person who has to read HYUFD's response to that question.

    I also had to say whether which Tory politicians were One Nation Tories or not.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 36,030
    Found the link

    Why Ex-Churchgoers Flocked to Trump
    This is a story about how the lack of faith, not factories, inspired a Middle American movement around one man.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/why-ex-churchgoers-flocked-to-trump/
  • Alphabet_SoupAlphabet_Soup Posts: 3,281
    Sean_F said:

    On the question about diverging male/female politics, weren't spme of the polls beginning to show some similar signs to the U.S., here , with men to the right and women to the left? At least I thought so.

    On toilets, although I like Leon's descriptions of.Japan, I'm not sure that the very German, Japanese or American concepts of cleanliness as always linked to civilisation.always hold water, so to speak. The French are both more civilised and less civilised than the Anglo-Saxon world, for instance, and tend to be a bit less bothered, on it.

    I remember once having lunch at a Parisian cafe, when a man came up, squatted down, and took a dump in the gutter, in front of me.
    He might have thought you were German.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Found the link

    Why Ex-Churchgoers Flocked to Trump
    This is a story about how the lack of faith, not factories, inspired a Middle American movement around one man.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/why-ex-churchgoers-flocked-to-trump/

    I believe this to be the case.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056
    viewcode said:

    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    nico679 said:

    And how exactly will Trumps policies help the alleged downtrodden of forgotten America ?

    I could understand Trumps support if he had any policies that would help the Average Joe . As it is Trump appeals to the “ its always someone else’s fault “ brigade .

    Aswell as the racists and migrant haters .

    Thankfully our politics here hasn’t descended to the level of hate and polarization seen in the USA and there are still lines that can’t be crossed if you want to get elected .

    They won’t help. But my gut tells me the momentum is now with him and he’s going to win this one. We should be buckling up for an interesting 4 years.

    European currencies the day of his victory will be interesting as they’ll tell us how seriously or otherwise the markets take his tariff threats. If he goes ahead with what he’s promised we’re talking global trade depression, given China’s economy is simultaneously buckling under.
    It’s worth noting that Biden has been pursuing a protectionist, tariff policy in various areas. To explicitly bring manufacturing back to the US.
    But notably not focused on Europe except in very narrow areas. It’s 90% China policy.
    Yup. And Trumpian voters are not worried about French Brie undermining their jobs.

    Biden’s project was to turn around the belief that outsourcing everything to China and Mexico was the way to go.

    On the left, this outsourcing is seen as part and parcel of financialisarion of companies.

    1) take over company
    2) outsource production/workforce
    3) sell the assets
    4) load up with debt

    The difference with Trump is the degree, and the stark violation of norms he proposes, to deal with the issue.

    These are the two of the reasons he gets votes.
    Speaking of selling England by the pound, we haven't talked about Palantir for a while:

    https://nitter.poast.org/JolyonMaugham/status/1847287463137382444#m
    https://nitter.poast.org/JolyonMaugham/status/1846906016081846365#m
    Politicians do not understand the value of data. They are extraordinarily cavalier about giving away what other countries pay millions of pounds for their spies to collect.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,327
    Leon said:

    kinabalu said:

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    Load of horseshit. Most of Trump's vote is not economically disadvantaged and most of the economically disadvantaged do not vote Trump.
    Ah, the Sage of Bruges. He speaks
    ... the truth (as per)
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056

    FF43 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kinabalu said:

    moonshine said:

    Trouble is, I never hear any serious analysis of why Trump might be doing so well in the USA other than Americans are a bit thick and stupid - which obviously isn't true - and is very patronising and an insult to our intelligence.

    We know why he shouldn't be doing so well, but he is.

    So, why?

    a. Major media sources pump out pro-Trump propaganda. It’s not that Americans are thick: Americans simply don’t get told the facts.

    b. Racism is popular.
    Hmmm. So your considered view is “ignorant and racist”. Got it. That worked so well in 2016 (in both the US and UK).
    Americans are just as intelligent as everyone else in the world, but you ignore that there is a pro-Trump media bubble. If that’s all you hear, you form a very different view of the world.

    Trump is racist. He is running a racist campaign. Pretending that’s not happening is just bizarre.
    Yep. And win or lose he'll get a big vote on Nov 5th for various reasons. To list a few:

    He's the GOP candidate. Loads of people always vote GOP.
    He's a skilful exploiter of ignorance and resentment.
    He's charismatic and has built a massive energetic loyal cult (MAGA).
    Most Americans don't feel better off despite what the stats say.

    It might be enough. I don't think so but my instincts could be wrong. Soon find out anyway.
    Trump is a warning to democracies everywhere of what you get if mainstream politicians ignore the legitimate concerns of a large segment of the population. Between 2000 and 2015 life was getting worse for a lot of Americans but almost the entire political class ignored it because it suited them to believe that because everything was going quite well for them it must also be going well for everyone else.
    I don't understand this much and casually repeated argument: The good guys are to blame for the bad guys being bad.
    I don’t think it necessarily means that.

    Economic prosperity both in the UK and US became segmented, especially in the last 2-3 decades

    I did very well. Pay rises, lots of work etc.

    At the same time a lot of people saw actual wage decreases. Many services and goods became cheaper as a result. For me and those like me - awesome.

    So carpeting a flat went from £1600 in 1998 to £700 (same flat) in 2019. Yay for me. For the people in the carpet business?

    People like me didn’t sit around a table planning to kick carpet fitters where it hurts. But they got hurt.
    Women working too have played their part. Working couples can invariably outbid single people for scarce resources like housing. On top of that is assortative mating so that instead of rich doctors marrying more humble nurses, or bosses marrying their secretaries, which churned the social classes, now doctors marry doctors and directors marry directors.
  • Scott_xP said:

    Found the link

    Why Ex-Churchgoers Flocked to Trump
    This is a story about how the lack of faith, not factories, inspired a Middle American movement around one man.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/why-ex-churchgoers-flocked-to-trump/

    Scott_xP said:

    Found the link

    Why Ex-Churchgoers Flocked to Trump
    This is a story about how the lack of faith, not factories, inspired a Middle American movement around one man.

    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/why-ex-churchgoers-flocked-to-trump/

    Yes, this is quite similar to what I was describing earlier. Trump has managed to appeal to a lot of rural and suburban voters who, while they might not always have had a textbook Bible-belt profile, want to believe in something mythic and good.

    The Democrats so far lack the emotional or cultural vocabulary, to.deal with this.
  • kle4 said:

    Sean_F said:

    On the question about diverging male/female politics, weren't spme of the polls beginning to show some similar signs to the U.S., here , with men to the right and women to the left? At least I thought so.

    On toilets, although I like Leon's descriptions of.Japan, I'm not sure that the very German, Japanese or American concepts of cleanliness as always linked to civilisation.always hold water, so to speak. The French are both more civilised and less civilised than the Anglo-Saxon world, for instance, and tend to be a bit less bothered, on it.

    I remember once having lunch at a Parisian cafe, when a man came up, squatted down, and took a dump in the gutter, in front of me.
    I apologise, I did not know my way around the city.
    Nature calls. No messing about then!
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    A South African colleague lamented it was the other way round. The best produce was exported and the second best sold at home.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,515

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    More like putting the old clothes in the charity box, before heading to Jermyn Street.
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    A South African colleague lamented it was the other way round. The best produce was exported and the second best sold at home.
    Well. I am no wine expert! I spent a month there in the past and the wine tasted a lot better than here! Others may disagree with me.
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    More like putting the old clothes in the charity box, before heading to Jermyn Street.
    Yes!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225

    kle4 said:

    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Japanese toilets should become the world standard. I realised that when I was in Tokyo for a few days in 2014.

    I've never experienced one, but clearly I have been missing out (I recall The Simpsons being impressed by them when they visited Japan too).

    The UK is in danger of visitors looking at our facilities like it's a Russian outhouse.
    Toilet/sanitation standards are an excellent measure of a civilisation’s standing and trajectory

    Eg we admire the Romans for their clever toilets and sewage systems (and central heating and baths etc)

    The West was once far ahead in all this. The British invented the flushing loo with u-bend. Since then we’ve, er, sat on our laurels and others have overtaken us and look askance on our facilities, and that speaks to a wider decline
    A 'How well did they clean up their shit?' index/thesis would make for an interesting read to assess cultures across history.

    Never forget even rich people used to have go in glorified buckets, and now look at us - so no one tell us the industrialisation of humanity and associated developments has been a bad thing!
    It could be a bestselling book entitled “What a load of old shit”.
    Now I think about it it seems like exactly the type of book someone like Simon Garfield would write, following his previous books on fonts, maps, and timepieces.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,056

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    A South African colleague lamented it was the other way round. The best produce was exported and the second best sold at home.
    Well. I am no wine expert! I spent a month there in the past and the wine tasted a lot better than here! Others may disagree with me.
    He was talking about South African food (and whatever else) in general, I think.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    boulay said:

    Sean_F said:

    On the question about diverging male/female politics, weren't spme of the polls beginning to show some similar signs to the U.S., here , with men to the right and women to the left? At least I thought so.

    On toilets, although I like Leon's descriptions of.Japan, I'm not sure that the very German, Japanese or American concepts of cleanliness as always linked to civilisation.always hold water, so to speak. The French are both more civilised and less civilised than the Anglo-Saxon world, for instance, and tend to be a bit less bothered, on it.

    I remember once having lunch at a Parisian cafe, when a man came up, squatted down, and took a dump in the gutter, in front of me.
    To be fair it is one of the reserved powers of the French President so Emmanuel was well within his rights.
    I think LBJ used to do a similar thing as a power move.

    Either that or being a groom of the stool was still seen as a prestigious position.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groom_of_the_Stool
  • ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    A South African colleague lamented it was the other way round. The best produce was exported and the second best sold at home.
    Well. I am no wine expert! I spent a month there in the past and the wine tasted a lot better than here! Others may disagree with me.
    He was talking about South African food (and whatever else) in general, I think.
    Fair enough. Great value when I went 18 years ago.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,405
    kle4 said:

    boulay said:

    Sean_F said:

    On the question about diverging male/female politics, weren't spme of the polls beginning to show some similar signs to the U.S., here , with men to the right and women to the left? At least I thought so.

    On toilets, although I like Leon's descriptions of.Japan, I'm not sure that the very German, Japanese or American concepts of cleanliness as always linked to civilisation.always hold water, so to speak. The French are both more civilised and less civilised than the Anglo-Saxon world, for instance, and tend to be a bit less bothered, on it.

    I remember once having lunch at a Parisian cafe, when a man came up, squatted down, and took a dump in the gutter, in front of me.
    To be fair it is one of the reserved powers of the French President so Emmanuel was well within his rights.
    I think LBJ used to do a similar thing as a power move.

    Either that or being a groom of the stool was still seen as a prestigious position.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groom_of_the_Stool
    Stalin, too.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,862
    Leon said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    I predict the Ukrainians will have another pop at Trump before November 5
    By Ukrainians what do you mean? Implies a possible state sponsored assassination.

    I agree with much of the article but I'm afraid it ignores, as so many in the west insist on doing, the extraordinary level of brainwashing of children that goes on in Gaza.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,327
    Leon said:

    kle4 said:

    RHunt said:

    Interesting. The democrats realise they have a problem.

    If Kamala loses, which is very possible, there needs to be a real discussion about how Democrats speak to and reach young men. There are very few straight men under 40 in the Democratic consultant class, so when ads try to reach young men, they come off deeply inauthentic.
    7:09 PM · Oct 18, 2024
    ·
    3.2M
    Views

    https://x.com/travishelwig/status/1847339192709222594

    There has definitely been an attempt by the Democrats. They aren't ignoring places like Wisconsin, Kamala has firmed up on issues like immigration, and tried to recover lost ground among latino voters etc.

    It may not work sufficiently, we shall see, but they have made some effort to repivot where they know they have lost some support. Young white men is probably an area which needs more time and effort to address.
    I wonder if the sudden pessimism amongst dems is justified?! The polls have only shifted a tad

    Harris has made several errors recently, the worst of which was that “let blacks be weed dealers” tweet. Unbelievably stupid. That might lose her the election. And the GOP cleverly dug up her old woke Columbus Day shite. That also harmed her

    However Trump is a very poor and increasingly deranged candidate. I’d still have Harris as favourite

    Maybe 62/38 percent so
    I'm still expecting her to win and probably they are too. But it does look close and I think the angst is because Trump back in the WH is a genuinely frightening prospect. When losing has such awful consequences you'd like to be well ahead in the polls this close to election day. That isn't the case.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,059
    edited October 19

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    A South African colleague lamented it was the other way round. The best produce was exported and the second best sold at home.
    Well. I am no wine expert! I spent a month there in the past and the wine tasted a lot better than here! Others may disagree with me.
    I agree, I’d say it’s the other way round. I’ve had far better SA wine in SA than the mediocre stuff that fills most of our wine shelves here. Whereas French wine in particular is roughly the same level of quality (and many of the same producers) in Britain as in France.

    I’d say Georgian wine that’s exported is generally at the upper end of what they make. But expensive as a result.
  • TimS said:

    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    I am against war. With regards to Ukraine and a Trump win. The arms industry along with the fossil fuels industries still have a great influence over the Republican party. They also donate to political campaigns. Trump will not stop arms being sent to Ukraine whatever he says as his sponsors earn from their weapon shipments being sent there. Apart from hot air I do not believe there will be any change to this policy.

    I might agree with you but he has been pretty firm on the matter, unusually so, and he does not have the same people around him as last time who tempered some of his less standard views. He's already successfully pushed most of the GOP who were hawkish on Ukraine to pull back or reverse course.
    Nah, the poster’s right.

    Trump will definitely keep shipping arms to the Ukraine war.

    The Russians need them too badly for him to not do so.
    More exactly, they will keep shipping the old, worn out stuff. Which then allows for the purchase of brand new stuff for the US military.

    The few M1 tanks sent to Ukraine, for example, caused a massive bump in contracts to the US tank building factory for building M1s to the latest standard. They aren’t going to Ukraine.
    Sounds like European wine producers keeping the best for themselves and sending us and other countries the duff stuff.
    A South African colleague lamented it was the other way round. The best produce was exported and the second best sold at home.
    Well. I am no wine expert! I spent a month there in the past and the wine tasted a lot better than here! Others may disagree with me.
    I agree, I’d say it’s the other way round. I’ve had far better SA wine in SA than the mediocre stuff that fills most of our wine shelves here. Whereas French wine in particular is roughly the same level of quality (and many of the same producers) in Britain as in France.
    I agree with you.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 13,059
    boulay said:

    Sean_F said:

    On the question about diverging male/female politics, weren't spme of the polls beginning to show some similar signs to the U.S., here , with men to the right and women to the left? At least I thought so.

    On toilets, although I like Leon's descriptions of.Japan, I'm not sure that the very German, Japanese or American concepts of cleanliness as always linked to civilisation.always hold water, so to speak. The French are both more civilised and less civilised than the Anglo-Saxon world, for instance, and tend to be a bit less bothered, on it.

    I remember once having lunch at a Parisian cafe, when a man came up, squatted down, and took a dump in the gutter, in front of me.
    To be fair it is one of the reserved powers of the French President so Emmanuel was well within his rights.
    It’s actually known as “slapping a retaliatory tariff on the Americans”. He’s readying himself for the next Trump presidency as we speak.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    Boak, BBC tv is doing ads/trailers for R4’s Today programme, lots of chummy chat with Nick and Justin and Emma. Makes me yearn for John Humphrys, words I thought I’d never write.

    ‘The conversation starts here.’

    I can give them a couple of words it might start with.
This discussion has been closed.