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A real boost for Trump – politicalbetting.com

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    MK is exactly how you should do it. Fast roads between communities, with grade-separated crossing paths for walkers and cyclists, what we now call LTNs inside the communities themselves, the central area being walkable but with plenty of parking around the outside.
  • MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    Exactly. Driving in Milton Keynes: great. Living in Milton Keynes: not so great.
  • MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,220
    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move of the sign further out is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down, or continue through the village (and it is through the village) at highway speeds.

    I'd say that 30mph is a sensible limit there IF the limit is obeyed, but it will be ignored - because that is seen as acceptable behaviour.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Bit in bold. The problem is, some people will obey a 20 limit and that annoys people.

    Stick a speed camera in there and people will do 30.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    edited August 22

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    I think it's my upbringing in an area that relies on cars that makes me value public transport, cycling and walking so much. Don't take it for granted, but also don't forget the experience of people in those rural areas that depends on them.

    The way we tax cars at the moment is deeply unfair and with VED coming to an end, and ongoing discussions around fuel duty, Labour have an opportunity to invert it.
  • BurgessianBurgessian Posts: 2,811

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    You very quickly get used to 20mph zones, we’ve had them here in suburban north London for years. Trust me.
    I rarely drive in London, but did have to pop down last week. Although it's as busy as it ever was, driving around the city seems a lot more relaxed with the 20 mph limits than it used to be back in the 80s, when I remember it as being quite manic.
    I remember driving round Milan in the 80s. Hmm. Not for the faint-hearted.

    Wonder if Meloni has gone for 20mph limit (or whatever it would be in Kms)? Betrayal of a vital part of Italian machismo culture, if so.
  • Eabhal said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    I think it's my upbringing in an area that relies on cars that makes me value public transport, cycling and walking so much. Don't take it for granted, but also don't forget the experience of people in those rural areas that depends on them.

    The way we tax cars at the moment is deeply unfair and with VED coming to an end, and ongoing discussions around fuel duty, Labour have an opportunity to invert it.
    Agreed completely, we should be completely slashing the cost of motoring which is far too high.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,901

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
    You'd force everyone into driving, all the time. Great. The segregated walking paths and cycle lanes are just for show then?
  • MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
    You'd force everyone into driving, all the time. Great. The segregated walking paths and cycle lanes are just for show then?
    I wouldn't force anyone into anything, there's choices available.

    You are free to make your own choices.

    Plenty of people do choose to use and enjoy using segregated cycle paths. If you don't like them, that's your choice not mine.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    Exactly. Driving in Milton Keynes: great. Living in Milton Keynes: not so great.
    I bought my last car from a MK industrial estate :D
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    edited August 22
    Milan is going to near-blanket 20mph limits next year. Edit - it might already have done so.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945
    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 22
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    I still maintain this road near me should be a 40 https://tinyurl.com/5n7f524t got done for doing 36 about 6 years back.
    One of the two flat roads in Sheffield? :smile:

    I don't understand people getting "caught out" if they have gone past a 30 sign, either at the side or on the road - or in my case when the 30 sign is displayed on the dash as a further reminder.

    (What I want is a bleeper that responds to detecting going over the speed limit, rather than over my preset value.)

    But that's another one where "felt appropriate" speed for those who do not bother to keep and eye out does not match the posted limit.

    Given that it's a flat road with a 17-18m corridor and a 11-12m carriageway, I'd put it on a road diet and add a two way mobility track one side, and perhaps some parking and trees. It could be a valuable aterial route from Sheffield to Rotherham for cycles and mobility aids (I'm sure I've seen some debate about that proposal.)

    BTW why is the bus stop painted about 6 ft out from the kerb here?

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4034794,-1.4367729,3a,75y,209.49h,60.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHqGW2_x9CuufXPHP0tmwqw!2e0!5s20230601T000000!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    No US tanks in Baghdad.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,901

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
    You'd force everyone into driving, all the time. Great. The segregated walking paths and cycle lanes are just for show then?
    I wouldn't force anyone into anything, there's choices available.

    You are free to make your own choices.

    Plenty of people do choose to use and enjoy using segregated cycle paths. If you don't like them, that's your choice not mine.
    One of the problems with the approach in Milton Keynes is that the cyclists and pedestrians are thrown into a completely separate network, and so don't have the visual cues they would have from being beside/on the road to be able to navigate.

    This isn't about personal choice, it simply doesn't work for cyclists and pedestrians in a town/city centre. (A completely separate route is fine for long distance routes)

    I find your position on this really bizarre and doctrinaire. Your completely unable and unwilling to consider alternate points of view.
  • Scott_xP said:

    @tompeck

    If Keir Starmer resigns today he will be the UK's shortest ever serving Prime Minister. If he makes it through to Saturday it will still be Liz Truss.

    BJO: So you're saying there's a chance?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,142
    Driver said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    I still maintain this road near me should be a 40 https://tinyurl.com/5n7f524t got done for doing 36 about 6 years back.
    Here's a road that my local council thinks should be a 20:
    The fact that as flat footed a government as the Welsh Sennedd is u-turning on this might give some of the anti-car brigade pause for thought.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Eabhal said:

    Milan is going to near-blanket 20mph limits next year. Edit - it might already have done so.

    30kph limits are quite commonplace in French and Italian towns now, I have noticed on my recent driving tours.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
    You'd force everyone into driving, all the time. Great. The segregated walking paths and cycle lanes are just for show then?
    I wouldn't force anyone into anything, there's choices available.

    You are free to make your own choices.

    Plenty of people do choose to use and enjoy using segregated cycle paths. If you don't like them, that's your choice not mine.
    Overwhelmingly in this country choices are *not* available, which is a large part of the problem. That's why I usually argue from an equality viewpoint commenting on schemes.

    It's also a significant part of the reason why elderly people with failing eyesight can feel a need to lie to the DVLA to keep their driving licences; they feel they have no alternative.

    That can be seen in stats around, for example, why people do not walk, wheel or cycle, or feel they have no option but to drive their children to school.

    It is also visible in the modal shares where infrastructure is built and choice does become possible.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    The problem Milton Keynes had - at least historically - was that because pedestrian routes were separated from roads, they became dangerous late at night. Muggers knew that their antics weren't going to be illuminated by passing motor vehicles, they could safely rob people.

    (Disclaimer: this was a historic issue, and may have been solved.)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
    For all those of us who travel by train/bus/taxi, my abiding memories of Milton Keynes station is i) nowhere to get food/a hot drink late at night at/near the station, ii) the station platforms don't have enough rain cover, and iii) tent tramps outside the station entrance.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 22
    MattW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    I still maintain this road near me should be a 40 https://tinyurl.com/5n7f524t got done for doing 36 about 6 years back.
    One of the two flat roads in Sheffield? :smile:

    I don't understand people getting "caught out" if they have gone past a 30 sign, either at the side or on the road - or in my case when the 30 sign is displayed on the dash as a further reminder.

    (What I want is a bleeper that responds to detecting going over the speed limit, rather than over my preset value.)

    But that's another one where "felt appropriate" speed for those who do not bother to keep and eye out does not match the posted limit.

    Given that it's a flat road with a 17-18m corridor and a 11-12m carriageway, I'd put it on a road diet and add a two way mobility track one side, and perhaps some parking and trees. It could be a valuable aterial route from Sheffield to Rotherham for cycles and mobility aids (I'm sure I've seen some debate about that proposal.)

    BTW why is the bus stop painted about 6 ft out from the kerb here?

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4034794,-1.4367729,3a,75y,209.49h,60.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHqGW2_x9CuufXPHP0tmwqw!2e0!5s20230601T000000!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Typos aterial/arterial and keep and eye out/an eye out. Apologies to pendants.
  • twistedfirestopper3twistedfirestopper3 Posts: 2,452
    edited August 22
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
    You'd force everyone into driving, all the time. Great. The segregated walking paths and cycle lanes are just for show then?
    I wouldn't force anyone into anything, there's choices available.

    You are free to make your own choices.

    Plenty of people do choose to use and enjoy using segregated cycle paths. If you don't like them, that's your choice not mine.
    Overwhelmingly in this country choices are *not* available, which is a large part of the problem. That's why I usually argue from an equality viewpoint commenting on schemes.

    It's also a significant part of the reason why elderly people with failing eyesight can feel a need to lie to the DVLA to keep their driving licences; they feel they have no alternative.

    That can be seen in stats around, for example, why people do not walk, wheel or cycle, or feel they have no option but to drive their children to school.

    It is also visible in the modal shares where infrastructure is built and choice does become possible.
    Simon Richardson on GCN does a lot of interesting vids on urban cycling.

    https://youtu.be/-_4GZnGl55c?si=soK8R9mzfxkMHK-d
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    You very quickly get used to 20mph zones, we’ve had them here in suburban north London for years. Trust me.
    I rarely drive in London, but did have to pop down last week. Although it's as busy as it ever was, driving around the city seems a lot more relaxed with the 20 mph limits than it used to be back in the 80s, when I remember it as being quite manic.
    I remember driving round Milan in the 80s. Hmm. Not for the faint-hearted.

    Wonder if Meloni has gone for 20mph limit (or whatever it would be in Kms)? Betrayal of a vital part of Italian machismo culture, if so.
    Meloni is against it, but Italian cities (like Milan) led by the centre-left are indeed introducing varying amounts of 30kmh zones - Bologna has a general 30kmh limit.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,935
    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    The tin-foil hat brigade prick up their ears...

    "SO - it must have been scuttled!"
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,122
    MattW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    I still maintain this road near me should be a 40 https://tinyurl.com/5n7f524t got done for doing 36 about 6 years back.
    One of the two flat roads in Sheffield? :smile:

    I don't understand people getting "caught out" if they have gone past a 30 sign, either at the side or on the road - or in my case when the 30 sign is displayed on the dash as a further reminder.

    (What I want is a bleeper that responds to detecting going over the speed limit, rather than over my preset value.)

    But that's another one where "felt appropriate" speed for those who do not bother to keep and eye out does not match the posted limit.

    Given that it's a flat road with a 17-18m corridor and a 11-12m carriageway, I'd put it on a road diet and add a two way mobility track one side, and perhaps some parking and trees. It could be a valuable aterial route from Sheffield to Rotherham for cycles and mobility aids (I'm sure I've seen some debate about that proposal.)

    BTW why is the bus stop painted about 6 ft out from the kerb here?

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.4034794,-1.4367729,3a,75y,209.49h,60.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sHqGW2_x9CuufXPHP0tmwqw!2e0!5s20230601T000000!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu
    My Honda has an intelligent speed limiter that detects the speed limit pretty accurately, it beeps if you get to an area where a reduced speed limit until you are below it again. It's very useful when driving in unfamiliar places where limits keep changing, such as London.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,766
    Sandpit said:


    Toyota, on the other hand, are over the moon with their primarily hybrid strategy, which is now really paying off for them in markets that haven’t yet fully developed electric infrastructure.

    Toyota were caught on the wrong side of the electrification wave by sticking with their FCEV bollocks for too long. Now they have, rather cleverly, not let a good crisis go to waste and have obviously decided to be the last one standing in the ICE business as it was impossible to be a first mover in BEVs.

    Tesla look like they are heading into choppy waters. The Proud Boy Tony Stark is killing the brand by association and the tier one OEMs are finally bringing out superior products. A290, Ioniq 5N, etc. Their product pipeline is stale and just moves far too slowly.
  • MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    When I visited Milton Keynes I didn't drive - I think that's the key difference.

    Not sure why you would call that prejudiced?

    I'm driving most days now because I'm living in a rural area. Cars are great. I'm not prejudiced against them. There simply isn't room for them in urban areas. So the only tricky thing is managing the transition between rural area and urban area.
    There is room for cars in urban areas. Milton Keynes manages it well.

    Maybe next time you go to Milton Keynes you should drive, maybe that'll improve your view and you'll find it less hellish.
    You'd force everyone into driving, all the time. Great. The segregated walking paths and cycle lanes are just for show then?
    I wouldn't force anyone into anything, there's choices available.

    You are free to make your own choices.

    Plenty of people do choose to use and enjoy using segregated cycle paths. If you don't like them, that's your choice not mine.
    One of the problems with the approach in Milton Keynes is that the cyclists and pedestrians are thrown into a completely separate network, and so don't have the visual cues they would have from being beside/on the road to be able to navigate.

    This isn't about personal choice, it simply doesn't work for cyclists and pedestrians in a town/city centre. (A completely separate route is fine for long distance routes)

    I find your position on this really bizarre and doctrinaire. Your completely unable and unwilling to consider alternate points of view.
    Not remotely, if that's your issue then what's wrong with addressing it by giving more visual clues for the cycle network?

    Having a different point of view is not the same as being unwilling to consider it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,608
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:


    Toyota, on the other hand, are over the moon with their primarily hybrid strategy, which is now really paying off for them in markets that haven’t yet fully developed electric infrastructure.

    Toyota were caught on the wrong side of the electrification wave by sticking with their FCEV bollocks for too long. Now they have, rather cleverly, not let a good crisis go to waste and have obviously decided to be the last one standing in the ICE business as it was impossible to be a first mover in BEVs.

    Tesla look like they are heading into choppy waters. The Proud Boy Tony Stark is killing the brand by association and the tier one OEMs are finally bringing out superior products. A290, Ioniq 5N, etc. Their product pipeline is stale and just moves far too slowly.
    The Ioniq is the first non-Tesla mass market vehicle I'd buy. (My Rivian isn't really mass market.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,122
    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    I think the evidence is to the contrary.

    As its in just 50m of water the investigation should be quite straightforward.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    Eabhal said:

    Milan is going to near-blanket 20mph limits next year. Edit - it might already have done so.

    Not true.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,997
    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    Well it currently looks about as unsinkable as the Titanic.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    kamski said:

    Eabhal said:

    Milan is going to near-blanket 20mph limits next year. Edit - it might already have done so.

    Not true.
    Oh really? I can't see anything online about a reversal.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,089
    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    I am not quite sure how to express my view of that.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,434
    Eabhal said:

    kamski said:

    Eabhal said:

    Milan is going to near-blanket 20mph limits next year. Edit - it might already have done so.

    Not true.
    Oh really? I can't see anything online about a reversal.
    https://www.euronews.com/green/2024/01/19/planet-friendly-or-commuter-nightmare-bolognas-30kmh-speed-limit-sparks-protests says Milan (and Parma) are considering bringing in 30kph limits this year.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,447
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    I think the evidence is to the contrary.

    As its in just 50m of water the investigation should be quite straightforward.
    Well, it didn't sink very far.
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,030
    rcs1000 said:

    MattW said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    Those are the closest places we have, including where there are businesses etc, to the horrible freeways-through-town in the USA known as stroads.

    For those, 30mph is the max which is realistic, I think. For an example, consider the A6 going into Leicester through Oadby. Anything with a limit of >30mph requires separated mobility infrastructure per national guidelines, for safety reasons.

    (Major highways which have been cut through urban areas with no junctions or buildings on them, such as motorways in Greater Manchester, for example, are a different case I suggest.)
    40 or 50 and separated mobility infrastructure works quite well. What's wrong with that exactly?

    As too does having 40-50mph through roads with junctions or roundabouts leading to local roads, which is a very British solution not an American one.
    It sounds fine in practice, but whenever I've visited somewhere which has that sort of rigid segregation between cycle/pedestrian routes and cars, such as Milton Keynes, the outcome is something hellish.

    Designing urban areas to accommodate cars doesn't work. I can't think of a single town or city I've been where designing around the needs of cars leads to a positive outcome. But I can think of lots of urban centres where cars are mostly excluded that are delightful.
    I think that's letting your own prejudices shine through.

    I used to travel regularly to Milton Keynes and always found it very pleasant, not remotely hellish. I'd rather drive in Milton Keynes than London that's for sure.
    The problem Milton Keynes had - at least historically - was that because pedestrian routes were separated from roads, they became dangerous late at night. Muggers knew that their antics weren't going to be illuminated by passing motor vehicles, they could safely rob people.

    (Disclaimer: this was a historic issue, and may have been solved.)
    OTOH, those underpasses seem to work really well for those Starship delivery robots.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,208
    Eabhal said:

    kamski said:

    Eabhal said:

    Milan is going to near-blanket 20mph limits next year. Edit - it might already have done so.

    Not true.
    Oh really? I can't see anything online about a reversal.
    I'll see if I can find something, but according to people actually living in Milan so far only a handful of streets have been made 30kmh, and the latest plan is to have streets going past schools 30kmh. This may or may not be a first stop towards a general 30kmh limit.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334

    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    I am not quite sure how to express my view of that.
    TRanslation issue? Hard to tell if he was using English - the wording is a bit stilted. It would be dodgy quoting him in quotation marks if he was speaking in Italian.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,089
    Carnyx said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    I am not quite sure how to express my view of that.
    TRanslation issue? Hard to tell if he was using English - the wording is a bit stilted. It would be dodgy quoting him in quotation marks if he was speaking in Italian.
    Got it

    image
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,053

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move of the sign further out is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down, or continue through the village (and it is through the village) at highway speeds.

    I'd say that 30mph is a sensible limit there IF the limit is obeyed, but it will be ignored - because that is seen as acceptable behaviour.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Bit in bold. The problem is, some people will obey a 20 limit and that annoys people.

    Stick a speed camera in there and people will do 30.
    I've been teaching my step-daughter to drive recently, and it is very noticeable that some people simply cannot stand to drive at the speed limit. My step-daughter obviously has to learn to drive at or just below the speed limit (since she'd otherwise fail her driving test), but whatever the speed limit, there's always some bozo behind who just has to get past and will drive right on our tail before overtaking at the next (barely) possible opportunity.

    And while I'm on the topic, I've seen some of the worst driving about while teaching her to drive. The L-plates seem like a red rag to a bull for some people. They think nothing of driving right on your tail, or cutting straight across in front of you. And if a learner has stalled their car on a hill in front of you, sitting two inches behind their bumper and leaning on your horn isn't going to help them get going any faster!
    People are bullying arseholes, especially when they feel safe from confrontation, such as in their car, or behind the boss’s desk.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,379

    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    He'll need to update his priors.
    Indeed. His is a frequentist approach based on out-of-date data, :)
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,089

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move of the sign further out is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down, or continue through the village (and it is through the village) at highway speeds.

    I'd say that 30mph is a sensible limit there IF the limit is obeyed, but it will be ignored - because that is seen as acceptable behaviour.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Bit in bold. The problem is, some people will obey a 20 limit and that annoys people.

    Stick a speed camera in there and people will do 30.
    I've been teaching my step-daughter to drive recently, and it is very noticeable that some people simply cannot stand to drive at the speed limit. My step-daughter obviously has to learn to drive at or just below the speed limit (since she'd otherwise fail her driving test), but whatever the speed limit, there's always some bozo behind who just has to get past and will drive right on our tail before overtaking at the next (barely) possible opportunity.

    And while I'm on the topic, I've seen some of the worst driving about while teaching her to drive. The L-plates seem like a red rag to a bull for some people. They think nothing of driving right on your tail, or cutting straight across in front of you. And if a learner has stalled their car on a hill in front of you, sitting two inches behind their bumper and leaning on your horn isn't going to help them get going any faster!
    People are bullying arseholes, especially when they feel safe from confrontation, such as in their car, or behind the boss’s desk.
    My driving instructor liked my approach to people hammering the horn when I was doing 20.

    I would, almost instinctively, slow down by about 1 mph, each time they sounded the horn.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 22

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:



    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Nope. It's just Denbigh and Flint have been apathetic about doing a proper in-depth study of speed limits, unlike say Gwynedd.

    The reaction I'm seeing suggests this is pissing locals off more than tourists.
    Hang on - there are very few restricted roads in the north-east of Wales, and even those have plenty of exceptions to the 20mph rule. By this mapping, it's probably the least impacted part of Wales: https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/

    Compare and contrast to somewhere like Edinburgh, where almost everything inside the bypass is 20mph or moving towards it.
    That map isn't correct. Of the 20mph zones I've been driving through, it's got Ruthin and Llanfiar MG but not Cerrigydrudion or Pwllglas.

    Edit - on a double check, not Llanfair either
    That would suggest they were 20mph limits already.
    It might, but the signs all appear to be new. They might, of course, have been renewed at the same time, or only have been introduced just before. But if the latter, we're splitting hairs about the ubiquity of them.

    Edit - I'm remembering that article you sent me by mistake for something else, about how important it was when changing speed limits to prepare the ground carefully and make sure everyone had bought into and understood the changes. The reaction I'm seeing here suggests that just hasn't happened. But equally, I seem to remember that wasn't a point of dispute.
    I'm suggesting that much of the opposition to 20mph limits in Wales is based on false information. Indeed, what BigG describes as the perfect suite of speed limits is in effect what the Welsh government has introduced, given the very large number of existing exceptions (and perhaps more after the consultation).

    Indeed, you've just demonstrated that a number of the limits were already in place, but are being falsely attributed to the new scheme. You can't cater for that kind of misinformation, and you either rely on your democratic mandate and tough it out, or capitulate.
    Good morning

    I would suggest you have no idea about the actual position in Wales both in public opinion which indicates 70% opposition to the way the scheme has been implemented from those actually living and driving in Wales, and you seem to ignore that the Welsh government itself concedes it is to change

    You can go from 20mph to 30 mph to 40 mph back to 20mph over the Little Orme in a distance less than three quarters of a mie when the previous speed limit was 30 mph and 40mph

    Look at the maps from Edinburgh as much as you want but that is not what is the experience nor is it some conspiracy theory that it is based on misinformation

    Frankly the issue has been widely discussed in Wales by those living in Wales and the government have listened so little point in arguing an issue that the Welsh have dealt with
    Hello BigG , hope you are well. We see yet again these anti - car nutters desperate to stop people being able to get around whilst they live in large cities and even different countries, they spout crap about using bikes and public transport. Bet they are worst polluters to boot as they fly off to the sun etc.
    Morning Malc - thank you and considering my health issues I am very grateful to be plodding along

    The argument over Wales 20mph zones has been widely discussed in Wales and recognised by the Welsh government it was not implemented properly and changes are being made

    The conspiracy theory of misinformation is not valid as it is the day to day experience of Welsh drivers that has led to the changes accepted across the political divide and it has to be said nobody objects to 20mph zones near schools, hospitals, and villages

    It is interesting that Starmer has avoided the same error by Drakeford and not mandating it for England from central government but leaving it to local councils to decide where these measures are best applied

    I would just say about cycling there are many cycle paths now already separating them from road users, but in our area there are not a large number of cyclists on the roads anyway
    Morning @Big_G_NorthWales (and everyone). Pleased that you are plodding along.

    I'm interested in how you characterise the changes in the 20mph default limit initiative.

    To me - and I've followed it though I'm not in Wales very often - the scheme introduced already has making-appropriate-exceptions as a feature already, and was a manifesto commitment for parties that received half of the vote.

    So what they are doing is wait-and-see what Highways Authorities choose to do with the power to make exceptions, and they will be guided by data as it emerges, as well as local attitudes.

    Politically I think that Reform Wales (what are they called?) in particular will try and use this as a wedge issue as their stuff about riots and the Two Tier Kier trope etc loses traction, as they go after the not-insubstantial former UKIP vote and Conservative vote in Wales. Lee Anderson has been noisy about their first Welsh Councillors.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701

    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    I am not quite sure how to express my view of that.
    Has something been Lost in Translation?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    .

    malcolmg said:

    Good morning, everyone.

    Fresh from throwing money at the public sector wage bill, Labour seem to be continuing their cliche pattern with a planned windfall tax: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cje2ynege5zo

    How's that focus on growth working out, between the windfall tax and cutting investment to fling cash at the unions?

    You don't want people to be paid a decent wage for doing the jobs you don't want (or can't) do?
    Why?
    Train drivers and Doctor's are among the highest paid in the country already, what do you count as a decent wage £150K
    Malc, PB Tories get the shits if a public sector worker gets a payrise, but feel a warm glow if Serco get their bin collection contract renewed. You're better than that, mate.
    TFS, I do agree on Tories , but Labour are looking like they are just as hopeless. Them forking out in self interest is no better than the Tories. No problem when it is not their money they are hosing out. I hav elittle time for either of them , cheeks of the same arse with more faces than the town clock.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    Sandpit said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Vessels like Mike Lynch's stricken superyacht are "unsinkable", according to the chief executive of the firm which makes and sells them.

    Giovanni Costantino, CEO of The Italian Sea Group, told Sky News there are no flaws with the design and construction of the Bayesian superyacht which capsized in a storm off the coast of Porticello, Sicily, on Monday."

    https://news.sky.com/story/sailing-yachts-like-mike-lynchs-are-unsinkable-bodies-ceo-of-boat-manufacturing-firm-says-13200883

    Well it currently looks about as unsinkable as the Titanic.
    Both the Bayesian and the Titanic are presently unsinkable, to be fair
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,865
    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496

    malcolmg said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:



    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Nope. It's just Denbigh and Flint have been apathetic about doing a proper in-depth study of speed limits, unlike say Gwynedd.

    The reaction I'm seeing suggests this is pissing locals off more than tourists.
    Hang on - there are very few restricted roads in the north-east of Wales, and even those have plenty of exceptions to the 20mph rule. By this mapping, it's probably the least impacted part of Wales: https://datamap.gov.wales/maps/roads-affected-by-changes-to-the-speed-limit-on-re/view#/

    Compare and contrast to somewhere like Edinburgh, where almost everything inside the bypass is 20mph or moving towards it.
    That map isn't correct. Of the 20mph zones I've been driving through, it's got Ruthin and Llanfiar MG but not Cerrigydrudion or Pwllglas.

    Edit - on a double check, not Llanfair either
    That would suggest they were 20mph limits already.
    It might, but the signs all appear to be new. They might, of course, have been renewed at the same time, or only have been introduced just before. But if the latter, we're splitting hairs about the ubiquity of them.

    Edit - I'm remembering that article you sent me by mistake for something else, about how important it was when changing speed limits to prepare the ground carefully and make sure everyone had bought into and understood the changes. The reaction I'm seeing here suggests that just hasn't happened. But equally, I seem to remember that wasn't a point of dispute.
    I'm suggesting that much of the opposition to 20mph limits in Wales is based on false information. Indeed, what BigG describes as the perfect suite of speed limits is in effect what the Welsh government has introduced, given the very large number of existing exceptions (and perhaps more after the consultation).

    Indeed, you've just demonstrated that a number of the limits were already in place, but are being falsely attributed to the new scheme. You can't cater for that kind of misinformation, and you either rely on your democratic mandate and tough it out, or capitulate.
    Good morning

    I would suggest you have no idea about the actual position in Wales both in public opinion which indicates 70% opposition to the way the scheme has been implemented from those actually living and driving in Wales, and you seem to ignore that the Welsh government itself concedes it is to change

    You can go from 20mph to 30 mph to 40 mph back to 20mph over the Little Orme in a distance less than three quarters of a mie when the previous speed limit was 30 mph and 40mph

    Look at the maps from Edinburgh as much as you want but that is not what is the experience nor is it some conspiracy theory that it is based on misinformation

    Frankly the issue has been widely discussed in Wales by those living in Wales and the government have listened so little point in arguing an issue that the Welsh have dealt with
    Hello BigG , hope you are well. We see yet again these anti - car nutters desperate to stop people being able to get around whilst they live in large cities and even different countries, they spout crap about using bikes and public transport. Bet they are worst polluters to boot as they fly off to the sun etc.
    Morning Malc - thank you and considering my health issues I am very grateful to be plodding along

    The argument over Wales 20mph zones has been widely discussed in Wales and recognised by the Welsh government it was not implemented properly and changes are being made

    The conspiracy theory of misinformation is not valid as it is the day to day experience of Welsh drivers that has led to the changes accepted across the political divide and it has to be said nobody objects to 20mph zones near schools, hospitals, and villages

    It is interesting that Starmer has avoided the same error by Drakeford and not mandating it for England from central government but leaving it to local councils to decide where these measures are best applied

    I would just say about cycling there are many cycle paths now already separating them from road users, but in our area there are not a large number of cyclists on the roads anyway
    If they get the chance no doubt SNP would implement willy nilly.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,122

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move of the sign further out is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down, or continue through the village (and it is through the village) at highway speeds.

    I'd say that 30mph is a sensible limit there IF the limit is obeyed, but it will be ignored - because that is seen as acceptable behaviour.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Bit in bold. The problem is, some people will obey a 20 limit and that annoys people.

    Stick a speed camera in there and people will do 30.
    I've been teaching my step-daughter to drive recently, and it is very noticeable that some people simply cannot stand to drive at the speed limit. My step-daughter obviously has to learn to drive at or just below the speed limit (since she'd otherwise fail her driving test), but whatever the speed limit, there's always some bozo behind who just has to get past and will drive right on our tail before overtaking at the next (barely) possible opportunity.

    And while I'm on the topic, I've seen some of the worst driving about while teaching her to drive. The L-plates seem like a red rag to a bull for some people. They think nothing of driving right on your tail, or cutting straight across in front of you. And if a learner has stalled their car on a hill in front of you, sitting two inches behind their bumper and leaning on your horn isn't going to help them get going any faster!
    People are bullying arseholes, especially when they feel safe from confrontation, such as in their car, or behind the boss’s desk.
    My driving instructor liked my approach to people hammering the horn when I was doing 20.

    I would, almost instinctively, slow down by about 1 mph, each time they sounded the horn.
    I let them pass.

    As a general rule I like dangerous idiots in front of me so I can watch them, rather than behind me where they are likely to rear-end me.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890
    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    I'll be taking that one to the ECHR on the grounds of age discrimination.
  • .

    DavidL said:

    kinabalu said:

    Well Happy Birthday to me and a big one too. So big the Beatles wrote a song about it. Bringing the cat in, taking my statin ... when I'm 64.

    The slightly disconcerting thing about that whimsical song is that they clearly think 64 is really old.

    The same problem arises in Lukas Graham's 7 years, an otherwise good song:

    Soon, I'll be 60 years old, my daddy got 61
    Remember life and then your life becomes a better one
    I made the man so happy when I wrote a letter once
    I hope my children come and visit, once or twice a month

    Soon, I'll be 60 years old, will I think the world is cold?
    Or will I have a lot of children who can warm me?

    As someone who is 63 very soon this is not how I see my world. Hope you don't either and have an exciting day.
    If you've reasonable health, the years between 60 and 80 are pretty good. All sorts of things you can do, clubs, societies, activities. And, again an assumption, if you've got enough money .... not a lot ..... but enough to mean you're warm, well fed and watered, and, if you want to, travel a bit, life can be good.
    More years in our life and more life in our years are what me and the Mrs are working towards!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,832
    "First drug to slow Alzheimer's too costly for NHS" - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c75nry66y52o

    Not great headline - many more costly drugs are approved by NICE. The issue is that the benefits are judged not to justify the cost. May also not be the end of the issue as it's not unknown for further negotiations after such a decision to find a price at which it is cost effective (although that will depend on whether the maker thinks there's more money in keeping the price higher elsewhere).

    I have some personal interest in this, having a parent with diagnosed (mixed vascular and) Alzheimer's dementia. However, I think she's too far progressed for this and is ruled out on other health grounds/medications anyway.
  • HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    Not happening. Ageism.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Beyond the entrance to the estate? That's absurd, why should the main road outside the estate be a 20?

    Inside the estate, sure, drive slowly on residential streets. But if you're driving past and not on the estate? Then keep driving past it.

    Your whole argument for LTNs and one I can respect and agree with is it separates the residential from the traffic, but that becomes moot if you're making the main road be classed the same as the estate, its not.
    Note I said I think 30mph would be appropriate there for the main road, not 20mph. I'd have left the limit at 30 and moved it further out of the village as the built-up zone expands.

    (Aside: I didn't mention LTNs, though you are correct about my view. BTW LHA is Local Highways Authority - sorry, should have mentioned.)

    The entrance to the estate is better into a 30mph limit on the major road rather than a 60mph because there will be something like 2-4 turning manoeuvres per day per household into and out of that estate road (standard road design assumption), and we know that junctions are where most collisions happen, and that they are significantly more dangerous into higher speed than lower speed major roads.

    That's established design practise for safety, and reduced speed limits near junctions are a routine practise by Highways Authorities.

    So extending the lower speed limit to beyond the entrance from the estate seems sensible.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701
    edited August 22
    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    That would be great. One of my grandchildren, having just got his degree, wants to see a bit of the world before settling down, and at time of writing is planning to go to Australia for a year or so. That seems, apparently, his nearest practical option. He doesn't fancy N. America.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    I'll be taking that one to the ECHR on the grounds of age discrimination.
    Maybe we should take Brexit as a whole to the ECHR on the grounds of age discrimination
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704
    Given the hurdles my son is trying to jump over to study abroad for one year (eg certified translation of crb checks) this cannot come soon enough.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 22

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move of the sign further out is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down, or continue through the village (and it is through the village) at highway speeds.

    I'd say that 30mph is a sensible limit there IF the limit is obeyed, but it will be ignored - because that is seen as acceptable behaviour.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Bit in bold. The problem is, some people will obey a 20 limit and that annoys people.

    Stick a speed camera in there and people will do 30.
    I've been teaching my step-daughter to drive recently, and it is very noticeable that some people simply cannot stand to drive at the speed limit. My step-daughter obviously has to learn to drive at or just below the speed limit (since she'd otherwise fail her driving test), but whatever the speed limit, there's always some bozo behind who just has to get past and will drive right on our tail before overtaking at the next (barely) possible opportunity.

    And while I'm on the topic, I've seen some of the worst driving about while teaching her to drive. The L-plates seem like a red rag to a bull for some people. They think nothing of driving right on your tail, or cutting straight across in front of you. And if a learner has stalled their car on a hill in front of you, sitting two inches behind their bumper and leaning on your horn isn't going to help them get going any faster!
    I hope she does well.

    Can I recommend the Ashley Neal Youtube channel, which is very good because he spends much time reviewing particular situations and reflecting on what could have been done better - and he is an Instruct the Instructors Instructor (so to speak). And the comments section is quite knowledgeable and civilised.

    It's great for learners, as she will get extra perspectives over your own (and we all have blind spots).

    https://www.youtube.com/@ashley_neal/videos

    I identify with the "learners get bullied by MGIFers" comment. Around here I see in media reports too many inexperienced drivers (say <5 years) driving to the speed limit not the conditions - we have a lot of dips and hollows in Notts / Derbys which have moisture and ice and they go in at near the limit, and lose control. When I was 17 and 8 months, I spun the family car off a just-about-frozen roundabout, which did not make me popular.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,406
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move of the sign further out is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down, or continue through the village (and it is through the village) at highway speeds.

    I'd say that 30mph is a sensible limit there IF the limit is obeyed, but it will be ignored - because that is seen as acceptable behaviour.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Bit in bold. The problem is, some people will obey a 20 limit and that annoys people.

    Stick a speed camera in there and people will do 30.
    I've been teaching my step-daughter to drive recently, and it is very noticeable that some people simply cannot stand to drive at the speed limit. My step-daughter obviously has to learn to drive at or just below the speed limit (since she'd otherwise fail her driving test), but whatever the speed limit, there's always some bozo behind who just has to get past and will drive right on our tail before overtaking at the next (barely) possible opportunity.

    And while I'm on the topic, I've seen some of the worst driving about while teaching her to drive. The L-plates seem like a red rag to a bull for some people. They think nothing of driving right on your tail, or cutting straight across in front of you. And if a learner has stalled their car on a hill in front of you, sitting two inches behind their bumper and leaning on your horn isn't going to help them get going any faster!
    People are bullying arseholes, especially when they feel safe from confrontation, such as in their car, or behind the boss’s desk.
    My driving instructor liked my approach to people hammering the horn when I was doing 20.

    I would, almost instinctively, slow down by about 1 mph, each time they sounded the horn.
    I let them pass.

    As a general rule I like dangerous idiots in front of me so I can watch them, rather than behind me where they are likely to rear-end me.
    Letting people in is the best way to drive even if they're in the wrong.

    The flipside is using the invariably empty lane for a road merger, don't be the arsehole hanging wheels over the white line to "block" people coming up the other lane in some sort of weird non highway code compliant moral queueing protocol.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,890

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    Imagine if they had offered some similar constructive ideas to Cameron BEFORE the referendum happened...
    We would still have left. It was in the stars.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    That would be great. One of my grandchildren, having just got his degree, wants to see a bit of the world before settling down, and at time of writing is planning to go to Australia for a year or so. That seems, apparently, his nearest practical option. He doesn't fancy N. America.
    I know I keep banging on about this - but for 95% of us, a country which speaks the same language is a far more practical option for living/working abroad than a country which happens to be close.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,704

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    Imagine if they had offered some similar constructive ideas to Cameron BEFORE the referendum happened...
    Cameron screwed up.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move of the sign further out is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down, or continue through the village (and it is through the village) at highway speeds.

    I'd say that 30mph is a sensible limit there IF the limit is obeyed, but it will be ignored - because that is seen as acceptable behaviour.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Bit in bold. The problem is, some people will obey a 20 limit and that annoys people.

    Stick a speed camera in there and people will do 30.
    I've been teaching my step-daughter to drive recently, and it is very noticeable that some people simply cannot stand to drive at the speed limit. My step-daughter obviously has to learn to drive at or just below the speed limit (since she'd otherwise fail her driving test), but whatever the speed limit, there's always some bozo behind who just has to get past and will drive right on our tail before overtaking at the next (barely) possible opportunity.

    And while I'm on the topic, I've seen some of the worst driving about while teaching her to drive. The L-plates seem like a red rag to a bull for some people. They think nothing of driving right on your tail, or cutting straight across in front of you. And if a learner has stalled their car on a hill in front of you, sitting two inches behind their bumper and leaning on your horn isn't going to help them get going any faster!
    People are bullying arseholes, especially when they feel safe from confrontation, such as in their car, or behind the boss’s desk.
    My driving instructor liked my approach to people hammering the horn when I was doing 20.

    I would, almost instinctively, slow down by about 1 mph, each time they sounded the horn.
    I let them pass.

    As a general rule I like dangerous idiots in front of me so I can watch them, rather than behind me where they are likely to rear-end me.
    Letting people in is the best way to drive even if they're in the wrong.

    The flipside is using the invariably empty lane for a road merger, don't be the arsehole hanging wheels over the white line to "block" people coming up the other lane in some sort of weird non highway code compliant moral queueing protocol.
    That one annoys me. Using both lanes is quite explicitly the rule!
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,945
    edited August 22
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    That would be great. One of my grandchildren, having just got his degree, wants to see a bit of the world before settling down, and at time of writing is planning to go to Australia for a year or so. That seems, apparently, his nearest practical option. He doesn't fancy N. America.
    I know I keep banging on about this - but for 95% of us, a country which speaks the same language is a far more practical option for living/working abroad than a country which happens to be close.
    Which is why I was reasonably effective when I was working in Copenhagen and Amsterdam. You can do post-graduate studies in English in lots of European countries too.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701
    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    That would be great. One of my grandchildren, having just got his degree, wants to see a bit of the world before settling down, and at time of writing is planning to go to Australia for a year or so. That seems, apparently, his nearest practical option. He doesn't fancy N. America.
    I know I keep banging on about this - but for 95% of us, a country which speaks the same language is a far more practical option for living/working abroad than a country which happens to be close.
    It would do wonders for language teaching in this country for a start. During my working life I hosted, or participated in hosting, students from various European countries, most of who spoke quite good English and it was a pleasure to see the interest they took in the world around them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,447
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    Imagine if they had offered some similar constructive ideas to Cameron BEFORE the referendum happened...
    We did have free movement at all ages then.
    And there was no intrinsic reason (beyond UK politics) why that couldn't have continued afterwards.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,736
    Scott_xP said:

    @tompeck

    If Keir Starmer resigns today he will be the UK's shortest ever serving Prime Minister. If he makes it through to Saturday it will still be Liz Truss.

    2 worst PMs since Boris 😫
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 4,488
    edited August 22
    MattW said:



    I hope she does well.

    Can I recommend the Ashley Neal Youtube channel, which is very good because he spends much time reviewing particular situations and reflecting on what could have been done better - and he is an Instruct the Instructors Instructor (so to speak). And the comments section is quite knowledgeable and civilised.

    It's great for learners, as she will get extra perspectives over your own (and we all have blind spots).

    https://www.youtube.com/@ashley_neal/videos

    I identify with the "learners get bullied by MGIFers" comment. Around here I see in media reports too many inexperienced drivers (say

    Yes, I find Ashley Neal's channel extremely useful, and it's good that he also gets on his bike sometimes to give the perspective from that side. My step-daughter's getting on alright and can drive perfectly well on an empty road, but she does get very nervous when other cars are following behind, especially if they are close. And when she's nervous, she starts to make mistakes. It's probably about time she started having some lessons with a proper driving instructor now.

    P.S. Something weird was happening with the block quote chain, so I had to delete them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,175

    Meanwhile Germany continues to struggle:

    "These numbers are a real mess. The recession in Germany’s manufacturing sector deepened in August, with no recovery in sight. In fact, new orders took a sharper dive than last month, mainly due to a significant drop in foreign demand, signalling more trouble ahead. Given this, it’s hardly surprising that companies are ramping up staff cuts and slashing inventories of inputs even more aggressively than before.

    “The struggles in manufacturing are starting to spill over into the otherwise steady services sector. For the third month in a row, services activity growth has slowed down. New business is barely growing, and backlogs declined once again. The export side of services, including tourism, isn’t offering much support either, shrinking at an even faster rate than in July."


    https://www.pmi.spglobal.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/3c59ed1870c24259ac3e62cfb7792724

    It's hard to see how they can compete with China moving up the value chain in manufacturing. They're going to be left behind in car exports soon:

    image
    Perhaps Germany should have spent as much effort in developing electric cars as they did in cheating on diesel emissions.
    Both the US and German manufacturers thought they could make the transition for ICE to electric at their convenience, while maintaining profit margins.
    It doesn't work like that in the modern world, as any business in the tech sector has known for decades.

    And it makes little sense to complain about Chinese subsidies for their industry, when the west has (quite rightly) been arguing for subsidies to make the transition to renewables. China just decided to go for ir before we did.

    But Chinese domination is hardly inevitable, if a small country like S Korea can still compete in the EV market.
    https://insideevs.com/news/730671/hyundai-motor-group-ev-sales/

    Both US and European manufacturers are reassessing what they need to do, as they start to realise how far behind they are. For some, it will be too late.
  • Tim_in_RuislipTim_in_Ruislip Posts: 435
    edited August 22

    Scott_xP said:

    @tompeck

    If Keir Starmer resigns today he will be the UK's shortest ever serving Prime Minister. If he makes it through to Saturday it will still be Liz Truss.

    2 worst PMs since Boris 😫
    Genuine question, BJO, What would labour need to do to get your vote at the next election?

    What would Starmer need to do?

    If it were realistically a choice between Farage v. Starmer on voting day (not that I necessarily think it likely, but in that hypothetical scenario....) in which box would you place your all-important "X"

    ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,175
    edited August 22
    rcs1000 said:

    Meanwhile Germany continues to struggle:

    "These numbers are a real mess. The recession in Germany’s manufacturing sector deepened in August, with no recovery in sight. In fact, new orders took a sharper dive than last month, mainly due to a significant drop in foreign demand, signalling more trouble ahead. Given this, it’s hardly surprising that companies are ramping up staff cuts and slashing inventories of inputs even more aggressively than before.

    “The struggles in manufacturing are starting to spill over into the otherwise steady services sector. For the third month in a row, services activity growth has slowed down. New business is barely growing, and backlogs declined once again. The export side of services, including tourism, isn’t offering much support either, shrinking at an even faster rate than in July."


    https://www.pmi.spglobal.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/3c59ed1870c24259ac3e62cfb7792724

    It's hard to see how they can compete with China moving up the value chain in manufacturing. They're going to be left behind in car exports soon:

    image
    Perhaps Germany should have spent as much effort in developing electric cars as they did in cheating on diesel emissions.
    It's ironic that BMW created the first electric car that Jeremy Clarkson preferred to a petrol one (the i8), and then they effectively abandoned the space, just before it took off.

    The other thing I find impressive about that chart is how well the Japanese have turned things around, given they were *very* late to the game with electric, having abandoned the Leaf, and having gone down a number of dead ends like the hydrogen powered Mirai.
    With Panasonic, though they weren't late at all in battery manufacturing.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,935

    Scott_xP said:

    @tompeck

    If Keir Starmer resigns today he will be the UK's shortest ever serving Prime Minister. If he makes it through to Saturday it will still be Liz Truss.

    2 worst PMs since Boris 😫
    Genuine question, BJO, What would labour need to do to get your vote at the next election?

    What would Starmer need to do?
    Resign?
  • MattW said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Beyond the entrance to the estate? That's absurd, why should the main road outside the estate be a 20?

    Inside the estate, sure, drive slowly on residential streets. But if you're driving past and not on the estate? Then keep driving past it.

    Your whole argument for LTNs and one I can respect and agree with is it separates the residential from the traffic, but that becomes moot if you're making the main road be classed the same as the estate, its not.
    Note I said I think 30mph would be appropriate there for the main road, not 20mph. I'd have left the limit at 30 and moved it further out of the village as the built-up zone expands.

    (Aside: I didn't mention LTNs, though you are correct about my view. BTW LHA is Local Highways Authority - sorry, should have mentioned.)

    The entrance to the estate is better into a 30mph limit on the major road rather than a 60mph because there will be something like 2-4 turning manoeuvres per day per household into and out of that estate road (standard road design assumption), and we know that junctions are where most collisions happen, and that they are significantly more dangerous into higher speed than lower speed major roads.

    That's established design practise for safety, and reduced speed limits near junctions are a routine practise by Highways Authorities.

    So extending the lower speed limit to beyond the entrance from the estate seems sensible.
    Sorry I thought you were arguing it should be 20.

    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    We can agree that 20 is preposterous outside estates can we not and it should be a 30 not a 20, right?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,447

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    Imagine if they had offered some similar constructive ideas to Cameron BEFORE the referendum happened...
    We would still have left. It was in the stars.
    No, we left because Cameron came back with a shit "renegotation", got defensive when this was pointed out and then pissed off his should-have-been Remainers with his wank about European wars, etc etc etc.

    I know, I was one of those should-have-been Remainers.
    What could/should Cameron have got that he didn't get?

    What more could/should Cameron have offered to get that?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,496
    kinabalu said:

    Well Happy Birthday to me and a big one too. So big the Beatles wrote a song about it. Bringing the cat in, taking my statin ... when I'm 64.

    A whippersnapper, Happy Birthday
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114

    Sunder Katwala
    @sundersays
    ·
    7m
    My hunch is that James Cleverly is likely to make the ballot, against either Kemi Badenoch or Robert Jenrick, perhaps as the slight outsider in the second round

    https://x.com/sundersays
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,269

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    Imagine if they had offered some similar constructive ideas to Cameron BEFORE the referendum happened...
    In retrospect, what Cameron should have done is taken them by surprise by invoking Article 50 after Merkel opened the borders and then renegotiated from a position of strength.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    That would be great. One of my grandchildren, having just got his degree, wants to see a bit of the world before settling down, and at time of writing is planning to go to Australia for a year or so. That seems, apparently, his nearest practical option. He doesn't fancy N. America.
    I know I keep banging on about this - but for 95% of us, a country which speaks the same language is a far more practical option for living/working abroad than a country which happens to be close.
    It would do wonders for language teaching in this country for a start. During my working life I hosted, or participated in hosting, students from various European countries, most of who spoke quite good English and it was a pleasure to see the interest they took in the world around them.
    As a general observation - I absolutely cannot fathom how people can master a language other than their own. I can see that people do - but the ability to do so utterly evaded me at school. I could learn to write and (clumsily) speak words in other languages, and at a push I could sometimes understand what a piece of writing was about - but picking out meaning from sentences spoken in other languages utterly eluded me.
    Measured objectively, I'm quite clever - but languages defeat me.
    I did manage an A in GCSE German, but the listening bit was entirely guesswork.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890
    edited August 22
    One for @Foxy , and since we are on Transport as the OT subthread.

    I see that Oadby is about to get Leicestershire's first Cyclops junction (main change is protected mobility and pedestrian tracks around the junction on the A6), and that LCC (County) even though this is only their first seem to know what they are doing in that they are going for an "all round green" phase for the active travel modes, rather than making them wait 3 or 4 times to cross 2 roads. Unlike Liverpool City Regon who cocked up the lights and mobility track in St Helens, by requiring wheelers and cyclists to make a 180-turn on a radius only suitable for unicycles.

    I gave them comments as a sometimes-visitor, especially about the importance of sweating the detail on stuff they have not done before.

    Some interesting politics in local forums from the usual motor-orientated suspects, who will hardly be affected: "How DARE they not spend ALL the money on MEEEE".

    My photo quota for the day:


    This location: https://www.google.com/maps/place/52°36'05.7"N+1°05'04.4"W/@52.6015833,-1.0871305,510m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m4!3m3!8m2!3d52.6015833!4d-1.0845556?entry=ttu

    Scheme Page:
    https://www.leicestershire.gov.uk/have-your-say/current-engagement/oadby-cyclops-junction-scheme
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,945


    Sunder Katwala
    @sundersays
    ·
    7m
    My hunch is that James Cleverly is likely to make the ballot, against either Kemi Badenoch or Robert Jenrick, perhaps as the slight outsider in the second round

    https://x.com/sundersays

    We were saying this on PB about 3 weeks ago IIRC. But nice to have others confirming it.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    edited August 22
    "one of the biggest reasons the Conservative party should pick James Cleverly is that he is the candidate the opinion polls tell us is the preferred pick!"

    James Cleverly should be Tory party’s obvious pick for leader
    https://www.ft.com/content/e7b09e2b-45a2-4405-b196-93d8c8055c0d
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    Andy_JS said:


    Sunder Katwala
    @sundersays
    ·
    7m
    My hunch is that James Cleverly is likely to make the ballot, against either Kemi Badenoch or Robert Jenrick, perhaps as the slight outsider in the second round

    https://x.com/sundersays

    We were saying this on PB about 3 weeks ago IIRC. But nice to have others confirming it.
    If it is Badenoch vs Cleverly I will be very relieved as the poorhouse awaits a Jenrick win.

    The membership would be mad to put Jenrick in over an experienced hand like Cleverly. But...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701

    MattW said:



    I hope she does well.

    Can I recommend the Ashley Neal Youtube channel, which is very good because he spends much time reviewing particular situations and reflecting on what could have been done better - and he is an Instruct the Instructors Instructor (so to speak). And the comments section is quite knowledgeable and civilised.

    It's great for learners, as she will get extra perspectives over your own (and we all have blind spots).

    https://www.youtube.com/@ashley_neal/videos

    I identify with the "learners get bullied by MGIFers" comment. Around here I see in media reports too many inexperienced drivers (say

    Yes, I find Ashley Neal's channel extremely useful, and it's good that he also gets on his bike sometimes to give the perspective from that side. My step-daughter's getting on alright and can drive perfectly well on an empty road, but she does get very nervous when other cars are following behind, especially if they are close. And when she's nervous, she starts to make mistakes. It's probably about time she started having some lessons with a proper driving instructor now.

    P.S. Something weird was happening with the block quote chain, so I had to delete them.
    I wouldn't teach my children to drive, but insisted (and paid) for professional lessons. I was happy to sit beside them, though.
    Son and son-in-law followed my example.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,114
    kinabalu said:

    Well Happy Birthday to me and a big one too. So big the Beatles wrote a song about it. Bringing the cat in, taking my statin ... when I'm 64.

    All the best on your birthday!!!

    State pension age beckoning!! :smile:
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,701
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    That would be great. One of my grandchildren, having just got his degree, wants to see a bit of the world before settling down, and at time of writing is planning to go to Australia for a year or so. That seems, apparently, his nearest practical option. He doesn't fancy N. America.
    I know I keep banging on about this - but for 95% of us, a country which speaks the same language is a far more practical option for living/working abroad than a country which happens to be close.
    It would do wonders for language teaching in this country for a start. During my working life I hosted, or participated in hosting, students from various European countries, most of who spoke quite good English and it was a pleasure to see the interest they took in the world around them.
    As a general observation - I absolutely cannot fathom how people can master a language other than their own. I can see that people do - but the ability to do so utterly evaded me at school. I could learn to write and (clumsily) speak words in other languages, and at a push I could sometimes understand what a piece of writing was about - but picking out meaning from sentences spoken in other languages utterly eluded me.
    Measured objectively, I'm quite clever - but languages defeat me.
    I did manage an A in GCSE German, but the listening bit was entirely guesswork.
    I'm the opposite. I can learn to speak another language but writing it is a different matter.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 14,069

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Beyond the entrance to the estate? That's absurd, why should the main road outside the estate be a 20?

    Inside the estate, sure, drive slowly on residential streets. But if you're driving past and not on the estate? Then keep driving past it.

    Your whole argument for LTNs and one I can respect and agree with is it separates the residential from the traffic, but that becomes moot if you're making the main road be classed the same as the estate, its not.
    Note I said I think 30mph would be appropriate there for the main road, not 20mph. I'd have left the limit at 30 and moved it further out of the village as the built-up zone expands.

    (Aside: I didn't mention LTNs, though you are correct about my view. BTW LHA is Local Highways Authority - sorry, should have mentioned.)

    The entrance to the estate is better into a 30mph limit on the major road rather than a 60mph because there will be something like 2-4 turning manoeuvres per day per household into and out of that estate road (standard road design assumption), and we know that junctions are where most collisions happen, and that they are significantly more dangerous into higher speed than lower speed major roads.

    That's established design practise for safety, and reduced speed limits near junctions are a routine practise by Highways Authorities.

    So extending the lower speed limit to beyond the entrance from the estate seems sensible.
    Sorry I thought you were arguing it should be 20.

    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    We can agree that 20 is preposterous outside estates can we not and it should be a 30 not a 20, right?
    That seems broadly reasonable to me as a default. No doubt there will be exceptions.

    30mph is in most circumstances a perfectly reasonable speed in an urban environment. The problem comes when this is flouted. But the correct response to this shouldn't be to say 'well in 30 zones some people go at 40, so we'll drop the limit to 20 so they go at 30' but to enforce laws and adjust behaviours so that the stated limits are adhered to. The alternative is punishing the law abiding but not the guilty.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,334
    O/T but nice piece about a marine biologist. However, as usual these days it's a mixed news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/aug/22/im-obsessed-with-sea-worms-thankfully-in-25-years-of-working-with-them-ive-never-been-bitten

    "Worms are also food for all sorts of fish and birds, and we’re polluting them: we mimicked the levels of cocaine and antidepressants that were measured in the mud in Bristol harbour in a lab experiment and looked at how that affected worms’ behaviour. The worms stopped eating, lost weight and stopped burrowing into the mud."
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,766
    Cookie said:

    Cookie said:

    HYUFD said:

    'Free movement curbs could be relaxed under EU reset.

    The policy would grant 18 to 30-year-olds visas for up to three years to work, study or volunteer in the UK, with a reciprocal agreement for young Britons'
    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/eu-free-movement-young-people-mobility-scheme-pvw0slfhh

    That would be great. One of my grandchildren, having just got his degree, wants to see a bit of the world before settling down, and at time of writing is planning to go to Australia for a year or so. That seems, apparently, his nearest practical option. He doesn't fancy N. America.
    I know I keep banging on about this - but for 95% of us, a country which speaks the same language is a far more practical option for living/working abroad than a country which happens to be close.
    It would do wonders for language teaching in this country for a start. During my working life I hosted, or participated in hosting, students from various European countries, most of who spoke quite good English and it was a pleasure to see the interest they took in the world around them.
    As a general observation - I absolutely cannot fathom how people can master a language other than their own. I can see that people do - but the ability to do so utterly evaded me at school. I could learn to write and (clumsily) speak words in other languages, and at a push I could sometimes understand what a piece of writing was about - but picking out meaning from sentences spoken in other languages utterly eluded me.
    Measured objectively, I'm quite clever - but languages defeat me.
    I did manage an A in GCSE German, but the listening bit was entirely guesswork.
    There are no miracles or mysteries in language learning. Just work harder. Some people find it easier than others but proficiency in a language is just an indication of how badly you want it.

    I've studied Arabic for 4-6 hours a day for two years without a single day off, even when I was driving across Ukraine. I think I will have to do another two years with some extended bouts of immersion before I am confident and comfortable teaching it. I will freely admit that this is not everybody's idea of a good time.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,890

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    tlg86 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Eabhal said:

    ydoethur said:

    It is interesting being in Wales for a few days and obeying the new 20mph speed limit. Everywhere I seem to build up massive queues of irritable locals.

    This is in the north-east, so one of the areas worst affected and where the three local councils have been most resistant to making adjustments.

    Good on you! It only takes one law abiding driver (or commercial/emergency vehicle) to enforce them.

    Given the number of roads that are already excepted from 20mph, I suspected that councils would find it difficult to find any more without pissing off local residents (people like driving at 30mph past other people's houses). I'd guess that is what is happening here?
    Why italicise that?

    If people choose to live on a main road, what's wrong with driving past their home at 30mph or 40mph or 50mph if that's the speed limit?

    Main arterial roads should be 40 or 50mph through towns and 60 or 70mph outside of towns.

    20 is plenty for residential streets, but arteries are not residential streets.
    That does get more complicated in Wales, where the lack of bypasses means very often they are the same thing. Ponterwyd or Rhayader or Aberystwyth, for example.

    There are some however classified as residential that really are not. The A44 at Llangurig where the 20mph zone goes past the church, the pub and a garage springs to mind. The village itself is on a back street...
    Yes, this is ridiculous:

    https://tinyurl.com/bdzwt32j
    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    The move is sensible, because they know that your average UK driver who does not look beyond the end of their bonnet will be racing up to that sign at 50 or 60mph than stand their car on its nose to slow down.

    The real issue there is that UK roads are not designed to look like roads that are safe at the suitable speed limit eg through villages, so there are not the necessary visual cues for people driving through to slow down, and they go hooning through regardless.

    That's down to the nature of LHAs being created to build roads, and ignore other interests - such as adequate consideration for pedestrians. It's also why junctions prioritise throughput over safety, and anyone asking for a Zebra crossing across a busy road to a primary school will be told in effect that not enough children under 10 have been killed or crippled to justify it yet.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.4052751,-3.6039681,3a,75y,324.77h,76.15t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s8sOZOWB6phAG5b25VaVZ6w!2e0!5s20101101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en&coh=205409&entry=ttu
    Beyond the entrance to the estate? That's absurd, why should the main road outside the estate be a 20?

    Inside the estate, sure, drive slowly on residential streets. But if you're driving past and not on the estate? Then keep driving past it.

    Your whole argument for LTNs and one I can respect and agree with is it separates the residential from the traffic, but that becomes moot if you're making the main road be classed the same as the estate, its not.
    Note I said I think 30mph would be appropriate there for the main road, not 20mph. I'd have left the limit at 30 and moved it further out of the village as the built-up zone expands.

    (Aside: I didn't mention LTNs, though you are correct about my view. BTW LHA is Local Highways Authority - sorry, should have mentioned.)

    The entrance to the estate is better into a 30mph limit on the major road rather than a 60mph because there will be something like 2-4 turning manoeuvres per day per household into and out of that estate road (standard road design assumption), and we know that junctions are where most collisions happen, and that they are significantly more dangerous into higher speed than lower speed major roads.

    That's established design practise for safety, and reduced speed limits near junctions are a routine practise by Highways Authorities.

    So extending the lower speed limit to beyond the entrance from the estate seems sensible.
    Sorry I thought you were arguing it should be 20.

    That used to be 30 (below), and the limit has been dropped to 20 and moved a little further out of the village to be beyond the entrance to a housing estate which looks like it is due for a lot more expansion.

    We can agree that 20 is preposterous outside estates can we not and it should be a 30 not a 20, right?
    Yes. In general I have no problem with 30mph on connecting roads within community boundaries. Subject perhaps to things like arrangements at schools on such roads at arriving/leaving times - of which there are many - and similar, but I think we probably concur on that too.

    For active travel, 20mph is in national guidelines (which are quite good these days even though an update is due) as the speed limit where "mixed modes" are OK provided motor traffic is very low volume and treated as a "guest", 30mph is the speed where painted mobility lanes on the carriageway are generally OK (though separated or lightly separated is better), and 40mph is the speed limit at which stronger separation is necessary.

    There is lots of other detailed design ideas I would argue for, such as tighter radius kerbs to side roads than is SOP in the UK. Those are slightly different debates. Much of that is to do with setting "felt-appropriate" speed in the driver's head, so that safer behaviour becomes done by habit and culture not enforcement-everywhere (which costs lots of money to install).

    This particular theme is where Active Travel England give quite a lot of priority working on culture change within local government bodies.
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