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Ed Davey’s cunning stunts worked but as for the betting scandal – politicalbetting.com

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Comments

  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,431
    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Brains Trust.

    This is far righters at I think the Tommy Robinson demo, chanting "we want our country back."

    Can anyone help me with the symbology / organisations.

    I can see the Union Flag, England Flag.

    What is the Black top/White bottom flag with the red maltese(?) cross central?

    What is the "British Youth" Union Flag. I think the middle slogan is Christ is King, which is the current far right Christian Nationalist shtick.

    Thanks. I'm looking into the "I want my country back" slogan which has been all over Lee Anderson's social media channels for weeks.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=38

    Knights Templar were crusaders?
    Knights Templar Battle Flag.

    Thank-you.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar#/media/File:Bandeira_Templária.svg
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,679
    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,763
    edited August 14
    2024 National GE:

    Harris 52% (+4)
    Trump 48%

    .
    @ActiVoteUS
    , 1,000 LV, 8/7-14


    https://x.com/Politics_Polls/status/1823769045381914738

    (Nearly a 5% lead)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,815

    Still no new regular visitors from Moscow.

    I guess they must have been conscripted.

    Kyiv bombards Russian air base 400 miles from the border

    Locals report at least 10 explosions in Nizhny Novgorod region in Ukraine’s largest drone strike since war began


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/14/ukraine-russia-war-airbases-counterstrike/

    Judging by the rabid misinformation all the trolls and bots have been deployed to the Twitter front, just look under anything tagged #Kursk, #Kiev (not #Kyiv) or about Harris/Walz.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,646
    ydoethur said:

    Hmmm.

    Maybe given that ball I didn’t see only just missed me, I should pay more attention to the cricket and less to PB

    Rule #1 of being in a cricket ground, never take one’s eye off the ball. Because they bloody hurt when they hit you!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,815
    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Because they voted Reform instead?
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,431

    MattW said:

    Brains Trust.

    This is far righters at I think the Tommy Robinson demo, chanting "we want our country back."

    Can anyone help me with the symbology / organisations.

    I can see the Union Flag, England Flag.

    What is the Black top/White bottom flag with the red maltese(?) cross central?

    What is the "British Youth" Union Flag. I think the middle slogan is Christ is King, which is the current far right Christian Nationalist shtick.

    Thanks. I'm looking into the "I want my country back" slogan which has been all over Lee Anderson's social media channels for weeks.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=38

    They’re certainly followers of the British Union Flag.
    There's also a St Patrick's Saltire, and I think a normal Saltire with imposed (I think) central Red Hand of Ulster. I have not seen the latter previously.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=6
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    Foxy said:

    Still no new regular visitors from Moscow.

    I guess they must have been conscripted.

    Kyiv bombards Russian air base 400 miles from the border

    Locals report at least 10 explosions in Nizhny Novgorod region in Ukraine’s largest drone strike since war began


    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/08/14/ukraine-russia-war-airbases-counterstrike/

    Judging by the rabid misinformation all the trolls and bots have been deployed to the Twitter front, just look under anything tagged #Kursk, #Kiev (not #Kyiv) or about Harris/Walz.

    Nizhny Novgorod you say…


    Mr. Brusiloff drew his chair closer.

    "Let me tell you one vairy funny story about putting. It was one day I play at Nijni-Novgorod with the pro. against Lenin and Trotsky, and Trotsky had a two-inch putt for the hole. But, just as he addresses the ball, someone in the crowd he tries to assassinate Lenin with a rewolwer--you know that is our great national sport, trying to assassinate Lenin with rewolwers--and the bang puts Trotsky off his stroke and he goes five yards past the hole, and then Lenin, who is rather shaken, you understand, he misses again himself, and we win the hole and match and I clean up three hundred and ninety-six thousand roubles, or fifteen shillings in your money. Some gameovitch!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,016

    I booked the time off work today for my very domestic walking holiday (the official route starts less than a mile from my front door) that I mentioned the other day. I'm going to try to walk to Sandbanks, via Lyme Regis, about 185 miles I think, in the week ending on October 1st

    I'll then stay with my family in Sandbanks for three nights before getting a lift back to Marlborough with them. That's a pretty green holiday: one sixty mile car journey that was happening anyway having my mass added to it

    I've realised that my Jamaican artist friend I mentioned last week lives about a day's walk in, so I might be able to stay at his place - so long as it's more than twenty five miles walk from home; I don't want to get behind on the first day

    And my father's best man, and my sister's godfather, lives in Dorchester. That's halfway between Lyme Regis and Poole, so perfect for my last night's stop. He's a retired GP who diagnosed me with TB fifteen years ago. Might have saved my life. He'll definitely put me up for the night

    So I might only have to pay for four nights in pubs/hotels/Airbnbs/campsites, or maybe more free nights in a tent. Looking at the route, it's mainly through villages; I think I'll be mostly eating and drinking in rural pubs. I should probably try to only drink real ale while walking, and taste as many as possible

    For anyone that missed it and is interested, this is the the link with the route to Lyme Regis on an OS map. Avebury is my first stop. It'll be a bit too early for.a pint though

    https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/show_path.php?path_name=Wessex+Ridgeway

    I'd be tempted to try to find am Abbotsbury -Hardy Monument -Maiden Castle route to Dorchester. Looked rather tempting last time we were there.
  • Carnyx said:

    I booked the time off work today for my very domestic walking holiday (the official route starts less than a mile from my front door) that I mentioned the other day. I'm going to try to walk to Sandbanks, via Lyme Regis, about 185 miles I think, in the week ending on October 1st

    I'll then stay with my family in Sandbanks for three nights before getting a lift back to Marlborough with them. That's a pretty green holiday: one sixty mile car journey that was happening anyway having my mass added to it

    I've realised that my Jamaican artist friend I mentioned last week lives about a day's walk in, so I might be able to stay at his place - so long as it's more than twenty five miles walk from home; I don't want to get behind on the first day

    And my father's best man, and my sister's godfather, lives in Dorchester. That's halfway between Lyme Regis and Poole, so perfect for my last night's stop. He's a retired GP who diagnosed me with TB fifteen years ago. Might have saved my life. He'll definitely put me up for the night

    So I might only have to pay for four nights in pubs/hotels/Airbnbs/campsites, or maybe more free nights in a tent. Looking at the route, it's mainly through villages; I think I'll be mostly eating and drinking in rural pubs. I should probably try to only drink real ale while walking, and taste as many as possible

    For anyone that missed it and is interested, this is the the link with the route to Lyme Regis on an OS map. Avebury is my first stop. It'll be a bit too early for.a pint though

    https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/show_path.php?path_name=Wessex+Ridgeway

    I'd be tempted to try to find am Abbotsbury -Hardy Monument -Maiden Castle route to Dorchester. Looked rather tempting last time we were there.
    Ooh thanks! I'll check that out
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    I really really hope this is either made up or there is a lot more to this than there seems.

    3/ The court found that "In the year 2024, in the United States of America, in the State of California, in the City of Los Angeles, Jewish students were excluded from portions of the # UCLA campus because they refused to denounce their faith. This fact is so unimaginable and so abhorrent to our constitutional guarantee of religious freedom that it bears repeating,"

    https://nitter.poast.org/PrawfBainbridge/status/1823509810068996250#m
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Are RN even the most extreme option in France anymore?
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815

    Carnyx said:

    I booked the time off work today for my very domestic walking holiday (the official route starts less than a mile from my front door) that I mentioned the other day. I'm going to try to walk to Sandbanks, via Lyme Regis, about 185 miles I think, in the week ending on October 1st

    I'll then stay with my family in Sandbanks for three nights before getting a lift back to Marlborough with them. That's a pretty green holiday: one sixty mile car journey that was happening anyway having my mass added to it

    I've realised that my Jamaican artist friend I mentioned last week lives about a day's walk in, so I might be able to stay at his place - so long as it's more than twenty five miles walk from home; I don't want to get behind on the first day

    And my father's best man, and my sister's godfather, lives in Dorchester. That's halfway between Lyme Regis and Poole, so perfect for my last night's stop. He's a retired GP who diagnosed me with TB fifteen years ago. Might have saved my life. He'll definitely put me up for the night

    So I might only have to pay for four nights in pubs/hotels/Airbnbs/campsites, or maybe more free nights in a tent. Looking at the route, it's mainly through villages; I think I'll be mostly eating and drinking in rural pubs. I should probably try to only drink real ale while walking, and taste as many as possible

    For anyone that missed it and is interested, this is the the link with the route to Lyme Regis on an OS map. Avebury is my first stop. It'll be a bit too early for.a pint though

    https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/show_path.php?path_name=Wessex+Ridgeway

    I'd be tempted to try to find am Abbotsbury -Hardy Monument -Maiden Castle route to Dorchester. Looked rather tempting last time we were there.
    Ooh thanks! I'll check that out
    It's v easy, South Dorset Ridgeway takes you from Abbotsbury to and past Hardy Monument, then fork left on a footpath after 4k and you're there. Mind you I did it by car a couple of weeks ago and the roads are so quiet they are perfectly walkable.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,225
    Andy_JS said:

    Latest polling average from Economist

    Harris 47.8%
    Trump 45.0%

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls

    That is one stubborn 45%.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,921
    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    What are the policy differences which make National Rally and Reform or even the Braverman wing of the Conservatives so different?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,016

    Carnyx said:

    I booked the time off work today for my very domestic walking holiday (the official route starts less than a mile from my front door) that I mentioned the other day. I'm going to try to walk to Sandbanks, via Lyme Regis, about 185 miles I think, in the week ending on October 1st

    I'll then stay with my family in Sandbanks for three nights before getting a lift back to Marlborough with them. That's a pretty green holiday: one sixty mile car journey that was happening anyway having my mass added to it

    I've realised that my Jamaican artist friend I mentioned last week lives about a day's walk in, so I might be able to stay at his place - so long as it's more than twenty five miles walk from home; I don't want to get behind on the first day

    And my father's best man, and my sister's godfather, lives in Dorchester. That's halfway between Lyme Regis and Poole, so perfect for my last night's stop. He's a retired GP who diagnosed me with TB fifteen years ago. Might have saved my life. He'll definitely put me up for the night

    So I might only have to pay for four nights in pubs/hotels/Airbnbs/campsites, or maybe more free nights in a tent. Looking at the route, it's mainly through villages; I think I'll be mostly eating and drinking in rural pubs. I should probably try to only drink real ale while walking, and taste as many as possible

    For anyone that missed it and is interested, this is the the link with the route to Lyme Regis on an OS map. Avebury is my first stop. It'll be a bit too early for.a pint though

    https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/show_path.php?path_name=Wessex+Ridgeway

    I'd be tempted to try to find am Abbotsbury -Hardy Monument -Maiden Castle route to Dorchester. Looked rather tempting last time we were there.
    Ooh thanks! I'll check that out

    Depends where your dad's friend lives, but if walking into central Dorchester it's a fair trek on tarmac from the west if you go direct-ish thanks to the bypass and the Royal Formerly Known as Prince Charles, unless pastiche architecture is your thing. The last time we tried to go from our B&B (halfway to Poundbury from the centre) to Maiden Castle all the paths had been cut bu the bypass and farmers. Maybe something has been done about that, but it could be that Maiden C to Dorchester is best by the southern quadrant of the town, along or near the Weymouth road. At least that way you could take in Maumbury Rings in south central Dorchester as well. Old Henge repurposed as barbarian Roman amphitheature and barbarian 18th century execution site IIRC. Tucked in between two railway lines.

    Our favourite walkies routes in/out are the NW radial (from the real Poundbury hill fort along the river valley and the Roman aqueduct ); and directly east under the road and along the river-ish path past Kingston Maurward House/ag coll (though we diverted to the north after a few miles to the old roman road and Hardy birthplace so can't say what it is like further).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,481
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest polling average from Economist

    Harris 47.8%
    Trump 45.0%

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls

    That is one stubborn 45%.
    It's amazing how Trump's poll rating has barely shifted 0.5% during the transition from Biden to Harris, while the Democrats have surged.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,955
    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Reform?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest polling average from Economist

    Harris 47.8%
    Trump 45.0%

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls

    That is one stubborn 45%.
    MAGA is a cult - all evidence against the cult becomes evidence *for* the cult.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Foxy said:

    I see the news travels fast. Trump was asked to pay up front for his rally in the smaller of Asheville NC arenas:

    https://www.newsweek.com/trump-campaign-forced-pay-north-carolina-city-82k-advance-rally-1938769

    Long history of US POTUS campaigns stiffing hotels, venues and other vendors. For example, in (IIRC) Dr. Hunter S. Thompsons "Fear & Loathing on the Campaign Trail", HST tells story about how the McGovern campaign asked to be billed for use of a function room at a Milwaukee hotel during the 1972 Wisconsin primary; the manager sighed, then produced an unpaid IOU from JFK's 1960 primary campaign.

    OF COURSE Donald Trump was well-known even BEFORE entering politics for his less-than-scrupulous business practices . . .

    BYT, note that the MAGA-maniacs chose the LESSER re: crowd capacity options for DJT's NC rally. As the Gomer Pyle (character made famous by "Mayberry" TV show) might well say - "Surprise! Surprise!"
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    Trump added two trillion dollars to the national debt with his tax cuts . 83% of that new debt went to the top 1% , with scraps for the rest but the cult continues to believe he’s a man of the people and cares about the average Joe .

    And when it came to budget talks and especially on funding to Ukraine the GOP were suddenly worried about the debt.



  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    edited August 14
    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    What do YOU consider "far right" because until we have that frame of reference no one will understand what you are going on about?

    Of equal relevance, what do you consider "far left" - Labour, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens, the Conservative Party?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest polling average from Economist

    Harris 47.8%
    Trump 45.0%

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls

    That is one stubborn 45%.
    IF Donald Trump had any sense AND stopped hyperventalating about the symptoms of just how badly he's "managed" his campaign AND "responded" to Biden > Harris, he'd realize he has a solid base and then some with voters.

    BUT as we already know, Trump's fragile ego can NOT deal with anything even approaching adversity.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,431
    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    My comment is that in France and Germany they got where they are by starting from where they were. I don't wish to see that happen here, and I think RefUK, and certain elements or former elements of the Tories, may be attempting to mainstream the far right - either deliberately or to try and save themselves.

    That's what I think Lee Anderson may be doing - in Ashfield and certain neighbouring areas that is dog whistling to the old Right of Conservative vote, from UKIP out to BNP.

    On SM I'm seeing an overlap between RefUK commentators and Trump-types, and it's a concern that we may get more of elements of the crusader type narrative adopted as a fake cultural icon.

    Here's what can happen when individuals swallow the message without thinking, and are groomed, for a moment or more permanently, into values they did not previously hold.

    A woman who called on Facebook for a mosque to "be blown up with the adults inside" has been jailed for 15 months.

    Julie Sweeney, 53, of Cheshire, admitted a charge of sending a communication threatening death or serious harm, when she appeared at Chester Crown Court.

    Sweeney, from Church Lawton near Alsager, posted the comment after riots flared across England in the wake of the killings of three young girls in Southport, last month.

    The court heard she was responding to an online post picturing people helping to repair the mosque in Southport after it was damaged during violent disorder that followed the stabbings.

    The court was told Sweeney wrote: "It’s absolutely ridiculous. Don’t protect the mosque. Blow the mosque up with the adults in it."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz6x105wgz5o
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,018
    FPT: Marquee wrote: "Yes. Who knows why..." [David Leip uses red for Democrats and blue for Republicans}

    Two reasons: First, because that was traditional in the United States. Example:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Historical_Atlas_of_Political_Parties_in_the_United_States_Congress:_1789–1989 (I have a copy. It is a wonderful reference.)

    Second, because it is consistent with the color coding in most of the world.

    (The color coding changed when US TV networks began using red and blue, as they now commonly do. I believe that happened in 2000, though haven't bothered to check.

    I have always suspected that the change came to protect the Democrats from the negative associations with Communists that the color red has in the United States, but have no direct evidence for that theory.)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    I'm not sure what country it is Lee Anderson wants "back".

    It's not a country I recognise or would want to live in.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    stodge said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    What do YOU consider "far right" because until we have that frame of reference no one will understand what you are going on about?

    Of equal relevance, what do you consider "far left" - Labour, the Liberal Democrats, the Greens, the Conservative Party?
    Andy's definition of "far right" excludes Reform.

    Thus excluding the share of 4th of July Reform vote cast by far-right voters, for Farage and his platform which was significantly to the RIGHT of Marie LePen and her platform in France.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,850

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Latest polling average from Economist

    Harris 47.8%
    Trump 45.0%

    https://www.economist.com/interactive/us-2024-election/trump-harris-polls

    That is one stubborn 45%.
    IF Donald Trump had any sense AND stopped hyperventalating about the symptoms of just how badly he's "managed" his campaign AND "responded" to Biden > Harris, he'd realize he has a solid base and then some with voters.

    BUT as we already know, Trump's fragile ego can NOT deal with anything even approaching adversity.
    To be fair to him, has he not bounced back several times from situations than would have finished most politicians?
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,729
    kle4 said:

    I really really hope this is either made up or there is a lot more to this than there seems.

    3/ The court found that "In the year 2024, in the United States of America, in the State of California, in the City of Los Angeles, Jewish students were excluded from portions of the # UCLA campus because they refused to denounce their faith. This fact is so unimaginable and so abhorrent to our constitutional guarantee of religious freedom that it bears repeating,"

    https://nitter.poast.org/PrawfBainbridge/status/1823509810068996250#m

    We really do need to have a talk about how really antisemitic ideas have permeated a lot of 'progressive' spaces - Corbyn was a warning, but not the half of it. And I say that as someone who if he was American would crawl over broken glass to vote for Harris, and has never voted for a right-wing party ever. It's frightening.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548
    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,277
    I’d be astonished if there was a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas .

    His coalition won’t survive as extremists won’t support a ceasefire. If there’s no ceasefire then things could rapidly get worse with Iran attacking .

    Biden and the Dems don’t want an all out war and especially with the election don’t want to see oil prices spike . Indeed one could almost suspect Netenyahu wants to cause as much trouble for the WH in an effort to help Trump .

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    nico679 said:

    Trump added two trillion dollars to the national debt with his tax cuts . 83% of that new debt went to the top 1% , with scraps for the rest but the cult continues to believe he’s a man of the people and cares about the average Joe .

    And when it came to budget talks and especially on funding to Ukraine the GOP were suddenly worried about the debt.



    This being contituation of Cheney-Bush Administration policy of burdening generations yet unborn with their corporate and fatcat tax breaks.

    Key reason why most of the Bushies in business, government and other institutions went along - and have continued to go along - with Trump's MAGA makeover of the Republican Party. Occassional protestations from W (remember him?), Liz Cheney and other Bush politicos & apparatchiks NOTwithstanding.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,431
    edited August 14
    stodge said:

    I'm not sure what country it is Lee Anderson wants "back".

    It's not a country I recognise or would want to live in.

    That's part of the problem imo.

    If it is an emotional or imaginary construction, it is more difficult to oppose rationally. That's how the Daily Mail plays its narratives - reaching inside people and squeezing their gut bypasses the brain.

    He's selling an imagined (not even remembered) past that exists in the head, as a solution to "current problems" which he blames on 'multiculturalism', which then merges into blaming the "other" and racism by the back door.

    Think of advertising that leverages comforting images or those of grandma - the Bisto Family or the famous Hovis Advert.

    Here we understand the place of narrative, and profiled narrative, in political marketing / persuasion. That's part of the game.

    I'm not sure of Anderson entirely gets it; Farage certainly does.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548
    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,018
    Off topic: I've decide to give "likes" to some of those who describe the political bets they have made. Especially if they explain their thinking.

    Earlier, I had decided to give "likes" to those who admit errors. And still try to remember to do that, when I can.

    (I don't read all the comments; there are so many, and the signal-to-noise ratio is lower than I woudl prefer.)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,763
    Well.

    Pennsylvania Presidential Polling:

    Harris (D): 48%
    Trump (R): 45%
    Kennedy (I): 4%

    Quinnipiac / Aug 12, 2024 / n=1738


    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1823783322973053369
  • Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    I booked the time off work today for my very domestic walking holiday (the official route starts less than a mile from my front door) that I mentioned the other day. I'm going to try to walk to Sandbanks, via Lyme Regis, about 185 miles I think, in the week ending on October 1st

    I'll then stay with my family in Sandbanks for three nights before getting a lift back to Marlborough with them. That's a pretty green holiday: one sixty mile car journey that was happening anyway having my mass added to it

    I've realised that my Jamaican artist friend I mentioned last week lives about a day's walk in, so I might be able to stay at his place - so long as it's more than twenty five miles walk from home; I don't want to get behind on the first day

    And my father's best man, and my sister's godfather, lives in Dorchester. That's halfway between Lyme Regis and Poole, so perfect for my last night's stop. He's a retired GP who diagnosed me with TB fifteen years ago. Might have saved my life. He'll definitely put me up for the night

    So I might only have to pay for four nights in pubs/hotels/Airbnbs/campsites, or maybe more free nights in a tent. Looking at the route, it's mainly through villages; I think I'll be mostly eating and drinking in rural pubs. I should probably try to only drink real ale while walking, and taste as many as possible

    For anyone that missed it and is interested, this is the the link with the route to Lyme Regis on an OS map. Avebury is my first stop. It'll be a bit too early for.a pint though

    https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/show_path.php?path_name=Wessex+Ridgeway

    I'd be tempted to try to find am Abbotsbury -Hardy Monument -Maiden Castle route to Dorchester. Looked rather tempting last time we were there.
    Ooh thanks! I'll check that out

    Depends where your dad's friend lives, but if walking into central Dorchester it's a fair trek on tarmac from the west if you go direct-ish thanks to the bypass and the Royal Formerly Known as Prince Charles, unless pastiche architecture is your thing. The last time we tried to go from our B&B (halfway to Poundbury from the centre) to Maiden Castle all the paths had been cut bu the bypass and farmers. Maybe something has been done about that, but it could be that Maiden C to Dorchester is best by the southern quadrant of the town, along or near the Weymouth road. At least that way you could take in Maumbury Rings in south central Dorchester as well. Old Henge repurposed as barbarian Roman amphitheature and barbarian 18th century execution site IIRC. Tucked in between two railway lines.

    Our favourite walkies routes in/out are the NW radial (from the real Poundbury hill fort along the river valley and the Roman aqueduct ); and directly east under the road and along the river-ish path past Kingston Maurward House/ag coll (though we diverted to the north after a few miles to the old roman road and Hardy birthplace so can't say what it is like further).
    Thanks again!

    I'm not sure where Dave lives, but wherever it is I'll definitely try to follow that way
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 970
    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 33% (-2)
    CON: 24% (=)
    RFM: 18% (+3)
    LDM: 12% (-1)
    GRN: 8% (+1)
    SNP: 2% (-1)

    Via
    @BMGResearch
    , 5-7 Aug.
    Changes w/ GE2024.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,434
    Aslef 1 Starmer 0
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    Seems more like just another Trump MAGA-maniac madwomen, like that Colorado county clerk who just got convicted on 7 counts of tampering with her own county's voting technology. Or like Sidney Powell, DJT's crack (in one way anyway) legal eagle.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548

    Aslef 1 Starmer 0

    Public Sector Unions 2 Starner 0
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    I'm not sure what country it is Lee Anderson wants "back".

    It's not a country I recognise or would want to live in.

    That's part of the problem imo.

    If it is an emotional or imaginary construction, it is more difficult to oppose rationally. That's how the Daily Mail plays its narratives - reaching inside people and squeezing their gut bypasses the brain.

    He's selling an imagined (not even remembered) past that exists in the head, as a solution to "current problems" which he blames on 'multiculturalism', which then merges into blaming the "other" and racism by the back door.

    Think of advertising that leverages comforting images or those of grandma - the Bisto Family or the famous Hovis Advert.

    Here we understand the place of narrative, and profiled narrative, in political marketing / persuasion. That's part of the game.

    I'm not sure of Anderson entirely gets it; Farage certainly does.
    Well, yes. I'm old enough to have a romanticised view of what it was like to grow up in the 1960s and 1970s.

    Would I want to go back to that (almost) pre-industrial world? Of course not.

    I'm of Farage's generation (though not with his money or oratorical skills) but we both grew up in London in the 1970s. Maybe he remembers it different.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,729
    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    The problem is she's good copy and doesn't know it as she has absolutely no self-awareness. Like the Led By Donkeys thing was utterly boring midwittery - nicking someone else's good joke from two years ago and repeating it until it's incredibly tedious. If she'd laughed it off and told them to stop being childish, it would have been a jokey bottom of the bulletin item if that.

    As it is, she stomped off stage and started waffling on about how it was an attack on free speech, making her look ridiculous and giving every editor/producer a newsline and a reason to run it above duller, more worthy stories.
  • mercatormercator Posts: 815
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    I booked the time off work today for my very domestic walking holiday (the official route starts less than a mile from my front door) that I mentioned the other day. I'm going to try to walk to Sandbanks, via Lyme Regis, about 185 miles I think, in the week ending on October 1st

    I'll then stay with my family in Sandbanks for three nights before getting a lift back to Marlborough with them. That's a pretty green holiday: one sixty mile car journey that was happening anyway having my mass added to it

    I've realised that my Jamaican artist friend I mentioned last week lives about a day's walk in, so I might be able to stay at his place - so long as it's more than twenty five miles walk from home; I don't want to get behind on the first day

    And my father's best man, and my sister's godfather, lives in Dorchester. That's halfway between Lyme Regis and Poole, so perfect for my last night's stop. He's a retired GP who diagnosed me with TB fifteen years ago. Might have saved my life. He'll definitely put me up for the night

    So I might only have to pay for four nights in pubs/hotels/Airbnbs/campsites, or maybe more free nights in a tent. Looking at the route, it's mainly through villages; I think I'll be mostly eating and drinking in rural pubs. I should probably try to only drink real ale while walking, and taste as many as possible

    For anyone that missed it and is interested, this is the the link with the route to Lyme Regis on an OS map. Avebury is my first stop. It'll be a bit too early for.a pint though

    https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/show_path.php?path_name=Wessex+Ridgeway

    I'd be tempted to try to find am Abbotsbury -Hardy Monument -Maiden Castle route to Dorchester. Looked rather tempting last time we were there.
    Ooh thanks! I'll check that out

    Depends where your dad's friend lives, but if walking into central Dorchester it's a fair trek on tarmac from the west if you go direct-ish thanks to the bypass and the Royal Formerly Known as Prince Charles, unless pastiche architecture is your thing. The last time we tried to go from our B&B (halfway to Poundbury from the centre) to Maiden Castle all the paths had been cut bu the bypass and farmers. Maybe something has been done about that, but it could be that Maiden C to Dorchester is best by the southern quadrant of the town, along or near the Weymouth road. At least that way you could take in Maumbury Rings in south central Dorchester as well. Old Henge repurposed as barbarian Roman amphitheature and barbarian 18th century execution site IIRC. Tucked in between two railway lines.

    Our favourite walkies routes in/out are the NW radial (from the real Poundbury hill fort along the river valley and the Roman aqueduct ); and directly east under the road and along the river-ish path past Kingston Maurward House/ag coll (though we diverted to the north after a few miles to the old roman road and Hardy birthplace so can't say what it is like further).
    Disambiguation (for the general reader, I am sure you don't need telling)

    Hardy's monument is to Sir Thomas "kiss me" Hardy, whereas the birthplace is of the scribbling fellow.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Well.

    Pennsylvania Presidential Polling:

    Harris (D): 48%
    Trump (R): 45%
    Kennedy (I): 4%

    Quinnipiac / Aug 12, 2024 / n=1738


    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1823783322973053369

    FYI - Qunnipiac is pronounced "kwin-NIP-ee-ack".
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,347

    kinabalu said:

    From PT re Pre-Cog, it wasn't my intention for the question of whether the police should exploit tech to catch uninsured drivers to become conflated with the issues explored in the film Minority Report. I don't know why that happened and I'm sorry that it did.

    Fwiw, on reflection I think there's a tweak we can make (re Pre-Cog) that should satisfy the various critics (in particular Pagan). Which is, the perp is not punished. They haven't done the crime after all so why should they be? They are detained for an hour or so, tea and a biscuit, then sent on their way.

    They'll soon get sick of that happening every time they plan a gruesome murder.

    So, Kinabalu is out walking his cat (it's a big lad and needs the exercise.) You bump into Leon, who insults your pussy. In a fit of rage, you punch Leon. He's been in a posh restaurant and is a bit worse for wear, he bumps his swede and is stone cold dead.
    In your world, did you get a knock on your door and your collar felt just before you took your pussy out? You never planned the killing, so will your tech work?
    I'm in the clear there. Or rather I'm not. No plan so I'm not stopped and the crime happens. Jail for me, rather than a short 'tea and biscuits' detention. Leon dead rather than alive. Tragic.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,763

    Well.

    Pennsylvania Presidential Polling:

    Harris (D): 48%
    Trump (R): 45%
    Kennedy (I): 4%

    Quinnipiac / Aug 12, 2024 / n=1738


    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1823783322973053369

    FYI - Qunnipiac is pronounced "kwin-NIP-ee-ack".
    You Americans shouldn't be allowed to abuse the English language like this.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,180
    Nunu5 said:

    Westminster Voting Intention:

    LAB: 33% (-2)
    CON: 24% (=)
    RFM: 18% (+3)
    LDM: 12% (-1)
    GRN: 8% (+1)
    SNP: 2% (-1)

    Via
    @BMGResearch
    , 5-7 Aug.
    Changes w/ GE2024.

    At that rate we'll have Green/Lab crossover in between one and two years.

    :):):):):)
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927

    Aslef 1 Starmer 0

    Predictable but let's see the full detail before calling the game. The question is whether Mick Whelan can deliver the members and accept the deal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,347
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    From PT re Pre-Cog, it wasn't my intention for the question of whether the police should exploit tech to catch uninsured drivers to become conflated with the issues explored in the film Minority Report. I don't know why that happened and I'm sorry that it did.

    Fwiw, on reflection I think there's a tweak we can make (re Pre-Cog) that should satisfy the various critics (in particular Pagan). Which is, the perp is not punished. They haven't done the crime after all so why should they be? They are detained for an hour or so, tea and a biscuit, then sent on their way.

    They'll soon get sick of that happening every time they plan a gruesome murder.

    So, Kinabalu is out walking his cat (it's a big lad and needs the exercise.) You bump into Leon, who insults your pussy. In a fit of rage, you punch Leon. He's been in a posh restaurant and is a bit worse for wear, he bumps his swede and is stone cold dead.
    In your world, did you get a knock on your door and your collar felt just before you took your pussy out? You never planned the killing, so will your tech work?
    Surely the coppers in this case only need to innocently encounter the cat-walker before the incident, and delay him with compliments to his feline. Then it never happens.
    You mean like "Kinablu you have a beautiful pussy"?
    Pagan.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,729
    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    I'm not sure what country it is Lee Anderson wants "back".

    It's not a country I recognise or would want to live in.

    That's part of the problem imo.

    If it is an emotional or imaginary construction, it is more difficult to oppose rationally. That's how the Daily Mail plays its narratives - reaching inside people and squeezing their gut bypasses the brain.

    He's selling an imagined (not even remembered) past that exists in the head, as a solution to "current problems" which he blames on 'multiculturalism', which then merges into blaming the "other" and racism by the back door.

    Think of advertising that leverages comforting images or those of grandma - the Bisto Family or the famous Hovis Advert.

    Here we understand the place of narrative, and profiled narrative, in political marketing / persuasion. That's part of the game.

    I'm not sure of Anderson entirely gets it; Farage certainly does.
    I mean the unspoken bit is that they want a country where they are free from consequences as a certain type of unpleasant bloke often was in the past.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548
    MJW said:

    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    The problem is she's good copy and doesn't know it as she has absolutely no self-awareness. Like the Led By Donkeys thing was utterly boring midwittery - nicking someone else's good joke from two years ago and repeating it until it's incredibly tedious. If she'd laughed it off and told them to stop being childish, it would have been a jokey bottom of the bulletin item if that.

    As it is, she stomped off stage and started waffling on about how it was an attack on free speech, making her look ridiculous and giving every editor/producer a newsline and a reason to run it above duller, more worthy stories.
    Had she had any sense she’s have made light of it with a swift retort. Her po faced response just makes her a target for further nonsense.

    I guess with Led By Donkeys it was never about holding power to account but just some IPA drinking centrist Dad types thinking their being witty
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,658

    Well.

    Pennsylvania Presidential Polling:

    Harris (D): 48%
    Trump (R): 45%
    Kennedy (I): 4%

    Quinnipiac / Aug 12, 2024 / n=1738


    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1823783322973053369

    FYI - Qunnipiac is pronounced "kwin-NIP-ee-ack".
    You Americans shouldn't be allowed to abuse the English language like this.
    Suspect it's the original Americans at fault on this one.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    MJW said:

    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    The problem is she's good copy and doesn't know it as she has absolutely no self-awareness. Like the Led By Donkeys thing was utterly boring midwittery - nicking someone else's good joke from two years ago and repeating it until it's incredibly tedious. If she'd laughed it off and told them to stop being childish, it would have been a jokey bottom of the bulletin item if that.

    As it is, she stomped off stage and started waffling on about how it was an attack on free speech, making her look ridiculous and giving every editor/producer a newsline and a reason to run it above duller, more worthy stories.
    It would be interesting to see how the defeated Conservative, Labour and SNP MPs have come to terms with the ending of their political lives (permanent or temporary). Many defeated Conservative candidates haven't updated their websites - one or two have made statements of thanks.

    For some older MPs defeat probably means a graceful retirement. For others, perhaps Michelle Donelan, who is only 40, a comeback at the next election could be on the cards. If the likes of Tessa Munt and Andrew George can return to the Commons after nearly a decade, there's plenty of time for Donelan if she wants another round of political life.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,548

    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    Seems more like just another Trump MAGA-maniac madwomen, like that Colorado county clerk who just got convicted on 7 counts of tampering with her own county's voting technology. Or like Sidney Powell, DJT's crack (in one way anyway) legal eagle.
    The original I’m Alan Partridge was about a character who once had fame and relevance and lost it very quickly and was trying to remain relevant and keep being noticed in a world that had moved on and was not interested.

    That’s pretty much Truss now.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 43,016
    mercator said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    I booked the time off work today for my very domestic walking holiday (the official route starts less than a mile from my front door) that I mentioned the other day. I'm going to try to walk to Sandbanks, via Lyme Regis, about 185 miles I think, in the week ending on October 1st

    I'll then stay with my family in Sandbanks for three nights before getting a lift back to Marlborough with them. That's a pretty green holiday: one sixty mile car journey that was happening anyway having my mass added to it

    I've realised that my Jamaican artist friend I mentioned last week lives about a day's walk in, so I might be able to stay at his place - so long as it's more than twenty five miles walk from home; I don't want to get behind on the first day

    And my father's best man, and my sister's godfather, lives in Dorchester. That's halfway between Lyme Regis and Poole, so perfect for my last night's stop. He's a retired GP who diagnosed me with TB fifteen years ago. Might have saved my life. He'll definitely put me up for the night

    So I might only have to pay for four nights in pubs/hotels/Airbnbs/campsites, or maybe more free nights in a tent. Looking at the route, it's mainly through villages; I think I'll be mostly eating and drinking in rural pubs. I should probably try to only drink real ale while walking, and taste as many as possible

    For anyone that missed it and is interested, this is the the link with the route to Lyme Regis on an OS map. Avebury is my first stop. It'll be a bit too early for.a pint though

    https://ldwa.org.uk/ldp/members/show_path.php?path_name=Wessex+Ridgeway

    I'd be tempted to try to find am Abbotsbury -Hardy Monument -Maiden Castle route to Dorchester. Looked rather tempting last time we were there.
    Ooh thanks! I'll check that out

    Depends where your dad's friend lives, but if walking into central Dorchester it's a fair trek on tarmac from the west if you go direct-ish thanks to the bypass and the Royal Formerly Known as Prince Charles, unless pastiche architecture is your thing. The last time we tried to go from our B&B (halfway to Poundbury from the centre) to Maiden Castle all the paths had been cut bu the bypass and farmers. Maybe something has been done about that, but it could be that Maiden C to Dorchester is best by the southern quadrant of the town, along or near the Weymouth road. At least that way you could take in Maumbury Rings in south central Dorchester as well. Old Henge repurposed as barbarian Roman amphitheature and barbarian 18th century execution site IIRC. Tucked in between two railway lines.

    Our favourite walkies routes in/out are the NW radial (from the real Poundbury hill fort along the river valley and the Roman aqueduct ); and directly east under the road and along the river-ish path past Kingston Maurward House/ag coll (though we diverted to the north after a few miles to the old roman road and Hardy birthplace so can't say what it is like further).
    Disambiguation (for the general reader, I am sure you don't need telling)

    Hardy's monument is to Sir Thomas "kiss me" Hardy, whereas the birthplace is of the scribbling fellow.
    Oops, thanks! That's very interesting. I am even more minded to go and see it now as I may be able to see Max Gate, Thos H's house, as well this autumn.
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541

    Well.

    Pennsylvania Presidential Polling:

    Harris (D): 48%
    Trump (R): 45%
    Kennedy (I): 4%

    Quinnipiac / Aug 12, 2024 / n=1738


    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1823783322973053369

    FYI - Qunnipiac is pronounced "kwin-NIP-ee-ack".
    Just the road from where my wife’s from. She was offered a job in their English Department but elected to stay at the University of New Haven. No, not Yale, a somewhat less prestigious insidious in, erm, East Haven.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,881
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    From PT re Pre-Cog, it wasn't my intention for the question of whether the police should exploit tech to catch uninsured drivers to become conflated with the issues explored in the film Minority Report. I don't know why that happened and I'm sorry that it did.

    Fwiw, on reflection I think there's a tweak we can make (re Pre-Cog) that should satisfy the various critics (in particular Pagan). Which is, the perp is not punished. They haven't done the crime after all so why should they be? They are detained for an hour or so, tea and a biscuit, then sent on their way.

    They'll soon get sick of that happening every time they plan a gruesome murder.

    So, Kinabalu is out walking his cat (it's a big lad and needs the exercise.) You bump into Leon, who insults your pussy. In a fit of rage, you punch Leon. He's been in a posh restaurant and is a bit worse for wear, he bumps his swede and is stone cold dead.
    In your world, did you get a knock on your door and your collar felt just before you took your pussy out? You never planned the killing, so will your tech work?
    Surely the coppers in this case only need to innocently encounter the cat-walker before the incident, and delay him with compliments to his feline. Then it never happens.
    You mean like "Kinablu you have a beautiful pussy"?
    Pagan.
    Sorry I came over all "Are you being served" for just a moment :)
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Well.

    Pennsylvania Presidential Polling:

    Harris (D): 48%
    Trump (R): 45%
    Kennedy (I): 4%

    Quinnipiac / Aug 12, 2024 / n=1738


    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1823783322973053369

    FYI - Qunnipiac is pronounced "kwin-NIP-ee-ack".
    You Americans shouldn't be allowed to abuse the English language like this.
    All that's left of the Quinnipiac people is their name . . . and YOU begrude them even that.

    Sir, Madam or Whatever - HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinnipiac

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinnipiac_University
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,763

    Well.

    Pennsylvania Presidential Polling:

    Harris (D): 48%
    Trump (R): 45%
    Kennedy (I): 4%

    Quinnipiac / Aug 12, 2024 / n=1738


    https://x.com/USA_Polling/status/1823783322973053369

    FYI - Qunnipiac is pronounced "kwin-NIP-ee-ack".
    You Americans shouldn't be allowed to abuse the English language like this.
    All that's left of the Quinnipiac people is their name . . . and YOU begrude them even that.

    Sir, Madam or Whatever - HAVE YOU NO SHAME?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinnipiac

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinnipiac_University
    I have no sense of shame or decency, that way my other senses are enhanced.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,729
    Taz said:

    MJW said:

    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    The problem is she's good copy and doesn't know it as she has absolutely no self-awareness. Like the Led By Donkeys thing was utterly boring midwittery - nicking someone else's good joke from two years ago and repeating it until it's incredibly tedious. If she'd laughed it off and told them to stop being childish, it would have been a jokey bottom of the bulletin item if that.

    As it is, she stomped off stage and started waffling on about how it was an attack on free speech, making her look ridiculous and giving every editor/producer a newsline and a reason to run it above duller, more worthy stories.
    Had she had any sense she’s have made light of it with a swift retort. Her po faced response just makes her a target for further nonsense.

    I guess with Led By Donkeys it was never about holding power to account but just some IPA drinking centrist Dad types thinking their being witty
    I mean that's it - though I think are to the left of the 'centrist dad' stereotype. Mainly though with a lot of performative activist stuff it starts out as something genuinely heartfelt and worthwhile in some way. Then those doing it discover it's much more fun than a proper job, and that people will pay them to do it via crowdfunding. So they keep doing it and have to keep finding ways to justify the activism, long after it ceased to be useful.

    In LBD's case it was highlighting that Brexiteer politicians had done some grotesque about turns, and that pro-Europeans at that time felt badly shut out of a Brexit debate that was still ongoing, given the Tories were avowedly pro-Brexit and Labour just wanted it all to go away.

    But yeah. Long outlived what humour there was, or its point.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,431
    edited August 14

    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    Seems more like just another Trump MAGA-maniac madwomen, like that Colorado county clerk who just got convicted on 7 counts of tampering with her own county's voting technology. Or like Sidney Powell, DJT's crack (in one way anyway) legal eagle.
    TBF to Truss, she's not a Kari Lake or a Margery Taylor-Greene.

    Though there is her exit interview from Lettuce and Lovage (Dame Maggie Smith, I think):
    https://youtu.be/C7V3-EIAt-s?t=40
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,780
    edited August 14
    Genuinely proud that GERS is the 10th highest trending topic in the UK. 10 years later and indyref still lights a fire under political message boards across the country.

    The really important story is hidden away. Scotland, outside of London, is actually one of the best performing parts of the UK. The rest of the country... it's a disaster, frankly.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,478
    MattW said:

    kamski said:

    MattW said:

    Brains Trust.

    This is far righters at I think the Tommy Robinson demo, chanting "we want our country back."

    Can anyone help me with the symbology / organisations.

    I can see the Union Flag, England Flag.

    What is the Black top/White bottom flag with the red maltese(?) cross central?

    What is the "British Youth" Union Flag. I think the middle slogan is Christ is King, which is the current far right Christian Nationalist shtick.

    Thanks. I'm looking into the "I want my country back" slogan which has been all over Lee Anderson's social media channels for weeks.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=38

    Knights Templar were crusaders?
    Knights Templar Battle Flag.

    Thank-you.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar#/media/File:Bandeira_Templária.svg
    So it's explicitly anti-Islamic?

    Not really a surprise, but still shocking to see that happening in the middle of London. The comments on that video are horrifying too.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,478
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Brains Trust.

    This is far righters at I think the Tommy Robinson demo, chanting "we want our country back."

    Can anyone help me with the symbology / organisations.

    I can see the Union Flag, England Flag.

    What is the Black top/White bottom flag with the red maltese(?) cross central?

    What is the "British Youth" Union Flag. I think the middle slogan is Christ is King, which is the current far right Christian Nationalist shtick.

    Thanks. I'm looking into the "I want my country back" slogan which has been all over Lee Anderson's social media channels for weeks.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=38

    They’re certainly followers of the British Union Flag.
    There's also a St Patrick's Saltire, and I think a normal Saltire with imposed (I think) central Red Hand of Ulster. I have not seen the latter previously.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=6
    Likely a variant of the Ulster Third Way flag - third way in this case being the fascist variant, rather than the 1990s New Labour slogan.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    From PT re Pre-Cog, it wasn't my intention for the question of whether the police should exploit tech to catch uninsured drivers to become conflated with the issues explored in the film Minority Report. I don't know why that happened and I'm sorry that it did.

    Fwiw, on reflection I think there's a tweak we can make (re Pre-Cog) that should satisfy the various critics (in particular Pagan). Which is, the perp is not punished. They haven't done the crime after all so why should they be? They are detained for an hour or so, tea and a biscuit, then sent on their way.

    They'll soon get sick of that happening every time they plan a gruesome murder.

    So, Kinabalu is out walking his cat (it's a big lad and needs the exercise.) You bump into Leon, who insults your pussy. In a fit of rage, you punch Leon. He's been in a posh restaurant and is a bit worse for wear, he bumps his swede and is stone cold dead.
    In your world, did you get a knock on your door and your collar felt just before you took your pussy out? You never planned the killing, so will your tech work?
    Surely the coppers in this case only need to innocently encounter the cat-walker before the incident, and delay him with compliments to his feline. Then it never happens.
    You mean like "Kinablu you have a beautiful pussy"?
    Pagan.
    Sorry I came over all "Are you being served" for just a moment :)
    I hope Are you being served is a tolerant sort of person.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,481

    nico679 said:

    Trump added two trillion dollars to the national debt with his tax cuts . 83% of that new debt went to the top 1% , with scraps for the rest but the cult continues to believe he’s a man of the people and cares about the average Joe .

    And when it came to budget talks and especially on funding to Ukraine the GOP were suddenly worried about the debt.



    This being contituation of Cheney-Bush Administration policy of burdening generations yet unborn with their corporate and fatcat tax breaks.

    Key reason why most of the Bushies in business, government and other institutions went along - and have continued to go along - with Trump's MAGA makeover of the Republican Party. Occassional protestations from W (remember him?), Liz Cheney and other Bush politicos & apparatchiks NOTwithstanding.
    They also set back significant action on climate change by a good decade or so (which likely also then contributed to China's current lead in renewables).

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_H._Sununu
    ... In his report Losing Earth: The Decade We Almost Stopped Climate Change, Nathaniel Rich wrote that in November 1989 Sununu prevented the signing of a 67-nation commitment at the Noordwijk Climate Conference to freeze carbon dioxide emissions, with a reduction of 20 percent by 2005, and singled him out as a force starting coordinated efforts to bewilder the public on the topic of global warming and changing it from an urgent, nonpartisan and unimpeachable issue to a political one...
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,293
    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kinabalu said:

    From PT re Pre-Cog, it wasn't my intention for the question of whether the police should exploit tech to catch uninsured drivers to become conflated with the issues explored in the film Minority Report. I don't know why that happened and I'm sorry that it did.

    Fwiw, on reflection I think there's a tweak we can make (re Pre-Cog) that should satisfy the various critics (in particular Pagan). Which is, the perp is not punished. They haven't done the crime after all so why should they be? They are detained for an hour or so, tea and a biscuit, then sent on their way.

    They'll soon get sick of that happening every time they plan a gruesome murder.

    So, Kinabalu is out walking his cat (it's a big lad and needs the exercise.) You bump into Leon, who insults your pussy. In a fit of rage, you punch Leon. He's been in a posh restaurant and is a bit worse for wear, he bumps his swede and is stone cold dead.
    In your world, did you get a knock on your door and your collar felt just before you took your pussy out? You never planned the killing, so will your tech work?
    Surely the coppers in this case only need to innocently encounter the cat-walker before the incident, and delay him with compliments to his feline. Then it never happens.
    You mean like "Kinablu you have a beautiful pussy"?
    Pagan.
    Sorry I came over all "Are you being served" for just a moment :)
    Ground floor, poofters
    Always taking inside legs
    Mincing round with silver hair
    And camping up like fairies
    Going up...


    https://youtu.be/A1THgABWUxw
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,481
    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    I'm not sure what country it is Lee Anderson wants "back".

    It's not a country I recognise or would want to live in.

    That's part of the problem imo.

    If it is an emotional or imaginary construction, it is more difficult to oppose rationally. That's how the Daily Mail plays its narratives - reaching inside people and squeezing their gut bypasses the brain.

    He's selling an imagined (not even remembered) past that exists in the head, as a solution to "current problems" which he blames on 'multiculturalism', which then merges into blaming the "other" and racism by the back door.

    Think of advertising that leverages comforting images or those of grandma - the Bisto Family or the famous Hovis Advert.

    Here we understand the place of narrative, and profiled narrative, in political marketing / persuasion. That's part of the game.

    I'm not sure of Anderson entirely gets it; Farage certainly does.
    Well, yes. I'm old enough to have a romanticised view of what it was like to grow up in the 1960s and 1970s.

    Would I want to go back to that (almost) pre-industrial world? Of course not.

    I'm of Farage's generation (though not with his money or oratorical skills) but we both grew up in London in the 1970s. Maybe he remembers it different.
    Actually, as far as Britain was concerned, it was more the pre post-industrial world.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,045
    I know how PB loves US hot takes on British society & culture. Here’s a particularly good one.

    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1823700485955629206?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,927
    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    If you then consider all the main British political parties to be of a similar vein, what would you look for in a Party to mark it as distinct and (perhaps) worthy of your support?

    There seems on here to be a strong conservative voice which feels politically homeless now - by conservative I mean "small state" so lower taxes and cuts in spending.

    The problem is we cannot afford a "small state". Small state works when the economy is growing and the tax revenues generated allow the public finances to be kept either in balance or surplus. With weaker growth, it becomes much harder to balance the bookes without resorting to either tax rises or damaging spending cuts.
  • AlsoLeiAlsoLei Posts: 1,478
    Taz said:

    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61

    We've had routine vaccination in the UK for those most likely to be at risk for the past two years, and is currently offered alongside HIV PrEP and the like. PEP seems to be effective, and is also commonly available. I believe contact tracing is still active as a result of the 2022-23 outbreaks in London and Manchester.

    It's still worrying, especially in countries with less effective health systems - but it shouldn't pose much of a problem for the UK (I hope!)
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,676
    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    My comment is that in France and Germany they got where they are by starting from where they were. I don't wish to see that happen here, and I think RefUK, and certain elements or former elements of the Tories, may be attempting to mainstream the far right - either deliberately or to try and save themselves.

    That's what I think Lee Anderson may be doing - in Ashfield and certain neighbouring areas that is dog whistling to the old Right of Conservative vote, from UKIP out to BNP.

    On SM I'm seeing an overlap between RefUK commentators and Trump-types, and it's a concern that we may get more of elements of the crusader type narrative adopted as a fake cultural icon.

    Here's what can happen when individuals swallow the message without thinking, and are groomed, for a moment or more permanently, into values they did not previously hold.

    A woman who called on Facebook for a mosque to "be blown up with the adults inside" has been jailed for 15 months.

    Julie Sweeney, 53, of Cheshire, admitted a charge of sending a communication threatening death or serious harm, when she appeared at Chester Crown Court.

    Sweeney, from Church Lawton near Alsager, posted the comment after riots flared across England in the wake of the killings of three young girls in Southport, last month.

    The court heard she was responding to an online post picturing people helping to repair the mosque in Southport after it was damaged during violent disorder that followed the stabbings.

    The court was told Sweeney wrote: "It’s absolutely ridiculous. Don’t protect the mosque. Blow the mosque up with the adults in it."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz6x105wgz5o
    Interesting sentence. Feels on the high side to me, despite horrific content. I think I am getting out of date. Keyboard warriors look out.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    AlsoLei said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Brains Trust.

    This is far righters at I think the Tommy Robinson demo, chanting "we want our country back."

    Can anyone help me with the symbology / organisations.

    I can see the Union Flag, England Flag.

    What is the Black top/White bottom flag with the red maltese(?) cross central?

    What is the "British Youth" Union Flag. I think the middle slogan is Christ is King, which is the current far right Christian Nationalist shtick.

    Thanks. I'm looking into the "I want my country back" slogan which has been all over Lee Anderson's social media channels for weeks.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=38

    They’re certainly followers of the British Union Flag.
    There's also a St Patrick's Saltire, and I think a normal Saltire with imposed (I think) central Red Hand of Ulster. I have not seen the latter previously.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=6
    Likely a variant of the Ulster Third Way flag - third way in this case being the fascist variant, rather than the 1990s New Labour slogan.
    When New Labour started using that, I did laugh

    Moeller van den Bruck was going to call his book the Third Way. Until his publisher persuaded him The Third State sounded snappier.

    Was in common use in the 20s and 30s - not Capitalism, not Communism, but a Third Way…
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513
    AlsoLei said:

    Taz said:

    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61

    We've had routine vaccination in the UK for those most likely to be at risk for the past two years, and is currently offered alongside HIV PrEP and the like. PEP seems to be effective, and is also commonly available. I believe contact tracing is still active as a result of the 2022-23 outbreaks in London and Manchester.

    It's still worrying, especially in countries with less effective health systems - but it shouldn't pose much of a problem for the UK (I hope!)
    And it’s only contagious when symptomatic (e.g. pox lesions etc). The killer for Covid was the asymptomatic and presymptomatic spread. If you had wanted to design a virus for being hard to contain by isolation of cases, that’s the number one feature you’d put in.
  • KnightOutKnightOut Posts: 144
    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.

    It's quite possibly /because/ we don't have an actual 'far right' movement that the left feel the need to demonize those on the populist right (who may very well have any number of demonstrably left-wing ideals) by using the prejorative term as a slur.

    But the real villain here is post-war Soviet propaganda which effectively and successfully conflated Fascism, Evil and simply being Right-wing in the collective mind.

    McCarthyism did the same sort of thing to demonize the Left, of course, but it hasn't really stuck in the same way. One seldom hears this sort of rhetoric about the threat posed by Communists or the Far Left.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,541
    algarkirk said:

    MattW said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    My comment is that in France and Germany they got where they are by starting from where they were. I don't wish to see that happen here, and I think RefUK, and certain elements or former elements of the Tories, may be attempting to mainstream the far right - either deliberately or to try and save themselves.

    That's what I think Lee Anderson may be doing - in Ashfield and certain neighbouring areas that is dog whistling to the old Right of Conservative vote, from UKIP out to BNP.

    On SM I'm seeing an overlap between RefUK commentators and Trump-types, and it's a concern that we may get more of elements of the crusader type narrative adopted as a fake cultural icon.

    Here's what can happen when individuals swallow the message without thinking, and are groomed, for a moment or more permanently, into values they did not previously hold.

    A woman who called on Facebook for a mosque to "be blown up with the adults inside" has been jailed for 15 months.

    Julie Sweeney, 53, of Cheshire, admitted a charge of sending a communication threatening death or serious harm, when she appeared at Chester Crown Court.

    Sweeney, from Church Lawton near Alsager, posted the comment after riots flared across England in the wake of the killings of three young girls in Southport, last month.

    The court heard she was responding to an online post picturing people helping to repair the mosque in Southport after it was damaged during violent disorder that followed the stabbings.

    The court was told Sweeney wrote: "It’s absolutely ridiculous. Don’t protect the mosque. Blow the mosque up with the adults in it."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz6x105wgz5o
    Interesting sentence. Feels on the high side to me, despite horrific content. I think I am getting out of date. Keyboard warriors look out.
    Again, context.

    Sending such stuff when people are literally setting hotels on fire. For racist reasons….
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,780
    Taz said:

    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61

    Mpox outbreaks often start in wet markets, of course.

    OR DO THEY?!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,815
    edited August 14
    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    The point is that about a third of Reform voters supported the racist rioters, so whatever the party’s policies Reform do have a significant far right following.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,547
    edited August 14
    stodge said:

    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    If you then consider all the main British political parties to be of a similar vein, what would you look for in a Party to mark it as distinct and (perhaps) worthy of your support?

    There seems on here to be a strong conservative voice which feels politically homeless now - by conservative I mean "small state" so lower taxes and cuts in spending.

    The problem is we cannot afford a "small state". Small state works when the economy is growing and the tax revenues generated allow the public finances to be kept either in balance or surplus. With weaker growth, it becomes much harder to balance the bookes without resorting to either tax rises or damaging spending cuts.
    That's a circular argument. A growing state, with a largely unproductive part demanding more in tax from the productive part, limits and eventually reverses economic growth. Eventually the size of the state has to match the size of the tax base.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,780
    edited August 14
    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    I suppose the government/BBC would also be criticised if they called them "racist riots" or "neo-nazi uprising". You'd have all the usual suspects complaining about hyperbole.

    Can't win. Far-right is probably the safest option, even if it unfairly conflates the genteel Reform voter with rioters.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    stodge said:

    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    If you then consider all the main British political parties to be of a similar vein, what would you look for in a Party to mark it as distinct and (perhaps) worthy of your support?

    There seems on here to be a strong conservative voice which feels politically homeless now - by conservative I mean "small state" so lower taxes and cuts in spending.

    The problem is we cannot afford a "small state". Small state works when the economy is growing and the tax revenues generated allow the public finances to be kept either in balance or surplus. With weaker growth, it becomes much harder to balance the bookes without resorting to either tax rises or damaging spending cuts.
    These are interesting questions. I generally just see hazards with all the options, so go for the safest one, this time around it was the labour party. Trump v Harris is a genuinely difficult one that fortunately I don't have to make. The issues are obvious with Trump but I don't think people really see the enormity of the potential problems with Harris and the Democrats.

    Notwithstanding all that, I am receptive to the idea that something needs to change fundamentally, so could be persuaded by a start up party, one with totally different ideas to the mainstream.

    I think the 'small state' idea is dead, it was disproved by the pandemic. There are legitimate questions though as to what the state should do however.

  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,780

    stodge said:

    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    If you then consider all the main British political parties to be of a similar vein, what would you look for in a Party to mark it as distinct and (perhaps) worthy of your support?

    There seems on here to be a strong conservative voice which feels politically homeless now - by conservative I mean "small state" so lower taxes and cuts in spending.

    The problem is we cannot afford a "small state". Small state works when the economy is growing and the tax revenues generated allow the public finances to be kept either in balance or surplus. With weaker growth, it becomes much harder to balance the bookes without resorting to either tax rises or damaging spending cuts.
    That's a circular argument. A growing state, with a largely unproductive part demanding more in tax from the productive part, limits and eventually reverses economic growth. Eventually the size of the state has to match the size of the tax base.
    Productivity growth has been weak everywhere since 2008, not just in the public sector.

    You might argue that is because there hasn't been a large public investment in the economy, with things like HS2, Northern Powerhouse rail, "levelling up". Or that people in the UK have not been educated properly, or that their health is not good enough to properly contribute to the economy.

    We could increase taxation to French levels and spend 12% of GDP on infrastructure without touching current spending.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,845
    Taz said:

    Taz said:

    tlg86 said:

    The Sky News reporter covering the Liz Truss "story" at lunch today was struggling to come up with an angle for why this was newsworthy. He mentioned security, but you could tell he knew that wasn't why it was getting air time.

    They were covering some love island couple who have separated as well, today. Barrel scraping.

    The media seems obsessed with Truss, who seems an Alan Partridgesque figure now, and her life after politics. Probably infested with similar people to those Led By Donkeys clowns.
    Seems more like just another Trump MAGA-maniac madwomen, like that Colorado county clerk who just got convicted on 7 counts of tampering with her own county's voting technology. Or like Sidney Powell, DJT's crack (in one way anyway) legal eagle.
    The original I’m Alan Partridge was about a character who once had fame and relevance and lost it very quickly and was trying to remain relevant and keep being noticed in a world that had moved on and was not interested.

    That’s pretty much Truss now.
    Thankfully already Norfolk-based. Hot takes on the one way system (code for 'the woke') incoming.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,547
    darkage said:

    stodge said:

    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    If you then consider all the main British political parties to be of a similar vein, what would you look for in a Party to mark it as distinct and (perhaps) worthy of your support?

    There seems on here to be a strong conservative voice which feels politically homeless now - by conservative I mean "small state" so lower taxes and cuts in spending.

    The problem is we cannot afford a "small state". Small state works when the economy is growing and the tax revenues generated allow the public finances to be kept either in balance or surplus. With weaker growth, it becomes much harder to balance the bookes without resorting to either tax rises or damaging spending cuts.
    These are interesting questions. I generally just see hazards with all the options, so go for the safest one, this time around it was the labour party. Trump v Harris is a genuinely difficult one that fortunately I don't have to make. The issues are obvious with Trump but I don't think people really see the enormity of the potential problems with Harris and the Democrats.

    Notwithstanding all that, I am receptive to the idea that something needs to change fundamentally, so could be persuaded by a start up party, one with totally different ideas to the mainstream.

    I think the 'small state' idea is dead, it was disproved by the pandemic. There are legitimate questions though as to what the state should do however.

    An odd takeaway from my perspective.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,658

    I know how PB loves US hot takes on British society & culture. Here’s a particularly good one.

    https://x.com/mattyglesias/status/1823700485955629206?s=61&t=LYVEHh2mqFy1oUJAdCfe-Q

    Deranged.

    (Although a 40 year old Turing shagging a 19 year old, which is what he was done for, is right on the edge of moral, by today's standards - gender aside.)
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 3,018
    What happened to CO2 emissions in the US while George W. Bush as president? They peaked and began falling: https://www.statista.com/statistics/183943/us-carbon-dioxide-emissions-from-1999/

    Incidentally, Bush did argue for more nuclear power, in part to reduce CO2 emissions. (He might have done even more were it not for the resistance of Greens to our safest, cleanest source of eletrcity.)

    Are there other Bush poliices that helped reduce emissions? Yes, for example, the efficiency standards on appliances.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,845
    Taz said:

    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61

    You think it's a coincidence? Or... did he know....?!
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,431
    edited August 14
    AlsoLei said:

    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    Brains Trust.

    This is far righters at I think the Tommy Robinson demo, chanting "we want our country back."

    Can anyone help me with the symbology / organisations.

    I can see the Union Flag, England Flag.

    What is the Black top/White bottom flag with the red maltese(?) cross central?

    What is the "British Youth" Union Flag. I think the middle slogan is Christ is King, which is the current far right Christian Nationalist shtick.

    Thanks. I'm looking into the "I want my country back" slogan which has been all over Lee Anderson's social media channels for weeks.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=38

    They’re certainly followers of the British Union Flag.
    There's also a St Patrick's Saltire, and I think a normal Saltire with imposed (I think) central Red Hand of Ulster. I have not seen the latter previously.

    https://youtu.be/eQhLMSlf_R8?t=6
    Likely a variant of the Ulster Third Way flag - third way in this case being the fascist variant, rather than the 1990s New Labour slogan.
    Possibly, although the St Andrew's Cross is white, not red, in the vid.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,912
    Probably not true, but it'd be interesting if it is:

    "The Ukrainian Armed Forces have carried out a large scale air assault, landing troops by helicopter in the area of Lgov behind Ruzzian lines."

    https://x.com/osinterer/status/1823738897136017725

    Sounds slightly ridiculous. but Ukrainian helicopter pilots performed near-miracles in resupplying Mariupol in the early days of the war.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Eabhal said:

    Taz said:

    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61

    Mpox outbreaks often start in wet markets, of course.

    OR DO THEY?!
    Just how many DRY markets, are currently be opened/acquired/managed by AI-wielding space aliens?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,951
    edited August 14
    Taz said:

    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61

    Of all the reasons for Leon to flounce, I did not have 'cats' on my list of possibles.

    I mean, he did live tweet his experience of eating barbecued dog in Vietnam, but that just made me even more sure he was a cat person.

    Even Tony Soprano liked ducks.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,547
    Eabhal said:

    stodge said:

    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    If you then consider all the main British political parties to be of a similar vein, what would you look for in a Party to mark it as distinct and (perhaps) worthy of your support?

    There seems on here to be a strong conservative voice which feels politically homeless now - by conservative I mean "small state" so lower taxes and cuts in spending.

    The problem is we cannot afford a "small state". Small state works when the economy is growing and the tax revenues generated allow the public finances to be kept either in balance or surplus. With weaker growth, it becomes much harder to balance the bookes without resorting to either tax rises or damaging spending cuts.
    That's a circular argument. A growing state, with a largely unproductive part demanding more in tax from the productive part, limits and eventually reverses economic growth. Eventually the size of the state has to match the size of the tax base.
    Productivity growth has been weak everywhere since 2008, not just in the public sector.

    You might argue that is because there hasn't been a large public investment in the economy, with things like HS2, Northern Powerhouse rail, "levelling up". Or that people in the UK have not been educated properly, or that their health is not good enough to properly contribute to the economy.

    We could increase taxation to French levels and spend 12% of GDP on infrastructure without touching current spending.
    Public sector productivity isn't the same as being 'the productive sector' - by the productive sector I mean the wealth creating sector. Take more and more away from that via taxation, regulation, green levies etc., and give it to the state, and eventually you kill the wealth creation that feeds the state.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,881
    kyf_100 said:

    Taz said:

    Shame @Leon is no longer here. This could be ‘brace brace’

    WHO sounds alarm on MPox.

    https://x.com/skynews/status/1823775307981021290?s=61

    Of all the reasons for Leon to flounce, I did not have 'cats' on my list of possibles.

    I mean, he did live tweet his experience of eating barbecued dog in Vietnam, but that just made me even more sure he was a cat person.

    Even Tony Soprano liked ducks.
    Euw ducks are the true nazi's if there is any animal that is, their one redeeming factor being they taste nice with orange, plum or lemon sauces
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,513
    In other news, Sean T now has a substack. Can only suggest those missing Leon’s inane warblings head to this for something equally deranged…
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,398
    Foxy said:

    darkage said:

    Andy_JS said:

    If the far-right is such a significant force in the UK, why did far-right parties get pretty much zero votes at the election, due to the fact that no far-right parties put up candidates, (unless you include Heritage which got about 0.02%). By contrast, the far-right got 33% and 37% in the two rounds of the French election.

    Yes - in the UK, there aren't really any true 'far right' parties, because they don't exist. I think they are proscribed.

    This term ('far right') is more often used as a way of associating something someone doesn't like, with something evil (fascism) - sort of a rhetorical trick. Its use is often revealing of the politics on the part of the person involved, they are probably part of the 'liberal elite'.

    Looking at the Reform party, and reading its manifesto, its ideas are not very radical, they seem to me to be part of the political mainstream. I'm saying that in all honesty, not to try and shock people. I don't see much real difference between Labour and the Reform party, other than the labour manifesto is perhaps more realistic and deliverable.
    The point is that about a third of Reform voters supported the racist rioters, so whatever the party’s policies Reform do have a significant far right following.

    https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/50257-the-public-reaction-to-the-2024-riots

    I don't put much weight on that polling. It reveals about 20% of reform voters support 'unrest' , whatever that means. It just isn't the same as asking them if they 'support the racist rioters'.


  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,756
    Nigelb said:

    stodge said:

    MattW said:

    stodge said:

    I'm not sure what country it is Lee Anderson wants "back".

    It's not a country I recognise or would want to live in.

    That's part of the problem imo.

    If it is an emotional or imaginary construction, it is more difficult to oppose rationally. That's how the Daily Mail plays its narratives - reaching inside people and squeezing their gut bypasses the brain.

    He's selling an imagined (not even remembered) past that exists in the head, as a solution to "current problems" which he blames on 'multiculturalism', which then merges into blaming the "other" and racism by the back door.

    Think of advertising that leverages comforting images or those of grandma - the Bisto Family or the famous Hovis Advert.

    Here we understand the place of narrative, and profiled narrative, in political marketing / persuasion. That's part of the game.

    I'm not sure of Anderson entirely gets it; Farage certainly does.
    Well, yes. I'm old enough to have a romanticised view of what it was like to grow up in the 1960s and 1970s.

    Would I want to go back to that (almost) pre-industrial world? Of course not.

    I'm of Farage's generation (though not with his money or oratorical skills) but we both grew up in London in the 1970s. Maybe he remembers it different.
    Actually, as far as Britain was concerned, it was more the pre post-industrial world.
    Nah, it was definitely the post-pre-post-industrial world by then.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,658

    In other news, Sean T now has a substack. Can only suggest those missing Leon’s inane warblings head to this for something equally deranged…

    He'll be back here to try his ideas out then!
This discussion has been closed.