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Kemi Badenoch remains the favourite to succeed Sunak – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,050
edited August 26 in General
imageKemi Badenoch remains the favourite to succeed Sunak – politicalbetting.com

I still think this is Robert Jenrick’s election to lose but James Cleverly remains a value bet in my view, I have found Tom Tugendhat’s campaign underwhelming and both Cleverly and Mel Stride could pick up the support that people thought would go to Tom Tugendhat.

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Comments

  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,766
    First. If Jenrick gets through to the final two, he will win.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,373

    First. If Jenrick gets through to the final two, he will win.

    Could be close with the members if it's Jenrick v Badenoch.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.

    That's made me switch to Cleverly if Tugendhat doesn't make it.
    I don't have a vote because I have never been in the party but I have to say that the choices available are not particularly inspiring. Its going to be a long and potentially hazardous haul before some new talent and new ideas break through. Where are the Camerons and Osbornes of today? Are they even in Parliament yet?
  • eekeek Posts: 27,493
    I know we were talking about Matt Goodwin earlier. He's put a post up saying why he left the university of Kent https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1822987249899749874

    Now I may not like the guy - and he's trying to all things to all people at the moment but the idea he didn't willingly leave the University of Kent is for the birds - he knows how screwed uni finances are...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Interesting article as to whether or not the Civil Service brought down the last government and what the US right should learn from that: https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/12/did_the_administrative_state_collapse_the_british_tories_lessons_for_the_united_states_1051057.html
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295
    edited August 12
    It's not going to be Patel, she blew it with that interview, perhaps deliberately, for her own reasons. It's not going to be Tugendhat, he's too anonymous and wet and I agree his campaign has been invisible. I imagine the MPs will select Cleverly as the centrist candidate and one of Jenrick or Badenoch as the "right" candidate

    So it will be

    Cleverly versus
    Jenrick or Badenoch

    And I suspect the rightwing candidate will win with the members, but I am not sure. Cleverly might do OK
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 61,490
    eek said:

    I know we were talking about Matt Goodwin earlier. He's put a post up saying why he left the university of Kent https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1822987249899749874

    Now I may not like the guy - and he's trying to all things to all people at the moment but the idea he didn't willingly leave the University of Kent is for the birds - he knows how screwed uni finances are...

    Took the money so he can spend even more time predicting the end of western civilisation.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.

    That's made me switch to Cleverly if Tugendhat doesn't make it.
    I don't have a vote because I have never been in the party but I have to say that the choices available are not particularly inspiring. Its going to be a long and potentially hazardous haul before some new talent and new ideas break through. Where are the Camerons and Osbornes of today? Are they even in Parliament yet?
    Are you really still in the mode of thinking Cameron and Osborne were "good"????

    Cameron's career ended with the catastrophe (in his eyes) of Brexit, that is the only thing he will be remembered for; Osborne is only known for the now discredited economics of austerity
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    With the defence review underway, I thought this was going to be just another bit of service lobbying for the RAF.
    But actually, it's a pretty cogent argument on how best to leverage what limited capability we have - ie, principally, to procure a lot more missiles for existing platforms.

    Regenerating the UK’s Airpower Edge Within NATO
    https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/regenerating-uks-airpower-edge-within-nato
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 31,373
    edited August 12
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,599
    eek said:

    I know we were talking about Matt Goodwin earlier. He's put a post up saying why he left the university of Kent https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1822987249899749874

    Now I may not like the guy - and he's trying to all things to all people at the moment but the idea he didn't willingly leave the University of Kent is for the birds - he knows how screwed uni finances are...

    Seems a little odd. Why would malign Lefties falsely claim he was hounded from his job because of his political views and in doing so make him look like a conservative cancel-culture martyr? Seems a counter-productive lie for the Left to start disseminating.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,211
    Andy_JS said:

    kamski said:
    I can't see Musk being extradited from Texas over a free speech dispute.
    On the other hand anyone criticising Musk could quite easily get extradited to Texas.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,045
    Andy_JS said:

    kamski said:
    I can't see Musk being extradited from Texas over a free speech dispute.
    From article

    He adds: “Were Musk to continue stirring up unrest, an arrest warrant for him might produce fireworks from his fingertips, but as an international jet-setter it would have the effect of focusing his mind.”

    “Musk’s actions should be a wake-up call for Starmer’s government to quietly legislate to take back control of what we collectively agree is permissible on social media,” he argues.

    Daisley says: “The question we are presented with is whether we’re willing to allow a billionaire oligarch to camp off the UK coastline and take potshots at our society. The idea that a boycott – whether by high-profile users or advertisers – should be our only sanction is clearly not meaningful."

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,067
    edited August 12
    Andy_JS said:

    First. If Jenrick gets through to the final two, he will win.

    Could be close with the members if it's Jenrick v Badenoch.
    That's my thought. Badenoch has to be in with a chance: she has six MPs endorsing her, joint second with Stride (?!) on six and behind Jenrick with, um, lots. If she gets to the final two she's won.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2024_Conservative_Party_leadership_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Conservative_Party_leadership_election#Conservative_party_members
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 10,223
    DavidL said:

    Interesting article as to whether or not the Civil Service brought down the last government and what the US right should learn from that: https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/12/did_the_administrative_state_collapse_the_british_tories_lessons_for_the_united_states_1051057.html

    It mainly seems to be saying that the Tories' problems were of their own creation.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,367
    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover


  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    I'm happy to accept that next Tory leader is a market I can't predict, and don't much care what the outcome is.
    Whomever they choose, they're going to have to make some hard choices over the next few years, and any one of Badenoch, Tugendhat, Jenrick etc aren't going to change that.

    The idea that they can swing right, pick up the supporters of Reform, and pivot back to the centre to grab votes there, all within an electoral cycle, just doesn't seem a realistic one.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,617
    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,367

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    LOL

    Donny is going to lose his shit when he sees that
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    Interesting article as to whether or not the Civil Service brought down the last government and what the US right should learn from that: https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/12/did_the_administrative_state_collapse_the_british_tories_lessons_for_the_united_states_1051057.html

    It mainly seems to be saying that the Tories' problems were of their own creation.
    And who can argue with that?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,572
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.

    That's made me switch to Cleverly if Tugendhat doesn't make it.
    I don't have a vote because I have never been in the party but I have to say that the choices available are not particularly inspiring. Its going to be a long and potentially hazardous haul before some new talent and new ideas break through. Where are the Camerons and Osbornes of today? Are they even in Parliament yet?
    Are you really still in the mode of thinking Cameron and Osborne were "good"????

    Cameron's career ended with the catastrophe (in his eyes) of Brexit, that is the only thing he will be remembered for; Osborne is only known for the now discredited economics of austerity
    OK, reframe it as Gove and Johnson.

    Point is that, even by 1997, all four were hiding in plain sight as Future Top Conservatives.

    Who are their equivalents today? Are they in the batch who just made it into the Commons last month, or in the lucky unlucky ones who didn't? Or has the last five years killed them all off?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Yeah, that's over the top. This Messianic nonsense could backfire
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,231

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Fortunately for them, the number of swing voters in key states who regularly consume Time is... as close to zero as makes no difference.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    On the other hand the Republicans have gone with a mad-man with a journey of self-deity promulgation.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,045
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    LOL

    Donny is going to lose his shit when he sees that
    It's a vomit-inducing cover but americans seem to like that sort of shit.
  • eekeek Posts: 27,493

    eek said:

    I know we were talking about Matt Goodwin earlier. He's put a post up saying why he left the university of Kent https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1822987249899749874

    Now I may not like the guy - and he's trying to all things to all people at the moment but the idea he didn't willingly leave the University of Kent is for the birds - he knows how screwed uni finances are...

    Seems a little odd. Why would malign Lefties falsely claim he was hounded from his job because of his political views and in doing so make him look like a conservative cancel-culture martyr? Seems a counter-productive lie for the Left to start disseminating.
    I think it was some point scoring - whilst demonstrating a total lack of knowledge about university finances at the moment...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,617
    edited August 12
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    LOL

    Donny is going to lose his shit when he sees that
    And 2016 was "Hillary's moment". There were even articles comparing her nomination to the moon landing as a historic date:

    https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/282737-historic-hillary-victory-a-where-were-you-moment/

    47 years later, we have another day on the calendar that I have no doubt will take on similar historic significance – June 7, 2016, the date when Hillary Clinton became the first woman presumptive nominee of a major American political party.
  • RichardrRichardr Posts: 94
    viewcode said:

    Andy_JS said:

    First. If Jenrick gets through to the final two, he will win.

    Could be close with the members if it's Jenrick v Badenoch.
    That's my thought. Badenoch has to be in with a chance: she has six MPs endorsing her, joint second with Stride (?!) on six and behind Jenrick with, um, lots. If she gets to the final two she's won.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorsements_in_the_2024_Conservative_Party_leadership_election
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Conservative_Party_leadership_election#Conservative_party_members
    By definition they all had [at least] 10 MPs endorsing them - that was the minimum requirement to stand.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.

    That's made me switch to Cleverly if Tugendhat doesn't make it.
    I don't have a vote because I have never been in the party but I have to say that the choices available are not particularly inspiring. Its going to be a long and potentially hazardous haul before some new talent and new ideas break through. Where are the Camerons and Osbornes of today? Are they even in Parliament yet?
    Are you really still in the mode of thinking Cameron and Osborne were "good"????

    Cameron's career ended with the catastrophe (in his eyes) of Brexit, that is the only thing he will be remembered for; Osborne is only known for the now discredited economics of austerity
    OK, reframe it as Gove and Johnson.

    Point is that, even by 1997, all four were hiding in plain sight as Future Top Conservatives.

    Who are their equivalents today? Are they in the batch who just made it into the Commons last month, or in the lucky unlucky ones who didn't? Or has the last five years killed them all off?
    Yes, I accept all that. I just don't accept Cameron and Osborne were any good. Osborne was mediocre and Cameron was worse
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Er, that's Time magazine, not the Democrats.

    And as far as their campaign is concerned, so far, they've done brilliantly. The first task is always to introduce/define the candidate; that they have succeeded in, beyond anyone's expectations.

    They will pivot to policy quite soon, I think.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,045
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Fortunately for them, the number of swing voters in key states who regularly consume Time is... as close to zero as makes no difference.
    I never consume Time, but unfortunately somebody still got me to see that cover
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,500
    kamski said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    LOL

    Donny is going to lose his shit when he sees that
    It's a vomit-inducing cover but americans seem to like that sort of shit.
    I think its rather good. I'm not American though.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,128
    Nigelb said:

    I'm happy to accept that next Tory leader is a market I can't predict, and don't much care what the outcome is.
    Whomever they choose, they're going to have to make some hard choices over the next few years, and any one of Badenoch, Tugendhat, Jenrick etc aren't going to change that.

    The idea that they can swing right, pick up the supporters of Reform, and pivot back to the centre to grab votes there, all within an electoral cycle, just doesn't seem a realistic one.

    I think it's just possible if they pick someone really bad, and Labour overperform, we might see Lib Dems become official opposition. I would love to see it!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.

    That's made me switch to Cleverly if Tugendhat doesn't make it.
    I don't have a vote because I have never been in the party but I have to say that the choices available are not particularly inspiring. Its going to be a long and potentially hazardous haul before some new talent and new ideas break through. Where are the Camerons and Osbornes of today? Are they even in Parliament yet?
    Are you really still in the mode of thinking Cameron and Osborne were "good"????

    Cameron's career ended with the catastrophe (in his eyes) of Brexit, that is the only thing he will be remembered for; Osborne is only known for the now discredited economics of austerity
    Yes, I think they were good. The austerity of Osborne was absolutely necessary given the collapse of the income flow from financial services in 2008. We are seeing this all too clearly from the decisions and difficult choices that Reeves is currently wrestling with and we will see Osbornomics, mark 2 in October. Have no doubt about it. Those that pretend that there is some other easier solution to a £100bn+ deficit are frankly delusional.

    Cameron created a party that was fiscally sound but socially liberal, as we still see from the ethnicity of those in the current race. It's exactly where I am coming from and want the country to go. Unfortunately, I am not seeing any party which combines those ideas right now. The Lib Dems are probably the closest but they are a bit too NIMBY for my taste.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,972
    Nigelb said:

    I'm happy to accept that next Tory leader is a market I can't predict, and don't much care what the outcome is.
    Whomever they choose, they're going to have to make some hard choices over the next few years, and any one of Badenoch, Tugendhat, Jenrick etc aren't going to change that.

    The idea that they can swing right, pick up the supporters of Reform, and pivot back to the centre to grab votes there, all within an electoral cycle, just doesn't seem a realistic one.

    The Conservative strategy, such as it is, depends on Labour imploding and Reform simultaneously giving up of its own accord.

    Could happen. In the same way as a meteor might hit Planet Earth and destroy all civilization.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Thank goodness the Republicans have not fallen into that trap, eh?
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,594
    edited August 12
    Nigelb said:

    With the defence review underway, I thought this was going to be just another bit of service lobbying for the RAF.
    But actually, it's a pretty cogent argument on how best to leverage what limited capability we have - ie, principally, to procure a lot more missiles for existing platforms.

    Regenerating the UK’s Airpower Edge Within NATO
    https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/regenerating-uks-airpower-edge-within-nato

    Why bother? The article prioritises rearming for a war with Russia. Russia? A broken country fighting within its own borders and losing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 50,617
    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Thank goodness the Republicans have not fallen into that trap, eh?
    Even if you think there's a Trump personality cult, that's not the same thing.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.

    That's made me switch to Cleverly if Tugendhat doesn't make it.
    I don't have a vote because I have never been in the party but I have to say that the choices available are not particularly inspiring. Its going to be a long and potentially hazardous haul before some new talent and new ideas break through. Where are the Camerons and Osbornes of today? Are they even in Parliament yet?
    Are you really still in the mode of thinking Cameron and Osborne were "good"????

    Cameron's career ended with the catastrophe (in his eyes) of Brexit, that is the only thing he will be remembered for; Osborne is only known for the now discredited economics of austerity
    Yes, I think they were good. The austerity of Osborne was absolutely necessary given the collapse of the income flow from financial services in 2008. We are seeing this all too clearly from the decisions and difficult choices that Reeves is currently wrestling with and we will see Osbornomics, mark 2 in October. Have no doubt about it. Those that pretend that there is some other easier solution to a £100bn+ deficit are frankly delusional.

    Cameron created a party that was fiscally sound but socially liberal, as we still see from the ethnicity of those in the current race. It's exactly where I am coming from and want the country to go. Unfortunately, I am not seeing any party which combines those ideas right now. The Lib Dems are probably the closest but they are a bit too NIMBY for my taste.
    We will have to disagree on Austerity; I believe it was self defeating

    As for all the other stuff, that was maybe true in 2010 but 2024 is vastly different
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487
    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    DavidL said:

    Interesting article as to whether or not the Civil Service brought down the last government and what the US right should learn from that: https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/12/did_the_administrative_state_collapse_the_british_tories_lessons_for_the_united_states_1051057.html

    No, it didn't.
    What they ought to learn is, don't be incompetent.

    I note the authors are "Project 2025" fans. And rather glide over the role of the current Supreme Court in having already started an attempt to dismantle the administrative state.

    All in all, a fairly uninformative bit of propaganda.
  • numbertwelvenumbertwelve Posts: 6,522
    I remember the HOPE stuff from the Obama run. I thought that was nauseatingly OTT at the time (still do), but it didn’t do him any harm.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm happy to accept that next Tory leader is a market I can't predict, and don't much care what the outcome is.
    Whomever they choose, they're going to have to make some hard choices over the next few years, and any one of Badenoch, Tugendhat, Jenrick etc aren't going to change that.

    The idea that they can swing right, pick up the supporters of Reform, and pivot back to the centre to grab votes there, all within an electoral cycle, just doesn't seem a realistic one.

    I think it's just possible if they pick someone really bad, and Labour overperform, we might see Lib Dems become official opposition. I would love to see it!
    That would be interesting indeed, but it seems a little unlikely.
    If they pivot to the right, they do risk losing some support to the LibDems.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487
    I predict this will rapidly become a sh*tshow:

    "Elon Musk to interview Trump on X social media network"

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/elon-musk-interview-trump-x-social-media-network-2024-08-12/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295
    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm happy to accept that next Tory leader is a market I can't predict, and don't much care what the outcome is.
    Whomever they choose, they're going to have to make some hard choices over the next few years, and any one of Badenoch, Tugendhat, Jenrick etc aren't going to change that.

    The idea that they can swing right, pick up the supporters of Reform, and pivot back to the centre to grab votes there, all within an electoral cycle, just doesn't seem a realistic one.

    I think it's just possible if they pick someone really bad, and Labour overperform, we might see Lib Dems become official opposition. I would love to see it!
    It's also possible that Labour are completely inept and clueless, fall apart over migration/boats, and all the Tories have to do is pick someone vaguely coherent and rightwing and they sweep back in 2028

    I'm not saying the Tories should complacemently rely on this, quite the opposite, nonetheless it is plausible
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 56,231

    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    LOL

    Donny is going to lose his shit when he sees that
    And 2016 was "Hillary's moment". There were even articles comparing her nomination to the moon landing as a historic date:

    https://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/presidential-campaign/282737-historic-hillary-victory-a-where-were-you-moment/

    47 years later, we have another day on the calendar that I have no doubt will take on similar historic significance – June 7, 2016, the date when Hillary Clinton became the first woman presumptive nominee of a major American political party.
    Sounds reasonable: it was a moment of historic importance, without which we wouldn't have had a President like Donald Trump.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Thank goodness the Republicans have not fallen into that trap, eh?
    Even if you think there's a Trump personality cult, that's not the same thing.
    No, its much worse. No relative of Harris is chair of the party redirecting available funds to pay her legal bills.

    But the reality is that, like most VPs, Harris has not made a huge impression on the US public over the last 3 years and she wasn't really known outside California before that. She took over from the sitting President in highly problematic circumstances and urgently needed to introduce herself to the public before a fairly imminent election. It is hardly surprising that the Democrats have focused on achieving that in the relatively few weeks since she was selected. They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams but she also needs some policy substance to seal the deal.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    You think compulsory purchase is theft ?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798

    I predict this will rapidly become a sh*tshow:

    "Elon Musk to interview Trump on X social media network"

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/elon-musk-interview-trump-x-social-media-network-2024-08-12/

    "Interview with a Fanboi".
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Interesting article as to whether or not the Civil Service brought down the last government and what the US right should learn from that: https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/12/did_the_administrative_state_collapse_the_british_tories_lessons_for_the_united_states_1051057.html

    No, it didn't.
    What they ought to learn is, don't be incompetent.

    I note the authors are "Project 2025" fans. And rather glide over the role of the current Supreme Court in having already started an attempt to dismantle the administrative state.

    All in all, a fairly uninformative bit of propaganda.
    I am not saying I agreed with it. I am saying that it is an interesting insight into how that clique think on both sides of the Atlantic. These are the waters in which the current Tory leadership candidates are swimming for good or ill (very probably the latter).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649
    Scott_xP said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    LOL

    Donny is going to lose his shit when he sees that
    He's had a problem in that area for a while, actually.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Thank goodness the Republicans have not fallen into that trap, eh?
    Even if you think there's a Trump personality cult, that's not the same thing.
    No, it's not.
    That's a genuine cult; this is a magazine cover.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487
    edited August 12
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    They will be paying well over the current market rate.
    Just not 20 - 100 times the current value.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    edited August 12

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    That's absolutely how it works for green belt land. Which is what we're talking about.

    Read the article.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/12/english-councils-buy-green-belt-land
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Clearly you haven't taken the trouble to look at what they've actually been saying.

    All of Harris and Walz's speeches (and they tend to give the same speech over and over, which I'm not sure is a great idea in the SM age but it's going over well at the moment) are about both their journey of self-actualisation (as you call it) and their policies for the country.

    In particular, they have been going big on supporting ordinary people against big corporations. Which is clever positioning given one of the largest, greediest and most avowedly criminal big corp is owned by the Republican candidate.

    Whether it will wash is another question given the Dems have their own questions to answer on links to big business. But so far it's playing well
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    You think compulsory purchase is theft ?
    It is if fair compensation is not paid. And that is what seems to be proposed.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,972
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    Land without planning permission (current state) is worth X; with permission is worth multiples of X. Market value is actually X plus a bit - with the premium representing a possibility it will get permission later. I think it's that price they are going for.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    You think compulsory purchase is theft ?
    It is if fair compensation is not paid. And that is what seems to be proposed.
    That would depend on what you mean by 'fair'.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295
    edited August 12

    I predict this will rapidly become a sh*tshow:

    "Elon Musk to interview Trump on X social media network"

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/elon-musk-interview-trump-x-social-media-network-2024-08-12/

    100% agree

    Musk is awkward, he admits he's on the spectrum, he's socially unskilled, he's hesitant and a bit weird (personally, I also think he's a genius, but let's set that aside for now)

    He'll be interviewing a raging narcissist with significant cognitive decline and a tendency to lose the plot, or lie absurdly

    It might be compelling viewing, but not in the way they hope

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    That's absolutely how it works for green belt land. Which is what we're talking about.
    I believe you're wrong: one of the great misconceptions is that green belt land cannot be built on, that it has to be set in aspic forever. That's wrong: you *can* build on green belt land; there's just a lot more hoops to jump through.

    What the government is essentially saying is that the green belt no longer exists - but only for them.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 16,572
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    That's absolutely how it works for green belt land. Which is what we're talking about.

    Read the article.
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/aug/12/english-councils-buy-green-belt-land
    And a bit more generous than the business model for post war New Towns;

    The financial model was for many years as follows: an area of countryside was designated as a new town under the act; land was bought from the owners at agricultural prices; the government borrowed to invest in housing, commercial premises, and supporting infrastructure such as sewers, schools, churches or open spaces; and in due course it sold off the commercial premises and part of the housing at developed prices, thus paying off the debt.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    So if I had bought Amazon shares at $1 because I saw future potential in them the State is entitled to say, well I'll have those thanks very much and here's your dollar? Most assets are bought for their future potential. How credible that future potential is should fix the price. Ignoring it is theft. It's something for nothing.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,972
    edited August 12
    Leon said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nigelb said:

    I'm happy to accept that next Tory leader is a market I can't predict, and don't much care what the outcome is.
    Whomever they choose, they're going to have to make some hard choices over the next few years, and any one of Badenoch, Tugendhat, Jenrick etc aren't going to change that.

    The idea that they can swing right, pick up the supporters of Reform, and pivot back to the centre to grab votes there, all within an electoral cycle, just doesn't seem a realistic one.

    I think it's just possible if they pick someone really bad, and Labour overperform, we might see Lib Dems become official opposition. I would love to see it!
    It's also possible that Labour are completely inept and clueless, fall apart over migration/boats, and all the Tories have to do is pick someone vaguely coherent and rightwing and they sweep back in 2028

    I'm not saying the Tories should complacemently rely on this, quite the opposite, nonetheless it is plausible
    It is plausible and the Conservatives are complacently relying on it.

    I should add it may not be the worst strategy for them. But that's only because all their potential strategies are dire.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    That's absolutely how it works for green belt land. Which is what we're talking about.
    I believe you're wrong: one of the great misconceptions is that green belt land cannot be built on, that it has to be set in aspic forever. That's wrong: you *can* build on green belt land; there's just a lot more hoops to jump through.

    What the government is essentially saying is that the green belt no longer exists - but only for them.
    What the government is saying is that it will limit the speculative profits of the who've bought green belt land in the hope to will be CPO'd.

    ..The government said it wanted to take a “more strategic approach to [greenbelt] land designation”.

    The green belt was introduced nationwide in 1947 under the Town and Country Planning Act to prevent urban sprawl and protect areas on the edge of towns and cities from development. It covers 6,300 sq miles, about 13% of England’s area.

    Much of the green belt is owned by farmers, with about 65% of all the country’s greenbelt used for agriculture. However, there are some investors who have been prospectively buying up greenbelt land in recent years in the hope that planning rules are loosened.

    There are fears that landowners who were holding greenbelt land that had no development value before the changes could now attempt to cash in...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379

    DavidL said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    Thank goodness the Republicans have not fallen into that trap, eh?
    Even if you think there's a Trump personality cult, that's not the same thing.
    No indeed, they are vastly different. Trump's self-obsession is on a completely different scale.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487
    Leon said:

    I predict this will rapidly become a sh*tshow:

    "Elon Musk to interview Trump on X social media network"

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/elon-musk-interview-trump-x-social-media-network-2024-08-12/

    100% agree

    Musk is awkward, he admits he's on the spectrum, he's socially unskilled, he's hesitant and a bit weird (personally, I also think he's a genius, but let's set that aside for now)

    He'll be interviewing a raging narcissist with significant cognitive decline and a tendency to lose the plot, or lie absurdly

    It might be compelling viewing, but not in the way they hope

    Musk *claims* to be on the spectrum. He also frequently lies.

    I dislike people saying "I'm on the spectrum!" as a way of self-excusing shitty behaviour. Plenty of people 'on the spectrum' manage to live normal, ordinary lives without being shitty. The chances are many such people would be shitty anyway.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,852
    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So effectively the council gets to expropriate the planning gain for itself?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    So if I had bought Amazon shares at $1 because I saw future potential in them the State is entitled to say, well I'll have those thanks very much and here's your dollar? Most assets are bought for their future potential. How credible that future potential is should fix the price. Ignoring it is theft. It's something for nothing.
    Your buying cheap Amazon stock, and then refusing to sell it below a certain price, doesn't do anything to frustrate development.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    edited August 12
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    So if I had bought Amazon shares at $1 because I saw future potential in them the State is entitled to say, well I'll have those thanks very much and here's your dollar? Most assets are bought for their future potential. How credible that future potential is should fix the price. Ignoring it is theft. It's something for nothing.
    You disagree with compulsory purchase per se?

    Assuming not, why would the state ever pay other than a very small premium over the market rate?

    You bought your Amazon shares at $1 because you thought they'd rise. If everyone else agrees they'll be $2 or more now but if the market price is still $1 that's what the a compulsory purchase price should be. Take your dollar and go and speculate on something else.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,067

    Scott_xP said:

    @NickBryantNY

    “Her moment” @TIME new cover

    The Democrats keep making the mistake of making it all about the leader's journey of self-actualisation rather than about the country.
    These days, I'm not sure it's a *mistake*, since society seems to have restructured itself around such bollocks. However it was in 2016 as HRC can attest.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    That's absolutely how it works for green belt land. Which is what we're talking about.
    I believe you're wrong: one of the great misconceptions is that green belt land cannot be built on, that it has to be set in aspic forever. That's wrong: you *can* build on green belt land; there's just a lot more hoops to jump through.

    What the government is essentially saying is that the green belt no longer exists - but only for them.
    What the government is saying is that it will limit the speculative profits of the who've bought green belt land in the hope to will be CPO'd.

    ..The government said it wanted to take a “more strategic approach to [greenbelt] land designation”.

    The green belt was introduced nationwide in 1947 under the Town and Country Planning Act to prevent urban sprawl and protect areas on the edge of towns and cities from development. It covers 6,300 sq miles, about 13% of England’s area.

    Much of the green belt is owned by farmers, with about 65% of all the country’s greenbelt used for agriculture. However, there are some investors who have been prospectively buying up greenbelt land in recent years in the hope that planning rules are loosened.

    There are fears that landowners who were holding greenbelt land that had no development value before the changes could now attempt to cash in...
    If they're not going to limit these changes to recent purchases of the land, then the 'some investors' is just a red herring.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 68,798

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So effectively the council gets to expropriate the planning gain for itself?
    Some of it, yes.
    Which is the only way our semi-bankrupt local authorities will be able to afford development.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,019

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    That's absolutely how it works for green belt land. Which is what we're talking about.
    I believe you're wrong: one of the great misconceptions is that green belt land cannot be built on, that it has to be set in aspic forever. That's wrong: you *can* build on green belt land; there's just a lot more hoops to jump through.

    What the government is essentially saying is that the green belt no longer exists - but only for them.
    Also, lots of golf courses are green belt. What's the market rate for one of those?
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,045
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So effectively the council gets to expropriate the planning gain for itself?
    Some of it, yes.
    Which is the only way our semi-bankrupt local authorities will be able to afford development.
    Sounds like a good idea to me, unless you are a landowner hoping to get an unearned windfall. Don't think most landowners would be so entitled though
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,972
    edited August 12

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    It is if the same councils decide that land will get planning permission when it currently doesn't have it.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,893
    Has it been noted that "I went into a riot situation with a knuckleduster because it was stuck on my fingers and I couldn't get it off" man has received 12 months, which was double the sentence for the possession example I posted this morning.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/08/12/uk-riots-starmer-court-sentencing-southport/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    They will be paying well over the current market rate.
    Just not 20 - 100 times the current value.
    Fair point. How much over will they be paying? I can't see it from a quick skim of the article.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    So if I had bought Amazon shares at $1 because I saw future potential in them the State is entitled to say, well I'll have those thanks very much and here's your dollar? Most assets are bought for their future potential. How credible that future potential is should fix the price. Ignoring it is theft. It's something for nothing.
    You disagree with compulsory purchase per se?

    Assuming not, why would the state ever pay other than a very small premium over the market rate?
    No I don't disagree with CP. But if I happened to own farm land on the outskirts of a city (I don't) and if I could see a clear pattern of such land being given permission for development over time (which there is) then I think that the State, who are proposing such development, should pay some compensation for the loss of that potential. How much is currently determined by quite sophisticated rules that have been developed over decades. Basically, there has to be a realistic prospect for a development other than the development the State is proposing within a foreseeable period. This seems to me to be fair. Putting the weight of the sword on the scales vae victus on the side of the state is not.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,893

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    I don't think that a private agreement between two parties would be a relevant matter.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,102

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    As I mentioned a couple of weeks ago, the current system is pretty much that anyway. Current compulsory purchase rules say the Government have to give you up to 10% over the current market value for your home but with a cap at £15K for a property. Which to be honest is nothing. So the only way you can get the full 10% is if your home is worth less than £150K

    For land it is just the current market value.

    In France the standard amount is 1.5x the market value with no cap.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,332
    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    Land without planning permission (current state) is worth X; with permission is worth multiples of X. Market value is actually X plus a bit - with the premium representing a possibility it will get permission later. I think it's that price they are going for.
    That's what the current rules say. They are wanting to change them.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 16,972

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    They will be paying well over the current market rate.
    Just not 20 - 100 times the current value.
    Fair point. How much over will they be paying? I can't see it from a quick skim of the article.
    The fair value would I think be based on the price the speculator paid the original owner, ie the farmer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 70,649
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So effectively the council gets to expropriate the planning gain for itself?
    Some of it, yes.
    Which is the only way our semi-bankrupt local authorities will be able to afford development.
    It might even be seen as a cheap and less controversial way of trying to rescue them from the financial black hole they've been sucked into in the last 15-20 years.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487
    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    I don't think that a private agreement between two parties would be a relevant matter.
    It must be a situation that already exists: if there is an option, and the land gets CPO'd, what happens to that agreement? And more particularly, the money that has already been exchanged?

    (I'm cautious about optioned land; it can be a barrier to development by small players. At the very least, it needs to be more open, with the deals registered.)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 7,852
    DavidL said:

    Leon said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    I saw Ruth Davidson had come out for Cleverly at the weekend.

    That's made me switch to Cleverly if Tugendhat doesn't make it.
    I don't have a vote because I have never been in the party but I have to say that the choices available are not particularly inspiring. Its going to be a long and potentially hazardous haul before some new talent and new ideas break through. Where are the Camerons and Osbornes of today? Are they even in Parliament yet?
    Are you really still in the mode of thinking Cameron and Osborne were "good"????

    Cameron's career ended with the catastrophe (in his eyes) of Brexit, that is the only thing he will be remembered for; Osborne is only known for the now discredited economics of austerity
    Yes, I think they were good. The austerity of Osborne was absolutely necessary given the collapse of the income flow from financial services in 2008. We are seeing this all too clearly from the decisions and difficult choices that Reeves is currently wrestling with and we will see Osbornomics, mark 2 in October. Have no doubt about it. Those that pretend that there is some other easier solution to a £100bn+ deficit are frankly delusional.

    Cameron created a party that was fiscally sound but socially liberal, as we still see from the ethnicity of those in the current race. It's exactly where I am coming from and want the country to go. Unfortunately, I am not seeing any party which combines
    those ideas right now. The Lib Dems are
    probably the closest but they are a bit too
    NIMBY for my taste.
    Unfortunately @DavidL you’ve fallen for Osborne’s propaganda.

    The basic concept - the government is spending too much and taxing too little 1 was right but the execution was disastrous. At best it was a missed opportunity,

    He bribed the pensioners, wasted money on pet projects and slashed everything that wasn’t politically protected. The outcome is what we have today.

    He should have taken a much more systemic approach to figuring out what the government *should* do and the. *how* to do it. Money should be an output not an input.

    I hope beyond all hope that Reeves isn’t a second Osborne

  • LeonLeon Posts: 53,295

    Leon said:

    I predict this will rapidly become a sh*tshow:

    "Elon Musk to interview Trump on X social media network"

    https://www.reuters.com/world/us/elon-musk-interview-trump-x-social-media-network-2024-08-12/

    100% agree

    Musk is awkward, he admits he's on the spectrum, he's socially unskilled, he's hesitant and a bit weird (personally, I also think he's a genius, but let's set that aside for now)

    He'll be interviewing a raging narcissist with significant cognitive decline and a tendency to lose the plot, or lie absurdly

    It might be compelling viewing, but not in the way they hope

    Musk *claims* to be on the spectrum. He also frequently lies.

    I dislike people saying "I'm on the spectrum!" as a way of self-excusing shitty behaviour. Plenty of people 'on the spectrum' manage to live normal, ordinary lives without being shitty. The chances are many such people would be shitty anyway.
    He certainly evinces plenty of spectrummy behaviourisms, his oddly meek voice, his inability to look eye to eye, the stiff body language, the halting sentences and quite odd sense of humour, and the fact he offends people quite easily, often without meaning to

    It doesn't matter anyway. I agree with your thesis. This interview has all the ingredients for a trainwreck
  • MattWMattW Posts: 21,893
    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Someone's been reading comments I made back in March-April on PB.

    Maybe. Very, very maybe.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,102
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So effectively the council gets to expropriate the planning gain for itself?
    Some of it, yes.
    Which is the only way our semi-bankrupt local authorities will be able to afford development.
    Sounds like a good idea to me, unless you are a landowner hoping to get an unearned windfall. Don't think most landowners would be so entitled though
    But for a lot of landowners the land is a source of income through usage. So compulsory purchase of the land is removing the livelihood of the owner above the value of the land itself. There should certainly be compensation for that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,487

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    They will be paying well over the current market rate.
    Just not 20 - 100 times the current value.
    Fair point. How much over will they be paying? I can't see it from a quick skim of the article.
    If it's anything like current CPO's, a miserly amount. Often not enough to compensate an owner for buying a new place and moving (in the case of homeowners).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,457

    MattW said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    Theft, in other words. ;)
    Not exactly. They'll be buying land at prices well above its current market value - but well below market value with planning permission for building.
    But without the compulsory purchase there won't be the planning permission, and vice versa. The value created is not something they will be depriving current owners of, as without the compulsory purchase, that value will not exist.

    You might think that somewhat casuistical, but if it significantly helps the economy, and ameliorates the housing crisis, then I think it a price worth paying.
    Are you saying the only way that landowners can get planning permission is if they sell it to councils/government via CPO? Because that isn't the way it works.

    Edit: I wonder what would happen with optioned land?
    I don't think that a private agreement between two parties would be a relevant matter.
    It must be a situation that already exists: if there is an option, and the land gets CPO'd, what happens to that agreement? And more particularly, the money that has already been exchanged?

    (I'm cautious about optioned land; it can be a barrier to development by small players. At the very least, it needs to be more open, with the deals registered.)
    Wouldn't it be on the publicx register of sasines in Scotland at least? Mortgages in general are, IIRC.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,379
    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    The most significant domestic news for today - which I think I'm the only one to mention so far - is Labour publishing plans to grant councils compulsory purchase powers for green belt land, without their being required to pay for excessive planning gain.

    That has the potential to shift the dial.

    So, legalised theft then? That is shifting the dial somewhat.
    No, they'll be paying the current market rate. If the council doesn't buy it, it will never get PP so the landowner is not disadvantaged.
    They will be paying well over the current market rate.
    Just not 20 - 100 times the current value.
    Fair point. How much over will they be paying? I can't see it from a quick skim of the article.
    The fair value would I think be based on the price the speculator paid the original owner, ie the farmer.
    So if there is no speculator, just a farmer going about his or her business, the fair value would be the local agricultural land price, plus a bit for the disruption?
This discussion has been closed.