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Austerity is popular – politicalbetting.com

SystemSystem Posts: 12,164
edited August 26 in General
Austerity is popular – politicalbetting.com

What do Britons think of Labour's proposed changes to public spending?% saying right thing to do:Public sector pay rise: 65%Junior doctor pay rise: 58%Cancelling Stonehenge road tunnel: 53%Means-testing winter fuel allowance: 43%Cancelling long-term care cap: 18%… pic.twitter.com/cSSAqSYnXZ

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Comments

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,840
    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,840
    Foxy said:

    First? Doh! Second...

    People favour cuts for other people shock.

    Close but no cigar.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,079
    DavidL said:

    "Fair", being a word for the bit of public spending spent on me, presumably.

    Looking at the responses, it seems more complicated than that.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited August 6
    In the first question the public say cut spending. In the second question on specific measures the public say increase pay and don't cancel welfare.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,440
    ...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,604
    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,670
    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
  • FishingFishing Posts: 5,042
    edited August 6
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Starmer has never shown the slightest scruple about lying then breaking his promises when it suits him. Even for a lawyer politician he is staggeringly dishonest. What makes you think he'll keep these pledges as opposed to all the others he's broken?
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,674
    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    I don't disagree with the need for more cash for investment and capital expenditure to drive growth - but why does it have to be funded from cuts to current spending?

    If we increased taxation to French levels we could spend 11% of GDP on that kind of investment without touching current spending.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652

    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.

    Totally agree. To solve long-term problems you need long-term approaches. You don't get those by changing key ministers every few months.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    FF43 said:

    In the first question the public say cut spending. In the second question on specific measures the public say increase pay and don't cancel welfare.

    It's very like the demands to drastically reduce immigration. A majority want that but not in a way that would harm public services, raise the pension age or increase the cost of living.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    A fickle bunch of people, the Great British Public.

    They want more less spending but a whole load of programmes funded, and they want more taxes in general but fewer falling on themselves.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    Sandpit said:

    A fickle bunch of people, the Great British Public.

    They want more less spending but a whole load of programmes funded, and they want more taxes in general but fewer falling on themselves.

    You dont get called perfidious Albion without reason
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,670
    edited August 6

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,339
    I initially misread the headline as “Anxiety is Popular” - which seems apposite and possibly more accurate
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,415

    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.

    They've only been in office a month. She needs time to deliver her vision including her budget in October.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371
    Taz said:

    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.

    They've only been in office a month. She needs time to deliver her vision including her budget in October.
    You know that we are going to have almost 3 months of fear mongering before the budget on October 30th...
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,015
    Sandpit said:

    A fickle bunch of people, the Great British Public.

    They want more less spending but a whole load of programmes funded, and they want more taxes in general but fewer falling on themselves.

    Cake and eat it.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,370

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I have been critical of your recent posts. This by contrast is a measured, insightful and worthy contribution.

    Are you past the grieving stage now?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,370

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    A cottage hospital in every small town?
  • SteveSSteveS Posts: 182
    Foxy said:



    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.
    .

    Aren’t EDs funded through a block contract? So they won’t get any additional funding either for the additional attendance. I think you need to compare the marginal cost of a low acuity ED visit vs the cost of a GP attendance. (I still think the ED will be more expensive)

    Steve
  • FossFoss Posts: 1,019
    edited August 6

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    A cottage hospital in every small town?
    There’s money going into research for cheaper MRI machines and money going into machine diagnostic of scans. Above a certain quality threshold - and below a certain price - it makes sense to start pushing that stuff down and out.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262
    FF43 said:

    In the first question the public say cut spending. In the second question on specific measures the public say increase pay and don't cancel welfare.

    That’s what went wrong with Osborne.

    He looked at those results and slashed everything to increase minimum wage and welfare.

    Politicians need to leave, not follow
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.


    Why reward failure ?
    They are not.

    The BMA is a very successful union
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,674

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.


    Why reward failure ?
    They are not.

    The BMA is a very successful union
    Is it? Junior doctors experienced a real terms pay cut from 2008 to 2021 of 26%.

    That's a miserable record for any union.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262
    eek said:

    Taz said:

    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.

    They've only been in office a month. She needs time to deliver her vision including her budget in October.
    You know that we are going to have almost 3 months of fear mongering before the budget on October 30th...
    I’m hope she lives up to the Mail’s worst fears. She’s only got one chance to press the reset button (although that didn’t work with Putin)
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the
    moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,728
    Scrapping Dilnot social care plan is very unpopular I see.

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited August 6

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    But you still need the GP to decide your wife needs an x-ray, to arrange the follow-up and review the results. You are talking about how those GPs are organised.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    They’ve tried them and not as much cross utilisation as you expect. Also difficult to do “one time” without running spare capacity in radiology for example
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.

    They've only been in office a month. She needs time to deliver her vision including her budget in October.
    You know that we are going to have almost 3 months of fear mongering before the budget on October 30th...
    I’m hope she lives up to the Mail’s worst fears. She’s only got one chance to press the reset button (although that didn’t work with Putin)
    I have to admit I want Council tax reformed because it's completely insane (it's not 1990, we now have 30 years of house price data to use).

    But Rachel will be in an impossible situation, she will reform too much for many people yet for the people who understand the scale of the mess nowhere near enough...
  • PhilPhil Posts: 2,316

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the
    moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
    Trouble is you then get the various verticals trying to cost shift to the other ones. Which is what’s happening now with social care & clinical care of course: Local councils have to pay for social care & are unable / unwilling to provide enough resulting in a cost shift to the NHS which is unable to shift people out of clinical care into social care, tying up resources that could be used for other patients.

    It seems to me that introducing even more vertically integrated splits in care provision is not going to improve this situation.

    Possibly taking social care away from councils, where it has to fight with everything else for funding, and setting up a dedicated agency might help, if it was funded adequately. But there lies the rub - you can solve most problems with enough money, but is the money going to be there?
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,092
    The overall fair/unfair result doesn’t seem to match the popularity of most of the individual measures. Perhaps it’s always that way with polling.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371

    Scrapping Dilnot social care plan is very unpopular I see.

    Scrapping a plan that has existed for 12 years and never been implemented?

    All the Social Care and Hospital questions actually reveal is that people want things changed there (a Social care system that works and hospitals that aren't falling down from old age)..
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371

    The overall fair/unfair result doesn’t seem to match the popularity of most of the individual measures. Perhaps it’s always that way with polling.

    Look at the question with the filter of "will I be the person paying more" and the answer is obvious.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,092

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the
    moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
    The NHS is largely run separately. GPS are independent businesses. Trusts are all in competition. Social care is entirely separate.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    edited August 6
    Thank goodness we have a Labour government. Having watched Newsnight last night it's crystal clear that the last government have been fanning the flames of the idea and undesirability of 'others'.

    It has encouraged an ugly group of moronic racists who though in a tiny minority with the wrong government could have flourished. I'm confident this government will not give an inch to these vile people and neither should they.

    Had we not had an election when we did I have serious doubts that the last government would have have done this. They would at best have eqivocated as was seen by Andrea Jenkins last night.

    Though the numbers are tiny make no mistake we have seen blackshirts on our streets. I've never seen cars stopped and people being asked if they're 'White British' or hotels with immigrants being invaded and set alight with immigrants inside and politicians like Andrea Jenkins finding equivalence.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262
    Eabhal said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.


    Why reward failure ?
    They are not.

    The BMA is a very successful union
    Is it? Junior doctors experienced a real terms pay cut from 2008 to 2021 of 26%.


    That's a miserable record for any union.
    Former management
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.

    They've only been in office a month. She needs time to deliver her vision including her budget in October.
    You know that we are going to have almost 3 months of fear mongering before the budget on October 30th...
    I’m hope she lives up to the Mail’s worst fears. She’s only got one chance to press the reset button (although that didn’t work with Putin)
    I have to admit I want Council tax reformed because it's completely insane (it's not 1990, we now have 30 years of house price data to use).

    But Rachel will be in an impossible situation, she will reform too much for many people yet for the people who understand
    the scale of the mess nowhere near enough...
    The 1990 thing is meaningless in my view

    It’s about who pays the tax (the relative weighting between different houses).

    What we need is a material increase in taxes - and council tax is the wrong vehicle because of the disconnect between those who raise it (councils) and the fact that the bulk of spending is mandated by central government

    Blurred lines of accountability are never good
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    edited August 6
    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262
    Phil said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the
    moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
    Trouble is you then get the various verticals trying to cost shift to the other ones. Which is what’s happening now with social care & clinical care of course: Local councils have to pay for social care & are unable / unwilling to provide enough resulting in a cost shift to the NHS which is unable to shift people out of clinical care into social care, tying up resources that could be used for other patients.

    It seems to me that introducing even more vertically integrated splits in care provision
    is not going to improve this situation.

    Possibly taking social care away from councils, where it has to fight with everything else for funding, and setting up a dedicated agency might help, if it was funded adequately. But there lies the rub - you can solve most problems with enough money, but is the money going to be there?
    The issue with social care and NHS is that they are funded by different budgets

    Bringing all of the verticals into one organisation (I wasn’t clear but was thinking a divisional structure rather than completely separate) would help with that - you can agree policies.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,079
    Foss said:

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    A cottage hospital in every small town?
    There’s money going into research for cheaper MRI machines and money going into machine diagnostic of scans. Above a certain quality threshold - and below a certain price - it makes sense to start pushing that stuff down and out.
    Isn't it at the development rather than research stage ?
    There's already a working prototype:
    https://physicsworld.com/a/researchers-build-0-05-t-mri-scanner-that-produces-diagnostic-quality-images/

    There are analogous improvements underway in ultrasound scanning.

    But not much of that is something that can be rolled out on a large scale immediately.

    Regarding the issue of GPs, it's unclear that they are necessary - certainly other health systems operate quite successfully without them.
    But such a radical restructuring of the NHS would come with risks matching the potential benefits. Clearly we need to do something, but this government will get only one chance, and they need to get it right; better to muddle on than to get it wrong.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,262

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the
    moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (
    GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
    The NHS is largely run separately. GPS are independent businesses. Trusts are all in competition. Social care is entirely separate.
    Lots of individual BUs is a recipe for chaos.

    And GPs should be employees
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
    I really like Mark Kelly but I think the issue is he’s not a great speaker and the Dems might be worried about the senate seat coming up for election in 2026 .
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,186
    edited August 6

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    That's a debate about fact and degree and different services, as we do it already. Blair & Co were experimenting with multifunctional GP clinics back in the 2004-2005 period, under a name I cannot remember.

    I don't know about X-Rays and what the constraints are on instant review; I do think the Medical Records can be reviewed including X-Rays at both places.

    It's a decade since I had a minor op to remove both my big toenails and kill the root (using an acid that I recognised from I think Sherlock Holmes - phenolic acid or prussic acid or something. That was done at my local GP surgery by a variety of nurse.

    At present we have 15-20k nurses based in GP surgeries.

    Politcially at present I think that much of it is still about recovering from the depredations of Slasher Cameron and Sir Guy of Gosborne. (Sorry, @TSE ) It's only over time that I have realised the damage they and their successors did.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    "There are no exit markets for Rachel Reeves but I don’t think Sir Keir Starmer will do a Liz Truss and ditch the Chancellor at the first sign of problems/unpopularity."

    It's still early days; let Reeves and Labour's policies have time to settle in.

    Incidentally, I think SKS would be very wise to follow Cameron's policy of laving ministers in post for long periods, rather than constantly reshuffling them.

    They've only been in office a month. She needs time to deliver her vision including her budget in October.
    You know that we are going to have almost 3 months of fear mongering before the budget on October 30th...
    I’m hope she lives up to the Mail’s worst fears. She’s only got one chance to press the reset button (although that didn’t work with Putin)
    I have to admit I want Council tax reformed because it's completely insane (it's not 1990, we now have 30 years of house price data to use).

    But Rachel will be in an impossible situation, she will reform too much for many people yet for the people who understand
    the scale of the mess nowhere near enough...
    The 1990 thing is meaningless in my view

    It’s about who pays the tax (the relative weighting between different houses).

    What we need is a material increase in taxes - and council tax is the wrong vehicle because of the disconnect between those who raise it (councils) and the fact that the bulk of spending is mandated by central government

    Blurred lines of accountability are never good
    My 1990 point was actual to show that we have datasets (house price sale price data) available now that means we can do things in a different way to the mad panic method used back in 1990.

    But councils are no different from anywhere else they simply don't have the money to do things and the things they are being asked to do (Social care, emergency housing) is getting stupidly expensive due to demand



  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,988
    Not all the government's spending cuts are popular, on the Yougov chart ending the social care costs cap and scrapping spending on new hospitals are massively unpopular. Opinion equally divided on means testing winter fuel allowance.

    Ironically the biggest spending PM since Brown was Johnson. It looks like Boris will still have increased spending more than Sir Keir will too given the cuts Reeves announced
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Nigelb said:

    Foss said:

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    A cottage hospital in every small town?
    There’s money going into research for cheaper MRI machines and money going into machine diagnostic of scans. Above a certain quality threshold - and below a certain price - it makes sense to start pushing that stuff down and out.
    Isn't it at the development rather than research stage ?
    There's already a working prototype:
    https://physicsworld.com/a/researchers-build-0-05-t-mri-scanner-that-produces-diagnostic-quality-images/

    There are analogous improvements underway in ultrasound scanning.

    But not much of that is something that can be rolled out on a large scale immediately.

    Regarding the issue of GPs, it's unclear that they are necessary - certainly other health systems operate quite successfully without them.
    But such a radical restructuring of the NHS would come with risks matching the potential benefits. Clearly we need to do something, but this government will get only one chance, and they need to get it right; better to muddle on than to get it wrong.
    Which health systems operate without GPs?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,988
    HYUFD said:

    Not all the government's spending cuts are popular, on the Yougov chart ending the social care costs cap and scrapping spending on new hospitals are massively unpopular. Opinion equally divided on means testing winter fuel allowance.

    Ironically the biggest spending PM since Brown was Johnson. It looks like Boris will still have increased spending more than Sir Keir will too given the cuts Reeves announced

    Though public sector workers and junior doctors rewarded with pay rises for their Labour votes
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497

    FF43 said:

    In the first question the public say cut spending. In the second question on specific measures the public say increase pay and don't cancel welfare.

    That’s what went wrong with Osborne.

    He looked at those results and slashed everything to increase minimum wage and welfare.

    Politicians need to leave, not follow
    Yes. Polling on this is no use. A starting point of all political leadership is that the public as a whole wants low taxes for themselves and first class public services, and taxes and cuts to fall elsewhere. Polling to show this is futile. We already know it.

    This is as true of the Duke of Westminster (think IHT planning) as it is of benefits junkies.

    So governing is about top quality leadership, not trying to produce the square circle demanded by polling.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,383
    I reckon everybody needs to relax and just wait and see what is in Reeves's budget on October 30. She hasn't made the big decisions yet - just implemented a few manifesto promises, and cut spending promises recklessly made by the previous government that hadn't been funded anyway.

    The Winter Fuel Allowance announcement was clearly only made because Reeves thought, rightly, that October 30 gave too little notice for those affected to budget for it. Everything else will become clearer, but not until the budget.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677
    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
    He's a fucking boring speaker compared to Shapiro and doesn't bring much to the ticket. PA is a closer race than AZ and has nearly twice as many EC votes so it makes sense to concentrate on that. AZ is probably not winnable for Kamala at this stage.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,079

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
    Isn't that essentially what already been done with GP practices, which are private entities which contract with NHS England to provide services ?
    It's hardly an unalloyed success.

    Some successful health services have primary care more closely aligned with, or even attached to hospital services. Others have 'polyclinics', separate from general hospitals, which provide specialist services, but which sometimes blur the line between hospital and clinic.

    I'm not 100% convinced that the large scale structure, as opposed to how things are done within it, makes all that much difference.
    We need to look at health services which do particularly well (see, for instance, Taiwan), and work out why that is.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371
    edited August 6

    I reckon everybody needs to relax and just wait and see what is in Reeves's budget on October 30. She hasn't made the big decisions yet - just implemented a few manifesto promises, and cut spending promises recklessly made by the previous government that hadn't been funded anyway.

    The Winter Fuel Allowance announcement was clearly only made because Reeves thought, rightly, that October 30 gave too little notice for those affected to budget for it. Everything else will become clearer, but not until the budget.

    It also gives more time for citizen's advice, age concern and others to identify the 800,000 pensioners who can claim Pension Credit and currently don't
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,190
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
    He's a fucking boring speaker compared to Shapiro and doesn't bring much to the ticket. PA is a closer race than AZ and has nearly twice as many EC votes so it makes sense to concentrate on that. AZ is probably not winnable for Kamala at this stage.
    Latest polling is neck and neck in both states isn't it? Anyway it seems to be between Shapiro and Walz.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,186
    SteveS said:

    Foxy said:



    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.
    .

    Aren’t EDs funded through a block contract? So they won’t get any additional funding either for the additional attendance. I think you need to compare the marginal cost of a low acuity ED visit vs the cost of a GP attendance. (I still think the ED will be more expensive)

    Steve
    It's about signposting to the appropriate service, I think.

    We have emergency GP appointments, which I can get same morning or day at normal GP cost which may be phone or visit, or 111 which will give advice / tell me what to do, MIUs for certain things, or a full ED visit, or a 999 call - which is the most expensive for everyone, including me.

    The welcome message from my GP tells me in what circs to go direct to 999.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,988
    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    It not only matters, it is so close if Harris picks Shapiro that may well give her Pennsylvania and the election, if not it could go Trump. Minnesota will vote Democrat regardless so Walz adds nothing and losing a bit in the popular vote if leftwingers go Green as Shapiro is too pro Israel and school choice is irrelevant.

    In 2000, another very close election, had Gore picked Florida Senator Nelson rather than Lieberman he would probably have won the state and EC. Whereas if Bush had picked Pennsylvania governor Ridge rather than Cheney he would have won more clearly.

    In 1960 too LBJ likely won Texas for JFK
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371
    MattW said:

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    That's a debate about fact and degree and different services, as we do it already. Blair & Co were experimenting with multifunctional GP clinics back in the 2004-2005 period, under a name I cannot remember.

    I don't know about X-Rays and what the constraints are on instant review; I do think the Medical Records can be reviewed including X-Rays at both places.

    It's a decade since I had a minor op to remove both my big toenails and kill the root (using an acid that I recognised from I think Sherlock Holmes - phenolic acid or prussic acid or something. That was done at my local GP surgery by a variety of nurse.

    At present we have 15-20k nurses based in GP surgeries.

    Politcially at present I think that much of it is still about recovering from the depredations of Slasher Cameron and Sir Guy of Gosborne. (Sorry, @TSE ) It's only over time that I have realised the damage they and their successors did.
    And all those 15-20k nurses will be either doing jobs that the GP had to do or doing the work of district nurses without the travel time as the patient comes to then rather than vice versa.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,652
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not all the government's spending cuts are popular, on the Yougov chart ending the social care costs cap and scrapping spending on new hospitals are massively unpopular. Opinion equally divided on means testing winter fuel allowance.

    Ironically the biggest spending PM since Brown was Johnson. It looks like Boris will still have increased spending more than Sir Keir will too given the cuts Reeves announced

    Though public sector workers and junior doctors rewarded with pay rises for their Labour votes

    I'm surprised you put the armed forces and police in the Labour column. The Tories used to claim them - and aspire to win the votes of doctors, nurses, teachers etc.

  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,497
    eek said:

    Scrapping Dilnot social care plan is very unpopular I see.

    Scrapping a plan that has existed for 12 years and never been implemented?

    All the Social Care and Hospital questions actually reveal is that people want things changed there (a Social care system that works and hospitals that aren't falling down from old age)..
    The failure to implement Dilnot is fascinating for a number of reasons. One, Dilnot says the cost is not all that great, two, we are 12 years in and it keeps being delayed; three, none of the major political parties want attention drawn to it - this dog didn't bark in the election and Labour's cancellation drew little attention in parliament and media.

    Why?
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    This is the worst thing Labour could do!

    https://x.com/HenryNewman/status/1820579603208958055
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,827
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    It not only matters, it is so close if Harris picks Shapiro that may well give her Pennsylvania and the election, if not it could go Trump. Minnesota will vote Democrat regardless so Walz adds nothing and losing a bit in the popular vote if leftwingers go Green as Shapiro is too pro Israel and school choice is irrelevant.

    In 2000, another very close election, had Gore picked Florida Senator Nelson rather than Lieberman he would probably have won the state and EC. Whereas if Bush had picked Pennsylvania governor Ridge rather than Cheney he would have won more clearly.

    In 1960 too LBJ likely won Texas for JFK
    Amazing, does this work if you pick absolutely anyone from the state or does the actual person matter a jot?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,079
    .
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foss said:

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    A cottage hospital in every small town?
    There’s money going into research for cheaper MRI machines and money going into machine diagnostic of scans. Above a certain quality threshold - and below a certain price - it makes sense to start pushing that stuff down and out.
    Isn't it at the development rather than research stage ?
    There's already a working prototype:
    https://physicsworld.com/a/researchers-build-0-05-t-mri-scanner-that-produces-diagnostic-quality-images/

    There are analogous improvements underway in ultrasound scanning.

    But not much of that is something that can be rolled out on a large scale immediately.

    Regarding the issue of GPs, it's unclear that they are necessary - certainly other health systems operate quite successfully without them.
    But such a radical restructuring of the NHS would come with risks matching the potential benefits. Clearly we need to do something, but this government will get only one chance, and they need to get it right; better to muddle on than to get it wrong.
    Which health systems operate without GPs?
    I ought to have said separate GP structures.
    Clearly primary healthcare is a universal requirement; it's just not so clearly separated out as we do.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    It not only matters, it is so close if Harris picks Shapiro that may well give her Pennsylvania and the election, if not it could go Trump. Minnesota will vote Democrat regardless so Walz adds nothing and losing a bit in the popular vote if leftwingers go Green as Shapiro is too pro Israel and school choice is irrelevant.

    In 2000, another very close election, had Gore picked Florida Senator Nelson rather than Lieberman he would probably have won the state and EC. Whereas if Bush had picked Pennsylvania governor Ridge rather than Cheney he would have won more clearly.

    In 1960 too LBJ likely won Texas for JFK
    I doubt Shapiro will win any more PA votes for the Democrats by being VP candidate. He is however an asset for the Dems in a crucial state for them to win. Harris' concern I suspect would be whether he campaigns as energetically if he's not on the ticket.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
    Kelly is relatively small, as one must be to fit in a space ship. Swing voters have a predilection for very large Democrats, such as Tester or Fettermann. Even the current choices may not be large enough, but she definitely won't want to pick one of the smaller ones.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,847
    edited August 6
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Scrapping Dilnot social care plan is very unpopular I see.

    Scrapping a plan that has existed for 12 years and never been implemented?

    All the Social Care and Hospital questions actually reveal is that people want things changed there (a Social care system that works and hospitals that aren't falling down from old age)..
    The failure to implement Dilnot is fascinating for a number of reasons. One, Dilnot says the cost is not all that great, two, we are 12 years in and it keeps being delayed; three, none of the major political parties want attention drawn to it - this dog didn't bark in the election and Labour's cancellation drew little attention in parliament and media.

    Why?
    I suppose it's possible that Labour intend to revisit Dilnot, but not till it is reassessed. As Eek perhaps implies, it is clearly past any likely use-by date: it may still be palatable, but we don't know till someone has a hard look.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,079
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
    He's a fucking boring speaker compared to Shapiro and doesn't bring much to the ticket. PA is a closer race than AZ and has nearly twice as many EC votes so it makes sense to concentrate on that. AZ is probably not winnable for Kamala at this stage.
    Well it quite possibly is, but I agree with the rest of that.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,438
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Scrapping Dilnot social care plan is very unpopular I see.

    Scrapping a plan that has existed for 12 years and never been implemented?

    All the Social Care and Hospital questions actually reveal is that people want things changed there (a Social care system that works and hospitals that aren't falling down from old age)..
    The failure to implement Dilnot is fascinating for a number of reasons. One, Dilnot says the cost is not all that great, two, we are 12 years in and it keeps being delayed; three, none of the major political parties want attention drawn to it - this dog didn't bark in the election and Labour's cancellation drew little attention in parliament and media.

    Why?
    Morning all; very pleasant here.

    I don’t think people are really aware of the care cap….. whatever it’s called…… until it affects them. So that’s claimants and, maybe, their immediate family. Mrs C and I are aware of it, because we know we might need care, but I don’t think it ‘worries’ our heirs and assigns much.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,186
    I agree that the header list is a Curate's Egg.

    I think the top 3 aren't contentious, and will be OK if the NHS service improves, waiting lists down etc.

    Stonehenge Road tunnel was a political arse-saving pork barrel exercise which is way down the list of transport schemes that should be done.

    Winter-fuel allowance is the tricky one politically, but the newspapers which are always demanding benefits cuts for poor people are suddenly squealing at a modest benefit cut for wealthier people. A surprising reaction? On that one, I think RR has the correct judgement, but has been a little too tight at the low end.

    Cancelling the long-term cap is not spending money that had never been spent, since it was part of the financial brick wall the previous Govt had created that was delayed until after the election to try and save their butt. Boris Johnson's Government chose to delay this until after the next Election. I don't like her delaying it, but I can't blame her for not following an agenda laid down by Conservative cynicism.

    However in recent months – and following two changes of prime minister – reform has entirely stalled. In its November 2022 Autumn Statement, the government announced that the cap and means test reforms would be postponed until October 2025. With a general election to be held no later than January 2025, there is therefore a significant risk that these reforms are never implemented.
    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/blogs/reform-social-care-vanishing-over-horizon

    Overall, these are really just tinkerings at the edges. Sea changes are still to come.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    Nunu5 said:

    This is the worst thing Labour could do!

    https://x.com/HenryNewman/status/1820579603208958055

    Surely banning PB would be the worst thing Labour could do.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    rcs1000 said:

    Nunu5 said:

    This is the worst thing Labour could do!

    https://x.com/HenryNewman/status/1820579603208958055

    Surely banning PB would be the worst thing Labour could do.
    Staying in office ?
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
    He's a fucking boring speaker compared to Shapiro and doesn't bring much to the ticket. PA is a closer race than AZ and has nearly twice as many EC votes so it makes sense to concentrate on that. AZ is probably not winnable for Kamala at this stage.
    Why do youthink Arizona is out of reach for Harris? Of the four polls in the last week, she's been up in two, down 2 in one, and the other one she's down 5 but it's from an exceedingly dodgy poll sponsor. I@d say it's quite competitive (I still don't want Kelly for VP, he really is bad at the things she needs from a VP)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,988

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    It not only matters, it is so close if Harris picks Shapiro that may well give her Pennsylvania and the election, if not it could go Trump. Minnesota will vote Democrat regardless so Walz adds nothing and losing a bit in the popular vote if leftwingers go Green as Shapiro is too pro Israel and school choice is irrelevant.

    In 2000, another very close election, had Gore picked Florida Senator Nelson rather than Lieberman he would probably have won the state and EC. Whereas if Bush had picked Pennsylvania governor Ridge rather than Cheney he would have won more clearly.

    In 1960 too LBJ likely won Texas for JFK
    Amazing, does this work if you pick absolutely anyone from the state or does the actual person matter a jot?
    Well obviously they will almost certainly have been elected a US Senator or the state governor from the state anyway
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,988
    edited August 6
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    It not only matters, it is so close if Harris picks Shapiro that may well give her Pennsylvania and the election, if not it could go Trump. Minnesota will vote Democrat regardless so Walz adds nothing and losing a bit in the popular vote if leftwingers go Green as Shapiro is too pro Israel and school choice is irrelevant.

    In 2000, another very close election, had Gore picked Florida Senator Nelson rather than Lieberman he would probably have won the state and EC. Whereas if Bush had picked Pennsylvania governor Ridge rather than Cheney he would have won more clearly.

    In 1960 too LBJ likely won Texas for JFK
    I doubt Shapiro will win any more PA votes for the Democrats by being VP candidate. He is however an asset for the Dems in a crucial state for them to win. Harris' concern I suspect would be whether he campaigns as energetically if he's not on the ticket.
    Shapiro will win votes in the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh suburbs and commuter belt where he outpolled even Biden in his governor's race. That is where the state will be decided with inner city Philadelphia and Pittsburgh going Democrat regardless and rural and small town Pennsylvania going for Trump regardless
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Dura_Ace said:

    Sandpit said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    As someone who could potentially be swayed by the choice, I say pick the astronaut, Mark Kelly.

    Every American kid wanted to be an astronaut at some point, the US space programme holds a special place in the psyche of the country.
    He's a fucking boring speaker compared to Shapiro and doesn't bring much to the ticket. PA is a closer race than AZ and has nearly twice as many EC votes so it makes sense to concentrate on that. AZ is probably not winnable for Kamala at this stage.
    He's also a zionist who shares a revulsion for Netanyahu which is probably not a bad combo at the moment
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,092
    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foss said:

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    A cottage hospital in every small town?
    There’s money going into research for cheaper MRI machines and money going into machine diagnostic of scans. Above a certain quality threshold - and below a certain price - it makes sense to start pushing that stuff down and out.
    Isn't it at the development rather than research stage ?
    There's already a working prototype:
    https://physicsworld.com/a/researchers-build-0-05-t-mri-scanner-that-produces-diagnostic-quality-images/

    There are analogous improvements underway in ultrasound scanning.

    But not much of that is something that can be rolled out on a large scale immediately.

    Regarding the issue of GPs, it's unclear that they are necessary - certainly other health systems operate quite successfully without them.
    But such a radical restructuring of the NHS would come with risks matching the potential benefits. Clearly we need to do something, but this government will get only one chance, and they need to get it right; better to muddle on than to get it wrong.
    Which health systems operate without GPs?
    Most health systems around the world have things like GPs, more normally family practitioners, but they function differently. In the UK system, GPs are the key gatekeepers to other services, while health systems elsewhere in the world often have more direct access to specialists and secondary care. If you want to see a gynaecologist or a dermatologist, you just go see them, rather than having to be referred by your GP. Whether this is actually better or not, there is much debate.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,988
    edited August 6

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not all the government's spending cuts are popular, on the Yougov chart ending the social care costs cap and scrapping spending on new hospitals are massively unpopular. Opinion equally divided on means testing winter fuel allowance.

    Ironically the biggest spending PM since Brown was Johnson. It looks like Boris will still have increased spending more than Sir Keir will too given the cuts Reeves announced

    Though public sector workers and junior doctors rewarded with pay rises for their Labour votes

    I'm surprised you put the armed forces and police in the Labour column. The Tories used to claim them - and aspire to win the votes of doctors, nurses, teachers etc.

    Not always, in 1945 most soldiers voted Labour, only officers voted Tory for example. Lots of police officers even voted Labour in 2017 over May's pay cuts.

    Labour almost always wins most NHS workers, only those who work in private hospitals or surgeries lean Tory
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,134

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    They’ve tried them and not as much cross utilisation as you expect. Also difficult to do “one time” without running spare capacity in radiology for example
    Spare capacity might seem a waste from a throughput point of view, but it's worth having because it reduces latency (i.e. time from patient first showing up to eventual treatment), improves reliability (if a machine fails the patients it should have been used with can be shifted to the spare capacity elsewhere) and probably improves staff retention (they don't feel rushed off their feet all the time). We run too many systems at absolute maximum capacity too often, I think.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607
    The Eurozone construction depression continues:

    The eurozone construction sector remained firmly in contraction territory in July as activity fell markedly again, according to the latest HCOB® PMI data. The rate of decrease in output quickened slightly on the month to the strongest for six months, and continued to be driven by substantial contractions in housing activity, which was once again the worst-performing of the three monitored segments. The downturn was led by weak demand conditions as evidenced by a robust decline in new business. Lower new orders sparked a further round of job shedding, as employment fell at a slightly sharper rate. Retrenchment and cost-cutting were also reflected in a steep contraction in input buying and marked reductions in subcontractor use. That said, cost burdens rose only modestly.

    The HCOB Eurozone Construction PMI Total Activity Index — a seasonally adjusted index tracking monthly changes in total industry activity — posted 41.4 in July, down slightly from 41.8 in June. The latest data was indicative of a steep decrease in total output at the start of the second half of the year.

    The decline in activity was driven by broad-based contractions across the three monitored economies, led by the strongest fall in France since January. Italian firms recorded the steepest decrease in nearly two years, while firms in Germany saw a substantial, albeit slightly softer decline.

    The housing sector continued to weigh heavily on total output and was the worst-performing sector, recorded the most marked reduction since April 2020. Commercial activity saw the sharpest fall for six months, while civil engineering firms recorded a slower reduction in activity.

    Weak demand conditions across the eurozone construction sector continued to drive the overall downturn, as new orders fell again in July. The rate of decline quickened from June and was the most marked since March. All three monitored countries registered marked falls in new business, led by Germany.

    In line with new order inflows, eurozone construction firms cut their workforce numbers at the start of the third quarter. The pace of job shedding quickened slightly from June and was the second-most pronounced in 2024 so far. For the second time in three months all three largest economies saw falling employment, with German firms seeing the steepest reduction.


    https://www.pmi.spglobal.com/Public/Home/PressRelease/ab929c1186d2496b99e8a8898ee1a726
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    algarkirk said:

    eek said:

    Scrapping Dilnot social care plan is very unpopular I see.

    Scrapping a plan that has existed for 12 years and never been implemented?

    All the Social Care and Hospital questions actually reveal is that people want things changed there (a Social care system that works and hospitals that aren't falling down from old age)..
    The failure to implement Dilnot is fascinating for a number of reasons. One, Dilnot says the cost is not all that great, two, we are 12 years in and it keeps being delayed; three, none of the major political parties want attention drawn to it - this dog didn't bark in the election and Labour's cancellation drew little attention in parliament and media.

    Why?
    Dilnot is essentially an insurance policy with a large excess (cap), but no-one wants to pay the premiums. The discussion needs to be on that if it's going anywhere
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,079
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kamski said:

    Does it matter who Harris picks? Shapiro might or might not help in Pennsylvania, on the other hand he might dampen some of the Harris youth enthusiasm because of his strong support for Israel. Walz would at least put a white Christian male on the ticket, if that's worth anything.

    I would choose whoever is going to be best at defending Harris from attacks on her being out of touch Californian liberal elite. Probably Walz.

    It not only matters, it is so close if Harris picks Shapiro that may well give her Pennsylvania and the election, if not it could go Trump. Minnesota will vote Democrat regardless so Walz adds nothing and losing a bit in the popular vote if leftwingers go Green as Shapiro is too pro Israel and school choice is irrelevant.

    In 2000, another very close election, had Gore picked Florida Senator Nelson rather than Lieberman he would probably have won the state and EC. Whereas if Bush had picked Pennsylvania governor Ridge rather than Cheney he would have won more clearly.

    In 1960 too LBJ likely won Texas for JFK
    I doubt Shapiro will win any more PA votes for the Democrats by being VP candidate. He is however an asset for the Dems in a crucial state for them to win. Harris' concern I suspect would be whether he campaigns as energetically if he's not on the ticket.
    Shapiro will win votes in the Philadelphia and Pittsburgh suburbs and commuter belt where he outpolled even Biden in his governor's race. That is where the state will be decided with inner city Philadelphia and Pittsburgh going Democrat regardless and rural and small town Pennsylvania going for Trump regardless
    Presidential elections are not Governor elections.
    Your utter conviction that the VP pick makes any significant difference in their home state is not born out by historical evidence.

    And of course the Harris campaign will have polling evidence not available to us. They'll have a far better idea if there's any significant difference between Shapiro and Walz, and in which of the battleground states.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371

    kamski said:

    Nigelb said:

    Foss said:

    If we were starting from scratch, would we even have GPs?

    Multifunctional clinics, where more can be done as a one stop shop, could be more efficient, quicker and result in better patient outcomes.

    Example: Last week my wife went to the GP, GP decided she needed an X-ray. No kit at the surgery, so a follow-up appointment required elsewhere. Then it will be back to the GP to review the results. Could all be done in one place at one time.

    A cottage hospital in every small town?
    There’s money going into research for cheaper MRI machines and money going into machine diagnostic of scans. Above a certain quality threshold - and below a certain price - it makes sense to start pushing that stuff down and out.
    Isn't it at the development rather than research stage ?
    There's already a working prototype:
    https://physicsworld.com/a/researchers-build-0-05-t-mri-scanner-that-produces-diagnostic-quality-images/

    There are analogous improvements underway in ultrasound scanning.

    But not much of that is something that can be rolled out on a large scale immediately.

    Regarding the issue of GPs, it's unclear that they are necessary - certainly other health systems operate quite successfully without them.
    But such a radical restructuring of the NHS would come with risks matching the potential benefits. Clearly we need to do something, but this government will get only one chance, and they need to get it right; better to muddle on than to get it wrong.
    Which health systems operate without GPs?
    Most health systems around the world have things like GPs, more normally family practitioners, but they function differently. In the UK system, GPs are the key gatekeepers to other services, while health systems elsewhere in the world often have more direct access to specialists and secondary care. If you want to see a gynaecologist or a dermatologist, you just go see them, rather than having to be referred by your GP. Whether this is actually better or not, there is much debate.
    My viewpoint on that is that you let the specialist decide whether they will accept direct requests or insist on a referrel.

    My last experience of the NHS (when Mrs Eek was referred for an emergency, but simple operation) is that both methods work.

  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,847
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not all the government's spending cuts are popular, on the Yougov chart ending the social care costs cap and scrapping spending on new hospitals are massively unpopular. Opinion equally divided on means testing winter fuel allowance.

    Ironically the biggest spending PM since Brown was Johnson. It looks like Boris will still have increased spending more than Sir Keir will too given the cuts Reeves announced

    Though public sector workers and junior doctors rewarded with pay rises for their Labour votes

    I'm surprised you put the armed forces and police in the Labour column. The Tories used to claim them - and aspire to win the votes of doctors, nurses, teachers etc.

    Not always, in 1945 most soldiers voted Labour, only officers voted Tory for example. Lots of police officers even voted Labour in 2017 over May's pay cuts.

    Labour almost always wins most NHS workers, only those who work in private hospitals or surgeries lean Tory
    More jobs for private doctors if the Tories get in, so there we are.

    And many, many officers in the Army at the election of 1945 were Labour voters. Many of them had come in for the war years.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,079

    rcs1000 said:

    Nunu5 said:

    This is the worst thing Labour could do!

    https://x.com/HenryNewman/status/1820579603208958055

    Surely banning PB would be the worst thing Labour could do.
    Staying in office ?
    That would imply their making a success of governing.
    It would hardly be the worst thing - except for those whose partisanship outweighs all else.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,161
    As an aside, the last time the Democrats chose a religious North Eastern Jew as the running mate to a youthful, but largely charisma free ex-VP, they lost the election... Narrowly.

    History is essentially certain to repeat itself, so if Shapiro is the Democratic nominee, I expect it all to come down to hanging chads in Florida.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,092
    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
    Isn't that essentially what already been done with GP practices, which are private entities which contract with NHS England to provide services ?
    It's hardly an unalloyed success.

    Some successful health services have primary care more closely aligned with, or even attached to hospital services. Others have 'polyclinics', separate from general hospitals, which provide specialist services, but which sometimes blur the line between hospital and clinic.

    I'm not 100% convinced that the large scale structure, as opposed to how things are done within it, makes all that much difference.
    We need to look at health services which do particularly well (see, for instance, Taiwan), and work out why that is.
    Well, people -- or academics -- are constantly looking at different health services around the world. The literature is extensive. E.g., https://kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/reports/nhs-compare-health-care-systems-other-countries

    The UK has below-average health spending per person compared to peer countries. Health spending as a share of GDP (gross domestic product) was just below average in 2019 but rose to just above average in 2020 (the first year of the Covid-19 pandemic, which of course had a significant impact on the UK’s economic performance and spending on health services). The UK lags behind other countries in its capital investment, and has substantially fewer key physical resources than many of its peers, including CT and MRI scanners and hospital beds. The UK has strikingly low levels of key clinical staff, including doctors and nurses, and is heavily reliant on foreign-trained staff. Remuneration for some clinical staff groups also appears to be less competitive in the UK than in peer countries.

    And

    For some measures of efficiency, the UK performs better than some other countries. For example, the UK spends less on administration (as a share of total health spending) than comparable countries. This is evidence of efficiency, but it is important to note that good standards of administration are necessary for a health care system to run smoothly.

    Another area where the UK performs relatively well is providing universal health coverage with a low level of private spending. This may sound obvious to someone living in the UK who is used to an NHS free at the point of use, but it is worth highlighting, as this protection from cost is not afforded to people in many other countries. Relatively few people in the UK cannot pay medical bills or skipped medical visits because of the cost of care.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,092

    Nigelb said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    I think anyone with any sense at all can see the government is overspending (as, of course, the last government did, this is not a party political point).

    Current spending really needs to be cut to both reduce the deficit and to give headroom for more investment and capital expenditure to drive future growth. Reeves has a hell of a job on her hands trying to balance this and the Labour party membership who were encouraged to think that somehow there was more money to spend on nice things than the Tories would admit.

    They shackled themselves to the Triple Lock too. It's impossible to end.

    There is scope to spend a lot of money better, but very little room to manoeuvre when so many options were ruled out.
    Let's hope they dont waste more money by paying Danegeld to our unreliable GPs.

    Why reward failure ?
    I am not a GP, but the GP dispute is an odd one. Essentially the GPs are asking for a greater share of NHS spending to go into Primary Care, as 90% of NHS contacts occur there and the percentage of NHS funding spent there has been declining for years, to 8% of the budget. A GP gets less per annum per patient than the cost of a single Emergency Dept visit.

    It's odd because this is Streetings policy too! So shouldn't be a hard one to resolve. GP services are patchy and under incredible strain, particularly in the inner cities and does need investment. Better GP services are the core of a preventative health care strategy.
    It will be interesting to see how Streeting fares. He has made the claim the NHS isnt working and needs reform. To what level he hast said but he will probably getting the backing of most people that something needs to change.

    However the people who will determine his fate are the medical profession and at the moment they are a bit militant - probably the UKs best union. Reeves has tried to buy good will and who knows maybe she has, but Streeting has an uphill task to change things and deserves all the support he can muster.
    I think the NHS is simply too large to manage

    Split it into independent verticals (GP, acute, convalescence, social care) and run them separately
    Isn't that essentially what already been done with GP practices, which are private entities which contract with NHS England to provide services ?
    It's hardly an unalloyed success.

    Some successful health services have primary care more closely aligned with, or even attached to hospital services. Others have 'polyclinics', separate from general hospitals, which provide specialist services, but which sometimes blur the line between hospital and clinic.

    I'm not 100% convinced that the large scale structure, as opposed to how things are done within it, makes all that much difference.
    We need to look at health services which do particularly well (see, for instance, Taiwan), and work out why that is.
    Well, people -- or academics -- are constantly looking at different health services around the world. The literature is extensive. E.g., https://kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/reports/nhs-compare-health-care-systems-other-countries

    The UK has below-average health spending per person compared to peer countries. Health spending as a share of GDP (gross domestic product) was just below average in 2019 but rose to just above average in 2020 (the first year of the Covid-19 pandemic, which of course had a significant impact on the UK’s economic performance and spending on health services). The UK lags behind other countries in its capital investment, and has substantially fewer key physical resources than many of its peers, including CT and MRI scanners and hospital beds. The UK has strikingly low levels of key clinical staff, including doctors and nurses, and is heavily reliant on foreign-trained staff. Remuneration for some clinical staff groups also appears to be less competitive in the UK than in peer countries.

    And

    For some measures of efficiency, the UK performs better than some other countries. For example, the UK spends less on administration (as a share of total health spending) than comparable countries. This is evidence of efficiency, but it is important to note that good standards of administration are necessary for a health care system to run smoothly.

    Another area where the UK performs relatively well is providing universal health coverage with a low level of private spending. This may sound obvious to someone living in the UK who is used to an NHS free at the point of use, but it is worth highlighting, as this protection from cost is not afforded to people in many other countries. Relatively few people in the UK cannot pay medical bills or skipped medical visits because of the cost of care.
    And...

    Spending on health care increased substantially in the UK during the Covid-19 pandemic. But despite this, spending per person remains lower than the average for our basket. This impacts on the patient experience. For example, although there is no objectively ‘ideal’ number of scanners, the UK has fewer CT and MRI scanners than any of the comparator countries, which could be a reason – alongside shortages of imaging staff – for why diagnostic waits in the UK are so high.

    Another area where the UK is strikingly different to comparator countries is in staffing. The below chart shows fewer doctors and fewer nurses per 1,000 people than the average in our basket. While some countries do, for example, have fewer nurses, many counterbalance that by having more doctors. The UK is remarkable as it scores low on both. High vacancy rates and staff dissatisfaction show that the current number is insufficient.

    The UK has higher avoidable mortality and treatable mortality rates than comparator countries. This is driven by below-average survival rates for many major cancers (including cancer of the breast, cervix, colon, rectum, lung and stomach), and poorer outcomes from heart attacks and strokes.

    And, perhaps most interestingly...

    There is little evidence that one individual country or model of health care system performs better than another across the board. Countries improve health care for their populations mainly by reforming their existing model of health care rather than adopting an alternative.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,642
    rcs1000 said:

    As an aside, the last time the Democrats chose a religious North Eastern Jew as the running mate to a youthful, but largely charisma free ex-VP, they lost the election... Narrowly.

    History is essentially certain to repeat itself, so if Shapiro is the Democratic nominee, I expect it all to come down to hanging chads in Florida.

    Can you imagine a Florida 2000 scenario in today’s climate?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,371
    MattW said:

    I agree that the header list is a Curate's Egg.

    I think the top 3 aren't contentious, and will be OK if the NHS service improves, waiting lists down etc.

    Stonehenge Road tunnel was a political arse-saving pork barrel exercise which is way down the list of transport schemes that should be done.

    Winter-fuel allowance is the tricky one politically, but the newspapers which are always demanding benefits cuts for poor people are suddenly squealing at a modest benefit cut for wealthier people. A surprising reaction? On that one, I think RR has the correct judgement, but has been a little too tight at the low end.

    Cancelling the long-term cap is not spending money that had never been spent, since it was part of the financial brick wall the previous Govt had created that was delayed until after the election to try and save their butt. Boris Johnson's Government chose to delay this until after the next Election. I don't like her delaying it, but I can't blame her for not following an agenda laid down by Conservative cynicism.

    However in recent months – and following two changes of prime minister – reform has entirely stalled. In its November 2022 Autumn Statement, the government announced that the cap and means test reforms would be postponed until October 2025. With a general election to be held no later than January 2025, there is therefore a significant risk that these reforms are never implemented.
    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/blogs/reform-social-care-vanishing-over-horizon

    Overall, these are really just tinkerings at the edges. Sea changes are still to come.

    I will repeat on the winter fuel allowance that the point the allowance goes is way too low but there is no means of avoiding that due to the lack of datasets available that can be used. The options were all pensioners or just those getting pension credit where in reality is should be going to anyone receiving less than £x,000..
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,186
    Nunu5 said:

    This is the worst thing Labour could do!

    https://x.com/HenryNewman/status/1820579603208958055

    That's a strange one, and there's a lot of ill-informed knee-jerking on that thread.

    I'm not exactly clear where they would find swathes of empty properties.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607
    Whereas it continues to be the happy time in UK construction:

    Growth accelerated in the UK construction sector as the second half of the year got underway, with July seeing much faster increases in both activity and new orders during the month. In turn, firms ramped up purchasing activity and raised staffing levels for the third month running. Higher demand for inputs imparted some pressure on supply chains, and input costs increased at a faster pace.

    The headline S&P Global UK Construction Purchasing Managers’ Index™ (PMI®) – a seasonally adjusted index
    tracking changes in total industry activity – rose sharply to 55.3 in July from 52.2 in June. The reading signalled a marked monthly expansion in total activity in the construction sector, extending the current sequence of growth to five months. Moreover, the rate of expansion was the fastest since May 2022.

    All three categories of construction saw activity increase in July as work on housing projects returned to growth.
    Commercial activity increased solidly, but the fastest expansion was seen in civil engineering activity, where the rate of growth quickened to the sharpest in almost two-and-a-half years.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,587
    Roger said:

    Thank goodness we have a Labour government. Having watched Newsnight last night it's crystal clear that the last government have been fanning the flames of the idea and undesirability of 'others'.

    It has encouraged an ugly group of moronic racists who though in a tiny minority with the wrong government could have flourished. I'm confident this government will not give an inch to these vile people and neither should they.

    Had we not had an election when we did I have serious doubts that the last government would have have done this. They would at best have eqivocated as was seen by Andrea Jenkins last night.

    Though the numbers are tiny make no mistake we have seen blackshirts on our streets. I've never seen cars stopped and people being asked if they're 'White British' or hotels with immigrants being invaded and set alight with immigrants inside and politicians like Andrea Jenkins finding equivalence.

    How sure are you these riots would have happened if the tories had won?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,575
    carnforth said:

    Roger said:

    Thank goodness we have a Labour government. Having watched Newsnight last night it's crystal clear that the last government have been fanning the flames of the idea and undesirability of 'others'.

    It has encouraged an ugly group of moronic racists who though in a tiny minority with the wrong government could have flourished. I'm confident this government will not give an inch to these vile people and neither should they.

    Had we not had an election when we did I have serious doubts that the last government would have have done this. They would at best have eqivocated as was seen by Andrea Jenkins last night.

    Though the numbers are tiny make no mistake we have seen blackshirts on our streets. I've never seen cars stopped and people being asked if they're 'White British' or hotels with immigrants being invaded and set alight with immigrants inside and politicians like Andrea Jenkins finding equivalence.

    How sure are you these riots would have happened if the tories had won?
    If the Tories had won, there would be a very different profile to the rioters... Roger would have been building barricades!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,847
    MattW said:

    Nunu5 said:

    This is the worst thing Labour could do!

    https://x.com/HenryNewman/status/1820579603208958055

    That's a strange one, and there's a lot of ill-informed knee-jerking on that thread.

    I'm not exactly clear where they would find swathes of empty properties.
    Be more efficient to get the relevant court system speeded up. The Tories were making noises about that.

    Of course, it would be ironic to see rioters and boat people both get top tier treatment compared to the rest of us.
This discussion has been closed.