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How to stem the rise of the far right – politicalbetting.com

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  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,380
    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    JK Rowling endorses Communist Party candidates.

    https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1804592902167019897

    JK Rowling is, of course, batshit insane.

    Plenty of people like that, just not many with a million+ followers on social media.

    I pay her the same attention I pay any drooling lunatic at closing time in any local pub.
    I am sure she would think the same of you if she even knew you existed.
    If I were a billionaire, I would probably find better ways to spend my days than sitting on social media drumming up hatred for oppressed minorities.

    But hey-ho.

    I've never watched or read any of her fiction, the only reason I know of her existence is because she's a massive [expletive deleted].
    This posting shows you might actually be a better writer of fiction than she is.
    I've never watched a movie based on her stories or read one of her books. If it weren't for the trans stuff, as far as I'm concerned she'd be no more famous than Leon. I.e. an author who shitposts online far too much and is a bit touched in the head by certain issues.

    The difference is I actually like Leon, and think he has a modicum of wit.
    I was not referring to her abilities (which are prodigious) but more towards yours. You do a fine line in deranged fantasy. Like Lovecraft but with more drugs.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,970
    Night night PB. Bon nuit

    At least the world is entertaining us. Look at it that way x
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,836
    DougSeal said:

    I reckon these two teams could play 200 minutes and still not score.

    That was a superbly timed post.
    He must have been typing as the ball was going in
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614

    Big week coming. We will have an @IpsosUK voting intention poll out midweek. Exact timing tbc. One not to miss 👀 🔜

    https://x.com/keiranpedley/status/1804984880868061327

    Er... we're going to have a dozen or more polls out next week, why does Keiran think this one is 'not to miss'?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,341
    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,152
    Pro_Rata said:

    Cookie said:

    Heathener said:

    FFS loads of old guys opining about Taylor Swift. It’s like me saying I don’t see the appeal of Enrico Caruso.

    Yes a lot of us brought up children over the last 15 yrs and Taylor has been a staple. Writes her own catchy songs, works incredibly hard, a great business mind.

    Re. JK Rowling, she fiddled with the early HP films to their detriment. Best leave a writer to her genre. Whenever authors meddle in film production it invariably ends badly.

    Leon’s comment that Victoria Starmer ‘must have been an absolute stunner once’ is pure perviness coming from a 62 yr old man. The kind that makes my toes curl.
    Strong "creepy uncle vibes" indeed
    At what age must men stop finding women attractive Horse? I don't think he's cracking on to her.
    Leon not demonstrating creepy uncle vibes. Are you new here?
    Creepy uncle?

    You do know Victoria Starmer is 61?
    Seriously? In a way, they are a glimpse of the future having kids in their late 40s rather than in their late 30s.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,909

    Big week coming. We will have an @IpsosUK voting intention poll out midweek. Exact timing tbc. One not to miss 👀 🔜

    https://x.com/keiranpedley/status/1804984880868061327

    Er... we're going to have a dozen or more polls out next week, why does Keiran think this one is 'not to miss'?
    Cause he works for them?
  • MuesliMuesli Posts: 202

    Every time you see a replay it is a penalty.

    Apparently the ref had a bet with Rishi Sunak’s bookmaker that there’d be no penalties awarded tonight.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,341

    Big week coming. We will have an @IpsosUK voting intention poll out midweek. Exact timing tbc. One not to miss 👀 🔜

    https://x.com/keiranpedley/status/1804984880868061327

    Er... we're going to have a dozen or more polls out next week, why does Keiran think this one is 'not to miss'?
    The blue arrow suggests its Reform - either major crossover, or major slipping back??

    Come on Nige. :lol:
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614
    RobD said:

    Big week coming. We will have an @IpsosUK voting intention poll out midweek. Exact timing tbc. One not to miss 👀 🔜

    https://x.com/keiranpedley/status/1804984880868061327

    Er... we're going to have a dozen or more polls out next week, why does Keiran think this one is 'not to miss'?
    Cause he works for them?
    I was actually wondering if there was anything special about this poll. It can't be the results because, presumably, Ipsos hasn't done the poll yet.
  • VI: SNP 2 (-2)
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280

    Big week coming. We will have an @IpsosUK voting intention poll out midweek. Exact timing tbc. One not to miss 👀 🔜

    https://x.com/keiranpedley/status/1804984880868061327

    Er... we're going to have a dozen or more polls out next week, why does Keiran think this one is 'not to miss'?
    IPSOS going for gold standard, in the sense that their polls are rare.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,221
    vino said:

    Thanks Vino! Hmmm...I think after Brexit, 'referendum' is probably too dirty a word. And I confess I don't know enough about the Swiss system. In general I wonder if we need to get away from the tyranny of the majority where we can. The Swiss may do this.

    Referendum is only a dirty word to 48% of the voting population so what you are saying is that people just have to accept laws that the majority are against - seems an incentive to vote right wing

    Not what I meant, I expressed myself poorly I think.

    I think there is an issue with making complex policy decisions a binary choice. I don't know if that's what the Swiss system does. I do think it's what the Brexit referendum did. I think many of the 52% would acknowledge that we haven't reached the outcome they hoped for.

    And I want right wing, left wing etc to have a voice even if they are not the majority. I think citizens assemblies achieve this.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    edited June 23

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway because all you would do is stop businesses expanding beyond the £250,000 turnover threshold.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    I see we're now at the "we don't understand what's happening in the country so let's try and tie everything to Putin" phase of the campaign.

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1804975043547746546

    Matt Goodwin is a Russian mouthpiece and an utter tool.

    He is an utter helmet. Why do otherwise sensible people follow him around?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614

    Big week coming. We will have an @IpsosUK voting intention poll out midweek. Exact timing tbc. One not to miss 👀 🔜

    https://x.com/keiranpedley/status/1804984880868061327

    Er... we're going to have a dozen or more polls out next week, why does Keiran think this one is 'not to miss'?
    The blue arrow suggests its Reform - either major crossover, or major slipping back??

    Come on Nige. :lol:
    Could it be the Ipsos poll referred to in tomorrow's FT?:

    Conservatives lose a third of their voters since January, survey finds

    https://x.com/hendopolis/status/1804979917567754627
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 790

    nico679 said:

    Betting Gate is no Partygate .

    It’s pretty low level stuff but just feeds into the narrative of the Tories lack of integrity and just thinking they can do whatever they like.

    A new bettingate twist from the Betfair forum, pointing out there were other markets in play. This is the graph for Rishi to be replaced as Conservative leader in the year 2024.

    Or indeed the quarterlies market, where I had my bets (i.e July-September) and three times as much was traded as the monthly bets, but they don't seem to have been mentioned.

    Given that the cheaters seem to have been morons though, I should imagine that the most obvious bets were the ones taken.
  • eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
  • darkagedarkage Posts: 5,376

    darkage said:

    A key problem facing the advanced western countries is the difficulty in getting anything done due to the legal/bureaucratic state. The solution to every problem is more regulations and process, all of which is inherently imperfect and contradictory. There was a realisation of the problems this was creating in the 1980's but no lasting or meaningful answer was ever settled on. So now most work in the economy is connected to the implementation of process or regulation rather than being productive or creative in its own right.

    The conservatives had 14 years and made the situation I have described above worse. Labour will continue this trend. But the whole system needs rapid disruption - perhaps this is inevitable as the rest of the world adapts faster to technological innovation. It feels to me like the centrist parties (IE all the main parties) are just part of the old world and they will be transformed or swept away by something new, it may be called 'far right' but it is not necessarily correct to view it this way.

    This is most incisive analysis.

    In my own industry I have watched over nearly 40 years the situation has gone from 90% of the cost /time is for doing the work / 10% for "getting permission" and documenting the work, to the exact opposite.

    The standards are more and more complex (and often conflict with each other) to the extent that you almost need to be a lawyer to interpret the correct course of action.

    Compare and contrast the cost of building a mileof motorway in the 1970s with the cost of doing so now (exponentially greater). This is why.


    And again… https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/02/04/the-state-of-process-the-process-state/
    I would say on this, that 'process' is connected to the proliferation of law/regulation which is the responsibility of the government. You can meaningfully redesign things to reduce processes but you can't stop the government reeling out more and more laws/rules. The only thing that will stop it is an existential crisis.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 790
    edited June 23
    OnboardG1 said:

    My last comment before I go indulge in some traditional alcoholism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtPBFHKSNg

    Non-traditional alcoholism is far more fun. It's how I ended up with the aformentioned backs of July-September at 15 and 30 for a start...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,753
    Heartbreak for Scotland :(
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited June 23
    darkage said:

    darkage said:

    A key problem facing the advanced western countries is the difficulty in getting anything done due to the legal/bureaucratic state. The solution to every problem is more regulations and process, all of which is inherently imperfect and contradictory. There was a realisation of the problems this was creating in the 1980's but no lasting or meaningful answer was ever settled on. So now most work in the economy is connected to the implementation of process or regulation rather than being productive or creative in its own right.

    The conservatives had 14 years and made the situation I have described above worse. Labour will continue this trend. But the whole system needs rapid disruption - perhaps this is inevitable as the rest of the world adapts faster to technological innovation. It feels to me like the centrist parties (IE all the main parties) are just part of the old world and they will be transformed or swept away by something new, it may be called 'far right' but it is not necessarily correct to view it this way.

    This is most incisive analysis.

    In my own industry I have watched over nearly 40 years the situation has gone from 90% of the cost /time is for doing the work / 10% for "getting permission" and documenting the work, to the exact opposite.

    The standards are more and more complex (and often conflict with each other) to the extent that you almost need to be a lawyer to interpret the correct course of action.

    Compare and contrast the cost of building a mileof motorway in the 1970s with the cost of doing so now (exponentially greater). This is why.


    And again… https://www1.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2024/02/04/the-state-of-process-the-process-state/
    I would say on this, that 'process' is connected to the proliferation of law/regulation which is the responsibility of the government. You can meaningfully redesign things to reduce processes but you can't stop the government reeling out more and more laws/rules. The only thing that will stop it is an existential crisis.
    Just as it did in Russia in 1991. Its inevitable now in the west I fear.

    China et al dedollaraising is pulling the plug on the west.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    edited June 23

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
  • vinovino Posts: 169
    maxh said:

    vino said:

    Thanks Vino! Hmmm...I think after Brexit, 'referendum' is probably too dirty a word. And I confess I don't know enough about the Swiss system. In general I wonder if we need to get away from the tyranny of the majority where we can. The Swiss may do this.

    Referendum is only a dirty word to 48% of the voting population so what you are saying is that people just have to accept laws that the majority are against - seems an incentive to vote right wing

    Not what I meant, I expressed myself poorly I think.

    I think there is an issue with making complex policy decisions a binary choice. I don't know if that's what the Swiss system does. I do think it's what the Brexit referendum did. I think many of the 52% would acknowledge that we haven't reached the outcome they hoped for.

    And I want right wing, left wing etc to have a voice even if they are not the majority. I think citizens assemblies achieve this.
    Swiss Referendum System - To challenge a law, citizens must collect 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of a new law. If they manage to do it, a nationwide referendum is held. And if the majority of the voters reject the law, it is cancelled. What's wrong with this system? sounds like perfect government.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280
    edited June 23
    tlg86 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Cookie said:

    Heathener said:

    FFS loads of old guys opining about Taylor Swift. It’s like me saying I don’t see the appeal of Enrico Caruso.

    Yes a lot of us brought up children over the last 15 yrs and Taylor has been a staple. Writes her own catchy songs, works incredibly hard, a great business mind.

    Re. JK Rowling, she fiddled with the early HP films to their detriment. Best leave a writer to her genre. Whenever authors meddle in film production it invariably ends badly.

    Leon’s comment that Victoria Starmer ‘must have been an absolute stunner once’ is pure perviness coming from a 62 yr old man. The kind that makes my toes curl.
    Strong "creepy uncle vibes" indeed
    At what age must men stop finding women attractive Horse? I don't think he's cracking on to her.
    Leon not demonstrating creepy uncle vibes. Are you new here?
    Creepy uncle?

    You do know Victoria Starmer is 61?
    Seriously? In a way, they are a glimpse of the future having kids in their late 40s rather than in their late 30s.
    I've looked around again. Read an article from a year or two back that claimed she is (now) 61 and that is what Google headlines but we also have:

    Mirror - 51
    Telegraph - age unknown
    Tatler - 49
    (Must admit, thought it was a Tatler article from a while back that led me to think 61 when I first checked)

    So, who knows!
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000....

    Because that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided.
    So even more people think Fuck it, pack it in and do 16 hours a week at Tesco on minimum wage, pay no tax, and claim more off fewer remaining taxpayers in Universal Credit.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 790
    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000....

    Because that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided.
    Does anyone still do VAT lotteries? I remember last time I went to Slovenia, which is a few years ago now, every time you got a VAT receipt as a consumer you could enter it into some kind of lottery for free. This made sure everyone gave you a receipt!
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,803
    TimS said:


    Boris Johnson
    @BorisJohnson

    This is nauseating ahistorical drivel and more Kremlin propaganda. Nobody provoked Putin. Nobody “poked the bear with a stick”. The people of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly in 1991 to be a sovereign and independent country. They were perfectly entitled to seek both NATO and EU membership. There is only one person responsible for Russian aggression against Ukraine - both in 2014 and 2022 - and that is Putin. To try to spread the blame is morally repugnant and parroting Putin’s lies.

    It is bizarre that the author should also suggest we now reduce our support for Ukraine, when the solution to the conflict is in fact clear - the Ukrainians need to win, and to repel Putin’s invasion. They can and they will. The problem in the last 30 years has not been western provocation but western weakness in the face of Russian aggression - a weakness exemplified by this article.

    https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/22/wests-errors-in-ukraine-been-catastrophic-i-wont-apologise/

    The one area where Johnson has been consistently stronger and more straightforward than most of his peers.
    Well, sort of. He was quite happy with Russian contacts till he saw which way the wind was blowing, then in true Johnson style, he raced to the front.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614

    VI: SNP 2 (-2)

    A little context would be useful.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,280

    OnboardG1 said:

    My last comment before I go indulge in some traditional alcoholism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtPBFHKSNg

    Non-traditional alcoholism is far more fun. It's how I ended up with the aformentioned backs of July-September at 15 and 30 for a start...
    You were out drinking with a Tory aide?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,341

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    He just has no pissing idea.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000....

    Because that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided.
    So even more people think Fuck it, pack it in and do 16 hours a week at Tesco on minimum wage, pay no tax, and claim more off fewer remaining taxpayers in Universal Credit.
    Fair enough - but once you children hit 16, you discover that living on universal credit without children to bump up what you receive is not a good idea.

    But clearly you don't understand why most EU countries have reduced the threshold over the years and I can't be bothered to explain that most people actually want a half decent standard of living so the go and work at Tesco stage doesn't last that long...
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    edited June 23

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    He just has no pissing idea.
    Um someone round here has no idea - and I doubt it's the person who used to fly around Europe working...

    Hint once everyone is charging VAT, there is zero incentive to play games and stop working - the perverse incentive of only working a 3 day week or taking January to March off disappears because there is zero incentive to keep your turnover low.

  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    Carnyx said:


    Taz said:

    I don't get Taylor Swift mania. She isn't Kylie, so what's the fuss about?

    Kylie is massively overrated AFAIC. She is no Debbie Harry
    Debbie Harry is no Clare Grogan.
    Just waiting for a PBer to complain from personal experience that neither is Sarah Bernhardt.
    If you'd said Sarah Cracknell I'd have been with you.

    (No personal experience. But a guy can dream.)
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    On topic if you're going to talk about "neo-liberalism" can you define it first because people mean wildly different things by it.
  • vinovino Posts: 169
    Farooq said:

    vino said:

    maxh said:

    vino said:

    Thanks Vino! Hmmm...I think after Brexit, 'referendum' is probably too dirty a word. And I confess I don't know enough about the Swiss system. In general I wonder if we need to get away from the tyranny of the majority where we can. The Swiss may do this.

    Referendum is only a dirty word to 48% of the voting population so what you are saying is that people just have to accept laws that the majority are against - seems an incentive to vote right wing

    Not what I meant, I expressed myself poorly I think.

    I think there is an issue with making complex policy decisions a binary choice. I don't know if that's what the Swiss system does. I do think it's what the Brexit referendum did. I think many of the 52% would acknowledge that we haven't reached the outcome they hoped for.

    And I want right wing, left wing etc to have a voice even if they are not the majority. I think citizens assemblies achieve this.
    Swiss Referendum System - To challenge a law, citizens must collect 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of a new law. If they manage to do it, a nationwide referendum is held. And if the majority of the voters reject the law, it is cancelled. What's wrong with this system? sounds like perfect government.
    Sclerosis, that's what. Nothing gets done. Conservatism by design.
    Fair point - will look at the referendum reults
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556
    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    There are no shortages of jobs and opportunities in northern areas now.

    And if we include opportunities to own a home its far easier to do so away from London and the waitrose belt.

    In fact if you're a young, northern working class male then the opportunities now are probably better than they have ever been and likely better than most southern middle class equivalents.

    That's opportunities though, not guarantees or certainties.

    There will still be many who fall by the wayside unfortunately.

    Likewise most of the older 'left behinds' will continue to be 'left behind' - its all a question of having a useful skillset and the longer people don't have one the harder it is for them to get one.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,341
    Farooq said:

    vino said:

    maxh said:

    vino said:

    Thanks Vino! Hmmm...I think after Brexit, 'referendum' is probably too dirty a word. And I confess I don't know enough about the Swiss system. In general I wonder if we need to get away from the tyranny of the majority where we can. The Swiss may do this.

    Referendum is only a dirty word to 48% of the voting population so what you are saying is that people just have to accept laws that the majority are against - seems an incentive to vote right wing

    Not what I meant, I expressed myself poorly I think.

    I think there is an issue with making complex policy decisions a binary choice. I don't know if that's what the Swiss system does. I do think it's what the Brexit referendum did. I think many of the 52% would acknowledge that we haven't reached the outcome they hoped for.

    And I want right wing, left wing etc to have a voice even if they are not the majority. I think citizens assemblies achieve this.
    Swiss Referendum System - To challenge a law, citizens must collect 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of a new law. If they manage to do it, a nationwide referendum is held. And if the majority of the voters reject the law, it is cancelled. What's wrong with this system? sounds like perfect government.
    Sclerosis, that's what. Nothing gets done. Conservatism by design.
    Yes, I'm sure the Swiss are crying all the way to the bank.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614
    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271
    I agree almost entirely with this header.

    Thanks very much.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    As I said tax goes digitial in April 2026 - It could easily be set at whatever the level is for registering as Self employed with HMRC...
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,788

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Pensioner class or pleb class personal allowance?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920

    TimS said:


    Boris Johnson
    @BorisJohnson

    This is nauseating ahistorical drivel and more Kremlin propaganda. Nobody provoked Putin. Nobody “poked the bear with a stick”. The people of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly in 1991 to be a sovereign and independent country. They were perfectly entitled to seek both NATO and EU membership. There is only one person responsible for Russian aggression against Ukraine - both in 2014 and 2022 - and that is Putin. To try to spread the blame is morally repugnant and parroting Putin’s lies.

    It is bizarre that the author should also suggest we now reduce our support for Ukraine, when the solution to the conflict is in fact clear - the Ukrainians need to win, and to repel Putin’s invasion. They can and they will. The problem in the last 30 years has not been western provocation but western weakness in the face of Russian aggression - a weakness exemplified by this article.

    https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/22/wests-errors-in-ukraine-been-catastrophic-i-wont-apologise/

    The one area where Johnson has been consistently stronger and more straightforward than most of his peers.
    Well, sort of. He was quite happy with Russian contacts till he saw which way the wind was blowing, then in true Johnson style, he raced to the front.
    The turning point was the Salisbury poisonings. As it was, I think, for a lot of people. He did a decent job as foreign secretary getting international support for sanctions.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556
    So what's rarer:

    A cyclist in a cycle lane.

    Someone playing basketball in a park basketball court.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920
    Just started watching Baby Reindeer. Quite realistically scary.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,471
    "How ‘selfish and entitled’ millennials are capitalising on a £71 trillion goldmine
    As baby boomer parents die, a record number of wills are being challenged in the courts
    Charlotte Lytton"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/inheritance/troubling-rise-in-inheritance-legal-challenges/
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,221
    vino said:

    maxh said:

    vino said:

    Thanks Vino! Hmmm...I think after Brexit, 'referendum' is probably too dirty a word. And I confess I don't know enough about the Swiss system. In general I wonder if we need to get away from the tyranny of the majority where we can. The Swiss may do this.

    Referendum is only a dirty word to 48% of the voting population so what you are saying is that people just have to accept laws that the majority are against - seems an incentive to vote right wing

    Not what I meant, I expressed myself poorly I think.

    I think there is an issue with making complex policy decisions a binary choice. I don't know if that's what the Swiss system does. I do think it's what the Brexit referendum did. I think many of the 52% would acknowledge that we haven't reached the outcome they hoped for.

    And I want right wing, left wing etc to have a voice even if they are not the majority. I think citizens assemblies achieve this.
    Swiss Referendum System - To challenge a law, citizens must collect 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of a new law. If they manage to do it, a nationwide referendum is held. And if the majority of the voters reject the law, it is cancelled. What's wrong with this system? sounds like perfect government.
    Thanks (genuinely) for doing my Googling for me. That does sound sensible to me.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,906

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    JK Rowling endorses Communist Party candidates.

    https://x.com/jk_rowling/status/1804592902167019897

    JK Rowling is, of course, batshit insane.

    Plenty of people like that, just not many with a million+ followers on social media.

    I pay her the same attention I pay any drooling lunatic at closing time in any local pub.
    I am sure she would think the same of you if she even knew you existed.
    If I were a billionaire, I would probably find better ways to spend my days than sitting on social media drumming up hatred for oppressed minorities.

    But hey-ho.

    I've never watched or read any of her fiction, the only reason I know of her existence is because she's a massive [expletive deleted].
    This posting shows you might actually be a better writer of fiction than she is.
    I've never watched a movie based on her stories or read one of her books. If it weren't for the trans stuff, as far as I'm concerned she'd be no more famous than Leon. I.e. an author who shitposts online far too much and is a bit touched in the head by certain issues.

    The difference is I actually like Leon, and think he has a modicum of wit.
    I was not referring to her abilities (which are prodigious) but more towards yours. You do a fine line in deranged fantasy. Like Lovecraft but with more drugs.
    Citation required before you call me out like that, bud. If you have something to say it, say it, rather than pathetically insinuate stuff.

    Put up or shut up.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920

    So what's rarer:

    A cyclist in a cycle lane.

    Someone playing basketball in a park basketball court.

    Every time I walk past Hilly Fields park or Ravensbourne park basketball courts there seem to be people playing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,550
    Pro_Rata said:

    tlg86 said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    Cookie said:

    Heathener said:

    FFS loads of old guys opining about Taylor Swift. It’s like me saying I don’t see the appeal of Enrico Caruso.

    Yes a lot of us brought up children over the last 15 yrs and Taylor has been a staple. Writes her own catchy songs, works incredibly hard, a great business mind.

    Re. JK Rowling, she fiddled with the early HP films to their detriment. Best leave a writer to her genre. Whenever authors meddle in film production it invariably ends badly.

    Leon’s comment that Victoria Starmer ‘must have been an absolute stunner once’ is pure perviness coming from a 62 yr old man. The kind that makes my toes curl.
    Strong "creepy uncle vibes" indeed
    At what age must men stop finding women attractive Horse? I don't think he's cracking on to her.
    Leon not demonstrating creepy uncle vibes. Are you new here?
    Creepy uncle?

    You do know Victoria Starmer is 61?
    Seriously? In a way, they are a glimpse of the future having kids in their late 40s rather than in their late 30s.
    I've looked around again. Read an article from a year or two back that claimed she is (now) 61 and that is what Google headlines but we also have:

    Mirror - 51
    Telegraph - age unknown
    Tatler - 49
    (Must admit, thought it was a Tatler article from a while back that led me to think 61 when I first checked)

    So, who knows!
    She looks quite young in her wedding photo from 2007, so I would think about 50 now.

    Anther vegetarian for number 10 too. Its getting to be a habit.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    Andy_JS said:

    "How ‘selfish and entitled’ millennials are capitalising on a £71 trillion goldmine
    As baby boomer parents die, a record number of wills are being challenged in the courts
    Charlotte Lytton"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/tax/inheritance/troubling-rise-in-inheritance-legal-challenges/

    The only people capitalising on that £71trillion goldmine is the lawyers praying on idiotic family arguments...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,715
    edited June 23

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Pensioner class or pleb class personal allowance?
    They're the same, pretty much. The basic state pension is very close to the basic non-pensioner ICT personal allowance (for lower incomes), ergo the pensioner ICT allowance is much the same. It's only different for really old people who are married, and it's not that great even then.

    Mr Sunak's rhetoric has perhaps overshot the mark.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,495

    On topic if you're going to talk about "neo-liberalism" can you define it first because people mean wildly different things by it.

    Isn’t it defined as “everything bad”?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556
    TimS said:

    So what's rarer:

    A cyclist in a cycle lane.

    Someone playing basketball in a park basketball court.

    Every time I walk past Hilly Fields park or Ravensbourne park basketball courts there seem to be people playing.
    I sometimes see kids playing in basketball courts but what they're playing is two/three side football.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    edited June 23
    TimS said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
    I don't know - now (well October) would be the absolute perfect time to announce it from April 2026 alongside say a token reduction in VAT rates then...

    By the time the next election came around everyone would be used to it...

    Remember the ideal time to implement something is in the first 18 months of a Parliament. By the time the next election has come round (say after 48 months) everyone will be used to the changes...

    Lowering the VAT threshold with decent reasons would be forgotten by the next election. The bigger issue is things like council tax where revaluations have a massive lead time so the date of implementation would be just before the election was called...
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Big week coming. We will have an @IpsosUK voting intention poll out midweek. Exact timing tbc. One not to miss 👀 🔜

    https://x.com/keiranpedley/status/1804984880868061327

    Er... we're going to have a dozen or more polls out next week, why does Keiran think this one is 'not to miss'?
    It would be refreshing if for once pollsters said: “We have yet another boring MOE survey coming out at some point next week. Go down the pub. Meet friends. Put your bloody phone away you sad twats.”
  • vinovino Posts: 169
    maxh said:

    vino said:

    maxh said:

    vino said:

    Thanks Vino! Hmmm...I think after Brexit, 'referendum' is probably too dirty a word. And I confess I don't know enough about the Swiss system. In general I wonder if we need to get away from the tyranny of the majority where we can. The Swiss may do this.

    Referendum is only a dirty word to 48% of the voting population so what you are saying is that people just have to accept laws that the majority are against - seems an incentive to vote right wing

    Not what I meant, I expressed myself poorly I think.

    I think there is an issue with making complex policy decisions a binary choice. I don't know if that's what the Swiss system does. I do think it's what the Brexit referendum did. I think many of the 52% would acknowledge that we haven't reached the outcome they hoped for.

    And I want right wing, left wing etc to have a voice even if they are not the majority. I think citizens assemblies achieve this.
    Swiss Referendum System - To challenge a law, citizens must collect 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of a new law. If they manage to do it, a nationwide referendum is held. And if the majority of the voters reject the law, it is cancelled. What's wrong with this system? sounds like perfect government.
    Thanks (genuinely) for doing my Googling for me. That does sound sensible to me.
    Agree - everyone is part of the system so will accept referendum results that they don't like.Thanks again for a real good thread
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,271


    Boris Johnson
    @BorisJohnson

    This is nauseating ahistorical drivel and more Kremlin propaganda. Nobody provoked Putin. Nobody “poked the bear with a stick”. The people of Ukraine voted overwhelmingly in 1991 to be a sovereign and independent country. They were perfectly entitled to seek both NATO and EU membership. There is only one person responsible for Russian aggression against Ukraine - both in 2014 and 2022 - and that is Putin. To try to spread the blame is morally repugnant and parroting Putin’s lies.

    It is bizarre that the author should also suggest we now reduce our support for Ukraine, when the solution to the conflict is in fact clear - the Ukrainians need to win, and to repel Putin’s invasion. They can and they will. The problem in the last 30 years has not been western provocation but western weakness in the face of Russian aggression - a weakness exemplified by this article.

    https://telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/06/22/wests-errors-in-ukraine-been-catastrophic-i-wont-apologise/

    Would that be this Boris Johnson?

    "Boris Johnson blamed EU for Russia’s 2014 attacks on Ukraine and was branded ‘Putin apologist’
    Future prime minister was condemned for arguing Brussels had ‘caused real trouble’ in Ukraine – in stark contrast to current stance"

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-ukraine-russia-brexit-b2024817.html
    I respect a person who recognises a past mistake and corrects it. Well done Boris Johnson!
  • I need a speculative article on the likely impact on voting behaviour of home nations exiting major tournaments.
  • maxhmaxh Posts: 1,221

    On topic if you're going to talk about "neo-liberalism" can you define it first because people mean wildly different things by it.

    Fair challenge, I was trying not to write an essay. I did link to the definition I am using (though that requires you to listen to a podcast, sorry, and it's from Monbiot who I know triggers some people: https://neweconomics.org/2024/06/how-do-we-tell-a-new-story-about-neoliberalism)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920

    TimS said:

    So what's rarer:

    A cyclist in a cycle lane.

    Someone playing basketball in a park basketball court.

    Every time I walk past Hilly Fields park or Ravensbourne park basketball courts there seem to be people playing.
    I sometimes see kids playing in basketball courts but what they're playing is two/three side football.
    It’s generally men in their 20s and 30s here.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614
    edited June 23

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Pensioner class or pleb class personal allowance?
    Pensioner class Personal Allowance has been filed under 'Never happening'.
  • onepureradgeonepureradge Posts: 45
    Unpopular said:

    Scotland going home to think again.

    Are you fucking twelve? Dick.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,854

    FPT

    When parliament reconvenes he's going to get his supporters to protest outside parliament isn't he?

    🚨 ELECTION INTERFERENCE ALERT 🚨

    Today's Mail on Sunday claimed President Zelensky said that I was personally infected with Putinism. This is totally untrue and I have instructed Carter Ruck to deal with it.

    Tomorrow’s Daily Mail are so desperate to smear Reform that they have now contacted the Russian Foreign Ministry and goaded them into a supposed quote from someone in Sergey Lavrov’s office calling me an ‘ally’.

    That a UK newspaper group is actively collaborating with the Kremlin to protect their dying Conservative party is an absolute scandal. The British people will see through this act of utter desperation.


    https://x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1804921708073144741

    Heathener said:

    Rate The Good Looks of Sir Keir Starmer is a pound shop Guess the Weight of Boris Johnson.

    I mean, what sort of dark place has PB gone into?

    Keir Starmer is lovely when he smiles. Definitely hot. Too severe when he doesn’t.

    The piccie from the Taylor Swift concert with Victoria was brilliant on every level. Better even than John Major at B&Q.



    He looks like Mark Kermode
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    So what's rarer:

    A cyclist in a cycle lane.

    Someone playing basketball in a park basketball court.

    You writing a post that isn’t misanthropic?
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    maxh said:

    though that requires you to listen to a podcast, sorry

    not gonna do that
  • MisterBedfordshireMisterBedfordshire Posts: 2,252
    edited June 23
    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000....

    Because that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided.
    So even more people think Fuck it, pack it in and do 16 hours a week at Tesco on minimum wage, pay no tax, and claim more off fewer remaining taxpayers in Universal Credit.
    Fair enough - but once you children hit 16, you discover that living on universal credit without children to bump up what you receive is not a good idea.

    But clearly you don't understand why most EU countries have reduced the threshold over the years and I can't be bothered to explain that most people actually want a half decent standard of living so the go and work at Tesco stage doesn't last that long...
    18 not 16 in most cases. You identify correctly tbe horrible poverty trap that Tax Credits now UC offers for tbose with children.

    As much as a full time job for working 16 hours a week. But then it ends overnight and your CV is useless.

    Especially as with millions hapily on 16-24 hours a week with little if any employers NI, McTesco dont offer much that isn't 16-24 hours a week at near minimum wage, so few full time McJobs anyway.

    Few think years ahead though. This is of course why long term sick UC claims have rocketed in recent years as peoples kids turn 18.

    You have to make work pay, that means less tax and less complex paperwork and regulation at the lower end.

    Big corporations hate that though as it undercuts them.

    Farage gets it though. As do his "white van man" supporters.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    maxh said:

    On topic if you're going to talk about "neo-liberalism" can you define it first because people mean wildly different things by it.

    Fair challenge, I was trying not to write an essay. I did link to the definition I am using (though that requires you to listen to a podcast, sorry, and it's from Monbiot who I know triggers some people: https://neweconomics.org/2024/06/how-do-we-tell-a-new-story-about-neoliberalism)
    If nobody knows what you mean by the word and you'd need an entire essay or worse a George Monbiot podcast to say what you mean by the word, use a different word.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,341
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
    I don't know - now (well October) would be the absolute perfect time to announce it from April 2026 alongside say a token reduction in VAT rates then...

    By the time the next election came around everyone would be used to it...

    Remember the ideal time to implement something is in the first 18 months of a Parliament. By the time the next election has come round (say after 48 months) everyone will be used to the changes...

    Lowering the VAT threshold with decent reasons would be forgotten by the next election. The bigger issue is things like council tax where revaluations have a massive lead time so the date of implementation would be just before the election was called...
    You really can't stop thinking of new and wonderful ways to fuck that golden egg laying goose can you?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614
    vino said:

    maxh said:

    vino said:

    maxh said:

    vino said:

    Thanks Vino! Hmmm...I think after Brexit, 'referendum' is probably too dirty a word. And I confess I don't know enough about the Swiss system. In general I wonder if we need to get away from the tyranny of the majority where we can. The Swiss may do this.

    Referendum is only a dirty word to 48% of the voting population so what you are saying is that people just have to accept laws that the majority are against - seems an incentive to vote right wing

    Not what I meant, I expressed myself poorly I think.

    I think there is an issue with making complex policy decisions a binary choice. I don't know if that's what the Swiss system does. I do think it's what the Brexit referendum did. I think many of the 52% would acknowledge that we haven't reached the outcome they hoped for.

    And I want right wing, left wing etc to have a voice even if they are not the majority. I think citizens assemblies achieve this.
    Swiss Referendum System - To challenge a law, citizens must collect 50,000 signatures within 100 days of the official publication of a new law. If they manage to do it, a nationwide referendum is held. And if the majority of the voters reject the law, it is cancelled. What's wrong with this system? sounds like perfect government.
    Thanks (genuinely) for doing my Googling for me. That does sound sensible to me.
    Agree - everyone is part of the system so will accept referendum results that they don't like.Thanks again for a real good thread
    Not sure Britain is so good at the 'everyone will accept referendum results that they don't like' bit.

    PS Thanks Max for the excellent header - I wholeheartedly agree.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited June 23

    I see we're now at the "we don't understand what's happening in the country so let's try and tie everything to Putin" phase of the campaign.

    https://x.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1804975043547746546

    Matt Goodwin is a Russian mouthpiece and an utter tool.

    He is an utter helmet. Why do otherwise sensible people follow him around?
    They probably began when he was just starting out and had some somewhat interesting things to say, but now he just parrots ever more extreme and utterly bog standard talking points to lavish in praise of fans, and vicariously enjoy the hate tweets of those who dislike him.

    Which makes him just a pundit, and pundits, even the best of them, just pump out article after article, tweet after tweet, of the same old shower.

    Not like glorious PB commentators of course.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556
    Was the last time that Scotland won a match at a football tournament against Switzerland in 1996 ?

    If so then perhaps a 'one lion' version of "thirty years of hurt never stopped me dreaming" could be arranged for them for world cup 2026.

    Skinner and Baddiel will not be available - they'll be singing about England's sixty years of hurt.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,635

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    Mrs Flatlander doesn't make a lot as she only tends to pick jobs she's interested in.

    She used to be VAT registered and took up the offer to do it as a flat rate.

    George Osborne then accused sole traders of using the flat rate scheme "aggressively", whatever that means, so she gave up and de-registered. It wasn't worth the paperwork.

    A threshold of £30k would definitely be treated as something to be avoided, "digital tax" or otherwise. Why bother?
  • onepureradgeonepureradge Posts: 45
    Foxy said:

    That was a penalty, clear as day.

    I reckon not, Armstrong pulled him onto him.
    Trust me, Armstrong is not that skilled.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 790
    Pro_Rata said:

    OnboardG1 said:

    My last comment before I go indulge in some traditional alcoholism:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCtPBFHKSNg

    Non-traditional alcoholism is far more fun. It's how I ended up with the aformentioned backs of July-September at 15 and 30 for a start...
    You were out drinking with a Tory aide?
    No. I was pissed and thought that those were ridiculous odds for the 3rd quarter of the year.

    Then I went and pointed out what I'd done in a WhatsApp group of political betters and they in response pointed out the summer recess and so on.

    But there was nothing I could do at that point so I let it ride and forgot about it.

    Accidentally drunkenly correct is the best kind of bet.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,614
    edited June 23

    eek said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
    I don't know - now (well October) would be the absolute perfect time to announce it from April 2026 alongside say a token reduction in VAT rates then...

    By the time the next election came around everyone would be used to it...

    Remember the ideal time to implement something is in the first 18 months of a Parliament. By the time the next election has come round (say after 48 months) everyone will be used to the changes...

    Lowering the VAT threshold with decent reasons would be forgotten by the next election. The bigger issue is things like council tax where revaluations have a massive lead time so the date of implementation would be just before the election was called...
    You really can't stop thinking of new and wonderful ways to fuck that golden egg laying goose can you?
    How do Norway, Denmark and Sweden all manage to survive having fucked their golden egg laying geese with VAT thresholds less than €10k?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,991
    edited June 23
    Leon said:

    JK Rowling needed an editor. The last two or three books are silly.

    And the movies she's written are utter trash.

    She hasn’t written any movies
    I disagree with JKR's stance on trans and I can't speak knowledegably on her written fiction, (having never read them) although her sales figures speak for themselves. But oddly I may be able to cast light on her screenwriting and filmrunning abilities post-Potter, as it's cropped up in the past.

    As a broad rule of thumb, she has two problems as a screenwriter
    • She casts oddly/capriciously. She insisted on casting Johnny Depp in FB despite his star fading due to age/domestic issues, as IIUC she had a crush on him when she was younger. Katherine Waterston was defocussed due to her views on trans. God alone knows how Ezra Miller got in or stayed in.
    • She writes exposition, not scenes. She has a tendency to impart info by dialogue, with characters sat around talking to each other. It works on the page, not on film.
    People familiar with the evolution of - say - Star Trek will be familiar with this problem, with a much-loved creator sticking with an old formula and needing to shunted off to the side to let the thing breathe. If in twenty years one of her grown children executive produces "HP XIV: The Return of Voldemort" and saying that it must be true to the spirit of JKR, you'll see the parallel.

    Here's some YouTubes
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,708
    Also what is "a system of stakeholder capitalism* backed by a second chamber of citizens assemblies to replace the House of Lords" and how does it stop parents letting their kids use a mobile phone
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920

    eek said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
    I don't know - now (well October) would be the absolute perfect time to announce it from April 2026 alongside say a token reduction in VAT rates then...

    By the time the next election came around everyone would be used to it...

    Remember the ideal time to implement something is in the first 18 months of a Parliament. By the time the next election has come round (say after 48 months) everyone will be used to the changes...

    Lowering the VAT threshold with decent reasons would be forgotten by the next election. The bigger issue is things like council tax where revaluations have a massive lead time so the date of implementation would be just before the election was called...
    You really can't stop thinking of new and wonderful ways to fuck that golden egg laying goose can you?
    The VAT registration threshold is a big and known problem though. The only solution is either to increase it massively, so most small-mid sized businesses are outside (but at a significant cost to the exchequer) or lower it substantially. We’ve painted ourselves into a corner with the current threshold.

    Actually the most likely policy response because it’s the least politically risky will be freezing the threshold until inflation catches up: fiscal drag.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    edited June 23

    FPT

    When parliament reconvenes he's going to get his supporters to protest outside parliament isn't he?

    🚨 ELECTION INTERFERENCE ALERT 🚨

    Today's Mail on Sunday claimed President Zelensky said that I was personally infected with Putinism. This is totally untrue and I have instructed Carter Ruck to deal with it.

    Tomorrow’s Daily Mail are so desperate to smear Reform that they have now contacted the Russian Foreign Ministry and goaded them into a supposed quote from someone in Sergey Lavrov’s office calling me an ‘ally’.

    That a UK newspaper group is actively collaborating with the Kremlin to protect their dying Conservative party is an absolute scandal. The British people will see through this act of utter desperation.


    https://x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1804921708073144741

    Two thoughts really.

    One, if Farage is angry he is being painted as parroting Putin talking points perhaps he should stop doing it.

    Two, isn't hiring Carter Ruck essentially an admission the thing you've been accused of is true, but you hope they will be able to intimidate people into withdrawing?

    I mean, that's the main thing they are known for.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920
    kle4 said:

    FPT

    When parliament reconvenes he's going to get his supporters to protest outside parliament isn't he?

    🚨 ELECTION INTERFERENCE ALERT 🚨

    Today's Mail on Sunday claimed President Zelensky said that I was personally infected with Putinism. This is totally untrue and I have instructed Carter Ruck to deal with it.

    Tomorrow’s Daily Mail are so desperate to smear Reform that they have now contacted the Russian Foreign Ministry and goaded them into a supposed quote from someone in Sergey Lavrov’s office calling me an ‘ally’.

    That a UK newspaper group is actively collaborating with the Kremlin to protect their dying Conservative party is an absolute scandal. The British people will see through this act of utter desperation.


    https://x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1804921708073144741

    Two thoughts really.

    One, if Farage is angry he is being painted as parroting Putin talking points perhaps he should stop doing it.

    Two, isn't hiring Carter Ruck essentially an admission the thing you've been accused of is true, but you hope they will be able to intimidate people into withdrawing?
    Yes, Carter Ruck presumably still make good money but their brand hasn’t had a good 12 months.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000....

    Because that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided.
    So even more people think Fuck it, pack it in and do 16 hours a week at Tesco on minimum wage, pay no tax, and claim more off fewer remaining taxpayers in Universal Credit.
    Fair enough - but once you children hit 16, you discover that living on universal credit without children to bump up what you receive is not a good idea.

    But clearly you don't understand why most EU countries have reduced the threshold over the years and I can't be bothered to explain that most people actually want a half decent standard of living so the go and work at Tesco stage doesn't last that long...
    18 not 16 in most cases. You identify correctly tbe horrible poverty trap that Tax Credits now UC offers for tbose with children.

    As much as a full time job for working 16 hours a week. But then it ends overnight and your CV is useless.

    Especially as with millions hapily on 16-24 hours a week with little if any employers NI, McTesco dont offer much that isn't 16-24 hours a week at near minimum wage, so few full time McJobs anyway.

    Few think years ahead though. This is of course why long term sick UC claims have rocketed in recent years as peoples kids turn 18.

    You have to make work pay, that means less tax and less complex paperwork and regulation at the lower end.

    Big corporations hate that though as it undercuts them.

    Farage gets it though. As do his "white van man" supporters.
    Farage only gets it because he hasn't got a budget to balance - if he had he wouldn't be making economically insane policies up.

    Basically the only argument I can see here is - the VAT threshold should match the point at which you register for self employment because anything else is going to create issues. Which is not what you want but is the logical conclusion to your argument...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,471
    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Are you arguing that bright people from working-class communities should stay there even if they want to go elsewhere?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    edited June 23

    eek said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
    I don't know - now (well October) would be the absolute perfect time to announce it from April 2026 alongside say a token reduction in VAT rates then...

    By the time the next election came around everyone would be used to it...

    Remember the ideal time to implement something is in the first 18 months of a Parliament. By the time the next election has come round (say after 48 months) everyone will be used to the changes...

    Lowering the VAT threshold with decent reasons would be forgotten by the next election. The bigger issue is things like council tax where revaluations have a massive lead time so the date of implementation would be just before the election was called...
    You really can't stop thinking of new and wonderful ways to fuck that golden egg laying goose can you?
    What golden egg laying goose - our economy is f***ed... Many parts of England (let alone Wales) are poorer than 90% of EU regions....
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,920
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263
    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT

    When parliament reconvenes he's going to get his supporters to protest outside parliament isn't he?

    🚨 ELECTION INTERFERENCE ALERT 🚨

    Today's Mail on Sunday claimed President Zelensky said that I was personally infected with Putinism. This is totally untrue and I have instructed Carter Ruck to deal with it.

    Tomorrow’s Daily Mail are so desperate to smear Reform that they have now contacted the Russian Foreign Ministry and goaded them into a supposed quote from someone in Sergey Lavrov’s office calling me an ‘ally’.

    That a UK newspaper group is actively collaborating with the Kremlin to protect their dying Conservative party is an absolute scandal. The British people will see through this act of utter desperation.


    https://x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1804921708073144741

    Two thoughts really.

    One, if Farage is angry he is being painted as parroting Putin talking points perhaps he should stop doing it.

    Two, isn't hiring Carter Ruck essentially an admission the thing you've been accused of is true, but you hope they will be able to intimidate people into withdrawing?
    Yes, Carter Ruck presumably still make good money but their brand hasn’t had a good 12 months.
    Carter Ruck's brand hasn't been good for 30 odd years - it's the byline for a dodgy libel claim...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 21,991
    maxh said:

    On topic if you're going to talk about "neo-liberalism" can you define it first because people mean wildly different things by it.

    Fair challenge, I was trying not to write an essay. I did link to the definition I am using (though that requires you to listen to a podcast, sorry, and it's from Monbiot who I know triggers some people: https://neweconomics.org/2024/06/how-do-we-tell-a-new-story-about-neoliberalism)
    @maxh, hi! Good article. Have you looked at technofeudalism/neofeudalism?
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,538
    edited June 23
    TimS said:
    More like the Batteryshoe theory with Horse still banned
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,994
    TimS said:
    Anti-americanism is a stronger force than the left-right political spectrum. It's easier to be consistent about for a start.

    'For peace and socialism' my arse.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,813
    eek said:

    TimS said:

    kle4 said:

    FPT

    When parliament reconvenes he's going to get his supporters to protest outside parliament isn't he?

    🚨 ELECTION INTERFERENCE ALERT 🚨

    Today's Mail on Sunday claimed President Zelensky said that I was personally infected with Putinism. This is totally untrue and I have instructed Carter Ruck to deal with it.

    Tomorrow’s Daily Mail are so desperate to smear Reform that they have now contacted the Russian Foreign Ministry and goaded them into a supposed quote from someone in Sergey Lavrov’s office calling me an ‘ally’.

    That a UK newspaper group is actively collaborating with the Kremlin to protect their dying Conservative party is an absolute scandal. The British people will see through this act of utter desperation.


    https://x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1804921708073144741

    Two thoughts really.

    One, if Farage is angry he is being painted as parroting Putin talking points perhaps he should stop doing it.

    Two, isn't hiring Carter Ruck essentially an admission the thing you've been accused of is true, but you hope they will be able to intimidate people into withdrawing?
    Yes, Carter Ruck presumably still make good money but their brand hasn’t had a good 12 months.
    Carter Ruck's brand hasn't been good for 30 odd years - it's the byline for a dodgy libel claim...
    Careful you might end up with Carter Ruck coming for you ;-)
  • TimS said:

    eek said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
    I don't know - now (well October) would be the absolute perfect time to announce it from April 2026 alongside say a token reduction in VAT rates then...

    By the time the next election came around everyone would be used to it...

    Remember the ideal time to implement something is in the first 18 months of a Parliament. By the time the next election has come round (say after 48 months) everyone will be used to the changes...

    Lowering the VAT threshold with decent reasons would be forgotten by the next election. The bigger issue is things like council tax where revaluations have a massive lead time so the date of implementation would be just before the election was called...
    You really can't stop thinking of new and wonderful ways to fuck that golden egg laying goose can you?
    The VAT registration threshold is a big and known problem though. The only solution is either to increase it massively, so most small-mid sized businesses are outside (but at a significant cost to the exchequer) or lower it substantially. We’ve painted ourselves into a corner with the current threshold.

    Actually the most likely policy response because it’s the least politically risky will be freezing the threshold until inflation catches up: fiscal drag.
    But then people, likea relation, doing some part time tutoring while at university, simply won't bother as it isn't worth the hassle/risk of being a collection agency for the treasury.

    And with 20% stuck on hourly rate, less parents will hire anyway.

    So less tax take (noting the combined tutoring (self empl) /summer holiday job means that she has to file a tax return and will pay some tax and NI this year. Which wouldn't be the case if she plugholed the tutoring.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,635
    edited June 23
    Andy_JS said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Are you arguing that bright people from working-class communities should stay there even if they want to go elsewhere?
    The obvious argument is that they should have more opportunities to stay.

    Taz has this bang on. I have to walk less than half a mile to see the problems that both parties have failed to address.

    Boris had the right vibes on "levelling up" but the wrong governance.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,263

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    TimS said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000 as the whole point is that everyone collects VAT so there is zero incentive to turn the work down...

    Remember that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided. For reference these are the EU thresholds at which point you start collecting..

    Austria (AT) EUR 35,000
    Belgium (BE) EUR 25,000
    Czech Republic (CZ) EUR 37,800 (CZK 2,000,000)
    Denmark (DK) EUR 6,708 (DKK 50,000)
    Estonia (EE) EUR 40,000
    Finland (FI) EUR 15,000
    France (FR) EUR 34,400
    Germany (DE) EUR 22,000
    Greece (GR) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Hungary (HU) EUR 34,164 (HUF 12,000,000)
    Ireland (IE) EUR 37,500
    Italy (IT) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Latvia (LV) EUR 40,000
    Lithuania (LT) EUR 45,000
    Luxembourg (LU) EUR 35,000
    Netherlands (NL) EUR 25,000
    Norway (NO) EUR 4,500 (NOK 50,000)
    Poland (PL) EUR 43,800 (PLN 200,000)
    Portugal (PT) EUR 25,000 (one-time taxable events)
    Slovak Republic (SK) EUR 49,790
    Slovenia (SI) EUR 50,000
    Spain (ES) None (EUR 10,000 for distance sales)
    Sweden (SE) EUR 7,500 (SEK 80,000)
    Switzerland (CH) EUR 97,000 (CHF 100,000)
    United Kingdom (GB) EUR 104,795 (GBP 90,000)
    The cliff edge at £90k definitely distorts the market. Bring it down the to ICT personal allowance.
    Sadly no government will dare do it because of all the negative coverage it would generate.
    I don't know - now (well October) would be the absolute perfect time to announce it from April 2026 alongside say a token reduction in VAT rates then...

    By the time the next election came around everyone would be used to it...

    Remember the ideal time to implement something is in the first 18 months of a Parliament. By the time the next election has come round (say after 48 months) everyone will be used to the changes...

    Lowering the VAT threshold with decent reasons would be forgotten by the next election. The bigger issue is things like council tax where revaluations have a massive lead time so the date of implementation would be just before the election was called...
    You really can't stop thinking of new and wonderful ways to fuck that golden egg laying goose can you?
    The VAT registration threshold is a big and known problem though. The only solution is either to increase it massively, so most small-mid sized businesses are outside (but at a significant cost to the exchequer) or lower it substantially. We’ve painted ourselves into a corner with the current threshold.

    Actually the most likely policy response because it’s the least politically risky will be freezing the threshold until inflation catches up: fiscal drag.
    But then people, likea relation, doing some part time tutoring while at university, simply won't bother as it isn't worth the hassle/risk of being a collection agency for the treasury.

    And with 20% stuck on hourly rate, less parents will hire anyway.

    So less tax take (noting the combined tutoring (self empl) /summer holiday job means that she has to file a tax return and will pay some tax and NI this year. Which wouldn't be the case if she plugholed the tutoring.
    If she is earning over £1000 she should be registered with HMRC....
  • eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    stodge said:

    Omnium said:

    Taz said:

    Talking of scapegoating, what about the scapegoating of working class communities for whom none of this has worked and for whom labour just took for granted as they always voted for them and the Tories did sod all to level up. Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are. Communities that, under both parties, saw the good paying jobs in industry exported and replace with call centres and distribution hubs. The posho contingency here has not got a clue how many people just exist in this country.

    You see some of the wailing about Brexit, like Eric idle today whining because he cannot go to France for more than 90 days, something that really affects precious few people to see the level of detachment.

    I did not vote Brexit and would not vote reform but I absolutely get why people did/do and the failure of mainstream politicians to engage with these communities but just tell them what they should think has been telling.

    Any argument is a little undermined by this "Communities that lose their brightest and best to London and the South where the jobs and opportunities are."
    This is where the paradox with Reform is at its most stark - Farage is an unreconstructed Thatcherite. He wants tax cuts, a la Truss, for the wealthy and is signed up to all this supply-side Lafferite nonsense. He also wants spending cuts though he rarely says it out loud wittering on about "woke" and "diversity".

    Reform members and voters, on the other hand, are in a very different place. They signed up to the Conservative Levelling Up aganda which promised more money and resources for the north and midlands. Sunak and the Conservatives betrayed this in a nanosecond with the scrapping of HS2 north of Birmingham - a huge middle finger to the north.

    Reform members and voters want the money and resources spent on the WWC in the north, not "wasted" as they would see it on the metropolitan liberal south. What won the north and midlands (the "Red Wall") wasn't Brexit - it was the sale of council houses. The sons and daughters of the original council house buyers inheriting property, becoming home owners and becoming Conservatives.

    Labour neglected the north and didn't see or understand the impact of this huge change from rental to ownership - the Conservatives betrayed the north via the failure of HS2 and Levelling Up and the home owners are now left with big mortgages.

    Reform's paradox will render it completely unable to meet the promises of their members and voters. The best hope for Reform oddly enough is to ditch Farage completely.
    I don't see the contradiction that you do. The North didn’t grow rich on Southern taxes building it tramways and municipal sculptures; it grew rich because people had factories and business and they grew. Infrastructure followed, again built privately. That's what Reform want to do - get the state off peoples' backs, so that once again, running an actual business is doable in this country. That's actual 'levelling up'.
    I confess I've not read the Reform manifesto in detail but that doesn't sound like the Reform minded voter. They simply want what they should consider a fair slice of the national cake spent in the poorer areas. That was a key aspect of Levelling Up - the re-direction of resources as well a the prioritisation on infrastructure.

    It's not just about running a business and to be controversial, given how many businesses fail, perhaps it should be more about helping people run businesses by showing them how to run businesses.
    It has nothing to do with being shown how to run a business. Energy in this country is double what it is in the US. Taxes are through the roof. The Government hikes the minimum wage every time it wants a free popularity boost. Net Zero is busy nailing the coffin shut. How can we compete on those terms?

    There isn't the environment to do business in this country. I made a blue sky suggestion at work that we should build a garment factory in the UK and was laughed out of the room.

    I think you'll find the voters Reform is targeting understand this completely and are a lot more streetwise than you are giving them credit for.
    I'm sure that "insight" is found in supporters of all parties and none - it's not exclusive to Reform who can express the anger but seem to have no more answer than anyone else.

    I seem, Budget after Budget, to have heard Chancellor after Chancellor claiming they are helping business (especially SMEs) and yet it's never enough. Banks used to fight for local SME accounts - perhaps they don't any longer.

    I appreciate it's impossible to square the circle between demands on the public finances (and that includes the armed forces as much as it does the NHS) and the ability of the economy to generate the growth needed to sustain that demand.
    But the point is that they shouldn't NEED support. And they only need subsidies and grants and loans and exemptions because of the costs that are being imposed by Government in the first place - particular green levies. So we have a tax-subsidy-go-round where the Government picks the winners. It is deeply unhealthy and it is killing our economy.

    As for Reform's answer, it has found two major sources of untapped revenue, and it plans to deploy them to raise the VAT threshhold to £250,000 and the personal allowance to £20,000. Those are exciting policies that alone, would be game on for the economy. They are the sort of thing that would be in a Tory manifesto were the Tories not centrist no-hopers.

    Increasing the VAT threshold to £250,000 is utterly insane.

    With tax going digital in April 2026 reducing the VAT threshold to £30,000 or makes sense because all the paperwork needs to be done anyway.

    The only question then is can you reduce the rate to 18% or do you keep it at 20%.

    Are you mad?

    Do you wan't even more people to pack up or reduce work and live on Universal Credit at Taxpayers expense?

    Because that is exactly what cutting the VAT threshold will do. Many sole traders already turn down work to keep their turnover below the VAT threshold.
    In which case we set the threshold at £10,000....

    Because that is how the rest of the world operates VAT, very low thresholds in a way that can't be avoided.
    So even more people think Fuck it, pack it in and do 16 hours a week at Tesco on minimum wage, pay no tax, and claim more off fewer remaining taxpayers in Universal Credit.
    Fair enough - but once you children hit 16, you discover that living on universal credit without children to bump up what you receive is not a good idea.

    But clearly you don't understand why most EU countries have reduced the threshold over the years and I can't be bothered to explain that most people actually want a half decent standard of living so the go and work at Tesco stage doesn't last that long...
    18 not 16 in most cases. You identify correctly tbe horrible poverty trap that Tax Credits now UC offers for tbose with children.

    As much as a full time job for working 16 hours a week. But then it ends overnight and your CV is useless.

    Especially as with millions hapily on 16-24 hours a week with little if any employers NI, McTesco dont offer much that isn't 16-24 hours a week at near minimum wage, so few full time McJobs anyway.

    Few think years ahead though. This is of course why long term sick UC claims have rocketed in recent years as peoples kids turn 18.

    You have to make work pay, that means less tax and less complex paperwork and regulation at the lower end.

    Big corporations hate that though as it undercuts them.

    Farage gets it though. As do his "white van man" supporters.
    Farage only gets it because he hasn't got a budget to balance - if he had he wouldn't be making economically insane policies up.

    Basically the only argument I can see here is - the VAT threshold should match the point at which you register for self employment because anything else is going to create issues. Which is not what you want but is the logical conclusion to your argument...
    That is £1,000 turnover. £80 a month.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,556

    So what's rarer:

    A cyclist in a cycle lane.

    Someone playing basketball in a park basketball court.

    You writing a post that isn’t misanthropic?
    Its the waste of resources which is misanthropic.
This discussion has been closed.