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Why we will be discussing AV and electoral reform a lot more – politicalbetting.com

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  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Are they a member of the British Polling Council?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,747

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    Oh dear, Johnny Mercer is fucked.

    Fred Thomas’ Certificate of Valediction - signed by the Commanding Officer, Special Forces Support Group



    https://x.com/johnestevens/status/1804162095123980459

    Wasn't Mercer complaining about claims he was a combatant? He could have had a glorious seven years behind a desk.
    No, senior special forces bods have vouched for Thomas’ service and it wasn’t behind a desk.
    You have to wonder why Mercer is repeating this claim then. Pretty low.
    Firstly he is desperate and secondly he knows that Thomas cannot come out and say, “actually I did this, this and this” etc which is why it’s pretty despicable of Mercer to call him a Walter Mitty as he knows what the rules are.
    Mercer will potentially be in a spot of bother should he win narrowly in July. Many here will recall Phil Woolas being unseated by an election petition in 2010, due to making false statements about a candidate's character and conduct contrary to section 106 of the Representation of the People Act, and the result being close enough conceivably to have been decisive.

    Quite apart from any defamation issues, he's potentially given himself quite a big problem.
    Has Mercer explained how he is in a position to know whether what Thomas says about his service is true or not?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,013

    Low IQ Leon was pushing this bullshit a few weeks ago.

    Tripe man is back
    You are very brave.
    Is that a threat? Or more tripe?
    Don't abuse the Mods, Horse - they keep this site going.
    At least he is consistent
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837

    If the Conservatives have retargeted their campaigning efforts into seats with majorities of over 20,000 in 2019 to ensure that they come 2nd in the number of seats won, what evidence is there of a shift in the other parties changing their priorities?

    The Greens appear to be focusing on North Herefordshire and Waveney Valley, but what about Labour and the Lib Dems?

    At a guess, Labour won't be changing its strategy to pursue ultra-safe Tory seats. Picking up a few more if they're already heading for an immense majority won't be as important to them as keeping the effort going in places that may be vulnerable to a measure of swingback - even if that now feels unlikely.

    The Liberal Democrats will have finite resources so couldn't go on the offensive in 200 seats even if they wanted to.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    Farooq said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Annaisaac
    New: The Guardian has seen internal Labour documents, confirmed by senior sources, which scope radical changes to capital gains and inheritance tax:

    💸The proposals include increases in capital gains tax (CGT), first revealed by the Guardian two weeks ago, that could raise £8bn.

    💰 Also in drafts are BIG potential changes to inheritance tax that could generate £2.3bn a year.

    💳⌛️New measures would make it much more difficult to “gift” money and assets, such as farmland, tax free. It effectively scraps much of the relief used for passing on agricultural and business assets.

    This all sounds positive, and as we were saying the other day they are things that need a long-term service / overhaul.

    It would have been nice if it had not come out now, though.
    Good evening

    I actually support those measures so why isn't Reeves just honest and announce them
    Agreed. People should just say what it is they're going to vote for. We all know, and they aren't fooling anyone...
    Well if we all know, what's the problem?
  • Low IQ Leon was pushing this bullshit a few weeks ago.

    Tripe man is back
    You are very brave.
    Is that a threat? Or more tripe?
    Don't abuse the Mods, Horse - they keep this site going.
    But the moderation team are allowed to call people "low IQ". Okay.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    Late to the game but On topic.

    More than thirty years ago, a 14 year old me was sat in a Design Technology class (no idea what they'd be called now) and the teacher decided to go well off topic.

    He explained patiently how, with the current situation, it might be possible for there to be 100 seats in the country. Each seat could be even, with 100,000 people in it.

    In 51 of them, 51,000 voted Conservative and the remaining 49,000 voted Labour. In the other 49, all 100,000 people voted Labour.

    He set out the numbers and explained how the Conservatives had just won the election, not just with less votes than Labour but barely more than 25% of the vote.

    Sure, it was a lesson about gerrymandering, as well as PR, but I've never forgot that lesson that day by Mr. Grundy.

    I haven't always voted Lib Dem from 1997, but it's a near clean sheet. It's my number 1 priority and any party that promises reform[1] to the voting system has a chance of getting my vote.

    [1] No pun intended - I'm not voting for Nigel's lot.

    And OK, it's not quite as bad as that here, that's pretty much where the US has ended up, with politicians on both sides fiddling the boundaries to screw over the other lot, and Mr Grundy's model as the ideal.

    This side of the pond, it's gentler and more genteel, but there's still a temptation for politicians to choose their electors (OK, suggest a map to the Boundary Commission) rather than the other way round.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,119
    edited June 21
    This is my photo quota for the day - a baffling road design from near where I used to live, not far from here. It is like this for quite some distance.


    The highway corridor wall-to-wall is just over 17m. The carriageway is 13m. The central hatchings are just under 4m wide. The solid hatchings are "entering here is an offence unless emergency". ~12000 vehicles per day. 30mph indicated speed limit.

    The pedestrian refuges are 50m apart, and offset sideways in the carriageway by 1m+, so fundamentally different behaviour required from people driving vehicles.

    I cycle up here once or twice a week and have to take a ridiculously positive primary position to prevent dangerous overtakes, since expectations are so unclear.

    The cycle infrastructure is a shared footway, like virtually all of it in my town.

    The pedestrian refuge on the right is at https://what3words.com/sheep.retain.haven . It is not a haven since those bollards, like nearly all of them, are not designed to protect pedestrians, rather to avoid damage to vehicles that drive into them.

    What would you change?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,013

    Andy_JS said:

    Candace Owens is a strange person because I've heard her say sensible things on some topics, and then she supports conspiracy theories at other times.

    She is a nutjob. Andy you're posting and talking about a lot of nutters lately, get help
    I really find your posts on mental health unnecessary, especially as you of all people should understand the distress mental health causes
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    MattW said:

    This is my photo quota for the day - a baffling road design from near where I used to live, not far from here. It is like this for quite some distance.


    The highway corridor wall-to-wall is just over 17m. The carriageway is 13m. The central hatchings are just under 4m wide. The solid hatchings are "entering here is an offence unless emergency".

    The pedestrian refuges are 50m apart, and offset sideways in the carriageway by 1m+, so fundamentally different behaviour required from people driving vehicles.

    I cycle up here once or twice a week and have to take a ridiculously positive primary position to prevent dangerous overtakes, since expectations are so unclear.

    The cycle infrastructure is a shared footway, like virtually all of it in my town.

    The pedestrian refuge on the right is at https://what3words.com/sheep.retain.haven . It is not a haven since those bollards, like nearly all of them, are not designed to protect pedestrians, rather to avoid damage to vehicles that drive into them.

    What would you change?

    Website?
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494

    FPTP prevents extremism?

    Looks at the US.

    But America doesn't have the Westminster system.

    America's extremism is in large part driven by 3 things we don't have.

    1: A directly elected President outside of Congress, not answerable to their Representatives, our PM is part of the Commons.
    2: A directly elected Upper House that often conflicts with their President and or their Representatives, our Upper House knows its place and the Parliament Act can override it.
    3: An appointed for life SCOTUS that can set laws as it deems appropriate that elected Representatives can not change. Our Supreme Court can issue rulings, but our Commons can then change the law if it wants to.

    Our MPs in the Commons are mightily powerful compared America's Representatives. If the PM or the courts get out of line too far, the Commons can (and do) course correct rather than having decades-long battles to corrupt those institutions because elected representatives have no say in them.

    America's separation of powers is its downfall. It is a mistake.
    it is possible to override the SCOTUS, it just takes changing the constitution.
  • And now I've just ruined my post by going and ordering Ham and Pineapple Pizza from Domino's.

    Ban :)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651

    Low IQ Leon was pushing this bullshit a few weeks ago.

    Tripe man is back
    You are very brave.
    Is that a threat? Or more tripe?
    Don't abuse the Mods, Horse - they keep this site going.
    But the moderation team are allowed to call people "low IQ". Okay.
    He was only telling the truth tbf.
  • Andy_JS said:

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Are they a member of the British Polling Council?
    Yeah I've never heard of them.

    @MarqueeMark you're on the ground, what are you feeling about the Reform surge?

    My parents in East Hants are still predicting it to narrowly stay Tory but people are utterly fed up with them (albeit small sample size).
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,013

    Low IQ Leon was pushing this bullshit a few weeks ago.

    Tripe man is back
    You are very brave.
    Is that a threat? Or more tripe?
    Don't abuse the Mods, Horse - they keep this site going.
    But the moderation team are allowed to call people "low IQ". Okay.
    The moderators are allowed to do as they think fit without your attempts to intervene

    They are the guardians of the site, not you
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big suprise on July 5th!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397

    Late to the game but On topic.

    More than thirty years ago, a 14 year old me was sat in a Design Technology class (no idea what they'd be called now) and the teacher decided to go well off topic.

    He explained patiently how, with the current situation, it might be possible for there to be 100 seats in the country. Each seat could be even, with 100,000 people in it.

    In 51 of them, 51,000 voted Conservative and the remaining 49,000 voted Labour. In the other 49, all 100,000 people voted Labour.

    He set out the numbers and explained how the Conservatives had just won the election, not just with less votes than Labour but barely more than 25% of the vote.

    Sure, it was a lesson about gerrymandering, as well as PR, but I've never forgot that lesson that day by Mr. Grundy.

    I haven't always voted Lib Dem from 1997, but it's a near clean sheet. It's my number 1 priority and any party that promises reform[1] to the voting system has a chance of getting my vote.

    [1] No pun intended - I'm not voting for Nigel's lot.

    They're called Design Technology at our place at least.
    Happy to help. You're welcome.
  • Low IQ Leon was pushing this bullshit a few weeks ago.

    Tripe man is back
    You are very brave.
    Is that a threat? Or more tripe?
    Don't abuse the Mods, Horse - they keep this site going.
    But the moderation team are allowed to call people "low IQ". Okay.
    He was only telling the truth tbf.
    And so was I, the post was tripe and completely unnecessary.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Chris said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    Oh dear, Johnny Mercer is fucked.

    Fred Thomas’ Certificate of Valediction - signed by the Commanding Officer, Special Forces Support Group



    https://x.com/johnestevens/status/1804162095123980459

    Wasn't Mercer complaining about claims he was a combatant? He could have had a glorious seven years behind a desk.
    No, senior special forces bods have vouched for Thomas’ service and it wasn’t behind a desk.
    You have to wonder why Mercer is repeating this claim then. Pretty low.
    Firstly he is desperate and secondly he knows that Thomas cannot come out and say, “actually I did this, this and this” etc which is why it’s pretty despicable of Mercer to call him a Walter Mitty as he knows what the rules are.
    Mercer will potentially be in a spot of bother should he win narrowly in July. Many here will recall Phil Woolas being unseated by an election petition in 2010, due to making false statements about a candidate's character and conduct contrary to section 106 of the Representation of the People Act, and the result being close enough conceivably to have been decisive.

    Quite apart from any defamation issues, he's potentially given himself quite a big problem.
    Has Mercer explained how he is in a position to know whether what Thomas says about his service is true or not?
    It’s funny isn’t it that since Thomas was selected and his military backstory was brought up, including nods to him being SBS in obscure news mongers such as the Guardian, that nobody apart from Mercer has thought to come out and call bullshit.

    That there isn’t one single Marine or Naval officer who would have served with Thomas who is a Tory and would have loved to nobble the Labour candidate especially as lying about service history is a cardinal sin is quite something.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541

    Andy_JS said:

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Are they a member of the British Polling Council?
    Yeah I've never heard of them.

    @MarqueeMark you're on the ground, what are you feeling about the Reform surge?

    My parents in East Hants are still predicting it to narrowly stay Tory but people are utterly fed up with them (albeit small sample size).
    IIRC East Hants was the second safest seat in the country at the 1992 election, behind only John Major's constituency in Huntingdon.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    pigeon said:

    If the Conservatives have retargeted their campaigning efforts into seats with majorities of over 20,000 in 2019 to ensure that they come 2nd in the number of seats won, what evidence is there of a shift in the other parties changing their priorities?

    The Greens appear to be focusing on North Herefordshire and Waveney Valley, but what about Labour and the Lib Dems?

    At a guess, Labour won't be changing its strategy to pursue ultra-safe Tory seats. Picking up a few more if they're already heading for an immense majority won't be as important to them as keeping the effort going in places that may be vulnerable to a measure of swingback - even if that now feels unlikely.

    The Liberal Democrats will have finite resources so couldn't go on the offensive in 200 seats even if they wanted to.
    How many seats do we reckon the LDs are targeting?
  • Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Are they a member of the British Polling Council?
    Yeah I've never heard of them.

    @MarqueeMark you're on the ground, what are you feeling about the Reform surge?

    My parents in East Hants are still predicting it to narrowly stay Tory but people are utterly fed up with them (albeit small sample size).
    IIRC East Hants was the second safest seat in the country at the 1992 election, behind only John Major's constituency in Huntingdon.
    It is bloody safe. But some MRPs have it going Lib Dem. I don't think it will but the Lib Dems will run a close second.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541

    Andy_JS said:

    Candace Owens is a strange person because I've heard her say sensible things on some topics, and then she supports conspiracy theories at other times.

    She is a nutjob. Andy you're posting and talking about a lot of nutters lately, get help
    Just because I post something doesn't mean I agree with it.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,352
    GIN1138 said:

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Another poll with Ref ahead of Con and Lab dropping into the 30s.
    Yes. In the heavily postal voting 65+ demographic, the subsample for this poll gives a split of CON-LAB-RFM 31-23-25.

    If that's accurate then it's a mighty swing away from the Tories already on its way back to the returning officers. According to Ipsos, the 65+ age group voted by 64-17 for the Tories over Labour in 2019. A swing of nearly 20%.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964

    FPTP prevents extremism?

    Looks at the US.

    But America doesn't have the Westminster system.

    America's extremism is in large part driven by 3 things we don't have.

    1: A directly elected President outside of Congress, not answerable to their Representatives, our PM is part of the Commons.
    2: A directly elected Upper House that often conflicts with their President and or their Representatives, our Upper House knows its place and the Parliament Act can override it.
    3: An appointed for life SCOTUS that can set laws as it deems appropriate that elected Representatives can not change. Our Supreme Court can issue rulings, but our Commons can then change the law if it wants to.

    Our MPs in the Commons are mightily powerful compared America's Representatives. If the PM or the courts get out of line too far, the Commons can (and do) course correct rather than having decades-long battles to corrupt those institutions because elected representatives have no say in them.

    America's separation of powers is its downfall. It is a mistake.
    America's extremism is driven by the Electoral college which gives smaller states with smaller populations a bigger say than bigger populations
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    spudgfsh said:

    FPTP prevents extremism?

    Looks at the US.

    But America doesn't have the Westminster system.

    America's extremism is in large part driven by 3 things we don't have.

    1: A directly elected President outside of Congress, not answerable to their Representatives, our PM is part of the Commons.
    2: A directly elected Upper House that often conflicts with their President and or their Representatives, our Upper House knows its place and the Parliament Act can override it.
    3: An appointed for life SCOTUS that can set laws as it deems appropriate that elected Representatives can not change. Our Supreme Court can issue rulings, but our Commons can then change the law if it wants to.

    Our MPs in the Commons are mightily powerful compared America's Representatives. If the PM or the courts get out of line too far, the Commons can (and do) course correct rather than having decades-long battles to corrupt those institutions because elected representatives have no say in them.

    America's separation of powers is its downfall. It is a mistake.
    it is possible to override the SCOTUS, it just takes changing the constitution.
    Exactly.

    Its an absurd bar.

    Whereas ours takes a General Election. Far more democratic.
  • Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Candace Owens is a strange person because I've heard her say sensible things on some topics, and then she supports conspiracy theories at other times.

    She is a nutjob. Andy you're posting and talking about a lot of nutters lately, get help
    Just because I post something doesn't mean I agree with it.
    Fair point but just be careful to not get sucked in. I've seen my brother recently get sucked into this kind of stuff initially out of interest and now he's started to repeat it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,404
    Andy_JS said:

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Are they a member of the British Polling Council?
    I think your prediction from earlier smells right: Lab 37%, Con 25%, Ref 17%, LD 14%, Grn 5%.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole
    TVA4 - the code sending chills down spines of Tory canvass teams.

    It's what their Vote Source software says are Reform waverers.

    But hearing endless reports that when those doors are knocked they are not just wavering but almost always GONE.

    South is very, very bad for the Tories, troops say.

    Not just Reform either... but Liberals.

    Sources say totemic seats like Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are in "freefall".

    https://x.com/MrHarryCole/status/1804186446447755523

    Both Lib Dems and Reform are immune from the “don’t give Labour a supermajority” nonsense, in fact they might even benefit from it if people reply “fair enough, we won’t. But we’re not voting for you lot”.

    Still think Tories end up above 26% though.
    Based on......? Gut feel, only
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    Nunu5 said:

    FPTP prevents extremism?

    Looks at the US.

    But America doesn't have the Westminster system.

    America's extremism is in large part driven by 3 things we don't have.

    1: A directly elected President outside of Congress, not answerable to their Representatives, our PM is part of the Commons.
    2: A directly elected Upper House that often conflicts with their President and or their Representatives, our Upper House knows its place and the Parliament Act can override it.
    3: An appointed for life SCOTUS that can set laws as it deems appropriate that elected Representatives can not change. Our Supreme Court can issue rulings, but our Commons can then change the law if it wants to.

    Our MPs in the Commons are mightily powerful compared America's Representatives. If the PM or the courts get out of line too far, the Commons can (and do) course correct rather than having decades-long battles to corrupt those institutions because elected representatives have no say in them.

    America's separation of powers is its downfall. It is a mistake.
    America's extremism is driven by the Electoral college which gives smaller states with smaller populations a bigger say than bigger populations
    I'd argue that's a very minor factor compared to those I mentioned.

    Equalise the electoral votes per capita of the states and you'd still have the extremism because of the other things, especially SCOTUS.

    Separation of powers just disenfranchises the electorate.
  • lintolinto Posts: 38

    Cookie said:

    Off thread: wife and daughters are off to see Taylor Swift in London tomorrow so have 48 hours free of parental responsibility and the nicest weekend of the year so far to do it in.
    The amount of choice has been paralytic. But my decision was sort of made when I noticed there is a train from Manchester Victoria at 8.15 which goes to Ribblehead via Clitheroe, and a nice day with a strong westerly wind forecast.
    I'm going to try to cycle from Ribblehead (or Kirkby Stephen) to Northallerton.
    There is so much that can go wrong. First off, you can't book bikes on Northern, but nor can you board if there are two other bikes there before you.
    Still, feel I'm planning to do three new things I've long wanted to in one day: crossing the Pennines by bike*, going out for a day by bike and train, and going on the Settle and Carlisle railway. Oh, and also going on the secret Clitheroe-Hellifield route.
    I am so far out of my comfort zone it is quite dizzying.

    Amazing. I've done most of those roads - it's glorious all the way to Leyburn and pleasant enough after that.

    This is almost certainly the nicest route, though if you're tired after Bedale you may want to save a few miles and blat it down the main road to Northallerton: https://cycle.travel/map?from=&to=&fromLL=54.205791,-2.360666&toLL=54.340469,-1.434655&via=ortqfBzqdqB
    In my experience on Northern (over here in Cumbria) they are pretty relaxed about the number of bikes but more concerned with the space they take up. We've managed to fit 6 bikes in the designated space for 2 and they were happy enough.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole
    TVA4 - the code sending chills down spines of Tory canvass teams.

    It's what their Vote Source software says are Reform waverers.

    But hearing endless reports that when those doors are knocked they are not just wavering but almost always GONE.

    South is very, very bad for the Tories, troops say.

    Not just Reform either... but Liberals.

    Sources say totemic seats like Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are in "freefall".

    https://x.com/MrHarryCole/status/1804186446447755523

    These sorts of reports from the troops are often very apt especially when they are negative
  • Andy_JS said:

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Are they a member of the British Polling Council?
    I think your prediction from earlier smells right: Lab 37%, Con 25%, Ref 17%, LD 14%, Grn 5%.
    I am thinking Labour 39%, Lib Dems 16%, Reform 15%.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,119

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Annaisaac
    New: The Guardian has seen internal Labour documents, confirmed by senior sources, which scope radical changes to capital gains and inheritance tax:

    💸The proposals include increases in capital gains tax (CGT), first revealed by the Guardian two weeks ago, that could raise £8bn.

    💰 Also in drafts are BIG potential changes to inheritance tax that could generate £2.3bn a year.

    💳⌛️New measures would make it much more difficult to “gift” money and assets, such as farmland, tax free. It effectively scraps much of the relief used for passing on agricultural and business assets.

    This all sounds positive, and as we were saying the other day they are things that need a long-term service / overhaul.

    It would have been nice if it had not come out now, though.
    Good evening

    I actually support those measures so why isn't Reeves just honest and announce them
    I think it's political strategy, perhaps, and election narratives being so ingrained about tax cuts and individual interest?

    As it is, she can do an arrival in Government, followed by silence until September, then "We have lifted the lid on the can of worms, and OMIGOD it is horrible, therefore we have to consider ...." .
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,404

    And now I've just ruined my post by going and ordering Ham and Pineapple Pizza from Domino's.

    I'd rather eat dirt from a feral street in Mogadishu, to be honest.

    But, I hope you enjoy it.
  • spudgfshspudgfsh Posts: 1,494
    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big surprise on July 5th!

    I'd be surprised if they didn't end up with a lot of 2nd and 3rd places with between 15 and 25% of the vote. they are too far behind to make serious inroads in terms of seats this time around.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,352
    Andy_JS said:

    A new poll from Whitestone Insight has been added to wiki (19-20 June; changes on 12-13)
    CON 19 (-)
    LAB 39 (-2)
    LDM 12 (+1)
    GRN 6 (-)
    RFM 20 (+3)

    Are they a member of the British Polling Council?
    Yes. They have been founded by Andrew Hawkins, who previously was in charge of ComRes, before they were bought by Savanta.
  • And now I've just ruined my post by going and ordering Ham and Pineapple Pizza from Domino's.

    I'd rather eat dirt from a feral street in Mogadishu, to be honest.

    But, I hope you enjoy it.
    Dominoes is just awful. Yuck.

    Now, Pizza Express, Pizza Hut, yum! But hold the pineapple.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    England a long way adrift here.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576

    And now I've just ruined my post by going and ordering Ham and Pineapple Pizza from Domino's.

    Did it land upside-down after the delivery guy put it through the letterbox?
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    And now I've just ruined my post by going and ordering Ham and Pineapple Pizza from Domino's.

    I'd rather eat dirt from a feral street in Mogadishu, to be honest.

    But, I hope you enjoy it.
    KFC’s secret spice and herb mix says “Hi”.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Annaisaac
    New: The Guardian has seen internal Labour documents, confirmed by senior sources, which scope radical changes to capital gains and inheritance tax:

    💸The proposals include increases in capital gains tax (CGT), first revealed by the Guardian two weeks ago, that could raise £8bn.

    💰 Also in drafts are BIG potential changes to inheritance tax that could generate £2.3bn a year.

    💳⌛️New measures would make it much more difficult to “gift” money and assets, such as farmland, tax free. It effectively scraps much of the relief used for passing on agricultural and business assets.

    This all sounds positive, and as we were saying the other day they are things that need a long-term service / overhaul.

    It would have been nice if it had not come out now, though.
    Good evening

    I actually support those measures so why isn't Reeves just honest and announce them
    You might support them, but Labour is terrified of talking about any tax rises outside of the limited package of token measures that they've already announced - simply because the assumption is that solid evidence that Labour's tax take is liable to be much more broad than they're willing to admit will be successfully weaponised by the Conservatives to drive some of their lost supporters back into the fold.

    Inheritance tax, in particular, is loathed by the electorate, and most voters are cakeist: they want lots more money spending on health and other nice things, but the money must on no account come from them because they are special sunflowers (and, indeed, already pay far too much.)

    There's this fiction - that the country won't be obliged to choose between punishing austerity and socking great tax rises, because miraculous economic growth will solve everything - which needs to be maintained between now and polling day. The electorate knows that this is bollocks, but believing really hard in fairies is more appealing than confronting the alternative. It gives everyone a little holiday from reality, before Labour starts doing all the nasty things and the voters then get to moan bitterly about how they were lied to.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,982
    @YouGov
    The election betting scandal cuts through with the public: asked which story they have heard most about recently, it comes first on 17%

    Election betting scandal: 17%
    General election: 15%
    Jay Slater missing: 11%
    Euro 2024: 8%
    Election poll results: 4%

    https://x.com/YouGov/status/1804186800782557606
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,404
    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Annaisaac
    New: The Guardian has seen internal Labour documents, confirmed by senior sources, which scope radical changes to capital gains and inheritance tax:

    💸The proposals include increases in capital gains tax (CGT), first revealed by the Guardian two weeks ago, that could raise £8bn.

    💰 Also in drafts are BIG potential changes to inheritance tax that could generate £2.3bn a year.

    💳⌛️New measures would make it much more difficult to “gift” money and assets, such as farmland, tax free. It effectively scraps much of the relief used for passing on agricultural and business assets.

    This all sounds positive, and as we were saying the other day they are things that need a long-term service / overhaul.

    It would have been nice if it had not come out now, though.
    Why, because it might hinder the deceit Labour are trying to play over their election mandate?

    That said, CCHQ are so shit and in such disarray they'll probably fail to kick the ball anywhere near this massive open goal and just hit themselves in the face again instead.
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,077
    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole
    TVA4 - the code sending chills down spines of Tory canvass teams.

    It's what their Vote Source software says are Reform waverers.

    But hearing endless reports that when those doors are knocked they are not just wavering but almost always GONE.

    South is very, very bad for the Tories, troops say.

    Not just Reform either... but Liberals.

    Sources say totemic seats like Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are in "freefall".

    https://x.com/MrHarryCole/status/1804186446447755523

    IF this is the case, we should see some further pick up in the Lib Dem vote. It is what sems to be out there, but somehow the polls are wavering.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,119
    edited June 21

    MattW said:

    This is my photo quota for the day - a baffling road design from near where I used to live, not far from here. It is like this for quite some distance.


    The highway corridor wall-to-wall is just over 17m. The carriageway is 13m. The central hatchings are just under 4m wide. The solid hatchings are "entering here is an offence unless emergency".

    The pedestrian refuges are 50m apart, and offset sideways in the carriageway by 1m+, so fundamentally different behaviour required from people driving vehicles.

    I cycle up here once or twice a week and have to take a ridiculously positive primary position to prevent dangerous overtakes, since expectations are so unclear.

    The cycle infrastructure is a shared footway, like virtually all of it in my town.

    The pedestrian refuge on the right is at https://what3words.com/sheep.retain.haven . It is not a haven since those bollards, like nearly all of them, are not designed to protect pedestrians, rather to avoid damage to vehicles that drive into them.

    What would you change?

    Website?
    I don't quite get that comment, unless you want a different website (I might be being affected by Friday teatime gin), or are quipping. Here is a Google link:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ashland+Rd+W,+Sutton-in-Ashfield/@53.126978,-1.2879198,101m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4879969f691cd8b7:0xf24eb726f139295a!8m2!3d53.1302336!4d-1.283206!16s/g/1vc6cy5y?entry=ttu

    (You can navigate directly to Streetview from what3words.)

    What3words is going to conquer the world; we have been told.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,811

    Low IQ Leon was pushing this bullshit a few weeks ago.

    Tripe man is back
    You are very brave.
    Is that a threat? Or more tripe?
    Don't abuse the Mods, Horse - they keep this site going.
    But the moderation team are allowed to call people "low IQ". Okay.
    Hang on, are you suggesting Leon is actually a person and not a very early iteration of AI?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Nunu5 said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole
    TVA4 - the code sending chills down spines of Tory canvass teams.

    It's what their Vote Source software says are Reform waverers.

    But hearing endless reports that when those doors are knocked they are not just wavering but almost always GONE.

    South is very, very bad for the Tories, troops say.

    Not just Reform either... but Liberals.

    Sources say totemic seats like Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are in "freefall".

    https://x.com/MrHarryCole/status/1804186446447755523

    Both Lib Dems and Reform are immune from the “don’t give Labour a supermajority” nonsense, in fact they might even benefit from it if people reply “fair enough, we won’t. But we’re not voting for you lot”.

    Still think Tories end up above 26% though.
    Based on......? Gut feel, only
    Based on many elections as a Lib Dem getting excited about us surging during the campaign and then being disappointed when at the end of the day the big two close ranks and burst our bubble.

    Happened to us in 1983, 2010 and 2019 and to an extent also in 2005.

    Happened to UKIP in 2015, and happens to the Greens every time.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Evening all. Reform join the placard wars in Norwich South, spotted my first Reform placard today, so they join the odd Lab and Green seen, no LD or Con yet and just one Lab leaflet
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    edited June 21
    pigeon said:

    MattW said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Annaisaac
    New: The Guardian has seen internal Labour documents, confirmed by senior sources, which scope radical changes to capital gains and inheritance tax:

    💸The proposals include increases in capital gains tax (CGT), first revealed by the Guardian two weeks ago, that could raise £8bn.

    💰 Also in drafts are BIG potential changes to inheritance tax that could generate £2.3bn a year.

    💳⌛️New measures would make it much more difficult to “gift” money and assets, such as farmland, tax free. It effectively scraps much of the relief used for passing on agricultural and business assets.

    This all sounds positive, and as we were saying the other day they are things that need a long-term service / overhaul.

    It would have been nice if it had not come out now, though.
    Good evening

    I actually support those measures so why isn't Reeves just honest and announce them
    You might support them, but Labour is terrified of talking about any tax rises outside of the limited package of token measures that they've already announced - simply because the assumption is that solid evidence that Labour's tax take is liable to be much more broad than they're willing to admit will be successfully weaponised by the Conservatives to drive some of their lost supporters back into the fold.

    Inheritance tax, in particular, is loathed by the electorate, and most voters are cakeist: they want lots more money spending on health and other nice things, but the money must on no account come from them because they are special sunflowers (and, indeed, already pay far too much.)

    There's this fiction - that the country won't be obliged to choose between punishing austerity and socking great tax rises, because miraculous economic growth will solve everything - which needs to be maintained between now and polling day. The electorate knows that this is bollocks, but believing really hard in fairies is more appealing than confronting the alternative. It gives everyone a little holiday from reality, before Labour starts doing all the nasty things and the voters then get to moan bitterly about how they were lied to.
    I'd rather pay my taxes when dead than when working.

    Workers pay too much tax. Just abolish inheritance tax it and tax any inheritances at the same rate as wages are taxed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,651
    MattW said:

    MattW said:

    This is my photo quota for the day - a baffling road design from near where I used to live, not far from here. It is like this for quite some distance.


    The highway corridor wall-to-wall is just over 17m. The carriageway is 13m. The central hatchings are just under 4m wide. The solid hatchings are "entering here is an offence unless emergency".

    The pedestrian refuges are 50m apart, and offset sideways in the carriageway by 1m+, so fundamentally different behaviour required from people driving vehicles.

    I cycle up here once or twice a week and have to take a ridiculously positive primary position to prevent dangerous overtakes, since expectations are so unclear.

    The cycle infrastructure is a shared footway, like virtually all of it in my town.

    The pedestrian refuge on the right is at https://what3words.com/sheep.retain.haven . It is not a haven since those bollards, like nearly all of them, are not designed to protect pedestrians, rather to avoid damage to vehicles that drive into them.

    What would you change?

    Website?
    I don't quite get that comment, unless you want a different website (I might be being affected by Friday teatime gin). Here is a Google link:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ashland+Rd+W,+Sutton-in-Ashfield/@53.126978,-1.2879198,101m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m6!3m5!1s0x4879969f691cd8b7:0xf24eb726f139295a!8m2!3d53.1302336!4d-1.283206!16s/g/1vc6cy5y?entry=ttu

    (You can navigate directly to Streetview from what3words.)
    It was a tongue-in-cheek suggestion that you may be posting this on the wrong website. It was a long and involved post that meant bugger-all to me and seemed to end up as a traffic planning test question.

    Other views are no doubt available.
  • pigeon said:

    If the Conservatives have retargeted their campaigning efforts into seats with majorities of over 20,000 in 2019 to ensure that they come 2nd in the number of seats won, what evidence is there of a shift in the other parties changing their priorities?

    The Greens appear to be focusing on North Herefordshire and Waveney Valley, but what about Labour and the Lib Dems?

    At a guess, Labour won't be changing its strategy to pursue ultra-safe Tory seats. Picking up a few more if they're already heading for an immense majority won't be as important to them as keeping the effort going in places that may be vulnerable to a measure of swingback - even if that now feels unlikely.

    The Liberal Democrats will have finite resources so couldn't go on the offensive in 200 seats even if they wanted to.
    I'd suggest Labour are also just much more likely to have seats fall into their lap than the Lib Dems. If the landslide is at the top end of expectations, they probably will win seats which have had very sparse campaigns, just because they are the default anti-Tory choice, and none of the other anti-Tory choices will have done much either.

    This is partly why I am very sceptical at projections putting the Lib Dems at the higher end of expectations and overtaking the Tories. To get there, they need to win seats they aren't targeting, and it's probably too late in the campaign to turn around now. They'd also probably take 40 odd seats and third place - it makes a big difference to their status and coverage in the next Parliament to surpass the SNP.

    It will be interesting to watch leader visit locations in the next few days, though. I believe the most distant target Starmer has gone to so far is Reading West which they'd get with only just over 200 gains (which would give them a huge majority but not actually that close to the real wipeout territory). He's been to lots that they need to win to get any majority at all.

    Davey has gone perhaps surprisingly far down the list to Chichester (which is outside the top 100), Stratford-upon-Avon (about 80), and Torbay (similar). Arguably there are special reasons, though - Torbay has been Lib Dem in the relatively recent past, and Stratford and Chichester had stellar Lib Dem local election results (although time will tell if it converts).

    My feeling is Starmer will get a bit more adventurous in the sorts of seats he visits and Davey a little less so - but the Davey ones will be particularly revealing in betting terms.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837

    pigeon said:

    If the Conservatives have retargeted their campaigning efforts into seats with majorities of over 20,000 in 2019 to ensure that they come 2nd in the number of seats won, what evidence is there of a shift in the other parties changing their priorities?

    The Greens appear to be focusing on North Herefordshire and Waveney Valley, but what about Labour and the Lib Dems?

    At a guess, Labour won't be changing its strategy to pursue ultra-safe Tory seats. Picking up a few more if they're already heading for an immense majority won't be as important to them as keeping the effort going in places that may be vulnerable to a measure of swingback - even if that now feels unlikely.

    The Liberal Democrats will have finite resources so couldn't go on the offensive in 200 seats even if they wanted to.
    How many seats do we reckon the LDs are targeting?
    There are 75 constituencies where Lib Dems were in second place in the 2019 general election and had more than 20% of the vote, the large bulk of them in Southern England and held by the Tories, either absolutely or nominally based on redrawn boundaries. Some of those won't be realistic (they're not gaining Cambridge off Labour, for example,) but most of them will feel within reach based on the cataclysmic polling data for the Tories. So, maybe looking at concentrating their resources on around 50-60 potential gains?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,414
    England NOT looking good against the Saffers. 54-3;off 9 overs. Looking for 164!
  • AugustusCarp2AugustusCarp2 Posts: 225
    Scott_xP said:
    Matt is a genius. Future generations of historians will pore over his work for insights into the British way of life from the 1990s to the 2020s.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,592
    edited June 21
    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big suprise on July 5th!

    I think it's worth looking at the 2019 European elections because it's the last time we had such volatility going into a real election.

    The final Survation had the Conservatives on 14% but they actually got 9%. Perhaps more interestingly, they had Labour on 23%, but they actually got only 14%. Their total for the Brexit Party on the other hand was spot on at 31%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_European_Parliament_election_in_the_United_Kingdom
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576

    Sandpit said:

    Ooh, wickets. Too little too late I fear for England. 164 seems like a big ask for the batsmen to chase.

    It's the lowest score at this ground in 5 matches in this tournament.
    About to be the second-lowest score. England way off the pace required and now three down.
  • TweedledeeTweedledee Posts: 1,405
    Chris said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    Oh dear, Johnny Mercer is fucked.

    Fred Thomas’ Certificate of Valediction - signed by the Commanding Officer, Special Forces Support Group



    https://x.com/johnestevens/status/1804162095123980459

    Wasn't Mercer complaining about claims he was a combatant? He could have had a glorious seven years behind a desk.
    No, senior special forces bods have vouched for Thomas’ service and it wasn’t behind a desk.
    You have to wonder why Mercer is repeating this claim then. Pretty low.
    Firstly he is desperate and secondly he knows that Thomas cannot come out and say, “actually I did this, this and this” etc which is why it’s pretty despicable of Mercer to call him a Walter Mitty as he knows what the rules are.
    Mercer will potentially be in a spot of bother should he win narrowly in July. Many here will recall Phil Woolas being unseated by an election petition in 2010, due to making false statements about a candidate's character and conduct contrary to section 106 of the Representation of the People Act, and the result being close enough conceivably to have been decisive.

    Quite apart from any defamation issues, he's potentially given himself quite a big problem.
    Has Mercer explained how he is in a position to know whether what Thomas says about his service is true or not?
    Yup. He says "I was a minister in the department" (MOD presumably). Though he must have gone looking, to know career details of an obscure junior officer. Which I think is atrocious, using civil service resources to dig political dirt.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,982
    Ouch

    After the humiliation will come something much worse: irrelevance. It is impossible to overstate just how totally irrelevant the Conservatives are about to become. There is no easy way to say this, but nobody will be filling in their wall charts with the runners and riders for the Tory leadership. The tight timetabling for elections to the 1922 Committee matters not. Senior Tory sources will be left to scream into the void.

    The alphabet spaghetti leftovers will be scraped into the bin: ERG, CCHQ, IEA, IDS. Bye bye to the banging of tables. Farewell to the star chambers. Arrivederci to the five families — they will struggle to muster one.

    Nobody will care who Penny Mordaunt has unfollowed on Twitter. Or about the sandwiches at Tom Tugendhat’s launch. Or what Latin phrase Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg has had mowed into his front lawn. Or anything that is said in all those WhatsApp groups. Step away from Nadine Dorries’s column, Lee Anderson’s GB News show, Dominic Cummings’s Substack. Think how much free time you’ll now have.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/where-are-they-now-file-beckons-for-spud-u-hate-and-the-rest-of-the-tories-029zgg2fb
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,119
    Nunu5 said:

    FPTP prevents extremism?

    Looks at the US.

    But America doesn't have the Westminster system.

    America's extremism is in large part driven by 3 things we don't have.

    1: A directly elected President outside of Congress, not answerable to their Representatives, our PM is part of the Commons.
    2: A directly elected Upper House that often conflicts with their President and or their Representatives, our Upper House knows its place and the Parliament Act can override it.
    3: An appointed for life SCOTUS that can set laws as it deems appropriate that elected Representatives can not change. Our Supreme Court can issue rulings, but our Commons can then change the law if it wants to.

    Our MPs in the Commons are mightily powerful compared America's Representatives. If the PM or the courts get out of line too far, the Commons can (and do) course correct rather than having decades-long battles to corrupt those institutions because elected representatives have no say in them.

    America's separation of powers is its downfall. It is a mistake.
    America's extremism is driven by the Electoral college which gives smaller states with smaller populations a bigger say than bigger populations
    During the Trump saga, I've quite enjoyed finding out about how Common Law has evolved differently, and how in some ways the USA retains more of the old structures - such as Grand Juries which went here before about 1850.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,619
    When did Rishi Sunak become England's batting coach?
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    If labour do fall into the 30s on polling day, there are going to be a lot of seats won on a much lower share of the vote than 2019 where it was mostly 40s and up winning seats. That means some unlikely gains but also probably some holds on 'buttons' for the Tories
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 60,404

    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big suprise on July 5th!

    I think it's worth looking at the 2019 European elections because it's the last time we had such volatility going into a real election.

    The final Survation had the Conservatives on 14% but they actually got 9%. Perhaps more interestingly, they had Labour on 23%, but they actually got only 14%. Their total for the Brexit Party on the other hand was spot on at 31%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_European_Parliament_election_in_the_United_Kingdom
    PR though and the European elections were always sort of treated as a giant opinion poll, as nothing that really mattered was at stake.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    Picture of the day: image search keyword ‘unrecoverable’.

  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968

    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big suprise on July 5th!

    I think it's worth looking at the 2019 European elections because it's the last time we had such volatility going into a real election.

    The final Survation had the Conservatives on 14% but they actually got 9%. Perhaps more interestingly, they had Labour on 23%, but they actually got only 14%. Their total for the Brexit Party on the other hand was spot on at 31%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_European_Parliament_election_in_the_United_Kingdom
    PR though and the European elections were always sort of treated as a giant opinion poll, as nothing that really mattered was at stake.
    I liked that, but the European elections were treated with even less respect than opinion polls, or even local elections.

    They were a bad joke at the best of times, and 2019 was not the best of times.

    This is a real election.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Scott_xP said:

    Ouch

    After the humiliation will come something much worse: irrelevance. It is impossible to overstate just how totally irrelevant the Conservatives are about to become. There is no easy way to say this, but nobody will be filling in their wall charts with the runners and riders for the Tory leadership. The tight timetabling for elections to the 1922 Committee matters not. Senior Tory sources will be left to scream into the void.

    The alphabet spaghetti leftovers will be scraped into the bin: ERG, CCHQ, IEA, IDS. Bye bye to the banging of tables. Farewell to the star chambers. Arrivederci to the five families — they will struggle to muster one.

    Nobody will care who Penny Mordaunt has unfollowed on Twitter. Or about the sandwiches at Tom Tugendhat’s launch. Or what Latin phrase Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg has had mowed into his front lawn. Or anything that is said in all those WhatsApp groups. Step away from Nadine Dorries’s column, Lee Anderson’s GB News show, Dominic Cummings’s Substack. Think how much free time you’ll now have.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/where-are-they-now-file-beckons-for-spud-u-hate-and-the-rest-of-the-tories-029zgg2fb

    Ouch indeed. How long until the Starmer drama starts in its place
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,169

    If labour do fall into the 30s on polling day, there are going to be a lot of seats won on a much lower share of the vote than 2019 where it was mostly 40s and up winning seats. That means some unlikely gains but also probably some holds on 'buttons' for the Tories

    Depends what the Tory share is tbh.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513

    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big suprise on July 5th!

    I think it's worth looking at the 2019 European elections because it's the last time we had such volatility going into a real election.

    The final Survation had the Conservatives on 14% but they actually got 9%. Perhaps more interestingly, they had Labour on 23%, but they actually got only 14%. Their total for the Brexit Party on the other hand was spot on at 31%.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2019_European_Parliament_election_in_the_United_Kingdom
    PR though and the European elections were always sort of treated as a giant opinion poll, as nothing that really mattered was at stake.
    But so many governments break their promises now, and mainstream parties agree on so much, that voters may well believe that voting is consequence-free.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,982

    Scott_xP said:

    Ouch

    After the humiliation will come something much worse: irrelevance. It is impossible to overstate just how totally irrelevant the Conservatives are about to become. There is no easy way to say this, but nobody will be filling in their wall charts with the runners and riders for the Tory leadership. The tight timetabling for elections to the 1922 Committee matters not. Senior Tory sources will be left to scream into the void.

    The alphabet spaghetti leftovers will be scraped into the bin: ERG, CCHQ, IEA, IDS. Bye bye to the banging of tables. Farewell to the star chambers. Arrivederci to the five families — they will struggle to muster one.

    Nobody will care who Penny Mordaunt has unfollowed on Twitter. Or about the sandwiches at Tom Tugendhat’s launch. Or what Latin phrase Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg has had mowed into his front lawn. Or anything that is said in all those WhatsApp groups. Step away from Nadine Dorries’s column, Lee Anderson’s GB News show, Dominic Cummings’s Substack. Think how much free time you’ll now have.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/where-are-they-now-file-beckons-for-spud-u-hate-and-the-rest-of-the-tories-029zgg2fb

    Ouch indeed. How long until the Starmer drama starts in its place
    2 weeks, 4 hours from now...
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,569
    "Apple Won’t Roll Out AI Tech In EU Market Over Regulatory Concerns"

    https://archive.ph/UFDra (Bloomberg)

    Apple's fight with the EU on privacy and monopoly concerns not ending any time soon.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,747
    edited June 21

    Chris said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    Oh dear, Johnny Mercer is fucked.

    Fred Thomas’ Certificate of Valediction - signed by the Commanding Officer, Special Forces Support Group



    https://x.com/johnestevens/status/1804162095123980459

    Wasn't Mercer complaining about claims he was a combatant? He could have had a glorious seven years behind a desk.
    No, senior special forces bods have vouched for Thomas’ service and it wasn’t behind a desk.
    You have to wonder why Mercer is repeating this claim then. Pretty low.
    Firstly he is desperate and secondly he knows that Thomas cannot come out and say, “actually I did this, this and this” etc which is why it’s pretty despicable of Mercer to call him a Walter Mitty as he knows what the rules are.
    Mercer will potentially be in a spot of bother should he win narrowly in July. Many here will recall Phil Woolas being unseated by an election petition in 2010, due to making false statements about a candidate's character and conduct contrary to section 106 of the Representation of the People Act, and the result being close enough conceivably to have been decisive.

    Quite apart from any defamation issues, he's potentially given himself quite a big problem.
    Has Mercer explained how he is in a position to know whether what Thomas says about his service is true or not?
    Yup. He says "I was a minister in the department" (MOD presumably). Though he must have gone looking, to know career details of an obscure junior officer. Which I think is atrocious, using civil service resources to dig political dirt.
    Well, I was wondering about that as a possibility, but I'm flabbergasted if Mercer has actually admitted he obtained the information through his ministerial office.

    Surely Mercer will be in a lot more than a "spot of bother"? It strikes me as much worse than the shenanigans over Tories having a flutter on the date of the election.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,982
    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,576
    edited June 21

    Scott_xP said:

    Ouch

    After the humiliation will come something much worse: irrelevance. It is impossible to overstate just how totally irrelevant the Conservatives are about to become. There is no easy way to say this, but nobody will be filling in their wall charts with the runners and riders for the Tory leadership. The tight timetabling for elections to the 1922 Committee matters not. Senior Tory sources will be left to scream into the void.

    The alphabet spaghetti leftovers will be scraped into the bin: ERG, CCHQ, IEA, IDS. Bye bye to the banging of tables. Farewell to the star chambers. Arrivederci to the five families — they will struggle to muster one.

    Nobody will care who Penny Mordaunt has unfollowed on Twitter. Or about the sandwiches at Tom Tugendhat’s launch. Or what Latin phrase Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg has had mowed into his front lawn. Or anything that is said in all those WhatsApp groups. Step away from Nadine Dorries’s column, Lee Anderson’s GB News show, Dominic Cummings’s Substack. Think how much free time you’ll now have.


    https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/where-are-they-now-file-beckons-for-spud-u-hate-and-the-rest-of-the-tories-029zgg2fb

    Ouch indeed. How long until the Starmer drama starts in its place
    If they win a load of unexpected seats, it’s not going to take long for another Jared O’Mara to come out of the woodwork.

    Look how many clear vetting fails have already come up during the campaign, from all parties.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Pulpstar said:

    If labour do fall into the 30s on polling day, there are going to be a lot of seats won on a much lower share of the vote than 2019 where it was mostly 40s and up winning seats. That means some unlikely gains but also probably some holds on 'buttons' for the Tories

    Depends what the Tory share is tbh.
    Not really. If Labour got, say 37, then there will be seats in that 'safest 100' of the Tories where nobody is mustering much. A 37, 22, 18, 14 type result and you've only got so many votes to spread about.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009
    MattW said:

    This is my photo quota for the day - a baffling road design from near where I used to live, not far from here. It is like this for quite some distance.


    The highway corridor wall-to-wall is just over 17m. The carriageway is 13m. The central hatchings are just under 4m wide. The solid hatchings are "entering here is an offence unless emergency". ~12000 vehicles per day. 30mph indicated speed limit.

    The pedestrian refuges are 50m apart, and offset sideways in the carriageway by 1m+, so fundamentally different behaviour required from people driving vehicles.

    I cycle up here once or twice a week and have to take a ridiculously positive primary position to prevent dangerous overtakes, since expectations are so unclear.

    The cycle infrastructure is a shared footway, like virtually all of it in my town.

    The pedestrian refuge on the right is at https://what3words.com/sheep.retain.haven . It is not a haven since those bollards, like nearly all of them, are not designed to protect pedestrians, rather to avoid damage to vehicles that drive into them.

    What would you change?

    I know this one:

    Reduce the speed limit to 20mph.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,548
    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big suprise on July 5th!

    Only if Labour are in third....
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,867
    pigeon said:

    pigeon said:

    If the Conservatives have retargeted their campaigning efforts into seats with majorities of over 20,000 in 2019 to ensure that they come 2nd in the number of seats won, what evidence is there of a shift in the other parties changing their priorities?

    The Greens appear to be focusing on North Herefordshire and Waveney Valley, but what about Labour and the Lib Dems?

    At a guess, Labour won't be changing its strategy to pursue ultra-safe Tory seats. Picking up a few more if they're already heading for an immense majority won't be as important to them as keeping the effort going in places that may be vulnerable to a measure of swingback - even if that now feels unlikely.

    The Liberal Democrats will have finite resources so couldn't go on the offensive in 200 seats even if they wanted to.
    How many seats do we reckon the LDs are targeting?
    There are 75 constituencies where Lib Dems were in second place in the 2019 general election and had more than 20% of the vote, the large bulk of them in Southern England and held by the Tories, either absolutely or nominally based on redrawn boundaries. Some of those won't be realistic (they're not gaining Cambridge off Labour, for example,) but most of them will feel within reach based on the cataclysmic polling data for the Tories. So, maybe looking at concentrating their resources on around 50-60 potential gains?
    Targeting strategy, inasmuch as how I would do it, relies on a series of factors of which the 2019 result isn't going to be the most important.

    The LDs will have looked at recent local results, the strength and extent of local organisation, candidate profile, available nearby resources and finances.

    Every LD parliamentary success, apart from by elections, has been built on local organisation based on a robust network of activists and campaigners, supported by deliverers, constituency wide.

    The same will be true of seats won on July 4th - it will be where the party maintains a strong profile all year round across the constituency. Ed Davey's visits will be aimed at seats meeting those criteria. I know all this from the 1990s when I worked in Tom Brake's constituency. We were 10,000 behind but had wiped out the Conservatives and Labour at council level - the worry was not whether we would outpoll the Conservative but whether we could get enough tactical votes from Labour.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    Very odd thing to say in an election campaign
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    MattW said:

    This is my photo quota for the day - a baffling road design from near where I used to live, not far from here. It is like this for quite some distance.


    The highway corridor wall-to-wall is just over 17m. The carriageway is 13m. The central hatchings are just under 4m wide. The solid hatchings are "entering here is an offence unless emergency". ~12000 vehicles per day. 30mph indicated speed limit.

    The pedestrian refuges are 50m apart, and offset sideways in the carriageway by 1m+, so fundamentally different behaviour required from people driving vehicles.

    I cycle up here once or twice a week and have to take a ridiculously positive primary position to prevent dangerous overtakes, since expectations are so unclear.

    The cycle infrastructure is a shared footway, like virtually all of it in my town.

    The pedestrian refuge on the right is at https://what3words.com/sheep.retain.haven . It is not a haven since those bollards, like nearly all of them, are not designed to protect pedestrians, rather to avoid damage to vehicles that drive into them.

    What would you change?

    Build a cycle track separated from the vehicles.

    Change the speed limit to 40mph.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,009

    pigeon said:

    If the Conservatives have retargeted their campaigning efforts into seats with majorities of over 20,000 in 2019 to ensure that they come 2nd in the number of seats won, what evidence is there of a shift in the other parties changing their priorities?

    The Greens appear to be focusing on North Herefordshire and Waveney Valley, but what about Labour and the Lib Dems?

    At a guess, Labour won't be changing its strategy to pursue ultra-safe Tory seats. Picking up a few more if they're already heading for an immense majority won't be as important to them as keeping the effort going in places that may be vulnerable to a measure of swingback - even if that now feels unlikely.

    The Liberal Democrats will have finite resources so couldn't go on the offensive in 200 seats even if they wanted to.
    How many seats do we reckon the LDs are targeting?
    Cooper said 80 a few days ago.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    Oh dear, Johnny Mercer is fucked.

    Fred Thomas’ Certificate of Valediction - signed by the Commanding Officer, Special Forces Support Group



    https://x.com/johnestevens/status/1804162095123980459

    Wasn't Mercer complaining about claims he was a combatant? He could have had a glorious seven years behind a desk.
    No, senior special forces bods have vouched for Thomas’ service and it wasn’t behind a desk.
    You have to wonder why Mercer is repeating this claim then. Pretty low.
    Firstly he is desperate and secondly he knows that Thomas cannot come out and say, “actually I did this, this and this” etc which is why it’s pretty despicable of Mercer to call him a Walter Mitty as he knows what the rules are.
    Mercer will potentially be in a spot of bother should he win narrowly in July. Many here will recall Phil Woolas being unseated by an election petition in 2010, due to making false statements about a candidate's character and conduct contrary to section 106 of the Representation of the People Act, and the result being close enough conceivably to have been decisive.

    Quite apart from any defamation issues, he's potentially given himself quite a big problem.
    Has Mercer explained how he is in a position to know whether what Thomas says about his service is true or not?
    Yup. He says "I was a minister in the department" (MOD presumably). Though he must have gone looking, to know career details of an obscure junior officer. Which I think is atrocious, using civil service resources to dig political dirt.
    Well, I was wondering about that as a possibility, but I'm flabbergasted if Mercer has actually admitted he obtained the information through his ministerial office.

    Surely Mercer will be in a lot more than a "spot of bother"? It strikes me as much worse than the shenanigans over Tories having a flutter on the date of the election.

    I’m more surprised that Mercer is saying that people in the MOD can look at a database of which soldiers are doing what and who is in special forces. There is clearly no way at all that could be a security risk. No way. No chance of a spy for a foreign country providing lists and numbers and operations of British personnel.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,812
    edited June 21
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    boulay said:

    RobD said:

    Oh dear, Johnny Mercer is fucked.

    Fred Thomas’ Certificate of Valediction - signed by the Commanding Officer, Special Forces Support Group



    https://x.com/johnestevens/status/1804162095123980459

    Wasn't Mercer complaining about claims he was a combatant? He could have had a glorious seven years behind a desk.
    No, senior special forces bods have vouched for Thomas’ service and it wasn’t behind a desk.
    You have to wonder why Mercer is repeating this claim then. Pretty low.
    Firstly he is desperate and secondly he knows that Thomas cannot come out and say, “actually I did this, this and this” etc which is why it’s pretty despicable of Mercer to call him a Walter Mitty as he knows what the rules are.
    Mercer will potentially be in a spot of bother should he win narrowly in July. Many here will recall Phil Woolas being unseated by an election petition in 2010, due to making false statements about a candidate's character and conduct contrary to section 106 of the Representation of the People Act, and the result being close enough conceivably to have been decisive.

    Quite apart from any defamation issues, he's potentially given himself quite a big problem.
    Has Mercer explained how he is in a position to know whether what Thomas says about his service is true or not?
    Yup. He says "I was a minister in the department" (MOD presumably). Though he must have gone looking, to know career details of an obscure junior officer. Which I think is atrocious, using civil service resources to dig political dirt.
    Well, I was wondering about that as a possibility, but I'm flabbergasted if Mercer has actually admitted he obtained the information through his ministerial office.

    Surely Mercer will be in a lot more than a "spot of bother"? It strikes me as much worse than the shenanigans over Tories having a flutter on the date of the election.

    Odd wording, [edit] about Mr M being a minister, speaking out loud at the hustings presumably. But that's what it seems to say. (The other interpretation is that Mr Thomas was never a minister in the department, but that doesn't really make sense in the context.)

    https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2024-06-21/johnny-mercer-accuses-labour-opponent-of-lying-about-military-service
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    Farage is Putinist scum.
    He's a useful idiot for Russia, just like his mate Trump.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    Very odd thing to say in an election campaign
    Nigel Farage's target audience is NOT the UK electorate. Instead, it's Donald Trump.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061

    Nunu5 said:

    https://x.com/ashcowburn/status/1804182490711531878

    I am convinced that REFORM are in second place and we are in for a big suprise on July 5th!

    Only if Labour are in third....
    Bong! And the exit poll predicts the Tories will be opposition to Nigel Farages Reform Party with Keir Starmers Labour reduced to their Liverpool redout just behind Sir Edward Daveys Liberal Democrats and George Galloways Workers Party
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,261
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    It's Friday, so he's probably had the afternoon in the pub.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,149
    edited June 21
    spudgfsh said:

    FPTP prevents extremism?

    Looks at the US.

    But America doesn't have the Westminster system.

    America's extremism is in large part driven by 3 things we don't have.

    1: A directly elected President outside of Congress, not answerable to their Representatives, our PM is part of the Commons.
    2: A directly elected Upper House that often conflicts with their President and or their Representatives, our Upper House knows its place and the Parliament Act can override it.
    3: An appointed for life SCOTUS that can set laws as it deems appropriate that elected Representatives can not change. Our Supreme Court can issue rulings, but our Commons can then change the law if it wants to.

    Our MPs in the Commons are mightily powerful compared America's Representatives. If the PM or the courts get out of line too far, the Commons can (and do) course correct rather than having decades-long battles to corrupt those institutions because elected representatives have no say in them.

    America's separation of powers is its downfall. It is a mistake.
    it is possible to override the SCOTUS, it just takes changing the constitution.
    Yes and no. Ultimately, the Constitution is a relatively limited document in terms of scope and both federal and state governments have very wide discretion in their areas of responsibility. Additionally, in many cases, the states or federal government can, when a law is struck down, achieve pretty much the same result in a slightly different way.

    What you can't do (or you can but you'll get very little change) is just say "I don't like this law so I'm going to the Supreme Court for a second opinion" - you do actually need a serious argument that it is unconstitutional. There are a load of laws the right wing majority now on the court probably disagree with on a personal level, but they are entirely safe.

    None of that is to downplay the Supreme Court's pivotal importance in SOME areas. But the scope of that is actually quite limited.

    Part of the thing with the cases involving Trump being held off the ballot in some states was the Supreme Court said you CAN legislate on this under the Constitution at the federal level... but haven't. The Constitution doesn't need changing to do that - it needs a simple majority (which is unlikely to happen in the near future but isn't a constitutional amendment).
  • I did say we'd reached peak Reform.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906
    edited June 21

    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    What a fucking appeaser.

    Any vote for Farage/Reform is a vote for Putin.
    Tories need to hammer this until 4th July.
    It should not be hard to dig up dozens of clips of Trump saying mad stuff about Russia and Ukraine, and put them alongside lots of clips of Farage praising Trump and hanging out with him.

    Any CCHQ wonks reading, this is piss easy stuff, so get to work.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837

    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    What a fucking appeaser.

    Any vote for Farage/Reform is a vote for Putin.
    Nigel Farage has reiterated that he blames the West and NATO for the Russian invasion of Ukraine - as he confirmed that he previously said he "admired" Vladimir Putin as a statesman.

    Speaking to the BBC, the Reform UK leader was asked about his previous comments on Russia and Ukraine.

    Asked about the Russia invading Ukraine in 2022, Mr Farage told Nick Robinson that he has been saying since Berlin Wall fell there would be a war in Ukraine due to the "ever-eastward expansion of NATO and the European Union".

    He said this was giving this Putin a reason to say to the Russian people "'They're coming for us again,' and to go to war".

    The Reform leader confirmed his belief the West "provoked" the conflict - but did say it was Putin's "fault".

    On Putin himself, previous comments Mr Farage had made were put to him.

    He was asked about comments he made previously stating that Putin was the statesman he most admired.

    Mr Farage said he disliked the Russian leader - but "I admired him as a political operator because he's managed to take control of running Russia".

    "This is the nonsense, you know, you can pick any figure, current or historical, and say, you know, did they have good aspects?" he added.

    "And if you said, well, they were very talented in one area, then suddenly you're the biggest supporter."


    https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-2024-sunak-starmer-conservatives-labour-reform-davey-lib-dem-12593360?postid=7854097#liveblog-body
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,704
    "West provoked Ukraine war, Nigel Farage says" is lead story on BBC News website:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news
  • theakestheakes Posts: 930
    How many deposits will the Lib Dems lose and in how many seats will the Greens beat them?
    If the Lib Dems come out of this with, what 30, 40,50, 60 seats what happens then. They will have virtually nothing to build on in the other 600 plus. It could be the final nail in their coffin as the Cons will inevitable rise again and take back all their southern losses.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,548
    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    Let's get hundreds of Ukrainian refugees to Clacton to correct that nonsense on the doorsteps.
  • pigeon said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @KevinASchofield

    NEW: Nigel Farage says the West "provoked" Vladimir Putin into invading Ukraine.

    What a fucking appeaser.

    Any vote for Farage/Reform is a vote for Putin.
    Nigel Farage has reiterated that he blames the West and NATO for the Russian invasion of Ukraine - as he confirmed that he previously said he "admired" Vladimir Putin as a statesman.

    Speaking to the BBC, the Reform UK leader was asked about his previous comments on Russia and Ukraine.

    Asked about the Russia invading Ukraine in 2022, Mr Farage told Nick Robinson that he has been saying since Berlin Wall fell there would be a war in Ukraine due to the "ever-eastward expansion of NATO and the European Union".

    He said this was giving this Putin a reason to say to the Russian people "'They're coming for us again,' and to go to war".

    The Reform leader confirmed his belief the West "provoked" the conflict - but did say it was Putin's "fault".

    On Putin himself, previous comments Mr Farage had made were put to him.

    He was asked about comments he made previously stating that Putin was the statesman he most admired.

    Mr Farage said he disliked the Russian leader - but "I admired him as a political operator because he's managed to take control of running Russia".

    "This is the nonsense, you know, you can pick any figure, current or historical, and say, you know, did they have good aspects?" he added.

    "And if you said, well, they were very talented in one area, then suddenly you're the biggest supporter."


    https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-2024-sunak-starmer-conservatives-labour-reform-davey-lib-dem-12593360?postid=7854097#liveblog-body
    Strong Diane Abbott "Mao did more good than harm" vibes
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    TimS said:

    Nunu5 said:

    TimS said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @MrHarryCole
    TVA4 - the code sending chills down spines of Tory canvass teams.

    It's what their Vote Source software says are Reform waverers.

    But hearing endless reports that when those doors are knocked they are not just wavering but almost always GONE.

    South is very, very bad for the Tories, troops say.

    Not just Reform either... but Liberals.

    Sources say totemic seats like Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are in "freefall".

    https://x.com/MrHarryCole/status/1804186446447755523

    Both Lib Dems and Reform are immune from the “don’t give Labour a supermajority” nonsense, in fact they might even benefit from it if people reply “fair enough, we won’t. But we’re not voting for you lot”.

    Still think Tories end up above 26% though.
    Based on......? Gut feel, only
    Based on many elections as a Lib Dem getting excited about us surging during the campaign and then being disappointed when at the end of the day the big two close ranks and burst our bubble.

    Happened to us in 1983, 2010 and 2019 and to an extent also in 2005.

    Happened to UKIP in 2015, and happens to the Greens every time.
    It didn't happen to UKIP, they got 13% close to what the polls are saying it is FPTP that screwed them
This discussion has been closed.