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Into the Great Wide Yonder – politicalbetting.com

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  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,066

    Excellent performance from England, they made sure they didn't peak too soon in this tournament.

    They've been making sure they don't peak for decades, when they finally do it our minds will be blown.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964

    Angela Rayner 🌹
    @AngelaRayner
    Celebrating a vital win with the gaffer.

    Well done lads! 🦁 🦁 🦁

    https://x.com/AngelaRayner/status/1802445361489072281

    ====


    Starmer only has a white t-shirt.

    Someone has fucked up.

    Sunak left early ....... apparently he is NOT opposed to assisted dying........
  • Sunak rushed back at half time to film an ad for Iceland.
  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,051
    Nunu5 said:

    Angela Rayner 🌹
    @AngelaRayner
    Celebrating a vital win with the gaffer.

    Well done lads! 🦁 🦁 🦁

    https://x.com/AngelaRayner/status/1802445361489072281

    ====


    Starmer only has a white t-shirt.

    Someone has fucked up.

    Sunak left early ....... apparently he is NOT opposed to assisted dying........
    Of Reform and Labour voters?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,513

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,285
    kle4 said:

    Excellent performance from England, they made sure they didn't peak too soon in this tournament.

    They've been making sure they don't peak for decades, when they finally do it our minds will be blown.
    Tantric football
  • Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837

    Excellent performance from England, they made sure they didn't peak too soon in this tournament.

    I'm slightly concerned that they may have peaked before the tournament, and that the Iceland performance was some kind of portent.

    Regardless, there's a strong incentive to win the group. Winner apparently draws a third place team in the round of 16. Second place in the group probably ends up playing Germany.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,692

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    Dutch fans spotted in ‘black face’ at Euro 2024 match

    I would have thought Trudeau would support France.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    The thing to bear in mind is that the standard at the Euros is much higher overall than at the WC. There are no easy games. Every team has players who play in top leagues and who are well coached. I think Serbia may well collect some points in this group. This win will prove useful for England.
  • Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Ben Shapiro? To run for the Democrats?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16
    DavidL said:

    The thing to bear in mind is that the standard at the Euros is much higher overall than at the WC. There are no easy games. Every team has players who play in top leagues and who are well coached. I think Serbia may well collect some points in this group. This win will prove useful for England.

    The fact about players playing in top leagues is the most important. You aren't playing against players who have never experienced top quality football.

    The only thing to remember is because of limited time international teams have together it is nearly impossible to play the sort of highly complex tactical approaches of the likes of Man City or Liverpool, where new players are given up to a year to learn the system.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837

    OT whilst everything else has been capturing our attention an intersting development in Gaza. The Israeli military announce a temporary pause in their campaign in order to allow aid to reach civilians... and Netanyahu calls the decision 'unacceptable'.

    The man is a fecking lunatic. If your own army is saying it needs to ease up to help civilians then what the fuck is Netanyahu doing criticising them for it.

    As long as the butchery continues, so does his career.
  • Nunu5Nunu5 Posts: 964
    biggles said:

    Nunu5 said:

    Angela Rayner 🌹
    @AngelaRayner
    Celebrating a vital win with the gaffer.

    Well done lads! 🦁 🦁 🦁

    https://x.com/AngelaRayner/status/1802445361489072281

    ====


    Starmer only has a white t-shirt.

    Someone has fucked up.

    Sunak left early ....... apparently he is NOT opposed to assisted dying........
    Of Reform and Labour voters?
    He wants someone to put him out of his misery, perhaps
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798
    edited June 16

    OT whilst everything else has been capturing our attention an intersting development in Gaza. The Israeli military announce a temporary pause in their campaign in order to allow aid to reach civilians... and Netanyahu calls the decision 'unacceptable'.

    The man is a fecking lunatic. If your own army is saying it needs to ease up to help civilians then what the fuck is Netanyahu doing criticising them for it.

    Probably a bit of cosplay to keep Netanyahu's government together. If he had said ok some of his cabinet would have resigned. The pressure on Netanyahu both externally and internally is immense right now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16
    This guy knows his onions and I thought this is interesting. Basically international managers aren't very good...

    ----

    People are all like, "But our manager..."

    First of all, I follow this sport professionally and I'm not even sure your coach is below average across the entire population.

    Second of all, HAVE YOU SEEN EVERYONE ELSE'S MANAGERS? For the most part, they are washed, terrible, or both. That's how international football works!

    Germany were underrated in the opening betting markets because they had a highly competent coach AND home field.

    Austria's coach is good, but they are still a smallish country.

    Various other teams have some combination of old + young talent or a head coach that is in the position because no one else wanted the job. One European team has two of the ten best players in the English Premier League and is not even in the tournament.

    Anyway, England were probably correctly 3rd favs coming into this behind Germany and France. They players are great. The manager... is fine.

    Enjoy the ride.

    https://x.com/mixedknuts/status/1802411432161534295
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,513
    Andy_JS said:

    Going back to yesterday's MRP, it's interesting how the vote shares are Lab 40%, Con 24%, so a 16% lead gives Labour a majority of 262 seats, when a similar lead for the Tories in 1983 gave them a majority of only 144.

    It's the ratio that is important, not the difference. 40/24 is greater than 42/28.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,692
    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Summer’s coming lads.
    No more Anchorage. More Ankara.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,982
    @rjbarfield1

    A bit Tony Blair in the first half and Keir Starmer in the second.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,044

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Well, yes, but the underlying reason why convicted felon, jury-determined sex offender and multiple fraudster Donald Trump has any chance at all is a Republican-supporting media that is entirely divorced from the truth.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Streeting this morning gave us a taste of how Labour will attempt to combat the complacency risk.

    “Imagine waking up on the 5th of July and the Tories have landed a surprise 5th term, Sunak’s smug face as he walks back into Downing Street. Imagine how we’ll all feel”.

    I expect lots of literature will be along these lines. GOTV.
  • DoubleCarpetDoubleCarpet Posts: 888
    Scott_xP said:

    @rjbarfield1

    A bit Tony Blair in the first half and Keir Starmer in the second.

    But if the polls/MRP are true, Lab 2024 > Lab 1997, certainly for seats & maj
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968

    Scott_xP said:

    @rjbarfield1

    A bit Tony Blair in the first half and Keir Starmer in the second.

    But if the polls/MRP are true, Lab 2024 > Lab 1997, certainly for seats & maj
    That's because rather than the opposition playing their first team they have put out the Under 8 girls team.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 62,692
    TimS said:

    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Streeting this morning gave us a taste of how Labour will attempt to combat the complacency risk.

    “Imagine waking up on the 5th of July and the Tories have landed a surprise 5th term, Sunak’s smug face as he walks back into Downing Street. Imagine how we’ll all feel”.

    I expect lots of literature will be along these lines. GOTV.
    Yep. Has to be a massive GOTV operation.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,775
    DavidL said:

    OT whilst everything else has been capturing our attention an intersting development in Gaza. The Israeli military announce a temporary pause in their campaign in order to allow aid to reach civilians... and Netanyahu calls the decision 'unacceptable'.

    The man is a fecking lunatic. If your own army is saying it needs to ease up to help civilians then what the fuck is Netanyahu doing criticising them for it.

    Probably a bit of cosplay to keep Netanyahu's government together. If he had said ok some of his cabinet would have resigned. The pressure on Netanyahu both externally and internally is immense right now.
    If you'll indulge me...

    The creatures outside looked from nutter to nutter, and from nutter to nutter, and from nutter to nutter again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Scott_xP said:

    @rjbarfield1

    A bit Tony Blair in the first half and Keir Starmer in the second.

    But if the polls/MRP are true, Lab 2024 > Lab 1997, certainly for seats & maj
    Polls and MRPs though presumably would have shown something equally disastrous at this stage of the 1997 election, albeit without the RefUK effect.

    That’s the interesting difference with 1997. Back then there was no meaningful division on the right, nor was there a material Green or SNP challenge to Labour, but the Lib Dems were polling several points higher.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,775
    edited June 16

    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday

    You are Scott_xP, and I claim my five pounds.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    ohnotnow said:

    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday

    You are Scott_xP, and I claim my five pounds.
    Even Scott n Paste is failing to get his usual excited self over the tw@ttering during this GE campaign.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited June 16

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action
    sooner and replace Biden.
    The only reason Trump was
    removed from the White
    House in the first place was
    because Biden beat him in
    the rustbelt swing states in 2020 Hillary had lost to Trump in 2016.

    If the Democrats replaced Biden with another elitist coastal liberal candidate, Melania may as well start measuring the drapes in the White House again for her return to DC with Donald!
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486
    HYUFD said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action
    sooner and replace Biden.
    The only reason Trump was
    removed from the White
    House in the first place was
    because Biden beat him in
    the rustbelt swing states in 2020 Hillary had lost to Trump in 2016.

    If the Democrats replaced Biden with another elitist coastal liberal candidate, Melania may as well start measuring the drapes in the White House again for her return to DC with Donald!
    I’m guessing the deal with Melania is that she stays with him until the election and then can fuck off so she probs won’t be measuring the drapes otherwise I agree.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    That's the most respect she's shown him during the campaign.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,066

    That's the most respect she's shown him during the campaign.
    I don't know how much to believe the suggestions the pair don't get on, but I am curious what role she might actually get in a Starmer government, and if all the Shadow Cabinet will in fact carry over into the Cabinet proper.

    On the one hand he is usually seen as cautious so keeping the team in place would make sense, but on the other he has shown some ruthlessness in tackling internal opponents or rivals, and his own stock will never be higher.

    So might there be some disappointed Shadow Cabinet figures? And although Rayner's position in the party is beyond Starmer's gift, he could easily sideline her if he wanted, even if he made her his nominal deputy PM.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    Betting post

    You can get 12/1 on turnout being 67.50% to 69.99% with Betfair Exchange.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.225754842
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,066
    Andy_JS said:

    Betting post

    You can get 12/1 on turnout being 67.50% to 69.99% with Betfair Exchange.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.225754842

    Unlikely, but tempting I suppose.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Betting post

    You can get 12/1 on turnout being 67.50% to 69.99% with Betfair Exchange.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.225754842

    Unlikely, but tempting I suppose.
    I can see turnout going up very slightly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,066
    edited June 16
    Conservatives to gain 100 seats based on recent poll...in Canada

    Latest Abacus poll modelled out

    CON: 223 seats (+104)
    BQ: 43 seats (+11)
    NDP: 38 seats (+13)
    LIB: 37 seats (-123)
    GRN: 2 seats (-)

    https://nitter.poast.org/RealAlbanianPat/status/1802330370492231765#m

    Long way to go on that one though. Trudeau will have done well to get 10 years considering he only had a majority for 4.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,826
    kle4 said:

    That's the most respect she's shown him during the campaign.
    I don't know how much to believe the suggestions the pair don't get on, but I am curious what role she might actually get in a Starmer government, and if all the Shadow Cabinet will in fact carry over into the Cabinet proper.

    On the one hand he is usually seen as cautious so keeping the team in place would make sense, but on the other he has shown some ruthlessness in tackling internal opponents or rivals, and his own stock will never be higher.

    So might there be some disappointed Shadow Cabinet figures? And although Rayner's position in the party is beyond Starmer's gift, he could easily sideline her if he wanted, even if he made her his nominal deputy PM.
    She seems to have been going off message quite a bit which can't have pleased him.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,066
    Actually kind of agree with this point, there are a lot of new 'duties' and the like not only in the Labour manifesto.


    (Things they practically all agree on are a lot more mental health support, support for rural bus services, and increasing defence spending, albeit sometimes more in an aspirational than actual way)
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16
    kle4 said:

    Actually kind of agree with this point, there are a lot of new 'duties' and the like not only in the Labour manifesto.


    (Things they practically all agree on are a lot more mental health support, support for rural bus services, and increasing defence spending, albeit sometimes more in an aspirational than actual way)

    What is that sound I hear....lawyers rubbing their hands. Even the shit law project might win a case.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,652
    edited June 16
    kle4 said:

    That's the most respect she's shown him during the campaign.
    I don't know how much to believe the suggestions the pair don't get on, but I am curious what role she might actually get in a Starmer government, and if all the Shadow Cabinet will in fact carry over into the Cabinet proper.

    On the one hand he is usually seen as cautious so keeping the team in place would make sense, but on the other he has shown some ruthlessness in tackling internal opponents or rivals, and his own stock will never be higher.

    So might there be some disappointed Shadow Cabinet figures? And although Rayner's position in the party is beyond Starmer's gift, he could easily sideline her if he wanted, even if he made her his nominal deputy PM.
    If Starmer is successful, he will be the first Labour leader to enter No 10 as PM with an appointed shadow cabinet.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    Reform UK’s parliamentary candidate in Kemi Badenoch’s constituency has resigned after it emerged he previously urged people to vote for the BNP.

    Grant StClair-Armstrong, the party’s candidate in North West Essex, told BBC News he had “never supported the BNP” and had been forced to stand down by the party.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw880334dgyo
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    edited June 16
    Three points tonight in the opening game. Clean sheet. Foden was absent, but job done. On to Thursday.
  • boulayboulay Posts: 5,486

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    That’s surprising, I can’t think of any situation where Rory has been about to get in the hole then panicked and fucked it all up recently.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,066

    Reform UK’s parliamentary candidate in Kemi Badenoch’s constituency has resigned after it emerged he previously urged people to vote for the BNP.

    Grant StClair-Armstrong, the party’s candidate in North West Essex, told BBC News he had “never supported the BNP” and had been forced to stand down by the party.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw880334dgyo

    Never really understand these stories. He doesn't deny the message he posted saying Vote BNP and yet still denies he supported them, which is just absurd. He expresses some regret over his comments, but that's quite different to expecting people to reject the evidence before their eyes.

    Meanwhile, the party claims he resigned but he maintains he was forced to stand down, but since it's too late to remove him from the ballot the point is largely immaterial, so why did he even bother to 'stand down'? The party could certainly disavow him, but since he's rejected the official explanation from them he's essentially requiring that anyway.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,174

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Yes, it is bad. It wouldn’t be worse if you said you like Putin.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664
    edited June 16

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Bring back hickory shafts, I say. I'd like to seem him try smashing it into next week with one...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Bring back hickory shafts, I say. I'd like to seem him try smashing it into next week with one...
    He has quite a big YouTube channel. He has done videos playing holes with s##t clubs, old clubs, etc. Its scary how good elite golfers are.

    They say now to get on tour +5/+6 is about the level you need to be to qualify and that doesn't make you anywhere near elite. The top guys will be many many under on your run of the mill courses without the incredibly difficult pin positions.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Was horrible to watch. Again. Feel really sorry for the guy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Was horrible to watch. Again. Feel really sorry for the guy.
    Season 3 of the Netflix show following the players as they travel the PGA tour / majors is going to be interesting with all the off and on course action.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    More interesting figures from the MRP.

    Labour vote down by 10% in Hackney North and 20% in Hackney South.

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/
    https://electionresults.parliament.uk/general-elections/5
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16
    tlg86 said:

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Yes, it is bad. It wouldn’t be worse if you said you like Putin.
    Sounds like I should be standing for Reform....scandal, Francis Urquhart, candidate for the New Forest, admits he has asked people to vote for the BNP exclaimed his love for Bryson DeChambeau.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Bring back hickory shafts, I say. I'd like to seem him try smashing it into next week with one...
    He has quite a big YouTube channel. He has done videos playing holes with s##t clubs, old clubs, etc. Its scary how good elite golfers are.

    They say now to get on tour +5/+6 is about the level you need to be to qualify and that doesn't make you anywhere near elite. The top guys will be many many under on your run of the mill courses without the incredibly difficult pin positions.
    Oh, I know. I just think it would be a better game with more skill and less beef.

    Run of the mill courses used to offer at least some challenge even to good players but when you can hit it 330 yards off the tee it breaks things.

    I used to be half decent (mis-spent youth) and was low single figures back in the 80s when ball distances were still sane. The main difference with the pros then was how consistent their ball striking was rather than how hard they could hit it. Big clubs have taken a bit of that skill away.

    I don't play now as I'm not a big fan of golf clubs (the institutions) although maybe I should give it another go.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Bring back hickory shafts, I say. I'd like to seem him try smashing it into next week with one...
    He has quite a big YouTube channel. He has done videos playing holes with s##t clubs, old clubs, etc. Its scary how good elite golfers are.

    They say now to get on tour +5/+6 is about the level you need to be to qualify and that doesn't make you anywhere near elite. The top guys will be many many under on your run of the mill courses without the incredibly difficult pin positions.
    Oh, I know. I just think it would be a better game with more skill and less beef.

    Run of the mill courses used to offer at least some challenge even to good players but when you can hit it 330 yards off the tee it breaks things.

    I used to be half decent (mis-spent youth) and was low single figures back in the 80s when ball distances were still sane. The main difference with the pros then was how consistent their ball striking was rather than how hard they could hit it. Big clubs have taken a bit of that skill away.

    I don't play now as I'm not a big fan of golf clubs (the institutions) although maybe I should give it another go.
    The authorities have made terrible decisions with their stance that pro and amateur rules and regs must be the same. Its stupid. The easiest change they could make is that pros must use a golf ball that restricts distance in the way they redesigned the javelin in the 90s when all the elite athletes were throwing out the centre of stadiums.

    The weekend warrior can still gain from all the modern tech and make things more enjoyable, while the pros can't overpower the courses. Few play the elite courses that pros play on and even if you do, what does it matter if the 18 handicapper has a slightly more forgiving ball than the pros.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    "How the liberal-left can fight woke ideology
    Nick Cohen"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-liberal-left-can-fight-woke-ideology/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    Andy_JS said:

    "How the liberal-left can fight woke ideology
    Nick Cohen"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-liberal-left-can-fight-woke-ideology/

    But most agree with it, so why would they want to fight it.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,664

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Bring back hickory shafts, I say. I'd like to seem him try smashing it into next week with one...
    He has quite a big YouTube channel. He has done videos playing holes with s##t clubs, old clubs, etc. Its scary how good elite golfers are.

    They say now to get on tour +5/+6 is about the level you need to be to qualify and that doesn't make you anywhere near elite. The top guys will be many many under on your run of the mill courses without the incredibly difficult pin positions.
    Oh, I know. I just think it would be a better game with more skill and less beef.

    Run of the mill courses used to offer at least some challenge even to good players but when you can hit it 330 yards off the tee it breaks things.

    I used to be half decent (mis-spent youth) and was low single figures back in the 80s when ball distances were still sane. The main difference with the pros then was how consistent their ball striking was rather than how hard they could hit it. Big clubs have taken a bit of that skill away.

    I don't play now as I'm not a big fan of golf clubs (the institutions) although maybe I should give it another go.
    The authorities have made terrible decisions with their stance that pro and amateur rules and regs must be the same. Its stupid. The easiest change they could make is that pros must use a golf that restricts distance in the way they redesigned the javelin in the 90s when all the elite athletes were throwing out the centre of stadiums.

    The weekend warrior can still gain from all the modern tech and make things more enjoyable, while the pros can't overpower the courses.
    Nah, the weekend warrior should practice more. :)

    It is all driven by commerce, of course. There always has to be a new shiny thing to flog to the gullible and without the direct link to the pro game, the marketing wouldn't be quite as good.

    Having said that, I still have my new-fangled NorthWestern metal driver from when people were still using persimmon. Perhaps I shouldn't talk.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,968
    edited June 16

    Rory with the yips.

    Oh dear.

    Is it bad I love the DeShamblator.....he is just so unorthodox.
    Bring back hickory shafts, I say. I'd like to seem him try smashing it into next week with one...
    He has quite a big YouTube channel. He has done videos playing holes with s##t clubs, old clubs, etc. Its scary how good elite golfers are.

    They say now to get on tour +5/+6 is about the level you need to be to qualify and that doesn't make you anywhere near elite. The top guys will be many many under on your run of the mill courses without the incredibly difficult pin positions.
    Oh, I know. I just think it would be a better game with more skill and less beef.

    Run of the mill courses used to offer at least some challenge even to good players but when you can hit it 330 yards off the tee it breaks things.

    I used to be half decent (mis-spent youth) and was low single figures back in the 80s when ball distances were still sane. The main difference with the pros then was how consistent their ball striking was rather than how hard they could hit it. Big clubs have taken a bit of that skill away.

    I don't play now as I'm not a big fan of golf clubs (the institutions) although maybe I should give it another go.
    The authorities have made terrible decisions with their stance that pro and amateur rules and regs must be the same. Its stupid. The easiest change they could make is that pros must use a golf that restricts distance in the way they redesigned the javelin in the 90s when all the elite athletes were throwing out the centre of stadiums.

    The weekend warrior can still gain from all the modern tech and make things more enjoyable, while the pros can't overpower the courses.
    Nah, the weekend warrior should practice more. :)

    It is all driven by commerce, of course. There always has to be a new shiny thing to flog to the gullible and without the direct link to the pro game, the marketing wouldn't be quite as good.

    Having said that, I still have my new-fangled NorthWestern metal driver from when people were still using persimmon. Perhaps I shouldn't talk.
    Its a nonsense already. The elite of the game (often unknowingly) have their irons hand made in Japan, the likes of Titleist make different version of the golf balls with differing characteristic which they do a "fitting" for. Most have their putters are hand made by a one man band in Northern California.

    The DeShamblator has all sorts of bespoke weird stuff made just for him. Famously his irons are all the same length.

    I am not nipping down American Golf Discount and picking up the $50k set of hand made Japan irons or the $1k hand made bespoke putter, let alone a sleeve of the Titleist pro-doper-mini batch with weird characteristics.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    "Theodore Dalrymple
    Labour’s Century
    The party that once sought to improve life chances in the U.K. now strives mostly to improve the lives of opportunists."

    https://www.city-journal.org/article/labours-century
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794
    Andy_JS said:

    Betting post

    You can get 12/1 on turnout being 67.50% to 69.99% with Betfair Exchange.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.225754842

    I think possibly a pesudo hedge to those of us on the 8/1 on Starmer turnout not beating Corbyn too. But I'm too drunk to be sure so not betting atm.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    edited June 17
    These are the Survation MRP shares to one decimal point, which resulted in a Lab maj of 252 seats.

    Lab 39.6%
    Con 23.5%
    Ref 12.3%
    LD 11.4%
    Grn 6.4%
    SNP 4.1%
    PC 0.5%
    Oth 2.1%

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,061
    Andy_JS said:

    "How the liberal-left can fight woke ideology
    Nick Cohen"

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-the-liberal-left-can-fight-woke-ideology/

    The problem with expecting the liberal-left to protest speech suppression and job quotas is that they agree with them and are imposing them. As are the radical right. As I have been saying for what might actually be years now, they are just disagreeing on *what* speech gets suppressed.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,513
    Andy_JS said:

    "Theodore Dalrymple
    Labour’s Century
    The party that once sought to improve life chances in the U.K. now strives mostly to improve the lives of opportunists."

    https://www.city-journal.org/article/labours-century

    That's a great article.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,513
    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Theodore Dalrymple
    Labour’s Century
    The party that once sought to improve life chances in the U.K. now strives mostly to improve the lives of opportunists."

    https://www.city-journal.org/article/labours-century

    Describing children born in 2024 as "illegitimate" is vile.
    Looking it up he is simply using the legal term. Legitamacy is still apparently the correct description even if it has little relevance today.

    It might be something Labour should look at changing but to criticise Dalrymple for using the correct legal term seems petty.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,344

    Sean_F said:

    Stephen Fry likens removing Parthenon marbles to Nazi Germany taking the Arc de Triomphe

    https://amp.theguardian.com/artanddesign/article/2024/jun/17/stephen-fry-parthenon-marbles-british-museum-returned-greece

    Stephen Fry is bang on the money.

    The argument among Philhellenes has always been that the Greeks invented democracy (except for women, slaves, metics, ie 90% of the population), and that Ottoman rule was totally illegitimate. Hence, the Ottomans had no right to give away the marbles that the
    locals didn’t care about.
    A preposterous argument, or rather a whole bundle of them. 1. Are you giving them no credit at all for "inventing democracy" because they didn't emerge as fully fledged Guardian readers? Do you also sneer at the loser Newton because his equations break down as you approach c? 2. What evidence do you have as to how much the locals cared about the marbles? Point me to a source: primary or secondary, I don't mind. I'll assess it on its merits. Surely you wouldn't be making this claim purely at random and without evidence? 3. Even if you can make the claim good, so what? I imagine 1943 Parisians didn't care much about the arc de triomphe compared to staying alive. Would that justify the nicking of the arc de triomphe?

    Or do you just think to that a posh Scotch earl with a classical education from Harrow has more right to Greece's heritage than a bunch of Greeks?
    Do you think that Ottoman = Nazis, Greeks = French is a legitimate comparison?
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,859
    Tories urge Sunak to go for Starmer’s jugular to rescue campaign
    Ministers want PM to go on the offensive on three fronts — Starmer’s support for Corbyn, backing for a second EU referendum and career as a human rights lawyer

    https://www.thetimes.com/uk/politics/article/tories-urge-sunak-to-go-for-starmers-jugular-to-rescue-campaign-wxqcw0mvc (not paywalled, apparently)
  • DoubleDutchDoubleDutch Posts: 161
    ROD STEWART 'BOOED' BY GERMAN CROWD WHILST MAKING SHOW OF SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE

    Ever since Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine more than two years ago, Sir Rod Stewart has been outspoken in his criticism of Vladimir Putin and the war. But the singer appeared to be jeered in Leipzig for his latest tribute to Kyiv.

    https://news.sky.com/story/sir-rod-stewart-booed-by-german-crowd-while-making-show-of-support-for-ukraine-13154166
  • DoubleDutchDoubleDutch Posts: 161
    edited June 17
    Printed press front covers are having a go at Starmer today. I guess:

    1. Proprietors are getting the yips ... like Rory

    2. They don't like being side-lined from the election

    https://news.sky.com/story/thursdays-national-newspaper-front-pages-12427754
  • DoubleDutchDoubleDutch Posts: 161
    edited June 17

    Andy_JS said:

    "Theodore Dalrymple
    Labour’s Century
    The party that once sought to improve life chances in the U.K. now strives mostly to improve the lives of opportunists."

    https://www.city-journal.org/article/labours-century

    That's a great article.
    A very wordy article with a stitch-up conclusion that has no foundation in the article itself. It's just shoehorned in to try and make his own point. The analysis of Blair is one short paragraph that amounts to 'State expansion.' There is little no factual evidence given for this final paragraph:

    'One hundred years on, all that remains of the Labour Party’s social purpose are occasional outbursts of rhetoric, dishonest and insincere, unlike that of MacDonald, Wheatley, Snowden, et al. The object is not to improve anybody’s life chances but to improve the life of chancers—British English for opportunists who are always looking for dubious schemes to advance their interests or feather their nests.'

    It's a nostalgic piece of faux-history about a bygone era although it's interesting that MacDonald opposed Britain's involvement in World War One. Given what happened he was right although it's a difficult thing to write in the context of Ukraine.

    Had he stuck to the historical piece it would have been fairly decent, providing an editor had cut the waffle and reduced the word length by half.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    Heathener said:

    It's really hard to keep up with PB at the moment

    I'm working a lot, as usual, but I can normally fit in reading at least half of the comments and often all of them. At the moment I'm at about 10%, and I've missed many conversations to which I wanted to contribute

    Two that have stuck in my mind:

    Pizza Express beats the Hut without the faintest shadow of a doubt. Thin pizza is better than thick. Fresh dough is essential either way. The worst abomination on pizza isn't pineapple; it's bbq sauce. That shit should only be burnt on meat by fire, and nowhere near a pizza

    The best version on Son Of A Preacher Man is by The Gaylettes. I love both the versions by Dusty and Aretha, but neither is a party song. Reggae rhythms rule

    https://youtu.be/Gd8aBtRe6mk

    One other discussion I noted recently was bjo v Heathener on the raw numbers from whatever poll it was

    As soon as bjo mentioned the 'undecided' category I knew what he was talking about

    "Undecided 171" in the table was so obviously not seats to anyone who has ever looked at polling data beyond the headline numbers

    Is our resident guide to the nation's pulse really quite so unfamiliar with polling data as she is with QT and TTMB?
    Nah that wasn’t the point I was making. He also posted the seat numbers from the undecideds - an extrapolation that was entirely spurious. He now denies this but it’s there if you care to look back.

    But thank you for being so polite and considerate. About par for the course on this forum today which has been, at times, appallingly abusive to people.
    He really didn't. He posted the overall splits, and then the splits for Tory 2019 voters, in the same format.

    You completely misunderstood it. Everyone else can see it. And you're somehow completely incapable of admitting that you made a mistake.

    We've all misinterpreted things at first glance before. There's no shame in it. Not if you are able and willing to hold you hand up to it.
    Good morning.

    Okay I’ve re-read it and, hands up, I can accept it wasn’t seat numbers but the juxtaposition of undecideds from today’s VI to the equivalent 2019 unweighted vote sample.

    It’s still a most bizarre piece of esoteric and pseudo-psephology and if I’ve admitted mis-reading one part I won’t alter that.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084
    This is what he posted:

    Tables from Survation yesterday lot of undecideds
    Current VI
    Conservative 160
    Labour 280
    Liberal Democrat 75
    Reform UK 77
    Other 89
    Undecided 181

    Published VI Con 23 Lab 41 LD 10 Ref 12 Green 6 Others 7

    2019 GE
    Conservative 314
    Labour 265
    Liberal Democrat 81
    Green 19
    SNP 32
    Other 31


    I’m still not sure what point it’s supposed to make, except to say that there are a lot of undecideds in the current VI. But mining unweighted samples is a dangerous game for amateurs.
  • DoubleDutchDoubleDutch Posts: 161
    edited June 17
    Heathener said:

    This is what he posted:

    Tables from Survation yesterday lot of undecideds
    Current VI
    Conservative 160
    Labour 280
    Liberal Democrat 75
    Reform UK 77
    Other 89
    Undecided 181

    Published VI Con 23 Lab 41 LD 10 Ref 12 Green 6 Others 7

    2019 GE
    Conservative 314
    Labour 265
    Liberal Democrat 81
    Green 19
    SNP 32
    Other 31


    I’m still not sure what point it’s supposed to make, except to say that there are a lot of undecideds in the current VI. But mining unweighted samples is a dangerous game for amateurs.

    I don't know what point it is trying to make either and the 2019 table is what makes it confusing but well done for admitting it was not seat numbers

    Anyway, in other news, is the nation now going to be focused on the Euros? If only 3 million watched the last debate what's the betting that after Thursday's England game almost no-one will watch politics?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,044
    edited June 17

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    The point is though, that there's no 'the Democrats'. It's not like replacing a party leader in the UK; a party unseating its own sitting president isn't a few leaders deciding his time's up - it would need a broad movement across all Democrats.
    And that's pretty well impossible if you want to govern at the same time.

    Or Biden deciding to step down (which he probably ought to have done - though even that's not an easy decision).

    Once the latter didn't happen, that was pretty well it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,044
    Teachers and GPs ‘staggering’ under extra demands caused by poverty in Great Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jun/17/teachers-gps-staggering-extra-demands-poverty-great-britain

    What will happen with the welfare cuts already baked into forward fiscal planning ?
    Still going ahead, or not ?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,618

    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday

    It would be more credible if the Tories weren't planning to put up the total tax take themselves each year
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,541
    Foxy said:

    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday

    It would be more credible if the Tories weren't planning to put up the total tax take themselves each year
    It would be more credible if it were in any other medium but the Express. Including the back of a toilet door.
  • BartholomewRobertsBartholomewRoberts Posts: 21,968
    Nigelb said:

    Teachers and GPs ‘staggering’ under extra demands caused by poverty in Great Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jun/17/teachers-gps-staggering-extra-demands-poverty-great-britain

    What will happen with the welfare cuts already baked into forward fiscal planning ?
    Still going ahead, or not ?

    I well believe that about teachers and GPs, but the problem is not simply welfare, which should be no more than a safety net not a way of life.

    The best influence for children is having working parent(s) whom they see go out to work five days a week to provide for them, being a role model that working hard is important.

    The biggest problem with our welfare system is that it's a poverty trap. Once someone is relying upon welfare they face an effective tax rate of 70% to 100% on whatever they earn. So why bother working?

    We don't tax those on £125k at over 70% so why tax those on £12.5k at that.

    Fix that, and many problems in society will be alleviated.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806

    tlg86 said:

    On the subject of railway stations near to grounds, Drayton Park is in the shadow of the Emirates, but it shuts two hours before kick off (I use it after work as my routine is to go to the greasy spoon opposite the ground).

    I can understand the one near Coventry's ground being shut on matchdays (one train with one carriage an hour)..

    But Drayton Park? Ten brand new six car trains an hour run each way in peak periods with a capacity of 943 passengers each and brand new ECTS digital signalling.

    Weekends are four an hour so plenty of spare trains sitting in the depot to run four extra shuttles an hour between Moorgate and Bowes Park, near Alexandra Palace, where there is a turnback siding. Shows how the railways have lost their way.
    Aintree sets the standard for crowd management and public transport. Absolutely fantastic set up. It helps that there’s plenty of space in the station (i suppose it’s a car park?) area.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,859

    Andy_JS said:

    Going back to yesterday's MRP, it's interesting how the vote shares are Lab 40%, Con 24%, so a 16% lead gives Labour a majority of 262 seats, when a similar lead for the Tories in 1983 gave them a majority of only 144.

    It's the ratio that is important, not the difference. 40/24 is greater than 42/28.
    And, back in those days, Labour’s vote was piled up in places like Liverpool and Inner London and central Scotland. Which is a disadvantage if they were competitive with the Tories, but a defensive advantage at low share. One reason the Tories are now teetering on the edge is that they have relatively few redoubts, especially with Reform taking votes in the areas where you’d think the Tories should be safe, like Lincs.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,351
    edited June 17

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,548
    ydoethur said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
    It's the 20% who aren't that will finish Trump.

    And about 80% of independents.
  • TimS said:

    Here comes the final kitchen sink week or so of the tory campaign.

    Tax, landslide, tax, tax, landslide, trust, tax, landslide etc etc etc.





    Neil Henderson
    @hendopolis
    ·
    2m
    EXPRESS: PM: Labour will run riot with your money #TomorrowsPapersToday

    Streeting this morning gave us a taste of how Labour will attempt to combat the complacency risk.

    “Imagine waking up on the 5th of July and the Tories have landed a surprise 5th term, Sunak’s smug face as he walks back into Downing Street. Imagine how we’ll all feel”.

    I expect lots of literature will be along these lines. GOTV.
    Yep. Has to be a massive GOTV operation.
    I think the famous spitting image post 92 election cabinet meeting sketch would be nearer the mark if the Tories somehow won.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,798

    ydoethur said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
    It's the 20% who aren't that will finish Trump.

    And about 80% of independents.
    These people are not sitting on the sidelines or being ignored. They are reflected in the current polling which has Trump the comfortable winner. The 34 convictions are already priced in. They did not move the polls to any material extent. I am struggling to see what can change things. Possibly the debates but Trump is already edging away from taking part.

    The US has a terrible choice (again) between 2 senile, vain old men. One is positively malevolent and lies constantly. To us it looks obvious but quite clearly Americans are not seeing it that way.
  • Nigelb said:

    Teachers and GPs ‘staggering’ under extra demands caused by poverty in Great Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jun/17/teachers-gps-staggering-extra-demands-poverty-great-britain

    What will happen with the welfare cuts already baked into forward fiscal planning ?
    Still going ahead, or not ?

    I well believe that about teachers and GPs, but the problem is not simply welfare, which should be no more than a safety net not a way of life.

    The best influence for children is having working parent(s) whom they see go out to work five days a week to provide for them, being a role model that working hard is important.

    The biggest problem with our welfare system is that it's a poverty trap. Once someone is relying upon welfare they face an effective tax rate of 70% to 100% on whatever they earn. So why bother working?

    We don't tax those on £125k at over 70% so why tax those on £12.5k at that.

    Fix that, and many problems in society will be alleviated.
    It also incentives part time working of 16 hours a week in a dead end job then springs its ultimate poverty trap in their 40s when the kids turn 18, the child related benefits end overnight and they find themselves virtually unemployable (which also explains the rise in ESA claims of people in 40s and 50s.

    It is a disaster
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,352

    Nigelb said:

    Teachers and GPs ‘staggering’ under extra demands caused by poverty in Great Britain
    https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jun/17/teachers-gps-staggering-extra-demands-poverty-great-britain

    What will happen with the welfare cuts already baked into forward fiscal planning ?
    Still going ahead, or not ?

    I well believe that about teachers and GPs, but the problem is not simply welfare, which should be no more than a safety net not a way of life.

    The best influence for children is having working parent(s) whom they see go out to work five days a week to provide for them, being a role model that working hard is important.

    The biggest problem with our welfare system is that it's a poverty trap. Once someone is relying upon welfare they face an effective tax rate of 70% to 100% on whatever they earn. So why bother working?

    We don't tax those on £125k at over 70% so why tax those on £12.5k at that.

    Fix that, and many problems in society will be alleviated.
    I don't disagree that it's a huge problem, but how do you fix it?

    One of the reasons the universal credit withdrawal rate is so high is that Osborne salami-sliced money away. That is why IDS resigned. To reduce the marginal taxation rate on those on £12.5k to 50% would require a large increase in spending in Year One (even if you project positive behavioural effects in future years that will reduce the cost) - and as we've previously established, spending on AME has ballooned already during this period of Tory government.

    You could make it balance by massively cutting the payments received by people with no work altogether, which would be a transfer from those out of work to those in a moderate amount of work, but that would increase poverty and hardship among those out of work or working a small amount.

    Ten years ago I would certainly have said Britain should pay for a lower withdrawal rate with higher taxes elsewhere, but now I don't think that's possible. I would still increase taxes (even further) in order to increase spending in some areas, but I think my priorities for increased spending would lie elsewhere, in areas that I hope would deliver a greater return in increasing growth and tax revenue, or improving efficiency and decreasing costs.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,044
    They used to have coin operated typewriters ?

    Remington Type-O-Meter conversion No. 12, the coin-operated typewriter that Ray Bradbury used to write Fahrenheit 451 on. Late 1940’s. 20 cents an hour.
    https://x.com/vintagestuff4/status/1801822781534880007
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,548
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
    It's the 20% who aren't that will finish Trump.

    And about 80% of independents.
    These people are not sitting on the sidelines or being ignored. They are reflected in the current polling which has Trump the comfortable winner. The 34 convictions are already priced in. They did not move the polls to any material extent. I am struggling to see what can change things. Possibly the debates but Trump is already edging away from taking part.

    The US has a terrible choice (again) between 2 senile, vain old men. One is positively malevolent and lies constantly. To us it looks obvious but quite clearly Americans are not seeing it that way.
    The US economy is going like a train. Food price rises are dramatically slowing. Jobs and stock markets are at record highs. What will destroy Trump is his assertion that America is going through the worst of times. It really isn't. His entire campaign is about talking down America. From the man that would have you believe he wants to make it great again.
  • kle4 said:

    Reform UK’s parliamentary candidate in Kemi Badenoch’s constituency has resigned after it emerged he previously urged people to vote for the BNP.

    Grant StClair-Armstrong, the party’s candidate in North West Essex, told BBC News he had “never supported the BNP” and had been forced to stand down by the party.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw880334dgyo

    Never really understand these stories. He doesn't deny the message he posted saying Vote BNP and yet still denies he supported them, which is just absurd. He expresses some regret over his comments, but that's quite different to expecting people to reject the evidence before their eyes.

    Meanwhile, the party claims he resigned but he maintains he was forced to stand down, but since it's too late to remove him from the ballot the point is largely immaterial, so why did he even bother to 'stand down'? The party could certainly disavow him, but since he's rejected the official explanation from them he's essentially requiring that anyway.
    Upshot is it gives them an excuse not to stand against Badenoch.

    I suspect their candidates in the constituencies of Mogg, Bravaman etc are not doing much. It is in Reforms interest for such people to survive the massacre and as few wets as possible to escape the tumbrils.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 4,837
    edited June 17
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
    It's the 20% who aren't that will finish Trump.

    And about 80% of independents.
    These people are not sitting on the sidelines or being ignored. They are reflected in the current polling which has Trump the comfortable winner. The 34 convictions are already priced in. They did not move the polls to any material extent. I am struggling to see what can change things. Possibly the debates but Trump is already edging away from taking part.

    The US has a terrible choice (again) between 2 senile, vain old men. One is positively malevolent and lies constantly. To us it looks obvious but quite clearly Americans are not seeing it that way.
    The US and UK both have large cohorts of relatively poor and very angry voters who are willing to embrace far right conspiracist rubbish, but the States also has a widespread culture of gun violence and protestant fundamentalism which jacks the available pool of the unhinged right the way up. Hence the fact that it is still possible to shame British election candidates into stepping down when evidence of fascist sympathies is revealed, whereas in large swathes of America it would only serve to make them more attractive. Compare and contrast, if you will, Suella Braverman with Marjorie Taylor Greene.
  • EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    "Theodore Dalrymple
    Labour’s Century
    The party that once sought to improve life chances in the U.K. now strives mostly to improve the lives of opportunists."

    https://www.city-journal.org/article/labours-century

    Describing children born in 2024 as "illegitimate" is vile.
    A bit of context here. This is what the author actually wrote:

    "MacDonald was undoubtedly a remarkable man. Lenin despised him as a mere bourgeois reformist, but to be despised by Lenin was a mark of human decency. MacDonald was born in the Highlands of Scotland in 1866, the illegitimate son of a farm laborer, John MacDonald, and a housemaid...

    "It is surely a sign of moral progress that an illegitimate child is no longer blamed for his own illegitimacy; whether it is a sign of moral progress that more than half of the children now born are illegitimate is another matter."
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,209

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
    It's the 20% who aren't that will finish Trump.

    And about 80% of independents.
    These people are not sitting on the sidelines or being ignored. They are reflected in the current polling which has Trump the comfortable winner. The 34 convictions are already priced in. They did not move the polls to any material extent. I am struggling to see what can change things. Possibly the debates but Trump is already edging away from taking part.

    The US has a terrible choice (again) between 2 senile, vain old men. One is positively malevolent and lies constantly. To us it looks obvious but quite clearly Americans are not seeing it that way.
    The US economy is going like a train. Food price rises are dramatically slowing. Jobs and stock markets are at record highs. What will destroy Trump is his assertion that America is going through the worst of times. It really isn't. His entire campaign is about talking down America. From the man that would have you believe he wants to make it great again.
    That's all rational, but in a rational America Trump would have been destroyed by the events of January 2021.

    He wasn't, which makes me fear that the dynamics are awfully cult-like and that reason isn't going to shift the dial from where it is. Beyond a certain point, the absurdity of the conman's claims enhance belief, because victims are reluctant to admit how stupid or greedy or dishonest they were earlier on.

    Coughboriscough. Not as malevolent, but using the same psychologist game.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,352
    Heathener said:

    This is what he posted:

    Tables from Survation yesterday lot of undecideds
    Current VI
    Conservative 160
    Labour 280
    Liberal Democrat 75
    Reform UK 77
    Other 89
    Undecided 181

    Published VI Con 23 Lab 41 LD 10 Ref 12 Green 6 Others 7

    2019 GE
    Conservative 314
    Labour 265
    Liberal Democrat 81
    Green 19
    SNP 32
    Other 31


    I’m still not sure what point it’s supposed to make, except to say that there are a lot of undecideds in the current VI. But mining unweighted samples is a dangerous game for amateurs.

    Firstly, again, you're wrong. The first set of figures are the full weighted sample.

    If you look at the 2019GE figures you can see that the number for Labour now is only a little higher, so the only reason they poll a higher percentage is that half of the Tories have disappeared.

    I don't think all the don't knows are going to end up voting Tory, although some will, but it's an interesting little observation, even if not particularly meaningful.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,044

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
    It's the 20% who aren't that will finish Trump.

    And about 80% of independents.
    These people are not sitting on the sidelines or being ignored. They are reflected in the current polling which has Trump the comfortable winner. The 34 convictions are already priced in. They did not move the polls to any material extent. I am struggling to see what can change things. Possibly the debates but Trump is already edging away from taking part.

    The US has a terrible choice (again) between 2 senile, vain old men. One is positively malevolent and lies constantly. To us it looks obvious but quite clearly Americans are not seeing it that way.
    The US economy is going like a train. Food price rises are dramatically slowing. Jobs and stock markets are at record highs. What will destroy Trump is his assertion that America is going through the worst of times. It really isn't. His entire campaign is about talking down America. From the man that would have you believe he wants to make it great again.
    That, of course, is the other reason Biden hasn't stepped down.

    Overall, he's got a pretty good record as president. Certainly he's made significant mistakes (though which president didn't ?), but it's hard to see - particularly given the wafer thin Congressional majority in the first half of his term - anyone else having done much better.

    The classic illustration of that is all the GOP politicians now taking credit for his programs which almost all of them voted against.
  • DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Harry Cole is utterly obsessed with Biden apparently being doddery.

    Ok son, don't take the absolute piss. Biden still being able to go to the loo independently might still be somewhat debatable - Biden being 'doddery' stopped being an 'apparently' about 4 years ago.
    Interesting you mentioned incontinence. The Lincoln Project recently released a video called "Trump Diapers". The allusion was that Trump needed such assistance in that department.
    That's fairly loathsome, and so are accounts that take a ghoulish delight in Biden's misfortunes. However, let's be honest, he did not stride over to the parachutist to engage him in witty repartee, he took a doddery wander over toward him and needed to be rescued. It was doddery. It perhaps was nicely and quaintly doddery, rather than burly men armed with horse tranquliser doddery, but ain't nobody trying to say it wasn't doddery (I hope).
    Aren't you the plane crash conspiracy nut?
    That's very strange comment. Are you trying to suggest somehow that see a video of an elderly man being doddery and saying he's being doddery in it is a conspiracy theory?
    I think he's old and old people are doddery. Does that make him unsuitable for office? Based on his actions as President, no.

    You pretend normal things are signs of it. They aren't.

    Now Trump actually has dementia. But nothing from that, so I said are you the plane conspiracy nut because you seem to enjoy conspiracy theories.
    I always hark back to the two men who led the Western Allies in WW2. Roosevelt was terribly ill throughout much of his last term in office and actually died in office before the war ended. Churchill was also in terrible health, a functioning alcoholic and supposedly had a heart attack the night after his speech to Congress in 1941.
    I would much rather Biden wasn't leading the Democrats but the reality is that he's the only candidate to ever actually beat Trump. Does anyone think a challenger would do better, really?
    Actually yes. Biden should be miles ahead against rump but the fears over his health and faculties do cut through. I am not sure I agree with them but the idea they are not seriously hampering the Democrats is just not sustainable.

    There are plenty of younger candidates who would have a reasonable chance against the convicted felon and I think they need to consider them. Though right now may be a few months too late.

    If Trump does win it will be in large part due to the fact the Democrats didn't take action sooner and replace Biden.
    Who are these people?
    Whitmer, Shapiro, Buttigieg. To name three.
    Not sure about Shapiro(!) but Beshear (seemingly not interested right now) Newsom and Ossoff would be on the list too.

    The truth is, Trump is such a weak candidate now that it's hard to imagine him winning at all, against anyone, if he were coming in new. It's only because he's been President before that he's in contention.

    Thanks Hilary Clinton for your sense of entitlement and utter ineptitude.

    Thanks Barack Obama for surrounding yourself with people who were elderly rather than bringing through younger talent.

    But most of all, thanks to 80% of Republicans for being fucking lunatics.
    It's the 20% who aren't that will finish Trump.

    And about 80% of independents.
    These people are not sitting on the sidelines or being ignored. They are reflected in the current polling which has Trump the comfortable winner. The 34 convictions are already priced in. They did not move the polls to any material extent. I am struggling to see what can change things. Possibly the debates but Trump is already edging away from taking part.

    The US has a terrible choice (again) between 2 senile, vain old men. One is positively malevolent and lies constantly. To us it looks obvious but quite clearly Americans are not seeing it that way.
    The US economy is going like a train. Food price rises are dramatically slowing. Jobs and stock markets are at record highs. What will destroy Trump is his assertion that America is going through the worst of times. It really isn't. His entire campaign is about talking down America. From the man that would have you believe he wants to make it great again.
    That's all rational, but in a rational America Trump would have been destroyed by the events of January 2021.

    He wasn't, which makes me fear that the dynamics are awfully cult-like and that reason isn't going to shift the dial from where it is. Beyond a certain point, the absurdity of the conman's claims enhance belief, because victims are reluctant to admit how stupid or greedy or dishonest they were earlier on.

    Coughboriscough. Not as malevolent, but using the same psychologist game.
    In a rational America, the Democratic Party in various large cities would not be implementing policies that even Red Ted Knight in his loony Lambeth heydey would have thought might be going a little too far.
This discussion has been closed.