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Survation is great for Lab and the SNP but awful for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Absolute nonsense comment.
    What was the turnout in the 2019 Euros?
    And how many of those 30% were “Get Brexit Done” Tories?
    Ok, if you reject that precedent, he got almost 4m votes in 2015 when up against Cameron in his prime. I find it difficult to believe he won't outperform numbers like that this time around.
    That was Farage's 7th FPTP failure as I recall, and the only one elected for UKIP was Carswell who had brought a good number of activists over with him from the Cons and had an established network in the constituency.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298
    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,522

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    The Tories don't appear to be door-knocking in Didcot and Wantage - they have AFAIK precisely zero posters up. But nor are Reform. The latest Survation poll shows it as a 3-cornered marginal with Labour fractionally ahead, the LibDems second and Reform down on 10%, which is also our local view. People who care about Europe in Didcot tend to be pro-EU.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    edited June 15

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    I don't know. The Tories have managed to burn so much of their brand. They have pissed off left wing people, right wing people and centrists. They are openly laughed at, rather than begrudgingly respected. The forgiving quality for many voters has always been well I don't like some of the baby eating, the sleaze, etc, but the policies are serious and grown up.

    However, the manifesto isn't serious, its a total shit show. Their leader is rubbish at politics, but they are running a campaign like he has Obama levels of popularity.

    I am not sure they could do much worse if they tried. I might say they catch Sunak saying Hitler wasn't a bad bloke after all, but that would probably steal some Reform UK vote.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,411
    TimS said:

    TimS said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    HYUFD said:

    Some good news for Tory snobs with Survation MRP. Even though the Rishi led Tory party is projected to lose every redwall seat Boris won in 2019 and plenty more leave marginals besides it is forecast to hold Chelsea and Fulham, with 38% for Greg Hands to 36.7% for Labour and 11% for the LDs.

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/

    Farage is useful for blue wall and London Tories because he makes them seem relatively moderate and votable. The excuse many were waiting for.
    What part of the Reform platform is extreme?
    Admiring Putin
    Wanting net zero immigration
    Wanting to slash taxes while increasing spending and therefore bankrupting the country
    Thinking we should have made peace with Hitler in 1939

    You seem to be planning to vote for them. Good luck with that.
    Excepting Net Zero immigration, which I think you'll find fairly widespread support for, are any of those part of the platform?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,298

    TimS said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    HYUFD said:

    Some good news for Tory snobs with Survation MRP. Even though the Rishi led Tory party is projected to lose every redwall seat Boris won in 2019 and plenty more leave marginals besides it is forecast to hold Chelsea and Fulham, with 38% for Greg Hands to 36.7% for Labour and 11% for the LDs.

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/

    Farage is useful for blue wall and London Tories because he makes them seem relatively moderate and votable. The excuse many were waiting for.
    What part of the Reform platform is extreme?
    Answering my own question, the exteme part used to be that he wanted to leave the EU, but it's no longer possible to paint that as extreme because it's the accepted position of the major parties.

    It's much harder to attack him on domestic policies when a lot of his positions are popular.
    How about his weird links with Vlad Putin and Julian Assange. How about the fact that Reform seems to be some kind of weird Farage trust fund masquerading as a political party? How about the fact that 1/3 of Reform candidates follow far-right figures on X?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    This is also the first major election where Farage will be a general-purpose populist rather than a single-issue Eurosceptic candidate. That pushes his theoretical ceiling much higher.

    But it also exposes him to far more scrutiny on a wider range of issues. Being a single issue campaigner in a single issue campaign is not difficult. Doing it in a general election when everything is up for debate and where you personally are being scrutinised rather than just the single issue is a far more demanding and is not a position I think he is suited to.
    Also, it was possible to support UKIP on a "don't like him or what he might do with power, but I do want Britain out of the EU" basis. With the Brexit Party, there was also the "good grief, they're taking the mickey in Westminster" factor.

    Now, he's got a platform and people can either support it or oppose it. And whilst some people clearly do support it, it's currently not enough to trouble the scorers much in FPTP. Neither does it mean that he would bring much to a RefCon union.

    (RefCon have totalled about 30-35 percent fairly steadily through the Rishi years. Put them in one party and it would add up to less- both some relative wets and some hard reformers wouldn't want anything to do with that. Besides, even 35 percent isn't a winning score.)
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    Roger said:

    Just heard the English football fans chant to the French

    "You're shit but your girls are fit..."

    They did this they the swedes and got the response "go home to your ugly wives.."

    https://x.com/JuliaHB1/status/1015687307578544132?t=2X5UFV4wQBoQ7VHLvnYY4A&s=19
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 28,411

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    I'd love to see a liberal opposition - what's that got to do with Ed Davey?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,590
    Foxy said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Absolute nonsense comment.
    What was the turnout in the 2019 Euros?
    And how many of those 30% were “Get Brexit Done” Tories?
    Ok, if you reject that precedent, he got almost 4m votes in 2015 when up against Cameron in his prime. I find it difficult to believe he won't outperform numbers like that this time around.
    That was Farage's 7th FPTP failure as I recall, and the only one elected for UKIP was Carswell who had brought a good number of activists over with him from the Cons and had an established network in the constituency.
    The framing now is completely different.

    Then it was: sensible Tory vs nutter who wants to leave the EU

    Now it is: pointless Tory vs populist who wants to give the establishment an electoral kicking

    Farage has never been in the electoral sweet spot like this before.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375

    This is also the first major election where Farage will be a general-purpose populist rather than a single-issue Eurosceptic candidate. That pushes his theoretical ceiling much higher.

    He's still a single issue candidate though. Immigration generally, rather than Brexit in particular.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,874
    edited June 15

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    Except the LD manifesto was more social democracy Charles Kennedy style than dry as dust centre right Orange Bookism.

    There is no point having a social democratic LD main opposition to a social democratic Labour government led by Starmer.

    So I suspect the Tories will hold on as main opposition on seats as well as votes as almost all the latest polls now suggest
  • PedestrianRockPedestrianRock Posts: 580
    A lot of people on here confident that the Tories will outperform expectations and end up on 150-200 seats.

    I notice 150-200 is 10.0 on BF Exchange and 200-250 is 50.0.

    Surely some of you bullish on the Tories should go for that?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,590
    edited June 15

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    I don't know. The Tories have managed to burn so much of their brand. They have pissed off left wing people, right wing people and centrists. They are openly laughed at, rather than feared. Their manifesto is a total shit show. Their leader is rubbish at politics, but they are running a campaign like he has Obama levels of popularity.
    I seriously think Rishi has been told to “step away” to stabilise Tory support.

    The running gag on “Some Mothers Do ‘Ave ‘Em” was that Frank Spencer would try a new job every week - with catastrophic effects. That’s basically Rishi Sunak as campaigning Prime Minister.

    “Ooh Betty, the shih-tzu’s done a woopsie on the Rothko”.
    Some Mother-in-Laws do 'Ave 'Em

    It could be a hit sitcom about a billionaire heiress whose son-in-law is desperate to impress her but always ends up making a mess.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,887

    HYUFD said:

    Shocked at how ill King Charles looked at the Trooping of the Colour.

    I really do wonder now if Sunak was briefed on his condition - and decided he had no choice but to go for an earlier election than one later in the year that might have had a period of official mourning in the middle of it. It would explain much, particularly why the Cabinet weren't party to that decision.

    No he called the general election as Braverman and co were near to the numbers needed for a VONC.

    The King looked OK to me, pleased the Princess of Wales looked even better as this was her first public appearance in months.

    Most with pancreatic cancer, the worst case cancer he may have, are dead within a year so hopefully it is not that. If it is at least the Wales' are united again and William now seems ready to take the throne if the worst happens. Camilla could be Queen Step Mother and retire to Highgrove.

    Hopefully though Charles has many more years left as King and with the Queen
    When I was being treated for leukaemia but in remission I visited my Mother in law to do some decorating. Neighbours called in and after I had left commented to her about how I’ll I looked. I really didn’t - I was perfectly fine at that point, with no trace of disease. I think they were projecting because they knew I was in treatment etc.
    I think Charles looks fine. He’s 75, not 45.
    Can I ask which type you have/had?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    edited June 15

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    I don't know. The Tories have managed to burn so much of their brand. They have pissed off left wing people, right wing people and centrists. They are openly laughed at, rather than feared. Their manifesto is a total shit show. Their leader is rubbish at politics, but they are running a campaign like he has Obama levels of popularity.
    I seriously think Rishi has been told to “step away” to stabilise Tory support.

    The running gag on “Some Mothers Do ‘Ave ‘Em” was that Frank Spencer would try a new job every week - with catastrophic effects. That’s basically Rishi Sunak as campaigning Prime Minister.

    “Ooh Betty, the shih-tzu’s done a woopsie on the Rothko”.
    Interesting to see if it works. He cannot hide away for long, and for the moment circa 100 looks more likely than anything higher than that, unless going for a 'well, the polls just feel wrong' scenario.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508

    This is also the first major election where Farage will be a general-purpose populist rather than a single-issue Eurosceptic candidate. That pushes his theoretical ceiling much higher.

    But it also exposes him to far more scrutiny on a wider range of issues. Being a single issue campaigner in a single issue campaign is not difficult. Doing it in a general election when everything is up for debate and where you personally are being scrutinised rather than just the single issue is a far more demanding and is not a position I think he is suited to.
    Also, it was possible to support UKIP on a "don't like him or what he might do with power, but I do want Britain out of the EU" basis. With the Brexit Party, there was also the "good grief, they're taking the mickey in Westminster" factor.

    Now, he's got a platform and people can either support it or oppose it. And whilst some people clearly do support it, it's currently not enough to trouble the scorers much in FPTP. Neither does it mean that he would bring much to a RefCon union.

    (RefCon have totalled about 30-35 percent fairly steadily through the Rishi years. Put them in one party and it would add up to less- both some relative wets and some hard reformers wouldn't want anything to do with that. Besides, even 35 percent isn't a winning score.)
    Whilst I agree with you about current Tory/Reform prospects, it is worth pointing out that Blair won a 62 seat majority with 35.2% of the vote in 2005. It does depend a lot on the state of the other parties at the time.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060
    DavidL said:

    Up to 400 Russian soldiers reported surrendering after an aggregate plant in Vovchansk was surrounded by Ukrainan troops.

    There have been more than a few hints that the wheels are starting to come off for Russia once again as their attacks peter out and the ammunition flow to Ukraine increases once again. We are getting more stories of Ukrainian counter attacks and far fewer of lost villages.

    One of the famous signals from the US Marines in the Korean war was: "The enemy are in front of us, behind us and on both sides. They won't get away this time."

    Sounds like the Russians had a different view.
    @DavidL “Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch, when he held firm to prevent the French Army being overrun at the first battle of the Marne, 5 and 12 September 1914
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,207

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    See what you think when you've had your sniff. 1997 has been my base map for a while- but that's gone from "not quite as bad as 1997" early in the year to "quite a bit worse than 1997" now. Rishi really is that awful.

    And even if Farage can't win himself, he can destroy the Conservatives. But destruction is always the easy bit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    This is also the first major election where Farage will be a general-purpose populist rather than a single-issue Eurosceptic candidate. That pushes his theoretical ceiling much higher.

    He's still a single issue candidate though. Immigration generally, rather than Brexit in particular.
    He's two issues - immigration, and 'do you not like Labour/LDs but are disgusted/disappointed in the Tories?'

    Seems worth a solid 10-15% to me.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541

    Seats Reform win according to the MRP

    Ashfield

    Clacton

    Exmouth & Exeter East

    Great Yarmouth

    Mid Leicestershire

    North West Norfolk

    South Suffolk

    Very surprised by Mid Leicestershire. That's mostly the former Charnwood seat, which has quite a high Asian population.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    See what you think when you've had your sniff. 1997 has been my base map for a while- but that's gone from "not quite as bad as 1997" early in the year to "quite a bit worse than 1997" now. Rishi really is that awful.
    That's basically where I've transitioned from. I even started the GE campaign assuming around 150 was the lower end, 1997 levels, but boy that start was dreadul, and it's not gotten better.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    edited June 15

    Sadly I think the Tories will outperform these doom scenarios. 150 is my median expectation.

    It’s a shame, because I’d LOVE to see the Ed Davey shadow frontbench in action. Can you imagine - a sustained LIBERAL opposition to the overweening Starmerite Five Year Plan?

    See what you think when you've had your sniff. 1997 has been my base map for a while- but that's gone from "not quite as bad as 1997" early in the year to "quite a bit worse than 1997" now. Rishi really is that awful.

    And even if Farage can't win himself, he can destroy the Conservatives. But destruction is always the easy bit.
    The Tories have a decent start to their campaign, I don't think we get Farage, then its probably in 1997 territory as the disgruntled Tory vote dons the trademarked Poly nose peg come election day.

    Its quite a spectacular omnishambles from the Tories.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    edited June 15
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    If Bairstow or Brook had got out early as well, England could have been in a world of trouble. Why no Jacks is just bizarre.

    Not as bizarre as no Wood. He would have scared their batsmen on this pitch.
    I guess they were worried about going for lots of runs. But yes, the thing that players who are lesser can't cope is insane pace. There is just a massive difference between 80-85, then getting between 85-90, and then the insanity of 95.

    I found this out myself. I faced 80-85 most weekends and was ok. On rare occasion, I faced 85-90, and was in a world of hurt. I don't even want to think about 95.
    There's a story about when Hank Aaron was asked to help with some coaching of an exceptional young minor league hitter who had really struggled when called up to the Majors at the Braves' preseason camp.
    He patiently explained how you could watch each of the various 95mph + pitchers and pick up where the fingers were positioned and which way the ball was rotating, at what speed, and how you should adjust your shoulders, stance and swing in response, depending on whether you wanted to make a base hit or saw a chance of a possible home run. And how you could just know it would be a ball safely left.
    "Does that answer your questions?" he said.
    "Not really. How do you see the fucking ball?" was
    the reply.
    Hank never coached.
    They did some experiments where they strapped cameras to different ability players helmets for cricket. The "watch the ball" is nonsense when you reach these speeds, they found the elite players watch the release point and immediately their eyes moves to where the ball will pitch. The difference is they are right most of the time, other lesser players guesses are off even after using bowling machines.

    And the pros definitely aren't "watching it onto the bat". They watch release, move head / body to best play where it will pitch, play shot. It is why all these change-ups (borrowed from baseball) are effective, it totally messes with their learned behaviour. Benny Howell has become a highly effective cricketer in T20 because he has mastered all these change of pace deliveries.

    For baseball, there have been funny experiments where they have got major league batters to try to hit slower pitches and they really struggle, because again all their training / experience doesn't marry with what they are used to. Obviously after a short while they can adjust, but initially it is really hard for them. Its why the knuckle ball pitcher was popular for a while, despite throwing at such slow speeds.
    Strangely. This is reminiscent of a little PB conversation I had about a week ago about graduates in teaching. And about SEN kids outside even special schools, and working in PRU's.
    Am constantly asked by my colleagues how I manage it. How I maintain total calm in the face of horrific behaviour and exceptional panic
    attacks. Whilst being hit, kicked and bitten. How I keep them safe while they are standing on a railway bridge or platform threatening to chuck themselves off. In a state of no thought. No anxiety. No worry. Even when I'm physically blocking them from a moving InterCity. And then re establish a positive relationship with the child inside an hour.
    We laugh uproariously about it. And move on.
    The truthful answer is I don't know. Have been asked to train people up. I wouldn't know how to.
    I do know my possession of an honours degree from a Russell Group University is fuck all use in that moment.
    Nor did anyone teach me this.
    I'm a spectacularly useless classroom teacher of compliant kids who want to learn. I can't transmit knowledge. I'm not interesting.
    But I can get a knife off a dysregulated kid better than anyone I've ever seen.
    Because it's an art, not a Science.
    Find out what you're good at and lean in to it.
    Been offered a new contract, but will find out Friday where I am deployed. Suspect I will be moved (I'm paid too much to be "wasted" on this).
    Probably they'll want me to teach A level.
    I'll have to hand in my notice. They've expelled my three favourite kids.
    Sorry for burdening you with the bit which really does cause me anxiety.
    I'm a little unusual.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    If Bairstow or Brook had got out early as well, England could have been in a world of trouble. Why no Jacks is just bizarre.

    Not as bizarre as no Wood. He would have scared their batsmen on this pitch.
    I guess they were worried about going for lots of runs. But yes, the thing that players who are lesser can't cope is insane pace. There is just a massive difference between 80-85, then getting between 85-90, and then the insanity of 95.

    I found this out myself. I faced 80-85 most weekends and was ok. On rare occasion, I faced 85-90, and was in a world of hurt. I don't even want to think about 95.
    There's a story about when Hank Aaron was asked to help with some coaching of an exceptional young minor league hitter who had really struggled when called up to the Majors at the Braves' preseason camp.
    He patiently explained how you could watch each of the various 95mph + pitchers and pick up where the fingers were positioned and which way the ball was rotating, at what speed, and how you should adjust your shoulders, stance and swing in response, depending on whether you wanted to make a base hit or saw a chance of a possible home run. And how you could just know it would be a ball safely left.
    "Does that answer your questions?" he said.
    "Not really. How do you see the fucking ball?" was
    the reply.
    Hank never coached.
    They did some experiments where they strapped cameras to different ability players helmets for cricket. The "watch the ball" is nonsense when you reach these speeds, they found the elite players watch the release point and immediately their eyes moves to where the ball will pitch. The difference is they are right most of the time, other lesser players guesses are off even after using bowling machines.

    And the pros definitely aren't "watching it onto the bat". They watch release, move head / body to best play where it will pitch, play shot. It is why all these change-ups (borrowed from baseball) are effective, it totally messes with their learned behaviour. Benny Howell has become a highly effective cricketer in T20 because he has mastered all these change of pace deliveries.

    For baseball, there have been funny experiments where they have got major league batters to try to hit slower pitches and they really struggle, because again all their training / experience doesn't marry with what they are used to. Obviously after a short while they can adjust, but initially it is really hard for them. Its why the knuckle ball pitcher was popular for a while, despite throwing at such slow speeds.
    Strangely. This is reminiscent of a little PB conversation I had about a week ago about graduates in teaching. And about SEN kids outside even special schools, and working in PRU's.
    Am constantly asked by my colleagues how I manage it. How I maintain total calm in the face of horrific behaviour and exceptional panic
    attacks. Whilst being hit, kicked and bitten. How I keep them safe while they are standing on a railway bridge or platform threatening to chuck themselves off. In a state of no thought. No anxiety. No worry. Even when I'm physically blocking them from a moving InterCity. And then re establish a positive relationship with the child inside an hour.
    We laugh uproariously about it. And move on.
    The truthful answer is I don't know. Have been asked to train people up. I wouldn't know how to.
    I do know my possession of an honours degree from a Russell Group University is fuck all use in that moment.
    Nor did anyone teach me this.
    I'm a spectacularly useless classroom teacher of compliant kids who want to learn. I can't transmit knowledge. I'm not interesting.
    But I can get a knife off a dysregulated kid better than anyone I've ever seen.
    Because it's an art, not a Science.
    Find out what you're good at and lean in to it.
    You have my admiration sir. My oldest friend and godfather to my kids won Special Needs Teacher of the Year for working with EBD kids about 15 years ago and the stories from him are horrendous. Not a job I could ever do.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,651
    Andy_JS said:

    Seats Reform win according to the MRP

    Ashfield

    Clacton

    Exmouth & Exeter East

    Great Yarmouth

    Mid Leicestershire

    North West Norfolk

    South Suffolk

    Very surprised by Mid Leicestershire. That's mostly the former Charnwood seat, which has quite a high Asian population.
    I think that one in particular is inexplicable.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Roger said:

    Just heard the English football fans chant to the French

    "You're shit but your girls are fit..."

    Actually quite witty. Better than some of the more ‘traditional’ England songs as least
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,112

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Surely it depends on the odds?

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,112

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794

    A lot of people on here confident that the Tories will outperform expectations and end up on 150-200 seats.

    I notice 150-200 is 10.0 on BF Exchange and 200-250 is 50.0.

    Surely some of you bullish on the Tories should go for that?

    When they don't, the term that comes to mind is "revealed preferences" :D

    I do think any serious punter needs to take into account that this is a much harder election to poll than normal. Look at the raw numbers (where available) and test out a few assumptions yourself.

    And certain scenarios could be crazily volatile. The one @williamglenn posted here: https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4836590#Comment_4836590

    Would be orgasmic for trading. Market maker's dream. If it came to pass...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060

    A lot of people on here confident that the Tories will outperform expectations and end up on 150-200 seats.

    I notice 150-200 is 10.0 on BF Exchange and 200-250 is 50.0.

    Surely some of you bullish on the Tories should go for that?

    It's not a bad idea. What we really need is an Andy_JS spreadsheet. Andy, will you be pulling together a spreadsheet for break-even in-time for election night 2024?
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794
    viewcode said:

    A lot of people on here confident that the Tories will outperform expectations and end up on 150-200 seats.

    I notice 150-200 is 10.0 on BF Exchange and 200-250 is 50.0.

    Surely some of you bullish on the Tories should go for that?

    It's not a bad idea. What we really need is an Andy_JS spreadsheet. Andy, will you be pulling together a spreadsheet for break-even in-time for election night 2024?
    That Brexit one made me sooooooooooooooo much money.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,937

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Sunak is the classic MBA*. No real world experience. Overconfident, underqualified, understanding every number on the spreadsheet but no real idea how those numbers affect people in real life.

    Sunak has no feel for people, hence his D Day gaffe. It simply wasn't important to him, because he put in what he thought was the required number of hours then went off to do something else. Maximising efficiency, and all that.

    *I may have one of those myself, so I know of what I speak.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    edited June 15
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
    Isn't McKinsey a place where no promotion to the partnership track you are pretty quickly a gonna? There no real hanging around in the same job for very long as plenty of other bright young things joining.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,112
    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    Ground game has basically been negated by social media.
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    Physical presence still matters, and that covers a panoply of things from councillors, to stalls in the High Street, to posters in windows, and even to tellers at polling stations.

  • bigglesbiggles Posts: 6,046
    edited June 15
    A thought. Would sub-200 seats and a lot of official opposition status make the Tories more likely to want a leader in the Lords? Take the opposition fight there and hope Starmer gets unpopular enough quickly enough you can claim to represent “the people”? Perhaps Cameron would see a role for himself?

    Don’t see it as likely mind. He doesn’t seem the sort to fancy any hard work.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    Leon said:

    Is this another one?


    📊 Labour lead at 17pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 40% (-2)
    CON: 23% (-1)
    REF: 14% (+2)
    LDEM: 12% (+2)
    GRN: 7% (-)


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1802053514379546632?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Looks like Labour really are going to get less than 40%.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,112

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
    Isn't McKinsey a place where no promotion to the partnership track you are pretty quickly a gonna? There no real hanging around in the same job for very long.
    You get 4 to 5 years of working 16 hour days, and then you are gently encouraged to depart.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Seats Reform win according to the MRP

    Ashfield

    Clacton

    Exmouth & Exeter East

    Great Yarmouth

    Mid Leicestershire

    North West Norfolk

    South Suffolk

    Very surprised by Mid Leicestershire. That's mostly the former Charnwood seat, which has quite a high Asian population.
    I think that one in particular is inexplicable.
    I misread it initially as NW Leicestershire, Andrew Bridgen's former seat, which would make a lot more sense.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 8,375
    edited June 15
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    Ground game has basically been negated by social media.
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    Physical presence still matters, and that covers a panoply of things from councillors, to stalls in the High Street, to posters in windows, and even to tellers at polling stations.

    And also turnout. Ground game may not count for that much any more in persuading voters to vote for you, but it still counts, especially but not only on election day, in getting your voters to actually vote. Still pretty important, IMO.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    edited June 15
    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    Ground game has basically been negated by social media.
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    Physical presence still matters, and that covers a panoply of things from councillors, to stalls in the High Street, to posters in windows, and even to tellers at polling stations.

    I think it matters more for low turnout elections or minor areas (eg a council election), but for the rest I think activists are fooling themselves. It's a way of maintaining morale and engaging the members, but greater impact than social media and the news cycle? No. Things have moved on, but the party establishments and core members don't want to believe that could be true.

    I don't think it has no impact whatsoever, but I think it is fairly minimal, and most areas do not even get the kind of concerted, targeted effort that might conceivably make a difference at the margins, so even if it really does have more impact than I think it is not universal in any case.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    If Bairstow or Brook had got out early as well, England could have been in a world of trouble. Why no Jacks is just bizarre.

    Not as bizarre as no Wood. He would have scared their batsmen on this pitch.
    I guess they were worried about going for lots of runs. But yes, the thing that players who are lesser can't cope is insane pace. There is just a massive difference between 80-85, then getting between 85-90, and then the insanity of 95.

    I found this out myself. I faced 80-85 most weekends and was ok. On rare occasion, I faced 85-90, and was in a world of hurt. I don't even want to think about 95.
    There's a story about when Hank Aaron was asked to help with some coaching of an exceptional young minor league hitter who had really struggled when called up to the Majors at the Braves' preseason camp.
    He patiently explained how you could watch each of the various 95mph + pitchers and pick up where the fingers were positioned and which way the ball was rotating, at what speed, and how you should adjust your shoulders, stance and swing in response, depending on whether you wanted to make a base hit or saw a chance of a possible home run. And how you could just know it would be a ball safely left.
    "Does that answer your questions?" he said.
    "Not really. How do you see the fucking ball?" was
    the reply.
    Hank never coached.
    They did some experiments where they strapped cameras to different ability players helmets for cricket. The "watch the ball" is nonsense when you reach these speeds, they found the elite players watch the release point and immediately their eyes moves to where the ball will pitch. The difference is they are right most of the time, other lesser players guesses are off even after using bowling machines.

    And the pros definitely aren't "watching it onto the bat". They watch release, move head / body to best play where it will pitch, play shot. It is why all these change-ups (borrowed from baseball) are effective, it totally messes with their learned behaviour. Benny Howell has become a highly effective cricketer in T20 because he has mastered all these change of pace deliveries.

    For baseball, there have been funny experiments where they have got major league batters to try to hit slower pitches and they really struggle, because again all their training / experience doesn't marry with what they are used to. Obviously after a short while they can adjust, but initially it is really hard for them. Its why the knuckle ball pitcher was popular for a while, despite throwing at such slow speeds.
    Strangely. This is reminiscent of a little PB conversation I had about a week ago about graduates in teaching. And about SEN kids outside even special schools, and working in PRU's.
    Am constantly asked by my colleagues how I manage it. How I maintain total calm in the face of horrific behaviour and exceptional panic
    attacks. Whilst being hit, kicked and bitten. How I keep them safe while they are standing on a railway bridge or platform threatening to chuck themselves off. In a state of no thought. No anxiety. No worry. Even when I'm physically blocking them from a moving InterCity. And then re establish a positive relationship with the child inside an hour.
    We laugh uproariously about it. And move on.
    The truthful answer is I don't know. Have been asked to train people up. I wouldn't know how to.
    I do know my possession of an honours degree from a Russell Group University is fuck all use in that moment.
    Nor did anyone teach me this.
    I'm a spectacularly useless classroom teacher of compliant kids who want to learn. I can't transmit knowledge. I'm not interesting.
    But I can get a knife off a dysregulated kid better than anyone I've ever seen.
    Because it's an art, not a Science.
    Find out what you're good at and lean in to it.
    You have my admiration sir. My oldest friend and godfather to my kids won Special Needs Teacher of the Year for working with EBD kids about 15 years ago and the stories from him are horrendous. Not a job I could ever do.
    Thanks. That's really kind of you.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    edited June 15
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
    Isn't McKinsey a place where no promotion to the partnership track you are pretty quickly a gonna? There no real hanging around in the same job for very long.
    You get 4 to 5 years of working 16 hour days, and then you are gently encouraged to depart.
    That's more forgiving than i thought. Amazon its more like Wipeout game show, only 1 in a load even make the 4 year mark. At every stage there is new dicey obstacle ready for a Ed Davey to fall off.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Is this another one?


    📊 Labour lead at 17pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 40% (-2)
    CON: 23% (-1)
    REF: 14% (+2)
    LDEM: 12% (+2)
    GRN: 7% (-)


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1802053514379546632?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Looks like Labour really are going to get less than 40%.
    It's the gap that matters. Somehow I think they'll survive the disappointment if they get 40 or just below.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,112

    Foxy said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Absolute nonsense comment.
    What was the turnout in the 2019 Euros?
    And how many of those 30% were “Get Brexit Done” Tories?
    Ok, if you reject that precedent, he got almost 4m votes in 2015 when up against Cameron in his prime. I find it difficult to believe he won't outperform numbers like that this time around.
    That was Farage's 7th FPTP failure as I recall, and the only one elected for UKIP was Carswell who had brought a good number of activists over with him from the Cons and had an established network in the constituency.
    The framing now is completely different.

    Then it was: sensible Tory vs nutter who wants to leave the EU

    Now it is: pointless Tory vs populist who wants to give the establishment an electoral kicking

    Farage has never been in the electoral sweet spot like this before.
    Sure, but Farage also suffers from being loathed by a section of the population, which is why I think @Heathener's description of him as Corbyn-like is so accurate.

  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    Betfair Exchange, Lab share

    38-39.99 -> 4.6
    40-41.99 -> 5.2
    42-43.99 -> 5.9

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.223276482
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,937

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
    Isn't McKinsey a place where no promotion to the partnership track you are pretty quickly a gonna? There no real hanging around in the same job for very long.
    You get 4 to 5 years of working 16 hour days, and then you are gently encouraged to depart.
    That's more forgiving than i thought. Amazon its more like Wipeout game show, only 1 in a load even make the 4 year mark. At every stage there is new dicey obstacle ready for a Ed Davey to fall off.
    And yet HR managers ask you 'why did you leave your last company after a year?' As if you're expected to show loyalty to them when no employer shows loyalty to you.

    'Welcome to our family,' they say, when hiring you.
    'It's not personal, it's just business' in the round of layoffs next year.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    edited June 15
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Absolute nonsense comment.
    What was the turnout in the 2019 Euros?
    And how many of those 30% were “Get Brexit Done” Tories?
    Ok, if you reject that precedent, he got almost 4m votes in 2015 when up against Cameron in his prime. I find it difficult to believe he won't outperform numbers like that this time around.
    That was Farage's 7th FPTP failure as I recall, and the only one elected for UKIP was Carswell who had brought a good number of activists over with him from the Cons and had an established network in the constituency.
    The framing now is completely different.

    Then it was: sensible Tory vs nutter who wants to leave the EU

    Now it is: pointless Tory vs populist who wants to give the establishment an electoral kicking

    Farage has never been in the electoral sweet spot like this before.
    Sure, but Farage also suffers from being loathed by a section of the population, which is why I think @Heathener's description of him as Corbyn-like is so accurate.

    The question is, is it 2017 magic grandpa "ohhhhh Jereeemmmmy" Corbyn or 2019 damaged good antisemitic enabler Corbyn.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    viewcode said:

    A lot of people on here confident that the Tories will outperform expectations and end up on 150-200 seats.

    I notice 150-200 is 10.0 on BF Exchange and 200-250 is 50.0.

    Surely some of you bullish on the Tories should go for that?

    It's not a bad idea. What we really need is an Andy_JS spreadsheet. Andy, will you be pulling together a spreadsheet for break-even in-time for election night 2024?
    I’ll probably take a look at the Tory seats market tomorrow. There could be some value there by the sounds of it
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 4,569
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    If Bairstow or Brook had got out early as well, England could have been in a world of trouble. Why no Jacks is just bizarre.

    Not as bizarre as no Wood. He would have scared their batsmen on this pitch.
    I guess they were worried about going for lots of runs. But yes, the thing that players who are lesser can't cope is insane pace. There is just a massive difference between 80-85, then getting between 85-90, and then the insanity of 95.

    I found this out myself. I faced 80-85 most weekends and was ok. On rare occasion, I faced 85-90, and was in a world of hurt. I don't even want to think about 95.
    There's a story about when Hank Aaron was asked to help with some coaching of an exceptional young minor league hitter who had really struggled when called up to the Majors at the Braves' preseason camp.
    He patiently explained how you could watch each of the various 95mph + pitchers and pick up where the fingers were positioned and which way the ball was rotating, at what speed, and how you should adjust your shoulders, stance and swing in response, depending on whether you wanted to make a base hit or saw a chance of a possible home run. And how you could just know it would be a ball safely left.
    "Does that answer your questions?" he said.
    "Not really. How do you see the fucking ball?" was
    the reply.
    Hank never coached.
    They did some experiments where they strapped cameras to different ability players helmets for cricket. The "watch the ball" is nonsense when you reach these speeds, they found the elite players watch the release point and immediately their eyes moves to where the ball will pitch. The difference is they are right most of the time, other lesser players guesses are off even after using bowling machines.

    And the pros definitely aren't "watching it onto the bat". They watch release, move head / body to best play where it will pitch, play shot. It is why all these change-ups (borrowed from baseball) are effective, it totally messes with their learned behaviour. Benny Howell has become a highly effective cricketer in T20 because he has mastered all these change of pace deliveries.

    For baseball, there have been funny experiments where they have got major league batters to try to hit slower pitches and they really struggle, because again all their training / experience doesn't marry with what they are used to. Obviously after a short while they can adjust, but initially it is really hard for them. Its why the knuckle ball pitcher was popular for a while, despite throwing at such slow speeds.
    Strangely. This is reminiscent of a little PB conversation I had about a week ago about graduates in teaching. And about SEN kids outside even special schools, and working in PRU's.
    Am constantly asked by my colleagues how I manage it. How I maintain total calm in the face of horrific behaviour and exceptional panic
    attacks. Whilst being hit, kicked and bitten. How I keep them safe while they are standing on a railway bridge or platform threatening to chuck themselves off. In a state of no thought. No anxiety. No worry. Even when I'm physically blocking them from a moving InterCity. And then re establish a positive relationship with the child inside an hour.
    We laugh uproariously about it. And move on.
    The truthful answer is I don't know. Have been asked to train people up. I wouldn't know how to.
    I do know my possession of an honours degree from a Russell Group University is fuck all use in that moment.
    Nor did anyone teach me this.
    I'm a spectacularly useless classroom teacher of compliant kids who want to learn. I can't transmit knowledge. I'm not interesting.
    But I can get a knife off a dysregulated kid better than anyone I've ever seen.
    Because it's an art, not a Science.
    Find out what you're good at and lean in to it.
    As someone whose first instinct upon learning how to do something is to try to codify into something I can explain or teach, this is fascinating. At school, a teacher I admired said you don't understand something until you can explain it to others. But then he was talking about maths, not managing troubled children!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,112
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    Ground game has basically been negated by social media.
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    Physical presence still matters, and that covers a panoply of things from councillors, to stalls in the High Street, to posters in windows, and even to tellers at polling stations.

    I think it matters more for low turnout elections or minor areas (eg a council election), but for the rest I think activists are fooling themselves. It's a way of maintaining morale and engaging the members, but greater impact than social media and the news cycle? No. Things have moved on, but the party establishments and core members don't want to believe that could be true.

    I don't think it has no impact whatsoever, but I think it is fairly minimal, and most areas do not even get the kind of concerted, targeted effort that might conceivably make a difference at the margins, so even if it really does have more impact than I think it is not universal in any case.
    Disagree:

    1. Don't forget outdoor advertising is basically the only advertising that has seen rates rise since online and social.

    2. A lot of voting is tactical-ish. You vote for a party you like, and a party you think could win. That's why the LibDems make such an effort to build up councillor bases and the like.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
    Isn't McKinsey a place where no promotion to the partnership track you are pretty quickly a gonna? There no real hanging around in the same job for very long.
    You get 4 to 5 years of working 16 hour days, and then you are gently encouraged to depart.
    That's more forgiving than i thought. Amazon its more like Wipeout game show, only 1 in a load even make the 4 year mark. At every stage there is new dicey obstacle ready for a Ed Davey to fall off.
    And yet HR managers ask you 'why did you leave your last company after a year?' As if you're expected to show loyalty to them when no employer shows loyalty to you.

    'Welcome to our family,' they say, when hiring you.
    'It's not personal, it's just business' in the round of layoffs next year.
    In Tech, Amazon a particularly bad reputation for this. I think everybody knows it and a lot of it stiffing people of their share options that are less front loaded than a google. I don't think it hurts their future employment, rather it's probably a positive for recruiters that they got hired by Amazon in the first place.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    Some strange results in the Survation MRP.

    For example — Battersea is forecast to be a Labour win by 20%, compared to 11% last time, which is a swing of only 4.5%. Why such a low swing in a London seat?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    edited June 15
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Is this another one?


    📊 Labour lead at 17pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 40% (-2)
    CON: 23% (-1)
    REF: 14% (+2)
    LDEM: 12% (+2)
    GRN: 7% (-)


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1802053514379546632?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Looks like Labour really are going to get less than 40%.
    It's the gap that matters. Somehow I think they'll survive the disappointment if they get 40 or just below.
    Indeed. Any good reason why 40% is seen as an important milestone? Why not 45% or 50%? FPP is about winning seats. That is the entire point of the system.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    rcs1000 said:

    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    The one that might be a bit more relevant is the 3.8 million votes UKIP got in the 2015 general election.

    Still only got them one seat though. The Faragist vote distribution is horrible- not really high enough and definitely not spiky enough.
    Absolutely. And the ground game is practically non-existent, in part because those Reformers enthusiastic enough to actually door-knock are really bloody odd.
    I don't know in todays world how important door knocking is (beyond knowing who might vote for whom). Reform have a very friendly tv channel in GB News (which also gets large viewership on things like YouTube) and there is social media which even the oldies are on the FaceAche, in fact they are the only ones on that these days.
    Ground game has basically been negated by social media.
    I don't think that's entirely true.

    Physical presence still matters, and that covers a panoply of things from councillors, to stalls in the High Street, to posters in windows, and even to tellers at polling stations.

    I think it matters more for low turnout elections or minor areas (eg a council election), but for the rest I think activists are fooling themselves. It's a way of maintaining morale and engaging the members, but greater impact than social media and the news cycle? No. Things have moved on, but the party establishments and core members don't want to believe that could be true.

    I don't think it has no impact whatsoever, but I think it is fairly minimal, and most areas do not even get the kind of concerted, targeted effort that might conceivably make a difference at the margins, so even if it really does have more impact than I think it is not universal in any case.
    Disagree:

    1. Don't forget outdoor advertising is basically the only advertising that has seen rates rise since online and social.

    2. A lot of voting is tactical-ish. You vote for a party you like, and a party you think could win. That's why the LibDems make such an effort to build up councillor bases and the like.
    We shall have to agree to disagree. I just go on gut, and I've seen what I consider impact from a really outsized local effort, but translating that up to parliamentary level, when even high effort is hard to cover across an entire area, and then seeing that be significant on a wider scale when most areas do not really get all that much attention as party attention is highly targeted?

    I don't buy it above a few unusual examples. Now, I could certainly be wrong about that. But the people doing the hard yards and boring jobs in a campaign? I think they have an internal bias towards seeing it as vital to events, precisely because its hard to motivate to do it otherwise.

    Party members also faithfully show up to stand behind the Prime Minister holding signs next to the local candidate, does that sort of thing also make a difference?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    Andy_JS said:

    Seats Reform win according to the MRP

    Ashfield

    Clacton

    Exmouth & Exeter East

    Great Yarmouth

    Mid Leicestershire

    North West Norfolk

    South Suffolk

    Very surprised by Mid Leicestershire. That's mostly the former Charnwood seat, which has quite a high Asian population.
    The Asian bit was mostly Syston and Thurmaston, which is now in the Melton and Syston Constituency.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
    Isn't McKinsey a place where no promotion to the partnership track you are pretty quickly a gonna? There no real hanging around in the same job for very long.
    You get 4 to 5 years of working 16 hour days, and then you are gently encouraged to depart.
    That's more forgiving than i thought. Amazon its more like Wipeout game show, only 1 in a load even make the 4 year mark. At every stage there is new dicey obstacle ready for a Ed Davey to fall off.
    And yet HR managers ask you 'why did you leave your last company after a year?' As if you're expected to show loyalty to them when no employer shows loyalty to you.

    'Welcome to our family,' they say, when hiring you.
    'It's not personal, it's just business' in the round of layoffs next year.
    In Tech, Amazon a particularly bad reputation for this. I think everybody knows it and a lot of it stiffing people of their share options that are less front loaded than a google. I don't think it hurts their future employment, rather it's probably a positive for recruiters that they got hired by Amazon in the first place.
    I read a bio of Bezos and the early days of Amazon, and unsurprisingly the man himself seems like he is a huge arsehole (a billionaire an arsehole? Unheard of), but it was a bit more surprising to me that apparently Amazon did not offer the kind of employee perks that was apparently quite common at the tech firms in the area. A lot of hard work, to be sure, but also not even springing for things like employee parking or the like.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,615
    edited June 15
    Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Seats Reform win according to the MRP

    Ashfield

    Clacton

    Exmouth & Exeter East

    Great Yarmouth

    Mid Leicestershire

    North West Norfolk

    South Suffolk

    Very surprised by Mid Leicestershire. That's mostly the former Charnwood seat, which has quite a high Asian population.
    I think that one in particular is inexplicable.
    I misread it initially as NW Leicestershire, Andrew Bridgen's former seat, which would make a lot more sense.
    It would do, but as well as Reform Bridgen is standing again, splitting the right wing vote.

    Narrow Labour win IMO.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    edited June 15
    kle4 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Mortimer said:

    I suspect the Reforgasm has peaked already.
    Farage won a news cycle in the air war, and that’s that. But ground level activity matters too, and we all know that he can’t manage it.

    He got over 5 million votes and 30% in the 2019 Euro elections. I wouldn't bet on him getting fewer votes than that this time.
    Most of those 5m were a Tory vote strike, using it to tell May to sling her hook....
    May was more popular than Sunak in these parts.
    May was identifiably “one of us”.
    I don’t even mean this in a racist way.
    She just exuded middle England.

    Sunak is the junior consultant from McKinsey who had come to size you up for potential efficiencies.
    Yep, and he's not on the partnership track at McKinsey.
    Isn't McKinsey a place where no promotion to the partnership track you are pretty quickly a gonna? There no real hanging around in the same job for very long.
    You get 4 to 5 years of working 16 hour days, and then you are gently encouraged to depart.
    That's more forgiving than i thought. Amazon its more like Wipeout game show, only 1 in a load even make the 4 year mark. At every stage there is new dicey obstacle ready for a Ed Davey to fall off.
    And yet HR managers ask you 'why did you leave your last company after a year?' As if you're expected to show loyalty to them when no employer shows loyalty to you.

    'Welcome to our family,' they say, when hiring you.
    'It's not personal, it's just business' in the round of layoffs next year.
    In Tech, Amazon a particularly bad reputation for this. I think everybody knows it and a lot of it stiffing people of their share options that are less front loaded than a google. I don't think it hurts their future employment, rather it's probably a positive for recruiters that they got hired by Amazon in the first place.
    I read a bio of Bezos and the early days of Amazon, and unsurprisingly the man himself seems like he is a huge arsehole (a billionaire an arsehole? Unheard of), but it was a bit more surprising to me that apparently Amazon did not offer the kind of employee perks that was apparently quite common at the tech firms in the area. A lot of hard work, to be sure, but also not even springing for things like employee parking or the like.
    I presume it has hurt the company in the end e.g. Alexa has been very costly and a big failure. AWS obviously makes them a lot of money, but they don't need the top of the top tier talent for that in the way that the advances in LLM appears to need e.g. Google don't know what the secret sauce OpenAI and Anthropic have figured out, despite infinite resources and been the first to come up with things like the Transformer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Leon said:

    Is this another one?


    📊 Labour lead at 17pts
    Westminster voting intention

    LAB: 40% (-2)
    CON: 23% (-1)
    REF: 14% (+2)
    LDEM: 12% (+2)
    GRN: 7% (-)


    https://x.com/britainelects/status/1802053514379546632?s=46&t=bulOICNH15U6kB0MwE6Lfw

    Looks like Labour really are going to get less than 40%.
    It's the gap that matters. Somehow I think they'll survive the disappointment if they get 40 or just below.
    Indeed. Any good reason why 40% is seen as an important milestone?
    Probably because Corbyn got 40%. So it would be seen as him not being very popular after all.

    Corbyn's accolytes would probably regard it as most unfair if Keir cannot exceed that, or even comes under it, but he gets to be the PM with a massive majority. But them's the breaks - Corbyn did well in 2017, but Theresa May and the Conservatives were more popular.

    Of course, now the Tories look set to halve their vote from 2019, which should 60-75% reduce their MPs
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,397
    carnforth said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    DavidL said:

    If Bairstow or Brook had got out early as well, England could have been in a world of trouble. Why no Jacks is just bizarre.

    Not as bizarre as no Wood. He would have scared their batsmen on this pitch.
    I guess they were worried about going for lots of runs. But yes, the thing that players who are lesser can't cope is insane pace. There is just a massive difference between 80-85, then getting between 85-90, and then the insanity of 95.

    I found this out myself. I faced 80-85 most weekends and was ok. On rare occasion, I faced 85-90, and was in a world of hurt. I don't even want to think about 95.
    There's a story about when Hank Aaron was asked to help with some coaching of an exceptional young minor league hitter who had really struggled when called up to the Majors at the Braves' preseason camp.
    He patiently explained how you could watch each of the various 95mph + pitchers and pick up where the fingers were positioned and which way the ball was rotating, at what speed, and how you should adjust your shoulders, stance and swing in response, depending on whether you wanted to make a base hit or saw a chance of a possible home run. And how you could just know it would be a ball safely left.
    "Does that answer your questions?" he said.
    "Not really. How do you see the fucking ball?" was
    the reply.
    Hank never coached.
    They did some experiments where they strapped cameras to different ability players helmets for cricket. The "watch the ball" is nonsense when you reach these speeds, they found the elite players watch the release point and immediately their eyes moves to where the ball will pitch. The difference is they are right most of the time, other lesser players guesses are off even after using bowling machines.

    And the pros definitely aren't "watching it onto the bat". They watch release, move head / body to best play where it will pitch, play shot. It is why all these change-ups (borrowed from baseball) are effective, it totally messes with their learned behaviour. Benny Howell has become a highly effective cricketer in T20 because he has mastered all these change of pace deliveries.

    For baseball, there have been funny experiments where they have got major league batters to try to hit slower pitches and they really struggle, because again all their training / experience doesn't marry with what they are used to. Obviously after a short while they can adjust, but initially it is really hard for them. Its why the knuckle ball pitcher was popular for a while, despite throwing at such slow speeds.
    Strangely. This is reminiscent of a little PB conversation I had about a week ago about graduates in teaching. And about SEN kids outside even special schools, and working in PRU's.
    Am constantly asked by my colleagues how I manage it. How I maintain total calm in the face of horrific behaviour and exceptional panic
    attacks. Whilst being hit, kicked and bitten. How I keep them safe while they are standing on a railway bridge or platform threatening to chuck themselves off. In a state of no thought. No anxiety. No worry. Even when I'm physically blocking them from a moving InterCity. And then re establish a positive relationship with the child inside an hour.
    We laugh uproariously about it. And move on.
    The truthful answer is I don't know. Have been asked to train people up. I wouldn't know how to.
    I do know my possession of an honours degree from a Russell Group University is fuck all use in that moment.
    Nor did anyone teach me this.
    I'm a spectacularly useless classroom teacher of compliant kids who want to learn. I can't transmit knowledge. I'm not interesting.
    But I can get a knife off a dysregulated kid better than anyone I've ever seen.
    Because it's an art, not a Science.
    Find out what you're good at and lean in to it.
    As someone whose first instinct upon learning how to do something is to try to codify into something I can explain or teach, this is fascinating. At school, a teacher I admired said you don't understand something until you can explain it to others. But then he was talking about maths, not managing troubled children!
    There's a heck of a lot of theory, literature and research.
    But it all boils down to at a certain point you must use simple instructions and remain calm when the amygdala has taken over.
    None of it ever suggests HOW you should do that.
    Or how you should establish a relationship so they're likely to even consider you for a second when it has.
    I mean. You can know that, but I've seen SENCO's and Deputy Heads lose it
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060
    Andy_JS said:

    Some strange results in the Survation MRP.

    For example — Battersea is forecast to be a Labour win by 20%, compared to 11% last time, which is a swing of only 4.5%. Why such a low swing in a London seat?

    There is a top-end to swing: perhap's it's saturated, so to speak.

    Did you see this? Happy to pay money to you or a charity of your choice (cash only!)

    https://vf.politicalbetting.com/discussion/comment/4837581#Comment_4837581
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    Maybe he should address the point to colleagues of his in Parliament and without. As despondent as the party is most of them seem not to be keen to cross Farage.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    viewcode said:

    A lot of people on here confident that the Tories will outperform expectations and end up on 150-200 seats.

    I notice 150-200 is 10.0 on BF Exchange and 200-250 is 50.0.

    Surely some of you bullish on the Tories should go for that?

    It's not a bad idea. What we really need is an Andy_JS spreadsheet. Andy, will you be pulling together a spreadsheet for break-even in-time for election night 2024?
    Just seen this. I was thinking of doing one, but since I haven't started yet I may have left it a bit late. Thanks for asking.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    edited June 15
    Foxy said:

    Andy_JS said:

    EPG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Seats Reform win according to the MRP

    Ashfield

    Clacton

    Exmouth & Exeter East

    Great Yarmouth

    Mid Leicestershire

    North West Norfolk

    South Suffolk

    Very surprised by Mid Leicestershire. That's mostly the former Charnwood seat, which has quite a high Asian population.
    I think that one in particular is inexplicable.
    I misread it initially as NW Leicestershire, Andrew Bridgen's former seat, which would make a lot more sense.
    It would do, but as well as Reform Bridgen is standing again, splitting the right wing vote.

    Narrow Labour win IMO.
    Without a party label I doubt Bridgen will be getting much of the vote. What does he offer anyone? Anti-vax theories and an in ability to make friends it seems.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    edited June 15
    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    The Telegraph are rather going a bit loopy tunes on this. They had a piece on how your newborn will never see a non-Labour government until they are adults. 4 terms in parliament when Starmer isn't even the new messiah, he's not Obama, he's not Blair and the wider Labour team is nowhere near as strong as Tony Blair first cabinet. And of course starting from a far worse position than 1997 in terms of poor growth, high taxes, etc.

    The Tories obviously hope the scare tactics work, but you can overdo and be the boy that cried wolf.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767
    Chatting to a friend tonight who's been campaigning for Labour in Gillingham. She says people were a bit sceptical about Starmer but seemed pretty receptive to Labour's message overall.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767
    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    Jenrick really is quite unpleasant.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    I am surprised sometimes what things mostly non-political people do or do not pick up. Even prior to the GE campaign I knew at least one person who had taken on board the idea Starmer has no ideas and just flip flops all the time. They are not planning to vote for anyone, but they don't watch live TV and seem fairly casual in following the news, so it's interesting they picked that up (and that they think Sunak is a snake).
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,118
    edited June 15
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    DavidL said:

    The SNP score is particularly disappointing for me and I find it hard to relate to what I am seeing on the ground in Scotland. The SNP are almost invisible because they have no money. We have had 1 leaflet from the SNP and 6 from the Tories (neither Labour nor the Lib Dems are wasting their time in this constituency, I am not even sure Reform are standing). This is in an SNP seat.

    Will that make a difference, other than to the recycling bins? Who knows, but it is a long time since the SNP have had so little impact in a major election. I will be gutted if they pick up 37 seats, gutted.

    On the ground in ANME:
    Tories - their freepost is dropping. Addressed to household not voter. No other activity that we are aware of
    SNP - no money but plenty of bodies. Extensively doorknocking.
    Labour - nothing at all
    Reform - nothing at all
    LibDem - selected doorknocking. We're targeting key wards rather than the whole constituency. Targets will get quite a lot of stuff through the letterbox. Plus a targeted Facebook ad campaign which will be pretty intensive in the remaining weeks

    As for the SNP, we're getting that much of their vote is softer than usual. A lot of upset about the state of public services. The odd mention of corruption. Frequent mentions of arrogance and being taken for granted...
    I guess likely outcome there is Tories & SNP in mid-30s with Lab 3rd and Libs 4th. Think Ross will edge it. Sorry, but I doubt there is a huge suppressed LibDem vote just waiting to surge out from Buckie, Fraserburgh and Peterhead.
    Its possible! You've said a couple of times that there isn't a suppressed LD vote - it isn't suppressed! We have councillors! As for finishing behind Labour? Sure - could happen. But there is no sign of a Labour vote here either - finished 4th in 2019 and have zero representation.

    Ross vs Logan? I think Logan. Ross is deeply unpopular even amongst his own people - they leaked the "we think his expenses are dodgy" story last weekend and provided quotes to the newspaper...
    It was quite the thing, to see a Tory getting the Rayner treatment from his own side. Even - especially - if it did not come to anything in the end.
    Plenty came of it. IPSA have cleared his dirty laundry as clean. Fine. Respect that. Not sure all the people who saw them will feel the same. It smells wrong, even if it is in order. In an election, feel matters way more than fact.

    His newly adopted local association threw him under the bus. With what they believed to be a scandal they had helped cover up. Complete with quotes. *Even the Tories* felt it was wrong, rules or not.

    The key scandal remains the abrupt sacking of Duguid. Tories demand that sick peopl go back to work - unless they are in the way. That action is definitely wrong, and the stench remains pungent.

    If Ross turns up to the hustings on Thursday it could be interesting.
    BTW - I expect you have seen the news about the suggested reopening of the railway to the Broch and Peterheid?

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/people/new-rail-links-would-bring-huge-benefits-to-buchan-4665560
    That looks rather panglossian from an advocacy group - they are kitchen-sinking everything, including making lots of assumptions and not mentioning downsides, because they want to build a railway.

    From the link.

    The Buchan Sustainable Transport Study has found that rerailing Fraserburgh and Peterhead could reduce 75% of serious or fatal accidents on the road

    Do they actually mean reduce KS by 75% because of a partial railway alternative? All being equal, that will require a reduction of ~75% in traffic, or other intervention to slow them down. Given reduced traffic, I'd expect them to go faster. What interventions on the roads are proposed?

    And other similars.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046

    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    Jenrick really is quite unpleasant.
    Future Leader of the Opposition then?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541

    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    Jenrick really is quite unpleasant.
    Funny because he started off as one of the most moderate Tory MPs if I remember correctly.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,937
    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    And if Jenrick hadn't been involved in shenanigans like this, I might be more inclined to vote for his party -

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jun/24/robert-jenrick-planning-row-the-key-questions-answered

    You reap what you sow.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    Here's that 2016 Brexit spreadsheet again. It correctly predicted 88.7% of districts. Not sure how good that really was compared to other forecasters.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hCtN3IY76azcr_6OiFPvZI0eXi_8JJqxT7d8vNhW2Do/edit?gid=0#gid=0
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    edited June 15
    MRP — Brentford and Isleworth is forecast to register a swing to the Tories, with Lab down 10% and Con down 8%.

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/
    https://electionresults.parliament.uk/elections/2041

    (Listening to Trevor Nelson's review of Sade's debut album Diamond Life on Radio 2 at the same time as looking at the MRP results. 😊 )
  • ianian Posts: 23
    Jenrick may very well share voters frustration. What he will not share is jjust how disgusted many of us are, and how we cannot wait to vote the bastards out.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,046
    ian said:

    Jenrick may very well share voters frustration. What he will not share is jjust how disgusted many of us are, and how we cannot wait to vote the bastards out.

    I'm sure like all MPs he would be heartened by a show of voter enthusiasm.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,112
    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    Jenrick really is quite unpleasant.
    Funny because he started off as one of the most moderate Tory MPs if I remember correctly.
    One can be unpleasant and politically moderate..

    Chris Huhne, for example.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    rcs1000 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Andy_JS said:

    Robert Jenrick using very strong language to describe a potential Labour government.

    "Jenrick: I share voters’ frustrations but backing Reform means a Labour dictatorship
    Ex-immigration minister says the success of Nigel Farage’s party threatens to kill off conservatism"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/15/robert-jenrick-reform-vote-labour-elective-dictatorship/

    Jenrick really is quite unpleasant.
    Funny because he started off as one of the most moderate Tory MPs if I remember correctly.
    One can be unpleasant and politically moderate..

    Chris Huhne, for example.
    Isn't he big into talking about biogas these days...insert own joke here...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,541
    edited June 16
    Another odd MRP result.

    Enfield North — swing of 0.7% from Lab to Con

    Lab down 10.1%
    Con down 8.7%

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/
    https://electionresults.parliament.uk/elections/2183
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508
    By the way, on the topic of the Survation MRP poll. They claim it is the first MRP poll conducted since Farage announced his return to front line politics. This is not strictly true.

    Farage announced he was taking the leadership of Reform and standing in the election on Monday 3rd June.

    The Survation MRP survey dates were from Friday 31st May to Thursday 13th June. So perhaps 25% of the polling (or over 10,000 of the respondents) had been conducted before Farage's announcement.

    Not sure if this makes much difference to the results but it is worth bearing in mind.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 23,118
    edited June 16
    Andy_JS said:

    Another odd MRP result.

    Enfield North — swing of 0.7% from Lab to Con

    Lab down 10.1%
    Con down 8.7%

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/
    https://electionresults.parliament.uk/elections/2183

    I'll be so embarrassed if we are the only non-Labour seat left in the whole of the D2N2 area :wink: .
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    Squeaky bum time for England, as the Scots are off to a good start against Australia.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,060
    Andy_JS said:

    MRP — Brentford and Isleworth is forecast to register a swing to the Tories, with Lab down 10% and Con down 8%.

    https://www.survation.com/mrp-update-first-mrp-since-farages-return/
    https://electionresults.parliament.uk/elections/2041

    (Listening to Trevor Nelson's review of Sade's debut album Diamond Life on Radio 2 at the same time as looking at the MRP results. 😊 )

    I'm listening to the Moreno J Remix of "Fade To Grey" whilst reading "Popbitch". Admittedly not quite the same... :)

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    The Scots can't do it, surely, not. Smashing the convicts around at 10/over.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 81,963
    I think its pretty safe to say if there was going to be any sort of bomb shell story it would have been this evening. Instead the paper are really dull.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,547
    Roger said:

    Just heard the English football fans chant to the French

    "You're shit but your girls are fit..."

    First heard against, I think, Croatia, a couple of decades back?
  • DumbosaurusDumbosaurus Posts: 794
    edited June 16
    Andy_JS said:

    Here's that 2016 Brexit spreadsheet again. It correctly predicted 88.7% of districts. Not sure how good that really was compared to other forecasters.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hCtN3IY76azcr_6OiFPvZI0eXi_8JJqxT7d8vNhW2Do/edit?gid=0#gid=0

    Andy_JS said:

    Here's that 2016 Brexit spreadsheet again. It correctly predicted 88.7% of districts. Not sure how good that really was compared to other forecasters.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hCtN3IY76azcr_6OiFPvZI0eXi_8JJqxT7d8vNhW2Do/edit?gid=0#gid=0

    It was good enough that you had about 45 minutes to short cable after Sunderland iirc (been a while)

    This election will be far more complicated of course and barring anything absolutely bizarre financial markets will be unmoved. So the potential gains will be much lower from a wholistic point of view. The political markets are going to be much more fun though despite their relatively low stakes. I'm loving it.

    Anyone think this can meaningfully move US political markets? I can't see how (barring Reform on 40%) but maybe something I've not thought of?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508
    edited June 16
    Working nightshift on the Bittern field. Actually not working as the operation doesn't need me at present.

    So had a play with the Survation MRP data just looking at those seats predicted to stay Tory.

    A few observations.

    If they are right then of the 72 seats the Tories retain, 1 is in Scotland. None in Wales.
    The Tories end up with no seats in either the North East or North West regions. They will keep only 2 seats in London

    Of the former MPs mentioned this evening;

    Robert Jenrick loses his seat in Newark
    Penny Mourdant loses her seat in Portsmouth North
    Johnny Mercer loses his seat in Plymouth Moor View
    Jacob Rees Mogg loses his seat in North East Somerset and Hanham

    Patel, Badenoch and Braverman all retain their seats as does Sunak.

    Some of the margins on these seats are incredibly tight. The North Cotswold seat has a nominal Tory win but there is less than 1% between the Tories, Labour and Lib Dems. In total there are 8 of the Tory holds where Labour are within 1% of them.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508
    By the way, just looking at the header, there is an error. On this MRP poll, Liz Truss does not survive. Labour take the seat.
  • HeathenerHeathener Posts: 7,084

    By the way, just looking at the header, there is an error. On this MRP poll, Liz Truss does not survive. Labour take the seat.

    Thanks for your helpful, considered, posts on this Richard.

    Ground noise seems to suggest Liz Truss has a big fight on her hands. She may be in trouble.

    Back down in the South-west, Labour seem to be pretty confident of taking Plymouth Moor View. Interestingly, they are putting no effort into Newton Abbot, leaving that for the LibDems to try and take.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508
    Heathener said:

    By the way, just looking at the header, there is an error. On this MRP poll, Liz Truss does not survive. Labour take the seat.

    Thanks for your helpful, considered, posts on this Richard.

    Ground noise seems to suggest Liz Truss has a big fight on her hands. She may be in trouble.

    Back down in the South-west, Labour seem to be pretty confident of taking Plymouth Moor View. Interestingly, they are putting no effort into Newton Abbot, leaving that for the LibDems to try and take.
    Cheers m'lady. I have done a bit more work on this and am hoping it might form the basis of a short thread header although it may well already be out of date if we get more polling today.

    Other notable losses if this poll is correct are David Davis and Ian Duncan Smith.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,508
    Heathener said:

    By the way, just looking at the header, there is an error. On this MRP poll, Liz Truss does not survive. Labour take the seat.

    Thanks for your helpful, considered, posts on this Richard.

    Ground noise seems to suggest Liz Truss has a big fight on her hands. She may be in trouble.

    Back down in the South-west, Labour seem to be pretty confident of taking Plymouth Moor View. Interestingly, they are putting no effort into Newton Abbot, leaving that for the LibDems to try and take.
    Oh and surprised about Newton Abbot. On that MRP poll Labour are miles ahead and the Lib Dems in a poor 3rd quite a way behind the Tories.
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