Environment. Waffley Starmer bombing, Sunak clear and combative winning. Who would have thought it.
Do have to giggle. You think this is going to help the Tories? Sunak is being laughed at as I type this
Who would have thought prepared and polished Sunak would come out with a clear win tonight. It’s got to help him and the campaign. You are trying to brush it off as meaningless win now?
Sunak won that first half for me, far more combative.
You are biased of course, but I agree. But that was because of amateurish moderation. Starmer more measured and prime ministerial.
Am I biased? What is that based on? Point to a comment I have made on PB that is baised. With the very greatest respect, I feel like I am probably one of the most unbiased posters on here.
To add, hopefully in an unbiased way, I think Starmer has improved in the 2nd half.
For some reason I thought you were a self-declared Tory. Apologies if that is wrong.
In any case, I agree with your analysis.
Thank you - no I am not a self-declared anything.
If I was in the Lords I would almost certainly be a crossbencher.
Anecdotes. But my WhatsApp groups of less political folk watching this are generally of the view that it is an appalling standard of debate and horrible watching. Like the Alien Vs Predator tagline: whoever wins, we lose.
Sunak is the guy who went into his finals with his essays already written in his head. Starmer is the guy who revised everything he had been taught in the previous three years.
Environment. Waffley Starmer bombing, Sunak clear and combative winning. Who would have thought it.
Do have to giggle. You think this is going to help the Tories? Sunak is being laughed at as I type this
Who would have thought prepared and polished Sunak would come out with a clear win tonight. It’s got to help him and the campaign. You are trying to brush it off as meaningless win now?
I haven't watched the debate. Too busy at work and sort of decided not to do so too.
I know this is probably an impossible question to ask in an election campaign where everyone is very invested, including me, but...
Does anyone have an objective take on how well Starmer and Sunak have done here please?
I'll try. Sunak is very aggressive and impassioned. He is making his points with ferocity. Swinging wildly. Sounds committed. But veering towards the deranged. He's by any standards rude. Starmer seems to have been thrown a little. He's remained calm. But I think it is dawning on him the Sunak does not intend to fight in a gentlemanly manner. He appears to have frozen a little. He looks every inch what he is. A prosecutor. But he's labouring under the prosecutor's nightmare. He's not getting the defendant he expected and planned for. And with a woefully weak judge. Doesn't seem to be able to improvise. He needs to either go in two footed in return. Or stick to the game plan. It's going better for Sunak. But perhaps that may be low expectations. Difficult to say how it will be judged by the more important constituency, those who aren't really familiar with them. Sunak on a split decision so far. But leading with his chin.
Very fair summary. I'm definitely in the Starmer camp but think Sunak will gain from this.
Starmer sounds more competent, but I gloss over his answers. Sunak's answers stick more, even if they're nonsense (eg go home and Google cost of electric car, insulation, heat pump etc).
More in Commons Live focus group think it's all pretty crap but Sunak more polished, but interrupting moderator an issue
Do we all remember that first debate with Truss? He thought he'd smashed it and it backfired dramatically?
Yep.
In that debate he came over as arrogant and mansplaining. He was just plain rude and gave the impression he thought Truss was some upstart who should not have dared to challenge him.
Now Truss was a loon, but he gave the impression of being a man scorning the presumption of a woman. Not a good look.
Sunak won that first half for me, far more combative.
You are biased of course, but I agree. But that was because of amateurish moderation. Starmer more measured and prime ministerial.
Am I biased? What is that based on? Point to a comment I have made on PB that is baised. With the very greatest respect, I feel like I am probably one of the most unbiased posters on here.
To add, hopefully in an unbiased way, I think Starmer has improved in the 2nd half.
For some reason I thought you were a self-declared Tory. Apologies if that is wrong.
In any case, I agree with your analysis.
Thank you - no I am not a self-declared anything.
If I was in the Lords I would almost certainly be a crossbencher.
Is that some kind of totally-depraved, ultra-Woke gender-bending? (Just kid-ding!)
Environment. Waffley Starmer bombing, Sunak clear and combative winning. Who would have thought it.
Do have to giggle. You think this is going to help the Tories? Sunak is being laughed at as I type this
Who would have thought prepared and polished Sunak would come out with a clear win tonight. It’s got to help him and the campaign. You are trying to brush it off as meaningless win now?
Remember 2010 when the debate blew polling apart
I mostly remember that mad bit at the end when Gordon decided to leave the rostrum and shake hands with the audience, followed a bit later by a bemused Clegg and Cam.
Rishi won every round in 2nd section too, except Natty servs, which was just weird from him. Sunak didn’t even sell natty servs with his eyes.
Whatever skills Starmer’s has, debating is not one of them, hence his loss here tonight. Starmer needs a thousand words and ten minutes each time to give an answer. 🫣
Sunak, quick, clear, punchy, and came full of questions for Starmer and ambushed him with them.
Overall, Sunak did better than expected, I think. But that’s on the basis that I expected him to utterly fail, and he said one or two coherent sentences.
Sunak is probably more “clip-able” overall for social media, which (depressingly) matters. And Starmer never really rejected the tax and environmental costs stuff. But Sunak was laughed at more.
Closing Starmer – I don’t offer gimmicks or unfunded promises. I don’t promise theres a magic want to fix overnight. Practical common sense plan to change Britain. Patriotic believe we can and will be better. Imagine how you will feel to 5 more years of tories, decline, division, arsonists given the matches. Imagine labour putting country back in your service, choice is clear, more chaos with conservatives, ro chance to change Britain
Sunak – a vote for anyone else makes it more likely starmer will be PM. Agree with me or not you know me, and I’ll have your back, like in furlough. Won’t say what he will do or what it will cost. Cannot trust an uncertain PM, don’t vote for them. Choose lower immigration, lower taxes, protected future.
Sunak was weird there, his tone was utterly unlike any other part of the debate, softer and smooth, very rehearsed. Starmer seemed more earnest.
Sunak saying you may not like him but you know him, Starmer saying he is not overpromising, both rather careful in final pitch
Would give Sunak the edge. Starmer had a few too many times where he avoided a direct question and went on tangents about his toolmaker dad, the DPP, and WW2 for some reason. Sunak more aggressive but hit his key points home better.
Starmer talking about home ownership and building homes, and need to change planning laws. Good news to me, but is it actually popular?
He's hit the nail on what needs to be done.
I've said for years planning restrictions and NIMBYs are the number one block in this country. If he follows through on that, then he's won my vote with that - but what's the detail because that's a big if.
What's the rough viewership of that piece of crap?
I am not quite as scathing as median viewpoint here but KS really shouldn't be getting wound up by Sunak's shenigans, being magesterial would have been better.
Thought Sunak was punchier and sharper but he has so much less to lose. I thought that Starmer is more focused on making no mistakes than landing blows because he has such a strong position.
It was odd because normally the incumbent takes the Starmer role but it is starting to feel like he is the incumbent already. The Tory vote may harden fractionally but I very much doubt there will be many switchers.
I'll call it boring at 6/10 for each - Sunak had a decent start, Starmer did better on questions in second half. Sunak was confident and energetic, but aggressive. Starmer solid as expected, but was a bit flummoxed initially.
Neither relied too much on a few catchphrases after a rocky start.
Sunak has been very aggressive and scored some hits .
Starmer should have done better to refute some of the attacks .
I think Sunak edged it but his manner at times was quite annoying and I do think his answer on the NHS was awful . Of course people might try and go private if they have the money but many couldn’t afford to .
Labours campaign will go big on that and Sunaks will go big on the 2,000 pound tax bombshell.
Hmmm - I think Starmer was pretty poor. And Sunak better than I expected. However, I cannot fathom some of the lines from Sunak. “You’ve had fourteen years to come up with ideas” seemed destined to be memes. I also thought his outro was like a bad American informercial. Did not make me want to buy.
Starmer just wanted to get through it. And I supposed he did. Which I guess was the goal (and why I thought he was poor). But I can’t imagine it would make anyone hop and skip to the ballot box to mark a cross for Labour.
I am missing the debate on account of a thing. Is it as dreadful as anticipated?
You made the right choice, even if your “thing” was a root canal.
Won't go into details, but it's been nearly as painful. Situation where one is desperate to go home but can't. Interminable waiting. Would rather be at home watching these two TBH.
Sorry to hear it. Best wishes.
Am now on way home, at last. My sense of relief at the end of the suffering probably echoes that of the debate audience.
I haven't watched the debate. Too busy at work and sort of decided not to do so too.
I know this is probably an impossible question to ask in an election campaign where everyone is very invested, including me, but...
Does anyone have an objective take on how well Starmer and Sunak have done here please?
I'll try. Sunak is very aggressive and impassioned. He is making his points with ferocity. Swinging wildly. Sounds committed. But veering towards the deranged. He's by any standards rude. Starmer seems to have been thrown a little. He's remained calm. But I think it is dawning on him the Sunak does not intend to fight in a gentlemanly manner. He appears to have frozen a little. He looks every inch what he is. A prosecutor. But he's labouring under the prosecutor's nightmare. He's not getting the defendant he expected and planned for. And with a woefully weak judge. Doesn't seem to be able to improvise. He needs to either go in two footed in return. Or stick to the game plan. It's going better for Sunak. But perhaps that may be low expectations. Difficult to say how it will be judged by the more important constituency, those who aren't really familiar with them. Sunak on a split decision so far. But leading with his chin.
Sunak gave some nervous Tories some fire to bolster morale, Starmer had no cock ups. I expect that since he is rated more popular means Starmer will be seen as the winner, but Sunak wasn't bad.
But the public won't get to see him demanding "What plan?" at Starmer over and over for 4 weeks.
This debate won't have shifted many votes, if any.
They rarely make much difference.
ONLY if one of the debaters REALLY screws up.
Like Richard Nixon with his sweating & five-o'clock shadow. Or Jerry Ford with Poland being "free". Or Bush the Elder looking at his watch. Or Al Gore with his "locked box".
At other end of the spectrum, can make a difference IF one of the debaters gets off a killer one-liner.
Like Walter Mondale asking Gary Hart, "where's the beef?" Or Ronald Reagan saying he refused to take advantage of his Mondale's "youth and inexperience". Or Lloyd Benson telling Dan Quayle, "I knew Jack Kennedy . . . Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy".
So, we went into the debate with the Tory slide into E.L.E. getting worse.
Has salvation now arrived? After all, Starmer has had 14 years to come up with policies during his time in government, and has a track record of failure. We learned that tonight. So watch the Tory recovery be like a landslide.
That was the worst moderated debate I've ever seen. She was utterly hopeless. Sunak allowed to talk over Starmer, Starmer allowed to shout over Sunak.
A score draw in the end for me.
I think Sunak won overall, but Starmer won the second half. The moderating in the first half particularly was abysmal, although it improved after the break.
Agreed. But he didn't needed to smash it out of the park and to be honest I don't think Starmer did that well, so to me this still suggests the public have basically made up their mind.
Comments
Yep.
Sunak needed game changing mega moment.
He did't get one.
You are trying to brush it off as meaningless win now?
Remember 2010 when the debate blew polling apart
First reference to 5 Prime Ministers. Have to start fresh with Labour gets some applause.
Moderator: The worst I've ever seen.
Polling impact: sod all.
If I was in the Lords I would almost certainly be a crossbencher.
Clear win indeed
This has been shit. Utter utter crap.
SKS will be as good a PM as Sunak.
Heaven help us.
Starmer sounds more competent, but I gloss over his answers. Sunak's answers stick more, even if they're nonsense (eg go home and Google cost of electric car, insulation, heat pump etc).
Starmer much better on the football question.
Now Truss was a loon, but he gave the impression of being a man scorning the presumption of a woman. Not a good look.
Sunak needed a bit more.
Imagine what Farage will do to her
Whatever skills Starmer’s has, debating is not one of them, hence his loss here tonight.
Starmer needs a thousand words and ten minutes each time to give an answer. 🫣
Sunak, quick, clear, punchy, and came full of questions for Starmer and ambushed him with them.
I enjoyed it, it was fun 🙂
Sunak is probably more “clip-able” overall for social media, which (depressingly) matters. And Starmer never really rejected the tax and environmental costs stuff. But Sunak was laughed at more.
Closing
Starmer – I don’t offer gimmicks or unfunded promises. I don’t promise theres a magic want to fix overnight. Practical common sense plan to change Britain. Patriotic believe we can and will be better. Imagine how you will feel to 5 more years of tories, decline, division, arsonists given the matches. Imagine labour putting country back in your service, choice is clear, more chaos with conservatives, ro chance to change Britain
Sunak – a vote for anyone else makes it more likely starmer will be PM. Agree with me or not you know me, and I’ll have your back, like in furlough. Won’t say what he will do or what it will cost. Cannot trust an uncertain PM, don’t vote for them. Choose lower immigration, lower taxes, protected future.
Sunak was weird there, his tone was utterly unlike any other part of the debate, softer and smooth, very rehearsed. Starmer seemed more earnest.
Sunak saying you may not like him but you know him, Starmer saying he is not overpromising, both rather careful in final pitch
A score draw in the end for me.
Wouldn’t expect it to shift anything though.
I've said for years planning restrictions and NIMBYs are the number one block in this country. If he follows through on that, then he's won my vote with that - but what's the detail because that's a big if.
I am not quite as scathing as median viewpoint here but KS really shouldn't be getting wound up by Sunak's shenigans, being magesterial would have been better.
Sunak just trotted out his prepared lines in a gotcha attempt and ignored the questions.
So pretty similar to the PMQs that we have seen these last 20 or so months.
It was odd because normally the incumbent takes the Starmer role but it is starting to feel like he is the incumbent already. The Tory vote may harden fractionally but I very much doubt there will be many switchers.
But he also got laughed at.
Starmer though won the NHS and waiting lists section
Neither relied too much on a few catchphrases after a rocky start.
Starmer should have done better to refute some of the attacks .
I think Sunak edged it but his manner at times was quite annoying and I do think his answer on the NHS was awful . Of course people might try and go private if they have the money but many couldn’t afford to .
Labours campaign will go big on that and Sunaks will go big on the 2,000 pound tax bombshell.
But Sunak won tonight I think, just.
He really had thought of it on the way to the gym and he didn't even try to hide it. I think he's finished
Starmer just wanted to get through it. And I supposed he did. Which I guess was the goal (and why I thought he was poor). But I can’t imagine it would make anyone hop and skip to the ballot box to mark a cross for Labour.
Exactly as Team Starmer would have wanted.
Sunak - 51%
Starmer - 49%
No, he said he wasn't sure whether he or Southgate had more people wanting to pass on their opinion.
I thought Starmer was as bad as expected and Sunak slightly better than expected, but both against a very low bar.
Labour's honeymoon is going to be very short.
But the public won't get to see him demanding "What plan?" at Starmer over and over for 4 weeks.
Like Richard Nixon with his sweating & five-o'clock shadow. Or Jerry Ford with Poland being "free". Or Bush the Elder looking at his watch. Or Al Gore with his "locked box".
At other end of the spectrum, can make a difference IF one of the debaters gets off a killer one-liner.
Like Walter Mondale asking Gary Hart, "where's the beef?" Or Ronald Reagan saying he refused to take advantage of his Mondale's "youth and inexperience". Or Lloyd Benson telling Dan Quayle, "I knew Jack Kennedy . . . Senator, you're no Jack Kennedy".
Has salvation now arrived? After all, Starmer has had 14 years to come up with policies during his time in government, and has a track record of failure. We learned that tonight. So watch the Tory recovery be like a landslide.
It will stop migrants who cross unlawfully from receiving asylum, but only takes effect when the southern border has been "overwhelmed""
Biden agrees with Sunak that there is such a thing as arriving illegaly.
Exactly the same, lol.