While labour is rightly castigated for parachuting its favoured few into safe seats. Luke Fucking Akehurst will be my MP in a few weeks FFS. The Tories have been doing the same.
I reckon Trump will have maybe lost half of the 20% of Republican primary voters who are still going Haley - I think that'll be enough to lose him quite a few states.
Unless she is veep?
No, Haley will want Trump to own what is now a likely defeat and ensure his veep is a Trump stooge.
Her best chance in 2028 is a Trump clear defeat from which she has clean hands, the GOP base may still want a Trump loyalist even then but at least she then offers a clear choice
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
How is it "a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point" when every juror agreed that he was guilty for 34 charges? Not one juror disagreed across all those charges. Are the jurors part of the conspiracy? Or maybe Donald Trump is a lying crook and justice is finally catching up with him.
This particular case is just one piece of the mosaic. Tho it is itself - AIUI - driven by a district attorney who was elected explicitly to “get Trump”. You think that’s ok because Trump is awful and everyone hates him. But imagine if a case was brought against Biden by a DA elected to “get Biden”
And the bigger picture definitely reveals a “conspiracy” to stop Trump. Take the lab leak hypothesis. One of the reasons it was so vigorously and fraudulently suppressed is because it was associated with Trump and it was felt that if it gained traction it would help Trump in the election
And it might have done - who knows
So democrats put pressure on Facebook and Twitter to silence an entirely plausible theory about the biggest health disaster in global history
You don’t have to be a flat earther to perceive that the left liberal establishment in the USA is out to get Trump. They ARE
And perhaps that is valid - he is a menace to democracy. I can see that argument too
If Biden was guilty of a crime then I absolutely want a DA determined to get Biden - no-one should be above the law, not even Presidents.
The wider problem is related both the customary practise and Trump.
In this case he stupidly committed a number of crimes in silencing a bimbo eruption (TM Bill Clinton). Politicians have silenced bimbos with cash many times before. Probably used campaign cash to do so. The Orange One probably thought that he was just doing the same thing - but he went much further across various lines than he predecessors.
So you have Trump and MAGA screaming that it's unfair "Everyone does this" and the legitimate point that Trump & Co. actually broke the law.
A big part of the MAGA thing is that the political system is corrupt and that Washington is a pile of legalised bribery.
So to the MAGA types, the difference between legalised crime and straight up illegality is just hypocrisy.
The issue of "lawfare" in the current US political environment is that the Democrats are pursuing proper criminals who did criminal shit and consequently are getting convictions; the Republicans are pursuing personal vendettas they so want to win it hurts - but suffer from the slight problem of there being no crime involved.
While labour is rightly castigated for parachuting its favoured few into safe seats. Luke Fucking Akehurst will be my MP in a few weeks FFS. The Tories have been doing the same.
Yup, seems Starmer and the NEC are purging Corbynites from winnable Labour seats for loyalists and Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
How is it "a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point" when every juror agreed that he was guilty for 34 charges? Not one juror disagreed across all those charges. Are the jurors part of the conspiracy? Or maybe Donald Trump is a lying crook and justice is finally catching up with him.
This particular case is just one piece of the mosaic. Tho it is itself - AIUI - driven by a district attorney who was elected explicitly to “get Trump”. You think that’s ok because Trump is awful and everyone hates him. But imagine if a case was brought against Biden by a DA elected to “get Biden”
And the bigger picture definitely reveals a “conspiracy” to stop Trump. Take the lab leak hypothesis. One of the reasons it was so vigorously and fraudulently suppressed is because it was associated with Trump and it was felt that if it gained traction it would help Trump in the election
And it might have done - who knows
So democrats put pressure on Facebook and Twitter to silence an entirely plausible theory about the biggest health disaster in global history
You don’t have to be a flat earther to perceive that the left liberal establishment in the USA is out to get Trump. They ARE
And perhaps that is valid - he is a menace to democracy. I can see that argument too
If Biden was guilty of a crime then I absolutely want a DA determined to get Biden - no-one should be above the law, not even Presidents.
Perhaps it’s just my British discomfort about prosecutors being elected to “get” ANYONE
It simply feels wrong. A bad idea
It feels wrong to elect prosecutors full stop but prosecutors being out to "get" criminals is basically their job description.
Biden has arguably broken several laws. Some of them deeply serious. I won’t trouble the PB mods with the detailed rumours that might invite lawyers but they are out there and far from insubstantial
So you’d be ok with a Republican DA being elected on the basis of “getting Biden” and then pursuing him ferociously in this year before the election?
You wouldn’t think that was quite provocative?
Yeah, the system stinks.
But Trump is guilty. Biden may well be too (I don't know the allegations). I'm less bothered though about a Dem Rep DA going after Biden than a Rep DA not going after Trump (or vice versa - Dem DA not going after Biden). At least if the DA has it in for you and you're rich and powerful you get a reasonable fight in court. If the DA is on your side and sufficiently corrupt, you can presumably get away with almost anything.
I am not at all convinced the Trump conviction will change the polls overnight but as others have said the impacts, if any, will likely be felt on the margins. Which is particularly important in the Blue Wall states.
The thing that has caught me by surprise so far in this election is how far Biden has slipped in AZ, GA and NV (I appreciate some of this is to do with the immigration topic). I fully expected him to lose GA this time around - the others, I thought he had a decent punt in. The conviction won’t alter his chances in those states alone, he will need to come back with a compelling voter offer to get AZ and NV back in play.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
How is it "a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point" when every juror agreed that he was guilty for 34 charges? Not one juror disagreed across all those charges. Are the jurors part of the conspiracy? Or maybe Donald Trump is a lying crook and justice is finally catching up with him.
This particular case is just one piece of the mosaic. Tho it is itself - AIUI - driven by a district attorney who was elected explicitly to “get Trump”. You think that’s ok because Trump is awful and everyone hates him. But imagine if a case was brought against Biden by a DA elected to “get Biden”
And the bigger picture definitely reveals a “conspiracy” to stop Trump. Take the lab leak hypothesis. One of the reasons it was so vigorously and fraudulently suppressed is because it was associated with Trump and it was felt that if it gained traction it would help Trump in the election
And it might have done - who knows
So democrats put pressure on Facebook and Twitter to silence an entirely plausible theory about the biggest health disaster in global history
You don’t have to be a flat earther to perceive that the left liberal establishment in the USA is out to get Trump. They ARE
And perhaps that is valid - he is a menace to democracy. I can see that argument too
If Biden was guilty of a crime then I absolutely want a DA determined to get Biden - no-one should be above the law, not even Presidents.
Perhaps it’s just my British discomfort about prosecutors being elected to “get” ANYONE
It simply feels wrong. A bad idea
It feels wrong to elect prosecutors full stop but prosecutors being out to "get" criminals is basically their job description.
Biden has arguably broken several laws. Some of them deeply serious. I won’t trouble the PB mods with the detailed rumours that might invite lawyers but they are out there and far from insubstantial
So you’d be ok with a Republican DA being elected on the basis of “getting Biden” and then pursuing him ferociously in this year before the election?
You wouldn’t think that was quite provocative?
No, just like with Angela Rayner, I'm happy for her that she's been investigated and cleared rather than just having a cloud of suspicion hanging over her. I want an American DA that wants to get Biden to investigate any allegations against him, if there's any substance then bring it to a court and a jury of his peers.
What I would oppose is any soft-pedalling on criminality because some of the alleged criminal's supporters would get upset. That path leads to a very dark place.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
Its how American politics works.
The House GOP have been waging lawfare against Biden since they took control in 2022.
The aim of taking control of Congress isn't just to pass laws but to launch investigations.
Its perhaps an inevitable part of the separation of powers - a party can have control of one part of government, or part of a part, but cannot do anything constructive with it and so engages in something destructive instead.
American politics doesn’t always work this badly. It hasn’t been THIS dysfunctional since the civil war.
1824 was more dysfunctional. Jackson won the popular vote and the electoral college only to lose a three way contingent election in Congress to Adams.
1836 was also pretty fruity when faithless electors from Virginia refused to vote for Van Buren in the electoral college even though he'd won the state.
Elon Musk: "Indeed, great damage was done today to the public’s faith in the American legal system."
Tucker Carlson: "This won’t stop Trump. He’ll win the election if he’s not killed first. But it does mark the end of the fairest justice system in the world. Anyone who defends this verdict is a danger to you and your family."
Mike Johnson: "The decision today is further evidence that Democrats will stop at nothing to silence dissent and crush their political opponents."
Elise Stefanik: "Today’s verdict shows how corrupt, rigged, and unAmerican the weaponized justice system has become."
Ken Paxton: "This is a battle of good versus evil.”
America's conservative movement and Republican Party have shown today that they are, from top to bottom, enemies of the rule of law. They use the word "conservative" but they trash fundamental Western institutions and legal principles. They believe their leader, who they follow in cult-like fashion, should be above the law and face no accountability for his crimes. When conbined with their acceptance of political violence, it is no longer unreasonable to describe them as a fascist movement and a fascist party.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has gone for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if Trump’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
I am not at all convinced the Trump conviction will change the polls overnight but as others have said the impacts, if any, will likely be felt on the margins. Which is particularly important in the Blue Wall states.
The thing that has caught me by surprise so far in this election is how far Biden has slipped in AZ, GA and NV (I appreciate some of this is to do with the immigration topic). I fully expected him to lose GA this time around - the others, I thought he had a decent punt in. The conviction won’t alter his chances in those states alone, he will need to come back with a compelling voter offer to get AZ and NV back in play.
His competing offer is going to be a realisation come election day that the US economy under him is actually going like a train. Trump's "this is the worst economy ever" line is going to look more and more unhinged.
That's obviously the Holyrood list only, though, so different from Westminster (and incomplete without the constituency data which it tends to complement rather than emulate).
Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
OK, I need to ask, what is the distinction between a Boris supporter and a loyalist, given Richi was a major BoZo supporter before during and after his fiasco
That's obviously the Holyrood list only, though, so different from Westminster (and incomplete without the constituency data which it tends to complement rather than emulate).
I wouldn't be so smug to be honest. This country is as divided as I recall it being in my life, certainly since the peak of the Miners strike.
Whether it is the B word, independence in Scotland, weird obsessions with other peoples' bits and what they do with them our society is also falling into camps who only speak to others with abuse. We are a long way behind the US but we face similar perils (as do those who bet assuming that these "independents" form a similar and decisive plank of the US electorate which will result in a rational result).
It will be interesting to see how those who end up on the wrong side of the GE result react. After 14 years in office, how will Conservatives react to defeat and opposition?
There's a line between justifiable criticism of a Government and holding it to account on the one side (an integral part of the democratic process) and obstructive negative criticism from minute one (which I'm sure we'll see from the diehard anti-Labour people on Twitter and from a few on here as well I suspect).
Will anyone who didn't vote Labour wish the new Government well? I will - some will, I fear, be in opposition mode before Starmer is back from the Palace. The truth is the Government is your Government too whether you voted for it or not.
I completely agree and have already wished both Starmer and Reeves every success, despite my doubts, on several occasions. I don't see that changing.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
This is complete bullshit. Trump committed 33 crimes and clearly was guilty of them. He was prosecuted because there was sufficient evidence to convict, as proven by a jury unanimously saying he was guilty. You are arguing he should be above the law.
And the flayling whataboutism by the right on this is just ridiculous. Clinton and Epstein? Donald Trump flew on Epstein's plane, partied with Epstein and Donald Trump's AG oversaw the whitewashing of Epstein's murder. Yet has faced nothing for it. But you ignore the fact Trump haa faced nothing over that because it doesn't suit your narrative. You just don't like the fact the American right's leader has been held accountable over one of his many crimes.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
How is it "a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point" when every juror agreed that he was guilty for 34 charges? Not one juror disagreed across all those charges. Are the jurors part of the conspiracy? Or maybe Donald Trump is a lying crook and justice is finally catching up with him.
This particular case is just one piece of the mosaic. Tho it is itself - AIUI - driven by a district attorney who was elected explicitly to “get Trump”. You think that’s ok because Trump is awful and everyone hates him. But imagine if a case was brought against Biden by a DA elected to “get Biden”
And the bigger picture definitely reveals a “conspiracy” to stop Trump. Take the lab leak hypothesis. One of the reasons it was so vigorously and fraudulently suppressed is because it was associated with Trump and it was felt that if it gained traction it would help Trump in the election
And it might have done - who knows
So democrats put pressure on Facebook and Twitter to silence an entirely plausible theory about the biggest health disaster in global history
You don’t have to be a flat earther to perceive that the left liberal establishment in the USA is out to get Trump. They ARE
And perhaps that is valid - he is a menace to democracy. I can see that argument too
If Biden was guilty of a crime then I absolutely want a DA determined to get Biden - no-one should be above the law, not even Presidents.
Perhaps it’s just my British discomfort about prosecutors being elected to “get” ANYONE
It simply feels wrong. A bad idea
It feels wrong to elect prosecutors full stop but prosecutors being out to "get" criminals is basically their job description.
Biden has arguably broken several laws. Some of them deeply serious. I won’t trouble the PB mods with the detailed rumours that might invite lawyers but they are out there and far from insubstantial
So you’d be ok with a Republican DA being elected on the basis of “getting Biden” and then pursuing him ferociously in this year before the election?
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Art history you say, very good, almost had me.
No. When I knew him in the UK, liberal, urbane. You could imagine him writing for the New Yorker. Probably Lib Dem in terms of UK politics.
I wouldn't be so smug to be honest. This country is as divided as I recall it being in my life, certainly since the peak of the Miners strike.
Whether it is the B word, independence in Scotland, weird obsessions with other peoples' bits and what they do with them our society is also falling into camps who only speak to others with abuse. We are a long way behind the US but we face similar perils (as do those who bet assuming that these "independents" form a similar and decisive plank of the US electorate which will result in a rational result).
It will be interesting to see how those who end up on the wrong side of the GE result react. After 14 years in office, how will Conservatives react to defeat and opposition?
There's a line between justifiable criticism of a Government and holding it to account on the one side (an integral part of the democratic process) and obstructive negative criticism from minute one (which I'm sure we'll see from the diehard anti-Labour people on Twitter and from a few on here as well I suspect).
Will anyone who didn't vote Labour wish the new Government well? I will - some will, I fear, be in opposition mode before Starmer is back from the Palace. The truth is the Government is your Government too whether you voted for it or not.
I completely agree and have already wished both Starmer and Reeves every success, despite my doubts, on several occasions. I don't see that changing.
I don't see doubts about Starmer and Reeves changing either....
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
This is complete bullshit. Trump committed 33 crimes and clearly was guilty of them. He was prosecuted because there was sufficient evidence to convict, as proven by a jury unanimously saying he was guilty. You are arguing he should be above the law.
And the flayling whataboutism by the right on this is just ridiculous. Clinton and Epstein? Donald Trump flew on Epstein's plane, partied with Epstein and Donald Trump's AG oversaw the whitewashing of Epstein's murder. Yet has faced nothing for it. But you ignore the fact Trump haa faced nothing over that because it doesn't suit your narrative. You just don't like the fact the American right's leader has been held accountable over one of his many crimes.
Er, I literally just said “there are good legal cases against Trump” and if “Trump is guilty then he’s guilty” - you’re fighting a shadow of a straw man. In the dark
It’s Trump derangement syndrome. People hate him so much they see him everywhere and emotionally cannot accept there is any merit in any argument that might be perceived as “helping him”
I'm off for a weekend away doing nice things in a bit, if the parties could contrive not to do anything that alters things so I miss out before Sunday evening I would be grateful.
Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
OK, I need to ask, what is the distinction between a Boris supporter and a loyalist, given Richi was a major BoZo supporter before during and after his fiasco
In the sense that Gordon Brown was a major supporter of Tony Blair?
While labour is rightly castigated for parachuting its favoured few into safe seats. Luke Fucking Akehurst will be my MP in a few weeks FFS. The Tories have been doing the same.
Yup, seems Starmer and the NEC are purging Corbynites from winnable Labour seats for loyalists and Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
Presumed loyalists. As you noted, highflyers will not want to sit on the backbenches, and will often have more policy area expertise than ministers.
Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
OK, I need to ask, what is the distinction between a Boris supporter and a loyalist, given Richi was a major BoZo supporter before during and after his fiasco
Why does Sunak need loyalists?
He wont be PM or leader and almost certainly will leave parliament shortly.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
Its how American politics works.
The House GOP have been waging lawfare against Biden since they took control in 2022.
The aim of taking control of Congress isn't just to pass laws but to launch investigations.
Its perhaps an inevitable part of the separation of powers - a party can have control of one part of government, or part of a part, but cannot do anything constructive with it and so engages in something destructive instead.
American politics doesn’t always work this badly. It hasn’t been THIS dysfunctional since the civil war.
1824 was more dysfunctional. Jackson won the popular vote and the electoral college only to lose a three way contingent election in Congress to Adams.
1836 was also pretty fruity when faithless electors from Virginia refused to vote for Van Buren in the electoral college even though he'd won the state.
So you can be a spreadsheet wanker about elections when you want to be then?
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
OK, I need to ask, what is the distinction between a Boris supporter and a loyalist, given Richi was a major BoZo supporter before during and after his fiasco
Remind me of what Boris etc did before the 2019 election!
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
Maybe the best thing the Dems could do is stop reacting to him and react to someone else, like Haley.
Then, all Donald's supporters would flip to them on the basis they annoy/own the Libz.
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
I wouldn't be so smug to be honest. This country is as divided as I recall it being in my life, certainly since the peak of the Miners strike.
Whether it is the B word, independence in Scotland, weird obsessions with other peoples' bits and what they do with them our society is also falling into camps who only speak to others with abuse. We are a long way behind the US but we face similar perils (as do those who bet assuming that these "independents" form a similar and decisive plank of the US electorate which will result in a rational result).
It will be interesting to see how those who end up on the wrong side of the GE result react. After 14 years in office, how will Conservatives react to defeat and opposition?
There's a line between justifiable criticism of a Government and holding it to account on the one side (an integral part of the democratic process) and obstructive negative criticism from minute one (which I'm sure we'll see from the diehard anti-Labour people on Twitter and from a few on here as well I suspect).
Will anyone who didn't vote Labour wish the new Government well? I will - some will, I fear, be in opposition mode before Starmer is back from the Palace. The truth is the Government is your Government too whether you voted for it or not.
I completely agree and have already wished both Starmer and Reeves every success, despite my doubts, on several occasions. I don't see that changing.
I don't see doubts about Starmer and Reeves changing either....
I would be delighted if I was proven wrong, if growth returned to a healthy 3% a year, if our deficit fell and public services improve, if our trade balance came into a modest surplus, if our children were given better opportunities to express themselves and get ahead and housing was no longer splitting this country between the haves and the have nots. Delighted.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has gone for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if Trump’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
You think the Hunter Biden stories AREN't MAGA hat nonsense? Must be something in the Moldovan water.
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
Spot on.
The Dems have won the popular vote in the last two elections. They will in all likelihood win it again this year. They are more than capable of winning the election on their own steam but have let Trumpitis send them nuts,
This hasnt helped their cause at home and abroad leaves them looking a bit Venezuelan
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
It's a bit like Israel/Palestine.
They both react to the others reactions, and diverge out to the extremes, whilst their supporters cheer them on.
That might not be Starmer's intention but that is what it looks like, especially given Abbott's iconic status as Britain's first Black woman MP.
Mrs C and I have just been discussing this. AFAWCS Starmer’s, and Labour’s, best course of action is to welcome Ms A back, let her stand, then let her confine herself to constituency activities for the few years. In any event, she doesn’t seem well.
Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
OK, I need to ask, what is the distinction between a Boris supporter and a loyalist, given Richi was a major BoZo supporter before during and after his fiasco
Why does Sunak need loyalists?
He wont be PM or leader and almost certainly will leave parliament shortly.
Setting the Tory Party up to carry on his glittering endowment.
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
It's a bit like Israel/Palestine.
They both react to the others reactions, and diverge out to the extremes, whilst their supporters cheer them on.
This is complete crap. There is nothing extreme about a Democratic prosecutor bringing charges against a Republican WHEN HE ACTUALLY DID THEM.
Not sure this line helps Faiza Shaheen. She is yesterdays news now. However if this is true then why does she want to stand for labour and has she raised this before ?
@Tomorrow'sMPs @tomorrowsmps · 43m 🔴 SWANSEA WEST: it looks like Resolution Foundation CEO is being lined up for this seat.
====
Wow. Another think tanker parachuting in.
Starmer is brewing a huge problem here imho. All these 'high fliers' he is parachuting in will not want to be backbench vote fodder. They will want to be given worthwhile government jobs and get stuff done. How many experienced MPs hoping for ministerial jobs will now be pushed out of the way for these new kids?
Starmer now seems to be doing a similar thing to a similar thing to Cameron and his A list of candidates pre the 2010 general election.
Pushing out long standing activists and councillors and in Labour's case even deselecting some leftwing MPs and parachuting in high flyers at the top of their careers with little experience of working for the party who yes will expect to be Ministers sooner rather than later rather than just mere backbenchers.
I seem to remember it didn't work out too well for the Tories. A number of the A list have now defected to Labour or the LDs or went to ChangeUK. One A lister, Louise Mensch, even moved to New York city with her pop manager husband just 2 years after election in 2010 after deciding Cameron was not going to put her in the Cabinet and being backbench MP for Corby and dealing with constituents tedious problems at her constituency surgery was too much of a bore
I've talked about this a little from the opposite point of view - the pool of suitable candidates for Labour's front bench is currently bottlenecked, not just because of the poor 2019 result, but also because the Corbynites were in charge of selections between 2015 and 2020.
I'd expect to see plenty of the 2024 intake promoted into junior ministerial roles within the first year of a Labour government - it'll be almost the opposite of what happened to the 1997 intake.
So it's not just new MPs who might end up being disgruntled after being left out - some old hands might find themselves being replaced sooner than they might expect, too. And, who knows, we might see Snowflake5 back on PB!
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
Spot on.
The Dems have won the popular vote in the last two elections. They will in all likelihood win it again this year. They are more than capable of winning the election on their own steam but have let Trumpitis send them nuts,
This hasnt helped their cause at home and abroad leaves them looking a bit Venezuelan
Winning the popular vote doesn’t mean you win the Presidency in the US. Any more than it does winning a Parliamentary majority here.
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
It's a bit like Israel/Palestine.
They both react to the others reactions, and diverge out to the extremes, whilst their supporters cheer them on.
Yes. And just like that hideous argument both sides become deaf to facts or logic. There’s almost no point in debating them - they are so emotionally invested
Fuck knows how America walks back from this cliff edge
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
This isn't what Democratic officials are doing. They are not calling for violence. They are not preventing him from giving speeches. They are bringing correct charges of criminal behaviour through the correct legal channels.
You could make a case they were abusing the justice system and wasting his time if he was not guilty. But he IS guilty, showing they did the correct thing.
What policy do British voters most associate with Rishi Sunak? (28-29 May)
Actually not too bad for Rishi but the economy is a bit small.
It's bad for Sunak because it's essentially just immigration and National Service, and according to polling voters consider immigration to be only the third most important issue, behind the economy and health.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has gone for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if Trump’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
You think the Hunter Biden stories AREN't MAGA hat nonsense? Must be something in the Moldovan water.
Do you think everything outlined here is MAGA nonsense?
Not withstanding the verdict, it is worth remembering that Dukakis had close to 20% leads over Regan in 1984 post conventions.
I think the Democrats have the election they want on their terms. They always wanted Trump, and being pretty much neck and neck at this point is OK, with down ticket Democrat candidates licking their chops and counting their coffers.
Once Trump is out of the picture, it is the 26 mid terms and 28 election that unfortunately will see a full on populist insurgency with a Trump wannabe without the Trump baggage taking full advantage.
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
What foul means?
The documents trial is fair because Trump had ample opportunity to comply with the law but obstructed justice repeatedly and lied again and again.
The pay-off case we know about because Trump's own personal lawyer was on record about what was done. Are prosecutors meant to ignore crimes?
The Georgia election case is where we have Trump recorded asking for votes to be found to help him win.
The federal election case is about Trump's actions before the 2020 election up to the Capital riot. Again this is all due to things Trump has done on record, involving other government officers, and statements made in public.
Maybe if Trump wants to avoid prosecution he should stop brazenly committing crimes so often?
I am starting to prevaricate on my feeling I would like a decent Labour majority, but not a landslide (though there is no way of controlling this).
I have for some time felt a stonking Labour majority would not be ideal, because I do not like the idea of one party having such dominance. I admit that I felt the same way in the 2001-2005 Parliament, particularly.
However, despite his ruthless party management Starmer feels to me a naturally cautious fellow. With a small majority, that would I fear manifest itself in government inertia, when what we really need at the moment is some bold action towards addressing the myriad problems we face. With a larger majority, perhaps he will feel more emboldened to take more risks.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
This isn't what Democratic officials are doing. They are not calling for violence. They are not preventing him from giving speeches. They are bringing correct charges of criminal behaviour through the correct legal channels.
You could make a case they were abusing the justice system and wasting his time if he was not guilty. But he IS guilty, showing they did the correct thing.
FOR THE LAST FUCKING TIME - I’m not arguing about the court cases
I’m talking about the other stuff. Stuff like this:
WASHINGTON—Facebook removed content related to Covid-19 in response to pressure from the Biden administration, including posts claiming the virus was man-made, according to internal company communications viewed by The Wall Street Journal.
I wouldn't be so smug to be honest. This country is as divided as I recall it being in my life, certainly since the peak of the Miners strike.
Whether it is the B word, independence in Scotland, weird obsessions with other peoples' bits and what they do with them our society is also falling into camps who only speak to others with abuse. We are a long way behind the US but we face similar perils (as do those who bet assuming that these "independents" form a similar and decisive plank of the US electorate which will result in a rational result).
It will be interesting to see how those who end up on the wrong side of the GE result react. After 14 years in office, how will Conservatives react to defeat and opposition?
There's a line between justifiable criticism of a Government and holding it to account on the one side (an integral part of the democratic process) and obstructive negative criticism from minute one (which I'm sure we'll see from the diehard anti-Labour people on Twitter and from a few on here as well I suspect).
Will anyone who didn't vote Labour wish the new Government well? I will - some will, I fear, be in opposition mode before Starmer is back from the Palace. The truth is the Government is your Government too whether you voted for it or not.
I completely agree and have already wished both Starmer and Reeves every success, despite my doubts, on several occasions. I don't see that changing.
I don't see doubts about Starmer and Reeves changing either....
I would be delighted if I was proven wrong, if growth returned to a healthy 3% a year, if our deficit fell and public services improve, if our trade balance came into a modest surplus, if our children were given better opportunities to express themselves and get ahead and housing was no longer splitting this country between the haves and the have nots. Delighted.
My view is that growth is likely to be quite healthy up till the end of the decade, and the trade balance might well balance. But, the fundamental problem of having to pay more, in order to receive less, due to a combination of demography and globalisation, will remain. And, in all likelihood, the military budget will have to increase, which is like paying an increased insurance premium - essential, but still painful.
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
It's a bit like Israel/Palestine.
They both react to the others reactions, and diverge out to the extremes, whilst their supporters cheer them on.
Yes. And just like that hideous argument both sides become deaf to facts or logic. There’s almost no point in debating them - they are so emotionally invested
Fuck knows how America walks back from this cliff edge
No, the people being blind to logic here are those claiming that criminal prosecution should not be brought against someone who is guilty of crimes, because he is an important Republican. It is the position of those who want to modify a negative story on the right into a "both sides bullshit" narrative because they know that outright defence of Trump would get laughed out of a serious conversation.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
I am not at all convinced the Trump conviction will change the polls overnight but as others have said the impacts, if any, will likely be felt on the margins. Which is particularly important in the Blue Wall states.
The thing that has caught me by surprise so far in this election is how far Biden has slipped in AZ, GA and NV (I appreciate some of this is to do with the immigration topic). I fully expected him to lose GA this time around - the others, I thought he had a decent punt in. The conviction won’t alter his chances in those states alone, he will need to come back with a compelling voter offer to get AZ and NV back in play.
His competing offer is going to be a realisation come election day that the US economy under him is actually going like a train. Trump's "this is the worst economy ever" line is going to look more and more unhinged.
But it's not the economy any more. That's oldthink. Away from the coasts there's a malaise in American psychology that money alone can't fix. They've woken up from their Dream to discover something's missing and the sheer grinding emptiness of flyover life fuels the desire for disruption. The Dream wasn't just about wealth - it embraced an uplifting spirit of small-town wellbeing that has dwindled to nothing.
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
What foul means?
The documents trial is fair because Trump had ample opportunity to comply with the law but obstructed justice repeatedly and lied again and again.
The pay-off case we know about because Trump's own personal lawyer was on record about what was done. Are prosecutors meant to ignore crimes?
The Georgia election case is where we have Trump recorded asking for votes to be found to help him win.
The federal election case is about Trump's actions before the 2020 election up to the Capital riot. Again this is all due to things Trump has done on record, involving other government officers, and statements made in public.
Maybe if Trump wants to avoid prosecution he should stop brazenly committing crimes so often?
QED. I give up. You’re not even listening so what’s the point
Trump is a crook. He has crookedly conducted his business throughout his career, misusing law suits and committing frauds such as his so called University. He is extremely fortunate not to have been prosecuted before.
Is it legitimate to use the fact that he is a crook to persuade people who might otherwise be tempted not to vote for him? Absolutely.
Is it legitimate to try and extend the law beyond what is recognised just to get him for the greater good? Err...no. That is not the greater good, that is, in the long term, more damaging than Trump himself.
That's obviously the Holyrood list only, though, so different from Westminster (and incomplete without the constituency data which it tends to complement rather than emulate).
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
War was probably coming anyway. Possibly, the Aktion Reinhard phase of the Holocaust would have been avoided, without Hitler. But, plenty of Germans wanted a war of revenge, and blamed Jews for their predicament, and I expect that mass killings would have followed a German invasion of Poland, under any leader.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Trump's blunt refusal to agree to a peaceful transition of power before the election - then doing his utmost to ensure that one didn't happen when the results were in - was the killer for a lot of Americans. I don't think we can appreciate the significance of all that in Britain, perhaps because we don't have loads of firearms and our historical roots involve peaceful stuff like Stonehenge and maypoles, not revolution, civil wars and the slaughter of indigenous peoples.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
Well, that might depend on who replaced him and who used his death to what purpose. Consequences can be hard to see. He might have been replaced by someone very nearly as bad and more competent, for example.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has gone for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if Trump’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
You think the Hunter Biden stories AREN't MAGA hat nonsense? Must be something in the Moldovan water.
Do you think everything outlined here is MAGA nonsense?
Brighton Kemptown and Peacehaven could depend on how Lloyd Russell-Moyle reacts. The last time he released anything was on Wednesday evening suggesting that he was not jumping ship.
I wish Keir Starmer, Angela Rayner, and the Labour team the best of luck and hope to be celebrating Labour wins across Sussex and beyond on election night.
My feeling is if LRM stays with the red team then any annoyance will fade quite quickly.
But I think they’ve snookered their (possibly slim, but not non-existent) chances in Pavilion as their “vote for a local not a London parachute job” line has been sunk - they can’t use it.
They'd have been on stronger ground going for a local councillor, not one of Keir’s mates.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Trump's blunt refusal to agree to a peaceful transition of power before the election - then doing his utmost to ensure that one didn't happen when the results were in - was the killer for a lot of Americans. I don't think we can appreciate the significance of all that in Britain, perhaps because we don't have loads of firearms and our historical roots involve peaceful stuff like Stonehenge and maypoles, not revolution, civil wars and the slaughter of indigenous peoples.
Yes, as I say I can actually see this point of view and I understand why many Americans feel this
But with the same eyes I can also see that people who hate Trump have done some dodgy shit to try and stop him as well as the entirely justified court cases
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
It's probable, especially if the NSDAP dissolved into a squabbling rabble but what if Goebbels had succeeded to the leadership and then been a more effective leader than Hitler was, could the Nazis still rule the bulk of Europe? What if with a NSDAP power vacuum the KPD under Ernst Thälmann had formed a Soviet dictatorship? You never know if the path not taken would have been worse.
Trump remains in a very strong position. Not a done deal, not at all. But he is in a very strong position.
Most of this is due to lies of course. So, even yesterday, he was saying his country had gone to hell and that "millions" of people out of prisons were invading it causing chaos. In the real world violent crime in the US is at a 50 year low. it was last this low in the early 1970s when the population was 100m less. In per capita terms it is astonishingly low. if this huge wave of immigrants is causing a crime spree where are the crimes?
Trump's inevitable answer is that the FBI statistics are "fake news". Well.
Agree. Maybe the most predictable and the most odd thing about yesterday's result (I expected a failure to get all 12 agreeing, and was wrong) is that it doesn't seem to change anything at all. It would be nice to be wrong about that too; but the USA appears to be still in that extraordinary state in which there is no safe, middle, objective, neutral ground in which to boringly evaluate things from the viewpoint of a common core of values. In this it resembles Israel/Palestine.
(Is this is the sort of thing which a mixture of BBC, UK traditions of academia, the monarchy, and a fairly non politicised judiciary help to preserve thus far on our side of the pond, and which the present government has tried to undermine?)
Yes. America is showing us why a politicised legal system can be a really bad idea. The same goes for the ECHR and even our own Supreme Court (a stupid invention anyway)
I think our SC is great and isn’t politicized . I have huge respect for the judges on there. It was the Tories that threatened to politicize the court when they didn’t like certain judgements .
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
Trump is a crook. He has crookedly conducted his business throughout his career, misusing law suits and committing frauds such as his so called University. He is extremely fortunate not to have been prosecuted before.
Is it legitimate to use the fact that he is a crook to persuade people who might otherwise be tempted not to vote for him? Absolutely.
Is it legitimate to try and extend the law beyond what is recognised just to get him for the greater good? Err...no. That is not the greater good, that is, in the long term, more damaging than Trump himself.
Oh come on. You guys are losing your minds. What does the bit on bold even mean?
You just need to get to the the catharsis of BONG, 10pm , 4th July and you'll be fine.
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
What foul means?
The documents trial is fair because Trump had ample opportunity to comply with the law but obstructed justice repeatedly and lied again and again.
The pay-off case we know about because Trump's own personal lawyer was on record about what was done. Are prosecutors meant to ignore crimes?
The Georgia election case is where we have Trump recorded asking for votes to be found to help him win.
The federal election case is about Trump's actions before the 2020 election up to the Capital riot. Again this is all due to things Trump has done on record, involving other government officers, and statements made in public.
Maybe if Trump wants to avoid prosecution he should stop brazenly committing crimes so often?
QED. I give up. You’re not even listening so what’s the point
@leon you didn't answer the question which was 'What foul means?' There might be. I don't know, but what?
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
How is it "a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point" when every juror agreed that he was guilty for 34 charges? Not one juror disagreed across all those charges. Are the jurors part of the conspiracy? Or maybe Donald Trump is a lying crook and justice is finally catching up with him.
This particular case is just one piece of the mosaic. Tho it is itself - AIUI - driven by a district attorney who was elected explicitly to “get Trump”. You think that’s ok because Trump is awful and everyone hates him. But imagine if a case was brought against Biden by a DA elected to “get Biden”
And the bigger picture definitely reveals a “conspiracy” to stop Trump. Take the lab leak hypothesis. One of the reasons it was so vigorously and fraudulently suppressed is because it was associated with Trump and it was felt that if it gained traction it would help Trump in the election
And it might have done - who knows
So democrats put pressure on Facebook and Twitter to silence an entirely plausible theory about the biggest health disaster in global history
You don’t have to be a flat earther to perceive that the left liberal establishment in the USA is out to get Trump. They ARE
And perhaps that is valid - he is a menace to democracy. I can see that argument too
If Biden was guilty of a crime then I absolutely want a DA determined to get Biden - no-one should be above the law, not even Presidents.
The wider problem is related both the customary practise and Trump.
In this case he stupidly committed a number of crimes in silencing a bimbo eruption (TM Bill Clinton). Politicians have silenced bimbos with cash many times before. Probably used campaign cash to do so. The Orange One probably thought that he was just doing the same thing - but he went much further across various lines than he predecessors.
So you have Trump and MAGA screaming that it's unfair "Everyone does this" and the legitimate point that Trump & Co. actually broke the law.
A big part of the MAGA thing is that the political system is corrupt and that Washington is a pile of legalised bribery.
So to the MAGA types, the difference between legalised crime and straight up illegality is just hypocrisy.
The latter being preferable to them - you know where you stand with an honest lying crook. There's a bit of that reverence for the gangster in there too, like with the Krays. People are strange.
Southern Observer on twitter using the racist trope of I have friends who are black .........
and getting well and truly pilloried
JWExTheSpa @SpaJw If the Labour leadership has launched a racist attack on people of colour in its approach to candidate selection, why are so many people of colour being chosen as Labour candidates?
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
This isn't what Democratic officials are doing. They are not calling for violence. They are not preventing him from giving speeches. They are bringing correct charges of criminal behaviour through the correct legal channels.
You could make a case they were abusing the justice system and wasting his time if he was not guilty. But he IS guilty, showing they did the correct thing.
OK
How do the jury convictions of hundreds of sub postmasters fit with your final paragraph? It is necessary *within a given legal system itself* to treat conviction for most purposes as conclusive evidence of guilt (but even there, with all sorts of caveats and grounds for appeal) because otherwise you would be going round in circles. But outside the system that is not true, and it's nonsensical to say he was convicted so he did it so there.
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
Foul means like allowing the most serious cases against him to be deferred until after the election?
@Tomorrow'sMPs @tomorrowsmps · 43m 🔴 SWANSEA WEST: it looks like Resolution Foundation CEO is being lined up for this seat.
====
Wow. Another think tanker parachuting in.
Starmer is brewing a huge problem here imho. All these 'high fliers' he is parachuting in will not want to be backbench vote fodder. They will want to be given worthwhile government jobs and get stuff done. How many experienced MPs hoping for ministerial jobs will now be pushed out of the way for these new kids?
Starmer can’t win with some people, can he? If he sticks with what he has, people will bemoan the “thinness of talent on the Labour front bench”; if he actively recruits talent he is “parachuting in high fliers”.
Seems a decent hire to me.
Don't get me wrong - I think it is a very good hire. Stick him in the Treasury with remit to make it work policy-wise for working people and the poor as Resolution have been arguing for years.
My point is there may well be trouble with existing MPs with so many of these types being parachuted in.
Fair enough. And I dare say Sir Keir doesn’t really care what rump PLPers think. He is ruthless. Good for him.
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
People are trying to stop Trump because he's a crook, that sides with America's enemies, and has done God knows what with America's secrets. They aren't after him simply because he's the Republican opponent. Romney and McCain had none of these issues.
I’ll say it again for the hard of thinking
I agree Trump is a crook I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
It's a bit like Israel/Palestine.
They both react to the others reactions, and diverge out to the extremes, whilst their supporters cheer them on.
Yes. And just like that hideous argument both sides become deaf to facts or logic. There’s almost no point in debating them - they are so emotionally invested
Fuck knows how America walks back from this cliff edge
Michele Sindona. Jeffrey Epstein. That's one way. The "no man, no problem" solution.
It's almost funny to hear managerialist types discuss what's happening or what may transpire with l'affaire Trump. Legitimacy and law and percentages and all that crap.
The pricking of my thumbs tells me Biden is not going to win this election. From a betting POV laying Biden might be a better choice than backing Trump or the generic Republican candidate.
While labour is rightly castigated for parachuting its favoured few into safe seats. Luke Fucking Akehurst will be my MP in a few weeks FFS. The Tories have been doing the same.
Yup, seems Starmer and the NEC are purging Corbynites from winnable Labour seats for loyalists and Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
I am starting to prevaricate on my feeling I would like a decent Labour majority, but not a landslide (though there is no way of controlling this).
I have for some time felt a stonking Labour majority would not be ideal, because I do not like the idea of one party having such dominance. I admit that I felt the same way in the 2001-2005 Parliament, particularly.
However, despite his ruthless party management Starmer feels to me a naturally cautious fellow. With a small majority, that would I fear manifest itself in government inertia, when what we really need at the moment is some bold action towards addressing the myriad problems we face. With a larger majority, perhaps he will feel more emboldened to take more risks.
The problem is that you are basically trying to guess what Starmer really wants to do, and whether he has the leadership ability to take advantage of a large majority. And basically he's a blank sheet of paper. You just don't know.
I think the best argument I can make for a huge Labour victory, or at least for a huge Tory defeat, is that it would create an opening for the Lib Dems to replace the Tories as the main party of the centre-right [of Labour].
The Lib Dems might not take that opportunity, but in the best case scenario the competition between the two parties heads off the Tories from being a party only of the hard right.
Trump is a crook. He has crookedly conducted his business throughout his career, misusing law suits and committing frauds such as his so called University. He is extremely fortunate not to have been prosecuted before.
Is it legitimate to use the fact that he is a crook to persuade people who might otherwise be tempted not to vote for him? Absolutely.
Is it legitimate to try and extend the law beyond what is recognised just to get him for the greater good? Err...no. That is not the greater good, that is, in the long term, more damaging than Trump himself.
Oh come on. You guys are losing your minds. What does the bit on bold even mean?
You just need to get to the the catharsis of BONG, 10pm , 4th July and you'll be fine.
In context I think it refers to the manoeuvre of promoting misdemeanors to felonies for the purpose of bringing this case. There's no doubt that the manoeuvre looks dodgy and bad law
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
The counter-factual is that the Nazis end up led by someone who doesn't make Hitler's many huge mistakes in WWII, and so is able to inflict much more evil.
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
What foul means?
The documents trial is fair because Trump had ample opportunity to comply with the law but obstructed justice repeatedly and lied again and again.
The pay-off case we know about because Trump's own personal lawyer was on record about what was done. Are prosecutors meant to ignore crimes?
The Georgia election case is where we have Trump recorded asking for votes to be found to help him win.
The federal election case is about Trump's actions before the 2020 election up to the Capital riot. Again this is all due to things Trump has done on record, involving other government officers, and statements made in public.
Maybe if Trump wants to avoid prosecution he should stop brazenly committing crimes so often?
QED. I give up. You’re not even listening so what’s the point
@leon you didn't answer the question which was 'What foul means?' There might be. I don't know, but what?
I’ve given one link about the way the Biden admin pressured Facebook and Twitter to suppress the lab leak hypothesis in the election year
As for the Hunter Biden story that is also true, not MAGA nonsense
“Testimony Reveals FBI Employees Who Warned Social Media Companies about Hack and Leak Operation Knew Hunter Biden Laptop Wasn’t Russian Disinformation”
“In the hours following publication of the Post’s story, Twitter blocked the story from being shared, while Facebook deamplified the story, significantly reducing its circulation and prevalence in users’ newsfeeds. As the federal court in Missouri v. Biden explained in damning language, the FBI’s actions prevented millions of Americans from having a clear understanding about a salient issue in the 2020 presidential election:”
My hypothesis is that the basis for a lot of Trump support is a 'gut feeling' that the current situation is existentially bad and that Trump would be a slightly less worse disaster. That point of view makes a lot of sense to me.
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
What foul means?
The documents trial is fair because Trump had ample opportunity to comply with the law but obstructed justice repeatedly and lied again and again.
The pay-off case we know about because Trump's own personal lawyer was on record about what was done. Are prosecutors meant to ignore crimes?
The Georgia election case is where we have Trump recorded asking for votes to be found to help him win.
The federal election case is about Trump's actions before the 2020 election up to the Capital riot. Again this is all due to things Trump has done on record, involving other government officers, and statements made in public.
Maybe if Trump wants to avoid prosecution he should stop brazenly committing crimes so often?
And twice impeached. That it's easy to forget that speaks volumes in itself.
I am starting to prevaricate on my feeling I would like a decent Labour majority, but not a landslide (though there is no way of controlling this).
I have for some time felt a stonking Labour majority would not be ideal, because I do not like the idea of one party having such dominance. I admit that I felt the same way in the 2001-2005 Parliament, particularly.
However, despite his ruthless party management Starmer feels to me a naturally cautious fellow. With a small majority, that would I fear manifest itself in government inertia, when what we really need at the moment is some bold action towards addressing the myriad problems we face. With a larger majority, perhaps he will feel more emboldened to take more risks.
The problem is that you are basically trying to guess what Starmer really wants to do, and whether he has the leadership ability to take advantage of a large majority. And basically he's a blank sheet of paper. You just don't know.
I think the best argument I can make for a huge Labour victory, or at least for a huge Tory defeat, is that it would create an opening for the Lib Dems to replace the Tories as the main party of the centre-right [of Labour].
The Lib Dems might not take that opportunity, but in the best case scenario the competition between the two parties heads off the Tories from being a party only of the hard right.
The Lib Dems have no desire to be a party of the centre right.
Trump is a crook. He has crookedly conducted his business throughout his career, misusing law suits and committing frauds such as his so called University. He is extremely fortunate not to have been prosecuted before.
Is it legitimate to use the fact that he is a crook to persuade people who might otherwise be tempted not to vote for him? Absolutely.
Is it legitimate to try and extend the law beyond what is recognised just to get him for the greater good? Err...no. That is not the greater good, that is, in the long term, more damaging than Trump himself.
Oh come on. You guys are losing your minds. What does the bit on bold even mean?
You just need to get to the the catharsis of BONG, 10pm , 4th July and you'll be fine.
What it means is that there are almost no instances of people being prosecuted for book keeping records before Trump. The entries reflect what happened. Tax was paid on the money. Cohen's repayment was grossed up to allow for that. It was a misdemeanour with a 2 year limitation period at best.
The logic of the prosecution was that these misdemeanours were converted into felonies because they were done for a criminal purpose. What was that purpose? Well, that was left pretty vague and the jury were allowed to have different ideas so long as they agreed that "it" was "bad".
What Trump did (and he lied through his attorneys trying to claim otherwise) was buy off stories that might have caused his political campaign harm. As pretty much all politicians of all stripes have done since the beginning of time. Daniels entered into a NDA for $130k of her own volition. I am just not seeing anything illegal in this. I think this, rather than the credibility of Cohen, will be the issue in the appeal. If it was not illegal the convictions fall. And I still think that will happen.
So, we have 2 ways in which the law has been stretched to cover DJT. I understand the motive but I deprecate undermining the rule of law in this way.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
The counter-factual is that the Nazis end up led by someone who doesn't make Hitler's many huge mistakes in WWII, and so is able to inflict much more evil.
IIRC the ‘Final Solution’ wasn’t, or wasn’t entirely, Hitler’s idea. I may be wrong, though.
While labour is rightly castigated for parachuting its favoured few into safe seats. Luke Fucking Akehurst will be my MP in a few weeks FFS. The Tories have been doing the same.
Yup, seems Starmer and the NEC are purging Corbynites from winnable Labour seats for loyalists and Sunak and CCHQ are similarly largely purging Boris supporters from winnable Conservative seats and pushing in loyalists instead
Smart strategy.
I'm not sure whether you are being ironic. If the leading figures and apparatchiks in the two main parties had been smart AND they'd had enough freedom to do what's supposed to be their job, they wouldn't have found themselves in this position a week after the election date has been announced and a week before the closing date for nominations. This position being there are several constituencies in which they don't have a clue what fuckers will or won't be standing on their respective tickets. Surprising shit just keeps happening from out of the blue.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
Well, that might depend on who replaced him and who used his death to what purpose. Consequences can be hard to see. He might have been replaced by someone very nearly as bad and more competent, for example.
Yes, his rise might have derailed the rise of someone a couple of years younger who might have had the same views but been a much more effective leader during war and listened to generals. So killing him woukd have removed the barrier to Rudolph Shitler, Global Reichsfuhrer 1944 - 1989.
My hypothesis is that the basis for a lot of Trump support is a 'gut feeling' that the current situation is existentially bad and that Trump would be a slightly less worse disaster. That point of view makes a lot of sense to me.
There is good reason for Americans not to be fond of the status quo, and I've long been a critic of the Democrats on the basis that they're a party for the status quo in the US.
But the bits of the status quo that Trump wants to rip up - the rule of law, free and fair elections, freedom to dissent, etc - are not the bits of the status quo I object to.
A couple of my American friends have fallen into the MAGA cesspit. Thankfully no family.
The MAGA line is that this prosecution and the conviction are proof of the conspiracy to steal the election. And even people on the fringes of this believe that.
And it's not just the room temperature IQ crowd - one of the people I know has a PhD in Art History from a UK university. Yet he is fully down with the Orange Baboon.
Both things can be true. Trump is a lying villain who deserves a conviction - true. But there is also a conspiracy to stop him in almost any way, stretching the law to breaking point - also true, or at least arguable
That is why America is in such a dangerous position
I don't think it's a conspiracy in the sense of some clandestine operation. There is a significant body of opinion in the US that Trump is a danger to the continued health and prosperity of the Republic because he is a crook. They are using the legal system to convict him, which is the appropriate thing to do in the case of crooks. They are hoping that by thus demonstrating that he is a crook, they can prevent him being elected president. Is this a conspiracy, or is it the legal system operating precisely as it's meant to? The fact that a jury of Trump's peers vetted by his legal team found him guilty on all counts suggests that the case against him had merit, rather than being an effort to block an honest man from running for president.
I’m not denying there are good legal cases against Trump. Tho I think he can argue that he’s been singled out, notice how no one has for Bill Clinton in regard to Epstein? Nonetheless if he’s guilty he’s guilty. I agree
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
For sure lots of people don't want Trump to be president and are trying to block him from standing. I wouldn't say it's a plot or a conspiracy, it has been conducted entirely openly. I think it is the American system operating as it should. I speak to various Americans all the time who would probably be seen as establishment/ denizens of the swamp/ deep state types by the Maga crowd. In general I think they are genuinely alarmed that a second Trump presidency is a threat to the survival of the United States. In their own mind at least their concern is not for their own privileged position but for the survival of the Republic. Now maybe they are deluding themselves, but what would you do in their shoes?
Yes that’s a good question. And I referenced it earlier
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
Stephen King's novel, The Dead Zone, was very good on this. It is a more complicated moral issue than I think you are indicating.
I don’t think it’s that complex in regards to Hitler. Hitler dead in 1932 leads to a better world in almost every possible way, surely?
The counter-factual is that the Nazis end up led by someone who doesn't make Hitler's many huge mistakes in WWII, and so is able to inflict much more evil.
Hitler's mistakes really only become *his* mistakes after 1943, when in reality, the war has been lost already. Responsibility for things that we see as mistakes, prior to that date, are really shared collectively by the German High Command.
One could easily view taking on France, Poland, and the British Empire simultaneously as a huge mistake. Germany ought to have lost in 1940, and instead, achieved a fluke. That convinced the OKW that they could achieve a similar miracle in the Soviet Union, a year later.
Even as early as Spring 1941, the Royal Naval blockade was doing immense damage to the German economy, to the point that some German planners doubted they could even continue the war after the end of 1942.
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
What foul means?
The documents trial is fair because Trump had ample opportunity to comply with the law but obstructed justice repeatedly and lied again and again.
The pay-off case we know about because Trump's own personal lawyer was on record about what was done. Are prosecutors meant to ignore crimes?
The Georgia election case is where we have Trump recorded asking for votes to be found to help him win.
The federal election case is about Trump's actions before the 2020 election up to the Capital riot. Again this is all due to things Trump has done on record, involving other government officers, and statements made in public.
Maybe if Trump wants to avoid prosecution he should stop brazenly committing crimes so often?
QED. I give up. You’re not even listening so what’s the point
@leon you didn't answer the question which was 'What foul means?' There might be. I don't know, but what?
I’ve given one link about the way the Biden admin pressured Facebook and Twitter to suppress the lab leak hypothesis in the election year
As for the Hunter Biden story that is also true, not MAGA nonsense
“Testimony Reveals FBI Employees Who Warned Social Media Companies about Hack and Leak Operation Knew Hunter Biden Laptop Wasn’t Russian Disinformation”
“In the hours following publication of the Post’s story, Twitter blocked the story from being shared, while Facebook deamplified the story, significantly reducing its circulation and prevalence in users’ newsfeeds. As the federal court in Missouri v. Biden explained in damning language, the FBI’s actions prevented millions of Americans from having a clear understanding about a salient issue in the 2020 presidential election:”
Comments
What policy do British voters most associate with Rishi Sunak? (28-29 May)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/sunak-allies-parachuted-winnable-tory-seats-b2553981.html
Her best chance in 2028 is a Trump clear defeat from which she has clean hands, the GOP base may still want a Trump loyalist even then but at least she then offers a clear choice
So unfair...
But Trump is guilty. Biden may well be too (I don't know the allegations). I'm less bothered though about a Dem Rep DA going after Biden than a Rep DA not going after Trump (or vice versa - Dem DA not going after Biden). At least if the DA has it in for you and you're rich and powerful you get a reasonable fight in court. If the DA is on your side and sufficiently corrupt, you can presumably get away with almost anything.
The thing that has caught me by surprise so far in this election is how far Biden has slipped in AZ, GA and NV (I appreciate some of this is to do with the immigration topic). I fully expected him to lose GA this time around - the others, I thought he had a decent punt in. The conviction won’t alter his chances in those states alone, he will need to come back with a compelling voter offer to get AZ and NV back in play.
What I would oppose is any soft-pedalling on criminality because some of the alleged criminal's supporters would get upset. That path leads to a very dark place.
1836 was also pretty fruity when faithless electors from Virginia refused to vote for Van Buren in the electoral college even though he'd won the state.
Tucker Carlson: "This won’t stop Trump. He’ll win the election if he’s not killed first. But it does mark the end of the fairest justice system in the world. Anyone who defends this verdict is a danger to you and your family."
Mike Johnson: "The decision today is further evidence that Democrats will stop at nothing to silence dissent and crush their political opponents."
Elise Stefanik: "Today’s verdict shows how corrupt, rigged, and unAmerican the weaponized justice system has become."
Ken Paxton: "This is a battle of good versus evil.”
America's conservative movement and Republican Party have shown today that they are, from top to bottom, enemies of the rule of law. They use the word "conservative" but they trash fundamental Western institutions and legal principles. They believe their leader, who they follow in cult-like fashion, should be above the law and face no accountability for his crimes. When conbined with their acceptance of political violence, it is no longer unreasonable to describe them as a fascist movement and a fascist party.
My point is that there is a wider “conspiracy” to prevent Trump in any way. The lab leak hypothesis was suppressed to assist biden in the crucial election year of 2020. Note how lab leak suddenly became plausible again the moment Biden won. Ditto all the Hunter Biden stories. This is not MAGA hat nonsense - it happened
So, sane Americans can sincerely believe there is a plot to stop Trump. Because there is
Nicola Sturgeon comes from Ayrshire.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/starmer-is-purging-women-of-colour/ar-BB1nl8PB
That might not be Starmer's intention but that is what it looks like, especially given Abbott's iconic status as Britain's first Black woman MP.
And the flayling whataboutism by the right on this is just ridiculous. Clinton and Epstein? Donald Trump flew on Epstein's plane, partied with Epstein and Donald Trump's AG oversaw the whitewashing of Epstein's murder. Yet has faced nothing for it. But you ignore the fact Trump haa faced nothing over that because it doesn't suit your narrative. You just don't like the fact the American right's leader has been held accountable over one of his many crimes.
Now, on board the Orange Train.
It’s Trump derangement syndrome. People hate him so much they see him everywhere and emotionally cannot accept there is any merit in any argument that might be perceived as “helping him”
He wont be PM or leader and almost certainly will leave parliament shortly.
Congratulations: you're on the right site.
Then, all Donald's supporters would flip to them on the basis they annoy/own the Libz.
I agree Trump is a crook
I agree he is far too pally with evil dictators
I agree he’s a twat in multiple other ways
None of this means that there is not a joint endeavour to stop him by foul means as well as fair. There is indeed such an endeavour
And this is why America is a bit fucked. It would be much better if the democrats had pursued Trump by wholly legitimate means. But they didn’t
https://x.com/lbc/status/1796477486517170300?s=46
The Dems have won the popular vote in the last two elections. They will in all likelihood win it again this year. They are more than capable of winning the election on their own steam but have let Trumpitis send them nuts,
This hasnt helped their cause at home and abroad leaves them looking a bit Venezuelan
If you think Trump is a potential danger to democracy itself - almost a Hitler in the making - then any means of stopping him becomes morally legitimate. I think this is what democrats have in fact done in their heads. They’ve demonised him so much they’ve justified stuff like the lab leak and Hunter Biden crap, if it stops or hobbles Trump it’s ok - just do it
And you know what? I can see that point of view. I’m not sure I share it but I get the logic
If any of us could go back in time and murder Hitler in 1932 we would surely do it. And feel justified and righteous
They both react to the others reactions, and diverge out to the extremes, whilst their supporters cheer them on.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/ex-labour-candidate-faiza-shaheen-says-she-faced-racism-islamophobia-and-bullying-from-inside-party/ar-BB1nlLYh?ocid=entnewsntp&pc=U531&cvid=56f192318e2a44439352cb76f34b37ec&ei=12
I'd expect to see plenty of the 2024 intake promoted into junior ministerial roles within the first year of a Labour government - it'll be almost the opposite of what happened to the 1997 intake.
So it's not just new MPs who might end up being disgruntled after being left out - some old hands might find themselves being replaced sooner than they might expect, too. And, who knows, we might see Snowflake5 back on PB!
Fuck knows how America walks back from this cliff edge
You could make a case they were abusing the justice system and wasting his time if he was not guilty. But he IS guilty, showing they did the correct thing.
https://oversight.house.gov/the-bidens-influence-peddling-timeline/
I think the Democrats have the election they want on their terms. They always wanted Trump, and being pretty much neck and neck at this point is OK, with down ticket Democrat candidates licking their chops and counting their coffers.
Once Trump is out of the picture, it is the 26 mid terms and 28 election that unfortunately will see a full on populist insurgency with a Trump wannabe without the Trump baggage taking full advantage.
The documents trial is fair because Trump had ample opportunity to comply with the law but obstructed justice repeatedly and lied again and again.
The pay-off case we know about because Trump's own personal lawyer was on record about what was done. Are prosecutors meant to ignore crimes?
The Georgia election case is where we have Trump recorded asking for votes to be found to help him win.
The federal election case is about Trump's actions before the 2020 election up to the Capital riot. Again this is all due to things Trump has done on record, involving other government officers, and statements made in public.
Maybe if Trump wants to avoid prosecution he should stop brazenly committing crimes so often?
I have for some time felt a stonking Labour majority would not be ideal, because I do not like the idea of one party having such dominance. I admit that I felt the same way in the 2001-2005 Parliament, particularly.
However, despite his ruthless party management Starmer feels to me a naturally cautious fellow. With a small majority, that would I fear manifest itself in government inertia, when what we really need at the moment is some bold action towards addressing the myriad problems we face. With a larger majority, perhaps he will feel more emboldened to take more risks.
I’m talking about the other stuff. Stuff like this:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/facebook-bowed-to-white-house-pressure-removed-covid-posts-2df436b7
WASHINGTON—Facebook removed content related to Covid-19 in response to pressure from the Biden administration, including posts claiming the virus was man-made, according to internal company communications viewed by The Wall Street Journal.
Trump is a crook. He has crookedly conducted his business throughout his career, misusing law suits and committing frauds such as his so called University. He is extremely fortunate not to have been prosecuted before.
Is it legitimate to use the fact that he is a crook to persuade people who might otherwise be tempted not to vote for him? Absolutely.
Is it legitimate to try and extend the law beyond what is recognised just to get him for the greater good? Err...no. That is not the greater good, that is, in the long term, more damaging than Trump himself.
They'd have been on stronger ground going for a local councillor, not one of Keir’s mates.
But with the same eyes I can also see that people who hate Trump have done some dodgy shit to try and stop him as well as the entirely justified court cases
You just need to get to the the catharsis of BONG, 10pm , 4th July and you'll be fine.
and getting well and truly pilloried
JWExTheSpa
@SpaJw
If the Labour leadership has launched a racist attack on people of colour in its approach to candidate selection, why are so many people of colour being chosen as Labour candidates?
How do the jury convictions of hundreds of sub postmasters fit with your final paragraph? It is necessary *within a given legal system itself* to treat conviction for most purposes as conclusive evidence of guilt (but even there, with all sorts of caveats and grounds for appeal) because otherwise you would be going round in circles. But outside the system that is not true, and it's nonsensical to say he was convicted so he did it so there.
Jeffrey Epstein.
That's one way. The "no man, no problem" solution.
It's almost funny to hear managerialist types discuss what's happening or what may transpire with l'affaire Trump. Legitimacy and law and percentages and all that crap.
The pricking of my thumbs tells me Biden is not going to win this election. From a betting POV laying Biden might be a better choice than backing Trump or the generic Republican candidate.
I think the best argument I can make for a huge Labour victory, or at least for a huge Tory defeat, is that it would create an opening for the Lib Dems to replace the Tories as the main party of the centre-right [of Labour].
The Lib Dems might not take that opportunity, but in the best case scenario the competition between the two parties heads off the Tories from being a party only of the hard right.
As for the Hunter Biden story that is also true, not MAGA nonsense
“Testimony Reveals FBI Employees Who Warned Social Media Companies about Hack and Leak Operation Knew Hunter Biden Laptop Wasn’t Russian Disinformation”
“In the hours following publication of the Post’s story, Twitter blocked the story from being shared, while Facebook deamplified the story, significantly reducing its circulation and prevalence in users’ newsfeeds. As the federal court in Missouri v. Biden explained in damning language, the FBI’s actions prevented millions of Americans from having a clear understanding about a salient issue in the 2020 presidential election:”
http://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/testimony-reveals-fbi-employees-who-warned-social-media-companies-about-hack
@Sunil_Prasannan thought you'd appreciate this
As an autistic man it upsets me when politicians pretend to be excited about taking a train, our culture is not your costume.
The logic of the prosecution was that these misdemeanours were converted into felonies because they were done for a criminal purpose. What was that purpose? Well, that was left pretty vague and the jury were allowed to have different ideas so long as they agreed that "it" was "bad".
What Trump did (and he lied through his attorneys trying to claim otherwise) was buy off stories that might have caused his political campaign harm. As pretty much all politicians of all stripes have done since the beginning of time. Daniels entered into a NDA for $130k of her own volition. I am just not seeing anything illegal in this. I think this, rather than the credibility of Cohen, will be the issue in the appeal. If it was not illegal the convictions fall. And I still think that will happen.
So, we have 2 ways in which the law has been stretched to cover DJT. I understand the motive but I deprecate undermining the rule of law in this way.
I may be wrong, though.
But the bits of the status quo that Trump wants to rip up - the rule of law, free and fair elections, freedom to dissent, etc - are not the bits of the status quo I object to.
https://benryan.substack.com/p/why-special-interest-groups-are-motivated
One could easily view taking on France, Poland, and the British Empire simultaneously as a huge mistake. Germany ought to have lost in 1940, and instead, achieved a fluke. That convinced the OKW that they could achieve a similar miracle in the Soviet Union, a year later.
Even as early as Spring 1941, the Royal Naval blockade was doing immense damage to the German economy, to the point that some German planners doubted they could even continue the war after the end of 1942.