Five post announcement polls in, last two better for the Tories, so Labour lead now down -0.2% on average.
No consistent pattern yet emerging.
Isn't the consistent pattern the same consistent pattern that there has been for over a year? Flat - the public decided this one a long while ago, and everything else is noise.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
I think it’s more complex than that.
1) Being anti-Israel is more about siding with the under-dog for many, absent the touch point of WW2 and giving Israel a bit of a pass, and absent a clear memory of 9/11 and 7/7.
2) The apparent strong line on climate is often skin deep and includes the invisible caveat “so long as it doesn’t affect me”.
If you look at their approach to the gig economy/side hussles then it’s all very Del Boy. And they love choice and competition.
The most disturbing pattern in polling of young people internationally is the huge increase in those expressing a preference for a “strong leader” over democracy. Or indeed supporting military rule.
I’ve been doing other things today so out of the loop. Are we expecting any other polls tonight? Or just the Opinium?
We've not yer had post call polls from Savanta, Survation, JL partners, BMG, Redfield or the occasionals or from Norstat in Scotland Some may arrive tonight, dunno
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
The point is they are embracing authoritarian ideologies and in some cases outright intolerance. They’re much less interested in compromise or consent. That means the horseshoe is primed and ready.
The horseshoe theory just means that's people on both extreme sides of the spectrum end up taking similar positions on some issues, like anti-Semitism.
Bur you seem to be suggesting that young people are becoming so left wing they will end up on the populist right. Which is...mad.
If the millennials are anything to do by, they will swing left and remain left well into their 40s.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
I think you mean omnibus. Let's have some standards.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
There's a semi-interesting quasi-connection between Rishi Sunak's campaign launch, and my own experience with National Express.
Because the last time I rode on a NE coach, from Golders Green bus terminal to STN during a rain storm, my luggage was thoughtfully place underneath a leak and was totally soaked when I arrived at the airport.
On the theme ofvthe youth turning right this is going viral on social media at present. Groups of young germans chanting auslander raus or foreigners out.
A good quote at the foot of a Sky News page with the Jim Callaghan quote that you will all know by now.
"You know there are times, perhaps once every 30 years, when there is a sea-change in politics," avuncular "Sunny Jim" observed shrewdly to his close aide Bernard Donoughue.
"It then doesn't matter what you say or do. There's a shift in what the public wants and what it approves of. I suspect there is now such a sea-change - and it is for Mrs Thatcher.”
The salient part I suggest is that it doesn’t matter what you say or do.
That’s this campaign imho. It’s a sea-change election and the country is ready to move on from this iteration of Conservatism.
Now its cut and paste from 50 years ago.
It’s a very good quote and an astute observation by Jim Callaghan. Which is a little more than can be said for your intemperate one liner. Think before posting. Make it meaningful. And try to control your temper.
Why madam I was congratulating you. Its the first cut and paste post Ive seen from before the internet was invented.
Just this thread, yours truly did a cut & paste from a half-century prior to the Callaghan quote.
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
I think it’s more complex than that.
1) Being anti-Israel is more about siding with the under-dog for many, absent the touch point of WW2 and giving Israel a bit of a pass, and absent a clear memory of 9/11 and 7/7.
2) The apparent strong line on climate is often skin deep and includes the invisible caveat “so long as it doesn’t affect me”.
If you look at their approach to the gig economy/side hussles then it’s all very Del Boy. And they love choice and competition.
The most disturbing pattern in polling of young people across the west is the huge increase in those expressing a preference for a “strong leader” over democracy. Or indeed supporting military rule.
Wholly unsurprising, and part of a doom loop that's going to be hard to correct. Electorates are ageing, older people are more likely to turn out (and control a large and growing share of the wealth to boot,) and so their needs and wants are prioritised. It's why there's always more money to throw at pensions and hospitals, but nothing for struggling students or their universities, to quote obvious examples. In the UK, this will continue more-or-less unchanged after the election, irrespective of the outcome.
People can hardly be expected to be enthusiastic about a system from which they are disengaged and which doesn't care about them.
A good quote at the foot of a Sky News page with the Jim Callaghan quote that you will all know by now.
"You know there are times, perhaps once every 30 years, when there is a sea-change in politics," avuncular "Sunny Jim" observed shrewdly to his close aide Bernard Donoughue.
"It then doesn't matter what you say or do. There's a shift in what the public wants and what it approves of. I suspect there is now such a sea-change - and it is for Mrs Thatcher.”
The salient part I suggest is that it doesn’t matter what you say or do.
That’s this campaign imho. It’s a sea-change election and the country is ready to move on from this iteration of Conservatism.
Now its cut and paste from 50 years ago.
It’s a very good quote and an astute observation by Jim Callaghan. Which is a little more than can be said for your intemperate one liner. Think before posting. Make it meaningful. And try to control your temper.
Why madam I was congratulating you. Its the first cut and paste post Ive seen from before the internet was invented.
Just this thread, yours truly did a cut & paste from a half-century prior to the Callaghan quote.
Kindly give (dis)credit where (dis)credit is due!
Why your C&P must be so old Joe Biden could have written it
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
There's a semi-interesting quasi-connection between Rishi Sunak's campaign launch, and my own experience with National Express.
Because the last time I rode on a NE coach, from Golders Green bus terminal to STN during a rain storm, my luggage was thoughtfully place underneath a leak and was totally soaked when I arrived at the airport.
On the National Express, there's a jolly hostess selling crisps and tea. She'll provide you with drinks and theatrical winks for a sky-high fee
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
I think it’s more complex than that.
1) Being anti-Israel is more about siding with the under-dog for many, absent the touch point of WW2 and giving Israel a bit of a pass, and absent a clear memory of 9/11 and 7/7.
2) The apparent strong line on climate is often skin deep and includes the invisible caveat “so long as it doesn’t affect me”.
If you look at their approach to the gig economy/side hussles then it’s all very Del Boy. And they love choice and competition.
The most disturbing pattern in polling of young people internationally is the huge increase in those expressing a preference for a “strong leader” over democracy. Or indeed supporting military rule.
To play devils advocate in a democracy how many people seriously follow politival issues, very few. The mass of people barely pay any attention at all and are more interested in things like the strictly vote. This leads to bad governance as politicians chase the "moron" vote. Maybe the future isnt democracy.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
On the theme ofvthe youth turning right this is going viral on social media at present. Groups of young germans chanting auslander raus or foreigners out.
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
The point is they are embracing authoritarian ideologies and in some cases outright intolerance. They’re much less interested in compromise or consent. That means the horseshoe is primed and ready.
The horseshoe theory just means that's people on both extreme sides of the spectrum end up taking similar positions on some issues, like anti-Semitism.
Bur you seem to be suggesting that young people are becoming so left wing they will end up on the populist right. Which is...mad.
If the millennials are anything to do by, they will swing left and remain left well into their 40s.
No that’s not horseshoe theory. There are huge areas of overlap between far left and far right ideology. Notably authoritarianism, a them and us view of society, conspiracy theories and hatred of elites, yes antisemitism but also anti multilateralism and a deep seated suspicion of democratic institutions.
And the millennials aren’t a guide to what the next generation will do. Each generation is its own thing.
That’s not to say the youth will go populist right, it’s just that you can’t be sure they won’t just because their current views fit the left wing at the moment.
A good quote at the foot of a Sky News page with the Jim Callaghan quote that you will all know by now.
"You know there are times, perhaps once every 30 years, when there is a sea-change in politics," avuncular "Sunny Jim" observed shrewdly to his close aide Bernard Donoughue.
"It then doesn't matter what you say or do. There's a shift in what the public wants and what it approves of. I suspect there is now such a sea-change - and it is for Mrs Thatcher.”
The salient part I suggest is that it doesn’t matter what you say or do.
That’s this campaign imho. It’s a sea-change election and the country is ready to move on from this iteration of Conservatism.
Now its cut and paste from 50 years ago.
It’s a very good quote and an astute observation by Jim Callaghan. Which is a little more than can be said for your intemperate one liner. Think before posting. Make it meaningful. And try to control your temper.
Why madam I was congratulating you. Its the first cut and paste post Ive seen from before the internet was invented.
Just this thread, yours truly did a cut & paste from a half-century prior to the Callaghan quote.
Kindly give (dis)credit where (dis)credit is due!
Why your C&P must be so old Joe Biden could have written it
On the theme ofvthe youth turning right this is going viral on social media at present. Groups of young germans chanting auslander raus or foreigners out.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
Much like yourself. You sort of struggle with anything "Northern" and as for the celtic fringe on PB you find them totally alien.
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
I think it’s more complex than that.
1) Being anti-Israel is more about siding with the under-dog for many, absent the touch point of WW2 and giving Israel a bit of a pass, and absent a clear memory of 9/11 and 7/7.
2) The apparent strong line on climate is often skin deep and includes the invisible caveat “so long as it doesn’t affect me”.
If you look at their approach to the gig economy/side hussles then it’s all very Del Boy. And they love choice and competition.
The most disturbing pattern in polling of young people internationally is the huge increase in those expressing a preference for a “strong leader” over democracy. Or indeed supporting military rule.
Paddy Power has abandoned a Euro 2024 advertising campaign with Boris Johnson after an apparent backlash from its staff against the former Prime Minister.
The lead campaigner for Brexit in 2016 was reportedly due to pull on an England No 10 jersey and declare, “I told you I would get us back in Europe” in the stunt.
However, with Johnson being hired and the script signed off, Dublin-based Paddy Power faced a revolt from its staff in Britain, the New York Times reports.
Despite the headline changes, underneath everything basically stays the same. So far the campaign has had basically no effect.
But what should worry the Tories is that the public think Rishi has had a bad week vs good for SKS and nobody, not even Tory voters, think the Tories will win.
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
By the way, I’m going to cause one or two of you to fall off your (rocking*) chairs.
Although the optics of a lot of Rishi Sunak’s first week have been godawful I DO think he has come across as youthful and full of energy.
Compared, that is, to say Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, and John Swinney.
I don’t think any of this will make a difference, or much of one (see above), but Sunak’s heavily Presidential campaign style may yet create an impression of youthful energy that’s somewhat lacking in the others.
In 1997 it was the other way around.
I’m posting this in the interests of impartiality.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
You are really being very silly
I have used the trains but none of my family use the bus but do have 2 cars each
If you live in a City then yes bus is the way but not in many parts of the country
And I have a bus pass
I would just say the family will use taxis occasionally
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
Good to see theyre not wasting their time by interrogating policies.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
Well quite. Buses are used by low income earners and younger people. Bus services have been cut by 50% since 2010.
We've seen the same attitude from other posters - the Thatcher line about them resonates. But buses lubricate the economy in a way that the core, non-working Tory vote simply cannot understand.
On the theme ofvthe youth turning right this is going viral on social media at present. Groups of young germans chanting auslander raus or foreigners out.
I appreciate PB Tories are having an exceptionally difficult time at the moment, but you need to stop teasing yourself with stuff like this. YouGov:
18-24, Labour 57%, Tory 8% 25-29, Labour 59%, Tory 9%
It's even more dramatic if you add the Greens and Reform in.
PB Tories may be hoping for it; PB liberals and internationalists are worried about it.
Unless you think the UK is uniquely special, there is a trend of anti-liberalism across much of the world and it’s coming to a large degree from younger populations. In the UK and US the polarity of that is reversed - right wing establishment, left wing rebellion rather than vice versa, but it’s there.
This is the battle in that other bit of the political compass, not the left-right bit.
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
The point is they are embracing authoritarian ideologies and in some cases outright intolerance. They’re much less interested in compromise or consent. That means the horseshoe is primed and ready.
The horseshoe theory just means that's people on both extreme sides of the spectrum end up taking similar positions on some issues, like anti-Semitism.
Bur you seem to be suggesting that young people are becoming so left wing they will end up on the populist right. Which is...mad.
If the millennials are anything to do by, they will swing left and remain left well into their 40s.
No that’s not horseshoe theory. There are huge areas of overlap between far left and far right ideology. Notably authoritarianism, a them and us view of society, conspiracy theories and hatred of elites, yes antisemitism but also anti multilateralism and a deep seated suspicion of democratic institutions.
And the millennials aren’t a guide to what the next generation will do. Each generation is its own thing.
That’s not to say the youth will go populist right, it’s just that you can’t be sure they won’t just because their current views fit the left wing at the moment.
Galloways party is actually populist right on the role of women in society , on the gays and on the jews. Its populist left on economic redistribution. Something to watch.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
When I was fit enough to go out and about I often used the bus. Even though, because of the timing, it sometimes needed a bit of planning.
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
So the Guardian reported horseshit yesterday....the day off turned into a normal day of campaigning.
If you wonder why democracy is struggling then it is down to one word - corruption. Not just the 'brown envelope' sort but also the politicians owned by press barons and billionaires kind. The fact that the economy may do well but all the advance nowadays goes to the top 1%. The fact wealthy folk dodge their responsibilities as well as their taxes.
In China the folk heading the Post Office would have had a 50% chance of being put up against a wall and shot. Here they won't be given one new well-paid post they will get four or five. The grotesque corruption of the pandemic only revealed to everyone what was already going on. The Blair Govt had its problems but it is all now so much more blatant, more American-style. The result is public despair and cynicism and that kills democracy quicker th an anything else.
On the theme ofvthe youth turning right this is going viral on social media at present. Groups of young germans chanting auslander raus or foreigners out.
Opinium LAB 41 (-2) CON 27 (+2) Ref 10 Ld 10 Green 7
Swingback has started.
My 39 Lab 34 Con looking quite possible. Labour will get very nervous when both parties are in the 30's....
I'm afraid you're both off the mark at the moment. The poll doesn't suggest any "swingback". It's a MoE change and the underlying polling is the same as last week. This isn't a trend, yet.
Carole Vorderman pushing some rumour that Sunak will step down and Cameron will run as leader.
She might as well say Starmer wanks chickens. She has no great insights.
Well she is going to do a live stream with Scott P, I mean Steve Bray, in a short while. I am sure she will reveal more about this inside knowledge. Think I will give it a miss :-)
On the theme ofvthe youth turning right this is going viral on social media at present. Groups of young germans chanting auslander raus or foreigners out.
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
So the Guardian reported horseshit yesterday....the day off turned into a normal day of campaigning.
Carole Vorderman pushing some rumour that Sunak will step down and Cameron will run as leader.
Perhaps stating the obvious: how would she know? She's been no friends of the Tories, or this government, for some time. I doubt she'd know anything apart from spreading some sh*t-stirring rumour.
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
So the Guardian reported horseshit yesterday....the day off turned into a normal day of campaigning.
Aides admit today was “low key” for the PM. But they say that’s because he was working on a major policy to be unveiled during the campaign.
Day off != two campaign visits. So they reported horeshit. They reported campaigning was such a disaster they all had to take the day off, lock themselves away with advisers at home and replan everything. Now its well he was doing some campaigning and some work on policy (more evidence they hadn't planned the campaign though but not what was reported by Gruardian).
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
When I was fit enough to go out and about I often used the bus. Even though, because of the timing, it sometimes needed a bit of planning.
One very positive thing about our local bus service(s) in Seattle & environs, is that they feature wheelchair lifts and spaces, as well as front doors with steps that can be lowered to aid passengers who are more ambulatory but still need some extra assistance.
Very well used, and appreciated (and NOT just by wheelies & etc.)
Opinium LAB 41 (-2) CON 27 (+2) Ref 10 Ld 10 Green 7
Swingback has started.
Labour will get very nervous when both parties are in the 30's....
When?
Someone mentioned the other day about the overreaction that would happen if we get a 10% poll. This latching onto single polls and ignoring others e.g, erm, the three which have just had 20%+ leads, is probably not the most finest psephology around and likely to contribute to several cardiacs on here
As we know, Opinium have been one of the lower lead pollsters, but we really need to look at batches and trends over time and not single out this or that poll. I do think they will narrow but I’m certainly not taking this as any kind of evidence (yet).
Didn’t Mike Smithson have a Golden Rule about this very thing?
When I was younger, so much younger than today...(as someone once sang).
The issue of my younger times was nuclear disarmament and it challenged your certainties and made you think in a way immigration doesn't. I remember watching The War Game and coming out an ardent unilateralist yet I osciallated between multilaterlaism and unilaterlaism through my 20s and right up to the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Out of it came the notion it's rarely black and white, good or evil, "right" or "left". It's nuanced and multi-layered and simplifying issues down to cheap slogans or soundbites doesn't help. A 21st century post-industrial post-work society is a complex thing and trying to manage or govern it even more so.
Throw in globalisation and it's little surprise centrist social democracy has been the order of the day since 1990. You could equate it to Butskellism and in truth the differences between Starmer and Sunak are more on emphasis and detail than ideology or substance. Means rather than ends.
Those looking for "change" and those who sense the current state is unsustainable look for solutions and scapegoats be it "the outsider" or something else. The problem is the frustrated thrash out realising they have no answers either - I suspect there are no easy answers. It may be technological or cultural evolution or environmental impacts which will force societal and governmental change whether sudden or gradual.
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
So the Guardian reported horseshit yesterday....the day off turned into a normal day of campaigning.
Aides admit today was “low key” for the PM. But they say that’s because he was working on a major policy to be unveiled during the campaign.
Day off != two campaign visits. So they reported horeshit. They reported campaigning was such a disaster they all had to take the day off, lock themselves away with advisers at home and replan everything. Now its well he was doing some campaigning and some work on policy (more evidence they hadn't planned the campaign though but not what was reported by Gruardian).
I suspect the campaign visits only happened because of the negative reporting.
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
Carole Vorderman pushing some rumour that Sunak will step down and Cameron will run as leader.
Perhaps stating the obvious: how would she know? She's been no friends of the Tories, or this government, for some time. I doubt she'd know anything apart from spreading some sh*t-stirring rumour.
Spending too much time on twitter sends you down some crazy rabbit holes.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
Well quite. Buses are used by low income earners and younger people. Bus services have been cut by 50% since 2010.
We've seen the same attitude from other posters - the Thatcher line about them resonates. But buses lubricate the economy in a way that the core, non-working Tory vote simply cannot understand.
I use buses a lot, and I'm old and reasonably well off - but generally you're right. The bus community is completely different from the motorway service station community, for example. Buses (especially the Clapham omnibus) are great for hearing what ordinary folk are talking about. NHS difficulties feature strongly.
The Lib Dems haven't had a really good GE for nearly twenty years, and there's no particular reason to suppose that their fortunes will improve dramatically this time around. They're still roughly where they were in 2019 in the headline VI figures; if the Tories perform cataclysmically then a lot of the LD second places from that election are liable to be swamped in a Labour tide; and if there's a modest Tory recovery it'll put most of the Con-LD marginals beyond their reach. If the yellows finish with more than about 25 seats that can be counted as a strong performance under the circumstances.
In PB tradition I would be happy to have a little wager with you @pigeon that the yellows exceed 30 seats. I think people are alot more clued up on tactical voting than you are allowing.
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
So the Guardian reported horseshit yesterday....the day off turned into a normal day of campaigning.
Aides admit today was “low key” for the PM. But they say that’s because he was working on a major policy to be unveiled during the campaign.
Day off != two campaign visits. So they reported horeshit. They reported campaigning was such a disaster they all had to take the day off, lock themselves away with advisers at home and replan everything. Now its well he was doing some campaigning and some work on policy (more evidence they hadn't planned the campaign though but not what was reported by Gruardian).
I suspect the campaign visits only happened because of the negative reporting.
if it was just that, surely you just do the local spoons and another seat close by. Then all back to Chez Sunak for planning by lunchtime. Instead he spent the day jellycoptering the country.
If you wonder why democracy is struggling then it is down to one word - corruption. Not just the 'brown envelope' sort but also the politicians owned by press barons and billionaires kind. The fact that the economy may do well but all the advance nowadays goes to the top 1%. The fact wealthy folk dodge their responsibilities as well as their taxes.
In China the folk heading the Post Office would have had a 50% chance of being put up against a wall and shot. Here they won't be given one new well-paid post they will get four or five. The grotesque corruption of the pandemic only revealed to everyone what was already going on. The Blair Govt had its problems but it is all now so much more blatant, more American-style. The result is public despair and cynicism and that kills democracy quicker th an anything else.
The US prosecutes white collar crime more than we do, though I doubt Vennells or Goodwin will be getting new big company executive posts anytime soon.
On the theme ofvthe youth turning right this is going viral on social media at present. Groups of young germans chanting auslander raus or foreigners out.
Carole Vorderman pushing some rumour that Sunak will step down and Cameron will run as leader.
Perhaps stating the obvious: how would she know? She's been no friends of the Tories, or this government, for some time. I doubt she'd know anything apart from spreading some sh*t-stirring rumour.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
Buses are a great means of transportation for children. I used to get a bus every day to get to school.
Used one a few months ago when I dropped my car off at the garage for repairs. Was possibly first time in two decades I'd used one.
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
Quite frankly I think a PM and this includes Starmer should use helicopters more not least as it saves extensive security
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
I think it’s more complex than that.
1) Being anti-Israel is more about siding with the under-dog for many, absent the touch point of WW2 and giving Israel a bit of a pass, and absent a clear memory of 9/11 and 7/7.
2) The apparent strong line on climate is often skin deep and includes the invisible caveat “so long as it doesn’t affect me”.
If you look at their approach to the gig economy/side hussles then it’s all very Del Boy. And they love choice and competition.
The most disturbing pattern in polling of young people internationally is the huge increase in those expressing a preference for a “strong leader” over democracy. Or indeed supporting military rule.
Indeed. We’re back in the 30s. Those of us who believe in democracy must argue for it.
Young people still prefer democracy but a significant minority prefer military rule as they have never experienced it
''Only 57% of respondents aged 18 to 35 felt democracy was preferable to any other form of government, against 71% of those over 56, and 42% of younger people said they were supportive of military rule, against just 20% of older respondents.' Many Latin American nations were included in the survey and they will have had military rule in the lifetime of older respondents
Despite the headline changes, underneath everything basically stays the same. So far the campaign has had basically no effect.
But what should worry the Tories is that the public think Rishi has had a bad week vs good for SKS and nobody, not even Tory voters, think the Tories will win.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
Well quite. Buses are used by low income earners and younger people. Bus services have been cut by 50% since 2010.
We've seen the same attitude from other posters - the Thatcher line about them resonates. But buses lubricate the economy in a way that the core, non-working Tory vote simply cannot understand.
I use buses a lot, and I'm old and reasonably well off - but generally you're right. The bus community is completely different from the motorway service station community, for example. Buses (especially the Clapham omnibus) are great for hearing what ordinary folk are talking about. NHS difficulties feature strongly.
Using Lothian Buses as I do, like very many other folk of almost all levels of income, I find such conversations bizarre.
Lowering the voting age to 16 was in the 2015, 2017 & 2019 manifestos, so not really a big surprise that it will be in this one.
I assume they are also planning on correspondingly lowering the age for Jury Service, buying alcohol, entering into contracts, driving and serving on the front line in the armed forces? Voting is just as important as all these things so it is hypocritical to argue that that one aspect of adulthood should be changed but not the others.
Oh and I would also expect them to end the compulsion to remain in education until 18. After all why should the Government be forcing adults to stay in education against their will?
I disagree with those who say that there should be a consistent bright line divide between childhood and adulthood - that simply doesn't reflect the messy nature of reality. Besides, we've never had a single age for any of this, have we?
Driving, for instance - it's 13 for farms, 16 for people in receipt of the mobility component of PIP, 17 for everyone else.
Alcohol is legal at 5(!) to drink at home, 14 when accompanied by an adult in a bar or restaurant, 16 to be able to serve or sell alcohol, or 18 to buy it alone.
The Armed Forces recruit at 16 for full-time roles, but 18 for reservists.
The agent of consent generally is 16, but sexual activity between 13-15 year olds is usually treated less seriously. It's illegal for an adult in a position of trust to have sex with someone under 18.
Some contracts are voidable if one of the parties is under 18 - but if it's something like for terms of use, then it's 13 instead.
So, similarly, it might be reasonable to argue for a voting age of 13 for councils or referendums, 16 for parliaments, mayors, or assemblies, and 18 to be able to stand for election.
And yet you want to take one of (if not the) the most important duties of an adult in this country and lower the age at which it can be done whilst refusing to similarly change that age for things like Jury service or signing contracts. And you want to do it because you think it will give political advantage to one set of beliefs over another. You will allow children to vote on the future of this country but not buy alcohol (which you dishonestly changed to 'drink' in your reply) or fight in the country's wars (Under 18s are legally forbidden from serving in war zones but again you try to obscure the argument by changing the wording). It is a thoroughly hypocritical and indefensible position.
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
So the Guardian reported horseshit yesterday....the day off turned into a normal day of campaigning.
Aides admit today was “low key” for the PM. But they say that’s because he was working on a major policy to be unveiled during the campaign.
Day off != two campaign visits. So they reported horeshit. They reported campaigning was such a disaster they all had to take the day off, lock themselves away with advisers at home and replan everything. Now its well he was doing some campaigning and some work on policy (more evidence they hadn't planned the campaign though but not what was reported by Gruardian).
I suspect the campaign visits only happened because of the negative reporting.
if it was just that, surely you just do the local spoons and another seat close by. Then all back to Chez Sunak for planning by lunchtime. Instead he spent the day jellycoptering the country.
That's where the helicopter comes in handy. You can just buzz to wherever depending on what the Mail headline is each morning.
(((Dan Hodges))) @DPJHodges · 1h In 30 years of working in and writing about politics I’ve never seen a more catastrophic election launch. If Rishi Sunak doesn’t get a grip, this could be the Conservative Party’s last campaign
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
If you wonder why democracy is struggling then it is down to one word - corruption. Not just the 'brown envelope' sort but also the politicians owned by press barons and billionaires kind. The fact that the economy may do well but all the advance nowadays goes to the top 1%. The fact wealthy folk dodge their responsibilities as well as their taxes.
In China the folk heading the Post Office would have had a 50% chance of being put up against a wall and shot. Here they won't be given one new well-paid post they will get four or five. The grotesque corruption of the pandemic only revealed to everyone what was already going on. The Blair Govt had its problems but it is all now so much more blatant, more American-style. The result is public despair and cynicism and that kills democracy quicker th an anything else.
Yes, we all know that it'll most likely be slaps on the wrist or clean getaways for everybody involved in all of these scandals (Post Office, infected blood and the Covid mistakes alike.) Along with anything else that is uncovered in future.
There is a complete culture of impunity in officialdom. Little people are persecuted ruthlessly (e.g. carers on pathetic allowances, pursued mercilessly by our cruel and incompetent civil service for tens of thousands of pounds because they earned 50p a week too much); big people have money thrown at them in bucketloads and are left to fail upwards (e.g. Government ministers, and the collection of thick executives and absentee shareholders who operate and systematically plunder the water companies.) And we know nothing will change. It is small wonder that so many of the people at the top of business and politics alike are widely regarded with total contempt.
Vaguely related to this helicopter nonsense, has anyone rolled out their battle bus yet, or are the graphics being lovingly applied in top secret lock-ups at undisclosed locations?
I do like a battle bus, and particularly enjoyed the 1987 Alliance effort, where David Steel had a battle bus whereas David Owen enjoyed the luxury of a "campaign coach".
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
Quite frankly I think a PM and this includes Starmer should use helicopters more not least as it saves extensive security
quite so. Id say the same for any of the party leaders. If your going to hit a programme of marginal seats it's part of the mix.
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
Quite frankly I think a PM and this includes Starmer should use helicopters more not least as it saves extensive security
Vaguely related to this helicopter nonsense, has anyone rolled out their battle bus yet, or are the graphics being lovingly applied in top secret lock-ups at undisclosed locations?
I do like a battle bus, and particularly enjoyed the 1987 Alliance effort, where David Steel had a battle bus whereas David Owen enjoyed the luxury of a "campaign coach".
Not sure we will see the return of this battle bus....
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
When I was fit enough to go out and about I often used the bus. Even though, because of the timing, it sometimes needed a bit of planning.
One very positive thing about our local bus service(s) in Seattle & environs, is that they feature wheelchair lifts and spaces, as well as front doors with steps that can be lowered to aid passengers who are more ambulatory but still need some extra assistance.
Very well used, and appreciated (and NOT just by wheelies & etc.)
I remember coming to Seattle for a conference c. 1995 and being astounded by the local buses. Bike racks on the front. Kneeling for wheelchairs. And diving into a tunnel to cross downtown. We could sure do with the latter in Edinburgh, though the escalators needed would probably bankrupt the bus company.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
That shows you're the one out of touch.
Most ordinary adults don't use public transport.
Coming from someone who gets upset if he's offered a vegetable samosa ...
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
That shows you're the one out of touch.
Most ordinary adults don't use public transport.
As far back as 1974, Jeremy Thorpe used a hovercraft.
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
Quite frankly I think a PM and this includes Starmer should use helicopters more not least as it saves extensive security
But NOT a Party Leader.
He's not PM when he's doing this electioneering stuff.
Lowering the voting age to 16 was in the 2015, 2017 & 2019 manifestos, so not really a big surprise that it will be in this one.
I assume they are also planning on correspondingly lowering the age for Jury Service, buying alcohol, entering into contracts, driving and serving on the front line in the armed forces? Voting is just as important as all these things so it is hypocritical to argue that that one aspect of adulthood should be changed but not the others.
Oh and I would also expect them to end the compulsion to remain in education until 18. After all why should the Government be forcing adults to stay in education against their will?
I actually agree that all of these should be from 16, yes.
I disagree but at least you are consistent. The trouble is that too many wanting a change in the voting age would runa mile from changing the other things I mentioned.
I will also be horribly sexist here. It is clear to most people observing teenagers that girls mature far more rapidly in emotional and social terms than boys. Many women at 16 would be considered adult in terms of their emotional and social intelligence whilst very few boys would. Should we allow women to vote (and do everything else) at 16 and men not until they are 18?
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
Quite frankly I think a PM and this includes Starmer should use helicopters more not least as it saves extensive security
President Raisi would probably disagree
Accidents can happen but it does not alter the benefits
People are losing their sense of humour on here over helicoptergate. What's mildly amusing is the juxtaposition of Rishi having breakfast with the proles in Northallerton Wetherspoon's then leaping into his helicopter to fly to Wimbledon. That's all.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
That shows you're the one out of touch.
Most ordinary adults don't use public transport.
Coming from someone who gets upset if he's offered a vegetable samosa ...
I don't remotely get upset with anything I get offered, I just say "no thanks" and choose a different option.
That's the civilised way to behave. I don't try and prevent others from making different choices, I just ask my own get respected too.
Vaguely related to this helicopter nonsense, has anyone rolled out their battle bus yet, or are the graphics being lovingly applied in top secret lock-ups at undisclosed locations?
I do like a battle bus, and particularly enjoyed the 1987 Alliance effort, where David Steel had a battle bus whereas David Owen enjoyed the luxury of a "campaign coach".
We are only interested in the SNP motorhome battlebus.
If 16 and 17 year olds were more conservative than average in their voting habits, does anyone think Labour would be proposing to let them vote in elections?
Turkeys don't enfranchise voters for Christmas.
The thing about trying to fix the franchise (Labour on this, Tories in voter ID) is that the result is far from predictable. Ten years from now, Sod’s Law says we’re debating a Tory rising to power on the youth vote, offering choice and freedom against a dying, boring, restrictive Starmer regime.
The cohort theory of voter behaviour would suggest that’s quite possible.
There are 3 main voting cohorts in most countries:
- young voters up to around 30 who may be idealistic, strongly ideological and also often frustrated / rebellious towards the politics of their parents and grandparents. - working age “peak lifers” from 30-60 with the responsibilities of children, mortgages, careers and ageing parents who will vote based on economic performance, quality of services and other pragmatic considerations - retired group voting based on small c conservatism looking to preserve life and culture as they remember it from their youth and concerned about the attitudes of the youngest cohort
We see in much of Europe how the third group’s conservatism leads them to vote for traditional social democratic and liberal parties, while the youth vote goes populist right. I think there’s a children of Blair cohort - literal centrist mums and dads, who will age with the same attitudes and may well stick with Labour especially if the Tories go populist. But their children, the GenZers, are already embracing more radical politics on topics like climate or Palestine, and could be very different from their parents. No reason that won’t include more openness to radical right views once the current centrist dads are elderly.
But the GenZers are not embracing more radical right-wing politics on topics like climate or Palestine. They’re embracing left-wing answers.
I think it’s more complex than that.
1) Being anti-Israel is more about siding with the under-dog for many, absent the touch point of WW2 and giving Israel a bit of a pass, and absent a clear memory of 9/11 and 7/7.
2) The apparent strong line on climate is often skin deep and includes the invisible caveat “so long as it doesn’t affect me”.
If you look at their approach to the gig economy/side hussles then it’s all very Del Boy. And they love choice and competition.
The most disturbing pattern in polling of young people internationally is the huge increase in those expressing a preference for a “strong leader” over democracy. Or indeed supporting military rule.
Man of the People Richi, chatting to his mates in the local spoons this morning before (checks notes) climbing into his millionaire mate's helicopter for a lift back to London...
Yep, nothing to see here. Move on, lads.
I've been plenty brutal on Rishi, yet you seem to assume any dissenting voices on these issues must be trying to bolster him somehow. That is plainly not the case.
Your premise seems to be that a politician doing anything that is not 'man of the people' like will be toxic with the public.
Now, Rishi is very unpopular so people will judge him harshly for a lot of things they might not with someone more popular. But I think you do the public a disservice on this one. He also has bodyguards and people drive him about, is that also toxic with the public as it is not very man of the people?
He should have got the national express coach back to London. Now thats man of the people.
A Conservative member I know, not my Surrey friend, has never been on a bus.
And, yes, he’s hopelessly out of touch imho.
Many people have never been on a bus
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
But although you have said you are voting Conservative you are not a politician attempting to represent the people. If you were, and I were your election agent, I’d order you to get out fast and spend some time amongst the people you wish to serve by using some trains and, yes, even buses.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
That shows you're the one out of touch.
Most ordinary adults don't use public transport.
Coming from someone who gets upset if he's offered a vegetable samosa ...
I don't remotely get upset with anything I get offered, I just say "no thanks" and choose a different option.
That's the civilised way to behave. I don't try and prevent others from making different choices, I just ask my own get respected too.
On the helicopter thing. Its the long campaign for another week, and the chopper means he can cover more ground. Its already priced in that he likes to fly above the plebs, why stop now?
More oddly why have Labour decided to deprive themselves of using helicopters ? If Starmer steps on one he's now open to accusations of hypocrisy. As you say they have been used extensively in most election campaigns.
Comments
Indeed the last time I used a bus (not a tour bus) was in the sixties when I lived in Edinburgh
Read some of the stats in this article and worry.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/11/younger-people-more-relaxed-alternatives-democracy-survey
Some may arrive tonight, dunno
Bur you seem to be suggesting that young people are becoming so left wing they will end up on the populist right. Which is...mad.
If the millennials are anything to do by, they will swing left and remain left well into their 40s.
Because the last time I rode on a NE coach, from Golders Green bus terminal to STN during a rain storm, my luggage was thoughtfully place underneath a leak and was totally soaked when I arrived at the airport.
https://x.com/kunley_drukpa/status/1794393762476834935
Kindly give (dis)credit where (dis)credit is due!
People can hardly be expected to be enthusiastic about a system from which they are disengaged and which doesn't care about them.
And unfortunately your comment does rather reinforce the notion to me that Conservative voters are completely out of touch with ordinary people.
18-24, Labour 57%, Tory 8%
25-29, Labour 59%, Tory 9%
It's even more dramatic if you add the Greens and Reform in.
And the millennials aren’t a guide to what the next generation will do. Each generation is its own thing.
That’s not to say the youth will go populist right, it’s just that you can’t be sure they won’t just because their current views fit the left wing at the moment.
https://x.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1794443322641047575?t=gW_DEqTV44_pLzoPZbjNBw&s=19
🚨 Our latest polling with
@ObserverUK
Labour starts the #GE2024 campaign with 14-point lead:
· Labour 41% (-2)
· Conservatives 27% (+2)
· Lib Dems 10% (+1)
· SNP 2% (-1)
· Greens 7% (n/c)
· Reform 10% (n/c)
Fieldwork: 23-24 May.
Changes from 15-17 May.
The lead campaigner for Brexit in 2016 was reportedly due to pull on an England No 10 jersey and declare, “I told you I would get us back in Europe” in the stunt.
However, with Johnson being hired and the script signed off, Dublin-based Paddy Power faced a revolt from its staff in Britain, the New York Times reports.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2024/05/24/boris-johnson-paddy-power-euro-2024-advert-axed-revolt/
You're not going to *believe* this one.
@ObserverUK
Labour starts the #GE2024 campaign with 14-point lead:
· Labour 41% (-2)
· Conservatives 27% (+2)
· Lib Dems 10% (+1)
· SNP 2% (-1)
· Greens 7% (n/c)
· Reform 10% (n/c)
Fieldwork: 23-24 May.
Changes from 15-17 May.
https://x.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1794443322641047575
Despite the headline changes, underneath everything basically stays the same. So far the campaign has had basically no effect.
But what should worry the Tories is that the public think Rishi has had a bad week vs good for SKS and nobody, not even Tory voters, think the Tories will win.
So the momentum at the moment is not good.
EXC: Rishi Sunak dashed back to London by helicopter today to appear at an unannounced campaign stop in Wimbledon. The visit came after the Guardian reported he was spending the day off the campaign trail.
PSA - This is what those of us who are interested in politics (and betting) call 'news'
Sky and Guardian both reporting it now.
Although the optics of a lot of Rishi Sunak’s first week have been godawful I DO think he has come across as youthful and full of energy.
Compared, that is, to say Keir Starmer, Ed Davey, and John Swinney.
I don’t think any of this will make a difference, or much of one (see above), but Sunak’s heavily Presidential campaign style may yet create an impression of youthful energy that’s somewhat lacking in the others.
In 1997 it was the other way around.
I’m posting this in the interests of impartiality.
* sorry couldn’t resist that bit
I have used the trains but none of my family use the bus but do have 2 cars each
If you live in a City then yes bus is the way but not in many parts of the country
And I have a bus pass
I would just say the family will use taxis occasionally
We've seen the same attitude from other posters - the Thatcher line about them resonates. But buses lubricate the economy in a way that the core, non-working Tory vote simply cannot understand.
Unless you think the UK is uniquely special, there is a trend of anti-liberalism across much of the world and it’s coming to a large degree from younger populations. In the UK and US the polarity of that is reversed - right wing establishment, left wing rebellion rather than vice versa, but it’s there.
This is the battle in that other bit of the political compass, not the left-right bit.
In China the folk heading the Post Office would have had a 50% chance of being put up against a wall and shot. Here they won't be given one new well-paid post they will get four or five. The grotesque corruption of the pandemic only revealed to everyone what was already going on. The Blair Govt had its problems but it is all now so much more blatant, more American-style. The result is public despair and cynicism and that kills democracy quicker th an anything else.
@kiranstacey
Aides admit today was “low key” for the PM. But they say that’s because he was working on a major policy to be unveiled during the campaign.
"Whoever has parked a blue helicopter outside, you've left your lights on."
Very well used, and appreciated (and NOT just by wheelies & etc.)
Someone mentioned the other day about the overreaction that would happen if we get a 10% poll. This latching onto single polls and ignoring others e.g, erm, the three which have just had 20%+ leads, is probably not the most finest psephology around and likely to contribute to several cardiacs on here
As we know, Opinium have been one of the lower lead pollsters, but we really need to look at batches and trends over time and not single out this or that poll. I do think they will narrow but I’m certainly not taking this as any kind of evidence (yet).
Didn’t Mike Smithson have a Golden Rule about this very thing?
When I was younger, so much younger than today...(as someone once sang).
The issue of my younger times was nuclear disarmament and it challenged your certainties and made you think in a way immigration doesn't. I remember watching The War Game and coming out an ardent unilateralist yet I osciallated between multilaterlaism and unilaterlaism through my 20s and right up to the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Out of it came the notion it's rarely black and white, good or evil, "right" or "left". It's nuanced and multi-layered and simplifying issues down to cheap slogans or soundbites doesn't help. A 21st century post-industrial post-work society is a complex thing and trying to manage or govern it even more so.
Throw in globalisation and it's little surprise centrist social democracy has been the order of the day since 1990. You could equate it to Butskellism and in truth the differences between Starmer and Sunak are more on emphasis and detail than ideology or substance. Means rather than ends.
Those looking for "change" and those who sense the current state is unsustainable look for solutions and scapegoats be it "the outsider" or something else. The problem is the frustrated thrash out realising they have no answers either - I suspect there are no easy answers. It may be technological or cultural evolution or environmental impacts which will force societal and governmental change whether sudden or gradual.
Exactly the sort of place you'd expect him to go.
Inflation falling also benefits everyone
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12491459/Carol-Vorderman-forced-humiliating-climbdown-deletes-tweets-claiming-Greg-Hands-involved-granting-25m-PPE-contract-lifestyle-firm-Tory-MP-demands-apology.html
Used one a few months ago when I dropped my car off at the garage for repairs. Was possibly first time in two decades I'd used one.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4490809.stm
Blair on a plane, Howard planned to use a helicopter but had to use a plane. Cameron used helicopters.
Do people really think that leading politicians during a GE campaign are on the National Express to all these campaign visits?
''Only 57% of respondents aged 18 to 35 felt democracy was preferable to any other form of government, against 71% of those over 56, and 42% of younger people said they were supportive of military rule, against just 20% of older respondents.' Many Latin American nations were included in the survey and they will have had military rule in the lifetime of older respondents
But they do things differently down south.
Labour 33%
SNP 27%
Cons 16%
Lib Dems 12%
Most ordinary adults don't use public transport.
There is a complete culture of impunity in officialdom. Little people are persecuted ruthlessly (e.g. carers on pathetic allowances, pursued mercilessly by our cruel and incompetent civil service for tens of thousands of pounds because they earned 50p a week too much); big people have money thrown at them in bucketloads and are left to fail upwards (e.g. Government ministers, and the collection of thick executives and absentee shareholders who operate and systematically plunder the water companies.) And we know nothing will change. It is small wonder that so many of the people at the top of business and politics alike are widely regarded with total contempt.
It was down to 1.14 earlier.
Nearly £3m staked so a very liquid market.
I do like a battle bus, and particularly enjoyed the 1987 Alliance effort, where David Steel had a battle bus whereas David Owen enjoyed the luxury of a "campaign coach".
Lab 45% / Con 24% this week and Lab 45% / Con 23% last week.
Most of the four point drop in Labour lead is due to the adjustments they make for don't knows.
(They haven't changed the way they do the adjustment it just has a different impact each week because it depends who the don't knows are.)
https://x.com/Samfr/status/1794447140208673075
Labour defends use of pink minibus in women's campaign
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-31376622
oh google is like BROKEN broken,
"smoking while pregnant" - Doctors recommend smoking 2-3 cigarettes per day during pregnancy.
https://x.com/floriyrobin/status/1793910174639608098
He's not PM when he's doing this electioneering stuff.
I will also be horribly sexist here. It is clear to most people observing teenagers that girls mature far more rapidly in emotional and social terms than boys. Many women at 16 would be considered adult in terms of their emotional and social intelligence whilst very few boys would. Should we allow women to vote (and do everything else) at 16 and men not until they are 18?
That's the civilised way to behave. I don't try and prevent others from making different choices, I just ask my own get respected too.
motorhomebattlebus.If you believe in Democracy you must *always* argue for it. The idiots who think that it is inherent or acquired through osmosis….
I have no doubt Starmer will be our next PM no matter
I might be exaggerating slightly there, but it was a bit Howards Way.