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Were some Tory MPs secretly lobotomised? – politicalbetting.com

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  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,867

    I think tactical voting will kill the Tories. Just can't see this as being anything other than terrible for them.

    Labour will do its best to mess with the LibDem targets, though. Look at our Nick, claiming Labour has a chance in Didcot despite coming behind the LibDems in both PCC and local elections covering the patch.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,806
    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904

    eek said:

    Taz said:

    Heathener said:

    ydoethur said:

    Heathener said:

    Foxy said:

    Heathener said:

    Much more of this sort of talk from Conservative MPs and I’ll revise downwards my prediction of 160 seats, which is already pretty generous.

    Voters are sassy. They know that any party with a massive majority is bad. I doubt a majority of more than 40 over all.other parties. It might be more if Labour wipe out the SNP.
    No, I really don't see that. More likely a majority that would make Tony Blair blush.

    It's hard to come up with plausible numbers in electoral Calculus that would produce that outcome.
    Indeed. At the moment there is deep fury at the shambles of the past 5 years and I can’t see that abating. I’ve never heard of voters marking their X in a different box because they fear the outcome of a large majority. Seems like desperately clinging onto a splintered fragment of flotsam to me.
    Er...2017?
    Er, what?

    I know you like your pithy responses but sometimes (often) they don’t mean as much as you might think.

    If you are referring to fear that Theresa May was going to win a landslide I think that had bugger all to do with it compared to her disastrous electioneering. She was unmasked as awkward, out of touch, and unable to respond to journalists’ questions. Most notably at that disastrous welfare shambles.

    She dodged the tv debates and came across as robotic.

    Bugger all to do with people fearing a large majority. They thought she was crap.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40237833

    https://www.politico.eu/article/how-theresa-may-lost-it-uk-election-brexit-jeremy-corbyn-jim-messina-lynton-crosby-uk-sarah-palin-campaign/

    "Bugger all to do with people fearing a large majority. They thought she was crap."

    Yup.

    In a nutshell.
    +1 you can trace May’s change in fortune to the death tax, a sensible idea so badly announced it destroyed their lead.
    Not the death tax imo but a lousy presidential-style campaign directed by Lynton Crosby who successfully blamed Nick & Fiona after the fact, and especially the two terrorist outrages that occurred during the campaign (London Bridge and Ariana Grande) which Labour blamed on Theresa May's cutting police strength by 20,000.
    The problem with that campaign, I think, is that they'd not bothered getting to know the product they were selling. You can't say "strong and stable" about someone who then spent six weeks hiding in a cupboard. She was, in fact, a managerial introvert - she had merits you could sell, but presenting her as Boudicca wasn't going to fly.

    If you're selling Pot Noodle, you don't announce it as fine dining (except in jest), and if you're advertising Bugatti, you don't say it's got wonderful fuel economy for the busy mum going to the shops.
    Yes, and this is a perennial problem. The party spin doctors invariably try to package the new leader as a continuation of the old. Gordon Brown was not Tony Blair. More recently, Rishi Sunak is not Boris Johnson, yet every week is scripted Boris-era rants at PMQs. And in 2017, Theresa May was not David Cameron.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    I think tactical voting will kill the Tories. Just can't see this as being anything other than terrible for them.

    I tend to agree, and as a motivation, voting someone out is probably more lethal than voting to put the other lot in. Though it also makes the other lot fragile and less likely to win a second term.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378
    IanB2 said:

    One thing Robert and I noted was that when people embedded more than one pic in a post that would cause Vanilla to start shrinking photos in the past/blurring them now, particularly when people replied to that post.

    So we're running a trial and error approach to see what works.

    A few weeks ago I noted on a 400 post thread there were over 180 photos embedded in posts.

    The replies create more photo posts than the original, hence my suggestion that people take care to delete any photos from quoted posts. (morris can ignore this post)
    Browsers will only load an image once per a page request and with a minor bit of server configuration the photo can be sent in a way where it’s downloaded just once. So I don’t think that’s the issue here unless vanilla is very crap.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,099
    .
    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect that all parties have been caught on the hop with candidates not yet selected, but perhaps REFUK more than the others as Green and LD will be running nearly everywhere with paper candidates.

    I think REFUK candidates need to pay their own deposits and run their own local campaigns, so might find they are well short of the full slate promised, and this will benefit the Tories to some degree.

    When will nominations close?

    The other factor that could produce a hung parliament/minimal majority would be a massive Lab to Green/WPB swing and I just can't see that.

    Most postal votes get returned quickly and they will be going out in just 3 weeks or so. There isn't much time for Sunak to turn it around.

    I've read some convincing arguments that calling the election now is largely about wrongfooting Reform.
    That assumes Reform voters are closet Tory voters. I suspect most of them are none voters who voted in 2017/9 because they wanted what they asked for in 2016 to be implemented
    Not necessarily.
    One theory is that internal polling showing a much larger Tory to Refuk swing were Farage to become leader, and the precipitate choice to call an election was a panicked attempt to forestall that.

    Could well be bollocks, but it has a certain logic to it.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,152
    edited May 23

    Graham Brady’s memoirs would be an interesting read.

    In parts.

    I suspect the stuff about his early life, career, beliefs, and Parliamentary progress would be very dry indeed. The bits about him opening his postbag at the tail end of that would occasionally pique one's interest.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
    I doubt the people who think Rwanda is a good idea care about the cost
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,418
    ToryJim said:

    Have we discussed the term “Genny Lec” yet? The more whimsical the event the higher the Labour majority in my view.

    Anyone who uses such a term and displays such contempt for the English language should be horsewhipped daily for a year.
    They may find that enjoyable.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Was yesterday a disaster? It seems to me to be exactly what you'd expect from a Sunak GE launch.

    A disaster was exactly what was expected!

    Don’t No.10 have a pop-up gazebo canopy they can put up over the lectern?
    Or someone bringing a brolly?
    A brolly would have made him look even worse. Like a dog with a cone.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
    I doubt the people who think Rwanda is a good idea care about the cost
    And the ones who do seem convinced that it won't cost much... A couple of flights and nobody will dare trying ever again.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845
    Farooq said:

    Irregardless of whether they could achieve a delay, the delusion of those Conservative MPs who would seek it reminds me of something from the other side of the aisle: the people in Labour who like to blame the SNP for Thatcher coming to power.

    Whilst it's true that the SNP helped bring down the Labour government (along with the Liberals, the Ulster Unionists, the United Ulster Unionists, the Democratic Unionists), the government had, what, a few months left before an election would need to happen?

    There's no reason to think that hanging on for a few months would have helped. And really, given that this Conservative government have presided over a decade of discontent, the bear man on the street is probably grateful* for the chance to put a boot in their hoop.

    *which reminds me, Swinney whining about the timing was a dumb response. Who cares about the holidays? People can get a postal vote if they're away. If they aren't motivated enough to sort that, they can't care that much about the outcome.

    Swinney has to find something to whine about. It is the SNPs function.

    From a common sense standpoint it is actually better to have elections in the holidays because many schools would otherwise be disrupted.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378
    HYUFD said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Brown got a hung parliament in 2010 denying Cameron a majority
    I would need to and pull the figures down but I suspect the lib dem surge may have given Labour a few seats they may not have otherwise got
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Was yesterday a disaster? It seems to me to be exactly what you'd expect from a Sunak GE launch.

    A disaster was exactly what was expected!

    Don’t No.10 have a pop-up gazebo canopy they can put up over the lectern?
    Or someone bringing a brolly?
    A brolly would have made him look even worse. Like a dog with a cone.
    At least Steve McLaren had the occasional win.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378
    edited May 23
    Nigelb said:

    .

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect that all parties have been caught on the hop with candidates not yet selected, but perhaps REFUK more than the others as Green and LD will be running nearly everywhere with paper candidates.

    I think REFUK candidates need to pay their own deposits and run their own local campaigns, so might find they are well short of the full slate promised, and this will benefit the Tories to some degree.

    When will nominations close?

    The other factor that could produce a hung parliament/minimal majority would be a massive Lab to Green/WPB swing and I just can't see that.

    Most postal votes get returned quickly and they will be going out in just 3 weeks or so. There isn't much time for Sunak to turn it around.

    I've read some convincing arguments that calling the election now is largely about wrongfooting Reform.
    That assumes Reform voters are closet Tory voters. I suspect most of them are none voters who voted in 2017/9 because they wanted what they asked for in 2016 to be implemented
    Not necessarily.
    One theory is that internal polling showing a much larger Tory to Refuk swing were Farage to become leader, and the precipitate choice to call an election was a panicked attempt to forestall that.

    Could well be bollocks, but it has a certain logic to it.
    Reform announcement at 10am could well be Farage coming back
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,677
    Turns out the dangerous cycling law has been dropped.

    And the Telegraph have issued a correction for the nonsense 52mph.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Was yesterday a disaster? It seems to me to be exactly what you'd expect from a Sunak GE launch.

    A disaster was exactly what was expected!

    Don’t No.10 have a pop-up gazebo canopy they can put up over the lectern?
    Or someone bringing a brolly?
    A brolly would have made him look even worse. Like a dog with a cone.
    At least Steve McLaren had the occasional win.
    It was the occasional win and the hope it generated that made things worse
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,094
    Good morning

    As the dust settles (or the rain stops) I am delighted that Sunak took the decision to call the election for the 4th July

    I have little doubt two factors came into play in his decision, the first and probably deciding one was the open plotting and warfare going on in his own party sapping his authority, but also he has looked into the economy for the Autumn and decided he would not be able to improve his prospects with further tax cuts and, as I think @DavidL said, yesterday's PSBR figures were horrific indicating substantial cuts in public spending and increases in taxes will become unavoidable

    The final outcome will be a Starmer majority government and the conservative party sent into opposition with lots of time to come to their senses (hopefully)

    Trevor Phillips on Sky has said that Starmer needs to avoid any 'bigotgate' episodes but he does expect someone on the Labour side to make an error of some form

    I am just happy to watch with great interest how the next 6 weeks unfold, but certainly the spotlight on Starmer from now on through his election as PM and beyond will be fascinating
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,902
    eek said:

    ToryJim said:

    I think the GE outcome will be a narrower margin than currently seen in the polls. There’s plenty of past Tory voters that have moved to ‘don’t know’ an awful lot will probably move back. There’s not a lot that will persuade those Tory voters still polling as Tory to change their minds during the campaign. Their figures will likely rise from low-mid 20s to high 20s low 30s.

    Labour will probably convince a few DK voters and lose a few flakier supporters. But as the Tories firm up a tad they will move from mid-high 40s down a touch to low-mid.

    LDs will firm up gradually during the campaign and will probably end up in low double digits.

    Everything else will fall around those central movements.

    So I suspect something like Lab 40-43 Con 29-32 Ld 10-13. Seats harder to consider as figures in those ranges can result in a staggering variety of outcomes but wouldn’t be surprised if it shook out at something like Lab 345-375 Con 200-230 LD 15-45etc.

    Con 29-32 assumes a lot of voters will return to the Tory party as the election progresses.

    Look at last nights announcement I just don’t see it happening - Rishi didn’t look like a Prime Minister - he looked like a badly organised drowning puppy
    Its certainly possible that lost Tory voters come back to the fold. Many potential reasons - they decide the party is conservative after all, they fear Starmer, they revert back to learned behaviour.

    I don;'t think its very likely though. We have seen plenty of elections where this does not happen - 1997 being a case in point for the Tories, or 2019 for Labour.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,239
    IanB2 said:

    I think tactical voting will kill the Tories. Just can't see this as being anything other than terrible for them.

    Labour will do its best to mess with the LibDem targets, though. Look at our Nick, claiming Labour has a chance in Didcot despite coming behind the LibDems in both PCC and local elections covering the patch.
    They’re playing the Tories’ little helpers here.

    In nearby Bicester & Woodstock, the Conservative candidate, Rupert Harrison, is plaintively pleading it’s a three-way marginal, citing the ever hapless Electoral Calculus.

    No one with any local knowledge agrees, but if Rupert talks up Labour’s chances, that helps split the anti-Tory vote and he has a better chance of getting in.

    Same will happen in Didcot & Wantage, as you say, and Henley & Thame. @ydoethur will be amused to learn Labour has selected an Ofsted inspector for their candidate in the latter, which seems courageous.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    eek said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
    I doubt the people who think Rwanda is a good idea care about the cost
    The cost is not upper most in the minds of either side.
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,135
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect that all parties have been caught on the hop with candidates not yet selected, but perhaps REFUK more than the others as Green and LD will be running nearly everywhere with paper candidates.

    I think REFUK candidates need to pay their own deposits and run their own local campaigns, so might find they are well short of the full slate promised, and this will benefit the Tories to some degree.

    When will nominations close?

    The other factor that could produce a hung parliament/minimal majority would be a massive Lab to Green/WPB swing and I just can't see that.

    Most postal votes get returned quickly and they will be going out in just 3 weeks or so. There isn't much time for Sunak to turn it around.

    I've read some convincing arguments that calling the election now is largely about wrongfooting Reform.
    That assumes Reform voters are closet Tory voters. I suspect most of them are none voters who voted in 2017/9 because they wanted what they asked for in 2016 to be implemented
    Not necessarily.
    One theory is that internal polling showing a much larger Tory to Refuk swing were Farage to become leader, and the precipitate choice to call an election was a panicked attempt to forestall that.

    Could well be bollocks, but it has a certain logic to it.
    Reform announcement at 10am could well be Farage coming back
    Every time Reform make an announcement it gets more attention than it otherwise would because it could be Farage coming back, but so far it never has been. My prediction is it won't be this time either.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,152
    IanB2 said:

    I think tactical voting will kill the Tories. Just can't see this as being anything other than terrible for them.

    Labour will do its best to mess with the LibDem targets, though. Look at our Nick, claiming Labour has a chance in Didcot despite coming behind the LibDems in both PCC and local elections covering the patch.
    Nick Palmer, nice chap though he is, isn't going to be directing troops on the ground.

    By all accounts, Labour HQ has been pretty damned clear with its candidates where they ought to be directing their energies if they want to be on the approved list in 2028/29, and that often isn't in their own seat. They are expected to go from their seat, with a carload of activists, to the nearest target.

    Yes, Nick and many others will talk up their prospects on a niche website - you can't really expect them to write off seats publicly. But it's all pretty irrelevant on the ground.

    I'd contrast 2017 and 2019 - Momentum and Labour at that time had a particular hatred of broadly progressive types who weren't interested in the Corbyn Kool Aid and did actively pursue that at the expense of their own interests.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    DavidL said:

    Farooq said:

    Irregardless of whether they could achieve a delay, the delusion of those Conservative MPs who would seek it reminds me of something from the other side of the aisle: the people in Labour who like to blame the SNP for Thatcher coming to power.

    Whilst it's true that the SNP helped bring down the Labour government (along with the Liberals, the Ulster Unionists, the United Ulster Unionists, the Democratic Unionists), the government had, what, a few months left before an election would need to happen?

    There's no reason to think that hanging on for a few months would have helped. And really, given that this Conservative government have presided over a decade of discontent, the bear man on the street is probably grateful* for the chance to put a boot in their hoop.

    *which reminds me, Swinney whining about the timing was a dumb response. Who cares about the holidays? People can get a postal vote if they're away. If they aren't motivated enough to sort that, they can't care that much about the outcome.

    Swinney has to find something to whine about. It is the SNPs function.

    From a common sense standpoint it is actually better to have elections in the holidays because many schools would otherwise be disrupted.
    It’s a small-minded response which is illustrative of the ideological funk in which the SNP are mired.

    Like her or not, the Sturgeon SNP was able to project a sense of bold positivity and an outward-looking, progressive independent nation.

    Swinney seems to be retreating to the comfort zone of petulant whingebaggery which, while it certainly has a constituency, is not going to win many folk over.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,050
    Eabhal said:

    Turns out the dangerous cycling law has been dropped.

    And the Telegraph have issued a correction for the nonsense 52mph.

    It will remain an issue as long as cyclists who kill pedestrians riding dangerously can't be prosecuted for that unlike motorists and motorcyclists
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,099
    eek said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect that all parties have been caught on the hop with candidates not yet selected, but perhaps REFUK more than the others as Green and LD will be running nearly everywhere with paper candidates.

    I think REFUK candidates need to pay their own deposits and run their own local campaigns, so might find they are well short of the full slate promised, and this will benefit the Tories to some degree.

    When will nominations close?

    The other factor that could produce a hung parliament/minimal majority would be a massive Lab to Green/WPB swing and I just can't see that.

    Most postal votes get returned quickly and they will be going out in just 3 weeks or so. There isn't much time for Sunak to turn it around.

    I've read some convincing arguments that calling the election now is largely about wrongfooting Reform.
    That assumes Reform voters are closet Tory voters. I suspect most of them are none voters who voted in 2017/9 because they wanted what they asked for in 2016 to be implemented
    Not necessarily.
    One theory is that internal polling showing a much larger Tory to Refuk swing were Farage to become leader, and the precipitate choice to call an election was a panicked attempt to forestall that.

    Could well be bollocks, but it has a certain logic to it.
    Reform announcement at 10am could well be Farage coming back
    I did say "attempt".

    Otherwise, we're left with the hilarious "things have started to go wrong."

    https://x.com/KateEMcCann/status/1793338591113785815
    Bumped into senior member of Team Sunak leaving Downing Street this eve. I asked why now? They said this July date has been a slow burn for the PM and better economic news coupled with a fear that public have stopped listening were deciding factors. The biggest though? "Things have started to go wrong... that's going to keep happening. You don't want to be sat there in Downing Street all summer while they do"
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    As I said yesterday...

    @matt_dathan
    Rishi Sunak confirms that Rwanda flights will NOT take off before the election.

    "If I'm elected I'll get the flights off...after the election," he tells @LBC.

    He says preparations for the first flights will "go on" regardless of the election.

    This is after Home Office officials and lawyers warned ministers last night it was "very very unlikely" they could get flights off during the election campaign.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,099
    ToryJim said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
    I doubt the people who think Rwanda is a good idea care about the cost
    The cost is not upper most in the minds of either side.
    Nor is mind uppermost in those who think it a good idea.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,978

    Have we discussed the term “Genny Lec” yet? The more whimsical the event the higher the Labour majority in my view.

    Trumped by snappy lec.
    Both of which can of course get in the fucking sea.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
  • DopermeanDopermean Posts: 511
    Nigelb said:

    .

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect that all parties have been caught on the hop with candidates not yet selected, but perhaps REFUK more than the others as Green and LD will be running nearly everywhere with paper candidates.

    I think REFUK candidates need to pay their own deposits and run their own local campaigns, so might find they are well short of the full slate promised, and this will benefit the Tories to some degree.

    When will nominations close?

    The other factor that could produce a hung parliament/minimal majority would be a massive Lab to Green/WPB swing and I just can't see that.

    Most postal votes get returned quickly and they will be going out in just 3 weeks or so. There isn't much time for Sunak to turn it around.

    I've read some convincing arguments that calling the election now is largely about wrongfooting Reform.
    That assumes Reform voters are closet Tory voters. I suspect most of them are none voters who voted in 2017/9 because they wanted what they asked for in 2016 to be implemented
    Not necessarily.
    One theory is that internal polling showing a much larger Tory to Refuk swing were Farage to become leader, and the precipitate choice to call an election was a panicked attempt to forestall that.

    Could well be bollocks, but it has a certain logic to it.
    Donations have reportedly dried up for Reform, they're running on loans from Tice, so they don't have the funds to campaign effectively in the number of seats they threatened. The money will return if the Conservatives look like becoming more moderate to drag them to the right.
    If they're not going because they'll win then it's probably because there's a massive disaster looming they'd rather dump on Labour. Thames Water financial collapse?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994

    Have we discussed the term “Genny Lec” yet? The more whimsical the event the higher the Labour majority in my view.

    Trumped by snappy lec.
    Both of which can of course get in the fucking sea.
    "Like Spag Bol. It is fuck annoy"
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,099
    edited May 23
    Scott_xP said:

    As I said yesterday...

    @matt_dathan
    Rishi Sunak confirms that Rwanda flights will NOT take off before the election.

    "If I'm elected I'll get the flights off...after the election," he tells @LBC.

    He says preparations for the first flights will "go on" regardless of the election.

    This is after Home Office officials and lawyers warned ministers last night it was "very very unlikely" they could get flights off during the election campaign.

    Open goal for Farage.

    Which is yet another reason the policy is idiotic.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,094

    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
    Sky

    Sunak just announced Rwanda flights will leave after the election
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378


    James O'Malley
    @Psythor
    ·
    3m
    Good luck to the broadcasters trying to schedule any election debates as there are 8pm Euro matches on…

    June 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 29, and 30,

    And July 1 and 2.

    (So I predict there will be a debate on Thursday 27th)

    I think debates will be 13th June and 27th on that basis
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,692

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
    I doubt the people who think Rwanda is a good idea care about the cost
    And the ones who do seem convinced that it won't cost much... A couple of flights and nobody will dare trying ever again.
    Crossings are still on trend to be the highest ever, despite both Rwanda and poor weather this spring.

    Those claiming the policy is already deterring crossings are a bit short of number based evidence.

    https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/channel-crossings-tracker
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Was yesterday a disaster? It seems to me to be exactly what you'd expect from a Sunak GE launch.

    A disaster was exactly what was expected!

    Don’t No.10 have a pop-up gazebo canopy they can put up over the lectern?
    Or someone bringing a brolly?
    A brolly would have made him look even worse. Like a dog with a cone.
    An Amazon Prime delivered gazebo, just in case. Or a Victorian striped bathing suit would also smack of organisation.

    The drenched look was awful, and his Worsted suit? He would have returned to No 10 reeking of wet dog.
  • GhedebravGhedebrav Posts: 3,860
    Scott_xP said:

    Have we discussed the term “Genny Lec” yet? The more whimsical the event the higher the Labour majority in my view.

    Trumped by snappy lec.
    Both of which can of course get in the fucking sea.
    "Like Spag Bol. It is fuck annoy"
    Niche quote but an excellent one.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    eek said:



    James O'Malley
    @Psythor
    ·
    3m
    Good luck to the broadcasters trying to schedule any election debates as there are 8pm Euro matches on…

    June 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 29, and 30,

    And July 1 and 2.

    (So I predict there will be a debate on Thursday 27th)

    I think debates will be 13th June and 27th on that basis

    Oh why bother. Two dullards claiming the same patch of lawn is going to excite no-one.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,792
    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Turns out the dangerous cycling law has been dropped.

    And the Telegraph have issued a correction for the nonsense 52mph.

    It will remain an issue as long as cyclists who kill pedestrians riding dangerously can't be prosecuted for that unlike motorists and motorcyclists
    They can. That is why the new law is stupid and pointless. The new law does more harm than good. Take this to it's logical conclusion. Would you also like to introduce the same law for joggers as well?
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226
    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Lack of planning, which has been one of Rishi's hallmarks.

    The reasons why May was sensible were known in March, if anyone was paying attention and not high on hopium.

    I thought that he would continue to chuck MPs on the bonfire while waiting for a black swan to save him. Wonder what changed the calculation?
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373

    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
    Sky

    Sunak just announced Rwanda flights will leave after the election
    It's such an absurd and expensive policy only one flight is needed to satisfy the manifesto, then it will be quietly dropped.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,867
    Oslo forecast to be warmer than most of Spain today
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994

    Wonder what changed the calculation?

    There is even more bad news to come that isn't yet in the public domain...
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904
    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Rishi is wrongly focussed on economic *news* when people's lived experience trumps tractor stats. It does not matter if the numbers go up down or sideways. What matters is the pound in your pocket, not a blip in the figures because something that happened a year ago has now dropped out of the annual rate calculation.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,286
    edited May 23
    eek said:



    James O'Malley
    @Psythor
    ·
    3m
    Good luck to the broadcasters trying to schedule any election debates as there are 8pm Euro matches on…

    June 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 29, and 30,

    And July 1 and 2.

    (So I predict there will be a debate on Thursday 27th)

    I think debates will be 13th June and 27th on that basis

    Perhaps there won't be any debates this time? Rishi is a pretty terrible debater, so not sure what he gets out of doing them and I'm sure risk adverse Starmer wouldn't mind if they didn't go ahead?

    Avoiding debates with the Euro's going on through June might even have been part of Rishi's calculation to go now?
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275

    MikeL said:

    Nick Watt (BBC2 Newsnight Political Editor) said this is complete rubbish - the number of letters was nowhere near 52.

    He also said Downing Street building couldn't be used for the announcement as Party matter - same reason why no PM crest on lectern. So had to do it outside (unless went elsewhere which would look very odd).

    First election I voted in (2001) was announced by Tony Blair at a school, not Downing Street, from memory.

    So no reason they couldn't have checked the weather and gone elsewhere.
    The whole thing looked shambolic . Sunak could have just popped across the road .
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,288

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Was yesterday a disaster? It seems to me to be exactly what you'd expect from a Sunak GE launch.

    A disaster was exactly what was expected!

    Don’t No.10 have a pop-up gazebo canopy they can put up over the lectern?
    Or someone bringing a brolly?
    A brolly would have made him look even worse. Like a dog with a cone.
    At least Steve McLaren had the occasional win.
    I wonder if there any Tory activists in the Marquee business who might have been able to help out yesterday if asked?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    DavidL said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
    Sky

    Sunak just announced Rwanda flights will leave after the election
    Well on the positive side at least that nonsense will never be implemented. It would have been tricky if there were already a few hundred people there.
    given half of Europe is pushing for a Rwanda style scheme it's only a matter of time till Starmer does a volte face and claims he supported it ll the while.
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189
    Nigelb said:

    ToryJim said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
    I doubt the people who think Rwanda is a good idea care about the cost
    The cost is not upper most in the minds of either side.
    Nor is mind uppermost in those who think it a good idea.
    Well I think you have to break it down, I don’t think you’d find many people objecting to offshore processing and settlement of migrants in a safe willing country. The issue is that Rwanda might be willing but its safety is a big question, plus even if it is safe in the broadest sense of the term the fact it is a quasi-dictatorship where Kagamé got 93 and 98% in his last two elections should give pause.

    Doubtless a tiny minority of supporters are the type who want to send migrants to the worst African shithole they can find, but I suspect far more are simply not aware of the particular objections to Rwanda in particular. Labelling everyone who supports the policy as a brain dead racist is neither a good look nor designed to persuade anyone to adjust their views.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,226

    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
    Sky

    Sunak just announced Rwanda flights will leave after the election
    If he wins. So it seems safe to assume that they won't.

    All that money, all that angst, all that legal chicanery... For nothing.

    I mean, I'm pleased, because the policy was wrong and dishonest and never really going to happen... But what a waste.
  • stjohnstjohn Posts: 1,861

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Was yesterday a disaster? It seems to me to be exactly what you'd expect from a Sunak GE launch.

    A disaster was exactly what was expected!

    Don’t No.10 have a pop-up gazebo canopy they can put up over the lectern?
    Or someone bringing a brolly?
    A brolly would have made him look even worse. Like a dog with a cone.
    An Amazon Prime delivered gazebo, just in case. Or a Victorian striped bathing suit would also smack of organisation.

    The drenched look was awful, and his Worsted suit? He would have returned to No 10 reeking of wet dog.
    He should have worn his Bested suit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 49,867

    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Lack of planning, which has been one of Rishi's hallmarks.

    The reasons why May was sensible were known in March, if anyone was paying attention and not high on hopium.

    I thought that he would continue to chuck MPs on the bonfire while waiting for a black swan to save him. Wonder what changed the calculation?
    I would guess some combination of the internal threat to his leadership and the realisation that the scope for any autumn tax cuts had completely disappeared.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    @duncanrobinson

    Weeeeeeee: Rishi Sunak’s election surprise


  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904

    Ghedebrav said:

    Sandpit said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Was yesterday a disaster? It seems to me to be exactly what you'd expect from a Sunak GE launch.

    A disaster was exactly what was expected!

    Don’t No.10 have a pop-up gazebo canopy they can put up over the lectern?
    Or someone bringing a brolly?
    A brolly would have made him look even worse. Like a dog with a cone.
    An Amazon Prime delivered gazebo, just in case. Or a Victorian striped bathing suit would also smack of organisation.

    The drenched look was awful, and his Worsted suit? He would have returned to No 10 reeking of wet dog.
    Probably why Rishi's 45-second video was delivered in shirt sleeve order.
    https://www.youtube.com/shorts/pc5az4uwTaE

    Doubtless sceptics are scouring the image to see if his hair is wet or if this was recorded earlier!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845
    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect that all parties have been caught on the hop with candidates not yet selected, but perhaps REFUK more than the others as Green and LD will be running nearly everywhere with paper candidates.

    I think REFUK candidates need to pay their own deposits and run their own local campaigns, so might find they are well short of the full slate promised, and this will benefit the Tories to some degree.

    When will nominations close?

    The other factor that could produce a hung parliament/minimal majority would be a massive Lab to Green/WPB swing and I just can't see that.

    Most postal votes get returned quickly and they will be going out in just 3 weeks or so. There isn't much time for Sunak to turn it around.

    I've read some convincing arguments that calling the election now is largely about wrongfooting Reform.
    That assumes Reform voters are closet Tory voters. I suspect most of them are none voters who voted in 2017/9 because they wanted what they asked for in 2016 to be implemented
    Not necessarily.
    One theory is that internal polling showing a much larger Tory to Refuk swing were Farage to become leader, and the precipitate choice to call an election was a panicked attempt to forestall that.

    Could well be bollocks, but it has a certain logic to it.
    Donations have reportedly dried up for Reform, they're running on loans from Tice, so they don't have the funds to campaign effectively in the number of seats they threatened. The money will return if the Conservatives look like becoming more moderate to drag them to the right.
    If they're not going because they'll win then it's probably because there's a massive disaster looming they'd rather dump on Labour. Thames Water financial collapse?
    The party to watch for donations and funds is the SNP. Their last accounts showed the party to be broke (or stronger than ever if you prefer the Sturgeon analysis). Things seem to have got worse since then and the never ending shadow of Branchform does not exactly help.

    Swinney is naturally tetchy and moany but some of his unhappiness yesterday must come from the challenge of running a general election with no funds. The risk is that this makes the result even worse which in turn will significantly reduce a major source of revenue for the party from MPs and their expenses claims.

    Oh well.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,677
    Scott_xP said:

    Wonder what changed the calculation?

    There is even more bad news to come that isn't yet in the public domain...
    Something like many more contaminated blood victims than first thought?
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,518
    nico679 said:

    MikeL said:

    Nick Watt (BBC2 Newsnight Political Editor) said this is complete rubbish - the number of letters was nowhere near 52.

    He also said Downing Street building couldn't be used for the announcement as Party matter - same reason why no PM crest on lectern. So had to do it outside (unless went elsewhere which would look very odd).

    First election I voted in (2001) was announced by Tony Blair at a school, not Downing Street, from memory.

    So no reason they couldn't have checked the weather and gone elsewhere.
    The whole thing looked shambolic . Sunak could have just popped across the road .
    We have lost the plot so much that it seems not to occur to politicians that the sensible place to announce something so central to our constitution as a General Election might be the House of Commons, especially now that it can be broadcast live.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,672

    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
    Sky

    Sunak just announced Rwanda flights will leave after the election
    If he wins. So it seems safe to assume that they won't.

    All that money, all that angst, all that legal chicanery... For nothing.

    I mean, I'm pleased, because the policy was wrong and dishonest and never really going to happen... But what a waste.
    Starmer should send Rishi the bill.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    @gabyhinsliff

    We haven’t made as much progress on nhs waiting lists as I would have liked says Sunak, admitting to Today prog this is disappointing. He is literally making Labou’s case for them, which is that he’s campaigning on a record of failure
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,996
    edited May 23

    DavidL said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
    Sky

    Sunak just announced Rwanda flights will leave after the election
    Well on the positive side at least that nonsense will never be implemented. It would have been tricky if there were already a few hundred people there.
    given half of Europe is pushing for a Rwanda style scheme it's only a matter of time till Starmer does a volte face and claims he supported it ll the while.
    Most of the European proposals are for offshore processing, which as you know are a morally and practically extremely different proposition, and one Labour could I think countenance.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,586
    eek said:



    James O'Malley
    @Psythor
    ·
    3m
    Good luck to the broadcasters trying to schedule any election debates as there are 8pm Euro matches on…

    June 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 29, and 30,

    And July 1 and 2.

    (So I predict there will be a debate on Thursday 27th)

    I think debates will be 13th June and 27th on that basis

    The end of the useless set-piece MSM “debates”, with days of inane commentary before and after, might be the best thing about this election.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Morning All
    Some polling milestones to look for as we enter the campaign

    Labour highest 2024 49%
    Labour lowest 2024 39.5% (yougov MRP) 40% regular polling
    Con highest 2024 29%
    Con lowest 2024 18%
    LD high/low 2024 12.5%/6%
    Reform 16%/4%
    Green 11%/2%

    Since Truss took over Labour have had 3 39%s - once in 23 with Opinium, in 22 with Kantar and Opinium, nothing below

    Last Tory 30% October 2023
    Since the mini budget their best is a one off 35 with Deltapoll, otherwise 32
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,677
    edited May 23
    Farooq said:

    Eabhal said:

    Turns out the dangerous cycling law has been dropped.

    And the Telegraph have issued a correction for the nonsense 52mph.

    Shame. Could've done with tracking down the 52mph cyclist with Paris Olympics around the corner.
    Funny, but reflective of a touchingly out-of-date view of plod.
    I wouldn't trust the police to be able to track him down before the LA Olympics.
    A police officer pointed out on twitter than by lowering the threshold of dangerous to include errant cycling, many more driving incidents would end up classified as such - for example, driving at 26mph in 20mph limit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,099
    ToryJim said:

    Nigelb said:

    ToryJim said:

    eek said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Sunak standing on a platform of Vote for me and I’ll waste your cash on Performative Deportation flights is quite the offer.
    I doubt the people who think Rwanda is a good idea care about the cost
    The cost is not upper most in the minds of either side.
    Nor is mind uppermost in those who think it a good idea.
    Well I think you have to break it down, I don’t think you’d find many people objecting to offshore processing and settlement of migrants in a safe willing country. The issue is that Rwanda might be willing but its safety is a big question, plus even if it is safe in the broadest sense of the term the fact it is a quasi-dictatorship where Kagamé got 93 and 98% in his last two elections should give pause.

    Doubtless a tiny minority of supporters are the type who want to send migrants to the worst African shithole they can find, but I suspect far more are simply not aware of the particular objections to Rwanda in particular. Labelling everyone who supports the policy as a brain dead racist is neither a good look nor designed to persuade anyone to adjust their views.
    You weren't listening to Sunak just now insisting to Nick Robinson that his policy is perfect and that "fifteen European countries now agree with me.... by the way, Nick".
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,723
    edited May 23
    Cicero said:

    Heathener said:

    Much more of this sort of talk from Conservative MPs and I’ll revise downwards my prediction of 160 seats, which is already pretty generous.

    Voters are sassy. They know that any party with a massive majority is bad. I doubt a majority of more than 40 over all.other parties. It might be more if Labour wipe out the SNP.
    The voters are implacably furious. Once they decide that the Tories deserve a shellacking, there isn't really a mechanism under FPTP voting to control how big a shellacking they get.

    A poorly planned campaign could see the Tories lose ground from here. If the Lib Dems, conversely, have a good campaign, then the differential swing could lose Sunak a lot more seats than even the most pessimistic forecasts.
    Of course you complete miss out that Starmer and others may well be found out during the Election campaign. The Tories will lose but there are far too many blinkered eyes on here who can only think of a massive majority.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    TimS said:

    I’m reflecting this morning on that Steve Bray soundtrack to the announcement. It was a clever choice by the annoying old prat but it’s the sheer stupidity oh the conservatives in choosing the Downing Street announcement that I find incredible. They would have known this was likely to happen.

    Forget the rain. This will have been watched by millions of non politically engaged viewers, who rarely watch live political announcements but will have seen this one, and who probably haven’t heard of Steve Bray. If they remember 1997 this may well have stirred something Proustian.

    In one fell swoop CCHQ transported viewers from a miserable rainy day to that warm hopeful May morning 27 years ago. Before Iraq. Before the financial crisis, before austerity, Brexit, Covid. A more optimistic time.

    I’ve certainly been lumbered with the earworm overnight. It’s an incredibly catchy tune.

    I suspect it will be one of those Marmite moments. Lefties think its great, righties think Bray's a wanker. But it has set down the markers for the campaign. Starmer can hardly complain now if some nutjob covers him in orange paint.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,094
    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Lack of planning, which has been one of Rishi's hallmarks.

    The reasons why May was sensible were known in March, if anyone was paying attention and not high on hopium.

    I thought that he would continue to chuck MPs on the bonfire while waiting for a black swan to save him. Wonder what changed the calculation?
    I would guess some combination of the internal threat to his leadership and the realisation that the scope for any autumn tax cuts had completely disappeared.
    Sky business has just said that not only no tax cuts, but the outlook is no increases in public spending and a very difficult economic future for any government
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,845
    Scott_xP said:

    @gabyhinsliff

    We haven’t made as much progress on nhs waiting lists as I would have liked says Sunak, admitting to Today prog this is disappointing. He is literally making Labou’s case for them, which is that he’s campaigning on a record of failure

    Just maybe his government should have tried harder to settle the junior doctors dispute. Too late now.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607
    TimS said:

    I’m reflecting this morning on that Steve Bray soundtrack to the announcement. It was a clever choice by the annoying old prat but it’s the sheer stupidity of the conservatives in choosing a Downing Street announcement that I find incredible. They would have known this was likely to happen.

    Forget the rain. This will have been watched by millions of non politically engaged viewers, who rarely watch live political announcements but will have seen this one, and who probably haven’t heard of Steve Bray. If they remember 1997 this may well have stirred something Proustian.

    In one fell swoop CCHQ transported viewers from a miserable rainy day to that warm hopeful May morning 27 years ago. Before Iraq. Before the financial crisis, before austerity, Brexit, Covid. A more optimistic time.

    I’ve certainly been lumbered with the earworm overnight. It’s an incredibly catchy tune.

    A more optimistic time.

    Before Blair and Brown ruined it.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    Ghedebrav said:

    Scott_xP said:

    Have we discussed the term “Genny Lec” yet? The more whimsical the event the higher the Labour majority in my view.

    Trumped by snappy lec.
    Both of which can of course get in the fucking sea.
    "Like Spag Bol. It is fuck annoy"
    Niche quote but an excellent one.
    I expect TTOI to get a lot of airtime in this campaign, but of course sometimes it just can't compete with reality...

    @Aiannucci

    Sunak on Rwanda: ‘The plan has worked, but hasn’t happened yet.’
  • ToryJimToryJim Posts: 4,189

    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Lack of planning, which has been one of Rishi's hallmarks.

    The reasons why May was sensible were known in March, if anyone was paying attention and not high on hopium.

    I thought that he would continue to chuck MPs on the bonfire while waiting for a black swan to save him. Wonder what changed the calculation?
    I think the analogy is if you were on death row you’d exhaust all your appeals but once you’re at the stage where you’re only hope is “there might be an earthquake that destroys the jail and I can escape” you might as well just strap yourself to the gurney and get it over with. Rishi just got to the realisation that he’d run out of appeals and the jailbreak was never going to work.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,099
    The definitive sartorial judgment is out.

    historically, men in this situation used a folding canopy called an umbrella
    https://x.com/dieworkwear/status/1793330275063419356
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405
    TimS said:

    DavidL said:

    Ghedebrav said:

    eek said:

    Rishi Sunak says on BBC Breakfast that flights to Rwanda will go in July. But then caveats that with "if I'm reelected on the 5th of July, these flights will go."

    It's an admission they will not go before the election.

    - now that may actually be worth a few votes from the Reform voters block to the Tories. Still don’t think it gives them 30+% of the vote though

    Tbh a lot of Reform voters likely want something more radical and less nuanced than planes to Rwanda, and it’s easy for Team Tice to one-up it by saying ‘deploy the fleet to the channel’ or something.
    Farage announcing his candidacy behind a placard reading "strafe the boats" could sink Sunak too.
    Sky

    Sunak just announced Rwanda flights will leave after the election
    Well on the positive side at least that nonsense will never be implemented. It would have been tricky if there were already a few hundred people there.
    given half of Europe is pushing for a Rwanda style scheme it's only a matter of time till Starmer does a volte face and claims he supported it ll the while.
    Most of the European proposals are for offshore processing, which as you know are a morally and practically extremely different proposition, and one Labour could I think countenance.

    Starmer will simply present a lawyerly argument, bur essentially do the same.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 27,904
    Farooq said:

    Irregardless of whether they could achieve a delay, the delusion of those Conservative MPs who would seek it reminds me of something from the other side of the aisle: the people in Labour who like to blame the SNP for Thatcher coming to power.

    Whilst it's true that the SNP helped bring down the Labour government (along with the Liberals, the Ulster Unionists, the United Ulster Unionists, the Democratic Unionists), the government had, what, a few months left before an election would need to happen?

    There's no reason to think that hanging on for a few months would have helped. And really, given that this Conservative government have presided over a decade of discontent, the bear man on the street is probably grateful* for the chance to put a boot in their hoop.

    *which reminds me, Swinney whining about the timing was a dumb response. Who cares about the holidays? People can get a postal vote if they're away. If they aren't motivated enough to sort that, they can't care that much about the outcome.

    Swinney's point might be (and even if it wasn't, it should be) that wilfully clashing with Scottish holidays proves the contempt of London for Scotland, so vote SNP.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,286
    edited May 23

    I think the really telling aspect of the "wally with no brolly" stuff yesterday isn't that it was inept not to find a room, or have an umbrella (although it was). It's the total inability of Sunak to acknowledge it or go off script.

    Having found himself in a less than ideal situation, most PM's would have nodded to the humour of the situation. There were lots of lame dad jokes to be made there... "thanks for coming on such a beautiful day!" "We're best placed to weather the storms ahead - as I'm proving right now!" "The Tories will rain on Labour's parade!"

    What was so weird was he simply didn't acknowledge it at all - people laughed at him rather than with him as he failed to bring himself into the joke.

    He's just really bad at politics isn't he? Great bean-counter. Terrible politician.

    Not quite to Liz Truss levels (who as well as being a terrible politician is also totally loopy) but very much with Gordon Brown on bean-counter>politician stakes... And possibly Theresa May, too (could he have an even worse election campaign than May?)
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    @IanDunt

    Pretty terrible from Sunak. His performance is obviously very bad - droning entitled tetchiness. But mostly it's context. He set up five tests for his premiership. He failed to pass them. Once that's the case, you really are rather buggered.
  • booksellerbookseller Posts: 507
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    Eabhal said:

    Turns out the dangerous cycling law has been dropped.

    And the Telegraph have issued a correction for the nonsense 52mph.

    It will remain an issue as long as cyclists who kill pedestrians riding dangerously can't be prosecuted for that unlike motorists and motorcyclists
    They can. That is why the new law is stupid and pointless. The new law does more harm than good. Take this to it's logical conclusion. Would you also like to introduce the same law for joggers as well?
    It is almost always possible to charge people under an existing act, but requires a case to be built. But that's expensive and time consuming so (as politicians) you being in some hurried legislation and it backfires because it's either got huge (legal) holes in it or it's so wide-ranging and draconian that you get a lot of unintended consequences.

    This has happened with the Public Order (2023) Act and Just Stop Oil. By defining national infrastructure in such broad terms (A and B Roads) and disruption as anything that causes economic loss to drives (1 minute delay) the police are able to hoover up young climate activists quickly but you've inadvertently criminalised everyone from ramblers and milk delivery drivers to disabled people crossing the road.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 28,373
    Scott_xP said:

    Wonder what changed the calculation?

    There is even more bad news to come that isn't yet in the public domain...
    You mean if they win Labour will have squandered Rishi's golden legacy as soon as the July inflation figures.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378
    Oh migration figures are out this morning


    Sunder Katwala
    @sundersays
    Reform probably aren't as ready as they would like for a July election vs October/November. But the timing of the Prime Minister's announcement gives Reform the chance to launch 90 minutes after the 6 monthly net migration statistics: the number one issue for Con/Reform switchers
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994

    Swinney's point might be (and even if it wasn't, it should be) that wilfully clashing with Scottish holidays proves the contempt of London for Scotland, so vote SNP.

    Undermined by the fact that

    not all schools in Scotland are actually on holiday at that time

    Nippy scheduled her next Indy vote for during the Scottish school holidays
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,978
    DavidL said:

    Dopermean said:

    Nigelb said:

    .

    eek said:

    Foxy said:

    I suspect that all parties have been caught on the hop with candidates not yet selected, but perhaps REFUK more than the others as Green and LD will be running nearly everywhere with paper candidates.

    I think REFUK candidates need to pay their own deposits and run their own local campaigns, so might find they are well short of the full slate promised, and this will benefit the Tories to some degree.

    When will nominations close?

    The other factor that could produce a hung parliament/minimal majority would be a massive Lab to Green/WPB swing and I just can't see that.

    Most postal votes get returned quickly and they will be going out in just 3 weeks or so. There isn't much time for Sunak to turn it around.

    I've read some convincing arguments that calling the election now is largely about wrongfooting Reform.
    That assumes Reform voters are closet Tory voters. I suspect most of them are none voters who voted in 2017/9 because they wanted what they asked for in 2016 to be implemented
    Not necessarily.
    One theory is that internal polling showing a much larger Tory to Refuk swing were Farage to become leader, and the precipitate choice to call an election was a panicked attempt to forestall that.

    Could well be bollocks, but it has a certain logic to it.
    Donations have reportedly dried up for Reform, they're running on loans from Tice, so they don't have the funds to campaign effectively in the number of seats they threatened. The money will return if the Conservatives look like becoming more moderate to drag them to the right.
    If they're not going because they'll win then it's probably because there's a massive disaster looming they'd rather dump on Labour. Thames Water financial collapse?
    The party to watch for donations and funds is the SNP. Their last accounts showed the party to be broke (or stronger than ever if you prefer the Sturgeon analysis). Things seem to have got worse since then and the never ending shadow of Branchform does not exactly help.

    Swinney is naturally tetchy and moany but some of his unhappiness yesterday must come from the challenge of running a general election with no funds. The risk is that this makes the result even worse which in turn will significantly reduce a major source of revenue for the party from MPs and their expenses claims.

    Oh well.
    I recall that you still believe that Humza will be on a £52k pa pension. Surely he’ll be willing to help out with a bit of it?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,405

    Scott_xP said:

    Wonder what changed the calculation?

    There is even more bad news to come that isn't yet in the public domain...
    You mean if they win Labour will have squandered Rishi's golden legacy as soon as the July inflation figures.
    That's how poor Rachel Reeves really is.
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 4,935
    GIN1138 said:

    eek said:



    James O'Malley
    @Psythor
    ·
    3m
    Good luck to the broadcasters trying to schedule any election debates as there are 8pm Euro matches on…

    June 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 29, and 30,

    And July 1 and 2.

    (So I predict there will be a debate on Thursday 27th)

    I think debates will be 13th June and 27th on that basis

    Perhaps there won't be any debates this time? Rishi is a pretty terrible debater, so not sure what he gets out of doing them and I'm sure risk adverse Starmer wouldn't mind if they didn't go ahead?

    Avoiding debates with the Euro's going on through June might even have been part of Rishi's calculation to go now?
    I would sooner watch 2 idiots kicking a question about than 22 idiots kicking a ball about.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,994
    @jessicaelgot

    Some Tory MPs were taking crumb of comfort last night they might get boost from a flight taking off at the end of the election campaign. Now Sunak confirms they won't. (And no perm sec was likely to consider that possible in an election period, given scheme likely to be scrapped)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,667

    IanB2 said:

    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Lack of planning, which has been one of Rishi's hallmarks.

    The reasons why May was sensible were known in March, if anyone was paying attention and not high on hopium.

    I thought that he would continue to chuck MPs on the bonfire while waiting for a black swan to save him. Wonder what changed the calculation?
    I would guess some combination of the internal threat to his leadership and the realisation that the scope for any autumn tax cuts had completely disappeared.
    Sky business has just said that not only no tax cuts, but the outlook is no increases in public spending and a very difficult economic future for any government
    And there we have it: the economic legacy. Thank-you very much Tories.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,607

    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Rishi is wrongly focussed on economic *news* when people's lived experience trumps tractor stats. It does not matter if the numbers go up down or sideways. What matters is the pound in your pocket, not a blip in the figures because something that happened a year ago has now dropped out of the annual rate calculation.
    The reality for some, the boasting for others.

    The current zeitgest is one of personal hardship and suffering.

    Even if its not personally true.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,061
    Scott_xP said:

    Swinney's point might be (and even if it wasn't, it should be) that wilfully clashing with Scottish holidays proves the contempt of London for Scotland, so vote SNP.

    Undermined by the fact that

    not all schools in Scotland are actually on holiday at that time

    Nippy scheduled her next Indy vote for during the Scottish school holidays
    Plus these things called postal votes for anyone whos going away first week of hols
  • eekeek Posts: 28,378

    Scott_xP said:

    Wonder what changed the calculation?

    There is even more bad news to come that isn't yet in the public domain...
    You mean if they win Labour will have squandered Rishi's golden legacy as soon as the July inflation figures.
    That's how poor Rachel Reeves really is.
    It’s the August figures which are going to be bad - as that is when last years drop in energy prices disappears from the figures.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,750

    I think the really telling aspect of the "wally with no brolly" stuff yesterday isn't that it was inept not to find a room, or have an umbrella (although it was). It's the total inability of Sunak to acknowledge it or go off script.

    Having found himself in a less than ideal situation, most PM's would have nodded to the humour of the situation. There were lots of lame dad jokes to be made there... "thanks for coming on such a beautiful day!" "We're best placed to weather the storms ahead - as I'm proving right now!" "The Tories will rain on Labour's parade!"

    What was so weird was he simply didn't acknowledge it at all - people laughed at him rather than with him as he failed to bring himself into the joke.

    He's incapable of deviating from his script. Part of the reason - but only part - why I think he will be hopeless in a debate, and will do his utmost to avoid taking part in one.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,914
    Cicero said:

    It's beginning to look like Sunak was forced out by his own side anyway. The Tory Party isn't actually ready for the GE and activists as well as MPs are livid.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/23/july-general-election-tory-mps-may-october

    If this is true then the campaign is going to be an ill planned shambles. A fitting post script to the worst government in at least 250 years.

    The icing on the cake as they say in football parlance would be Braverman to lose her seat.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,152

    eek said:

    Inside the cabinet debate where election decision was made

    The prime minister had made the decision to go to the country nearly a month ago after it became apparent voters were unwilling to give the Tories credit for any economic recovery


    Rishi Sunak opened Cabinet on Wednesday afternoon by setting aside the formal agenda. “I don’t think anyone will mind,” he said as he told colleagues that he was calling a general election on July 4. The economic outlook, he said, was improving and it was time to be bold. “We have got to own the choice and frame the choice,” he said.

    The prime minister’s decision to go early was not universally welcomed. Esther McVey, the Cabinet Office minister, said that she disagreed and argued that the Tories needed more time for the improved economic outlook to feed through to voters. Chris Heaton-Harris, the Northern Ireland secretary, said he would not have gone early but added that he was “100 per cent” behind the prime minister.

    In fact, Sunak made the decision to call the election nearly a month ago, shortly before the local election results were announced. The original plan had been to hold off until the autumn, by which time people would feel better off as inflation fell and interest rates were cut.

    It soon became apparent, however, that the economic recovery was slower than hoped, and that even then people were unwilling to give the Tories credit.

    The prime minister became concerned that the longer he waited, the more he would be susceptible to accusations that he was “clinging on”.

    The narrative that the Tories once deployed successfully against Gordon Brown — that he was squatting in No 10 — would be deployed against Sunak. By going early, the thinking was, Sunak could seize the agenda.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/inside-the-cabinet-debate-where-election-decision-was-made-xz2vct0tt

    Blimey. Whoever gave Rishi that analysis is a blithering idiot or a Labour mole. Of course voters were unconvinced by a one-off improvement in economic tractor stats, which is why lower inflation and interest rates needed time to bed in, alongside pay rises, so improving living standards could be seen as permanent.

    The line about seizing the agenda sounds like something Peter Mandelson would have said 30 years ago. It is doubly absurd from a party that announced an election immediately before the immigration figures were due out, and whose settlement of the blood scandal is in danger of being dropped. It hardly points to mastery of the news grid, let alone the weather forecast.
    Problem is come August the massive decrease that happened last summer with home energy bills disappears and inflation shifts from 2.3% to 3.6% (minimum) which removes the inflation side of things are going economically well. argument

    I really do think that yesterday’s inflation figure was the only good bit of news that Rishi had between now and November on which an election could be pinned on.

    But it would have been better to go in May because I suspect troops on the ground getting the vote out isn’t going to happen
    Lack of planning, which has been one of Rishi's hallmarks.

    The reasons why May was sensible were known in March, if anyone was paying attention and not high on hopium.

    I thought that he would continue to chuck MPs on the bonfire while waiting for a black swan to save him. Wonder what changed the calculation?
    I wonder if he just changed his mind? He isn't a very good politician, and isn't a very decisive one either - he's really prone to just changing course. In some ways, you could say that's good because it's the defintion of madness to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. But the rudderlessness comes across.

    We saw it last year. When Sunak came in, he had a very clear strategy. He'd set some achievable targets, achieve them, then say "I'm the sort of sensible chap who sets achievable targets and achieves them." But then, over the summer, he wasn't seeing instant results and went a bit mad. He clung onto Uxbridge to present himself as the motorist's friend, became more strident on core vote messages, back-flipped on HS2, said he was the change candidate.

    No doubt it all worked in his head - things weren't working, so try something else. But you can't just expect nobody to notice - people thought they knew what he was, then he was something else, then he was just thrashing about. In the end, they concluded he was a wally, and that's hard to shift.
This discussion has been closed.