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The second coming of John Swinney – politicalbetting.com

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  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,054

    Good, but tough, day today. I've walked 47km, with loads of climbing. I felt bold after 20km by 11:30am so booked a place 30km further on

    After 10km the route split, and the alternative route, described as the traditional route, was a few kilometres less, and more importantly offered shade as the sun had just quite fiercely showed itself after a cool, cloudy morning

    So I set off on Saint Jacob's way, still officially part of the Camino de Santiago, but with fewer stops in towns than the new route. I was already stocked up with snacks and beer, so went for it

    I took a wrong turn, and ended up climbing a very steep hill in blazing sunshine, but the next 10km were easy walking through woodland hilltop paths

    Then as I came out of the woods I stumbled upon some noom

    I found the ruins of an ancient, nearly 1,000 year old, monastery at a place called Zarapuz

    I don't know if the noom would be available to lazy, impatient travel journalists, or anyone who stops there without the effort, but I certainly felt it

    I sat on the ledge of the opening in the front wall for a good fifteen minutes (with a beer break of course!)

    It's a place where pilgrims stopped, on the traditional route, for hundreds of years before it fell to ruin, and I was there totally alone. I didn't see another soul within two or three miles either side

    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarapuz




    Ultreya!
  • CiceroCicero Posts: 3,054

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    It's more important for the Lib Dems than the Tories, though, as your example also sort of illustrates. Presumably they weren't campaigning very much in Guildford either, but their vote showed up anyway. Conservatives are the governing party and hold the seats we're talking about, so don't need to remind people they exist and are credible in the area.

    I don't agree with Sandy in that I think a good ground game is still worth a fair bit for the Conservatives. But it is less important than for smaller parties.
    Its why Farage will not get into double figures, and will probably closer to the 2.6% of the Referendum Party.

    The Lib Dems could be about to unleash a terrible revenge.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,771
    DavidL said:

    I saw recently that nearly all of the Man Utd squad was up for sale. Presumably the defence has already been sold.

    Palace are just walking through them at will.
    After all the years of misery since SAF this has probably been the worst.

    No no, this is good. Radcliffe is going to sweep clean. They're all out pretty much. Start again, with staff and team who actually care.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702
    @Simon_Nixon

    Labour Needs a Clearer Plan for Brexit - The Tories face electoral oblivion because of their disastrous embrace of Brexit. But if Labour waits until it is in office to work out how to limit the damage, it may already be too late.


  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 28,771
    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    That doesn't work at all. Unless everyone is voting for the same thing then the comparison is meaningless. Different turn out, different motivations, different perspectives.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,329

    DavidL said:

    I saw recently that nearly all of the Man Utd squad was up for sale. Presumably the defence has already been sold.

    Palace are just walking through them at will.
    After all the years of misery since SAF this has probably been the worst.

    The club is rotten from the top down and Ratcliffe should sack ETH tonight

    It needs complete renewal from manager, coaching and physio staff, attitudes and stadium

    They will not qualify for Europe and next is Arsenal and then City in the final

    Heart of stone..... One of the few cheering aspects of life today. But can on of the London clubs help Arsenal out by taking points off City.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,093

    I note with interest that the new new First Minister is making pronouncements about his new government's policy direction being different from the last one.

    Where's your mandate love?

    It was intriguing he called for Liz Truss to call an election but he does not have to. There's a word that comes to my mind for this, H something
    Humza?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,119

    DavidL said:

    I saw recently that nearly all of the Man Utd squad was up for sale. Presumably the defence has already been sold.

    Palace are just walking through them at will.
    After all the years of misery since SAF this has probably been the worst.

    No no, this is good. Radcliffe is going to sweep clean. They're all out pretty much. Start again, with staff and team who actually care.
    Ferguson was able to assemble three great teams, packed with players who who would die for the club, and regarded it as an honour to play in the shirt. Since then there has been a cavalcade of players who see the club as a mulch cow. Very few have the sense of tradition and genuine desire to make Man Utd the best in the land again.
    Sir Alex was always going to be tough to follow, but it’s been worse than many imagined it could be.
    I wouldn’t rule out a similar wait for the next title as that Liverpool fans endured…
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527
    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    Sort of. Some elections had more at stake than others. I don’t think I’m the only voter in the county who couldn’t be arsed to vote for the Kent PCC but will be queuing up before the polls open to remove the shower in Westminster.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,212
    edited May 6

    nico679 said:

    Man Utd are awful .

    Atrocious defending and the manager really should walk .

    Agreed
    Up in your part of the world this week, Big G. Staying near Portmerion, but we did a circuit through Betts-y-coed, Conwy, Caernarfon today. Just superb spring weather and the place could not have looked better. First time the wife has been up here, so she was very impressed!

    More steam trains tomorrow.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,702

    DavidL said:

    I saw recently that nearly all of the Man Utd squad was up for sale. Presumably the defence has already been sold.

    Palace are just walking through them at will.
    After all the years of misery since SAF this has probably been the worst.

    No no, this is good. Radcliffe is going to sweep clean. They're all out pretty much. Start again, with staff and team who actually care.
    Ferguson was able to assemble three great teams, packed with players who who would die for the club, and regarded it as an honour to play in the shirt. Since then there has been a cavalcade of players who see the club as a mulch cow. Very few have the sense of tradition and genuine desire to make Man Utd the best in the land again.
    Sir Alex was always going to be tough to follow, but it’s been worse than many imagined it could be.
    I wouldn’t rule out a similar wait for the next title as that Liverpool fans endured…
    @BBCArchive

    #OnThisDay 1974: Newcastle United's losing FA Cup final team returned crestfallen to the city, to receive the kind of reception that most winning teams could only dream of.

    https://x.com/BBCArchive/status/1787376753964728639
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,600
    edited May 6

    I note with interest that the new new First Minister is making pronouncements about his new government's policy direction being different from the last one.

    Where's your mandate love?

    It was intriguing he called for Liz Truss to call an election but he does not have to. There's a word that comes to my mind for this, H something
    Different. He will get* a formal mandate from a vote in the Scottish Parliament. That's how FMs are designated. By a vote of MSPs.

    Which is not what happens at Westminster.

    Edit: * Or not as the case may be.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,114

    MikeL said:

    Israel knows it can do what it wants - because the USA will support it WHATEVER it does.

    This did not start last October. It's being going on for 75 YEARS - expelling Palestinians, kicking them out of their land, killing them on and on and on and on.

    The Palestinians are in a hopeless position because nobody will do anything to stop it - so it will go on indefinitely. So of course Israel will obliterate Rafah.

    There's only one tiny thing that might be done that just could maybe have an effect. Target organisations where the US, UK etc don't have a veto. Get Israel suspended / expelled from the IOC, FIFA, UEFA, cultural and academic organisations etc. They won't like that. Just like South Africa didn't like being boycotted. And ultimately it had an effect there.

    SKS says kick Israel out

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10028959/amp/Keir-Starmer-appeared-meeting-included-call-punish-Israeli-racism.html
    Before he was backed by the Israeli lobbyist donors and before he coincidentally changed his name by deed poll to Tel Aviv Keith
    Tel being short for Terry ?
  • BatteryCorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorse Posts: 3,167
    Scott_xP said:

    @Simon_Nixon

    Labour Needs a Clearer Plan for Brexit - The Tories face electoral oblivion because of their disastrous embrace of Brexit. But if Labour waits until it is in office to work out how to limit the damage, it may already be too late.


    *austerity
  • pm215pm215 Posts: 1,114

    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    That doesn't work at all. Unless everyone is voting for the same thing then the comparison is meaningless. Different turn out, different motivations, different perspectives.
    And casting the notoriously low turnout PCC elections as "all of England and Wales" voted is a touch misleading. (Sentiment I heard was along the lines of "why is this even a political job?"...)
  • DougSealDougSeal Posts: 12,527

    DavidL said:

    I saw recently that nearly all of the Man Utd squad was up for sale. Presumably the defence has already been sold.

    Palace are just walking through them at will.
    After all the years of misery since SAF this has probably been the worst.

    No no, this is good. Radcliffe is going to sweep clean. They're all out pretty much. Start again, with staff and team who actually care.
    Ferguson was able to assemble three great teams, packed with players who who would die for the club, and regarded it as an honour to play in the shirt. Since then there has been a cavalcade of players who see the club as a mulch cow. Very few have the sense of tradition and genuine desire to make Man Utd the best in the land again.
    Sir Alex was always going to be tough to follow, but it’s been worse than many imagined it could be.
    I wouldn’t rule out a similar wait for the next title as that Liverpool fans endured…
    Or indeed Manchester United fans endured before 1992/93
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,114
    viewcode said:

    MikeL said:

    Israel knows it can do what it wants - because the USA will support it WHATEVER it does.

    This did not start last October. It's being going on for 75 YEARS - expelling Palestinians, kicking them out of their land, killing them on and on and on and on.

    The Palestinians are in a hopeless position because nobody will do anything to stop it - so it will go on indefinitely. So of course Israel will obliterate Rafah.

    There's only one tiny thing that might be done that just could maybe have an effect. Target organisations where the US, UK etc don't have a veto. Get Israel suspended / expelled from the IOC, FIFA, UEFA, cultural and academic organisations etc. They won't like that. Just like South Africa didn't like being boycotted. And ultimately it had an effect there.

    SKS says kick Israel out

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10028959/amp/Keir-Starmer-appeared-meeting-included-call-punish-Israeli-racism.html
    Before he was backed by the Israeli lobbyist donors and before he coincidentally changed his name by deed poll to Tel Aviv Keith
    He's been on a journey has our Keir
    He has indeed. Who knows where he will go next... :(
    Another lower league soccer ground ?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,089
    Scott_xP said:

    @Simon_Nixon

    Labour Needs a Clearer Plan for Brexit - The Tories face electoral oblivion because of their disastrous embrace of Brexit. But if Labour waits until it is in office to work out how to limit the damage, it may already be too late.


    Strange definition of “disastrous”.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,329
    edited May 6

    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    That doesn't work at all. Unless everyone is voting for the same thing then the comparison is meaningless. Different turn out, different motivations, different perspectives.
    It's not meaningless, but it can't be read superficially. There is a possible route to the Tories avoiding a wipeout; but it has to be looked at in the light of the Tories less good relative performance when Reform was a factor in play (John Curtice today).

    But if (big if) Reform could be neutralised then the Tories would come an OK second rather than suffer wipeout.

    As all politics is relative, this could happen, simply by Labour and Reform suffering significant unforeseen stumbles or disasters. The Tories can't get any better than they are now. But the others could get worse.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,120
    algarkirk said:

    I note with interest that the new new First Minister is making pronouncements about his new government's policy direction being different from the last one.

    Where's your mandate love?

    It was intriguing he called for Liz Truss to call an election but he does not have to. There's a word that comes to my mind for this, H something
    Under the Scotland Act it is not in the FM's gift. Unlike at Westminster

    He could either allow the 28 days to elapse without nomination of a First Minister, or it can happen by a 2/3rds vote of Members, which he could fairly easily secure by whipping SNP in favour.

    I mean he clearly won't, but it is a real option.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,089
    Cicero said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    It's more important for the Lib Dems than the Tories, though, as your example also sort of illustrates. Presumably they weren't campaigning very much in Guildford either, but their vote showed up anyway. Conservatives are the governing party and hold the seats we're talking about, so don't need to remind people they exist and are credible in the area.

    I don't agree with Sandy in that I think a good ground game is still worth a fair bit for the Conservatives. But it is less important than for smaller parties.
    Its why Farage will not get into double figures, and will probably closer to the 2.6% of the Referendum Party.

    The Lib Dems could be about to unleash a terrible revenge.
    3% or so would be my best guess for Reform.
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,120
    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    It's more important for the Lib Dems than the Tories, though, as your example also sort of illustrates. Presumably they weren't campaigning very much in Guildford either, but their vote showed up anyway. Conservatives are the governing party and hold the seats we're talking about, so don't need to remind people they exist and are credible in the area.

    I don't agree with Sandy in that I think a good ground game is still worth a fair bit for the Conservatives. But it is less important than for smaller parties.
    Its why Farage will not get into double figures, and will probably closer to the 2.6% of the Referendum Party.

    The Lib Dems could be about to unleash a terrible revenge.
    3% or so would be my best guess for Reform.
    I think they would do much better than the Referendum Party but nowhere near current polling. Maybe 7-8%.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 11,683
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    I have no idea about Labour as I have always been in LD/Tory seats, but I agree with all of that. I have always thought Tories were best at GOTV, mainly because I have been involved in campaign where we have been trying to convert and Tories trying to hold so that was key to them.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    DougSeal said:

    BlancheLivermore, have you ever considered hiking the Appalachian Trail?

    Bit longer than the Camino, but doable in sections; hikers esp. those doing/attempting entire AT generally start in Georgia and work their way north toward Maine.

    I don’t think you quite appreciate how much Europeans underestimate the sheer size of the USA. The Appalachian trail is roughly 2,200 miles. Dunnet Head (the northernmost part of mainland Scotland) to Lizard Point (the most southerly point of England) only 600. So walking the whole trail is the equivalent of walking up and down this whole damn island nearly 4 times! How do you find the time, even in a lifetime?
    Should take Blanche about three months, tops.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,329
    Scott_xP said:

    @Simon_Nixon

    Labour Needs a Clearer Plan for Brexit - The Tories face electoral oblivion because of their disastrous embrace of Brexit. But if Labour waits until it is in office to work out how to limit the damage, it may already be too late.


    Announcing a clear plan for Brexit is exactly the sort of clarity that loses elections. I hope they have a plan for exactly what they want to do and how to do it. But then I presumed that Cameron had a similar plan. We were wrong. Might be wrong again.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,667
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @Simon_Nixon

    Labour Needs a Clearer Plan for Brexit - The Tories face electoral oblivion because of their disastrous embrace of Brexit. But if Labour waits until it is in office to work out how to limit the damage, it may already be too late.


    Strange definition of “disastrous”.
    Since 2019 the number of workers in the City has increased by 73k.
    https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/supporting-businesses/economic-research/research-publications/city-statistics-briefing

    But hey, @Scott_xP prefers an anecdote.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 12,329
    Sean_F said:

    Cicero said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    It's more important for the Lib Dems than the Tories, though, as your example also sort of illustrates. Presumably they weren't campaigning very much in Guildford either, but their vote showed up anyway. Conservatives are the governing party and hold the seats we're talking about, so don't need to remind people they exist and are credible in the area.

    I don't agree with Sandy in that I think a good ground game is still worth a fair bit for the Conservatives. But it is less important than for smaller parties.
    Its why Farage will not get into double figures, and will probably closer to the 2.6% of the Referendum Party.

    The Lib Dems could be about to unleash a terrible revenge.
    3% or so would be my best guess for Reform.
    If that is right, then the recent vote figures and the slightly radical conclusions could be relevant to the GE result.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,657

    nico679 said:

    Man Utd are awful .

    Atrocious defending and the manager really should walk .

    Agreed
    Up in your part of the world this week, Big G. Staying near Portmerion, but we did a circuit through Betts-y-coed, Conwy, Caernarfon today. Just superb spring weather and the place could not have looked better. First time the wife has been up here, so she was very impressed!

    More steam trains tomorrow.
    It was the Transport Extravaganza in Llandudno this weekend and it was absolutely jam packed and perfect weather yesterday

    Apparently 7 miles queues on the A55 going home and it was not surprising

    Enjoy your steam trains and hope you have many trips here in the future
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,120
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    I have no idea about Labour as I have always been in LD/Tory seats, but I agree with all of that. I have always thought Tories were best at GOTV, mainly because I have been involved in campaign where we have been trying to convert and Tories trying to hold so that was key to them.
    Labour have a great GOTV operation when their backs are against the wall. Saw it a lot in 2010 - when they hit an estate hard, they create traffic jams and polling station queues like nobody else. It's a bit brutal - "right, you're coming to vote, sunshine" - but they do force the tribe out.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,318
    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,532
    Meanwhile, in the world's largest democracy:

    Thousands of videos allegedly showing an Indian MP sexually abusing women have circulated in the southern state of Karnataka, sparking outrage.

    Police are investigating allegations against Prajwal Revanna who is accused of assaulting several women.

    Mr Revanna has not commented but an official from his office denied this, saying the videos are doctored.

    The MP belongs to the Janata Dal (Secular) which is an ally of PM Narendra Modi's Bharatiya Janata Party.

    His father HD Revanna, who is a legislator in the Karnataka state assembly, is also an accused in the police complaint lodged by a former employee of the family. He has denied the allegations, calling them a political conspiracy.

    On Monday, the JD(S) announced it was suspending Prajwal Revanna. The party was founded by Mr Revanna's grandfather HD Deve Gowda, who is a former Indian prime minister.

    Karnataka's Chief Minister K Siddaramaiah said that a special investigation team (SIT) will look into the case, based on a request by the state's women's commission.

    The allegations against Mr Revanna first came to light in June last year, but he obtained a court order preventing media from reporting what was described as "morphed videos". But five days before the 26 April voting in Hassan - from where Mr Revanna is the MP and seeking another term - thousands of pen drives were circulated in public places such as bus stands and parks.

    The clips, which reports say were shot by Mr Revanna himself, showed the faces of the women he had allegedly abused.


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-68918326
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    RIP Bob Dennard (September 5, 1932 - April 23, 2024)

    His invention of dynamic random-access memory (DRAM) became the foundation for modern computer memory systems.

    His theory of transistor scaling physics, also known as Dennard scaling became the foundation of geometric transistor scaling.

    https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1787245339579478503
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,027
    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    Not that far off 1997 (43-31). If you offered that to Rishi and Keir, I wonder who would be first to bite your hand off?

    Though the other way of looking at it is that the Conservatives need to squash Reform back into a tiny box in order to do as well as Broken John Major did against Shiny New Blair.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,667

    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.

    I’ve put it off. Just can’t bear to watch anymore.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 54,557
    @SeaShantyIrish2

    The problem with American hikes is that the noom quotient per square mile is so low. You can go hours - days - entire weeks - without encountering anything interesting let alone noomy (Australia is even worse)

    It’s just dull. That’s why America is best seen by car. You can speed through the boring bits and get to the majestic landscapes (in which America abounds, especially in the west) and then it’s not boring. And the cities are compelling - but so far apart

    Europe, by contrast, is better seen on foot or on a bike in many places. In countries that are intensely noomy- like Italy or Britain - almost every 500 yards you will find something culturally or historically or poetically resonant

    America is gloriously vast. But that’s not good for walkers

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,657

    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.

    Eriksen plays with a pacemaker but hope I don't get a call from United tomorrow as I may show some of them up !!!
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,119

    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.

    Eriksen plays with a pacemaker but hope I don't get a call from United tomorrow as I may show some of them up !!!
    At least you’d want to play for the club!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,547

    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    Not that far off 1997 (43-31). If you offered that to Rishi and Keir, I wonder who would be first to bite your hand off?

    Though the other way of looking at it is that the Conservatives need to squash Reform back into a tiny box in order to do as well as Broken John Major did against Shiny New Blair.
    The 1996 local elections were 43-29, so Labour are not doing so well as in the lead-in to the 1997 GE.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,657
    DavidL said:

    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.

    I’ve put it off. Just can’t bear to watch anymore.
    It is utterly shocking and unsurviable for ETH

    Carrick to take us into the cup final !!!!
  • BlancheLivermoreBlancheLivermore Posts: 5,809
    Leon said:

    @SeaShantyIrish2

    The problem with American hikes is that the noom quotient per square mile is so low. You can go hours - days - entire weeks - without encountering anything interesting let alone noomy (Australia is even worse)

    It’s just dull. That’s why America is best seen by car. You can speed through the boring bits and get to the majestic landscapes (in which America abounds, especially in the west) and then it’s not boring. And the cities are compelling - but so far apart

    Europe, by contrast, is better seen on foot or on a bike in many places. In countries that are intensely noomy- like Italy or Britain - almost every 500 yards you will find something culturally or historically or poetically resonant

    America is gloriously vast. But that’s not good for walkers

    Epic landscapes can make up for a lack of old building noom
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,667
    Nigelb said:

    RIP Bob Dennard (September 5, 1932 - April 23, 2024)

    His invention of dynamic random-access memory (DRAM) became the foundation for modern computer memory systems.

    His theory of transistor scaling physics, also known as Dennard scaling became the foundation of geometric transistor scaling.

    https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1787245339579478503

    I am really embarrassed to admit that I have never heard of him.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,667

    DavidL said:

    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.

    I’ve put it off. Just can’t bear to watch anymore.
    It is utterly shocking and unsurviable for ETH

    Carrick to take us into the cup final !!!!
    The sad thing is that there is nothing shocking about it at all. This is the way they have played for most of the season. No hint of teamwork.
  • squareroot2squareroot2 Posts: 6,654
    Man U are playing for their Manager to get the boot......
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,033
    edited May 6
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,640

    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    Not that far off 1997 (43-31). If you offered that to Rishi and Keir, I wonder who would be first to bite your hand off?

    Though the other way of looking at it is that the Conservatives need to squash Reform back into a tiny box in order to do as well as Broken John Major did against Shiny New Blair.
    In England & Wales, it was 44-33. So Labour back, Tories almost there, but LDs and Inds are doing better in those figures than I'd expect at a GE.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,119
    Andy_JS said:
    I nibbled on Jones at 33, and I’m hoping I don’t need to cash out…
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,318

    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.

    Eriksen plays with a pacemaker but hope I don't get a call from United tomorrow as I may show some of them up !!!
    He should never have left Brentford. I don’t know how it is that Man Utd can make so many good players mediocre. Jadon Sancho is another case in point.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,640
    I have to admit, for most of 2015-19, if you told me Brexit would be decided by the end of the decade, I didn't think the LDs would still be winning elections by now.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 62,657

    OK Man U. Just to say hands off Carrick. He’s got a job to do next season.

    Eriksen plays with a pacemaker but hope I don't get a call from United tomorrow as I may show some of them up !!!
    He should never have left Brentford. I don’t know how it is that Man Utd can make so many good players mediocre. Jadon Sancho is another case in point.
    Sancho is ETH responsibility due to lack of management but he simply is not good enough to manage Man Utd
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,387
    Leon said:

    @SeaShantyIrish2

    The problem with American hikes is that the noom quotient per square mile is so low. You can go hours - days - entire weeks - without encountering anything interesting let alone noomy (Australia is even worse)

    It’s just dull. That’s why America is best seen by car. You can speed through the boring bits and get to the majestic landscapes (in which America abounds, especially in the west) and then it’s not boring. And the cities are compelling - but so far apart

    Europe, by contrast, is better seen on foot or on a bike in many places. In countries that are intensely noomy- like Italy or Britain - almost every 500 yards you will find something culturally or historically or poetically resonant

    America is gloriously vast. But that’s not good for walkers

    This is the complaint about the Appalachian Trail - the "Green Tunnel". Even the PCT, which I've considered doing in the past, had large sections of monotony.

    However, that is the attraction for some people. Full immersion.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    Five years on and after a string of by-election successes including the likes of Mid Beds, Selby and Tamworth, you might want to reevaluate that opinion. Labour have also been pretty good at targeting recently, the decision to abandon Tees Valley and pile everything into the West Midlands mayoral contest having probably made the difference between winning and losing.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    DavidL said:

    Nigelb said:

    RIP Bob Dennard (September 5, 1932 - April 23, 2024)

    His invention of dynamic random-access memory (DRAM) became the foundation for modern computer memory systems.

    His theory of transistor scaling physics, also known as Dennard scaling became the foundation of geometric transistor scaling.

    https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1787245339579478503

    I am really embarrassed to admit that I have never heard of him.
    It took a lot of engineers to make the U.S. chip industry possible, and most people will have heard only of the really famous ones like Shockley, Noyce, or Moore.

    Part of that is just commercial success, of course, which brings its own publicity.

    But Dennard scaling is what led to the realisation of what got called Moore's law.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    edited May 6

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    Five years on and after a string of by-election successes including the likes of Mid Beds, Selby and Tamworth, you might want to reevaluate that opinion. Labour have also been pretty good at targeting recently, the decision to abandon Tees Valley and pile everything into the West Midlands mayoral contest having probably made the difference between winning and losing.
    They won those by elections because of their big opinion poll leads after over a decade in opposition NOT because of their ground game getting their voters out. Choosing which seats and regions to target also is a tactical decision, it is not the same as having accurate canvass data which is up to date and then getting your voters out to the polls on election day with final leaflets and pledge letters focused on your supporters and knocking up your pledged voters, which is what ground game is.

    Part of the reason Labour lost so many redwall seats in 2019 was they had been so complacent there they hadn't bothered to canvass most of the seats for decades and most election campaigns just consisted of putting 1 leaflet out if that
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 122,026
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    Five years on and after a string of by-election successes including the likes of Mid Beds, Selby and Tamworth, you might want to reevaluate that opinion. Labour have also been pretty good at targeting recently, the decision to abandon Tees Valley and pile everything into the West Midlands mayoral contest having probably made the difference between winning and losing.
    They won those by elections because of their big opinion poll leads after over a decade in opposition NOT because of their ground game getting their voters out. Choosing which seats and regions to target also is a tactical decision, it is not the same as having accurate canvass data which is up to date and then getting your voters out to the polls on election day with final leaflets and pledge letters focused on your supporters and knocking up your pledged voters, which is what ground game is.

    Part of the reason Labour lost so many redwall seats in 2019 was they had been so complacent there they hadn't bothered to canvass most of the seats for decades and most election campaigns just consisted of putting 1 leaflet out if that
    Same thing was seen in the formerly safe Labour central belt seats which had been Labour for decades in Scotland they lost in 2015
  • Jim_MillerJim_Miller Posts: 2,939
    I see our operatives have done good work, steering certain visitors away from interesting views in the US. Imagine, for instance, how well they worked to keep one frequent traveler away from Kentucky's auto factories. (More automobiles are assembled in that little state than in all of the UK.)

    But, as I am feeling compassionate, let me mention an event almost any adventurous traveler would like to see or, even better, participate in: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-66206671

    (There will be another one this year, probably about the same time as last year. https://winknews.com/2024/01/18/python-patrol-training-fwc-online-free/ )
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,027
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    Five years on and after a string of by-election successes including the likes of Mid Beds, Selby and Tamworth, you might want to reevaluate that opinion. Labour have also been pretty good at targeting recently, the decision to abandon Tees Valley and pile everything into the West Midlands mayoral contest having probably made the difference between winning and losing.
    They won those by elections because of their big opinion poll leads after over a decade in opposition NOT because of their ground game getting their voters out. Choosing which seats and regions to target also is a tactical decision, it is not the same as having accurate canvass data which is up to date and then getting your voters out to the polls on election day with final leaflets and pledge letters focused on your supporters and knocking up your pledged voters, which is what ground game is.

    Part of the reason Labour lost so many redwall seats in 2019 was they had been so complacent there they hadn't bothered to canvass most of the seats for decades and most election campaigns just consisted of putting 1 leaflet out if that
    Same thing was seen in the formerly safe Labour central belt seats which had been Labour for decades in Scotland they lost in 2015
    One of the factors that turned defeat into a rout in 1997 on the blue side as well.

    Où est la masse de manœuvre?
    Aucune


    Phone banks make it easier to shift campaign firepower round the country (though pleny of constituency parties struggle to shift people from one ward to another), but that still needs HQ to decide what numbers to give the phone bankers.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,604
    Scott_xP said:

    @ABLPoli
    I hadn't seen this analysis yet. ALL of England and Wales voted last Thursday.

    They voted for either PCCs or mayors with PCC powers, the result of the 12millions votes cast in those ballots:

    Lab: 40.9%
    Con: 31.8%
    Lib Dem: 13.1%
    Ind/Other: 7.0%
    Green: 4.8%
    Ref: 1.6%
    Plaid: 0.8%

    @JamesKanag

    Very interesting. Slightly suggests the voting intention polls are off on the conservatives (i.e not 18%) but that beneath the surface Labour are inflicting significant damage due to proportional swing at the seat level on a much more modest vote share lead of 10-12 points

    Re above comments: turnout was higher in the Mayoral elections which were all won by Labour (bar one).

    Whereas the PCCs where the Conservatives did much better (winning 19 out of 33 in England) had lower turnout.

    So if this is a straight vote aggregation the differential turnout has actually adversely impacted the Conservatives.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,324
    edited May 6


    The game with Newcastle could become a knockout between Conference League or no Europe of any kind for Man United. They've got Arsenal too. A negative goal difference really doesn't deserve European football.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,200

    Good, but tough, day today. I've walked 47km, with loads of climbing. I felt bold after 20km by 11:30am so booked a place 30km further on

    After 10km the route split, and the alternative route, described as the traditional route, was a few kilometres less, and more importantly offered shade as the sun had just quite fiercely showed itself after a cool, cloudy morning

    So I set off on Saint Jacob's way, still officially part of the Camino de Santiago, but with fewer stops in towns than the new route. I was already stocked up with snacks and beer, so went for it

    I took a wrong turn, and ended up climbing a very steep hill in blazing sunshine, but the next 10km were easy walking through woodland hilltop paths

    Then as I came out of the woods I stumbled upon some noom

    I found the ruins of an ancient, nearly 1,000 year old, monastery at a place called Zarapuz

    I don't know if the noom would be available to lazy, impatient travel journalists, or anyone who stops there without the effort, but I certainly felt it

    I sat on the ledge of the opening in the front wall for a good fifteen minutes (with a beer break of course!)

    It's a place where pilgrims stopped, on the traditional route, for hundreds of years before it fell to ruin, and I was there totally alone. I didn't see another soul within two or three miles either side

    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarapuz




    Nice to follow your reports, particularly to get away from the grim stuff about Gaza.

    This site covers Spanish Romanesque and is the best thing still on Twitter in my view.

    https://twitter.com/romanicoespana
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,561

    Leon said:

    @SeaShantyIrish2

    The problem with American hikes is that the noom quotient per square mile is so low. You can go hours - days - entire weeks - without encountering anything interesting let alone noomy (Australia is even worse)

    It’s just dull. That’s why America is best seen by car. You can speed through the boring bits and get to the majestic landscapes (in which America abounds, especially in the west) and then it’s not boring. And the cities are compelling - but so far apart

    Europe, by contrast, is better seen on foot or on a bike in many places. In countries that are intensely noomy- like Italy or Britain - almost every 500 yards you will find something culturally or historically or poetically resonant

    America is gloriously vast. But that’s not good for walkers

    Epic landscapes can make up for a lack of old building noom
    Even world famous landscapes can totally lack noom. The Grand Canyon is one.

    Rock up at the rim, peer over, yeah, that's what I thought it would look like, shrug.

    To be fair, I spent a week walking down to the bottom and back with a tent, and that was different. Rafting it is probably also worthwhile.

    But just to look at - meh.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,212
    dixiedean said:

    nico679 said:

    Man Utd are awful .

    Atrocious defending and the manager really should walk .

    Moyes is available.
    As is Rooney...
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,033
    TRUSS.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    Five years on and after a string of by-election successes including the likes of Mid Beds, Selby and Tamworth, you might want to reevaluate that opinion. Labour have also been pretty good at targeting recently, the decision to abandon Tees Valley and pile everything into the West Midlands mayoral contest having probably made the difference between winning and losing.
    They won those by elections because of their big opinion poll leads after over a decade in opposition NOT because of their ground game getting their voters out. Choosing which seats and regions to target also is a tactical decision, it is not the same as having accurate canvass data which is up to date and then getting your voters out to the polls on election day with final leaflets and pledge letters focused on your supporters and knocking up your pledged voters, which is what ground game is
    Yes I am of course fully aware of what ground game is and that accurate targeting is not part of it, but if you target the wrong constituencies as Jo Swinson for example found out to her personal cost then the ground game counts for nothing. I just couldn't help myself throwing the West Midlands mayorality into the mix though given how Saturday evening played out for the Conservatives after Labour targeted that contest.

    Had you any real knowledge of how Labour operate on the ground nowadays you might revise your opinion of its ground game. Things have moved on a lot in recent years using technology to model potential supporters from those uncanvassed. The approach to canvassing has also changed a lot in the direction of identifying not just supporters but also swing voters and their issues of particular concern, all for follow up messaging, and all transferred onto databases in real time. Very different to what happened a few years ago. Now the Conservatives may be doing all that too for all that I know, but what is clear is that Labour also have many more membership resources on the ground to exploit the information gained to deliver follow up, such that there's not an overreliance on paid-for leaflet delivery alone.

    You can choose if you wish to claim that swings in by-elections that consistently match post war records reflect solely the public's rejection of the extreme awfulness of the present government as opposed to a combination of slightly less extreme awfulness combined with the improved Labour by-election ground game that I've witnessed personally. I don't see how a definitive view on that can be reached.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 4,464
    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    I have no idea about Labour as I have always been in LD/Tory seats, but I agree with all of that. I have always thought Tories were best at GOTV, mainly because I have been involved in campaign where we have been trying to convert and Tories trying to hold so that was key to them.
    Well there was a time when the question "how do you get a Tory to turn out and vote" could be simply answered by "hold an election", but no longer, I think.
  • EabhalEabhal Posts: 8,387

    Leon said:

    @SeaShantyIrish2

    The problem with American hikes is that the noom quotient per square mile is so low. You can go hours - days - entire weeks - without encountering anything interesting let alone noomy (Australia is even worse)

    It’s just dull. That’s why America is best seen by car. You can speed through the boring bits and get to the majestic landscapes (in which America abounds, especially in the west) and then it’s not boring. And the cities are compelling - but so far apart

    Europe, by contrast, is better seen on foot or on a bike in many places. In countries that are intensely noomy- like Italy or Britain - almost every 500 yards you will find something culturally or historically or poetically resonant

    America is gloriously vast. But that’s not good for walkers

    Epic landscapes can make up for a lack of old building noom
    Even world famous landscapes can totally lack noom. The Grand Canyon is one.

    Rock up at the rim, peer over, yeah, that's what I thought it would look like, shrug.

    To be fair, I spent a week walking down to the bottom and back with a tent, and that was different. Rafting it is probably also worthwhile.

    But just to look at - meh.
    On the other hand, the Teesside skyline has a certain noom quality. The Transporter Bridge, the chemical works, the turbines.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,976
    MJW said:

    On topic, two things stick out about that kind of result or similar ones.

    Firstly - the SNP losing their third party status at Westminster would be a bit of a blow.

    Second that SP would be very messy Labour and the Lib Dems a nice fit, but not the Greens as are crackers and pro-Indy. SLab and SLib would just have to dare them to not vote stuff down.

    Lorna Slater has stated that independence would not be a’red line’ for the Scottish Green Party if labour offered a role such as they had with the BHA.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    edited May 6
    China hacks MoD
    Assasination attempt in Riyadh on Bin Salman.

    Its going off, buckle up buttercups
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,335
    edited May 6
    Andy_JS said:

    TRUSS.

    Mornington Crescent.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,157
    Labour should stick to their main targets and not waste resources and the risk of splitting votes by going after seats that will be much harder to win .

    Barring a few areas the south is primarily Tory/Lib Dem territory .
  • DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    kjh said:

    FPT

    So the Tories plan to waste effort on trying to defend seats they are certain to lose, while ignoring those where they have a chance of holding. Excellent.

    Mind, I always maintain that the 'ground game' is a total waste of time and energy when it comes to general elections. So it matters not.

    With regard to the 2nd paragraph it is the only way the LDs win seats. The ground game is essential. If you want proof of that look at the Surrey Police Commissioner vote in Surrey broken down borough by borough. In Guildford, one of the very top LD targets for the GE there were no locals so no campaigning for locals. The Tories won the vote by 1000 in Guildford Borough, however in Woking and Mole Valley which had locals so where the LDs were campaigning hard they beat the Tory in the Police Commissioner election by a significant margin, yet these are lower targets than Guildford in the GE. Pretty conclusive evidence of the ground game working.
    Yes plus in my experience the LDs have the best ground game in their target seats, the Tories the second best and Labour are normally worst (Reform have virtually no ground game at all). I remember in Chingford in 2019 there were lots of Labour activists but half of them had no idea where they were going!
    I have no idea about Labour as I have always been in LD/Tory seats, but I agree with all of that. I have always thought Tories were best at GOTV, mainly because I have been involved in campaign where we have been trying to convert and Tories trying to hold so that was key to them.
    Well there was a time when the question "how do you get a Tory to turn out and vote" could be simply answered by "hold an election", but no longer, I think.
    Hold an election AND show him immigrants thrown into vans on their way to deportation.
    John Hayes reckons "half a dozen more headlines like that" will be enough to win the general election.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,200
    Interesting analysis

    Green line: Thatcher
    * The top 50% did very well
    * The 25-50% bottom income groups did ok
    * The bottom 25% did terribly

    Blue line: Blair
    * The bottom 30% did well
    * Everyone else did OK

    Teal Line: Lib / Tories
    * Every group did badly
    * Best results don't match Blair's worst





    https://twitter.com/LabBeyondCities/status/1787471405761622160
  • 试验
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,335
    nico679 said:

    Labour should stick to their main targets and not waste resources and the risk of splitting votes by going after seats that will be much harder to win .

    Barring a few areas the south is primarily Tory/Lib Dem territory .

    Yep. Just give the Libs a free roll at the stockbroker belt seats to the S and SW of London. There a few Labour-ish sorts of seats in the northern Home Counties which might be worth a push as I recall. But mostly, you are right.

  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    nico679 said:

    Labour should stick to their main targets and not waste resources and the risk of splitting votes by going after seats that will be much harder to win .

    Barring a few areas the south is primarily Tory/Lib Dem territory .

    Redfield and Wilton disagree in their Blue Wall polling of Tory held seats in the south, which when aggregated has Labour 1st and the LDs 3rd.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,324

    试验

    准备发射
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,324
    FF43 said:

    Interesting analysis

    Green line: Thatcher
    * The top 50% did very well
    * The 25-50% bottom income groups did ok
    * The bottom 25% did terribly

    Blue line: Blair
    * The bottom 30% did well
    * Everyone else did OK

    Teal Line: Lib / Tories
    * Every group did badly
    * Best results don't match Blair's worst





    https://twitter.com/LabBeyondCities/status/1787471405761622160

    Didn't need a graph to tell me that.
  • DonkeysDonkeys Posts: 723
    The IRM are landing a psychological blow against Israel today, but the Al Jazeera analysis focusing on the importance of Netanyahu is mistaken.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,324
    edited May 6

    nico679 said:

    Labour should stick to their main targets and not waste resources and the risk of splitting votes by going after seats that will be much harder to win .

    Barring a few areas the south is primarily Tory/Lib Dem territory .

    Redfield and Wilton disagree in their Blue Wall polling of Tory held seats in the south, which when aggregated has Labour 1st and the LDs 3rd.
    It's a bit like when you need a single to win with two overs remaining, but are bowled the dirtiest longhop imaginable.
    Do you hit it out of the ground for the lols and risk being clean bowled or block it to midon for the quick single?
    I should imagine I know what SKS would do.
  • FlatlanderFlatlander Posts: 4,561
    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    @SeaShantyIrish2

    The problem with American hikes is that the noom quotient per square mile is so low. You can go hours - days - entire weeks - without encountering anything interesting let alone noomy (Australia is even worse)

    It’s just dull. That’s why America is best seen by car. You can speed through the boring bits and get to the majestic landscapes (in which America abounds, especially in the west) and then it’s not boring. And the cities are compelling - but so far apart

    Europe, by contrast, is better seen on foot or on a bike in many places. In countries that are intensely noomy- like Italy or Britain - almost every 500 yards you will find something culturally or historically or poetically resonant

    America is gloriously vast. But that’s not good for walkers

    Epic landscapes can make up for a lack of old building noom
    Even world famous landscapes can totally lack noom. The Grand Canyon is one.

    Rock up at the rim, peer over, yeah, that's what I thought it would look like, shrug.

    To be fair, I spent a week walking down to the bottom and back with a tent, and that was different. Rafting it is probably also worthwhile.

    But just to look at - meh.
    On the other hand, the Teesside skyline has a certain noom quality. The Transporter Bridge, the chemical works, the turbines.
    Yes, agree. Tyneside, too, dare one say it.


    I think what would annoy me most about the US long distance trails is the trail part.

    I appreciate that sometimes the terrain is too hard unless a built trail exists but the lack of jeopardy in route choice makes it a bit dull. Follow the signs for 2000km...
  • SirNorfolkPassmoreSirNorfolkPassmore Posts: 7,120
    dixiedean said:



    The game with Newcastle could become a knockout between Conference League or no Europe of any kind for Man United. They've got Arsenal too. A negative goal difference really doesn't deserve European football.

    Is there any real point in the Conference League for a team like Man Utd?

    I get that it gave West Ham a first trophy in many years, and a route into European football. But a former Champions League winner playing in the third tier competition with the second best Slovenia has to offer or whatever is all a bit demeaning. It's not going to be an attraction to new players or fans, and it'll all be extra games to play. I suspect they'd sooner not bother and write the season off.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,656
    nico679 said:

    Labour should stick to their main targets and not waste resources and the risk of splitting votes by going after seats that will be much harder to win .

    Barring a few areas the south is primarily Tory/Lib Dem territory .

    Labour are second in a surprising number of shire seats. They are often nowhere in local government terms in the same areas, but it could save the Tories a few potentially vulnerable seats - in by-elections in such situations voters have gone LD in a big way on several occasions even where they were a distant third, but in a GE with the big story being Lab vs Con? I could see it being more confused.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,324

    dixiedean said:



    The game with Newcastle could become a knockout between Conference League or no Europe of any kind for Man United. They've got Arsenal too. A negative goal difference really doesn't deserve European football.

    Is there any real point in the Conference League for a team like Man Utd?

    I get that it gave West Ham a first trophy in many years, and a route into European football. But a former Champions League winner playing in the third tier competition with the second best Slovenia has to offer or whatever is all a bit demeaning. It's not going to be an attraction to new players or fans, and it'll all be extra games to play. I suspect they'd sooner not bother and write the season off.
    Well. There are plenty of others who would consider it an honour.
    Don't want it? Then fuck off.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037
    edited May 6

    China hacks MoD
    Assasination attempt in Riyadh on Bin Salman.

    Its going off, buckle up buttercups

    Ok my apologies, the report on the Assassination attempt is unconfirmed. Widely being reported but no official word. If its not correct i apologise unreservedly for being 'that guy' with the fake news
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285

    试验

    Wondered what you’d been up to since that recent test launch mishap.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 70,285
    Evidence of the mechanisms which link the gut microbiome to various aspects of human health is steadily accumulating, since the advent of cheap mass gene sequencing.

    A high-fat diet promotes cancer progression by inducing gut microbiota–mediated leucine production and PMN-MDSC differentiation
    https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2306776121
  • DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 1,127

    dixiedean said:



    The game with Newcastle could become a knockout between Conference League or no Europe of any kind for Man United. They've got Arsenal too. A negative goal difference really doesn't deserve European football.

    Is there any real point in the Conference League for a team like Man Utd?

    I get that it gave West Ham a first trophy in many years, and a route into European football. But a former Champions League winner playing in the third tier competition with the second best Slovenia has to offer or whatever is all a bit demeaning. It's not going to be an attraction to new players or fans, and it'll all be extra games to play. I suspect they'd sooner not bother and write the season off.
    It would give coefficient points to get a better seeding in other European competitions. Not sure that's enough to balance the other factors but it is a reason to compete.

  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,335

    dixiedean said:



    The game with Newcastle could become a knockout between Conference League or no Europe of any kind for Man United. They've got Arsenal too. A negative goal difference really doesn't deserve European football.

    Is there any real point in the Conference League for a team like Man Utd?

    I get that it gave West Ham a first trophy in many years, and a route into European football. But a former Champions League winner playing in the third tier competition with the second best Slovenia has to offer or whatever is all a bit demeaning. It's not going to be an attraction to new players or fans, and it'll all be extra games to play. I suspect they'd sooner not bother and write the season off.
    You are really not exploding the myth of United fans there. Lots of big clubs with huge honours to their name, like Forest and Everton, would be delighted to qualify for that tournament. I’m sure if United think it below them they can raffle the place off to the hoi polloi.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,324

    dixiedean said:



    The game with Newcastle could become a knockout between Conference League or no Europe of any kind for Man United. They've got Arsenal too. A negative goal difference really doesn't deserve European football.

    Is there any real point in the Conference League for a team like Man Utd?

    I get that it gave West Ham a first trophy in many years, and a route into European football. But a former Champions League winner playing in the third tier competition with the second best Slovenia has to offer or whatever is all a bit demeaning. It's not going to be an attraction to new players or fans, and it'll all be extra games to play. I suspect they'd sooner not bother and write the season off.
    You are really not exploding the myth of United fans there. Lots of big clubs with huge honours to their name, like Forest and Everton, would be delighted to qualify for that tournament. I’m sure if United think it below them they can raffle the place off to the hoi polloi.
    Spot on.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,762

    China hacks MoD
    Assasination attempt in Riyadh on Bin Salman.

    Its going off, buckle up buttercups

    Ok my apologies, the report on the Assassination attempt is unconfirmed. Widely being reported but no official word. If its not correct i apologise unreservedly for being 'that guy' with the fake news
    FFS!

    That’s Leon’s job.
  • EPGEPG Posts: 6,640
    FF43 said:

    Interesting analysis

    Green line: Thatcher
    * The top 50% did very well
    * The 25-50% bottom income groups did ok
    * The bottom 25% did terribly

    Blue line: Blair
    * The bottom 30% did well
    * Everyone else did OK

    Teal Line: Lib / Tories
    * Every group did badly
    * Best results don't match Blair's worst





    https://twitter.com/LabBeyondCities/status/1787471405761622160

    Government policy doesn't determine sustainable growth in incomes. You can't "be more Blair" and bring that number up by 1% a year. That takes things like growth in global markets, or expanding the amount of mortgage debt fuelling national incomes, which are one-shot things if you even have any control over them.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,335

    nico679 said:

    Labour should stick to their main targets and not waste resources and the risk of splitting votes by going after seats that will be much harder to win .

    Barring a few areas the south is primarily Tory/Lib Dem territory .

    Redfield and Wilton disagree in their Blue Wall polling of Tory held seats in the south, which when aggregated has Labour 1st and the LDs 3rd.
    - So Mr Wilton, I contend that of Conservative held seats in the south of England, Labour is first and the Liberal Democratic Party third. Do you agree?

    - I’m afraid I do not, Mr Redfield. I disagree, quite fundamentally.

    - Oh, I see. You see that dried poo, Mr Wilton, on that squirrel’s anus?

    - Yes, yes, I see it. What of it?

    - That’s you that is.
  • megasaurmegasaur Posts: 586

    Eabhal said:

    Leon said:

    @SeaShantyIrish2

    The problem with American hikes is that the noom quotient per square mile is so low. You can go hours - days - entire weeks - without encountering anything interesting let alone noomy (Australia is even worse)

    It’s just dull. That’s why America is best seen by car. You can speed through the boring bits and get to the majestic landscapes (in which America abounds, especially in the west) and then it’s not boring. And the cities are compelling - but so far apart

    Europe, by contrast, is better seen on foot or on a bike in many places. In countries that are intensely noomy- like Italy or Britain - almost every 500 yards you will find something culturally or historically or poetically resonant

    America is gloriously vast. But that’s not good for walkers

    Epic landscapes can make up for a lack of old building noom
    Even world famous landscapes can totally lack noom. The Grand Canyon is one.

    Rock up at the rim, peer over, yeah, that's what I thought it would look like, shrug.

    To be fair, I spent a week walking down to the bottom and back with a tent, and that was different. Rafting it is probably also worthwhile.

    But just to look at - meh.
    On the other hand, the Teesside skyline has a certain noom quality. The Transporter Bridge, the chemical works, the turbines.
    Yes, agree. Tyneside, too, dare one say it.


    I think what would annoy me most about the US long distance trails is the trail part.

    I appreciate that sometimes the terrain is too hard unless a built trail exists but the lack of jeopardy in route choice makes it a bit dull. Follow the signs for 2000km...
    Google Geraldine Largay, or more generally Appalachian trail deaths and disappearances. American wildernesses are a lot scarier than other sorts, even with marked trails to follow.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 95,656

    China hacks MoD
    Assasination attempt in Riyadh on Bin Salman.

    Its going off, buckle up buttercups

    Ok my apologies, the report on the Assassination attempt is unconfirmed. Widely being reported but no official word. If its not correct i apologise unreservedly for being 'that guy' with the fake news
    FFS!

    That’s Leon’s job.
    It's a competitive field.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 32,033
    More problems at Boeing.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68966894

    "The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

    The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

    It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

    Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

    Boeing did not comment."
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,324
    edited May 6
    站稳脚跟不要惊慌.
    Apologies to those who aren't following this to and fro as closely as usual.
  • wooliedyedwooliedyed Posts: 10,037

    China hacks MoD
    Assasination attempt in Riyadh on Bin Salman.

    Its going off, buckle up buttercups

    Ok my apologies, the report on the Assassination attempt is unconfirmed. Widely being reported but no official word. If its not correct i apologise unreservedly for being 'that guy' with the fake news
    FFS!

    That’s Leon’s job.
    Yeah its looking increadingly like i swallowed a bucket of horse shit.
    How embarassing.
    Sorry lads and lasses, naughty step for me :/
This discussion has been closed.