Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
KAC108 from Heathrow to Kuwait is on an odd flight path.
Turned back from near Ankara to fly south across the Med when the warning came, but then turned back towards Israel and in the last minutes has overflown north of Jerusalem and on over Jordan.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
When did history start, the day before yesterday. Iran has for decades supported a war via proxy against Israel. Now they seem to be trying to go direct. Finally. Yet you blame Israel.
You need to take a moment to work out whose values you align with. Those of Iran or those of Israel.
Let us know when you have decided.
Nor was the embassy attack the first time that Israel has attacked Iran - let's be honest here.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
The strike on the consulate was the right thing to do and an entirely legitimate strike though.
Or do you deny Israel the right to defend herself and strike Hamas targets? Should only Hamas targets in Palestine be struck at?
So if all the Iranian drones get shot down before doing any damage do we have to reverse the calls to invest loads of defence spending on drones? Could it be that AirPower is still the most important component in the military for defence?
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
Re your last sentence that is not going to happen
Fight the war long enough and it will happen.
The Nazis too had no intention of surrendering. Eventually they did.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
You need to see the bigger picture here. For all his (many) failings WSC was right in his attitude to the Narzees. Bibi is or may be for sure a bad man but you need to choose a side in this war. And Bibi is on the right one, much as you may dislike that fact.
So if all the Iranian drones get shot down before doing any damage do we have to reverse the calls to invest loads of defence spending on drones? Could it be that AirPower is still the most important component in the military for defence?
The drones we have seen used in Ukraine, provided by the Iranians, fly at a medium altitude at the speed of a light aircraft. In straight lines.
A WWII radar directed AA battery, with proximity fuses would probably get all of them, if in the right place.
KAC108 from Heathrow to Kuwait is on an odd flight path.
Turned back from near Ankara to fly south across the Med when the warning came, but then turned back towards Israel and in the last minutes has overflown north of Jerusalem and on over Jordan.
Several Turkish Airlines flights over Iran at the moment.
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
The strike on the consulate was the right thing to do and an entirely legitimate strike though.
Or do you deny Israel the right to defend herself and strike Hamas targets? Should only Hamas targets in Palestine be struck at?
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
When did history start, the day before yesterday. Iran has for decades supported a war via proxy against Israel. Now they seem to be trying to go direct. Finally. Yet you blame Israel.
You need to take a moment to work out whose values you align with. Those of Iran or those of Israel.
Let us know when you have decided.
Nor was the embassy attack the first time that Israel has attacked Iran - let's be honest here.
For sure. But Iran has been at war with Israel for decades. So bring it.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
"Zero time for the Iranian regime"
LOL
Is that as damning as the left gets.
What would Nazanin say.
Everyone hates the regime but the west can do without all this Israel Iran psychodrama . Things have got much worse since Trump pulled the US out of the nuclear deal .
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
Israel absolutely is fighting an existential campaign for its survival.
If Hamas aren't defeated militarily they'd kill every last Israeli "from sea to sea" if they could.
Israel has every right to defend herself and seek the same full, unconditional surrender of the enemy as we did. And we should support her in full in that fight.
In other more stable news, what bad luck this man has to find three judges exactly the same. (Jury selection starts on Monday barring any last minute miracle for Trump, to last probably 1-2 weeks apparently before the trial really gets going properly. It's the lowest level of potential felony of all his charges, so he's done well to get this to be the only trial to likely be before the election).
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
You need to see the bigger picture here. For all his (many) failings WSC was right in his attitude to the Narzees. Bibi is or may be for sure a bad man but you need to choose a side in this war. And Bibi is on the right one, much as you may dislike that fact.
My instinctive sympathies lie with Israel. But why the heck do I "need to choose a side"? I'd rather not thanks very much.
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
"Zero time for the Iranian regime"
LOL
Is that as damning as the left gets.
What would Nazanin say.
Everyone hates the regime but the west can do without all this Israel Iran psychodrama . Things have got much worse since Trump pulled the US out of the nuclear deal .
What does that mean. Sounds like western bien pensant on the one hand bollocks.
You seek to see the Iranian point of view because you are fortunate in being able to do so.
Those under direct Iranian threat, whether Israel or Nazanin, not so much.
"Iran says its attack on Israel ‘concludes’ matter of Israeli attack on its embassy
Iran’s mission to the UN says on X that its drone and missile attack on Israel was conducted “on the strength of Article 51 of the UN Charter pertaining to legitimate defense” and in response to Israel’s April 1 attack on its embassy in Damascus, Syria.
With the attack, “The matter can be deemed concluded,” says Iran.
“However, should the Israeli regime make another mistake, Iran’s response will be considerably more severe. It is a conflict between Iran and the rogue Israeli regime, from which the U.S. MUST STAY AWAY,” it added."
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Well I’m all for leaving the Middle East to it. It’s western supremacism to assume we should play an active role. It’s at least partly our fault the place is such a mess in the first place after our previous efforts at meddling.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
When did history start, the day before yesterday. Iran has for decades supported a war via proxy against Israel. Now they seem to be trying to go direct. Finally. Yet you blame Israel.
You need to take a moment to work out whose values you align with. Those of Iran or those of Israel.
Let us know when you have decided.
Iran is shit. Israel is shit.
What will happen is that lots more people will die.
What is also true is that despite all the good will they had Israel has thrown it all in the in and decided to behave incredibly badly, including attacking Iran.
Iran is backwards, repressive, clearly wants to destabilise the region, hates Israel and will kill lots of people to gets its way.
So if I had to choose, I would stand with Israel. But out of my own conviction I will stand with neither.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Well I’m all for leaving the Middle East to it. It’s western supremacism to assume we should play an active role. It’s at least partly our fault the place is such a mess in the first place after our previous efforts at meddling.
I agree with most of the sentiment, but I dispute 'western supremacism' is the reason. Russia gets involved and its not part of the west for a start.
Its on the doorstep of Europe so of course European powers watch very closely, whilst the USA is simply a global power interested in whatever takes its fancy.
And that seems more to the point than 'western supremacism'. It's more global power or regional power ism to focus on the area, and wisdom of active involvement is then a judgement call (the correct answer is to do so as little as humanly possible).
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
You are a war monger.
And you are a pacifist apologist for evil.
You've have been supporting Lord Halifax back in the day.
When it is necessary, a just war is better than an unjust peace.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Well I’m all for leaving the Middle East to it. It’s western supremacism to assume we should play an active role. It’s at least partly our fault the place is such a mess in the first place after our previous efforts at meddling.
Interesting. I mean looking at the various regimes in the middle east you are saying they should all be left alone to do their thing.
It's amazing that so many posters on PB are wholly ambivalent about repressive middle eastern theocratic regimes trying to exert their power over the region.
Even I don't want Hamas to lose @Dura_Ace saw it within himself to bomb their allies every day for a year or so.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Israel are bad guys too. They are all bad guys. Get this through your head.
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
"Zero time for the Iranian regime"
LOL
Is that as damning as the left gets.
What would Nazanin say.
Everyone hates the regime but the west can do without all this Israel Iran psychodrama . Things have got much worse since Trump pulled the US out of the nuclear deal .
What does that mean. Sounds like western bien pensant on the one hand bollocks.
You seek to see the Iranian point of view because you are fortunate in being able to do so.
Those under direct Iranian threat, whether Israel or Nazanin, not so much.
Attacking a consulate is akin to attacking the country . So if Iran let’s say wiped out the British consulate in another country that is classed as an attack on British soil . You can’t go round attacking consulates . That’s my point .
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
When did history start, the day before yesterday. Iran has for decades supported a war via proxy against Israel. Now they seem to be trying to go direct. Finally. Yet you blame Israel.
You need to take a moment to work out whose values you align with. Those of Iran or those of Israel.
Let us know when you have decided.
Iran is shit. Israel is shit.
What will happen is that lots more people will die.
What is also true is that despite all the good will they had Israel has thrown it all in the in and decided to behave incredibly badly, including attacking Iran.
Iran is backwards, repressive, clearly wants to destabilise the region, hates Israel and will kill lots of people to gets its way.
So if I had to choose, I would stand with Israel. But out of my own conviction I will stand with neither.
Just out of interest why do you equate Iran with Israel.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
You need to see the bigger picture here. For all his (many) failings WSC was right in his attitude to the Narzees. Bibi is or may be for sure a bad man but you need to choose a side in this war. And Bibi is on the right one, much as you may dislike that fact.
Bibi is right to defend Israel against Iran backed Hamas. How he executes this defence is the issue.
Choosing good over evil is one thing in war. When good becomes evil picking sides is less straightforward.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
If Israel was not in essence always on alert (not enough of one pre October apparently), would its existence be under genuine threat? I think the answer is probably yes.
That doesn't mean people have to agree with every Israeli reprisal action in Gaza, but that Iran and Syria are not currently planning a full scale invasion - presumably in part because Israel has taken a lot of steps to defend its territory which dissuades many enemies from trying it (though they have their own issues apart from that of course) - I don't think speaks against the general existential threat the nation faces were it to be complacent.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
When did history start, the day before yesterday. Iran has for decades supported a war via proxy against Israel. Now they seem to be trying to go direct. Finally. Yet you blame Israel.
You need to take a moment to work out whose values you align with. Those of Iran or those of Israel.
Let us know when you have decided.
Iran is shit. Israel is shit.
What will happen is that lots more people will die.
What is also true is that despite all the good will they had Israel has thrown it all in the in and decided to behave incredibly badly, including attacking Iran.
Iran is backwards, repressive, clearly wants to destabilise the region, hates Israel and will kill lots of people to gets its way.
So if I had to choose, I would stand with Israel. But out of my own conviction I will stand with neither.
Just out of interest why do you equate Iran with Israel.
I don't. See above.
Iran = Hamas < Israel.
I still choose to stand with none of them. It is layers of shit.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Israel are bad guys too. They are all bad guys. Get this through your head.
Hamas = Iran < Israel. But it's layers of shit.
Israel are not the bad guys.
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
What a load of bollocks. Even the US don't agree with you.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
You need to see the bigger picture here. For all his (many) failings WSC was right in his attitude to the Narzees. Bibi is or may be for sure a bad man but you need to choose a side in this war. And Bibi is on the right one, much as you may dislike that fact.
Bibi is right to defend Israel against Iran backed Hamas. How he executes this defence is the issue.
Choosing good over evil is one thing in war. When good becomes evil picking sides is less straightforward.
Which would have seen you check out of defending the UK after Dresden, presumably.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
You need to see the bigger picture here. For all his (many) failings WSC was right in his attitude to the Narzees. Bibi is or may be for sure a bad man but you need to choose a side in this war. And Bibi is on the right one, much as you may dislike that fact.
Bibi is right to defend Israel against Iran backed Hamas. How he executes this defence is the issue.
Choosing good over evil is one thing in war. When good becomes evil picking sides is less straightforward.
Well said Pete. Well said.
It is quite clear the "centre" has run out of patience with Israel's moronic approach.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
"Zero time for the Iranian regime"
LOL
Is that as damning as the left gets.
What would Nazanin say.
Everyone hates the regime but the west can do without all this Israel Iran psychodrama . Things have got much worse since Trump pulled the US out of the nuclear deal .
What does that mean. Sounds like western bien pensant on the one hand bollocks.
You seek to see the Iranian point of view because you are fortunate in being able to do so.
Those under direct Iranian threat, whether Israel or Nazanin, not so much.
Attacking a consulate is akin to attacking the country . So if Iran let’s say wiped out the British consulate in another country that is classed as an attack on British soil . You can’t go round attacking consulates . That’s my point .
Sky explained that Hezbollah were firing missiles into Israel directed from Irans embassy in Damascus hence the action by Israel
This is a far more complicated situation then many realise
When we visited Israel and the West Bank we visited the Golan Heights with Israeli tanks in the trees
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
What a load of bollocks. Even the US don't agree with you.
Actually if you spend more time reading what the US actually says and does, and less racist bullshit against our ally and the only democracy in the region, they do agree more with me than you.
The US and the UK wholeheartedly supports Israel's right to defend herself.
They'd like the war to end, Hamas to lay down their weapons, release the hostages and have a ceasefire. So would I. But its not happening.
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
What a load of bollocks. Even the US don't agree with you.
Actually if you spend more time reading what the US actually says and does, and less racist bullshit against our ally and the only democracy in the region, they do agree more with me than you.
The US and the UK wholeheartedly supports Israel's right to defend herself.
They'd like the war to end, Hamas to lay down their weapons, release the hostages and have a ceasefire. So would I. But its not happening.
I support Israel's right to defend itself. I also think they've thrown away all the goodwill they had and the way they are going about "defending themselves" is against international law.
Would Iran be doing this missile and drone attack if Israeli hasn’t attacked their consulate in Damascus ?
How Israel have hit the consulate in Damascus if it wasn't for the Iranian-backed attack on Israel last October and the fact a high ranking Hamas target was in the consulate to be hit?
The strike Israel did was entirely legitimate self-defence after it was struck first. Why do you ignore that? Do you only want Israel to strike against Palestinian targets?
I have zero time for the Iranian regime but Israel have forced their hand . Netenyahu knew what he was doing when he ordered the strike on the consulate .
"Zero time for the Iranian regime"
LOL
Is that as damning as the left gets.
What would Nazanin say.
Everyone hates the regime but the west can do without all this Israel Iran psychodrama . Things have got much worse since Trump pulled the US out of the nuclear deal .
What does that mean. Sounds like western bien pensant on the one hand bollocks.
You seek to see the Iranian point of view because you are fortunate in being able to do so.
Those under direct Iranian threat, whether Israel or Nazanin, not so much.
Attacking a consulate is akin to attacking the country . So if Iran let’s say wiped out the British consulate in another country that is classed as an attack on British soil . You can’t go round attacking consulates . That’s my point .
War is a dirty business. An existential war even dirtier. The rules of war are generally written by the victors to prevent a repeat of behaviour they have just indulged in.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
You are a war monger.
And you are a pacifist apologist for evil.
Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinians since 2008.
Hamas has killed only 1,800 Israelis since 2008.
At this point it's irrelevant. Bart is more pro killing children than the US or Israel have ever been. He'd happily have a war against Iran as he said earlier.
It's pointless arguing with this kind of nonsense.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
You are a war monger.
And you are a pacifist apologist for evil.
Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinians since 2008.
Hamas has killed only 1,800 Israelis since 2008.
Well done Israel.
The UK and our allies in Iraq led to the death of about 71k enemy combatants and 113k civilians.
We and our allies lost 4,825 people of which 179 were British.
Seems like Israel is doing a good job, proportionately, based on your numbers, don't you think? Continue to brag about what a good job Israel is doing all you like.
The UK and our allies in Iraq led to the death of about 71k enemy combatants and 113k civilians.
We and our allies lost 4,825 people of which 179 were British.
Seems like Israel is doing a good job, proportionately, based on your numbers, don't you think? Continue to brag about what a good job Israel is doing all you like.
You are completely off the deep end. God help you.
RAF jets involved in defence of Israel taking down some drones
How fortunate that the Iranian UN mission has said that the matter of the Israeli aggression against the embassy was concluded with the launch of the drones.
Eyes on the Israeli regime now. How will they further provoke, and how soon?
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
What a load of bollocks. Even the US don't agree with you.
Actually if you spend more time reading what the US actually says and does, and less racist bullshit against our ally and the only democracy in the region, they do agree more with me than you.
The US and the UK wholeheartedly supports Israel's right to defend herself.
They'd like the war to end, Hamas to lay down their weapons, release the hostages and have a ceasefire. So would I. But its not happening.
I support Israel's right to defend itself. I also think they've thrown away all the goodwill they had and the way they are going about "defending themselves" is against international law.
As the US have said.
Nothing racist about it. It's the truth.
Just as Russia have broken international law.
The US hasn't said that, because its fallacious bullshit.
The US has said it has "ironclad" support of Israel. Rightly so.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
You are a war monger.
And you are a pacifist apologist for evil.
Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinians since 2008.
Hamas has killed only 1,800 Israelis since 2008.
For goodness sake don't look at the casualty rate in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Well I’m all for leaving the Middle East to it. It’s western supremacism to assume we should play an active role. It’s at least partly our fault the place is such a mess in the first place after our previous efforts at meddling.
Interesting. I mean looking at the various regimes in the middle east you are saying they should all be left alone to do their thing.
It's amazing that so many posters on PB are wholly ambivalent about repressive middle eastern theocratic regimes trying to exert their power over the region.
Even I don't want Hamas to lose @Dura_Ace saw it within himself to bomb their allies every day for a year or so.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
What a load of bollocks. Even the US don't agree with you.
Actually if you spend more time reading what the US actually says and does, and less racist bullshit against our ally and the only democracy in the region, they do agree more with me than you.
The US and the UK wholeheartedly supports Israel's right to defend herself.
They'd like the war to end, Hamas to lay down their weapons, release the hostages and have a ceasefire. So would I. But its not happening.
I support Israel's right to defend itself. I also think they've thrown away all the goodwill they had and the way they are going about "defending themselves" is against international law.
As the US have said.
Nothing racist about it. It's the truth.
Just as Russia have broken international law.
The US hasn't said that, because its fallacious bullshit.
The US has said it has "ironclad" support of Israel. Rightly so.
The US is sending arms to Israel. Rightly so.
I support Israel's right to defend itself. But Israel has completely and utterly thrown away the goodwill it had.
It is starving children to death and is about to level a city which won't do anything but kill women and children.
You need to take a sit down and think about what you actually are advocating. As it won't achieve the objective of destroying Hamas.
Why so. Should they let themselves be attacked with no retaliation.
Israel attacked Iran first!
Would the fact that Iran is behind Hamas and a high ranking Hamas target was killed in that strike be of any news or relevance to you?
Or is it always the Jews Israel's fault?
You are being a real t*** tonight. Questioning Netanyahu's motives is not an attack on the right of existence for Israel. Bibi is a very bad man.
I've made an analogy of contrasting Israel and its war with WWII and the UK's own government of national unity just as Israel currently has.
That war ended with a change of government in WWII. I have no love for either Netanyahu or Likud. I'd love to nothing more see this war end and Netanyahu defeated in the next election.
But first things first. The war needs to be won and the enemy needs to surrender unconditionally.
You are a war monger.
And you are a pacifist apologist for evil.
Israel has killed 40,000 Palestinians since 2008.
Hamas has killed only 1,800 Israelis since 2008.
At this point it's irrelevant. Bart is more pro killing children than the US or Israel have ever been. He'd happily have a war against Iran as he said earlier.
It's pointless arguing with this kind of nonsense.
Why is it nonsense. They are at war. People die in war. If there is to be a war, or defensive actions against Iran as the news reports seem to be saying, it is Israel, the US, and the UK who are doing the fighting.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
The most incredible thing is that Israel had all of the good will of the world on its side, including unanimously across PB. The fact they have lost so many people is a testament to how badly they have screwed up.
Why is it nonsense. They are at war. People die in war. If there is to be a war, or defensive actions against Iran as the news reports seem to be saying, it is Israel, the US, and the UK who are doing the fighting.
Whose side are you on.
If I had to pick a side, it would be Israel's. But at this point I am really going to choose neither.
It's quite interesting that the Iranian military signalled the launch of the drones so forcefully in state media (along with what look like ghost reports of ballistic missile launches). It smacks of the kind of strike against US forces in Iraq that followed trump whacking that IRGC general (Suelmeini?) in 2021, where they signalled intent to the US and targeting in advance to ensure that nothing got seriously broken. I think they needed to strike Israel to respond to an attack on their territory (under the Vienna convention) but are doing so in a way that more or less ensures that Israel and its allies wreck most of the drones before they arrive. It's dangerous but looks calibrated on the low side of possible direct responses against Israel. Most leaders would follow the dance, but this is Bibi and the Ghouls we're talking about. Hopefully Biden yanks their chain.
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
What a load of bollocks. Even the US don't agree with you.
Actually if you spend more time reading what the US actually says and does, and less racist bullshit against our ally and the only democracy in the region, they do agree more with me than you.
The US and the UK wholeheartedly supports Israel's right to defend herself.
They'd like the war to end, Hamas to lay down their weapons, release the hostages and have a ceasefire. So would I. But its not happening.
I support Israel's right to defend itself. I also think they've thrown away all the goodwill they had and the way they are going about "defending themselves" is against international law.
As the US have said.
Nothing racist about it. It's the truth.
Just as Russia have broken international law.
The US hasn't said that, because its fallacious bullshit.
The US has said it has "ironclad" support of Israel. Rightly so.
The US is sending arms to Israel. Rightly so.
I support Israel's right to defend itself. But Israel has completely and utterly thrown away the goodwill it had.
It is starving children to death and is about to level a city which won't do anything but kill women and children.
You need to take a sit down and think about what you actually are advocating. As it won't achieve the objective of destroying Hamas.
It won't just kill women and children, it will kill Hamas fighters. They are the target.
The women and children would be saved if Hamas only lays down their arms and releases the hostages.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
If Israel was not in essence always on alert (not enough of one pre October apparently), would its existence be under genuine threat? I think the answer is probably yes.
That doesn't mean people have to agree with every Israeli reprisal action in Gaza, but that Iran and Syria are not currently planning a full scale invasion - presumably in part because Israel has taken a lot of steps to defend its territory which dissuades many enemies from trying it (though they have their own issues apart from that of course) - I don't think speaks against the general existential threat the nation faces were it to be complacent.
Yes that’s a fair point. It probably puts Israel on a par with, say, Latvia or Moldova. Thoigh Moldova is rather less protected by alliances than Israel (or Latvia).
But if the Latvian government started behaving towards its Russian minority like Israel and its settlers have behaved towards Palestinians, it would create some dilemmas for us.
This is what infuriates me about the Russia-Ukraine war. Russia has cooked up grievances that don’t exist, while exercising genocidal acts on a people it considers a subject race.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
The most incredible thing is that Israel had all of the good will of the world on its side, including unanimously across PB. The fact they have lost so many people is a testament to how badly they have screwed up.
Goodwill so long as they don't do anything to defend themselves or do anything to destroy Hamas.
I've asked for six months from you an alternative to destroy Hamas. So far . . . crickets.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
The most incredible thing is that Israel had all of the good will of the world on its side, including unanimously across PB. The fact they have lost so many people is a testament to how badly they have screwed up.
Goodwill so long as they don't do anything to defend themselves or do anything to destroy Hamas.
I've asked for six months from you an alternative to destroy Hamas. So far . . . crickets.
Six months? Bollocks.
I was fully supportive of Israel until a few weeks ago.
Why not ask all the other people that have lost faith in Israel? You act like it's me - but it's mostly everyone here.
Israel can defend itself, absolutely against vile Hamas. I will call out it violating international law and starving people to death. We are done here, we're going round in circles.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Well I’m all for leaving the Middle East to it. It’s western supremacism to assume we should play an active role. It’s at least partly our fault the place is such a mess in the first place after our previous efforts at meddling.
Interesting. I mean looking at the various regimes in the middle east you are saying they should all be left alone to do their thing.
It's amazing that so many posters on PB are wholly ambivalent about repressive middle eastern theocratic regimes trying to exert their power over the region.
Even I don't want Hamas to lose @Dura_Ace saw it within himself to bomb their allies every day for a year or so.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
I'm not emotional at all. I just marvel at the illogicality of some of the arguments and think hyperbole is in such instances a useful tool.
People are rushing to defend Iran by saying Israel started it.
Look at the history of geopolitics in the middle east is all I'm saying. And also look at what values you are endorsing when you pick a side.
I am equally enthralled, bemused , amazed by the early Catholic Church and its attempts to define heresy.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
The most incredible thing is that Israel had all of the good will of the world on its side, including unanimously across PB. The fact they have lost so many people is a testament to how badly they have screwed up.
Goodwill so long as they don't do anything to defend themselves or do anything to destroy Hamas.
I've asked for six months from you an alternative to destroy Hamas. So far . . . crickets.
Six months? Bollocks.
I was fully supportive of Israel until a few weeks ago.
Why not ask all the other people that have lost faith in Israel? You act like it's me - but it's mostly everyone here.
Israel can defend itself, absolutely against vile Hamas. I will call out it violating international law and starving people to death. We are done here, we're going round in circles.
Total bollocks, you were opposing Israel's right to defend itself and destroy Hamas from the beginning.
Yeah Israel can defend itself. So long as that defence doesn't involve the IDF actually going after Hamas.
Israel is trying to draw the west in and the timing of the consulate attack proves that .
We should not be aiding and abetting Netenyahus attempts to cling to power .
I'm not sure about that, it's certainly a provocation though and the head of Mossad was not wholeheartedly supportive of the attack in an interview earlier. Best guess Bibi was trying to get Iran to attack via Hezbollah to give him an excuse to go after them in Southern Lebanon but they escalated further than he expected, while doing some fairly big time "escalate to de-escalate" signalling.
Israel is trying to draw the west in and the timing of the consulate attack proves that .
We should not be aiding and abetting Netenyahus attempts to cling to power .
Israel is trying to "draw the west in" because they share the same values as us. Do Iran and Hamas share our values.
I applaud your humanity but you really need to think about what those regimes stand for and have perpetrated in particular against their own citizens.
To be honest I am not sure under Netenyahu Israel does share the values as us. Israel does but I am not sure this current leadership it does. They are going further and further to the right.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
The most incredible thing is that Israel had all of the good will of the world on its side, including unanimously across PB. The fact they have lost so many people is a testament to how badly they have screwed up.
Goodwill so long as they don't do anything to defend themselves or do anything to destroy Hamas.
I've asked for six months from you an alternative to destroy Hamas. So far . . . crickets.
There's something in the idea that those who agree with the position that an ethnic-supremacist fascist regime "has the right to defend itself" - against its victims whom it will never cease attacking and killing as long as it exists and as long as any of its victims still survive in or near their own country - find themselves tied up in knots when the said regime continues to attack.
"Right to defend itself" is just PR in favour of the twin assumptions that 1. the said ethnic-supremacist regime has the "right" to exist, and 2. its victims don't have the right to defend themselves. That's why Israel and its supporters scream it so loud. They love it when the "debate" is reduced to one between themselves and the idiots whose response to "Israel has the right to defend itself" is "Yes but..."
(And I'll tell you what, you who say "Yes but" - Israel's not going to respect you.)
It's quite interesting that the Iranian military signalled the launch of the drones so forcefully in state media (along with what look like ghost reports of ballistic missile launches). It smacks of the kind of strike against US forces in Iraq that followed trump whacking that IRGC general (Suelmeini?) in 2021, where they signalled intent to the US and targeting in advance to ensure that nothing got seriously broken. I think they needed to strike Israel to respond to an attack on their territory (under the Vienna convention) but are doing so in a way that more or less ensures that Israel and its allies wreck most of the drones before they arrive. It's dangerous but looks calibrated on the low side of possible direct responses against Israel. Most leaders would follow the dance, but this is Bibi and the Ghouls we're talking about. Hopefully Biden yanks their chain.
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Well I’m all for leaving the Middle East to it. It’s western supremacism to assume we should play an active role. It’s at least partly our fault the place is such a mess in the first place after our previous efforts at meddling.
Interesting. I mean looking at the various regimes in the middle east you are saying they should all be left alone to do their thing.
It's amazing that so many posters on PB are wholly ambivalent about repressive middle eastern theocratic regimes trying to exert their power over the region.
Even I don't want Hamas to lose @Dura_Ace saw it within himself to bomb their allies every day for a year or so.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
I'm not emotional at all. I just marvel at the illogicality of some of the arguments and think hyperbole is in such instances a useful tool.
People are rushing to defend Iran by saying Israel started it.
Look at the history of geopolitics in the middle east is all I'm saying. And also look at what values you are endorsing when you pick a side.
I am equally enthralled, bemused , amazed by the early Catholic Church and its attempts to define heresy.
It's not Israel as much as general bonkersness.
The illogicality does my head in.
Schoolboys pick sides and context is for kings. You can be supportive of the Jewish state's right to exist and the justness of its campaign against Hamas but also appalled by Netanyahu's behaviour, the recklessness of IDF targeting and the genuine awfulness of the far-right bits of the Israeli cabinet. This isn't hard.
The Israeli state would be entirely justified in shooting every last Hamas leader involved like Meier did after Munich. I even think their push into Gaza is legitimate. But they fucked it up. They're ignoring their own rules of engagement. They're being towed around by the likes of Smotrich and Bin-Gvir who are sizing the curtains up on seafront Gaza property. This is not the action of a state that for years prided itself on being rough but fair with its adversaries. And escalating with your regional rival, by striking a diplomatic outpost without looping in your key ally, is fucking stupid.
In other more stable news, what bad luck this man has to find three judges exactly the same. (Jury selection starts on Monday barring any last minute miracle for Trump, to last probably 1-2 weeks apparently before the trial really gets going properly. It's the lowest level of potential felony of all his charges, so he's done well to get this to be the only trial to likely be before the election).
If convicted, Trump is trying really hard to push the Judge into giving him jail time it seems
Israel is trying to draw the west in and the timing of the consulate attack proves that .
We should not be aiding and abetting Netenyahus attempts to cling to power .
Israel is trying to "draw the west in" because they share the same values as us. Do Iran and Hamas share our values.
I applaud your humanity but you really need to think about what those regimes stand for and have perpetrated in particular against their own citizens.
I know exactly what those regimes stand for . Criticizing Israel for attacking the consulate I think is totally justified . Do you think the west was happy with that action . It was likely to lead to an escalation . So ask yourself why they chose to attack that consulate at that time . Really I don’t understand why the glaringly obvious is being ignored .
Nope, Israel is our ally and our friend and despite our best efforts the only democracy in the region.
Which is part of the reason why so many on the far left hate it so much.
Nope. Our history of getting involved with wars in the Middle East is one of fiasco after fiasco. Each time we just make things worse.
Masterly inactivity is the way forward.
We need to stand up for the global order.
That’s why we support Ukraine, and that’s why we have to support Israel on this occasion. Otherwise dictators and tyrants will feel free to attack the innocent with impunity and the world will be a less safe place.
The 90's called; it wants its naive belief in liberal intervention back.
Liberalism is the greatest thing humanity has ever done.
And interventionism is the worst thing liberal humanity has ever tried, except for all alternatives.
Intervention worked in some cases and was ill conceived in others. Plenty of liberals could see the Iraq intervention for the disaster it was months before it happened. But non-intervention (or rather, toothless pretend intervention) in the Balkans early on led to Srebrenica.
Ukraine is a simple calculation: there’s good guys and bad guys, and the bad guys are out to get us. Gaza is nowhere near as simple. Either from a pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian perspective.
Hamas are bad guys. Iran are bad guys.
The calculus is simple.
Likud are bad guys too. This is more IRA vs UVF.
Likud are unpleasant guys, but not bad guys in the same way.
And Israel is currently led by a government of national unity like Britain in WWII, not by Likud.
This is more like Britain vs Nazi Germany.
It’s not Britain vs Nazi Germany. It’s not even Britain vs Irish republicanism, because the evidence of thuggery by the Israeli military is of a different magnitude.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
Please name one thing in Israel's campaign that is worse than what we did when we were existentially fighting for our survival.
Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. It’s conducting a counterinsurgency campaign. If Iran or Syria were planning a full scale invasion of Israel then you’d have a basis for comparison, but they’re not.
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
We have the luxury of saying that Israel is not existentially fighting for its survival. Israel does not.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
Well I’m all for leaving the Middle East to it. It’s western supremacism to assume we should play an active role. It’s at least partly our fault the place is such a mess in the first place after our previous efforts at meddling.
Interesting. I mean looking at the various regimes in the middle east you are saying they should all be left alone to do their thing.
It's amazing that so many posters on PB are wholly ambivalent about repressive middle eastern theocratic regimes trying to exert their power over the region.
Even I don't want Hamas to lose @Dura_Ace saw it within himself to bomb their allies every day for a year or so.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
I'm not emotional at all. I just marvel at the illogicality of some of the arguments and think hyperbole is in such instances a useful tool.
People are rushing to defend Iran by saying Israel started it.
Look at the history of geopolitics in the middle east is all I'm saying. And also look at what values you are endorsing when you pick a side.
I am equally enthralled, bemused , amazed by the early Catholic Church and its attempts to define heresy.
It's not Israel as much as general bonkersness.
The illogicality does my head in.
Nobody’s defending Iran. Nobody’s picking that side.
EDIT: well maybe apart from @Donkeys who seems to be going full on Corbyn on this topic.
Netanyahu is of a type: he’s in the same bracket as Modi, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Trump. Modi in particular. Don’t let him lead the West into situations they shouldn’t be in, just because they suit him.
You’re emotional about this, I understand that, but it’s making you very binary in your judgments. Someone not signing up to the Barty full spectrum total warfare and uncritical support for everything Bibi wants doctrine does not make them ambivalent about repressive regimes or Hamas apologists.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
The most incredible thing is that Israel had all of the good will of the world on its side, including unanimously across PB. The fact they have lost so many people is a testament to how badly they have screwed up.
Goodwill so long as they don't do anything to defend themselves or do anything to destroy Hamas.
I've asked for six months from you an alternative to destroy Hamas. So far . . . crickets.
There's something in the idea that those who agree with the position that an ethnic-supremacist fascist regime "has the right to defend itself" - against its victims whom it will never cease attacking and killing as long as it exists and as long as any of its victims still survive in or near their own country - find themselves tied up in knots when the said regime continues to attack.
"Right to defend itself" is just PR in favour of the twin assumptions that 1. the said ethnic-supremacist regime has the "right" to exist, and 2. its victims don't have the right to defend themselves. That's why Israel and its supporters scream it so loud. They love it when the "debate" is reduced to one between themselves and the idiots whose response to "Israel has the right to defend itself" is "Yes but..."
(And I'll tell you what, you who say "Yes but" - Israel's not going to respect you.)
Ethnic supremacist fascist regime.
Very funny.
They seem to be giving your guys an almighty kicking, that said.
Israel is trying to draw the west in and the timing of the consulate attack proves that .
We should not be aiding and abetting Netenyahus attempts to cling to power .
We should be defending Israel however, albeit unless Iran actually invades Israel with Syria and Hamas I doubt the West will do much for a few Iranian drones
Israel is trying to draw the west in and the timing of the consulate attack proves that .
We should not be aiding and abetting Netenyahus attempts to cling to power .
We should be defending Israel however, albeit unless Iran actually invades Israel with Syria and Hamas I doubt the West will do much for a few Iranian drones
The west might not but Netenyahu has proven he will do whatever he likes .
Comments
Turned back from near Ankara to fly south across the Med when the warning came, but then turned back towards Israel and in the last minutes has overflown north of Jerusalem and on over Jordan.
Or do you deny Israel the right to defend herself and strike Hamas targets? Should only Hamas targets in Palestine be struck at?
The Nazis too had no intention of surrendering. Eventually they did.
Yes Israel is an ally and yes Iran in particular is an evil regime, but it does nobody any favours to exonerate Likud and their extremist political allies for some quite chilling behaviour in the last few months.
I started out in October fully and vocally supportive of Israel, and sickened by the rentamob immediately heading out on to the streets exercising their inner antisemitism. But this campaign and the dehumanising rhetoric coming from parts of Israeli society has really got me questioning my moral assumptions.
A WWII radar directed AA battery, with proximity fuses would probably get all of them, if in the right place.
Skysweeper would eat them for lunch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M51_Skysweeper
Gepard slaughters them.
The main issue for the West is having enough cheap, low performance AA weapons to shoot them down on a cost effective basis.
The Israelis have Iron Dome which is designed to deal with massed, cheap weapons.
LOL
Is that as damning as the left gets.
What would Nazanin say.
Embassies and consulates should be inviolate
It’s like a nastier, bloodier version of the troubles. Only we weren’t dropping bombs over the bogside. And the behaviour of settlers, for example, is not dissimilar to that of Protestant marchers on the 12th July, only 10x more violent.
You are indulging in western supremacism telling everyone else what they should or shouldn't be thinking.
If Hamas aren't defeated militarily they'd kill every last Israeli "from sea to sea" if they could.
Israel has every right to defend herself and seek the same full, unconditional surrender of the enemy as we did. And we should support her in full in that fight.
(Jury selection starts on Monday barring any last minute miracle for Trump, to last probably 1-2 weeks apparently before the trial really gets going properly. It's the lowest level of potential felony of all his charges, so he's done well to get this to be the only trial to likely be before the election).
But why the heck do I "need to choose a side"?
I'd rather not thanks very much.
You seek to see the Iranian point of view because you are fortunate in being able to do so.
Those under direct Iranian threat, whether Israel or Nazanin, not so much.
"Iran says its attack on Israel ‘concludes’ matter of Israeli attack on its embassy
Iran’s mission to the UN says on X that its drone and missile attack on Israel was conducted “on the strength of Article 51 of the UN Charter pertaining to legitimate defense” and in response to Israel’s April 1 attack on its embassy in Damascus, Syria.
With the attack, “The matter can be deemed concluded,” says Iran.
“However, should the Israeli regime make another mistake, Iran’s response will be considerably more severe. It is a conflict between Iran and the rogue Israeli regime, from which the U.S. MUST STAY AWAY,” it added."
So who blacked out Tel Aviv today?
Which side am I on?
If forced.
The other one. Homes under the Hammer or Tipping Point or some such.
RAF jets involved in defence of Israel taking down some drones
What will happen is that lots more people will die.
What is also true is that despite all the good will they had Israel has thrown it all in the in and decided to behave incredibly badly, including attacking Iran.
Iran is backwards, repressive, clearly wants to destabilise the region, hates Israel and will kill lots of people to gets its way.
So if I had to choose, I would stand with Israel. But out of my own conviction I will stand with neither.
Its on the doorstep of Europe so of course European powers watch very closely, whilst the USA is simply a global power interested in whatever takes its fancy.
And that seems more to the point than 'western supremacism'. It's more global power or regional power ism to focus on the area, and wisdom of active involvement is then a judgement call (the correct answer is to do so as little as humanly possible).
You've have been supporting Lord Halifax back in the day.
When it is necessary, a just war is better than an unjust peace.
It's amazing that so many posters on PB are wholly ambivalent about repressive middle eastern theocratic regimes trying to exert their power over the region.
Even I don't want Hamas to lose @Dura_Ace saw it within himself to bomb their allies every day for a year or so.
Hamas = Iran < Israel. But it's layers of shit.
Choosing good over evil is one thing in war. When good becomes evil picking sides is less straightforward.
That doesn't mean people have to agree with every Israeli reprisal action in Gaza, but that Iran and Syria are not currently planning a full scale invasion - presumably in part because Israel has taken a lot of steps to defend its territory which dissuades many enemies from trying it (though they have their own issues apart from that of course) - I don't think speaks against the general existential threat the nation faces were it to be complacent.
Iran = Hamas < Israel.
I still choose to stand with none of them. It is layers of shit.
They are a proportionate, law-abiding, civil rights abiding democracy that is defending itself. Just as we had to in WWII. And we used tactics that were even worse.
It is quite clear the "centre" has run out of patience with Israel's moronic approach.
Hamas has killed only 1,800 Israelis since 2008.
This is a far more complicated situation then many realise
When we visited Israel and the West Bank we visited the Golan Heights with Israeli tanks in the trees
Sky showing sirens going off and explosions
The US and the UK wholeheartedly supports Israel's right to defend herself.
They'd like the war to end, Hamas to lay down their weapons, release the hostages and have a ceasefire. So would I. But its not happening.
I am aligned with what the US are saying, I suppose you think they're anti-Semitic too.
As the US have said.
Nothing racist about it. It's the truth.
Just as Russia have broken international law.
It's pointless arguing with this kind of nonsense.
The UK and our allies in Iraq led to the death of about 71k enemy combatants and 113k civilians.
We and our allies lost 4,825 people of which 179 were British.
Seems like Israel is doing a good job, proportionately, based on your numbers, don't you think? Continue to brag about what a good job Israel is doing all you like.
Eyes on the Israeli regime now. How will they further provoke, and how soon?
The US has said it has "ironclad" support of Israel. Rightly so.
The US is sending arms to Israel. Rightly so.
"Should the Israeli regime make another mistake, Iran’s response will be considerably more severe."
https://x.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1779279486178984402
God help us all. The world is fucked.
Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t continue to defend themselves against people who hate them though.
You’re talking to a fairly robust liberal interventionist who’s been one of the most supportive of Israel on here and is well aware of the malevolence of the Russia-Iran axis and its destabilising effect on the world. If you’re losing me then you’re going to struggle to bring others along with you.
It is starving children to death and is about to level a city which won't do anything but kill women and children.
You need to take a sit down and think about what you actually are advocating. As it won't achieve the objective of destroying Hamas.
Whose side are you on.
Quit tagging me. I know you think anyone who isn't "kill women and children" is anti-Semitic but I am done arguing this rubbish with you.
The women and children would be saved if Hamas only lays down their arms and releases the hostages.
But if the Latvian government started behaving towards its Russian minority like Israel and its settlers have behaved towards Palestinians, it would create some dilemmas for us.
This is what infuriates me about the Russia-Ukraine war. Russia has cooked up grievances that don’t exist, while exercising genocidal acts on a people it considers a subject race.
I've asked for six months from you an alternative to destroy Hamas. So far . . . crickets.
We should not be aiding and abetting Netenyahus attempts to cling to power .
I was fully supportive of Israel until a few weeks ago.
Why not ask all the other people that have lost faith in Israel? You act like it's me - but it's mostly everyone here.
Israel can defend itself, absolutely against vile Hamas. I will call out it violating international law and starving people to death. We are done here, we're going round in circles.
People are rushing to defend Iran by saying Israel started it.
Look at the history of geopolitics in the middle east is all I'm saying. And also look at what values you are endorsing when you pick a side.
I am equally enthralled, bemused , amazed by the early Catholic Church and its attempts to define heresy.
It's not Israel as much as general bonkersness.
The illogicality does my head in.
Yeah Israel can defend itself. So long as that defence doesn't involve the IDF actually going after Hamas.
I won't discuss this any further with you until you withdraw your accusations. Bye.
I applaud your humanity but you really need to think about what those regimes stand for and have perpetrated in particular against their own citizens.
Sooner the West realises the Iranian regime are cowards, like their Russian sponsors, the better. One day their people will chuck them out.
"Right to defend itself" is just PR in favour of the twin assumptions that 1. the said ethnic-supremacist regime has the "right" to exist, and 2. its victims don't have the right to defend themselves. That's why Israel and its supporters scream it so loud. They love it when the "debate" is reduced to one between themselves and the idiots whose response to "Israel has the right to defend itself" is "Yes but..."
(And I'll tell you what, you who say "Yes but" - Israel's not going to respect you.)
Israel spokesperson - There will be a significant respone to this attack
Ritual animal slaughter?
The Israeli state would be entirely justified in shooting every last Hamas leader involved like Meier did after Munich. I even think their push into Gaza is legitimate. But they fucked it up. They're ignoring their own rules of engagement. They're being towed around by the likes of Smotrich and Bin-Gvir who are sizing the curtains up on seafront Gaza property. This is not the action of a state that for years prided itself on being rough but fair with its adversaries. And escalating with your regional rival, by striking a diplomatic outpost without looping in your key ally, is fucking stupid.
EDIT: well maybe apart from @Donkeys who seems to be going full on Corbyn on this topic.
Netanyahu is of a type: he’s in the same bracket as Modi, Erdogan, Bolsonaro, Trump. Modi in particular. Don’t let him lead the West into situations they shouldn’t be in, just because they suit him.
Very funny.
They seem to be giving your guys an almighty kicking, that said.