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Why the local elections could bring some temporary respite to Sunak – politicalbetting.com

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  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,121

    Somebody once said Rishi Sunak sounds like Tony Blair. Wrong.

    He's like Ed Miliband.

    "Don't forget to scan your ClubCard!"
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991
    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: JK Rowling's comments about new hate crime laws "are not assessed to be criminal", police have said, as they confirmed no further action would be taken

    Wasn't this already known up front? Specifically, that the exposition of gender critical thought was not within the remit of the thing.
    Or the police wont go after her as she has the means and platform to fight back whereas they will go after someone who says the same thing because they dont.....sorry I have no faith in the police not to do so
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,123
    Only 14 days until the Liz Truss book lands.

    I am sure Sunak will be delighted for a load of media focus on The Mortgage Killer just days before the May elections.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    viewcode said:

    With respect to the Great Trans Debate, a PBer (forget who) opined recently, that unlike in UK, in US the trans issue was "subsumed" (think that was the term) into/by the debate over abortion in wake of repeal of Roe v Wade.

    Which is NOT really correct, at least IMHO.

    For example, the recent MAGA-manufactured flap over coincidence of Easter (a notoriously "movable feast") being same day as Transgender Visibility Day.

    Which as far as I can tell, had ZERO to do with the pro-life versus pro-choice controversy.

    Personally think that GOPer politicos and their mouthpieces are banging the anti-trans drum so loudly, is because of its appeal to voters BEYOND the core pro-life constituency.

    That is, to folks who are either pro-choice or ambivalent on abortion, BUT who (for whatever reason) are opposed to and/or repulsed by gender-bending.

    Note that there was similar dynamic a generation ago, when GOP campaigned with vigor against gays and lesbians. For example, with TV campaign ads featuring the alleged debauchery of San Francisco Gay Pride parades.

    So GOP nutbags still making a meal of the homophobia, but beyond this, the MAGA-GOP has switched to anti-trans, as having broader (ahem) appeal.

    'Twas me, oh SSI2. My argument was based on the belief that most Republicans who are anti-trans are also anti-abortion, and vice versa

    Compare and contrast the two maps here: The overlay, whilst not exact (Montana!), is apparent. Although I am sympathetic to your add-on theory: buy one, get one free so to speak.
    Also note Florida, which is actually among the LEAST restrictive re: abortion of Southern states, but at the top of the charts re: restricting trans.

    This being explained in large measure, by desire of Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-Budapest) to burnish his man-bites-dog credentials for evangelicals & other GOP base voters with a woodie (ahem) re: gender-bending.

    NOTE that both charts are charting state legislative action NOT public opinion, while the one may be somewhat reflective of the other, given gerrymandering & other factors, elected legislators tend to be more "extreme" in their opinions, than electorate at large.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @bigjohnowls

    I look forward you posting - and celebrating - the upcoming record performance of Starmer, when he registers more Labour votes in England than Corbyn achieved in 2017.

    Why nothing will change

    What POLICY are you looking forward to as a positive change under SKS
    Why would I want policies? All governments do is fuck things up. I am looking for masterly inaction.
    As opposed to dastardly ineptitude. Which would make a nice change, at least for a spell.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,123

    Evening all,

    Having Sunak out and about all the time meeting real people and taking questions on local radio is working out well I see.

    Nothing that five years of hostility couldn't have beaten out of him.
    The old system- go and fight someone hopeless first, have some setbacks on the way up- had a lot to commend it.

    (See Starmer as well. He got a fair bit wrong on the early years, mostly due to inexperience.)
    Sunak wouldn't have done it imho unless he was offered the right kind of seat from day one.

    He talks a lot about being from ordinary background and getting where he is with hard work. But when in his life has he actually had to deal with a real difficult or major setback?

    Starmer probably didn't have the years left in him to do the 'lose in a tory safe seat first'.
  • StillWatersStillWaters Posts: 8,453
    Someone just mentioned a stat to me which is entirely random but quite thought provoking

    In 1953 the average house cost 150 ounces of gold

    Today the average house would cost you 166 ounces.

    In the last 70 years - measured in gold - prices are up only 10%

    Perhaps the issue isn’t that house prices are too high - or that supply is constrained - but that fundamentally our productivity has been insufficient to allow for wage increases to keep pace with inflation
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889
    edited April 2
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes we have all out elections too. That includes council seats in new wards in areas that were up in bad years locally for the Tories, ie 2023 and 2022 as well as the better year of 2021.

    That combined with fewer seats being up than last year and a reasonable performance by Susan Hall given current polls mean the local elections, although bad, won't be bad enough for Sunak to be removed by Tory MPs and he will survive until the general election as leader and PM

    I see the Conservatives are desperately trying to downplay expectations on the May elections.

    We can do better than that - what's a "reasonable performance" by Susan Hall, the 35% achieved by Shaun Bailey, 30%?, 25%?

    As for the local and PCC contests, we can take a view as well. As for the former, how about losing Dudley to Labour and Dorset to the LDs? What about the eight Conservative held District Councils with all up elections?

    They would be Basildon, Epping Forest, Fareham, Gloucester, Harlow, Havant, Nuneaton & Bedworth and Redditch? Would losing control of half of those represent a bad night? What about losing control of all of them?

    The Conservatives currently have 30 of the 39 PCCs in England and Wales having won the 2021 elections by 14.5 points. What would be a bad night in your view - losing ten, losing twenty?
    A bad night would be Tory candidates losing the majority of PCCs, losing most of the Tory held councils up with all out elections and Susan Hall getting less than a quarter of the vote in London.

    Anything else would be par+ given current dire Tory polling
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 42,651

    rcs1000 said:

    @bigjohnowls

    I look forward you posting - and celebrating - the upcoming record performance of Starmer, when he registers more Labour votes in England than Corbyn achieved in 2017.

    Why nothing will change

    What POLICY are you looking forward to as a positive change under SKS
    Not being these Tories is an absolute killer of a policy.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991
    kinabalu said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @bigjohnowls

    I look forward you posting - and celebrating - the upcoming record performance of Starmer, when he registers more Labour votes in England than Corbyn achieved in 2017.

    Why nothing will change

    What POLICY are you looking forward to as a positive change under SKS
    Not being these Tories is an absolute killer of a policy.
    Only in your mind. A killer policy is this is what is wrong and this is how we will fix it.....a policy of we will continue as is but hey we are not tories should get you spat on
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Has there ever been an MP more out of their depth than Gillian Keegan?

    Perhaps Helen Whately?

    My nominee is I.T. Trebitsch-Lincoln.
    My son told me his story: it's absolutely insane.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Trebitsch-Lincoln
    It would make a good film!
    "The Secret Lives of Trebitsch Lincoln" by Bernard Wasserstein (1988) most definitely worth a read!

    As for the movie, who(m) do you think should play the title character (in way more ways than one)?

    My nominee - Tom Cruise. OR maybe George Clooney?

    OR why not PBs own John Loony? Certainly has proper surname for the part!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,391
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @bigjohnowls

    I look forward you posting - and celebrating - the upcoming record performance of Starmer, when he registers more Labour votes in England than Corbyn achieved in 2017.

    Why nothing will change

    What POLICY are you looking forward to as a positive change under SKS
    Why would I want policies? All governments do is fuck things up. I am looking for masterly inaction.
    Do nothing, do it as slowly as possible, and let the country sort itself out. There is an argument for this: people eventually sort problems out without government help.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,889

    Evening all,

    Having Sunak out and about all the time meeting real people and taking questions on local radio is working out well I see.

    Nothing that five years of hostility couldn't have beaten out of him.
    The old system- go and fight someone hopeless first, have some setbacks on the way up- had a lot to commend it.

    (See Starmer as well. He got a fair bit wrong on the early years, mostly due to inexperience.)
    Sunak wouldn't have done it imho unless he was offered the right kind of seat from day one.

    He talks a lot about being from ordinary background and getting where he is with hard work. But when in his life has he actually had to deal with a real difficult or major setback?

    Starmer probably didn't have the years left in him to do the 'lose in a tory safe seat first'.
    This will be the first general election since 1974 that neither major party leader has fought a parliamentary constituency they lost first before getting a more winnable seat or even been a local councillor.

    While Starmer and Sunak are both intelligent relatively centrist technocrats, rather like Wilson and Heath who also went into Parliament at their first attempt, their lack of political campaigning experience under fire sometimes shows and will show more so on the campaign
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,391

    viewcode said:

    With respect to the Great Trans Debate, a PBer (forget who) opined recently, that unlike in UK, in US the trans issue was "subsumed" (think that was the term) into/by the debate over abortion in wake of repeal of Roe v Wade.

    Which is NOT really correct, at least IMHO.

    For example, the recent MAGA-manufactured flap over coincidence of Easter (a notoriously "movable feast") being same day as Transgender Visibility Day.

    Which as far as I can tell, had ZERO to do with the pro-life versus pro-choice controversy.

    Personally think that GOPer politicos and their mouthpieces are banging the anti-trans drum so loudly, is because of its appeal to voters BEYOND the core pro-life constituency.

    That is, to folks who are either pro-choice or ambivalent on abortion, BUT who (for whatever reason) are opposed to and/or repulsed by gender-bending.

    Note that there was similar dynamic a generation ago, when GOP campaigned with vigor against gays and lesbians. For example, with TV campaign ads featuring the alleged debauchery of San Francisco Gay Pride parades.

    So GOP nutbags still making a meal of the homophobia, but beyond this, the MAGA-GOP has switched to anti-trans, as having broader (ahem) appeal.

    'Twas me, oh SSI2. My argument was based on the belief that most Republicans who are anti-trans are also anti-abortion, and vice versa

    Compare and contrast the two maps here: The overlay, whilst not exact (Montana!), is apparent. Although I am sympathetic to your add-on theory: buy one, get one free so to speak.
    Also note Florida, which is actually among the LEAST restrictive re: abortion of Southern states, but at the top of the charts re: restricting trans.

    This being explained in large measure, by desire of Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-Budapest) to burnish his man-bites-dog credentials for evangelicals & other GOP base voters with a woodie (ahem) re: gender-bending.

    NOTE that both charts are charting state legislative action NOT public opinion, while the one may be somewhat reflective of the other, given gerrymandering & other factors, elected legislators tend to be more "extreme" in their opinions, than electorate at large.
    Florida just bought in a 6-week limit: the map hasn't been updated.

    And yes, you are right it's state legislators not public opinion. Which makes it interesting and tricky: if they represent their public they will win and Trump will win. If the public disagrees, then they will lose and Biden will win. If only I knew which was which... :(
  • On topic - on one day recently I saw a Lab source claim it would be an amazing result if they managed to gain a mayoralty while the Cons claimed it would be an amazing result if they managed to hold one! I know they are managing expectations but both comments were ludicrous.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Has there ever been an MP more out of their depth than Gillian Keegan?

    Perhaps Helen Whately?

    My nominee is I.T. Trebitsch-Lincoln.
    My son told me his story: it's absolutely insane.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Trebitsch-Lincoln
    It would make a good film!
    "The Secret Lives of Trebitsch Lincoln" by Bernard Wasserstein (1988) most definitely worth a read!

    As for the movie, who(m) do you think should play the title character (in way more ways than one)?

    My nominee - Tom Cruise. OR maybe George Clooney?

    OR why not PBs own John Loony? Certainly has proper surname for the part!
    For such a compulsive liar, turncoat and con man it seems ideal for Boris Johnson to launch a film career.

    Though I suspect he would learn his lines as well as Lorenzo St Dubois in The Producers (1967).
  • Somebody once said Rishi Sunak sounds like Tony Blair. Wrong.

    He's like Ed Miliband.

    "Don't forget to scan your ClubCard!"
    Cannot unhear.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Somebody once said Rishi Sunak sounds like Tony Blair. Wrong.

    He's like Ed Miliband.

    "Don't forget to scan your ClubCard!"
    As if Sunak would know what one was, or be able to find a till in Tescos!


  • "Hi, I am utterly useless, erh Will, erh, Rishi"
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,391
    HYUFD said:

    Evening all,

    Having Sunak out and about all the time meeting real people and taking questions on local radio is working out well I see.

    Nothing that five years of hostility couldn't have beaten out of him.
    The old system- go and fight someone hopeless first, have some setbacks on the way up- had a lot to commend it.

    (See Starmer as well. He got a fair bit wrong on the early years, mostly due to inexperience.)
    Sunak wouldn't have done it imho unless he was offered the right kind of seat from day one.

    He talks a lot about being from ordinary background and getting where he is with hard work. But when in his life has he actually had to deal with a real difficult or major setback?

    Starmer probably didn't have the years left in him to do the 'lose in a tory safe seat first'.
    This will be the first general election since 1974 that neither major party leader has fought a parliamentary constituency they lost first before getting a more winnable seat or even been a local councillor.

    While Starmer and Sunak are both intelligent relatively centrist technocrats, rather like Wilson and Heath who also went into Parliament at their first attempt, their lack of political campaigning experience under fire sometimes shows and will show more so on the campaign
    That's...a very good point. Well done you.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @bigjohnowls

    I look forward you posting - and celebrating - the upcoming record performance of Starmer, when he registers more Labour votes in England than Corbyn achieved in 2017.

    Why nothing will change

    What POLICY are you looking forward to as a positive change under SKS
    Why would I want policies? All governments do is fuck things up. I am looking for masterly inaction.
    Do nothing, do it as slowly as possible, and let the country sort itself out. There is an argument for this: people eventually sort problems out without government help.
    That was THE basic politico-governmental principle of Stanley Baldwin during is days as CUP Leader and UK Prime Minister. He believed - and said as much - that most so-called crises will eventually take care of themselves . . . PROVIDED their is sufficient degree of delay and inaction.

    Helped make him quite popular during his time in front-line politics.

    HOWEVER, his policy of masterly inactivity proved LESS effective, and eventually WAY less popular, when applied to military aircraft production.

    Despite (or because?) of his assurance (?) that, "I think it is well also for the man in the street to realise that there is no power on earth that can protect him from being bombed. Whatever people may tell him, the bomber will always get through." (source SB's wiki-bio)
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,691

    Someone just mentioned a stat to me which is entirely random but quite thought provoking

    In 1953 the average house cost 150 ounces of gold

    Today the average house would cost you 166 ounces.

    In the last 70 years - measured in gold - prices are up only 10%

    Perhaps the issue isn’t that house prices are too high - or that supply is constrained - but that fundamentally our productivity has been insufficient to allow for wage increases to keep pace with inflation

    And for lower earners whose productivity growth has not been matched with equivalent wage rises?

    "in the report “Have productivity and pay decoupled in the UK?” published by the London School of Economics’ Programme on Innovation and Diffusion (POID) shows that between 1981 and 2019, prior to the Covid-19 hit, productivity rose by 87 per cent but median employee wages only rose by 62 per cent: a 25 percentage point “overall decoupling” between productivity growth and median wage growth."
    https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/k-November-21/Wages-of-typical-UK-employee-have-become-decoupled-from-productivity
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Someone just mentioned a stat to me which is entirely random but quite thought provoking

    In 1953 the average house cost 150 ounces of gold

    Today the average house would cost you 166 ounces.

    In the last 70 years - measured in gold - prices are up only 10%

    Perhaps the issue isn’t that house prices are too high - or that supply is constrained - but that fundamentally our productivity has been insufficient to allow for wage increases to keep pace with inflation

    I just checked out, and yes the Gold price in 1953 was £12.67 per Oz and the average UK house price £1800.

    Just shows how printing money raises nominal asset values perhaps.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498
    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Have we done this?

    Humza Yousaf has said it is "increasingly difficult" to shield his children from racism after he was targeted with Islamophobic graffiti near his Dundee home.

    Racist slurs relating to the Scottish first minister's Pakistani heritage were sprayed on the walls and fences of homes in a street in Broughty Ferry, on Monday.

    It is near to where the first minister lives with his wife and two children.

    The graffiti, which has since been removed, happened on the day the Scottish government's controversial new hate crime laws came into force.


    https://news.sky.com/story/first-minister-humza-yousaf-condemns-racist-graffiti-aimed-at-him-near-dundee-home-13106494

    The clown is always on about racism , he practices it himself , re the nursery where he had to drop the charges as it was just rubbish , and constantly saying there are too many white people in Scotland, and on and on . The man is a moron and invites trouble at every cut and turn. A real roaster "family man " as well allegedly. He really needs to be ousted ASAP.
    Not that that at all justifies the brain dead morons who did the racist graffiti, though state of the country and the education system etc is all under his control.
    Wouldn’t the law, prior to this hate crime legislation, dealt with that graffiti anyway ? It’s not,like it’s a new law brought in to deal with it. Or am I mistaken ?
    absolutely, it is purely virtue signalling.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,452
    HYUFD said:

    Evening all,

    Having Sunak out and about all the time meeting real people and taking questions on local radio is working out well I see.

    Nothing that five years of hostility couldn't have beaten out of him.
    The old system- go and fight someone hopeless first, have some setbacks on the way up- had a lot to commend it.

    (See Starmer as well. He got a fair bit wrong on the early years, mostly due to inexperience.)
    Sunak wouldn't have done it imho unless he was offered the right kind of seat from day one.

    He talks a lot about being from ordinary background and getting where he is with hard work. But when in his life has he actually had to deal with a real difficult or major setback?

    Starmer probably didn't have the years left in him to do the 'lose in a tory safe seat first'.
    This will be the first general election since 1974 that neither major party leader has fought a parliamentary constituency they lost first before getting a more winnable seat or even been a local councillor.

    While Starmer and Sunak are both intelligent relatively centrist technocrats, rather like Wilson and Heath who also went into Parliament at their first attempt, their lack of political campaigning experience under fire sometimes shows and will show more so on the campaign
    Even that comparison doesn't entirely work- Heath and Wilson both had the best part of twenty years in parliament under their belts before becoming PM. There was time to knock at least some of the rough edges of them (though I hate to think what Ted Heath with his rough edges fully intact must have been like..)

    Starmer has two.big advantages over Sunak, though. The key one is that his time as DPP gave him some experience as a public figure, which Sunak didn't get. Also, Starmer has improved since 2020. In part because it's easier to tweak the show if you're not running the country at the same time, but also he gives every impression of being a fast learner.

    Sunak looks set to leave office making the same schoolboy errors he made on taking office. He really needed a few years doing a monthly phone-in on the "It's your Grimtown" show on Grim FM.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,498

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Have we done this?

    Humza Yousaf has said it is "increasingly difficult" to shield his children from racism after he was targeted with Islamophobic graffiti near his Dundee home.

    Racist slurs relating to the Scottish first minister's Pakistani heritage were sprayed on the walls and fences of homes in a street in Broughty Ferry, on Monday.

    It is near to where the first minister lives with his wife and two children.

    The graffiti, which has since been removed, happened on the day the Scottish government's controversial new hate crime laws came into force.


    https://news.sky.com/story/first-minister-humza-yousaf-condemns-racist-graffiti-aimed-at-him-near-dundee-home-13106494

    The clown is always on about racism , he practices it himself , re the nursery where he had to drop the charges as it was just rubbish , and constantly saying there are too many white people in Scotland, and on and on . The man is a moron and invites trouble at every cut and turn. A real roaster "family man " as well allegedly. He really needs to be ousted ASAP.
    Not that that at all justifies the brain dead morons who did the racist graffiti, though state of the country and the education system etc is all under his control.
    Wouldn’t the law, prior to this hate crime legislation, dealt with that graffiti anyway ? It’s not,like it’s a new law brought in to deal with it. Or am I mistaken ?
    You're not mistaken. And malky is right - and how many times can you say that?
    Tut Tut , I am rarely wrong
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683

    Heathener said:

    O/t football is heading for a big problem.

    This isn’t about something woke (as if I’d mind that). It’s a serious issue.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713327

    Raphael Varane: Man Utd and France defender says heading has 'damaged his body’

    Good evening

    There is a lot of evidence the damage heading does to a footballer especially in later life

    I was playing a football match in Edinburgh in 1962 when I was elbowed in the back of the neck

    Apparently I played for another 10 minutes before collapsing on the field and an ambulance was called. In the ambulance I said to my now wife you are wearing an engagement ring and who are you engaged to, before collapsing back into unconsciousness

    I woke about 3.00am in the trauma ward of Edinburgh Royal Infirmary being violently sick and had no idea what had happened

    It took over 6 months to recall going out to the match and playing, and even today I cannot recall everything about that evening

    I didn't play football again and this is one isolated incident

    The time may come when heading is outlawed but the game would not be recognisable
    For a lot of the older ex footballers there would have been games with very heavy wet footballs. There was also little or no care for concussion.
    Heading brings risks from the ball AND from accidental head to head contact. Can it be limited? (Banned in training? A fixed max number in training?). Ultimately if it’s totally banned it will hugely change the nature of the game. If it’s needs to happen, so be it.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559

    Someone just mentioned a stat to me which is entirely random but quite thought provoking

    In 1953 the average house cost 150 ounces of gold

    Today the average house would cost you 166 ounces.

    In the last 70 years - measured in gold - prices are up only 10%

    Perhaps the issue isn’t that house prices are too high - or that supply is constrained - but that fundamentally our productivity has been insufficient to allow for wage increases to keep pace with inflation

    And for lower earners whose productivity growth has not been matched with equivalent wage rises?

    "in the report “Have productivity and pay decoupled in the UK?” published by the London School of Economics’ Programme on Innovation and Diffusion (POID) shows that between 1981 and 2019, prior to the Covid-19 hit, productivity rose by 87 per cent but median employee wages only rose by 62 per cent: a 25 percentage point “overall decoupling” between productivity growth and median wage growth."
    https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/k-November-21/Wages-of-typical-UK-employee-have-become-decoupled-from-productivity
    Definitely a two-edged sword. Or rather a two-sided coin.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Someone just mentioned a stat to me which is entirely random but quite thought provoking

    In 1953 the average house cost 150 ounces of gold

    Today the average house would cost you 166 ounces.

    In the last 70 years - measured in gold - prices are up only 10%

    Perhaps the issue isn’t that house prices are too high - or that supply is constrained - but that fundamentally our productivity has been insufficient to allow for wage increases to keep pace with inflation

    A few other things to take into account:

    1) In 1953 a much larger chunk of the population were renting. It would be interesting to compare rents on the same basis;

    2) In 1953 houses were on average rather smaller;

    3) There were also still shortages of housing due to WWII damage, and also due to the application of various laws that condemned older housing stock. Progress was being made (300,000 houses in 1952) but it was slower than needed. So it's not that surprising that houses were comparatively expensive.
  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 28,418

    Someone just mentioned a stat to me which is entirely random but quite thought provoking

    In 1953 the average house cost 150 ounces of gold

    Today the average house would cost you 166 ounces.

    In the last 70 years - measured in gold - prices are up only 10%

    Perhaps the issue isn’t that house prices are too high - or that supply is constrained - but that fundamentally our productivity has been insufficient to allow for wage increases to keep pace with inflation

    No. Look at the gold price history. Our problem is that "assets" are shooting up in price and wages aren't. The super-rich get richer; the middle classes are getting slowly poorer; those at the bottom are struggling. We need somehow to remove housing from the asset class.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/gold

  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes we have all out elections too. That includes council seats in new wards in areas that were up in bad years locally for the Tories, ie 2023 and 2022 as well as the better year of 2021.

    That combined with fewer seats being up than last year and a reasonable performance by Susan Hall given current polls mean the local elections, although bad, won't be bad enough for Sunak to be removed by Tory MPs and he will survive until the general election as leader and PM

    I see the Conservatives are desperately trying to downplay expectations on the May elections.

    We can do better than that - what's a "reasonable performance" by Susan Hall, the 35% achieved by Shaun Bailey, 30%?, 25%?

    As for the local and PCC contests, we can take a view as well. As for the former, how about losing Dudley to Labour and Dorset to the LDs? What about the eight Conservative held District Councils with all up elections?

    They would be Basildon, Epping Forest, Fareham, Gloucester, Harlow, Havant, Nuneaton & Bedworth and Redditch? Would losing control of half of those represent a bad night? What about losing control of all of them?

    The Conservatives currently have 30 of the 39 PCCs in England and Wales having won the 2021 elections by 14.5 points. What would be a bad night in your view - losing ten, losing twenty?
    A bad night would be Tory candidates losing the majority of PCCs, losing most of the Tory held councils up with all out elections and Susan Hall getting less than a quarter of the vote in London.

    Anything else would be par+ given current dire Tory polling
    Well, that's reasonable and we'll see how that goes.

    I think Hall will probably get to 30% but not much further.

    As for the PCCs and Councils, more research is required. Basildon was decent for the Conservatives last year especially in the light of the Council's financial woes but their majority is only nine currently. Fareham looks a safe Conservative council - they hold 24 of the 31 seats so would need to lose nine to lose their majority.

    With a majority of just five, Gloucester should go NOC and I suspect Labour will capture Harlow. Havant should be safe enough for the Conservatives as should Nuneaton & Bedworth but I think Labour will take Redditch.

    Baseline for the Conservatives should be holding four (including Epping Forest) with Labour gaining two and two going NOC. Worse than that and it becomes a bad night for the Conservatives.
  • London Mayoral Voting Intention

    Sadiq Khan (LAB): 44% (+1)
    Susan Hall (CON): 26% (-5)
    Zoe Garbett (GRN): 7% (-2)
    Rob Blackie (LDM): 7% (-9)
    Howard Cox (REF): 5% (+4)
    Brian Rose (LRP): 3% (NEW)
    Natalie Campbell (IND): 3% (NEW)

    Via
    @Survation
    , On 21-26 March,
    Changes w/ July 2023

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1775237656202367473

    Perhaps if the Tories chose a more useless candidate, they could make Rishi's current polling look decent.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683

    kjh said:

    Sitting in hospital having just had my trigger finger op (very minor op). The notes they had for me were for someone else with the same name. Still got that sorted and they didn't amputate my leg by accident so all is well. Waiting to be discharged now.

    That is gross incompetence of a high order, you should register a complaint with the hospital administration AND with higher authority (perhaps via you MP).

    Wondering how many other patients have been affected by suchlike?

    For example . . .

    Stir Crazy (1980) - Cover Your Jewels Scene
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvnWjkHgWEw
    As OKC will know very well nothing happens in the NHS without lots of checking (e.g. date of birth). Odds of same name plus DoB are minuscule, so chances of missing legs not high.
    Perhaps I misread original comment, but wasn't it the PATIENT who caught the error and NOT hospital staff?

    And "not high" chance of waking up with a missing leg . . . or whatever, ain't exactly reassuring.
    Before any procedure the correct route is to check name and DOB. The mix up would be caught.
    https://www.hssib.org.uk/patient-safety-investigations/wrong-site-surgery-wrong-patient/

    226 incidents of wrong site surgery in 2019-20. Some of these were wrong patient.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/03/wrong-woman-given-invasive-procedure-among-nhs-mixups
    Out of how many surgeries? Even one is too many, and no system is perfect. But as a patient never get annoyed at seemingly endless checks on who you are.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,615

    Heathener said:

    O/t football is heading for a big problem.

    This isn’t about something woke (as if I’d mind that). It’s a serious issue.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/68713327

    Raphael Varane: Man Utd and France defender says heading has 'damaged his body’

    Good evening

    There is a lot of evidence the damage heading does to a footballer especially in later life

    I was playing a football match in Edinburgh in 1962 when I was elbowed in the back of the neck

    Apparently I played for another 10 minutes before collapsing on the field and an ambulance was called. In the ambulance I said to my now wife you are wearing an engagement ring and who are you engaged to, before collapsing back into unconsciousness

    I woke about 3.00am in the trauma ward of Edinburgh Royal Infirmary being violently sick and had no idea what had happened

    It took over 6 months to recall going out to the match and playing, and even today I cannot recall everything about that evening

    I didn't play football again and this is one isolated incident

    The time may come when heading is outlawed but the game would not be recognisable
    For a lot of the older ex footballers there would have been games with very heavy wet footballs. There was also little or no care for concussion.
    Heading brings risks from the ball AND from accidental head to head contact. Can it be limited? (Banned in training? A fixed max number in training?). Ultimately if it’s totally banned it will hugely change the nature of the game. If it’s needs to happen, so be it.
    And the laces hurt !!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    With respect to the Great Trans Debate, a PBer (forget who) opined recently, that unlike in UK, in US the trans issue was "subsumed" (think that was the term) into/by the debate over abortion in wake of repeal of Roe v Wade.

    Which is NOT really correct, at least IMHO.

    For example, the recent MAGA-manufactured flap over coincidence of Easter (a notoriously "movable feast") being same day as Transgender Visibility Day.

    Which as far as I can tell, had ZERO to do with the pro-life versus pro-choice controversy.

    Personally think that GOPer politicos and their mouthpieces are banging the anti-trans drum so loudly, is because of its appeal to voters BEYOND the core pro-life constituency.

    That is, to folks who are either pro-choice or ambivalent on abortion, BUT who (for whatever reason) are opposed to and/or repulsed by gender-bending.

    Note that there was similar dynamic a generation ago, when GOP campaigned with vigor against gays and lesbians. For example, with TV campaign ads featuring the alleged debauchery of San Francisco Gay Pride parades.

    So GOP nutbags still making a meal of the homophobia, but beyond this, the MAGA-GOP has switched to anti-trans, as having broader (ahem) appeal.

    'Twas me, oh SSI2. My argument was based on the belief that most Republicans who are anti-trans are also anti-abortion, and vice versa

    Compare and contrast the two maps here: The overlay, whilst not exact (Montana!), is apparent. Although I am sympathetic to your add-on theory: buy one, get one free so to speak.
    Also note Florida, which is actually among the LEAST restrictive re: abortion of Southern states, but at the top of the charts re: restricting trans.

    This being explained in large measure, by desire of Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-Budapest) to burnish his man-bites-dog credentials for evangelicals & other GOP base voters with a woodie (ahem) re: gender-bending.

    NOTE that both charts are charting state legislative action NOT public opinion, while the one may be somewhat reflective of the other, given gerrymandering & other factors, elected legislators tend to be more "extreme" in their opinions, than electorate at large.
    Florida just bought in a 6-week limit: the map hasn't been updated.

    And yes, you are right it's state legislators not public opinion. Which makes it interesting and tricky: if they represent their public they will win and Trump will win. If the public disagrees, then they will lose and Biden will win. If only I knew which was which... :(
    ReL updating Florida anti-abortion map, probably best to wait UNTIL Florida voters get a DIRECT say this Fall.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 13,989

    London Mayoral Voting Intention

    Sadiq Khan (LAB): 44% (+1)
    Susan Hall (CON): 26% (-5)
    Zoe Garbett (GRN): 7% (-2)
    Rob Blackie (LDM): 7% (-9)
    Howard Cox (REF): 5% (+4)
    Brian Rose (LRP): 3% (NEW)
    Natalie Campbell (IND): 3% (NEW)

    Via
    @Survation
    , On 21-26 March,
    Changes w/ July 2023

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1775237656202367473

    Perhaps if the Tories chose a more useless candidate, they could make Rishi's current polling look decent.

    Natalie Campbell applied to be the Conservative candidate but was unsuccessful and obviously any membership of the party would have ceased. Her manifesto reads quite well and certainly better than anything the Conservative candidate has offered.

    Rose stood last time and shrewd punters made a lot of money laying his candidature as the bookies got his odds a bit wrong.

    None of this makes much difference - Khan is on course for a clear and convincing win.
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 17,452

    London Mayoral Voting Intention

    Sadiq Khan (LAB): 44% (+1)
    Susan Hall (CON): 26% (-5)
    Zoe Garbett (GRN): 7% (-2)
    Rob Blackie (LDM): 7% (-9)
    Howard Cox (REF): 5% (+4)
    Brian Rose (LRP): 3% (NEW)
    Natalie Campbell (IND): 3% (NEW)

    Via
    @Survation
    , On 21-26 March,
    Changes w/ July 2023

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1775237656202367473

    Perhaps if the Tories chose a more useless candidate, they could make Rishi's current polling look decent.

    Compared with the 2021 first round, that's Lab +4, Con -9. In part, that's because there wasn't a significant right-of-the-Conservatives candidate in 2021. The nearest approximation was the not at all fantastic Mr Fox on 2%.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,123
    Darren Jones MP
    @darrenpjones
    ·
    37m
    Covid stopped me asking Paula Vennells in person about what she knew.

    In a written response she said:

    “I raised this question repeatedly…and was given the same answer: it was not possible”

    We now know she knew.

    It’s the darkest misleading of Parliament I’ve ever seen.

    https://twitter.com/darrenpjones/status/1775231984870035531
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    London Mayoral Voting Intention

    Sadiq Khan (LAB): 44% (+1)
    Susan Hall (CON): 26% (-5)
    Zoe Garbett (GRN): 7% (-2)
    Rob Blackie (LDM): 7% (-9)
    Howard Cox (REF): 5% (+4)
    Brian Rose (LRP): 3% (NEW)
    Natalie Campbell (IND): 3% (NEW)

    Via
    @Survation
    , On 21-26 March,
    Changes w/ July 2023

    https://x.com/electpoliticsuk/status/1775237656202367473

    Perhaps if the Tories chose a more useless candidate, they could make Rishi's current polling look decent.

    Not prompting for Binface? A clear fix to suppress the rubbish receptacle vote. Or on second thoughts, maybe not. 🤔
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,909
    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @bigjohnowls

    I look forward you posting - and celebrating - the upcoming record performance of Starmer, when he registers more Labour votes in England than Corbyn achieved in 2017.

    Why nothing will change

    What POLICY are you looking forward to as a positive change under SKS
    Why would I want policies? All governments do is fuck things up. I am looking for masterly inaction.
    Do nothing, do it as slowly as possible, and let the country sort itself out. There is an argument for this: people eventually sort problems out without government help.
    How are you and I going to sort out the problems in the criminal justice system, where it takes years for cases to be brought to trial?

    How are you and I going to close the gap between government revenue and expenditure?

    How are you and I going to take the necessary action to equip and modernise the armed forces?

    It's a facile argument that doesn't treat seriously many of the real problems the country has. Perhaps it's true that central government has too often meddled in the minutiae - where the DfT specifies in excruciating detail the trains to be bought for particular franchises, for example - and not spent enough time on the bigger picture stuff - like working out how the country will pay its way in two decades time.

    But if a government were to do nothing at this time then that would be to watch the country slide towards ruin.
  • @BartholomewRoberts can you please comment on the Israel situation. I am not trying to goad you but I would like to know what you think as always have a lot to say from a perspective different to mine.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,123
    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683

    @BartholomewRoberts can you please comment on the Israel situation. I am not trying to goad you but I would like to know what you think as always have a lot to say from a perspective different to mine.

    I’m not him, but it’s a bit shit right now. It seem to me that the parallels with WW2 are strong. The Nazis tried to destroy the U.K. with bombing, five years later their country was devastated. The German population were prisoners of the Nazis just as ordinary Palestinians are of Hamas. Arguably the price Germans paid for the ending of Nazism was justified. Is the price the Palestinians are paying for the ending of Hamas (if that’s even possible?)
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723

    Israel has lost even more credibility today. It's time for the US to say some kind words to get them to stop.

    I'm afraid the reality is that all the talk and meetings etc is all totally meaningless.

    We all know the US will continue to support Israel militarily so Israel will continue to do exactly what it wants - irrespective of what anyone says.

    So what can be done?

    Very little but one small thing strikes me. Organisations like the IOC, FIFA, UEFA are not controlled by the US or its close allies. And they generally operate on a one country one vote basis.

    So how about getting organisations like the IOC, FIFA, UEFA to suspend or expel Israel? Israel might not care that much but they won't like being ostracised.

    I suspect it would be more effective than anything anyone has done so far.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,991

    kjh said:

    Sitting in hospital having just had my trigger finger op (very minor op). The notes they had for me were for someone else with the same name. Still got that sorted and they didn't amputate my leg by accident so all is well. Waiting to be discharged now.

    That is gross incompetence of a high order, you should register a complaint with the hospital administration AND with higher authority (perhaps via you MP).

    Wondering how many other patients have been affected by suchlike?

    For example . . .

    Stir Crazy (1980) - Cover Your Jewels Scene
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvnWjkHgWEw
    As OKC will know very well nothing happens in the NHS without lots of checking (e.g. date of birth). Odds of same name plus DoB are minuscule, so chances of missing legs not high.
    Perhaps I misread original comment, but wasn't it the PATIENT who caught the error and NOT hospital staff?

    And "not high" chance of waking up with a missing leg . . . or whatever, ain't exactly reassuring.
    Before any procedure the correct route is to check name and DOB. The mix up would be caught.
    https://www.hssib.org.uk/patient-safety-investigations/wrong-site-surgery-wrong-patient/

    226 incidents of wrong site surgery in 2019-20. Some of these were wrong patient.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/03/wrong-woman-given-invasive-procedure-among-nhs-mixups
    Out of how many surgeries? Even one is too many, and no system is perfect. But as a patient never get annoyed at seemingly endless checks on who you are.
    I remember my mother being told she needed a hysterectomy. Full on planning on the next six-months-to-a-year of 'wtf is going to happen' while laid up in a hospital bed for over a week in tears.

    Then a doctor wandering past her bed, picking up her chart, and saying "Oh, this isn't right. That's not for you - you're fine - discharged." and walked back out of the ward.

    Massive relief, if also massive annoyance from my mother. But also the nagging feeling of "Well, just who's chart was that for? Did they ever find out?".

    It's lucky for them we were poor or they might have got in trouble.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,123

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    Yep. The anger is going to be off the scale if the establishment close ranks on this one.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Their report on the Israeli killing of the aid workers is worth a watch too.

    It shows that the vehicles were clearly marked and spread over a long distance of the agreed route. They were targeted individually over a period of time. Indeed the survivors of the first vehicle had time to get to the second one before that too was bombed.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 17,559
    Working title for "Trebitsch Lincoln - The Movie" screenplay: "Dalai Lama 13.5".

    Better (for title) than focusing in on his international con-artistry OR his treason to the British Crown.

    Both being dime-a-dozen. But Dalai Lamas - even fake ones - are MUCH rarer.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,991

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    I 110% didn't work for them for almost 10 years. And I am also 110% not surprised by even a single aspect of this.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,723
    edited April 2

    viewcode said:

    With respect to the Great Trans Debate, a PBer (forget who) opined recently, that unlike in UK, in US the trans issue was "subsumed" (think that was the term) into/by the debate over abortion in wake of repeal of Roe v Wade.

    Which is NOT really correct, at least IMHO.

    For example, the recent MAGA-manufactured flap over coincidence of Easter (a notoriously "movable feast") being same day as Transgender Visibility Day.

    Which as far as I can tell, had ZERO to do with the pro-life versus pro-choice controversy.

    Personally think that GOPer politicos and their mouthpieces are banging the anti-trans drum so loudly, is because of its appeal to voters BEYOND the core pro-life constituency.

    That is, to folks who are either pro-choice or ambivalent on abortion, BUT who (for whatever reason) are opposed to and/or repulsed by gender-bending.

    Note that there was similar dynamic a generation ago, when GOP campaigned with vigor against gays and lesbians. For example, with TV campaign ads featuring the alleged debauchery of San Francisco Gay Pride parades.

    So GOP nutbags still making a meal of the homophobia, but beyond this, the MAGA-GOP has switched to anti-trans, as having broader (ahem) appeal.

    'Twas me, oh SSI2. My argument was based on the belief that most Republicans who are anti-trans are also anti-abortion, and vice versa

    Compare and contrast the two maps here: The overlay, whilst not exact (Montana!), is apparent. Although I am sympathetic to your add-on theory: buy one, get one free so to speak.
    Also note Florida, which is actually among the LEAST restrictive re: abortion of Southern states, but at the top of the charts re: restricting trans.

    This being explained in large measure, by desire of Gov. Ron DeSantis (R-Budapest) to burnish his man-bites-dog credentials for evangelicals & other GOP base voters with a woodie (ahem) re: gender-bending.

    NOTE that both charts are charting state legislative action NOT public opinion, while the one may be somewhat reflective of the other, given gerrymandering & other factors, elected legislators tend to be more "extreme" in their opinions, than electorate at large.
    6 week ban comes into force in Florida within the next month following Florida Supreme Court ruling a few days ago.

    But there will be a ballot in November on Constitutional Amendment allowing all abortions in Florida.

    Problem is it needs 60% to pass.

    Similar ballots in Ohio, Kansas and Michigan all passed - but all got between 50% and 60%.

    So I suspect they won't get the 60% threshold.

    But it could give Biden a chance in Florida - which he only lost 51-48 in 2020.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    @BartholomewRoberts can you please comment on the Israel situation. I am not trying to goad you but I would like to know what you think as always have a lot to say from a perspective different to mine.

    I’m not him, but it’s a bit shit right now. It seem to me that the parallels with WW2 are strong. The Nazis tried to destroy the U.K. with bombing, five years later their country was devastated. The German population were prisoners of the Nazis just as ordinary Palestinians are of Hamas. Arguably the price Germans paid for the ending of Nazism was justified. Is the price the Palestinians are paying for the ending of Hamas (if that’s even possible?)
    Weren't the rules on war crimes drawn up after WW2 to specifically ban mass bombing of civilian areas?
  • eekeek Posts: 28,590

    Darren Jones MP
    @darrenpjones
    ·
    37m
    Covid stopped me asking Paula Vennells in person about what she knew.

    In a written response she said:

    “I raised this question repeatedly…and was given the same answer: it was not possible”

    We now know she knew.

    It’s the darkest misleading of Parliament I’ve ever seen.

    https://twitter.com/darrenpjones/status/1775231984870035531

    Sadly contempt of Parliament does not seem to have carried much (or any) punishment since 1880 and the last fine was in 1666...
  • The government hates Channel 4 because they hold them to account.
  • ohnotnowohnotnow Posts: 3,991

    Someone just mentioned a stat to me which is entirely random but quite thought provoking

    In 1953 the average house cost 150 ounces of gold

    Today the average house would cost you 166 ounces.

    In the last 70 years - measured in gold - prices are up only 10%

    Perhaps the issue isn’t that house prices are too high - or that supply is constrained - but that fundamentally our productivity has been insufficient to allow for wage increases to keep pace with inflation

    And for lower earners whose productivity growth has not been matched with equivalent wage rises?

    "in the report “Have productivity and pay decoupled in the UK?” published by the London School of Economics’ Programme on Innovation and Diffusion (POID) shows that between 1981 and 2019, prior to the Covid-19 hit, productivity rose by 87 per cent but median employee wages only rose by 62 per cent: a 25 percentage point “overall decoupling” between productivity growth and median wage growth."
    https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2021/k-November-21/Wages-of-typical-UK-employee-have-become-decoupled-from-productivity
    I remember seeing a chart that tracked productivity vs. wages since about 1900. The disparity was quite startling. Right across the public and private sectors - work twice as much? Produce three times as much? Ehhhh - 5% pay rise do you?
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Foxy said:

    @BartholomewRoberts can you please comment on the Israel situation. I am not trying to goad you but I would like to know what you think as always have a lot to say from a perspective different to mine.

    I’m not him, but it’s a bit shit right now. It seem to me that the parallels with WW2 are strong. The Nazis tried to destroy the U.K. with bombing, five years later their country was devastated. The German population were prisoners of the Nazis just as ordinary Palestinians are of Hamas. Arguably the price Germans paid for the ending of Nazism was justified. Is the price the Palestinians are paying for the ending of Hamas (if that’s even possible?)
    Weren't the rules on war crimes drawn up after WW2 to specifically ban mass bombing of civilian areas?
    Is that what Israel are doing? I thought more artilliary, and tank based destruction.
    I think the concept of war crimes is hard, though. Hamas clearly committed war crimes, or simply just terrorist actions. Israel seems to be getting close to war crimes, but may argue that they are trying not too.

    Something needs to change.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    When does the Inquiry reconvene? Nothing ‘legal’ will happen until it’s reported, surely.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683

    The government hates Channel 4 because they hold them to account.

    I can understand why a government would feel under attack from C4. The channel that employs ‘F#ck the Tories’ Jon Snow, for instance. I think there is no doubt that the media in general tends to be more liberal, more middle class than the current conservative brand. The party might wonder why that is.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    When does the Inquiry reconvene? Nothing ‘legal’ will happen until it’s reported, surely.
    Likely to be an issue for Starmer rather than Sunak, I think.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    Yep. The anger is going to be off the scale if the establishment close ranks on this one.
    Nope people will shrug their shoulders as usual and be peeved then say nothing we can do
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,709

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    When does the Inquiry reconvene? Nothing ‘legal’ will happen until it’s reported, surely.
    Likely to be an issue for Starmer rather than Sunak, I think.
    Well, as a former DPP he ought to be well placed to deal with it!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    The government hates Channel 4 because they hold them to account.

    I can understand why a government would feel under attack from C4. The channel that employs ‘F#ck the Tories’ Jon Snow, for instance. I think there is no doubt that the media in general tends to be more liberal, more middle class than the current conservative brand. The party might wonder why that is.
    Jon Snow retired from Channel 4 in Dec 2021.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,016
    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    The current DPP really needs to have a couple of very senior people appearing from custody in relation to this now. Its starting to look like they gave it to Police Scotland to investigate.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991
    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    The current DPP really needs to have a couple of very senior people appearing from custody in relation to this now. Its starting to look like they gave it to Police Scotland to investigate.
    Prediction no one senior will get prosecuted, they may find a junior or two to scapegoat
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Foxy said:

    The government hates Channel 4 because they hold them to account.

    I can understand why a government would feel under attack from C4. The channel that employs ‘F#ck the Tories’ Jon Snow, for instance. I think there is no doubt that the media in general tends to be more liberal, more middle class than the current conservative brand. The party might wonder why that is.
    Jon Snow retired from Channel 4 in Dec 2021.
    Because he didn’t agree with their politics? Or just old age?
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    The current DPP really needs to have a couple of very senior people appearing from custody in relation to this now. Its starting to look like they gave it to Police Scotland to investigate.
    Prediction no one senior will get prosecuted, they may find a junior or two to scapegoat
    Further prediction within the next 5 years vennels will be ennobled because its sad she had to give up her cbe
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    Foxy said:

    The government hates Channel 4 because they hold them to account.

    I can understand why a government would feel under attack from C4. The channel that employs ‘F#ck the Tories’ Jon Snow, for instance. I think there is no doubt that the media in general tends to be more liberal, more middle class than the current conservative brand. The party might wonder why that is.
    Jon Snow retired from Channel 4 in Dec 2021.
    Has he been replaced by Bran Stark?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 42,149
    Foxy said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Their report on the Israeli killing of the aid workers is worth a watch too.

    It shows that the vehicles were clearly marked and spread over a long distance of the agreed route. They were targeted individually over a period of time. Indeed the survivors of the first vehicle had time to get to the second one before that too was bombed.

    To accidentally bomb an aid column once, Mr. Worthing, may be regarded as a misfortune; to accidentally bomb it twice looks like carelessness. Three times looks like intent.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    I will bet £50 that the back door system was used to deliberately frame post masters.

    Any takers?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730
    edited April 2
    Fecking Vanilla really is having a funny five minutes today.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    I will bet £50 that the back door system was used to deliberately frame post masters.

    Any takers?
    Should be no takers as with no auditing system in place to say who changed what then no way of proving it definitively so a bet that cant be won
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    And people got angry then forgot about it after a day or two because royals/khardassians/big brother was in the news. Getting angry a bit did nothing and if they won't get angry when people die and the police lie through their teeth they aren't going to rise up for some posters getting prosecuted....sadly
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Simon Harwood was prosecuted but acquitted, then sacked from the police. So perhaps that why there was less outrage?
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,059

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    If Vennells and her cohorts aren’t jailed, why the fuck should the rest of us not break the law whenever it suits us?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119
    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    The current DPP really needs to have a couple of very senior people appearing from custody in relation to this now. Its starting to look like they gave it to Police Scotland to investigate.
    Prediction no one senior will get prosecuted, they may find a junior or two to scapegoat
    Remember - the *judge* in the Kids Company case said that it would be unfair to hold the legally liable trustees legally liable for their voluntarily assumed legal liabilities.

    The CPS said, when Blair & Co. got caught selling peerages, that it would be unfair to prosecute.

    Lessons Will Be Learned*

    *will not include lessons. Will not include learning. Will not include Will. Will not include “Be”. Will not include bees.


  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    And people got angry then forgot about it after a day or two because royals/khardassians/big brother was in the news. Getting angry a bit did nothing and if they won't get angry when people die and the police lie through their teeth they aren't going to rise up for some posters getting prosecuted....sadly
    Simon Harwood was tried and found not guilty, then dismissed from the police.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,683

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    If Vennells and her cohorts aren’t jailed, why the fuck should the rest of us not break the law whenever it suits us?
    Because you just know that YOU will be jailed!
    Plus do the right thing, like all honest upright people do.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Simon Harwood was prosecuted but acquitted, then sacked from the police. So perhaps that why there was less outrage?
    And this was the response to that at the inquest

    "This verdict is a damning reflection of the systemic problems inherent in the current investigation system where deaths following police use of force are not treated as potential crimes. This failure has profound consequences on the proper functioning of the justice system in relation to such deaths.

    “It is vital that the rule of law is upheld and applies equally to all, including police officers, and that they do not believe that they can act with impunity.

    “For too long there has been a pattern of cases where inquest juries have found overwhelming evidence of unlawful and excessive use of force or gross neglect and yet no police officer either at an individual or senior management level has been held responsible.”

    source https://www.inquest.org.uk/ian-tomlinson-inquest-response-to-officer-acquittal
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119
    A
    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    It’s not so much one rule for the rich and one for the poor, as consequences don’t occur for the #NU10K.

    The defining characteristics that every possible effort is made to throw everything and everyone else overboard. And even then they pop up in a new role.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    If Vennells and her cohorts aren’t jailed, why the fuck should the rest of us not break the law whenever it suits us?
    You may as well as it is unlikely the police will bother to investigate if its not a twitter crime
  • FairlieredFairliered Posts: 5,059

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    If Vennells and her cohorts aren’t jailed, why the fuck should the rest of us not break the law whenever it suits us?
    Because you just know that YOU will be jailed!
    Plus do the right thing, like all honest upright people do.
    If I hadn’t been honest and upright all my life, maybe I would now be among the NU10K.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    If Vennells and her cohorts aren’t jailed, why the fuck should the rest of us not break the law whenever it suits us?
    Because you just know that YOU will be jailed!
    Plus do the right thing, like all honest upright people do.
    If I hadn’t been honest and upright all my life, maybe I would now be among the NU10K.
    Does seem to be an entry requirement if you want to be part of the scum rising to the top
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,473
    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: JK Rowling's comments about new hate crime laws "are not assessed to be criminal", police have said, as they confirmed no further action would be taken

    Wasn't this already known up front? Specifically, that the exposition of gender critical thought was not within the remit of the thing.
    Yes. There was never any possibility of her comments being deemed to be potentially criminal.
    They would never fight her in court, they will save it for their secret register where the plebs don't even know they have been marked down for some fkucwitted moron's opinion. Plod will take easy option. It is all virtue signalling by the clowns running the SNP and ruining the country, a bigger bunch of rubbish you would struggle to find.
    Jo Rowling knows they’ll never go after her, as she has basically unlimited financial resources and a worldwide media profile.

    What I think she’s doing, is to get police and prosecutors to quickly define where they are drawing the line, such that others can use the same defences in future. She’ll probably speak out, and possibly even dip into her pocket for a few lawyers, if she sees that initial standard being eroded over time.
    Either that of the hype over the law was substantially bunkum all along, and never intended to inhibit opinions like hers.
    The comments from many in the Scottish Government on the matter appear somewhat different. I shall defer to the excellent Mrs @Cyclefree and yesterday’s header on the subject.

    It’s also worth noting that this discussion has crossed the Pond - here’s an epic five-hour podcast with Joe Rogan and four comedian friends last week, that opened with discussions about this new law. https://youtube.com/watch?v=cV71YMAwIXY
    It’s fair to say that not many American comics will turn up in Edinburgh this year, if they feel that their speech might be policed by the actual Scottish police. That’s a direct hit to the Scottish economy, for as long as it takes for the actual implications of this law to become known by case law and appellate courts.
    Comedians who want to appear on Rogan's show are not representative of all US comedians. Rogan has shared COVID-19 conspiracy theories (and HIV conspiracy theories). He's shared anti-vax views. He's shared antisemitic tropes (e.g. saying the "idea that Jewish people are not into money is ridiculous"). He's a polarising guy with some views that are, at best, eccentric, or at worst dangerous.

    In other words, he's a loon. Why on earth are you listening to him? He spreads nonsense about Ukraine too, and supports Trump's position on it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,473
    edited April 2
    Penalty!
    Bloody hell. DCL scores!
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119
    malcolmg said:

    Taz said:

    malcolmg said:

    Have we done this?

    Humza Yousaf has said it is "increasingly difficult" to shield his children from racism after he was targeted with Islamophobic graffiti near his Dundee home.

    Racist slurs relating to the Scottish first minister's Pakistani heritage were sprayed on the walls and fences of homes in a street in Broughty Ferry, on Monday.

    It is near to where the first minister lives with his wife and two children.

    The graffiti, which has since been removed, happened on the day the Scottish government's controversial new hate crime laws came into force.


    https://news.sky.com/story/first-minister-humza-yousaf-condemns-racist-graffiti-aimed-at-him-near-dundee-home-13106494

    The clown is always on about racism , he practices it himself , re the nursery where he had to drop the charges as it was just rubbish , and constantly saying there are too many white people in Scotland, and on and on . The man is a moron and invites trouble at every cut and turn. A real roaster "family man " as well allegedly. He really needs to be ousted ASAP.
    Not that that at all justifies the brain dead morons who did the racist graffiti, though state of the country and the education system etc is all under his control.
    Wouldn’t the law, prior to this hate crime legislation, dealt with that graffiti anyway ? It’s not,like it’s a new law brought in to deal with it. Or am I mistaken ?
    You're not mistaken. And malky is right - and how many times can you say that?
    Tut Tut , I am rarely wrong
    IIRC, racist graffiti can get you up to 6 months in jail and/or £5k fine, in a Magistrates Court in
    England.

    There are options to charge with heavier offences which get you to Crown Court - that goes up to 7 years, IIRC, for persistent, aggravated campaigns of racist stuff.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,730

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    If Vennells and her cohorts aren’t jailed, why the fuck should the rest of us not break the law whenever it suits us?
    Because you just know that YOU will be jailed!
    Plus do the right thing, like all honest upright people do.
    If I hadn’t been honest and upright all my life, maybe I would now be among the NU10K.
    Shrewd, compassionate, sensible and scrupulously honest, she has overcome all these handicaps to ascend to the nation’s highest office.

    Spot the film reference!
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: JK Rowling's comments about new hate crime laws "are not assessed to be criminal", police have said, as they confirmed no further action would be taken

    Wasn't this already known up front? Specifically, that the exposition of gender critical thought was not within the remit of the thing.
    Yes. There was never any possibility of her comments being deemed to be potentially criminal.
    They would never fight her in court, they will save it for their secret register where the plebs don't even know they have been marked down for some fkucwitted moron's opinion. Plod will take easy option. It is all virtue signalling by the clowns running the SNP and ruining the country, a bigger bunch of rubbish you would struggle to find.
    Jo Rowling knows they’ll never go after her, as she has basically unlimited financial resources and a worldwide media profile.

    What I think she’s doing, is to get police and prosecutors to quickly define where they are drawing the line, such that others can use the same defences in future. She’ll probably speak out, and possibly even dip into her pocket for a few lawyers, if she sees that initial standard being eroded over time.
    Either that of the hype over the law was substantially bunkum all along, and never intended to inhibit opinions like hers.
    The comments from many in the Scottish Government on the matter appear somewhat different. I shall defer to the excellent Mrs @Cyclefree and yesterday’s header on the subject.

    It’s also worth noting that this discussion has crossed the Pond - here’s an epic five-hour podcast with Joe Rogan and four comedian friends last week, that opened with discussions about this new law. https://youtube.com/watch?v=cV71YMAwIXY
    It’s fair to say that not many American comics will turn up in Edinburgh this year, if they feel that their speech might be policed by the actual Scottish police. That’s a direct hit to the Scottish economy, for as long as it takes for the actual implications of this law to become known by case law and appellate courts.
    Comedians who want to appear on Rogan's show are not representative of all US comedians. Rogan has shared COVID-19 conspiracy theories (and HIV conspiracy theories). He's shared anti-vax views. He's shared antisemitic tropes (e.g. saying the "idea that Jewish people are not into money is ridiculous"). He's a polarising guy with some views that are, at best, eccentric, or at worst dangerous.

    In other words, he's a loon. Why on earth are you listening to him? He spreads nonsense about Ukraine too, and supports Trump's position on it.
    Just because someone is a loon, and a conspiracist theorist( and I agree Rogan is) does not however mean he is automatically wrong about everything. Cf Griffin ( a total racist and fascist) but he was correct about the grooming gangs.

    Dismissing what people say because they also say things that we violently disgree with or think are looney is easy. I am sure people do it with me because I often say things that make people uncomfortable. However does not mean that on somethings maybe they have a point.
  • bondegezoubondegezou Posts: 11,473
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yes we have all out elections too. That includes council seats in new wards in areas that were up in bad years locally for the Tories, ie 2023 and 2022 as well as the better year of 2021.

    That combined with fewer seats being up than last year and a reasonable performance by Susan Hall given current polls mean the local elections, although bad, won't be bad enough for Sunak to be removed by Tory MPs and he will survive until the general election as leader and PM

    I see the Conservatives are desperately trying to downplay expectations on the May elections.

    We can do better than that - what's a "reasonable performance" by Susan Hall, the 35% achieved by Shaun Bailey, 30%?, 25%?

    As for the local and PCC contests, we can take a view as well. As for the former, how about losing Dudley to Labour and Dorset to the LDs? What about the eight Conservative held District Councils with all up elections?

    They would be Basildon, Epping Forest, Fareham, Gloucester, Harlow, Havant, Nuneaton & Bedworth and Redditch? Would losing control of half of those represent a bad night? What about losing control of all of them?

    The Conservatives currently have 30 of the 39 PCCs in England and Wales having won the 2021 elections by 14.5 points. What would be a bad night in your view - losing ten, losing twenty?
    The London Assembly elections have produced fairly stables results for the Conservatives: 9, 9, 11, 9, 8, 9. I think that's one benchmark. Do they go below 8 and, if so, how much lower?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    I am sure there is some truth in this, but I think the money part is overplayed. Arguably some things are wrong - use of expensiveness to suppress stuff, for instance. Making it too costly to go after wrongdoing.
    We will see. Someone has lied and lied and lied. With real world consequence.
    I thought people would be outraged about the killing of an innocent of the killing of an innocent brazilian electrician....
    Result Dick got a promotion the public did nothing

    I thought people would be outraged over the killing of a newspaper vendor after the police were shown to be lying through their teeth (Tomlinson)

    Result Kier said no charges to be brought the british public did nothing.

    You really believe they are going to get incensed about some sub postmasters?
    Yes, because the ITV drama hit home. The Brazilian electrician was incredibly unlucky, but the public cut the police some slack because of the prevailing terrorism at the time. People did get angry about Ian Tomlinson, again someone was unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    The post masters also have a superb leader, who I suspect will not just roll over.
    You may be right, but I hope not.
    If Vennells and her cohorts aren’t jailed, why the fuck should the rest of us not break the law whenever it suits us?
    Because you just know that YOU will be jailed!
    Plus do the right thing, like all honest upright people do.
    If I hadn’t been honest and upright all my life, maybe I would now be among the NU10K.
    The requirement is more that you are a “safe pair of hands” and a “team player”.

    Aka do you cover up, instinctively, for people like yourself?

    Also, a kind of bland incompetence and ability to bullshit at length are useful.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991
    Pagan2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    malcolmg said:

    kinabalu said:

    viewcode said:

    Scott_xP said:

    @SkyNews

    BREAKING: JK Rowling's comments about new hate crime laws "are not assessed to be criminal", police have said, as they confirmed no further action would be taken

    Wasn't this already known up front? Specifically, that the exposition of gender critical thought was not within the remit of the thing.
    Yes. There was never any possibility of her comments being deemed to be potentially criminal.
    They would never fight her in court, they will save it for their secret register where the plebs don't even know they have been marked down for some fkucwitted moron's opinion. Plod will take easy option. It is all virtue signalling by the clowns running the SNP and ruining the country, a bigger bunch of rubbish you would struggle to find.
    Jo Rowling knows they’ll never go after her, as she has basically unlimited financial resources and a worldwide media profile.

    What I think she’s doing, is to get police and prosecutors to quickly define where they are drawing the line, such that others can use the same defences in future. She’ll probably speak out, and possibly even dip into her pocket for a few lawyers, if she sees that initial standard being eroded over time.
    Either that of the hype over the law was substantially bunkum all along, and never intended to inhibit opinions like hers.
    The comments from many in the Scottish Government on the matter appear somewhat different. I shall defer to the excellent Mrs @Cyclefree and yesterday’s header on the subject.

    It’s also worth noting that this discussion has crossed the Pond - here’s an epic five-hour podcast with Joe Rogan and four comedian friends last week, that opened with discussions about this new law. https://youtube.com/watch?v=cV71YMAwIXY
    It’s fair to say that not many American comics will turn up in Edinburgh this year, if they feel that their speech might be policed by the actual Scottish police. That’s a direct hit to the Scottish economy, for as long as it takes for the actual implications of this law to become known by case law and appellate courts.
    Comedians who want to appear on Rogan's show are not representative of all US comedians. Rogan has shared COVID-19 conspiracy theories (and HIV conspiracy theories). He's shared anti-vax views. He's shared antisemitic tropes (e.g. saying the "idea that Jewish people are not into money is ridiculous"). He's a polarising guy with some views that are, at best, eccentric, or at worst dangerous.

    In other words, he's a loon. Why on earth are you listening to him? He spreads nonsense about Ukraine too, and supports Trump's position on it.
    Just because someone is a loon, and a conspiracist theorist( and I agree Rogan is) does not however mean he is automatically wrong about everything. Cf Griffin ( a total racist and fascist) but he was correct about the grooming gangs.

    Dismissing what people say because they also say things that we violently disgree with or think are looney is easy. I am sure people do it with me because I often say things that make people uncomfortable. However does not mean that on somethings maybe they have a point.
    To give an example of this and @kinabalu this is not intended to be offensive, I often violently disagree with his views and find some of them ludicrous, as I am sure he does mine. However I do read what he has written usually and sometimes agree he has a point. I judge what is said not the person saying it being the point
  • dixiedean said:

    Penalty!
    Bloody hell. DCL scores!

    I know this will upset you, but I've never like Everton. It's the mints, you see. They are ultimately incredibly disappointing, and that is something I will forget but can never forgive.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 49,127

    Pagan2 said:

    DavidL said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Difficult to believe the execs at Post Office at the time could be in any more shit, but explosive new evidence from Ch4 news tonight:


    Channel 4 News
    @Channel4News
    More secret tapes prove Post Office boss briefed on system backdoor

    https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1775222755916447873

    Seriously, if no one does significant time for this, then all faith in Justice in this country will be lost.
    You assume most people currently have faith in our justice system. I don't speak for anyone but me but I lost all faith a couple of decades ago when it became obvious there is a rule for the rich/famous and one for the plebs
    The current DPP really needs to have a couple of very senior people appearing from custody in relation to this now. Its starting to look like they gave it to Police Scotland to investigate.
    Prediction no one senior will get prosecuted, they may find a junior or two to scapegoat
    Remember - the *judge* in the Kids Company case said that it would be unfair to hold the legally liable trustees legally liable for their voluntarily assumed legal liabilities.

    The CPS said, when Blair & Co. got caught selling peerages, that it would be unfair to prosecute.

    Lessons Will Be Learned*

    *will not include lessons. Will not include learning. Will not include Will. Will not include “Be”. Will not include bees.


    I don't think that is true.

    Kds Company was a CIO (that is a Charitable Incorporated Organisation).so the Trustees were effectively non-executive directors and covered by limited liability in the same way as other company's.

    The court case was over whether the Trustees were reckless with their supervision of the finances and were found not to be. There were no allegations of criminality, and at worst they could be barred from other directorships for a time.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,326

    Darren Jones MP
    @darrenpjones
    ·
    37m
    Covid stopped me asking Paula Vennells in person about what she knew.

    In a written response she said:

    “I raised this question repeatedly…and was given the same answer: it was not possible”

    We now know she knew.

    It’s the darkest misleading of Parliament I’ve ever seen.

    https://twitter.com/darrenpjones/status/1775231984870035531

    "Misleading" is far too kind.

    This is outright lying and perjury and by the Post Office's lawyers to the courts.

    Who taped all these calls? Why? Who knew about them? And why are they only being released now?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 51,119

    viewcode said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @bigjohnowls

    I look forward you posting - and celebrating - the upcoming record performance of Starmer, when he registers more Labour votes in England than Corbyn achieved in 2017.

    Why nothing will change

    What POLICY are you looking forward to as a positive change under SKS
    Why would I want policies? All governments do is fuck things up. I am looking for masterly inaction.
    Do nothing, do it as slowly as possible, and let the country sort itself out. There is an argument for this: people eventually sort problems out without government help.
    That was THE basic politico-governmental principle of Stanley Baldwin during is days as CUP Leader and UK Prime Minister. He believed - and said as much - that most so-called crises will eventually take care of themselves . . . PROVIDED their is sufficient degree of delay and inaction.

    Helped make him quite popular during his time in front-line politics.

    HOWEVER, his policy of masterly inactivity proved LESS effective, and eventually WAY less popular, when applied to military aircraft production.

    Despite (or because?) of his assurance (?) that, "I think it is well also for the man in the street to realise that there is no power on earth that can protect him from being bombed. Whatever people may tell him, the bomber will always get through." (source SB's wiki-bio)
    Actually, rearmament started in 1932 and by about 1935 was hitting limits on what to spend money on.

    This is because military production capability isn’t just matter of diverting GDP. U.K. rearmament was predicated on building factories first, weapons later.

    As it was, we ended up buying, for example, lots of Fairey Battles. Which were known to be pretty useless - the idea was that they could be built by existing factories, training the workers. Because they were single engined, they were cheap - allowing rapid forming of squadrons. And their crews - pilot, navigator and gunner - would form the nucleus of the crews for the actual bombers planned for the War - the B1/39 designs, for example. Which made Lancasters look small and underarmed.

    Unfortunately, Hitler started the war much earlier than he had planned. The original schedule was for mid 1942.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 9,991
    edited April 2
    Cyclefree said:

    Darren Jones MP
    @darrenpjones
    ·
    37m
    Covid stopped me asking Paula Vennells in person about what she knew.

    In a written response she said:

    “I raised this question repeatedly…and was given the same answer: it was not possible”

    We now know she knew.

    It’s the darkest misleading of Parliament I’ve ever seen.

    https://twitter.com/darrenpjones/status/1775231984870035531

    "Misleading" is far too kind.

    This is outright lying and perjury and by the Post Office's lawyers to the courts.

    Who taped all these calls? Why? Who knew about them? And why are they only being released now?
    I would assume a canny junior who wanted to cover their ass rather than be shat upon when senior ranks said "No one told me"
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,473
    edited April 2
    8 games to go.
    We've got Burnley, Brentford, Forest and Sheffield United to play at home.
    And Luton away.
    So all five of the rest of the bottom six.
    We should stay up from here.
This discussion has been closed.