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London is becoming a no go area for the Tories – politicalbetting.com

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  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    Why is that a problem?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174
    edited February 28

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
  • jamesdoylejamesdoyle Posts: 790

    Leon said:

    On topic: I just want to report that I am in the new Air France Business Class 777 Dreamliner thingy, and the seats apparently move automatically


    WHOAHHHH

    Do you mean 787?
    I don't think Leon knows what he means. ;)
    Keep safe for future reuse.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 17,392

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    Unfortunately, Thatcher read Going Postal and decided to turn it into party policy. Which explains the state of our infrastructure.
    Well as Going Postal was written in 2004 that seems a bit unlikely.

    What it does illustrate, once again, is just how sharp a commentator Pratchett was. Just as with the Vimes's Boot theory. That literary snobs dismissed one of Britain's greatest writers says more about them than anything else. I heard a great story from his later years, of paying a bill of multiple 10's of thousands, with some loose money from a pocket, such was his wealth at that point.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    @NickyBreakspear
    Very interesting, thank you.
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's not the killer point the Guardian thinks it is.
    That's either a poor attempt at humour, or an exceedingly stupid take on the article.
    Nobody who is sensible thinks Khan is under the thumb of Islamists. We don't need to be told this to prove it.

    Previously, we've been told about the far-right threats to Khan, but now it's convenient, they tell us about the Islamist threats.
    It's not the first time we're hearing about them though, is it?

    For example, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65656310 is from May 23

    "Then there are people who follow Daesh (Islamic State) and al-Qaeda who think you can't be a Muslim and a westerner, I get it from both sides in relation to the death threats."

    Or you can go back a lot further:
    https://www.thepinknews.com/2013/02/18/labour-mp-sadiq-khan-receives-death-threats-for-supporting-same-sex-marriage/
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    edited February 28
    In my view the most important finding from that More in Common polling is this:

    "Party leaders aren’t wowing voters

    The party leaders are not a top draw for any of the key voter groups. People are more likely to be voting against a leader of another party than for their leader. This election will be about parties not personalities."

    The election will be about parties not personalities. This is something I think Labour have probably understood but the Conservatives (and many commentators) appear not to. This is a big change from the last election when it really seemed to be Johnson vs Corbyn, as well as Brexit vs Remain.

    Also probably true in the trends in Scotland. No longer is it dominated by the huge personalities of Salmond or Sturgeon, so it's now about party positioning.

    That Lib Dem voter data point too - that they are voting to get the Tories out. Although they say "people are more likely to be voting against the leader of another party than for their leader" the other data points including this one suggest they're not voting to get Sunak out, nor would they be voting hypothetically to get Badenoch, or Mordaunt, or even a returning Boris out. It's the party. Therefore the idea that changing the leader will transform their fortunes is I think wishful thinking.

    People aren't voting specifically for Keir, in the way that perhaps they were doing for Blair. So the strength and cohesion of the Labour front bench becomes more important in convincing the voters. This is where the reasonably solid performances by Streeting, Reeves, Lammy, Reynolds and so on (and even the marginalised but very much on top of his brief Ed Miliband) have helped to project a degree of competence.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    This tends to suggest that the only main potential movement back to the Conservatives are their don't knows. Both Conservative to Labour and Conservative to Reform switchers appear to have gone.

    Are the Conservatives focusing on retaining those don't knows, or are their current policies and approach focused on another section of the electorate?

    My feeling is the more in common report doesn't capture the scale of the Conservative voter strike, and the depth of their feeling. Many activists I know think Sunak is hopeless and aren't prepared to help what many see as too 'big-government' a government get reelected.

    This will only be worse after May, when the councillor base will likely be much smaller too.
    The losses if it's council only elections in May will be bad, but my suspicion is they'd be worse if there was a GE as the "extra" turnout will be more favourable to Labour.
    True, but less favourable for the Lib Dems.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,580
    Nigelb said:

    Without tariffs, the Chinese auto industry is going to be a huge threat to all western manufacturers.

    American Test Of $11,500 BYD Seagull: 'This Doesn't Come Across Cheap'
    The imported EV hatchback may only cost $11,500 but it impressed industry veteran John McElroy.
    https://insideevs.com/news/710364/byd-detroit-import-seagull-caresoft/

    Yep, they’re about to become a massive problem. We’re starting to see them in my region at the moment, and they’re probably as close in quality to the Koreans as the Koreans are now to the Japanese, but at a price 30-40% off the Koreans.

    For 90% of people it’s going to be all the car they need, and seriously threatens local car manufacturing pretty much everywhere else in the world.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,062
    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,558

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    Israel should feel shame for their positions earlier in the war, when they were rather warmer towards Russia.

    (They should also feel shame for many other positions as well...)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    This tends to suggest that the only main potential movement back to the Conservatives are their don't knows. Both Conservative to Labour and Conservative to Reform switchers appear to have gone.

    Are the Conservatives focusing on retaining those don't knows, or are their current policies and approach focused on another section of the electorate?

    My feeling is the more in common report doesn't capture the scale of the Conservative voter strike, and the depth of their feeling. Many activists I know think Sunak is hopeless and aren't prepared to help what many see as too 'big-government' a government get reelected.

    This will only be worse after May, when the councillor base will likely be much smaller too.
    The losses if it's council only elections in May will be bad, but my suspicion is they'd be worse if there was a GE as the "extra" turnout will be more favourable to Labour.
    True, but less favourable for the Lib Dems.
    I'm not sure it's true actually. The lower the turnout the worse the results for the Tories would be my bet, as they are disproportionately hit by their own voters striking.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    Israel should feel shame for their positions earlier in the war, when they were rather warmer towards Russia.

    (They should also feel shame for many other positions as well...)
    Unfortunately there is geopolitical danger for Ukraine in this, if the world is dividing into pro and anti-Israeli camps. Ukraine then finds itself on one side of a divided UN, while Russia redeems itself in the eyes anti-Israeli countries.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 22,812
    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
  • TimS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    This tends to suggest that the only main potential movement back to the Conservatives are their don't knows. Both Conservative to Labour and Conservative to Reform switchers appear to have gone.

    Are the Conservatives focusing on retaining those don't knows, or are their current policies and approach focused on another section of the electorate?

    My feeling is the more in common report doesn't capture the scale of the Conservative voter strike, and the depth of their feeling. Many activists I know think Sunak is hopeless and aren't prepared to help what many see as too 'big-government' a government get reelected.

    This will only be worse after May, when the councillor base will likely be much smaller too.
    The losses if it's council only elections in May will be bad, but my suspicion is they'd be worse if there was a GE as the "extra" turnout will be more favourable to Labour.
    True, but less favourable for the Lib Dems.
    I'm not sure it's true actually. The lower the turnout the worse the results for the Tories would be my bet, as they are disproportionately hit by their own voters striking.
    Err, that's what I'm saying, a GE turnout would negate LD local campaigning.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,220
    edited February 28
    kamski said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's not the killer point the Guardian thinks it is.
    That's either a poor attempt at humour, or an exceedingly stupid take on the article.
    Nobody who is sensible thinks Khan is under the thumb of Islamists. We don't need to be told this to prove it.

    Previously, we've been told about the far-right threats to Khan, but now it's convenient, they tell us about the Islamist threats.
    It's not the first time we're hearing about them though, is it?

    For example, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65656310 is from May 23

    "Then there are people who follow Daesh (Islamic State) and al-Qaeda who think you can't be a Muslim and a westerner, I get it from both sides in relation to the death threats."

    Or you can go back a lot further:
    https://www.thepinknews.com/2013/02/18/labour-mp-sadiq-khan-receives-death-threats-for-supporting-same-sex-marriage/
    As with all violent fuckwit revolutionaries, purifying The People of The Wrong Sort Of Believers/Traitors is a priority.

    IKKKKKKAAAARRRRRAAAA!
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    edited February 28

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    Israel should feel shame for their positions earlier in the war, when they were rather warmer towards Russia.

    (They should also feel shame for many other positions as well...)
    There are times when it is right to hold people/countries accountable for the decisions they have made in the past, but right now, with Russia's war on Ukraine, I'm much more interested in what people/countries are doing now and in the future.

    So I'm going to praise Israel for this action, and hope for more, and leave a reckoning on who did or didn't do what for later.

    In general, the point at which someone has repented, and begun to make amends, is not the time to attempt to make them feel maximum shame about their past actions. It's really not making friends and influencing people.
  • Harry has lost his high court case re his security when visiting the UK
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986
    @RachelReevesMP

    The economy is now smaller than it was when the Prime Minister entered Downing Street.

    This is Rishi's Recession - and it's time for change.

    https://x.com/RachelReevesMP/status/1762792227854532705
  • glwglw Posts: 9,906

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    It's probably more to do with Russia and Iran's increasingly close cooperation. Out of necessity Russia is becoming a major Iranian trading partner, and Russian weapons can substantially increase the Iranian threat.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 35,986
    @Savanta_UK
    🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈18pt Labour lead

    🌹Lab 44 (+2)
    🌳Con 26 (-2)
    🔶LD 10 (=)
    ➡️Reform 10 (+2)
    🌍Green 4 (=)
    🎗️SNP 3 (=)
    ⬜️Other 4 (-1)

    2,097 UK adults, 23-25 February

    (chg 16-18 February)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 42,558

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    Israel should feel shame for their positions earlier in the war, when they were rather warmer towards Russia.

    (They should also feel shame for many other positions as well...)
    There are times when it is right to hold people/countries accountable for the decisions they have made in the past, but right now, with Russia's war on Ukraine, I'm much more interested in what people/countries are doing now and in the future.

    So I'm going to praise Israel for this action, and hope for more, and leave a reckoning on who did or didn't do what for later.

    In general, the point at which someone has repented, and begun to make amends, is not the time to attempt to make them feel maximum shame about their past actions. It's really not making friends and influencing people.
    I know what you mean, but I'm unsure this is actually 'repentance' and a decision that Ukraine is now in the right.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,656
    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    This tends to suggest that the only main potential movement back to the Conservatives are their don't knows. Both Conservative to Labour and Conservative to Reform switchers appear to have gone.

    Are the Conservatives focusing on retaining those don't knows, or are their current policies and approach focused on another section of the electorate?

    My feeling is the more in common report doesn't capture the scale of the Conservative voter strike, and the depth of their feeling. Many activists I know think Sunak is hopeless and aren't prepared to help what many see as too 'big-government' a government get reelected.

    This will only be worse after May, when the councillor base will likely be much smaller too.
    The losses if it's council only elections in May will be bad, but my suspicion is they'd be worse if there was a GE as the "extra" turnout will be more favourable to Labour.
    Although in May 2017 Labours LE results weren't great.

    The GE less than a month later showed the biggest swing to Labour since WW2

    That bloody toxic Corbyn eh
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,580

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    Israel should feel shame for their positions earlier in the war, when they were rather warmer towards Russia.

    (They should also feel shame for many other positions as well...)
    There are times when it is right to hold people/countries accountable for the decisions they have made in the past, but right now, with Russia's war on Ukraine, I'm much more interested in what people/countries are doing now and in the future.

    So I'm going to praise Israel for this action, and hope for more, and leave a reckoning on who did or didn't do what for later.

    In general, the point at which someone has repented, and begun to make amends, is not the time to attempt to make them feel maximum shame about their past actions. It's really not making friends and influencing people.
    Yes, well done Israel. Most of the Middle East region has avoided taking sides in this conflict, so any that now choose to help Ukraine is to be welcomed.

    The Iron Dome system is joint US/Israel technology, probably the best of its kind anywhere at the moment, and they’ve now both given permission for it to go to Ukraine.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721
    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,220

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
    Sounds like a complicated way of diluting down the existing shareholders.

    Why not just let them own the fuckup and lose their shirts?
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984

    TimS said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    This tends to suggest that the only main potential movement back to the Conservatives are their don't knows. Both Conservative to Labour and Conservative to Reform switchers appear to have gone.

    Are the Conservatives focusing on retaining those don't knows, or are their current policies and approach focused on another section of the electorate?

    My feeling is the more in common report doesn't capture the scale of the Conservative voter strike, and the depth of their feeling. Many activists I know think Sunak is hopeless and aren't prepared to help what many see as too 'big-government' a government get reelected.

    This will only be worse after May, when the councillor base will likely be much smaller too.
    The losses if it's council only elections in May will be bad, but my suspicion is they'd be worse if there was a GE as the "extra" turnout will be more favourable to Labour.
    True, but less favourable for the Lib Dems.
    I'm not sure it's true actually. The lower the turnout the worse the results for the Tories would be my bet, as they are disproportionately hit by their own voters striking.
    Err, that's what I'm saying, a GE turnout would negate LD local campaigning.
    I was responding to the original post to which you'd replied "true, but", rather than the LD point. I don't think the extra GE turnout would benefit Labour in the locals.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,220
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Without tariffs, the Chinese auto industry is going to be a huge threat to all western manufacturers.

    American Test Of $11,500 BYD Seagull: 'This Doesn't Come Across Cheap'
    The imported EV hatchback may only cost $11,500 but it impressed industry veteran John McElroy.
    https://insideevs.com/news/710364/byd-detroit-import-seagull-caresoft/

    Yep, they’re about to become a massive problem. We’re starting to see them in my region at the moment, and they’re probably as close in quality to the Koreans as the Koreans are now to the Japanese, but at a price 30-40% off the Koreans.

    For 90% of people it’s going to be all the car they need, and seriously threatens local car manufacturing pretty much everywhere else in the world.
    The German car companies are picking a very stupid time to back pedal on EVs.

    When price parity is first reached, then exceeded, that’s going to look like Boeing levels of genius.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,952
    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    Unfortunately, Thatcher read Going Postal and decided to turn it into party policy. Which explains the state of our infrastructure.
    Well as Going Postal was written in 2004 that seems a bit unlikely.

    What it does illustrate, once again, is just how sharp a commentator Pratchett was. Just as with the Vimes's Boot theory. That literary snobs dismissed one of Britain's greatest writers says more about them than anything else. I heard a great story from his later years, of paying a bill of multiple 10's of thousands, with some loose money from a pocket, such was his wealth at that point.
    I did my undergraduate and post graduate dissertations on Pratchett - if you or any PBers want to fund my PhD (in this world of telling art students that they have low value degrees), I'd happily take your grant monies (although you may dislike my verbose writing style and my views of Pratchett as a good leftist satirist). I would argue that (alongside the theory people) Pratchett is the most influential writer on my political thought.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    Unfortunately, Thatcher read Going Postal and decided to turn it into party policy. Which explains the state of our infrastructure.
    Well as Going Postal was written in 2004 that seems a bit unlikely.

    What it does illustrate, once again, is just how sharp a commentator Pratchett was. Just as with the Vimes's Boot theory. That literary snobs dismissed one of Britain's greatest writers says more about them than anything else. I heard a great story from his later years, of paying a bill of multiple 10's of thousands, with some loose money from a pocket, such was his wealth at that point.
    I think pre JKR he was the most internationally translated British author - even more so than JRRT (although that may be apocryphal)
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Scott_xP said:

    @Savanta_UK
    🚨NEW Westminster Voting Intention

    📈18pt Labour lead

    🌹Lab 44 (+2)
    🌳Con 26 (-2)
    🔶LD 10 (=)
    ➡️Reform 10 (+2)
    🌍Green 4 (=)
    🎗️SNP 3 (=)
    ⬜️Other 4 (-1)

    2,097 UK adults, 23-25 February

    (chg 16-18 February)

    Green remains low compared with much of the last 2 years. What's driving this? I would hazard a guess at:

    - Upcoming general election focusing minds on the actual constituency choices (though you'd expect that to effect RefUK vote too)
    - It's winter so people aren't out in nature listening to the birds or swimming in polluted water currently
    - Climate change has lost a bit of salience in recent months (I think that could be a big part of it - the topic tends to wax and wane in the news. Plus, it's winter albeit close to the warmest UK February on record)
    - It's a while since local elections, where the Greens tend to do well

    Against this, one would have expected a significant swing to Green from the pro-Palestinian Labour support. If a lot of this is amongst Muslim voters then possibly the Greens don't have the branding to capture this.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,062
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Without tariffs, the Chinese auto industry is going to be a huge threat to all western manufacturers.

    American Test Of $11,500 BYD Seagull: 'This Doesn't Come Across Cheap'
    The imported EV hatchback may only cost $11,500 but it impressed industry veteran John McElroy.
    https://insideevs.com/news/710364/byd-detroit-import-seagull-caresoft/

    Yep, they’re about to become a massive problem. We’re starting to see them in my region at the moment, and they’re probably as close in quality to the Koreans as the Koreans are now to the Japanese, but at a price 30-40% off the Koreans.

    For 90% of people it’s going to be all the car they need, and seriously threatens local car manufacturing pretty much everywhere else in the world.
    Given our position as net importers, it might be less a worry for us than others.
    But that's a mark of the poor state of UK manufacturing.
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    Unfortunately, Thatcher read Going Postal and decided to turn it into party policy. Which explains the state of our infrastructure.
    Well as Going Postal was written in 2004 that seems a bit unlikely.

    What it does illustrate, once again, is just how sharp a commentator Pratchett was. Just as with the Vimes's Boot theory. That literary snobs dismissed one of Britain's greatest writers says more about them than anything else. I heard a great story from his later years, of paying a bill of multiple 10's of thousands, with some loose money from a pocket, such was his wealth at that point.
    I did my undergraduate and post graduate dissertations on Pratchett - if you or any PBers want to fund my PhD (in this world of telling art students that they have low value degrees), I'd happily take your grant monies (although you may dislike my verbose writing style and my views of Pratchett as a good leftist satirist). I would argue that (alongside the theory people) Pratchett is the most influential writer on my political thought.
    If I win the lottery then I'd gladly fund a PhD on Pratchett and Politics.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
    You tend to hear the strongest views on this from the shoutiest most opinionated posters. I would assume the majority view is Russia bad, Hamas bad, Israel (Netanyahu) bad, Ukraine good.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,027
    edited February 28
    I read earlier this morning that the Sun is likely to come out for labour

    It doesn't appear so from this

    https://twitter.com/kelvmackenzie/status/1762745100826767690?t=sjY17HVcnxX3Ise-PnnnCg&s=19
  • Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    This tends to suggest that the only main potential movement back to the Conservatives are their don't knows. Both Conservative to Labour and Conservative to Reform switchers appear to have gone.

    Are the Conservatives focusing on retaining those don't knows, or are their current policies and approach focused on another section of the electorate?

    My feeling is the more in common report doesn't capture the scale of the Conservative voter strike, and the depth of their feeling. Many activists I know think Sunak is hopeless and aren't prepared to help what many see as too 'big-government' a government get reelected.

    This will only be worse after May, when the councillor base will likely be much smaller too.
    The losses if it's council only elections in May will be bad, but my suspicion is they'd be worse if there was a GE as the "extra" turnout will be more favourable to Labour.
    Although in May 2017 Labours LE results weren't great.

    The GE less than a month later showed the biggest swing to Labour since WW2

    That bloody toxic Corbyn eh
    No it wasn’t.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,062

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
    Thames Water is effectively bust without a bailout, so 'shares' are currently worth nothing.

    The numbers are that there is around £14bn of debt, much of which was incurred to pay past dividends on both shares and bonds. You're asking billpayers to pay for the debt.

    Wiping out the bondholders by way of administration would be a salutary warning to others not to take the piss in the future.
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721
    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
    You tend to hear the strongest views on this from the shoutiest most opinionated posters. I would assume the majority view is Russia bad, Hamas bad, Israel (Netanyahu) bad, Ukraine good.
    I work on the 'everyone bad' mindset. Brings a simply clarity to geopolitics. In any conflict, the bad fight the bad (as fighting is bad) and it's no surprise that the bad support the bad or - being bad - are bad friends and fail to support the bad or, indeed, turn round and support the other bad side :wink:
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
    Thames Water is effectively bust without a bailout, so 'shares' are currently worth nothing.

    The numbers are that there is around £14bn of debt, much of which was incurred to pay past dividends on both shares and bonds. You're asking billpayers to pay for the debt.

    Wiping out the bondholders by way of administration would be a salutary warning to others not to take the piss in the future.
    Don't they recycle the piss, rather?

    But quite so.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    Agree.

    And also like the hidden zinger:

    Thames Water - we take the piss.
  • It's not just conservative party members who get upset by their leaders or potential leaders

    https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/livid-welsh-labour-members-say-28710471
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
    Thames Water is effectively bust without a bailout, so 'shares' are currently worth nothing.

    The numbers are that there is around £14bn of debt, much of which was incurred to pay past dividends on both shares and bonds. You're asking billpayers to pay for the debt.

    Wiping out the bondholders by way of administration would be a salutary warning to others not to take the piss in the future.
    Don't they recycle the piss, rather?

    But quite so.
    Sorry, you beat me to it.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    This tends to suggest that the only main potential movement back to the Conservatives are their don't knows. Both Conservative to Labour and Conservative to Reform switchers appear to have gone.

    Are the Conservatives focusing on retaining those don't knows, or are their current policies and approach focused on another section of the electorate?

    My feeling is the more in common report doesn't capture the scale of the Conservative voter strike, and the depth of their feeling. Many activists I know think Sunak is hopeless and aren't prepared to help what many see as too 'big-government' a government get reelected.

    This will only be worse after May, when the councillor base will likely be much smaller too.
    The losses if it's council only elections in May will be bad, but my suspicion is they'd be worse if there was a GE as the "extra" turnout will be more favourable to Labour.
    Although in May 2017 Labours LE results weren't great.

    The GE less than a month later showed the biggest swing increase in Labour's vote since WW2

    That bloody toxic Corbyn eh
    No it wasn’t.
    Corrected it for everyone.
  • I read earlier this morning that the Sun is likely to come out for labour

    It doesn't appear so from this

    https://twitter.com/kelvmackenzie/status/1762745100826767690?t=sjY17HVcnxX3Ise-PnnnCg&s=19

    Murdoch has a choice then.

    Back Starmer or back a loser. He won't like doing either. I can see him burying all election coverage on about page 14.

    Poor Rupert. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,897
    stodge said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    As long as the Cons fail to see the multiple issues ordinary people face in just getting by daily then they will continue to decline, and going "full Trump" is certainly not going to arrest that decline. Susan Hall is an awful, harsh sounding candidate and will fail. In the GE they may hang on in a couple of seats, but it's not going to be good for them at all.

    The longer they leave it the worse it will be for them.

    The Tories hate everything about London: it's young university educated population, its cosmopolitan neighbourhoods, its liberality, its impoverished poor, its culture. They offer nothing to alleviate the hardship of the housing situation, or to support the people. Why would they get votes here with their neanderthal nativism?
    I hate London's homophobia

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/londoners-less-tolerant-of-gay-or-transgender-children-polls-reveals-10119183.html
    I see those of us in the North, and the Scots, are the most accepting. Listening to some people here you'd think us northerners were a mass of hatred and bigotry and the south were the enlightened ones.

    Facts versus opinion/guess.
    According to @Foxy, the bigotry is:

    "mostly down to homophobia and transphobia amongst some socially conservative communities overrepresented in London demographics"

    Whatever that means.
    What it means is the stereotype of Londoners as metropolitan, tolerant and liberal is as false as the notion provincial England is socially conservative if not reactionary.

    There are intolerant people in London just as there are intolerant people everywhere. There are strong socially conservative communities in many parts of the capital - among devoutly religious groups including Christian evangelicals, Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc for example. Of course you don't have to be religious or have strong personal faith to be socially conservative not does having faith mean you can't be socially liberal but without wishing to over-generalise..

    All this does (rightly) is challenge preconceptions or misconceptions about London. Newham for example has fewer atheists and agnostics than almost anywhere else. Faith is very important - which faith is another matter and I wouldn't want to overstate this but evangelical churches are noticeable here with a new one for the Latin American community having recently opened off the Barking Road.
    I would put it down to education first by a long way then probably age and a good first indicator is a vote for 'Leave'. A short Dutch documentary taken in Clacton. They seem to be mostly white English......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUej2pWLUUc
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814
    edited February 28

    On the subject of HMRC...

    I'm seeing a guy today, a bit 'alternative', he earns only £10-£12k pa as a self-employed jobbing craftsman (his choice). Living very simply he asks for and gets no state help.

    But he's in hoc to HRMC for a £2k for failing to file two years tax returns on-line properly. It appears he completed the forms (zero tax to pay) but failed to press 'submit', not really being very IT literate.

    He's got no way of paying the fines but they're threatening court action.

    Interesting challenge.

    IIRC it used to be the case that hmrc couldn't fine you more than the tax you owed, to preclude precisely this kind of case, which offends against natural justice. But the current government got rid of that rule, while its wealthy members pay lower effective tax rates than nurses. Get these people out of government.
    That's exactly what I had wondered about - so thanks for clearing that up. I'd had a similar problem with my late mother's tax, not done for 5 years, and she hadn't told me, though in her case ill health and the fact that she was owed back tax for 4 of the 5 probably did the trick to get her off the fine in those years before the rulke change.

    I did notice this in the Grsaun earlier. Probably not unrelated, the income has to be made up somehow:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/18/hmrc-investigations-of-wealthy-tax-dodgers-halve-in-five-years
  • TimSTimS Posts: 12,984
    Selebian said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
    You tend to hear the strongest views on this from the shoutiest most opinionated posters. I would assume the majority view is Russia bad, Hamas bad, Israel (Netanyahu) bad, Ukraine good.
    I work on the 'everyone bad' mindset. Brings a simply clarity to geopolitics. In any conflict, the bad fight the bad (as fighting is bad) and it's no surprise that the bad support the bad or - being bad - are bad friends and fail to support the bad or, indeed, turn round and support the other bad side :wink:
    All as bad as each other is rather what Russia would like the world (particularly the West) to believe. It encourages leaders to abandon Ukraine.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,062
    New Space Race is also on.

    China’s 2024 space plans include 100 launches and moon sample return mission
    https://spacenews.com/chinas-2024-space-plans-include-100-launches-and-moon-sample-return-mission/
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Carnyx said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
    Thames Water is effectively bust without a bailout, so 'shares' are currently worth nothing.

    The numbers are that there is around £14bn of debt, much of which was incurred to pay past dividends on both shares and bonds. You're asking billpayers to pay for the debt.

    Wiping out the bondholders by way of administration would be a salutary warning to others not to take the piss in the future.
    Don't they recycle the piss, rather?

    But quite so.
    Sorry, you beat me to it.
    Oh, yours is good too!
  • SelebianSelebian Posts: 8,721
    TimS said:

    Selebian said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
    You tend to hear the strongest views on this from the shoutiest most opinionated posters. I would assume the majority view is Russia bad, Hamas bad, Israel (Netanyahu) bad, Ukraine good.
    I work on the 'everyone bad' mindset. Brings a simply clarity to geopolitics. In any conflict, the bad fight the bad (as fighting is bad) and it's no surprise that the bad support the bad or - being bad - are bad friends and fail to support the bad or, indeed, turn round and support the other bad side :wink:
    All as bad as each other is rather what Russia would like the world (particularly the West) to believe. It encourages leaders to abandon Ukraine.
    Yes. I had in mind more the Israel-Hamas conflict and some others around the world.

    It's not hard to pick a side in Ukraine-Russia.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479
    Carnyx said:

    On the subject of HMRC...

    I'm seeing a guy today, a bit 'alternative', he earns only £10-£12k pa as a self-employed jobbing craftsman (his choice). Living very simply he asks for and gets no state help.

    But he's in hoc to HRMC for a £2k for failing to file two years tax returns on-line properly. It appears he completed the forms (zero tax to pay) but failed to press 'submit', not really being very IT literate.

    He's got no way of paying the fines but they're threatening court action.

    Interesting challenge.

    IIRC it used to be the case that hmrc couldn't fine you more than the tax you owed, to preclude precisely this kind of case, which offends against natural justice. But the current government got rid of that rule, while its wealthy members pay lower effective tax rates than nurses. Get these people out of government.
    That's exactly what I had wondered about - so thanks for clearing that up. I'd had a similar problem with my late mother's tax, not done for 5 years, and she hadn't told me, though in her case ill health and the fact that she was owed back tax for 4 of the 5 probably did the trick to get her off the fine in those years before the rulke change.

    I did notice this in the Grsaun earlier. Probably not unrelated, the income has to be made up somehow:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/18/hmrc-investigations-of-wealthy-tax-dodgers-halve-in-five-years
    @benpointer I heard a similar story albeit from a wealthy professional couple and only one year’s (non)submission . In the end the Taxman relented but took a protracted battle and a long period of correspondence.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174
    edited February 28
    Pulpstar said:
    Having said that this list is completely out of line with this article from January this year:

    https://lookaftermybills.com/water/what-is-the-average-water-bill-in-the-uk/

    2018 -> 2024
    Thames Water: £440 Thames £456
    Severn Trent: £502 Severn Trent £419
    Northumberland Water: £539 Northumbrian £391
    Yorkshire Water: £562 Yorkshire £446
    Northern Ireland Water: £596
    Scottish Water: £600
    Anglian Water: £619 Anglian £492
    Dwr Cymru Welsh Water: £636 Dŵr Cymru Welsh Water £499
    United Utilities: £652 United Utilities £443
    Southern Water: £673 Southern £439
    Wessex Water: £728 Wessex £504
    South West Water: £943 South West £476

    Hafren Dyfrdwy £372

    South West reducing from £943 to £476 looks particularly unbelievable. I know we'd expect a general rise but one of these articles is very wrong.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767
    Carnyx said:

    On the subject of HMRC...

    I'm seeing a guy today, a bit 'alternative', he earns only £10-£12k pa as a self-employed jobbing craftsman (his choice). Living very simply he asks for and gets no state help.

    But he's in hoc to HRMC for a £2k for failing to file two years tax returns on-line properly. It appears he completed the forms (zero tax to pay) but failed to press 'submit', not really being very IT literate.

    He's got no way of paying the fines but they're threatening court action.

    Interesting challenge.

    IIRC it used to be the case that hmrc couldn't fine you more than the tax you owed, to preclude precisely this kind of case, which offends against natural justice. But the current government got rid of that rule, while its wealthy members pay lower effective tax rates than nurses. Get these people out of government.
    That's exactly what I had wondered about - so thanks for clearing that up. I'd had a similar problem with my late mother's tax, not done for 5 years, and she hadn't told me, though in her case ill health and the fact that she was owed back tax for 4 of the 5 probably did the trick to get her off the fine in those years before the rulke change.

    I did notice this in the Grsaun earlier. Probably not unrelated, the income has to be made up somehow:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/18/hmrc-investigations-of-wealthy-tax-dodgers-halve-in-five-years
    I wonder which group funds the Tory party?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239
    Roger said:

    stodge said:

    TOPPING said:

    Taz said:

    Foxy said:

    As long as the Cons fail to see the multiple issues ordinary people face in just getting by daily then they will continue to decline, and going "full Trump" is certainly not going to arrest that decline. Susan Hall is an awful, harsh sounding candidate and will fail. In the GE they may hang on in a couple of seats, but it's not going to be good for them at all.

    The longer they leave it the worse it will be for them.

    The Tories hate everything about London: it's young university educated population, its cosmopolitan neighbourhoods, its liberality, its impoverished poor, its culture. They offer nothing to alleviate the hardship of the housing situation, or to support the people. Why would they get votes here with their neanderthal nativism?
    I hate London's homophobia

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/londoners-less-tolerant-of-gay-or-transgender-children-polls-reveals-10119183.html
    I see those of us in the North, and the Scots, are the most accepting. Listening to some people here you'd think us northerners were a mass of hatred and bigotry and the south were the enlightened ones.

    Facts versus opinion/guess.
    According to @Foxy, the bigotry is:

    "mostly down to homophobia and transphobia amongst some socially conservative communities overrepresented in London demographics"

    Whatever that means.
    What it means is the stereotype of Londoners as metropolitan, tolerant and liberal is as false as the notion provincial England is socially conservative if not reactionary.

    There are intolerant people in London just as there are intolerant people everywhere. There are strong socially conservative communities in many parts of the capital - among devoutly religious groups including Christian evangelicals, Muslims, Hindus, Jews etc for example. Of course you don't have to be religious or have strong personal faith to be socially conservative not does having faith mean you can't be socially liberal but without wishing to over-generalise..

    All this does (rightly) is challenge preconceptions or misconceptions about London. Newham for example has fewer atheists and agnostics than almost anywhere else. Faith is very important - which faith is another matter and I wouldn't want to overstate this but evangelical churches are noticeable here with a new one for the Latin American community having recently opened off the Barking Road.
    I would put it down to education first by a long way then probably age and a good first indicator is a vote for 'Leave'. A short Dutch documentary taken in Clacton. They seem to be mostly white English......

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUej2pWLUUc
    Yeah of course. The relative homophobia of Londoners is all about Clacton

    And nothing to do with Tower Hamlets

    How fucking blind can you be?
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767
    kamski said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:

    tlg86 said:

    Nigelb said:
    That's not the killer point the Guardian thinks it is.
    That's either a poor attempt at humour, or an exceedingly stupid take on the article.
    Nobody who is sensible thinks Khan is under the thumb of Islamists. We don't need to be told this to prove it.

    Previously, we've been told about the far-right threats to Khan, but now it's convenient, they tell us about the Islamist threats.
    It's not the first time we're hearing about them though, is it?

    For example, https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-65656310 is from May 23

    "Then there are people who follow Daesh (Islamic State) and al-Qaeda who think you can't be a Muslim and a westerner, I get it from both sides in relation to the death threats."

    Or you can go back a lot further:
    https://www.thepinknews.com/2013/02/18/labour-mp-sadiq-khan-receives-death-threats-for-supporting-same-sex-marriage/
    This is what is so stupid about the Tory narrative, it gives credence to the view that a Muslim can't be a westerner. They're singing from the Al qaeda hymn book.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239
    How does someone as stupid as @Roger even have a vote?

    How can you be so stupid you do not realise that the Islamification of London has made it in, in places, a much more intolerant, homophobic, and anti-Semitic place?

    My hope is that Brexit has denied him a vote, so he can only exercise a vote in, lol, Marine le Pen’s France
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,950
    Selebian said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
    You tend to hear the strongest views on this from the shoutiest most opinionated posters. I would assume the majority view is Russia bad, Hamas bad, Israel (Netanyahu) bad, Ukraine good.
    I work on the 'everyone bad' mindset. Brings a simply clarity to geopolitics. In any conflict, the bad fight the bad (as fighting is bad) and it's no surprise that the bad support the bad or - being bad - are bad friends and fail to support the bad or, indeed, turn round and support the other bad side :wink:
    Working out which is the LEAST bad occupies many of my waking hours.
  • Rishi looks genuinely angry. Like Boris angry.
  • nico679nico679 Posts: 6,275
    Utterly pathetic from Sunak . What a horrid little man .
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627
    Leon said:

    How does someone as stupid as @Roger even have a vote?

    How can you be so stupid you do not realise that the Islamification of London has made it in, in places, a much more intolerant, homophobic, and anti-Semitic place?

    My hope is that Brexit has denied him a vote, so he can only exercise a vote in, lol, Marine le Pen’s France

    You are Lee Anderson and I claim my £5.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 5,286
    God, what a dirty, ill-tempered PMQs exchange.
  • Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    Agree, apart from a "lol" for the "future profits" bit.
  • londonpubmanlondonpubman Posts: 3,639
    Pro_Rata said:

    God, what a dirty, ill-tempered PMQs exchange.

    Just a warm up for the General Election!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,799
    It was explained several times in the 1992 election program that was linked to a few threads ago that London had more marginal seats than any other area in the country. How things have changed!
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 42,814

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    Agree, apart from a "lol" for the "future profits" bit.
    Has anyone made the connection with the header? (Apols. if they have.)

    It seems pretty potent to me.
  • CleitophonCleitophon Posts: 480
    The yelling and screaming and discourse in parliament from the tories is a national embarrassment. Seriously, this is no way to conduct national debate. And now Hoyle is toothless to intervene because he is fighting to stay in his post 🤷 wow.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,897
    Leon said:

    How does someone as stupid as @Roger even have a vote?

    How can you be so stupid you do not realise that the Islamification of London has made it in, in places, a much more intolerant, homophobic, and anti-Semitic place?

    My hope is that Brexit has denied him a vote, so he can only exercise a vote in, lol, Marine le Pen’s France

    You might enjoy 'How They broke Britain' by James O'Brien. Very well written very funny and as good a reflection on UK politics as you could find. Much better than his LBC slots which are also good
  • Pro_Rata said:

    God, what a dirty, ill-tempered PMQs exchange.

    Starmer missed the obvious play. He threw Jezbollah out. Why won't Sunak bin off Truss?
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,220
    Foxy said:

    Leon said:

    How does someone as stupid as @Roger even have a vote?

    How can you be so stupid you do not realise that the Islamification of London has made it in, in places, a much more intolerant, homophobic, and anti-Semitic place?

    My hope is that Brexit has denied him a vote, so he can only exercise a vote in, lol, Marine le Pen’s France

    You are Lee Anderson and I claim my £5.
    Relying on documentaries for the views of a community is equally stupid.

    I recall having a coffee by Hungerford Bridge by Waterloo, one afternoon. A film crew was making a piece on public views on a political topic. I think it was civil partnerships. They would pick someone coming over the bridge, and start filming them. Once the person started saying something reasonable, they would stop filming. Most people were "whatever, fine with me".

    Once in a while they got a nutter and filmed a nice long piece.

    It was in the very early days of smart phones. I started filming them filming. The lady running the show came over and demanded I stop. Apparently me filming them filming people was harassment.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208

    I read earlier this morning that the Sun is likely to come out for labour

    It doesn't appear so from this

    https://twitter.com/kelvmackenzie/status/1762745100826767690?t=sjY17HVcnxX3Ise-PnnnCg&s=19

    Murdoch has a choice then.

    Back Starmer or back a loser. He won't like doing either. I can see him burying all election coverage on about page 14.

    Poor Rupert. Couldn't happen to a nicer chap.
    The power balance between government and media has shifted towards government across the western world. Which isn't always a good thing. Starmer doesn't owe Murdoch any favours.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 15,767
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

    Quite a revealing poll on the depth of anti-muslim opinions and other eyebrow raising views among Tory members. Scary to think that this extremist group put some of the last few prime ministers in office with no input from the wider electorate.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 4,155

    148grss said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    Unfortunately, Thatcher read Going Postal and decided to turn it into party policy. Which explains the state of our infrastructure.
    Well as Going Postal was written in 2004 that seems a bit unlikely.

    What it does illustrate, once again, is just how sharp a commentator Pratchett was. Just as with the Vimes's Boot theory. That literary snobs dismissed one of Britain's greatest writers says more about them than anything else. I heard a great story from his later years, of paying a bill of multiple 10's of thousands, with some loose money from a pocket, such was his wealth at that point.
    I did my undergraduate and post graduate dissertations on Pratchett - if you or any PBers want to fund my PhD (in this world of telling art students that they have low value degrees), I'd happily take your grant monies (although you may dislike my verbose writing style and my views of Pratchett as a good leftist satirist). I would argue that (alongside the theory people) Pratchett is the most influential writer on my political thought.
    If I win the lottery then I'd gladly fund a PhD on Pratchett and Politics.
    One of my MRes proposals was looking at tyrants in literature, going through the history of tyranny and when it was acceptable and unacceptable and discussing neoliberalism and tyranny in Discworld - with a clear focus on Vetinari and Ankh Morpork. But I swapped that out for discussing the nature of the posthuman person - discussing how Pratchett creates personhood beyond the mere human with posthumanist ethics and stories.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,799

    Pro_Rata said:

    God, what a dirty, ill-tempered PMQs exchange.

    Just a warm up for the General Election!
    Just abuse sent back and forward. Nothing that remotely resembled a question and even less that looked like an answer.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,656
    Looks like Angela Raynor has been up to something dodgy. Manor from heaven for SKS who has been wanting her out for years

    https://twitter.com/MarkVipond/status/1762556464780992909
  • MightyAlexMightyAlex Posts: 1,660
    edited February 28
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
    Thames Water is effectively bust without a bailout, so 'shares' are currently worth nothing.

    The numbers are that there is around £14bn of debt, much of which was incurred to pay past dividends on both shares and bonds. You're asking billpayers to pay for the debt.

    Wiping out the bondholders by way of administration would be a salutary warning to others not to take the piss in the future.
    Who owns Thames Water's debt?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,799

    Looks like Angela Raynor has been up to something dodgy. Manor from heaven for SKS who has been wanting her out for years

    https://twitter.com/MarkVipond/status/1762556464780992909

    Meh, you are entitled to elect what is your main residence in any tax year. I don't think she has done anything wrong here. Had she rented it out it might have been different but there is no evidence of that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,897
    DavidL said:

    Looks like Angela Raynor has been up to something dodgy. Manor from heaven for SKS who has been wanting her out for years

    https://twitter.com/MarkVipond/status/1762556464780992909

    Meh, you are entitled to elect what is your main residence in any tax year. I don't think she has done anything wrong here. Had she rented it out it might have been different but there is no evidence of that.
    That has always been my understanding. Seems like someone's out to get her with poorly researched material.
  • DavidL said:

    Looks like Angela Raynor has been up to something dodgy. Manor from heaven for SKS who has been wanting her out for years

    https://twitter.com/MarkVipond/status/1762556464780992909

    Meh, you are entitled to elect what is your main residence in any tax year. I don't think she has done anything wrong here. Had she rented it out it might have been different but there is no evidence of that.
    But the sense of desperation from the Tories pushing this non-story is palpable.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239
    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    How does someone as stupid as @Roger even have a vote?

    How can you be so stupid you do not realise that the Islamification of London has made it in, in places, a much more intolerant, homophobic, and anti-Semitic place?

    My hope is that Brexit has denied him a vote, so he can only exercise a vote in, lol, Marine le Pen’s France

    You might enjoy 'How They broke Britain' by James O'Brien. Very well written very funny and as good a reflection on UK politics as you could find. Much better than his LBC slots which are also good
    If you are young pretty female and fond of miniskirts, or indeed lesbian or gay and keen on holding hands, there are many places in Britain, sadly, where you will now find a much more hostile atmosphere than would have been the case 20 years ago

    And the reason is Islam

    it would be a wonderful world if all British Muslims were as liberal, amusing and tolerant as our own @TSE but sadly that is not the case
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,479

    Looks like Angela Raynor has been up to something dodgy. Manor from heaven for SKS who has been wanting her out for years

    https://twitter.com/MarkVipond/status/1762556464780992909

    Another PB fuckwit who cannot even manage to spell her name correctly
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,220

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Nigelb said:

    148grss said:

    There's a great part in Pratchett's Going Postal where a character describes the con the men who own the Grand Trunk are playing - I don't have the book in front of me, but it's along the lines of: you see an asset that could turn a profit that is currently owned by people who care about the asset as a system and not an asset and therefore do not have a head for business. As someone who wants to turn a profit, you approach these men with no heads for business and say you want to invest in that asset. They agree, always wanting money to spend tinkering in their sheds to improve the systems they care about, and sign your documents. Eventually, you run out of that first bit of money, so when they say they're happy to invest again you sign again without question. But this time you've sold more than a 50% share in the asset, so you no longer own it, and now people with heads for business are in charge and they don't care if the system works - they care that it makes money. So maintenance stops, because that's a cost that doesn't return short term profit, and the system is always pushed to breaking point to make the most money off of it. They bought it dirt cheap, they suck it dry whilst running it into the ground, and they'll also likely make a profit selling it off afterwards to another rube or to the state who need the system to exist for the functioning of society.

    Anyway, I give this extremely long preface (apologies as always @TOPPING) to share this unrelated news:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-higher-bills-lower-fines-avoid-bailout-report-claims-somerset-gigafactory-bridgend-tata-us-gdp-business-live

    It's an interesting point when the asset is a monopoly public utility like Thames Water.

    Thames Water lobbying government to let it increase bills by 40%
    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/feb/28/thames-water-lobbying-government-bills-dividends-fines-breaches-taxpayer-bailout

    It is not obvious to me that it's a good deal for the UK to force Thames customers effectively to bail out a commercial entity which has previously extracted massive dividends from the business, and which, without the deal which the owners are lobbying for, is effectively bankrupt.

    We should put in into administration, and government should take control of the business. The shareholders and bondholders would take massive losses, but that would serve as a useful warning to the commercial owners of UK public service utilities (often overseas) who have been taking the piss for decades.

    Government can probably borrow more cheaply anyway, and the necessary price rises for the needed infrastructure improvement would be significantly less. And any future profits would remain in the UK.
    An alternative fair plan could be to treat the bill a bit like a share issue.

    So let them increase it by the 40% they need but half the company goes to the customers who pay the bills and existing shareholders get diluted.
    The problem with that idea is that many of the customers will immediately sell their shares to the existing shareholders, to make a quick buck.
    As you can do with any shareholding that pays an ongoing dividend.

    @noneoftheabove plan looks equitable to me.
    Not to me.
    It still involves either the billpayers - or the taxpayer - bailing out £14bn or so of majority foreign owned bad debt
    In exchange for shares. It depends on the numbers I suppose, what would their shares be worth vs extra they pay, as long as that can be reasonably matched it seems fair.
    Thames Water is effectively bust without a bailout, so 'shares' are currently worth nothing.

    The numbers are that there is around £14bn of debt, much of which was incurred to pay past dividends on both shares and bonds. You're asking billpayers to pay for the debt.

    Wiping out the bondholders by way of administration would be a salutary warning to others not to take the piss in the future.
    Who owns Thames Water's debt?
    Pension funds, domestic and international. Including a big chunk to the UK Universities pension (comedy) scheme.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,068
    edited February 28
    Selebian said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
    You tend to hear the strongest views on this from the shoutiest most opinionated posters. I would assume the majority view is Russia bad, Hamas bad, Israel (Netanyahu) bad, Ukraine good.
    I work on the 'everyone bad' mindset. Brings a simply clarity to geopolitics. In any conflict, the bad fight the bad (as fighting is bad) and it's no surprise that the bad support the bad or - being bad - are bad friends and fail to support the bad or, indeed, turn round and support the other bad side :wink:
    I wonder if Terry Pratchett had a saying for such an occasion :)
  • kamskikamski Posts: 5,189
    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/historic-moment-as-sinn-fein-fm-stands-for-god-save-the-king-at-windsor-park/a873868716.html

    I remember when I was a nipper Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine were mentioned in the same breath.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 19,897

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

    Quite a revealing poll on the depth of anti-muslim opinions and other eyebrow raising views among Tory members. Scary to think that this extremist group put some of the last few prime ministers in office with no input from the wider electorate.

    Extraordinary. Next time you meet a Tory Party Member I'd suggest you give them a wide berth
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,220
    viewcode said:

    Selebian said:

    TimS said:

    TOPPING said:

    Selebian said:

    TOPPING said:

    Apparently Israel is going to supply early warning systems for detecting drone and missile attacks to Ukraine. A consequence for Russia siding with Hamas.

    That will be a total head fuck, taking sides-wise, for just about everyone on PB.
    Russia bad. Hamas bad. That's simple enough, isn't it?

    I know Israel are now supporting Ukraine, but hey, we've dealt with such mindfucks as the French supporting Ukraine. We can handle this. :wink:
    Russia bad. Hamas noble, oppressed, democratically-elected freedom fighters seems to be the norm for many if not most PB posters.
    You tend to hear the strongest views on this from the shoutiest most opinionated posters. I would assume the majority view is Russia bad, Hamas bad, Israel (Netanyahu) bad, Ukraine good.
    I work on the 'everyone bad' mindset. Brings a simply clarity to geopolitics. In any conflict, the bad fight the bad (as fighting is bad) and it's no surprise that the bad support the bad or - being bad - are bad friends and fail to support the bad or, indeed, turn round and support the other bad side :wink:
    I wonder if Terry Pratchett had a saying for such an occasion :)
    ‘if you want to understan’ an enemy, you gotta walk a mile in his shoes. Den, if he’s still you enemy, at least you’re a mile away and he’s got no shoes.’
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 18,354
    Roger said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

    Quite a revealing poll on the depth of anti-muslim opinions and other eyebrow raising views among Tory members. Scary to think that this extremist group put some of the last few prime ministers in office with no input from the wider electorate.

    Extraordinary. Next time you meet a Tory Party Member I'd suggest you give them a wide berth
    Do you have any top tips for identifying them from a distance?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    edited February 28
    Leon said:

    Roger said:

    Leon said:

    How does someone as stupid as @Roger even have a vote?

    How can you be so stupid you do not realise that the Islamification of London has made it in, in places, a much more intolerant, homophobic, and anti-Semitic place?

    My hope is that Brexit has denied him a vote, so he can only exercise a vote in, lol, Marine le Pen’s France

    You might enjoy 'How They broke Britain' by James O'Brien. Very well written very funny and as good a reflection on UK politics as you could find. Much better than his LBC slots which are also good
    If you are young pretty female and fond of miniskirts, or indeed lesbian or gay and keen on holding hands, there are many places in Britain, sadly, where you will now find a much more hostile atmosphere than would have been the case 20 years ago

    And the reason is Islam

    it would be a wonderful world if all British Muslims were as liberal, amusing and tolerant as our own @TSE but sadly that is not the case
    I suggest you come up to The Village in Manchester one night, all the times my friends have suffered homophobic abuse at The Village/and or leaving it is from white people.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 119,620
    edited February 28

    Roger said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

    Quite a revealing poll on the depth of anti-muslim opinions and other eyebrow raising views among Tory members. Scary to think that this extremist group put some of the last few prime ministers in office with no input from the wider electorate.

    Extraordinary. Next time you meet a Tory Party Member I'd suggest you give them a wide berth
    Do you have any top tips for identifying them from a distance?
    They wear fantastic footwear.
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362

    Harry has lost his high court case re his security when visiting the UK

    Oh Dear
    How Sad
    Never Mind
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,627

    Roger said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

    Quite a revealing poll on the depth of anti-muslim opinions and other eyebrow raising views among Tory members. Scary to think that this extremist group put some of the last few prime ministers in office with no input from the wider electorate.

    Extraordinary. Next time you meet a Tory Party Member I'd suggest you give them a wide berth
    Do you have any top tips for identifying them from a distance?
    If the party conference is anything to go by, silver hair, walking stick, hearing aid and in desperate need of a nap...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,027
    edited February 28
    After watching PMQs nobody is doing anything to enhance the reputation of the HOC and it is clear that this can only change, though I would not hold my breath, by an early GE

    It seems the SNP led vonc on the Speaker, notwithstanding Plaid endorsing it, is fizzing out and time to move on on this

    And on Angela Rayner I fail to understand what she is accused of
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 50,220
    kamski said:

    https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/historic-moment-as-sinn-fein-fm-stands-for-god-save-the-king-at-windsor-park/a873868716.html

    I remember when I was a nipper Northern Ireland and Israel/Palestine were mentioned in the same breath.

    I am reminded of the Saki story which ends thus -


    "There are more ways of killing a cat than by choking it with cream," he quoted, "but I'm not sure," he added "that it's not the best way."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,174
    Taz said:

    Harry has lost his high court case re his security when visiting the UK

    Oh Dear
    How Sad
    Never Mind
    I think this one is much more important (financially & otherwise) than the papers one, or would that be wrong ?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 55,239
    Roger said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

    Quite a revealing poll on the depth of anti-muslim opinions and other eyebrow raising views among Tory members. Scary to think that this extremist group put some of the last few prime ministers in office with no input from the wider electorate.

    Extraordinary. Next time you meet a Tory Party Member I'd suggest you give them a wide berth
    Islam is absolutely a threat to our liberal, tolerant way of life

    I know you are not the brightest penny in the purse (Millfield, advertising, stifled laughter, etc) but the sad fact is the lovely tolerant amusing Muslims you befriended in the Lebanon 30 years ago during your tampon advertising days are no longer representative of Islam as whole. I dearly wish they were. I loved that tolerant easygoing Islam. It was fabulous and I too experienced it

    But the Islam being exported right now - from Saudi, Iran, etc - is intolerant, misogynistic, gloomy, oppressive and crude. It is more like Trump’s America than John F Kennedy’s America

    REVISE YOUR PRIORS
  • Pulpstar said:

    Taz said:

    Harry has lost his high court case re his security when visiting the UK

    Oh Dear
    How Sad
    Never Mind
    I think this one is much more important (financially & otherwise) than the papers one, or would that be wrong ?
    Looks as if it will curtail his visits especially with Megan
  • TazTaz Posts: 14,362

    The yelling and screaming and discourse in parliament from the tories is a national embarrassment. Seriously, this is no way to conduct national debate. And now Hoyle is toothless to intervene because he is fighting to stay in his post 🤷 wow.

    We'd have a balanced, rational and reasonable parliament with no yelling and screaming if it wasn't for those pesky Tories.
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